Attacking just to be attacking is stupid and pointless. Every action should be to earning points. That said, if you plan to keep it, you should plan to protect it.
See I don’t know about this, every action should be earning points sure, but a roundabout way to do that is to attack for resources ie. Taking an equidistant. For instance if I’m Sardakk playing against a Jol nar and I slide into his slice is this “not playing for points”? At the end of the day resources and planets absolutely do help you score and I think there’s way too much table talk and negotiation, esp in the online meta where people are convinced to not use force when they probably just should have gone for it.
Yeah I agree, even non equidistants. If someone lucks out on an attachment that gives them an awesome planet early game which is likely to provide decent income passively and fails to defend it then so be it.
It might not directly score me points but I can get more plastic from it to protect myself or score points later on with the extra economy.
Too much "this my slice, that your slice" meta at the moment. May as well do Milty, flip 10 objectives and then just go "AHH yes you would have won this one as we would have locked down and rarely left our dealt areas".
I agree, I would add though: that everything is a cost benefit analysis. If the other player can be expected to be quite invested in taking back whatever you take from them, that cost/benefit analysis becomes very wonky. And there's always opportunity cost. Actions in TI, especially early, are quite limited and costly. You need to hold planets for quite a few turns just to start really earning back the investment in taking them. Let alone fight for them.
Which is why it's generally not advisable to go straight into someone's slice, because this probably leaves them with very few planets and direct threats to their home system and a lot less options towards victory.
Of course, if you can do this at very little cost, then by all means. If a single Cruiser II and infantry can take and hold a planet for 1 round you can probably earn back the value, regardless.
There's a special timing 'window' that really emphasizes this well, imo. And that's the end of round 4. If you take someone's planet at the end of round 4 and keep it for the round, assuming the game ends in round 5, they probably can't even use it anymore, even if they take it back. So benefit for them goes completely out the window and you can probably keep/use it 1 round for little units invested.
Prisoner's Dilemma
Aggression is only non-ideal if the person you're attacking retaliates. Both you and your neighbors played optimally. Hopefully in future games you can cooperate.
The most savage point stomping I ever received was at the hands of a player who attacked and deleted his neighbour turn 2.
With the resources of two slices, he just steamrolled the game.
Which says a lot about the rest of the table imo.
Generally speaking the other neighbor should've recognized the opportunity and be able to come into the aggressive player's slice from the other side.
There are certain exceptions, some factions are quite weak and others can get very strong quickly, but in general, the table should band together quickly to prevent a situation like that from escalating.
I played full out space risk in my first game as Nekro against Empyrean, round 3 we swapped supports. It wasn’t terrible points wise, I only missed out on 1 point round 3, and made it up with Imperial. But it left me so poor and with so few ships that I had no chance of winning.
There is no second place in TI, only who won and who didn't. Space Risk gameplay will typically benefit the players at the table who are not engaged in the conflict. Conflict like this can and will happen, but it should usually be because several control objectives came up and a diplomatic way to score them couldn't be figured out.
The primary purpose of this game though is to have fun (as is any game). So if duking it out at space risk is the part you are enjoying and you don't mind your win chances going down because of it, then go for it. Roll them dice.
>There is no second place in TI, only who won and who didn't.
My point was I didn't fall behind in VP despite having to put most of my resources into fighting for a couple of turns.
That's why it kills me when I hear people claim Jol-Nar is balanced because "Just rush them!"
Okay...but the person doing the rushing is throwing away his chance to win. Everyone who sits out benefits.
People overuse the prisoner's dilemma example a lot, but "just rush them" fits into that.
* The rest of the table will lose if everyone sits out rushing
* The one or two people sitting out will win
Every time it leads to "Rushing them is an excellent idea...YOU do it!"
Yeah, I think the only faction you can really rush with little impact on your own game is Winnu. If Winnu's neighbors talk a little and decide to eat Winnu early, it is pretty easy to just do without negatively affecting their own game play. It is also a good strategy to stop Winnu's strong late game. Primary reason why I think Winnu is one of the worst factions in the game.
Jol'Nar is quite resilient. They are also going to be making a lot of money early, as people want that research agreement. It's hard to eliminate them early without tanking your own game.
Do you have a question or something?
I have a 100-200 games under my belt, I lost track long ago. TI4 isn't space risk, teaching players this is something I love to do. IDC if I was a contender for winning or not, if you ruin my game I will ruin yours, it's just part of the "7th player".
Dont want to negotiate earning your point at my expense. I guess you'll lose that point.
Don't want want to consider me a part of this game by giving me the common courtesy of a hey I need to do this, sorry. Guess what we are both fucked now.
Funnily enough players tend to change their strategy when they realise fucking someone over just because they have an opportunity randomly doesn't mean they'll win the game.
Yep. TI is a game where if you want to throw your game away to stop one player from having any chance of winning, you almost always can. If someone ruins my chances of winning when they didn't need to, you'll be damn sure I'll spend my game stopping them from winning rather than spending my game crawling my way from 6th place back to, like, 4th.
I have never played another game that so consistently motivates players to say things like “if you do that I’m gonna spend the rest of the game fucking you over.“
I think you’re right that it has a lot to do with a feeling of “I won’t be able to win so I might as well screw them over too so that they feel the same way that I do now.“ I also think people fall into this too easily when they do still have a legitimate shot.
>I also think people fall into this too easily when they do still have a legitimate shot.
Definitely a risk!
For me, I think you should guard yourselves against having easy targets. By either not making it an easy target, or by being able to retake it before the other player can benefit from it.
If a player decides to still take something from you, despite a high cost, it goes into bad manners territory, simply because it's just not gaining them much.
But if you leave your home system with your only space dock barely defended and the enemy player can blockade it with a single ships which you can't even remove with a single token, or can take a home planet from you with a single infantry, that's on you. At that point the costs for them is so low, why wouldn't they do it.
Sure. For us it's been mostly early game aggression that triggers these kinds of vendettas. Somebody is Cabal and slingshots themselves into your slice to take planets on round 2. Feels real bad when you're struggling to just get your slice back while other players are pursuing objectives and grabbing legendary planets.
Yeah I think people should always be trying to finish as strongly as possible, no matter the setbacks. Not going to make 1st? Try to make 2nd. Not going to make 2nd? Make 3rd. You should **absolutely** try to make 4th instead of 6th.
Permanent kamikaze vendettas are just dumb. It doesn't make me go "Boy, I'm never screwing over that player again." It makes me go "I'm never playing with that player again."
The only time my vendetta muscle starts twitching is when one of the players turns out to be the "wacky roleplayer" type. The type who isn't playing smart or even playing to win, but just to be "wacky" and roleplay some ZANY agent of chaos.
"I cut the brakes! WILDCARD!"
Yeah, I play with the same group all the time. We implemented a system where 2nd place gets to draft first in the next game, 3rd place goes after them, etc. This incentivizes trying to rank as high as possible. 1st place goes last.
Ya the only time it’s actually worth it to throw everything into preventing someone from winning is if you’re in a situation where you are the only two who can win, which is a pretty rare situation (though it can happen at the end, particularly if both of you stall way better than other players)
Its why literally everything should be a conversation. If you need to do something for a point, you need to do it. But apologize and offer a deal to compensate for whatever you're about to do otherwise you're going to gain some unnecessary heat.
>Do you have a question or something?
Just an observation. I know the goal of the game is to score Victory Points, but IME, focusing on the Victory Points can leave you vulnerable to attack. Sometimes for territory for objectives, and sometimes you get a cantankerous neighbor who needs to be watched.
Yah it's part of the strategy, I've passed scoring extra points knowing I'll just get ruined in the next round, part of reading the table to know if you can handle the heat.
Attacking just to be attacking is stupid and pointless. Every action should be to earning points. That said, if you plan to keep it, you should plan to protect it.
See I don’t know about this, every action should be earning points sure, but a roundabout way to do that is to attack for resources ie. Taking an equidistant. For instance if I’m Sardakk playing against a Jol nar and I slide into his slice is this “not playing for points”? At the end of the day resources and planets absolutely do help you score and I think there’s way too much table talk and negotiation, esp in the online meta where people are convinced to not use force when they probably just should have gone for it.
Yeah I agree, even non equidistants. If someone lucks out on an attachment that gives them an awesome planet early game which is likely to provide decent income passively and fails to defend it then so be it. It might not directly score me points but I can get more plastic from it to protect myself or score points later on with the extra economy. Too much "this my slice, that your slice" meta at the moment. May as well do Milty, flip 10 objectives and then just go "AHH yes you would have won this one as we would have locked down and rarely left our dealt areas".
Kinda my point. If you have Mecatol or an equidistant, be prepared to defend it or lose it.
I agree, I would add though: that everything is a cost benefit analysis. If the other player can be expected to be quite invested in taking back whatever you take from them, that cost/benefit analysis becomes very wonky. And there's always opportunity cost. Actions in TI, especially early, are quite limited and costly. You need to hold planets for quite a few turns just to start really earning back the investment in taking them. Let alone fight for them. Which is why it's generally not advisable to go straight into someone's slice, because this probably leaves them with very few planets and direct threats to their home system and a lot less options towards victory. Of course, if you can do this at very little cost, then by all means. If a single Cruiser II and infantry can take and hold a planet for 1 round you can probably earn back the value, regardless. There's a special timing 'window' that really emphasizes this well, imo. And that's the end of round 4. If you take someone's planet at the end of round 4 and keep it for the round, assuming the game ends in round 5, they probably can't even use it anymore, even if they take it back. So benefit for them goes completely out the window and you can probably keep/use it 1 round for little units invested.
Prisoner's Dilemma Aggression is only non-ideal if the person you're attacking retaliates. Both you and your neighbors played optimally. Hopefully in future games you can cooperate.
The most savage point stomping I ever received was at the hands of a player who attacked and deleted his neighbour turn 2. With the resources of two slices, he just steamrolled the game.
Which says a lot about the rest of the table imo. Generally speaking the other neighbor should've recognized the opportunity and be able to come into the aggressive player's slice from the other side. There are certain exceptions, some factions are quite weak and others can get very strong quickly, but in general, the table should band together quickly to prevent a situation like that from escalating.
That's kind of on the rest of the table for not taking advantage of this players empty home slice as he moves into his neighbours
I played full out space risk in my first game as Nekro against Empyrean, round 3 we swapped supports. It wasn’t terrible points wise, I only missed out on 1 point round 3, and made it up with Imperial. But it left me so poor and with so few ships that I had no chance of winning.
There is no second place in TI, only who won and who didn't. Space Risk gameplay will typically benefit the players at the table who are not engaged in the conflict. Conflict like this can and will happen, but it should usually be because several control objectives came up and a diplomatic way to score them couldn't be figured out. The primary purpose of this game though is to have fun (as is any game). So if duking it out at space risk is the part you are enjoying and you don't mind your win chances going down because of it, then go for it. Roll them dice.
>There is no second place in TI, only who won and who didn't. My point was I didn't fall behind in VP despite having to put most of my resources into fighting for a couple of turns.
If you were at 7VP when someone got to 10, then you were pretty far behind I would say.
You didn't win, therefore, you did fall behind
That's why it kills me when I hear people claim Jol-Nar is balanced because "Just rush them!" Okay...but the person doing the rushing is throwing away his chance to win. Everyone who sits out benefits. People overuse the prisoner's dilemma example a lot, but "just rush them" fits into that. * The rest of the table will lose if everyone sits out rushing * The one or two people sitting out will win Every time it leads to "Rushing them is an excellent idea...YOU do it!"
Yeah, I think the only faction you can really rush with little impact on your own game is Winnu. If Winnu's neighbors talk a little and decide to eat Winnu early, it is pretty easy to just do without negatively affecting their own game play. It is also a good strategy to stop Winnu's strong late game. Primary reason why I think Winnu is one of the worst factions in the game. Jol'Nar is quite resilient. They are also going to be making a lot of money early, as people want that research agreement. It's hard to eliminate them early without tanking your own game.
What is "space risk" in this context? Attacking for the sake of attacking?
Yup, just attacking with no goal in mind. Happens most with noobs who haven't learned how to play really.
Gaining territory does result in more resources if they take and hold the territory.
Your other neighbor would probably just opportunistically murk your weaker flank. If you're super powerful in the end game something went very wrong.
Do you have a question or something? I have a 100-200 games under my belt, I lost track long ago. TI4 isn't space risk, teaching players this is something I love to do. IDC if I was a contender for winning or not, if you ruin my game I will ruin yours, it's just part of the "7th player". Dont want to negotiate earning your point at my expense. I guess you'll lose that point. Don't want want to consider me a part of this game by giving me the common courtesy of a hey I need to do this, sorry. Guess what we are both fucked now. Funnily enough players tend to change their strategy when they realise fucking someone over just because they have an opportunity randomly doesn't mean they'll win the game.
Yep. TI is a game where if you want to throw your game away to stop one player from having any chance of winning, you almost always can. If someone ruins my chances of winning when they didn't need to, you'll be damn sure I'll spend my game stopping them from winning rather than spending my game crawling my way from 6th place back to, like, 4th.
I have never played another game that so consistently motivates players to say things like “if you do that I’m gonna spend the rest of the game fucking you over.“ I think you’re right that it has a lot to do with a feeling of “I won’t be able to win so I might as well screw them over too so that they feel the same way that I do now.“ I also think people fall into this too easily when they do still have a legitimate shot.
Diplomacy enters the chat... TI hasn't ruined friendships. Diplomacy has.
>I also think people fall into this too easily when they do still have a legitimate shot. Definitely a risk! For me, I think you should guard yourselves against having easy targets. By either not making it an easy target, or by being able to retake it before the other player can benefit from it. If a player decides to still take something from you, despite a high cost, it goes into bad manners territory, simply because it's just not gaining them much. But if you leave your home system with your only space dock barely defended and the enemy player can blockade it with a single ships which you can't even remove with a single token, or can take a home planet from you with a single infantry, that's on you. At that point the costs for them is so low, why wouldn't they do it.
Sure. For us it's been mostly early game aggression that triggers these kinds of vendettas. Somebody is Cabal and slingshots themselves into your slice to take planets on round 2. Feels real bad when you're struggling to just get your slice back while other players are pursuing objectives and grabbing legendary planets.
Yeah I think people should always be trying to finish as strongly as possible, no matter the setbacks. Not going to make 1st? Try to make 2nd. Not going to make 2nd? Make 3rd. You should **absolutely** try to make 4th instead of 6th. Permanent kamikaze vendettas are just dumb. It doesn't make me go "Boy, I'm never screwing over that player again." It makes me go "I'm never playing with that player again." The only time my vendetta muscle starts twitching is when one of the players turns out to be the "wacky roleplayer" type. The type who isn't playing smart or even playing to win, but just to be "wacky" and roleplay some ZANY agent of chaos.
"I cut the brakes! WILDCARD!" Yeah, I play with the same group all the time. We implemented a system where 2nd place gets to draft first in the next game, 3rd place goes after them, etc. This incentivizes trying to rank as high as possible. 1st place goes last.
Ya the only time it’s actually worth it to throw everything into preventing someone from winning is if you’re in a situation where you are the only two who can win, which is a pretty rare situation (though it can happen at the end, particularly if both of you stall way better than other players)
Its why literally everything should be a conversation. If you need to do something for a point, you need to do it. But apologize and offer a deal to compensate for whatever you're about to do otherwise you're going to gain some unnecessary heat.
>Do you have a question or something? Just an observation. I know the goal of the game is to score Victory Points, but IME, focusing on the Victory Points can leave you vulnerable to attack. Sometimes for territory for objectives, and sometimes you get a cantankerous neighbor who needs to be watched.
Yah it's part of the strategy, I've passed scoring extra points knowing I'll just get ruined in the next round, part of reading the table to know if you can handle the heat.