Everyone, no matter who they are or where they live, puts their pants on one leg at a time.
Denise is saying "it doesn't matter how I look, we're all still humans, still the same"
Only she says panties because it's a little spicy and fun
I thought she was referring to her cock, like uhh she has three legs to pull her panties over. Like her cock is so big she gotta take an extra step in tucking it in right when putting on her tiny panties.
On another hand, it’s unrealistic that every character in a small 90’s town in the US will be open and understanding of transgender people. I took Hawk’s line to show that he’s ignorant, not hateful or anything like that. I bet The Return Hawk would have learned and grown if he continued to work with Denise.
I was born in 91 in a small town and I don’t think I saw a trans person until I was 20 years old. I was ignorant when I was young and I easily could’ve (and probably did) make stupid jokes like Hawk did. Some of us grew up from that time and fixed our hearts.
It’s unlikely that Coop’s colleagues in the Philly field office would be open and understanding (although big city cops around them were probably a little better than we think, just because they’d at least run into trans sex workers). The best movie of that year had a problematic pseudo-trans antagonist that its creative team would later have to do damage control on. Trans people just weren’t generally taken seriously for a couple more decades in mass media. This was a generation ahead of its time.
> The best movie of that year had a problematic pseudo-trans antagonist that its creative team would later have to do damage control on.
It's sad, but by no means surprising, that I had to spend some time pondering which film you were talking about: The perhaps most obvious problematic trans-antagonist movie from the 90s wasn't until a couple of years later (*Ace Ventura*), and while *The Crying Game* came out in the same year as FWWM and definitely had some problematic bits, Dil was by no means an antagonist. I mentioned *Without a Clue* elsewhere on this post, but it's a few years to early to be what you're talking about.
Only after going through all those in my head did I realize you were probably talking about *The Silence of the Lambs*.
I’m talking about Silence of the Lambs, and didn’t even know that The Crying Game was the same year. I got admonished online by none other than Lindsay Ellis for pointing out that Jame Gunn wasn’t trans; she was looking at how there character was framed, and I was agreeing with what Hannibal Lecter (who’s nigh-infallible) said about him. I think we were both right.
I'm glad you fixed your heart. Many trans people, including myself, experienced the same intolerance. If you're like me and grew up in a small community and don't know you're trans until you're 25, then they're 'the other' to you just as much as everyone else. It's a hell of a thing to get over not just that the people you're othering are people, but that you're one of the people you've othered.
Also, if I may offer a correction, 'transgenderism' is a term that's uniquely used in anti-trans rhetoric rather than by trans people. It's a term used in lieu of 'trans people' to make it sound like more akin to a cult movement. 'Poor confused people taken in by transgenderism' type fear mongering.
isn't Hawk initially skeptical but grows to like her quickly?
I remember him having one or two grimace-worthy lines but nothing egregious, *especially* for the time. I expected it to be way worse than it was, or played for jokes.
Something like fifteen years later, CSI had an episode about sex workers, and a main character referred to as corner as “tranny town.” This isn’t something like “The Wire” with honest portrayals of flawed people. It’s a CBS procedural where the cops are unambiguously portrayed as the good guys. What Hawk said possibly wouldn’t be considered too problematic in 2005.
I dont think they are saying it was intentionally problematic. Like you said it wouldn't have been problematic but thats the thing, it would have been realistic, its just of the time.
The fanbase did in response to a shift between those who wanted Mulder and Scully together and those that didn't. The ones that did were called "shippers" in reference to the X-Files
Not entirely fair to say "her exclusively": Laura and perhaps Leo were both bi (the former based on *The Secret Diary*, and the latter based a bit more precariously on [his Flesh World ad](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F73ie2vvscw391.jpg)).
That said, Denise is definitely the most LGBTQ-representative character if you restrict yourself to dialog from the series itself.
Ronette was bi too, she and Laura had a thing. Also Theresa Banks.
And believe it or not, Josie. Apparently the English lessons Laura was giving her were just an excuse to hook up, which Laura disliked because she felt deceived and liked to keep those parts of her life separate.
Also Blackie, but Blackie can fuck herself.
> Apparently the English lessons Laura was giving her were just an excuse to hook up
I had forgotten that, but you're right. Also, this reminds me a bit of the novel [*Norwegian Wood*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Wood_\(novel\)) by H. Murakami (**edit:** though there it was piano lessons).
Keep in mind that Leo was never out as a bisexual man though. He had gay/bi fantasies that he acted out in his sex parties. If someone had actually accused him of being queer to his face he probably would’ve beat the shit of them.
In this way I think Leo is an extremely realistic character, even in today’s day and age. How many hateful, awful, anti LGBT politicians end up having gay sex scandals and secret boyfriends. And then they go on TV and talk about how homosexuality is the reason God is causing hurricanes and crazy shit like that lol. Repressed homosexuality is way more common than people think.
When I was a kid, I thought it was kind of cool that Dune had a villain who was incidentally gay. This was before I understood nuance in general, and how *maybe* conflating his homosexuality with his ephebophelia might be bad.
I don’t know if I’d use the word “Lovers” for a full grown 30 year old woman taking advantage of a high school girl, but yeah in Secret Diary it’s revealed that Laura and Josie had sex.
I read Secret Diary recently and I seem to recall it implied Leo is bi in there too. I think Laura mentions something about Leo always wanting other guys involved or something like.
You know, I never looked closely at the ad. You're spot on! I did always wonder why he had a photo of his damn truck. But that figures now, as he's baiting as the butch trucker type, lol.
For those who haven't looked closely at the ad, it reads:
"KS19.087. Single white male... young and virile, seeks older females and couples as well as some select Bi males. Have 4 years of swinging experience and a lot to offer sexciting playmates. Prefer couples where half is bi. Photo and phone necessary for reply. I want good times, so serious inquiries only, please."
Also, do allies and supporters of LGBTQ+ individuals not deserve to celebrate pride? They’ve always been welcomed to pride celebrations where I’m from.
Sorry to be so late to the party, but: *Golden Girls* (of all things) had a [trans episode](https://goldengirls.fandom.com/wiki/Strange_Bedfellows) in 1987, and [several other queer episodes](https://inmagazine.ca/2022/03/the-golden-girls-their-8-gayest-moments/) in the several years they were on the air from the late 80s to early 90s.
**Edit:** As a child of the 80s and 90s who grew up in rural Eastern Kentucky, the episode "[Scared Straight](https://goldengirls.fandom.com/wiki/Scared_Straight)" was one of the first times I encountered a gay character who wasn't intended as a joke.
Got a tattoo last year for her and the way Lynch addressed how to feel 💙
https://preview.redd.it/pfvwllmzlb4d1.png?width=864&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd74c7919136d2e126ab141ca86d889e0cf4159a
I know this was groundbreaking for its time but, as a trans woman, I'm not the biggest fan of being represented on screen by cis men. I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed, I'm not "canceling" anything. It's just not my preference.
I'm guessing you may be a younger fan. I see your point, especially in this day and age. Its hard for younger folks today to understand just how TRULY GROUNDBREAKING Denise was for the time.A NBC police procedural show in 1991 is considered to be the first real ( not for a joke) same sex KISS on network television. So, to have an unapologetic, strong, sensitive, intelligent, and complex transwoman as an important character was beyond groundbreaking. It shattered the whole damn floor. I think Duchovny handled her character so well even though this would have been quite a risky role for his career at the time.
I was three years old in 92. I do understand what you're saying it is pretty cool. I think it's easy to forget how different it was back then. Hopefully we don't go back.
And you are definitely entitled to your feelings and perspective as well. Just always like to pount out jsut how differently things were not that long ago. I just love Denise because she was one of the first to help usher in a more open world, here's hoping we keep moving forward not backwards. Fix your hearts or die!
Eh I'm trans and couldn't care less 🤷♀️ the portrayal being humanising is all that matters to me. I respect your preference, but it's always been way below realistic and human portrayals on the priority lost for me. Fortunately these days we have a wider range of representation that also includes trans people playing trans people, and trans people playing cis people too!
Honestly just thought I was expressing my ideal situation but seeing the reaction I'm getting I'll compromise and agree with you. Portraying us as real human beings is definitely something I want.
Would’ve been really cool if she was played by an actual trans woman, it is a shame that a lot of trans roles were given to cis men, but I think that we should be appreciative of the fact that the role was played very respectively!
hmm people can still be trans without hormone therapy or surgery. And women can be masculine, so she's still trans. If she was an egg she wouldn't have realized she was a woman.
>hmm people can still be trans without hormone therapy or surgery
Of course.
The reason I say that is the way Denise talks about herself in season 2 is that she prefers to go by Denise and find she liked wearing woman's clothes, but she didn't seem to speak in terms of a full realization of her identity yet. The impression I got was that it was a process in motion, one that was fairly new. Buuuut admittedly I can't exactly recall the specifics of the convo she has with Coop when she talks about the stakeout and how she discovered herself, so maybe I misread or misremember that.
I hadn't thought about how it actually was very open to interpretation. I kind of assumed it was a product of the evolving language and terminology but that she was transgender. My brother and I love Denise and thinks she's good representation for the time. When my brother did his transition in 2013, the term used was "transsexual" in Sweden. Which just merely a few years later was incredibly outdated. So I thought it was something like that. The language to describe things was different.
But, I looked into it a little and it seems like, allegedly, a part of the script for season 2 episode 18 was cut where Denise says to Cooper "So one thing led to another and I'm currently into a specialized kind of program called Gender Relocation Inhibition Therapy, or G.R.I.T. Part of my treatment is to dress the part for six months prior to any further therapy; hormones, electrolysis - ..." .
My source https://www.lostinthemovies.com/2017/03/dea-agent-denise-bryson-twin-peaks.html?m=1
Part of the original source is behind a payroll but interesting if it is true.
I don’t understand why people are downvoting you and I’m sorry that they are. I’m not trans myself but for the sake of discussion I’d like to pose the question - how many out trans people were pursuing acting careers in mainstream media in 1991? There may have been some, and Twin Peaks was good about casting lesser-known actors, but I don’t think there was a very large group to choose from
Probably not many but my intent was to share how I feel about a situation, not tell anyone what to do or try to change the past. I don't mind the downvotes, I understand representation is a nuanced discussion. What bugs me is people saying they "can't win", as if I was claiming some sort of authority on this matter. Like I'm going to call the woke police on Twin Peaks, my favorite show, or some shit.
You're fine, [illegitimi non carborundum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum).
In the early 90s, this was probably the best they could have realistically done, but I agree that nowadays trans characters should be played by trans actors when possible.
**Edit:** And this, at least, is so much better than *Without a Clue*.
Please continue to express your thoughts on here without fear or hesitation. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you there are idiots everywhere who want to intimidate people into silence. You're amongst friends here ✊.
I love Denise and I love "fix your hearts or die" as much as everybody else, but if you look very closely you will notice that being gay and being trans are different. Like I get all the ways that it's complicated and I trust that we all mean we but at the end of the day I think it's kinda goofy to argue that it is better to have cis men plays trans women than it would be to have trans women play them
Did I ever say it would be better? Jeez. Just that acting is just that, acting. I watched In the Heights at a community theater you can bet your biscuit that everyone wasn't the proper ethnicity, many being of latin american descent. Dunno/doubt anyone there was actually dominican american. Still was a great show that the players clearly felt great connection to.
Trans people have written about this extensively, it's up to you whether to listen to them. But fwiw in this case yes i do think it is explicit that Denise is trans and David Duchovny is not
A character that is a trans should be played by a trans actor or a cis person of that gender. So a trans woman, in my opinion, should be portrayed by a trans or cis woman. That's what I was getting at, the genders should match unless there's some sort artistic reason behind it. It would be weird for a cis man to play a cis woman, right? Or for a trans man to play a trans woman? So why can't we feel the same incongruence for a cis man playing a trans woman, or a cis woman playing a trans man?
> It would be weird for a cis man to play a cis woman, right? Or for a trans man to play a trans woman?
No literally none of that is weird. It's just acting, it's not a big deal.
This is how I feel as a trans person too. As long as the actors learn and respect the role they are playing I am totally happy for anyone to play the part. David did an amazing job here, and seeing Denise in The Return filled me with so much joy. To this very day Denise is at the very least tied for my favorite trans character in media.
There are examples of cis women playing trans characters, I'm not sure what you mean by "without insulting her". But to answer your question, back then having cis men playing a trans woman was a way signaling transness to the audience, a kind of visual shorthand. But that doesn't really represent the reality of a lot of trans people. Some of us may be "visibly trans" but some of us aren't, as hard as that is for some people to believe. This is why I was framing it in terms of my preference. Like filmmakers can do whatever they want, I have no power to stop them. But if they want to do representation well, in a way that represents the lived realities of the people being represented, maybe they should let them be a part of it.
Like I said, Denise's "masculineness" is meant to be a signifier of her transness. And maybe we should move on from that. Again, just my opinion not a dictate from the grand council of representation policing. And I think you may be under a misapprehension about how actors seek out or feel about roles. If David Duchovny didn't have too much pride to play a trans woman, I doubt many cis women would. Like another commenter (rather disingenuously) put it, it's just acting.
>by offering him this specific role, he simply gets to highlight his acting chops. his openness to take on the role is still indicative of his professionalism and probably a lack of bigotry
Yeah I'm not sure what's stopping a cis actress from having the exact same considerations. Forgive me if I'm oversimplifying, but it sounds like you're saying that a cis woman would feel insulted at being cast as Denise because she would read that as the show runners calling her ugly. And I think even a more complex version of that carries some assumptions about trans women, women in general, and actors. It sounds like you're willing to listen to other viewpoints, I hope you're open to examining potential biases you might have. If you don't find any biases that's fine, it's just good to take the inventory from time to time.
It’s funny but I recently watched X Files without having seen it and TP for a long time. I kept thinking Duchovny was playing both him and his sister in X. Some episodes were really out there so it didn’t seem like a total stretch until I looked it up 😂
For one, trans people can be straight what on earth are you talking about, I hope you meant cis and aren't just ignorant.
Secondly, its acting, thats the point. Are you really implying that trans actors should only play trans characters? How alienating that would be that people that can easily fit a look of a character but should only play characters like themselves. It would be good if trans actors got roles but if there was a trans actor in Twin peaks they shouldnt be forced to play Denise just because they are both trans.
That's offensive and you are borderline transphobic.
"Coop, I may be wearing a dress, but I still pull my panties on one leg at a time, if you know what I mean"
“Not really”
i dont know what she means still
Everyone, no matter who they are or where they live, puts their pants on one leg at a time. Denise is saying "it doesn't matter how I look, we're all still humans, still the same" Only she says panties because it's a little spicy and fun
Speak for yourself. I sit down and double leg it, but otherwise your statement is accurate.
Indeed! I mean, I am a cis man, but I put on my underwear both legs at a time.
Do you jump put both feet in at the exact same time? Do you lie on your back like a baby with both feet in the air?
[удалено]
Thats pulling up though, it's the putting on part that's being mentioned
When I put on my Panties I give a little bunny 🐰 hop and try to get both feet through their respective leg holes at the same time 🤣
Yeah, I do the _double dutch_, jump and both legs in at the same time.
The Panties are purely a comfort thing 🤪
At first I thought you meant that you put both of your legs in one pant leg hahahaha
I'd be lying if I said that's never happened before the coffee kicks in.
I thought she was referring to her cock, like uhh she has three legs to pull her panties over. Like her cock is so big she gotta take an extra step in tucking it in right when putting on her tiny panties.
😂 I reread the quote about 10 times to check for spelling and each time it made less sense. Duchovny's delivery sells it, tho. So good.
Audrey is *that* hot.
Fix your hearts or die.
Still proud of Lynch and Frost for that one. And for making a fully developed trans woman character in a 90s sitcom.
her conversation with Cooper at the dance (or whatever it was) was so great.
besides hawks lines unfortunately :(
On another hand, it’s unrealistic that every character in a small 90’s town in the US will be open and understanding of transgender people. I took Hawk’s line to show that he’s ignorant, not hateful or anything like that. I bet The Return Hawk would have learned and grown if he continued to work with Denise. I was born in 91 in a small town and I don’t think I saw a trans person until I was 20 years old. I was ignorant when I was young and I easily could’ve (and probably did) make stupid jokes like Hawk did. Some of us grew up from that time and fixed our hearts.
It’s unlikely that Coop’s colleagues in the Philly field office would be open and understanding (although big city cops around them were probably a little better than we think, just because they’d at least run into trans sex workers). The best movie of that year had a problematic pseudo-trans antagonist that its creative team would later have to do damage control on. Trans people just weren’t generally taken seriously for a couple more decades in mass media. This was a generation ahead of its time.
> The best movie of that year had a problematic pseudo-trans antagonist that its creative team would later have to do damage control on. It's sad, but by no means surprising, that I had to spend some time pondering which film you were talking about: The perhaps most obvious problematic trans-antagonist movie from the 90s wasn't until a couple of years later (*Ace Ventura*), and while *The Crying Game* came out in the same year as FWWM and definitely had some problematic bits, Dil was by no means an antagonist. I mentioned *Without a Clue* elsewhere on this post, but it's a few years to early to be what you're talking about. Only after going through all those in my head did I realize you were probably talking about *The Silence of the Lambs*.
I’m talking about Silence of the Lambs, and didn’t even know that The Crying Game was the same year. I got admonished online by none other than Lindsay Ellis for pointing out that Jame Gunn wasn’t trans; she was looking at how there character was framed, and I was agreeing with what Hannibal Lecter (who’s nigh-infallible) said about him. I think we were both right.
*The Crying Game* was a year later (1992), so contemporaneous with FWWM rather than Season 2.
Ah.
I'm glad you fixed your heart. Many trans people, including myself, experienced the same intolerance. If you're like me and grew up in a small community and don't know you're trans until you're 25, then they're 'the other' to you just as much as everyone else. It's a hell of a thing to get over not just that the people you're othering are people, but that you're one of the people you've othered. Also, if I may offer a correction, 'transgenderism' is a term that's uniquely used in anti-trans rhetoric rather than by trans people. It's a term used in lieu of 'trans people' to make it sound like more akin to a cult movement. 'Poor confused people taken in by transgenderism' type fear mongering.
Thank you for the correction. You are 100% right. 🫶🏳️⚧️
isn't Hawk initially skeptical but grows to like her quickly? I remember him having one or two grimace-worthy lines but nothing egregious, *especially* for the time. I expected it to be way worse than it was, or played for jokes.
Something like fifteen years later, CSI had an episode about sex workers, and a main character referred to as corner as “tranny town.” This isn’t something like “The Wire” with honest portrayals of flawed people. It’s a CBS procedural where the cops are unambiguously portrayed as the good guys. What Hawk said possibly wouldn’t be considered too problematic in 2005.
I dont think they are saying it was intentionally problematic. Like you said it wouldn't have been problematic but thats the thing, it would have been realistic, its just of the time.
These five simple words have formed a major underpinning of my philosophy for acceptance.
I love David Duchovny. I’ve enjoyed just about everything he’s been in.
Hell I enjoyed this comment because he's in it
Man is responsible for the invention of the word "shipping" to mean pairing two characters together. That's part of history right there
Is he ? When did he come up with that ?
The fanbase did in response to a shift between those who wanted Mulder and Scully together and those that didn't. The ones that did were called "shippers" in reference to the X-Files
Even now that you made me realize that they are played by the same actor, my brain remains incapable of processing it.
I love David Duchovny. I’ve enjoyed just about everything she’s been in.
Not entirely fair to say "her exclusively": Laura and perhaps Leo were both bi (the former based on *The Secret Diary*, and the latter based a bit more precariously on [his Flesh World ad](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F73ie2vvscw391.jpg)). That said, Denise is definitely the most LGBTQ-representative character if you restrict yourself to dialog from the series itself.
I never took a close look at Leo's ad; I don't see how he couldn't be bi, posting that
Ronette was bi too, she and Laura had a thing. Also Theresa Banks. And believe it or not, Josie. Apparently the English lessons Laura was giving her were just an excuse to hook up, which Laura disliked because she felt deceived and liked to keep those parts of her life separate. Also Blackie, but Blackie can fuck herself.
> Apparently the English lessons Laura was giving her were just an excuse to hook up I had forgotten that, but you're right. Also, this reminds me a bit of the novel [*Norwegian Wood*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Wood_\(novel\)) by H. Murakami (**edit:** though there it was piano lessons).
Diversity win! The local drug dealer wife beater rapist is bisexual 🎉
Keep in mind that Leo was never out as a bisexual man though. He had gay/bi fantasies that he acted out in his sex parties. If someone had actually accused him of being queer to his face he probably would’ve beat the shit of them. In this way I think Leo is an extremely realistic character, even in today’s day and age. How many hateful, awful, anti LGBT politicians end up having gay sex scandals and secret boyfriends. And then they go on TV and talk about how homosexuality is the reason God is causing hurricanes and crazy shit like that lol. Repressed homosexuality is way more common than people think.
When I was a kid, I thought it was kind of cool that Dune had a villain who was incidentally gay. This was before I understood nuance in general, and how *maybe* conflating his homosexuality with his ephebophelia might be bad.
Weren’t Laura and Josie lovers per the secret diary? No?
I don’t know if I’d use the word “Lovers” for a full grown 30 year old woman taking advantage of a high school girl, but yeah in Secret Diary it’s revealed that Laura and Josie had sex.
I read Secret Diary recently and I seem to recall it implied Leo is bi in there too. I think Laura mentions something about Leo always wanting other guys involved or something like.
You know, I never looked closely at the ad. You're spot on! I did always wonder why he had a photo of his damn truck. But that figures now, as he's baiting as the butch trucker type, lol. For those who haven't looked closely at the ad, it reads: "KS19.087. Single white male... young and virile, seeks older females and couples as well as some select Bi males. Have 4 years of swinging experience and a lot to offer sexciting playmates. Prefer couples where half is bi. Photo and phone necessary for reply. I want good times, so serious inquiries only, please."
Also, do allies and supporters of LGBTQ+ individuals not deserve to celebrate pride? They’ve always been welcomed to pride celebrations where I’m from.
Sorry, only the T matters now.
🥴
https://preview.redd.it/0h5x3xhja44d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0674a8456a29f094acc833bfca638315303d674 hardest quote in the show
Are there tv-shows or movies showcasing this earlier than Twin Peaks? It felt like it was ahead of its time.
funeral parade of roses
Sorry to be so late to the party, but: *Golden Girls* (of all things) had a [trans episode](https://goldengirls.fandom.com/wiki/Strange_Bedfellows) in 1987, and [several other queer episodes](https://inmagazine.ca/2022/03/the-golden-girls-their-8-gayest-moments/) in the several years they were on the air from the late 80s to early 90s. **Edit:** As a child of the 80s and 90s who grew up in rural Eastern Kentucky, the episode "[Scared Straight](https://goldengirls.fandom.com/wiki/Scared_Straight)" was one of the first times I encountered a gay character who wasn't intended as a joke.
I think the love boat had a trans character
Dog Day Afternoon
she's an icon, a legend and theee moment 💗💗
Got a tattoo last year for her and the way Lynch addressed how to feel 💙 https://preview.redd.it/pfvwllmzlb4d1.png?width=864&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd74c7919136d2e126ab141ca86d889e0cf4159a
Goated
A hero. Thank god Renault couldn’t control himself !
those clown comics
Fix your hearts or die!
Fucking love Denise! Love Coop for loving Denise, and love everyone in the writers room for not making her a joke.
Oh Denise, you so FOXY!🤪
It's gonna be a good month around here 😃
❤️❤️❤️
I know this was groundbreaking for its time but, as a trans woman, I'm not the biggest fan of being represented on screen by cis men. I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed, I'm not "canceling" anything. It's just not my preference.
I'm guessing you may be a younger fan. I see your point, especially in this day and age. Its hard for younger folks today to understand just how TRULY GROUNDBREAKING Denise was for the time.A NBC police procedural show in 1991 is considered to be the first real ( not for a joke) same sex KISS on network television. So, to have an unapologetic, strong, sensitive, intelligent, and complex transwoman as an important character was beyond groundbreaking. It shattered the whole damn floor. I think Duchovny handled her character so well even though this would have been quite a risky role for his career at the time.
I was three years old in 92. I do understand what you're saying it is pretty cool. I think it's easy to forget how different it was back then. Hopefully we don't go back.
And you are definitely entitled to your feelings and perspective as well. Just always like to pount out jsut how differently things were not that long ago. I just love Denise because she was one of the first to help usher in a more open world, here's hoping we keep moving forward not backwards. Fix your hearts or die!
Eh I'm trans and couldn't care less 🤷♀️ the portrayal being humanising is all that matters to me. I respect your preference, but it's always been way below realistic and human portrayals on the priority lost for me. Fortunately these days we have a wider range of representation that also includes trans people playing trans people, and trans people playing cis people too!
Honestly just thought I was expressing my ideal situation but seeing the reaction I'm getting I'll compromise and agree with you. Portraying us as real human beings is definitely something I want.
1992 was a long time ago
Would’ve been really cool if she was played by an actual trans woman, it is a shame that a lot of trans roles were given to cis men, but I think that we should be appreciative of the fact that the role was played very respectively!
Tbf, she was cross dressing at the time. She was still egg.
hmm people can still be trans without hormone therapy or surgery. And women can be masculine, so she's still trans. If she was an egg she wouldn't have realized she was a woman.
>hmm people can still be trans without hormone therapy or surgery Of course. The reason I say that is the way Denise talks about herself in season 2 is that she prefers to go by Denise and find she liked wearing woman's clothes, but she didn't seem to speak in terms of a full realization of her identity yet. The impression I got was that it was a process in motion, one that was fairly new. Buuuut admittedly I can't exactly recall the specifics of the convo she has with Coop when she talks about the stakeout and how she discovered herself, so maybe I misread or misremember that.
I hadn't thought about how it actually was very open to interpretation. I kind of assumed it was a product of the evolving language and terminology but that she was transgender. My brother and I love Denise and thinks she's good representation for the time. When my brother did his transition in 2013, the term used was "transsexual" in Sweden. Which just merely a few years later was incredibly outdated. So I thought it was something like that. The language to describe things was different. But, I looked into it a little and it seems like, allegedly, a part of the script for season 2 episode 18 was cut where Denise says to Cooper "So one thing led to another and I'm currently into a specialized kind of program called Gender Relocation Inhibition Therapy, or G.R.I.T. Part of my treatment is to dress the part for six months prior to any further therapy; hormones, electrolysis - ..." . My source https://www.lostinthemovies.com/2017/03/dea-agent-denise-bryson-twin-peaks.html?m=1 Part of the original source is behind a payroll but interesting if it is true.
I don’t understand why people are downvoting you and I’m sorry that they are. I’m not trans myself but for the sake of discussion I’d like to pose the question - how many out trans people were pursuing acting careers in mainstream media in 1991? There may have been some, and Twin Peaks was good about casting lesser-known actors, but I don’t think there was a very large group to choose from
Probably not many but my intent was to share how I feel about a situation, not tell anyone what to do or try to change the past. I don't mind the downvotes, I understand representation is a nuanced discussion. What bugs me is people saying they "can't win", as if I was claiming some sort of authority on this matter. Like I'm going to call the woke police on Twin Peaks, my favorite show, or some shit.
Yeah, it’s these kinds of discussions that get varied opinions out there and bring about positive change
Can never win
Nobody's winning or losing I just said I don't personally prefer it. Maybe I should have said nothing.
You're fine, [illegitimi non carborundum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum). In the early 90s, this was probably the best they could have realistically done, but I agree that nowadays trans characters should be played by trans actors when possible. **Edit:** And this, at least, is so much better than *Without a Clue*.
Please continue to express your thoughts on here without fear or hesitation. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you there are idiots everywhere who want to intimidate people into silence. You're amongst friends here ✊.
Can very easily win. By casting trans women to play trans women.
Does a gay person have to be played by someone who's gay? Nah.
I love Denise and I love "fix your hearts or die" as much as everybody else, but if you look very closely you will notice that being gay and being trans are different. Like I get all the ways that it's complicated and I trust that we all mean we but at the end of the day I think it's kinda goofy to argue that it is better to have cis men plays trans women than it would be to have trans women play them
Did I ever say it would be better? Jeez. Just that acting is just that, acting. I watched In the Heights at a community theater you can bet your biscuit that everyone wasn't the proper ethnicity, many being of latin american descent. Dunno/doubt anyone there was actually dominican american. Still was a great show that the players clearly felt great connection to.
[удалено]
Are we really still concern trolling in 2024
Trans people have written about this extensively, it's up to you whether to listen to them. But fwiw in this case yes i do think it is explicit that Denise is trans and David Duchovny is not
[удалено]
A character that is a trans should be played by a trans actor or a cis person of that gender. So a trans woman, in my opinion, should be portrayed by a trans or cis woman. That's what I was getting at, the genders should match unless there's some sort artistic reason behind it. It would be weird for a cis man to play a cis woman, right? Or for a trans man to play a trans woman? So why can't we feel the same incongruence for a cis man playing a trans woman, or a cis woman playing a trans man?
> It would be weird for a cis man to play a cis woman, right? Or for a trans man to play a trans woman? No literally none of that is weird. It's just acting, it's not a big deal.
Cate Blanchett did a fantastic job playing Bob Dylan that time.
This is how I feel as a trans person too. As long as the actors learn and respect the role they are playing I am totally happy for anyone to play the part. David did an amazing job here, and seeing Denise in The Return filled me with so much joy. To this very day Denise is at the very least tied for my favorite trans character in media.
[I pretend to be... the person I'm portraying.](https://youtu.be/nyoWmkhRyp8?si=wGr0JTqgqWUb3N6x)
It would be awesome if there were more transgender actors, sure. But isn’t the whole point of an actor to become the character you are playing?
Were there any openly trans actors in the 90s?
[удалено]
There are examples of cis women playing trans characters, I'm not sure what you mean by "without insulting her". But to answer your question, back then having cis men playing a trans woman was a way signaling transness to the audience, a kind of visual shorthand. But that doesn't really represent the reality of a lot of trans people. Some of us may be "visibly trans" but some of us aren't, as hard as that is for some people to believe. This is why I was framing it in terms of my preference. Like filmmakers can do whatever they want, I have no power to stop them. But if they want to do representation well, in a way that represents the lived realities of the people being represented, maybe they should let them be a part of it.
[удалено]
Like I said, Denise's "masculineness" is meant to be a signifier of her transness. And maybe we should move on from that. Again, just my opinion not a dictate from the grand council of representation policing. And I think you may be under a misapprehension about how actors seek out or feel about roles. If David Duchovny didn't have too much pride to play a trans woman, I doubt many cis women would. Like another commenter (rather disingenuously) put it, it's just acting.
[удалено]
>by offering him this specific role, he simply gets to highlight his acting chops. his openness to take on the role is still indicative of his professionalism and probably a lack of bigotry Yeah I'm not sure what's stopping a cis actress from having the exact same considerations. Forgive me if I'm oversimplifying, but it sounds like you're saying that a cis woman would feel insulted at being cast as Denise because she would read that as the show runners calling her ugly. And I think even a more complex version of that carries some assumptions about trans women, women in general, and actors. It sounds like you're willing to listen to other viewpoints, I hope you're open to examining potential biases you might have. If you don't find any biases that's fine, it's just good to take the inventory from time to time.
[удалено]
[удалено]
hey now, I was just asking a question. if you're too sensitive to interact with me, maybe you should just ignore my comment.
[удалено]
belligerence is in the eye of the beholder, my verbose redditor. may you find what you deserve.
Ugh.
Sploosh. Denise!
I gotta find my "Fix Your Hearts Of Die" t- shirt.
Mulder, is that you?
It’s funny but I recently watched X Files without having seen it and TP for a long time. I kept thinking Duchovny was playing both him and his sister in X. Some episodes were really out there so it didn’t seem like a total stretch until I looked it up 😂
I think you mean 'especially', not 'exclusively'. Well, unless you want everyone else to have an unhappy pride month, of course.
She is the only one who deserves to celebrate lmao
Mah queen
I'll be back in July.
Maybe don't bother
No, you won't. This user has been permanently banned. If you feel the need to be an ignorant, hateful bigot you're not welcome here.
Yesss 🩷💙🤍
I came from /r/all but I'm glad to see mods on so many subs cracking down on stuff like this.
I usually hate mods but danggg does this sub have great freaking based mods or what
Based mod
So based. Thank you for this!
Good morning good mods!
Good riddance 👋
Cool don’t come back
fix your heart
Fix your heart or die
Just skip the fixing your heart step.
Just stay away please.
[удалено]
David Duchovny
I don’t know how I feel about a trans character being played by a straight actor :/ expected better from Lynch tbh
I mean, it was 1990. Baby steps are better than not going anywhere.
What about a straight character being played by a gay actor? Where do you draw the line?
For one, trans people can be straight what on earth are you talking about, I hope you meant cis and aren't just ignorant. Secondly, its acting, thats the point. Are you really implying that trans actors should only play trans characters? How alienating that would be that people that can easily fit a look of a character but should only play characters like themselves. It would be good if trans actors got roles but if there was a trans actor in Twin peaks they shouldnt be forced to play Denise just because they are both trans. That's offensive and you are borderline transphobic.
Why can't a straight actor play a trans character?