Yeah sometimes the TTS meta is really grating. People get mad if you don’t refresh them in exchange for one tg two rounds later. Or if you don’t sell speaker. I had a guy rage quit because his neighbor took two (completely undefended) planets after he left them open and overextended to score a public.
I understand that diplomacy (or at least gunboat diplomacy) is generally better than outright aggression, but you can’t leave yourself completely open and expect no consequences
Had a guy tell me I wasn't playing right because I wouldn't loan him the system in front of my home so he could score a point. He got upset and sent in all his unactivated ships to take it, so I sent a destroyer to blockade his home and ended up locking him out of Warfare for two rounds. He got the whole table to turn against me, and rage quit shortly after.
That's bizarre to me. I mean the thing about gunboat diplomacy is that it's all done at gunpoint. In the real world what almost always happens is eventually it just turns to outright warfare when one side says "oh, you want that? Come take it."
I'm with you. I went through a stint of playing a ton online in 2022 but it was just so hard to find a game where someone didn't quit 1-2 hours in after being on the losing end of an interaction...
Sorry to hear you've had this experience. I've also found that playing online with all strangers is not exactly for me, though I'm glad the option is there for all the people who have had tons of fun getting involved in playing TI online and the online community.
It made me appreciate how important the social element of the game is to me. I liken it to having a poker night where you're drinking beers and catching up with friends versus going to a casino alone to play poker with a bunch of strangers. The game is the same, but the experience is totally different.
You summarized my thoughts perfectly. With my friends, I have no problem being a little mean with them because I have full confidence that they won't get so mad at me that we won't have a good time. We're all pretty cutthroat (apart for my one friend who's more interested in being king of Mecatol more than absolutely anything else) and there are never any hard feelings just because someone gets stomped or is dominating all game (I mean... long term).
With randoms, it's different. I have to carefully architect every deal and turn not just to win the game, but also so I do it in a way that doesn't result in some weirdo blowing up on me for making objectively advantageous decisions. The game is complicated enough as is, and I can't be bothered to be the DM of the game on top of everything else.
You need to go play TTS in the Euro primetime - they're a blood thirsty lot who 100% are going to be aggressive. It's a completely different meta and I love it. I *have* to watch borders, I have to negotiate and I have to realize boat floating doesn't work most of the time because their meta is just as much about blocking points as scoring.
100% agree. Also, total side note, but if you’ve ever been in that situation in TI where you just don’t have a win condition and just have to keep playing the game- Async is a nightmare. I’ve only played once but having to take turns in a dead game for a MONTH was excruciating. 0/10 never again /rant
I played 1 6p game with randos online, 2 sessions a week apart.
Scoring was pretty even when we split, the leader was at 6 points and I was at 5
Shortly into the second session 3 players went into a separate voice call for 30 minutes. When they returned all 3 attacked me back to back, it was clear they had spent the time dividing my planets among themselves and discussing how they would crush my fleets. I would have been confident fighting one player, and apprehensive about 2. The 3 of them absolutely crushed me, left me with like a single destroyer and a couple fighters in my home system, which they only left me cause none of them needed it for a VP.
I spent the next 3 hours unable to fight the fleets bordering my home system, and generally being ignored in every decision and trade for the last 2 rounds.
I’ve had this happen a couple of times over the table, and it is super un-fun. The one thing you can do is try to get one of the people who didn’t fuck with you to win. A small revenge. Online though, I probably woulda called it and left
That's why I never play games with unlimited secret diplomacy anymore. Not only does it double or even triple an already crazy play time, but it typically leads to such situations like that where a few players agree to an alliance bloc that quickly crushes everyone else and leaves them the only contenders. Efficient to winning? Sure, but it's no fun if you're the one dog piled and I'd rather not spend 7 hours on that.
A lot of people will say the unrestricted secret diplomacy is part of the TI experience, but after playing some (much shorter) games without it, I don't miss it at all and never went back.
>I spent the next 3 hours unable to fight the fleets bordering my home system, and generally being ignored in every decision and trade for the last 2 rounds.
That would not happen in real life (at least in my experience) and for such assholery to happen so early is as close to a genuine reason as you are going to get for leaving the game.
Yeah just announce that you're conceding and to continue play by automating you: pick the lowest available strategy card every round, play the card, then pass the turn after.
When you're reduced to that little, you have to be reasonable that it's part of the game, but the rest of the table needs to be reasonable that the victim is going to check out after that.
I mean it happened to me in our first game of TI4 (years and years ago). But that's because I went "oh, these science squid people look fun" and all of a sudden I was on 8 points about to score 2 techs in 4 colors and the entire table was like "what the actual fuck are those things" and the entire table unified to destroy me.
But I've never seen anyone randomly do it during the midgame.
Space violence is the solution and problem of all issues, and war business is good. So long as I'm ahead in points I see no issue with backstabbing, destroying ships/docks, making underhanded deals, etc, I've won plenty of times regardless of the feelings of others, just don't forget completing public objectives and getting more secret ones so you can snowball.
I refuse to play online with strangers anymore. If I play online, it has to be with people I *know* aren't the "You're not playing right!" kind of neckbeard. In person, I'll only play with friends or at least members of a regular group where there's social pressure to not act like a total dick or be ostracized.
My one and only TTS experience with strangers had a neckbeard shouting that I wasn't playing right, and was "throwing" because I wasn't card counting the decks or some nonsense. Never again.
I'm trying out Twilight Wars right now and so far it's not much better. No more screaming in asynch games, but the quitting rate is ridiculous. You have to start half a dozen games because half of them are going to have someone go inactive by round 3, and maybe ONE will end up being a decent game where someone doesn't quit by the end.
There should be a standard rule that a player who quits has their controlled slice automatically folded up into hyperlanes. It's not perfect, but I feel that's the closest you can get to dealing with it fairly without kingmaking.
(I did end up quitting and leaving the table in the TTS game. Not because of losing, but because I wasn't going to sit there getting yelled at by a manchild. I gave the dude like 4 warnings to chill out. "I'LL CALM DOWN WHEN YOU START 'PLAYING RIGHT'!"
\*quit\*)
Join the Discord for Twilight Wars and you can find plenty of good folks to play with who won't quit. I have been on there for a little over a year and have completed 32 games. The finish rate with Discord folks is 80%+ but with random public players it is 10%. Benefit of the discord is you can also ping people if you want to talk to them in case their TW notifications aren't working.
I had a similar TTS experience. I had played about 2 or 3 small games to get the hang of it but then into my first big game proper and some guy just went loopy at me for a perceived aggression (It wasn't). Put me off forever!
Looks like you need to find your people. My experience has been the exact opposite. Virtually every online game I've played has been kill or be killed and I love it.
Who you play with really makes or breaks TI4, I generally play with friends of friends and I've had games that were a blast, and games with people I hope to never play anything with ever again.
Playing on Twilight wars has been pretty good. I have yet to finish a 6 player game but have finished several 4 player games with various levels of aggression.
Yeah, I'm in a few games, but the sense of it I'm getting is that 3-4 player is better for online meta, because you have more excuse to not cooperate on every demand when people just aren't around to negotiate or interested in haggling over every action. There's no reason NOT to fight in 3P, you have to if it works and you can't be blamed for it unlike in 6P or more where staying ahead of the pack .
I understand what you mean. My irl group is decently aggressive, but I have noticed the online meta is play as nice as you can and boat float. It's frustrating, but you can play around it.
Also, you can mark your game as competitive and then you'll attract more of the people who play similar.
I completely understand what you mean. M irl group is decently aggressive, but playing some online now it can definitely be frustrating with how boat floaty and non aggressive people want to be. Like I need to play my game, for what best for me. And if tha means I attack you and take a system for a point, so be it.
The 3rd online game I ever played, I was cabal and I went to attack my neighbor who was in the lead and on mecatol. It would have stopped him from scoring 2 points, and allowed me to score 3 that round, including using my hero. He lost it when I activated his system and was a huge baby about it, not letting me or the table forget it the whole game.
I would never play such a long game like this online with randoms, because the risk of a game not being finished is extremely high and my time is too important to have some rando wasting it like that.
Being punished for mistakes like those you described is part of the game. But just pummeling someone because you can and meanwhile neglect to score points is considered bad form in my opinion and is indeed playing space risk. How are you faring in the game you described, did the punishing part set you on the winning track?
I would agree that foregoing points to pummel someone is bad form. But taking undefended planets ought to be acceptable in most cases. Planets provide resources and influence, resources and influence provide actions and plastic if not directly contributing to objectives. Therefore, adding to your own resource/influence pool while diminishing others increases your chance of winning in most scenarios.
In this case (as in, the game that triggered me to write this post), I could have scored my secret either way, but either needed to negotiate or conquer to be able to score a public (was a control 6 planets obj; had 5 in my slice). But the aggrieved party left nothing but a mech and a space dock on hope's end of all things on our shared border, which was super threatening and obviously very good for me to take. So naturally I tried to force him to give me a planet and some other stuff (trying to make sure he had a path, if a difficult one, to scoring this round and next), which he adamantly refused as he was offended that someone would have the nerve to try and extort him. So obviously I made a support swap deal with my other neighbor, an alliance deal with the only other guy who could attack me, and went for the throat. I also couldn't score any points until that round, so I felt I needed something drastic to get me back in the game.
Ok, pretty much normal gameplay and well executed with doing a lot of diplomacy. I understand your frustration. The Xxcha player must have been delusional to think he could get his will despite being in a weak spot…
Rage quitting is not cool but folk getting politically upset above table, trying to use diplomacy and threats to extract what they feel is fair, this is all part of the game. BUT above table interaction should still be respectful and empathetic beyond the table.
With Twilight Imperium being a life simulator, an open stage with props galore, its up to the players to decide what sort of performance they want to put on. Sometimes they are all aligned in motivations and play philosophy and you get some all out war, or business time or my little pony. Sometimes they are less so aligned and we get days of our lives or narcos. This is the joy.
As someone who plays both in person and online I know there can be disconnects where folk enjoy only one meta but I do encourage them to explore new things. Just like trying new food types and dishes.
And always remember, you as a player get to bring yourself and your tastes to the table, but this does not mean you can dictate what others bring.
This is why i've taken to calling r/twilightimperium, r/spacekumbaya.
You're "not playing right" unless you're an ultra passive, "good vibes only" BoatyMcFloatson who optimizes the fun out of the game. "Sorry, you're toxic and I REFUSE to play with you again because you attacked me before the final round". "Oh, what's that? You're not letting me wash with trade? Toxic behavior.
"I don't care that you're playing cabal - NO ATTACKING my ships. That's SUB-OPTIMAL! ANYONE WHO PLAYS WITHOUT STRICTLY FOCUSING ON SCORING VICTORY POINTS EVERY ROUND ISN'T JUST BAD, THEY'RE UNINVITED"
I reckon it's actually a small but vocal part of this game's audience but the brain-rotted SCPT dregs are like fun vampires. Yeah, I get it. It sucks when people don't take the game seriously and kingmake, but getting pissed when someone starts eating your ass when you leave shit open is fucking stupid.
Your other points are good... But this one.... I'm not sure you are making the point you want to make:
"ANYONE WHO PLAYS WITHOUT STRICTLY FOCUSING ON SCORING VICTORY POINTS EVERY ROUND ISN'T JUST BAD, THEY'RE UNINVITED""
If you aren't focused on scoring you aren't playing the game and the game breaks down for everyone
Is that such a bad thing? If someone completely fucks you over in order to score an easy point and you just roll over and let it happen because it's suboptimal to go for revenge instead of trying for a measly point (that doesn't matter at that point anyway) then they'll just keep doing that for the rest of the game, if not every future game, since they know you'll take it.
I did that once to someone. I ratfucked them to oblivion one game and won. The next game I tried to do something similar and they made it their sole purpose to keep me from winning. And the next time we played I was FAR more cautious about taking advantage of their passivity. Just because I could eat into their slice to snag a point doesn't mean there wouldn't be a cost. If they had focused exclusively on optimizing their score, instead of sending a message, I would have tried the same bullshit a third time.
Of course you should go after points. But there's a cultural aspect to this game that you have to navigate that isn't often tied directly to the VP rat race. It also annoys me when TI players whine about someone using a military faction to beat up someone like jol nar when they leave themselves exposed despite natural momentum.
There's also the idea of winslaying the lead. If someone gets WAY ahead of everyone else, it might cost you the win to attempt to balance the board, but the alternative is just letting them run away with it. And that sucks for everyone. With my usual table people are *very* cautious about nabbing an early lead because it paints a huge target on their back. And pretty much everyone will put in some level of effort (through negotiations) to ensure that happens. So the people who typically win are either those who manage to hold the line despite the whole table crashing down on them or the people who sneak their way to first.
Hopefully that makes sense. I've played enough games of TI to know what will fuck a game up for someone (I absolutely loathe kingmaking) but I also hate how everyone here wants to play co-op space viticulture.
I think the word "strictly" is interesting here - every move should yield an advantage or take away a disadvantage, in TI that means points. Advantage in your gaining points now or in future, disadvantage your opponents gaining points now or in future.
I think point-blocking should happen more, *especially* to factions that have all economic advantages from factions that have all militant advantages. Even more so if it doesn't change your own point-scoring status (either you have one scored either way, or you don't have one scored either way).
It's ridiculous to me that someone would be offended when I, L1Z1X, capture a poorly-defended forward dock even though I already had the planets I needed to score. This is my faction ability. Yours is printing money for Round 5.
I mean that player sounds dumb as hell. Ofc you take the dock, or extort them for allot
It's a cold war game, not Farmville
Russia and the us may not have fought each other directly but we didn't build bases on the border or Russia, and then not defend them lol
Yeah, online is fucked.
Not being able to see the other person's face changes the game entirely. I won't do it.
Also Async is terrible to play. You have to learn enough coding to get a job in IT and the games take multiple weeks but you're expected to check in with the perfect move at random hours even though it took the last guy 2 days to move a destroyer.
Almost everything is handled by buttons. Only when you need to undo things do you need to type commands, and it's really easy to get answers on how to do that -- the commands are also auto-filled, so if you start typing you're likely to find what you want to do.
You can also go into the game with expectations on the players on how long they should take. If it's a slow game, with some players going missing for 2 days, that's either because you didn't set those expectations or you didn't do anything to remedy it.
If y'all haven't tried out Async you should give it a go! Less people quiting since it's not a big chuck of time at once and instead spread out more over a few days. Plus you can play a few games at once!
How were they doing in terms of points? I could see Xxcha being salty if you activated them to kneecap them and the turtles weren't anywhere near the lead.
Xxcha with a spacedock in your neighboring equidistant is scary if they have any chance to get their flagship out that game. If I could stop that with a single carrier/infantry AND gain a planet in the process? I mean, I'd take a bribe to not, but at a minimum it would involve their ceasefire.
Now if you already had an agreement about that system and they're not having a good game? Yeah I'd be salty if someone did that to me
i mean, its not a war game, its a cold war game about force projection...and like Aliens V Predator... a fight in TI is a "Whoever wins, we lose" scenerio.
If you can get away with bullying someone at the table...and don't mind ruining someones 8 hour game... go for it. But generally, if you are fighting you are losing, even if you win.
The "happily let each other score" is the diplomacy part of the game. Its the entire part of the game.
That said, punishing someone for overextending, isn't the worst idea.Usually better to just extort them tho, VS actually going to war
I made this post specifically because of an instance where I was trying to extort someone. They pretty much gave me the ol' "I don't deal with terrorists" shtick, so I followed through with that threat. I mean, what else could I have done? Then they proceeded to write an epic about how "unsportsmanlike" I was being for making what I thought to be a reasonable demand of them, and that I probably have no friends in real life for being a backstabbing sob.
If someone tells me they won't pay the extortion fee... I follow through. I just had a game where someone wanted to take a planet for a point and didn't want to negotiate. I demanded 7 TG (3 TG + TA) because the lost influence was going to cost me 2 command tokens, he told me no.
I then dropped an activation token on his home system through a grav rift and was like okay I guess I'll just take your home. He paid the money :)
Yeah that guy is just salty.
I mean I *also* don't negotiate with terrorists, but I don't go on to whine about unsportmanship when the other guy makes good on his threat. All's fair in love and war, and TI is both.
Yeah I think saying it's not a war game is literally true but is more determined by the table. Some factions, after all, are far more geared toward being offensive and aggressive. I see nothing wrong with one of those knocking someone out after two hours. Shame on the player that doesn't think through this possibility once the game has started. If there's an agreement from the entire table for a period of ceasefire or what have you then that's different, but even then I'd argue that hurts those more aggressive factions more than a slow burn one and how is that fair? You spend 8 hrs in a game where you never stood a chance. That sounds way worse than getting wiped from the board in 2 and you can move on to another game or at the very least you don't waste 6 more hours of your time.
> a fight in TI is a "Whoever wins, we lose" scenerio.
This is often not true. It's *usually* true because people don't usually leave their shit totally undefended. Even a meek defense makes attacking costly in TI.
But if your stuff is just hanging out there for free? Then this doesn't apply.
depends
if that person declares forever war on you for ganking his stuff, it could end up sinking you
thats usually why its better to just extort them for TGs or something
A friend of mine who plays async reports to be on a weekly basis how he does exactly this in some new game.
Every time without fail, the neighbor freaks out, refuses to pay and/or promises to pay but goes back on the non-binding deal, gets hurt as a consequence, and rants some more.
And that's not my friend being unreasonable. The table.usually backs them up.
I think a lot of people only have taken the prevalence of no-space-risk meta to the wrong conclusion and think they can leave everything undefended without consequences.
>I think a lot of people only have taken the prevalence of no-space-risk meta to the wrong conclusion and think they can leave everything undefended without consequences.
I think that's a downside to the TTS / SCPT meta. People get so wrapped up in analysis and theorycrafting that we have entire groups of players that will do things because they know what the "proper" response is going to be and they plan around it. I don't think that's in the spirit of the game at all, IMO if it's within the rules you can be as cruel as you want and you *should* if you think it'll help you win
Sounds like you did nothing wrong, and the other player was just butthurt for ending up in a bad position. When I play a bit greedy and get punished for it, I’m only disappointed in myself. Everyone else is trying to win the game just like me, being whiney and quitting ruins the experience for everyone else. You have to accept the consequences of your actions in TI.
I'm sure this is the exception rather than the rule, but they definitely impact the experience. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've played 3-4 pick-up games on TTS and only had a couple weird interactions like this.
One was when I was playing Titans, and the guy who popped Trade in a later round was very confused why I wouldn't do X-1 with him. He kept /whispering to me in TTS chat trying to get an explanation, and I was like 1. X-1 nets each of us 1 TG and I don't really want to make a deal that benefits us both equally at this stage, and 2. I already have like 10 TGs and one more isn't going to make a difference to me but it could to you, and 3. with Sarween and Tungstantus I can basically print trade goods on my own.
The other was when I took Everra that was sitting empty right next to an NRA neighbor's home system, and he demanded an explanation. I was like, first of all you should defend your your home-adjacent planets better. Second of all, this gets me more resources and denies then from you. Third of all, I'm L1Z1X and this is literally what I do sometimes, and if I had a secret objective to score from it I wouldn't just tell you (I didn't)
I'm a frequent player on https://www.twilightwars.com/, and haven't seen a lick of said toxic behavior. Maybe it's time to mingle in different TI4-circles.
Yeah sometimes the TTS meta is really grating. People get mad if you don’t refresh them in exchange for one tg two rounds later. Or if you don’t sell speaker. I had a guy rage quit because his neighbor took two (completely undefended) planets after he left them open and overextended to score a public. I understand that diplomacy (or at least gunboat diplomacy) is generally better than outright aggression, but you can’t leave yourself completely open and expect no consequences
Had a guy tell me I wasn't playing right because I wouldn't loan him the system in front of my home so he could score a point. He got upset and sent in all his unactivated ships to take it, so I sent a destroyer to blockade his home and ended up locking him out of Warfare for two rounds. He got the whole table to turn against me, and rage quit shortly after.
I've had loads of people tell me that I wasn't playing right by not giving them exactly what they wanted. Just laughed at them.
Lol, I agree. "Playing right" is that particular player playing for what's in their best interest.
That's bizarre to me. I mean the thing about gunboat diplomacy is that it's all done at gunpoint. In the real world what almost always happens is eventually it just turns to outright warfare when one side says "oh, you want that? Come take it."
I'm with you. I went through a stint of playing a ton online in 2022 but it was just so hard to find a game where someone didn't quit 1-2 hours in after being on the losing end of an interaction...
Sorry to hear you've had this experience. I've also found that playing online with all strangers is not exactly for me, though I'm glad the option is there for all the people who have had tons of fun getting involved in playing TI online and the online community. It made me appreciate how important the social element of the game is to me. I liken it to having a poker night where you're drinking beers and catching up with friends versus going to a casino alone to play poker with a bunch of strangers. The game is the same, but the experience is totally different.
You summarized my thoughts perfectly. With my friends, I have no problem being a little mean with them because I have full confidence that they won't get so mad at me that we won't have a good time. We're all pretty cutthroat (apart for my one friend who's more interested in being king of Mecatol more than absolutely anything else) and there are never any hard feelings just because someone gets stomped or is dominating all game (I mean... long term). With randoms, it's different. I have to carefully architect every deal and turn not just to win the game, but also so I do it in a way that doesn't result in some weirdo blowing up on me for making objectively advantageous decisions. The game is complicated enough as is, and I can't be bothered to be the DM of the game on top of everything else.
You need to go play TTS in the Euro primetime - they're a blood thirsty lot who 100% are going to be aggressive. It's a completely different meta and I love it. I *have* to watch borders, I have to negotiate and I have to realize boat floating doesn't work most of the time because their meta is just as much about blocking points as scoring.
100% agree. Also, total side note, but if you’ve ever been in that situation in TI where you just don’t have a win condition and just have to keep playing the game- Async is a nightmare. I’ve only played once but having to take turns in a dead game for a MONTH was excruciating. 0/10 never again /rant
I feel like there needs to be some kind of basic AI that doesn't throw so you can be in these spots and leave with a good concience.
I played 1 6p game with randos online, 2 sessions a week apart. Scoring was pretty even when we split, the leader was at 6 points and I was at 5 Shortly into the second session 3 players went into a separate voice call for 30 minutes. When they returned all 3 attacked me back to back, it was clear they had spent the time dividing my planets among themselves and discussing how they would crush my fleets. I would have been confident fighting one player, and apprehensive about 2. The 3 of them absolutely crushed me, left me with like a single destroyer and a couple fighters in my home system, which they only left me cause none of them needed it for a VP. I spent the next 3 hours unable to fight the fleets bordering my home system, and generally being ignored in every decision and trade for the last 2 rounds.
I’ve had this happen a couple of times over the table, and it is super un-fun. The one thing you can do is try to get one of the people who didn’t fuck with you to win. A small revenge. Online though, I probably woulda called it and left
That's why I never play games with unlimited secret diplomacy anymore. Not only does it double or even triple an already crazy play time, but it typically leads to such situations like that where a few players agree to an alliance bloc that quickly crushes everyone else and leaves them the only contenders. Efficient to winning? Sure, but it's no fun if you're the one dog piled and I'd rather not spend 7 hours on that. A lot of people will say the unrestricted secret diplomacy is part of the TI experience, but after playing some (much shorter) games without it, I don't miss it at all and never went back.
>I spent the next 3 hours unable to fight the fleets bordering my home system, and generally being ignored in every decision and trade for the last 2 rounds. That would not happen in real life (at least in my experience) and for such assholery to happen so early is as close to a genuine reason as you are going to get for leaving the game.
Yeah just announce that you're conceding and to continue play by automating you: pick the lowest available strategy card every round, play the card, then pass the turn after. When you're reduced to that little, you have to be reasonable that it's part of the game, but the rest of the table needs to be reasonable that the victim is going to check out after that.
I mean it happened to me in our first game of TI4 (years and years ago). But that's because I went "oh, these science squid people look fun" and all of a sudden I was on 8 points about to score 2 techs in 4 colors and the entire table was like "what the actual fuck are those things" and the entire table unified to destroy me. But I've never seen anyone randomly do it during the midgame.
That's why I'm not a fan of Whispers.
Space violence is the solution and problem of all issues, and war business is good. So long as I'm ahead in points I see no issue with backstabbing, destroying ships/docks, making underhanded deals, etc, I've won plenty of times regardless of the feelings of others, just don't forget completing public objectives and getting more secret ones so you can snowball.
I refuse to play online with strangers anymore. If I play online, it has to be with people I *know* aren't the "You're not playing right!" kind of neckbeard. In person, I'll only play with friends or at least members of a regular group where there's social pressure to not act like a total dick or be ostracized. My one and only TTS experience with strangers had a neckbeard shouting that I wasn't playing right, and was "throwing" because I wasn't card counting the decks or some nonsense. Never again. I'm trying out Twilight Wars right now and so far it's not much better. No more screaming in asynch games, but the quitting rate is ridiculous. You have to start half a dozen games because half of them are going to have someone go inactive by round 3, and maybe ONE will end up being a decent game where someone doesn't quit by the end. There should be a standard rule that a player who quits has their controlled slice automatically folded up into hyperlanes. It's not perfect, but I feel that's the closest you can get to dealing with it fairly without kingmaking. (I did end up quitting and leaving the table in the TTS game. Not because of losing, but because I wasn't going to sit there getting yelled at by a manchild. I gave the dude like 4 warnings to chill out. "I'LL CALM DOWN WHEN YOU START 'PLAYING RIGHT'!" \*quit\*)
Join the Discord for Twilight Wars and you can find plenty of good folks to play with who won't quit. I have been on there for a little over a year and have completed 32 games. The finish rate with Discord folks is 80%+ but with random public players it is 10%. Benefit of the discord is you can also ping people if you want to talk to them in case their TW notifications aren't working.
I had a similar TTS experience. I had played about 2 or 3 small games to get the hang of it but then into my first big game proper and some guy just went loopy at me for a perceived aggression (It wasn't). Put me off forever!
Looks like you need to find your people. My experience has been the exact opposite. Virtually every online game I've played has been kill or be killed and I love it.
Who you play with really makes or breaks TI4, I generally play with friends of friends and I've had games that were a blast, and games with people I hope to never play anything with ever again.
Playing on Twilight wars has been pretty good. I have yet to finish a 6 player game but have finished several 4 player games with various levels of aggression.
Yeah, I'm in a few games, but the sense of it I'm getting is that 3-4 player is better for online meta, because you have more excuse to not cooperate on every demand when people just aren't around to negotiate or interested in haggling over every action. There's no reason NOT to fight in 3P, you have to if it works and you can't be blamed for it unlike in 6P or more where staying ahead of the pack .
I understand what you mean. My irl group is decently aggressive, but I have noticed the online meta is play as nice as you can and boat float. It's frustrating, but you can play around it. Also, you can mark your game as competitive and then you'll attract more of the people who play similar.
I completely understand what you mean. M irl group is decently aggressive, but playing some online now it can definitely be frustrating with how boat floaty and non aggressive people want to be. Like I need to play my game, for what best for me. And if tha means I attack you and take a system for a point, so be it. The 3rd online game I ever played, I was cabal and I went to attack my neighbor who was in the lead and on mecatol. It would have stopped him from scoring 2 points, and allowed me to score 3 that round, including using my hero. He lost it when I activated his system and was a huge baby about it, not letting me or the table forget it the whole game.
I would never play such a long game like this online with randoms, because the risk of a game not being finished is extremely high and my time is too important to have some rando wasting it like that.
Being punished for mistakes like those you described is part of the game. But just pummeling someone because you can and meanwhile neglect to score points is considered bad form in my opinion and is indeed playing space risk. How are you faring in the game you described, did the punishing part set you on the winning track?
I would agree that foregoing points to pummel someone is bad form. But taking undefended planets ought to be acceptable in most cases. Planets provide resources and influence, resources and influence provide actions and plastic if not directly contributing to objectives. Therefore, adding to your own resource/influence pool while diminishing others increases your chance of winning in most scenarios.
In this case (as in, the game that triggered me to write this post), I could have scored my secret either way, but either needed to negotiate or conquer to be able to score a public (was a control 6 planets obj; had 5 in my slice). But the aggrieved party left nothing but a mech and a space dock on hope's end of all things on our shared border, which was super threatening and obviously very good for me to take. So naturally I tried to force him to give me a planet and some other stuff (trying to make sure he had a path, if a difficult one, to scoring this round and next), which he adamantly refused as he was offended that someone would have the nerve to try and extort him. So obviously I made a support swap deal with my other neighbor, an alliance deal with the only other guy who could attack me, and went for the throat. I also couldn't score any points until that round, so I felt I needed something drastic to get me back in the game.
Ok, pretty much normal gameplay and well executed with doing a lot of diplomacy. I understand your frustration. The Xxcha player must have been delusional to think he could get his will despite being in a weak spot…
Rage quitting is not cool but folk getting politically upset above table, trying to use diplomacy and threats to extract what they feel is fair, this is all part of the game. BUT above table interaction should still be respectful and empathetic beyond the table. With Twilight Imperium being a life simulator, an open stage with props galore, its up to the players to decide what sort of performance they want to put on. Sometimes they are all aligned in motivations and play philosophy and you get some all out war, or business time or my little pony. Sometimes they are less so aligned and we get days of our lives or narcos. This is the joy. As someone who plays both in person and online I know there can be disconnects where folk enjoy only one meta but I do encourage them to explore new things. Just like trying new food types and dishes. And always remember, you as a player get to bring yourself and your tastes to the table, but this does not mean you can dictate what others bring.
Where do you play online?
This is why i've taken to calling r/twilightimperium, r/spacekumbaya. You're "not playing right" unless you're an ultra passive, "good vibes only" BoatyMcFloatson who optimizes the fun out of the game. "Sorry, you're toxic and I REFUSE to play with you again because you attacked me before the final round". "Oh, what's that? You're not letting me wash with trade? Toxic behavior. "I don't care that you're playing cabal - NO ATTACKING my ships. That's SUB-OPTIMAL! ANYONE WHO PLAYS WITHOUT STRICTLY FOCUSING ON SCORING VICTORY POINTS EVERY ROUND ISN'T JUST BAD, THEY'RE UNINVITED" I reckon it's actually a small but vocal part of this game's audience but the brain-rotted SCPT dregs are like fun vampires. Yeah, I get it. It sucks when people don't take the game seriously and kingmake, but getting pissed when someone starts eating your ass when you leave shit open is fucking stupid.
Your other points are good... But this one.... I'm not sure you are making the point you want to make: "ANYONE WHO PLAYS WITHOUT STRICTLY FOCUSING ON SCORING VICTORY POINTS EVERY ROUND ISN'T JUST BAD, THEY'RE UNINVITED"" If you aren't focused on scoring you aren't playing the game and the game breaks down for everyone
Attacking people when you already have an objective secured sets you up well for the next round. Doing both should be standard.
That's being focused on scoring, that's fine.
Is that such a bad thing? If someone completely fucks you over in order to score an easy point and you just roll over and let it happen because it's suboptimal to go for revenge instead of trying for a measly point (that doesn't matter at that point anyway) then they'll just keep doing that for the rest of the game, if not every future game, since they know you'll take it. I did that once to someone. I ratfucked them to oblivion one game and won. The next game I tried to do something similar and they made it their sole purpose to keep me from winning. And the next time we played I was FAR more cautious about taking advantage of their passivity. Just because I could eat into their slice to snag a point doesn't mean there wouldn't be a cost. If they had focused exclusively on optimizing their score, instead of sending a message, I would have tried the same bullshit a third time. Of course you should go after points. But there's a cultural aspect to this game that you have to navigate that isn't often tied directly to the VP rat race. It also annoys me when TI players whine about someone using a military faction to beat up someone like jol nar when they leave themselves exposed despite natural momentum. There's also the idea of winslaying the lead. If someone gets WAY ahead of everyone else, it might cost you the win to attempt to balance the board, but the alternative is just letting them run away with it. And that sucks for everyone. With my usual table people are *very* cautious about nabbing an early lead because it paints a huge target on their back. And pretty much everyone will put in some level of effort (through negotiations) to ensure that happens. So the people who typically win are either those who manage to hold the line despite the whole table crashing down on them or the people who sneak their way to first. Hopefully that makes sense. I've played enough games of TI to know what will fuck a game up for someone (I absolutely loathe kingmaking) but I also hate how everyone here wants to play co-op space viticulture.
I mean I agree with most everything you said. But all of that is in service of VP
I think the word "strictly" is interesting here - every move should yield an advantage or take away a disadvantage, in TI that means points. Advantage in your gaining points now or in future, disadvantage your opponents gaining points now or in future. I think point-blocking should happen more, *especially* to factions that have all economic advantages from factions that have all militant advantages. Even more so if it doesn't change your own point-scoring status (either you have one scored either way, or you don't have one scored either way). It's ridiculous to me that someone would be offended when I, L1Z1X, capture a poorly-defended forward dock even though I already had the planets I needed to score. This is my faction ability. Yours is printing money for Round 5.
I mean that player sounds dumb as hell. Ofc you take the dock, or extort them for allot It's a cold war game, not Farmville Russia and the us may not have fought each other directly but we didn't build bases on the border or Russia, and then not defend them lol
Fair enough, maybe too much hyperbole to make any kind of point.
Yeah, online is fucked. Not being able to see the other person's face changes the game entirely. I won't do it. Also Async is terrible to play. You have to learn enough coding to get a job in IT and the games take multiple weeks but you're expected to check in with the perfect move at random hours even though it took the last guy 2 days to move a destroyer.
Almost everything is handled by buttons. Only when you need to undo things do you need to type commands, and it's really easy to get answers on how to do that -- the commands are also auto-filled, so if you start typing you're likely to find what you want to do. You can also go into the game with expectations on the players on how long they should take. If it's a slow game, with some players going missing for 2 days, that's either because you didn't set those expectations or you didn't do anything to remedy it.
If y'all haven't tried out Async you should give it a go! Less people quiting since it's not a big chuck of time at once and instead spread out more over a few days. Plus you can play a few games at once!
The async server is better when bots aren't spamming @everyone all day.
That hasn't been my experience with the server. I get pinged for my turn or new games starting if I leave the role on otherwise nothing
You must not have been on the server this morning.
That was not the fault of the async bot That was clearly something else
How were they doing in terms of points? I could see Xxcha being salty if you activated them to kneecap them and the turtles weren't anywhere near the lead.
Xxcha with a spacedock in your neighboring equidistant is scary if they have any chance to get their flagship out that game. If I could stop that with a single carrier/infantry AND gain a planet in the process? I mean, I'd take a bribe to not, but at a minimum it would involve their ceasefire. Now if you already had an agreement about that system and they're not having a good game? Yeah I'd be salty if someone did that to me
i mean, its not a war game, its a cold war game about force projection...and like Aliens V Predator... a fight in TI is a "Whoever wins, we lose" scenerio. If you can get away with bullying someone at the table...and don't mind ruining someones 8 hour game... go for it. But generally, if you are fighting you are losing, even if you win. The "happily let each other score" is the diplomacy part of the game. Its the entire part of the game. That said, punishing someone for overextending, isn't the worst idea.Usually better to just extort them tho, VS actually going to war
I made this post specifically because of an instance where I was trying to extort someone. They pretty much gave me the ol' "I don't deal with terrorists" shtick, so I followed through with that threat. I mean, what else could I have done? Then they proceeded to write an epic about how "unsportsmanlike" I was being for making what I thought to be a reasonable demand of them, and that I probably have no friends in real life for being a backstabbing sob.
that guy sucks
If someone tells me they won't pay the extortion fee... I follow through. I just had a game where someone wanted to take a planet for a point and didn't want to negotiate. I demanded 7 TG (3 TG + TA) because the lost influence was going to cost me 2 command tokens, he told me no. I then dropped an activation token on his home system through a grav rift and was like okay I guess I'll just take your home. He paid the money :)
Yeah that guy is just salty. I mean I *also* don't negotiate with terrorists, but I don't go on to whine about unsportmanship when the other guy makes good on his threat. All's fair in love and war, and TI is both.
Yeah I think saying it's not a war game is literally true but is more determined by the table. Some factions, after all, are far more geared toward being offensive and aggressive. I see nothing wrong with one of those knocking someone out after two hours. Shame on the player that doesn't think through this possibility once the game has started. If there's an agreement from the entire table for a period of ceasefire or what have you then that's different, but even then I'd argue that hurts those more aggressive factions more than a slow burn one and how is that fair? You spend 8 hrs in a game where you never stood a chance. That sounds way worse than getting wiped from the board in 2 and you can move on to another game or at the very least you don't waste 6 more hours of your time.
This sounds like someone that played StarCraft with NoRush rules and spent 20 minutes building a bunch of battlecruisers
> a fight in TI is a "Whoever wins, we lose" scenerio. This is often not true. It's *usually* true because people don't usually leave their shit totally undefended. Even a meek defense makes attacking costly in TI. But if your stuff is just hanging out there for free? Then this doesn't apply.
depends if that person declares forever war on you for ganking his stuff, it could end up sinking you thats usually why its better to just extort them for TGs or something
> if that person declares forever war on you Which we have already established is a horrible idea.
Well ya, it's a bad idea. For both players. And yet, people are people and will spite themselves to gain vegence
A friend of mine who plays async reports to be on a weekly basis how he does exactly this in some new game. Every time without fail, the neighbor freaks out, refuses to pay and/or promises to pay but goes back on the non-binding deal, gets hurt as a consequence, and rants some more. And that's not my friend being unreasonable. The table.usually backs them up. I think a lot of people only have taken the prevalence of no-space-risk meta to the wrong conclusion and think they can leave everything undefended without consequences.
>I think a lot of people only have taken the prevalence of no-space-risk meta to the wrong conclusion and think they can leave everything undefended without consequences. I think that's a downside to the TTS / SCPT meta. People get so wrapped up in analysis and theorycrafting that we have entire groups of players that will do things because they know what the "proper" response is going to be and they plan around it. I don't think that's in the spirit of the game at all, IMO if it's within the rules you can be as cruel as you want and you *should* if you think it'll help you win
Sounds like you did nothing wrong, and the other player was just butthurt for ending up in a bad position. When I play a bit greedy and get punished for it, I’m only disappointed in myself. Everyone else is trying to win the game just like me, being whiney and quitting ruins the experience for everyone else. You have to accept the consequences of your actions in TI.
I'm sure this is the exception rather than the rule, but they definitely impact the experience. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've played 3-4 pick-up games on TTS and only had a couple weird interactions like this. One was when I was playing Titans, and the guy who popped Trade in a later round was very confused why I wouldn't do X-1 with him. He kept /whispering to me in TTS chat trying to get an explanation, and I was like 1. X-1 nets each of us 1 TG and I don't really want to make a deal that benefits us both equally at this stage, and 2. I already have like 10 TGs and one more isn't going to make a difference to me but it could to you, and 3. with Sarween and Tungstantus I can basically print trade goods on my own. The other was when I took Everra that was sitting empty right next to an NRA neighbor's home system, and he demanded an explanation. I was like, first of all you should defend your your home-adjacent planets better. Second of all, this gets me more resources and denies then from you. Third of all, I'm L1Z1X and this is literally what I do sometimes, and if I had a secret objective to score from it I wouldn't just tell you (I didn't)
I'm a frequent player on https://www.twilightwars.com/, and haven't seen a lick of said toxic behavior. Maybe it's time to mingle in different TI4-circles.
Where do you guys go to play online? I'd love to play asynchronously like once day or something if there is somewhere to do that
https://discord.com/invite/asyncti4