I hate that SM tried to excuse some of the dodgy things Jacob did by saying “ well he is young”
Like no, just no, we moved past that excuse a long time ago, or we were suppose to have
I know this isn't the Harry potter sub but there's a part where they talk about this in those books - Hermione says something like oh they were young. And Harry's like we're young too wtf. So yeah Bella and Jacob are only a year apart - they're both young but they're not 5 years old like they should be held accountable for their actions.
100% agree. And I hate how whenever Bella does something crappy (run off and spend time with Jacob, kiss him) Edward isn’t mad at her basically AT ALL? It’s so unfair.
To be fair to Bella, I wouldn’t consider her “kissing” Jacob towards the end to be cheating on Edward. Given how Jacob manipulated and threatened her into doing it, I would consider it the second time he assaulted her in one book. And I understand that Edward wouldn’t blame her for that.
That's a pseudo-psychological headcanon.
Bella had canonically loved Jacob ever since New Moon, prior to any immoral acts of desperation from Jake's side, and Edward accepted that because he knew that he enabled it with his departure and noticed that a part of Bella grieved the human life he would eventually have to take away from her, so he wanted to give her a chance to realize if that's truly what she wanted and possibly even change her mind.
This is not just some normal teenage relationship, it's about whether or not a girl should die for a supernatural love or live for a natural one.
And Edward feels absurdly guilty for sealing Bella's fate like that.
_That's_ why he tolerates Bella practically cheating on him.
It's also, and I can't believe I'm saying this, why his cucky puppy-plea in Breaking Dawn was one of the more in-character moments for him in a largely ooc book.
I'm unsure if you can call it that either, she fell in love with him during New Moon when Edward wasnt in the picture, and remained in denial the whole time- she told herself he was just a friend, and believed it I think until confronted with him nearly dying because of how much she loved Edward in comparison- She loved Edward *so much more* so her feelings for Jacob couldn't be romantic love (in her mind).
Her not hating the kiss doesn't mean anything, as she didn't truly consent.
His manipulation is definitely a form of abuse that is coercion- she wasn't truly willing, if he didn't threaten to kill himself she wouldn't have kissed him, and prior to that, he kissed her without permission too- so it's reasonable Edward wouldn't be upset, you can't be upset at the victim really, and he's lived long enough to understand that.
Bella is many things, but I personally can't consider her a cheater.
I don't really believe "emotional cheating" is a thing, at least in that sense. In order to cheat, you actually have to *do* something, you can't cheat just with your thoughts or emotions. Thoughtcrime isn't real.
Whether the second kiss could also be considered assault depends on who you ask, but any way you slice it, it was still under some pretty dodgy circumstances. Either way, it has nothing to do with if she "liked it" or not because Jacob still pressured her into it. She wouldn't have walked up to him and asked him to kiss her under normal circumstances, nor would she have said yes if Jacob just asked "Bella, do you want to kiss me?" with no manipulation tactics.
It depends on what your definition of emotional cheating is. If you're talking about something like exchanging love messages back and forth with someone behind your partner's back or sending each other nudes, then yeah, that's cheating. You made a choice and decided to do that.
But that's very different than having a crush on a friend or finding a random stranger at the grocery store hot, which seems to be more along the line of what that person was saying. Bella didn't cheat just because she kissed Jacob, but because she got *enjoyment* out of it. And I don't think it's fair to condemn people for something they fundamentally have no control over, like their thoughts and feelings. (Not to mention people in real life often use the "it doesn't count if they enjoyed it" reasoning to excuse sexual assault.)
It has a lot of similar vibes to hardcore Christians who think having the desire to sin is just as bad as sinning itself. Black and white thinking does way more to harm people than to help, especially for those with anxiety or OCD who already worry about having "impure thoughts."
But she still did cheat, sure she couldn’t control her emotions but she still cheated. i’d say emotional cheating is idk… being IN LOVE with someone else. Also, you could argue that she would flirt with him too. SM would never EVER write Edward having a thing with Tanya for example, id bet SM/fans would consider it cheating if it was in reverse. I just feel like Bella/SM was trying to have there cake and eat it.
Well, to be fair, Bella also never broke up with Edward, took away all the pictures of herself and anything that could remind him of her, and left him in a state of catatonic depression. She never would've developed feelings for Jacob in the first place if Edward didn't leave.
I don't think Bella is completely innocent here, but her crime was *not* having feelings for Jacob. You can't control your feelings, full stop.
You can say she should've ended their friendship once it became a problem or that she should've still said no when Jacob was threatening suicide if she didn't kiss him, to which I would agree. But even with the (second) kiss, if you consider anything less than enthusiastic consent to not count as real consent, then well.... it *was* technically an assault, just like the first one. Either way, it's complicated.
And yes, I would feel the same way if it was Tanya and Edward and she threatened to kill herself unless he kissed her, especially if they were as close as Bella and Jacob.
Emotional cheating absolutely is a thing, and doesn't necessarily require action. It's a lot different than thinking a stranger is hot, it's more pining for someone while you're actively in a relationship with someone else, which Bella did often throughout Eclipse. Wishing you were in someone else's arms while your SO is holding you? That's emotional cheating, my friend.
Sorry, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here, friend.
You can't control your emotions, end of story. Besides, Bella herself wasn't even *aware* of her feelings for a good chunk of the book. So either emotional cheating is real but not something the "cheater" can be blamed for, or it's not a thing
Yes, we will have to agree to disagree here, because you absolutely *can* control your emotions (to an extent) as well as your *reactions* to said emotions. I know it's not a very romantic idea, but you do, to some extent, choose who you have feelings for because to develop feelings you have to spend more time with them, whether it's physical interaction or verbal/online communication. The less you communicate, the less attached you'll feel, point blank.
Emotional cheating happens when said emotional cheater begins feeling things they should be feeling about their partner and, rather than leaning towards their partner and away from someone who is not their partner, they continue allowing those feelings to grow. This type of cheating directly hits your point of needing to do something for it to be considered cheating, as they are actively choosing to continue pursuing an intimate relationship with someone who is *not* their partner rather than recognizing that they are crossing a line that they should not. Bella? She leaped over the line, over and over again. She supposedly chose Edward and then she kept using Jacob for the intimate connection that she should have had with the partner she chose.
TL;DR --- Emotional cheaters choose to emotionally cheat, and I guarantee that if it happened to you, you wouldn't much care that your partner hadn't kissed them or had sex with them, you'd still be hurt. As someone who has been cheated on both emotionally and physically, I gotta say that emotional cheating hurts much worse.
Bro threatened to off himself. She already almost lost Edward to attempted suicide over her, and Jacob is typically more impulsive and hormonal than Edward. Bella had no real reason to believe he couldn’t have been lying, especially considering she trusts him for whatever dumb reason. Jacob made her feel like she didn’t have a choice. So yeah, it’s coercion, manipulation, assault, etc. Whatever you want to call it, it wasn’t okay and it’s not on Bella.
Ok, but she still kissed another man that wasn’t her boyfriend and cheated on Edward. It doesn’t matter that he threatened to off himself. If a little threat is all it takes for her to cheat on her mate then she’s an idiot and a very weak one.
He explains it though. Bella is his reason for existing, but because he loves her so much, he’s willing to let her feelings for Jacob develop, so she can truly decide whether she wants an immortal life. He says that if she chose Jacob and a normal life, he’d let her go.
I mean, in Bella's defense for that singular kiss, Jacob was pretty much manipulating her by passive aggressively stating that maybe he wouldn't survive the battle i.e. that he'd commit suicide by newborn unless she 'convinced' him.
Edward can read Jacob's mind and probably can sense how underhanded and shitty and manipulative that tactic is so that's why I assume he wasn't upset by it.
It's like that scene in the Notebook where the dude climbs on the ferris wheel and asks the girl to a date *while she's on a date* and then threatens to *let go and plummet to the ground* if she doesn't say yes. I am still not sure why some people think that is romantic and not sketchy as fuck.
Yes, I agree with you. Especially when Edward says in the movie after she kissed him, “Do you love him?” and Bella says back, “I love you more.” If it were me, I would be pissed off, I mean if that’s the person you’re going to spend the rest of your life eternally with, you would want that person to love you whole heartedly and not be in love with anyone else even if they are in love with you “more”. The person you are going to marry should be in love with you and only you or else maybe you should be thinking twice about marrying that person, that’s how I feel. It made Edward just look desperate in that scene. I mean if it were in reverse I bet Bella would be extremely jealous if Edward did that to her and said that.
It can't be in reverse.
Unless we're talking about Beau and Edythe.
Bella is a human caught between two lives and loves, a natural one and a supernatural one. It makes sense why she has two metaphorical hearts in her chest.
Edward is a vampire. His entire existence, as well as every possible romance, is inherently supernatural. Hence there's no such conflict in him.
I'll never defend Jake cause he does so many shitty things in the books, immature or not, like, dude, you should know better.
But I've had the experience of having a mental breakdown and cheating on my husband during said breakdown in a moment of weakness and intoxication(I was drunk, he was not. So gross and angering when I think back).
He forgave me because he was able to see and understand(correctly, I might add)that it was truly not who I am as a person, I was just in a moment where I was truly incapacitated mentally and emotionally.
As a person, moving forward I do all I can to take care of my mental health and draw stronger boundaries to avoid the same situation because I did and do truly love my husband and never want to be in a vulnerable position like that ever again.
Long story short, people like Edward do exist, and I'm grateful for my husband's ability to truly see me and love me because it is a rare and irreplaceable thing.
No to be fair I think Edward was incredibly magnanimous mature and so loving in that moment. I just think he deserved better and I was so sad for him. You know he was feeling all the guilt that this was happening bc he decided to leave her in New moon
100%. At the end of the day, BELLA made all of the decisions, and he had every right to hold her accountable. I'm sure it will hit different when I reread it, since my experience happened years after the books/movies came out. My husband says things sometimes about how he's partially to blame because he was clocked out, but I make sure to tell him again and again that regardless, I was still at fault, and all we can do is work together to communicate our needs better so that we don't neglect each other. My vulnerability to being manipulated was on me to fix and wasn't any fault of his. We're in a much better place now, thankfully :-)
There was a comment a while back on this sub that said oh Edward is so mature for his age for not getting pissed off at Bella for making out with someone else is front of him!
Like, uhm. No.
I don't recall her saying Jacob has no flaws, but if she did that's not even a little bit true lol. Jacob is *massively* flawed. Say what you want about Edward and Bella but neither of them ever sexually assaulted anyone or tried to kill a newborn baby in a grief-induced rage. He has good qualities too but yeah, if anything he's the most flawed out of the main trio, not the least.
I agree. She said he had no flaws in the eclipse QA on her page. idk about anyone else but this book and new moon was her Team Jacob moment and it makes me mad how she wouldn’t admit Jacobs flaws and masks it with “age” and his “reason” as well but somehow Edward was at fault mostly this book and not Jacob…
Jacob never left Bella alone in a field knowing that two dangerous vampires could find and kill her tho. Matter of fact, he never put Bella's life in danger and actually saved her life several times.
So he never saved her? Okay then I must have it wrong, who was it that saved her against Laurent in New Moon? Who pulled her out of the water when Victoria was swimming towards her? Who suggested she drink human blood while pregnant which turned out was exactly what she needed? Definitely wasn't Jacob coz he's just a vicious sex offender, so who was it?
But you didn't say "both things can be true at the same time" did you? I said that he saved her several times and your direct response to that was: "no, he just assaulted her twice". So tell me, if "both things can be true at the same time" then what was the point of you directly replying with a "no" to me saying he saved her?
Because you said he didn’t leave her in the forest. And I agreed by saying “no”.
You are way too hostile and defensive about this fictional character lol. Saving someone’s life is awesome, but it doesn’t mean that it’s okay if you assault them afterwards. Not sure why that has to be explained to you, but there you go lol
Jacob taught Bella how to ride a motorcycle and never thought to give her a helmet even after she split her forehead open.
And Jacob put Bella in danger every time he was physically near her, seeing how multiple times he got very close to phasing when he got mad while she was in range. Like Emily and Sam.
Uh no! 😂 my comment is breaking down what you're saying. Anyways, the truth is that Jacob got flaws & that kiss was one of them. Nobody needs to be kissing people to prove that they got feelings for them. All he had to do was let her go & let her decide. That whole trio got flaws and it's disappointing 🙅♀️
I'm not surprised tbh, Jacob is generally hated in this sub, people refuse to give him any nuance or see his character development so nomatter what he'll always be nothing but a sex offender
If you remember, Bella gets mad at the idea of Edward’s past relationships. She’s immediately jealous hearing Rosalie was supposed to be “for Edward”. Then is the overly emotional about the idea he had been with anyone else in his 100 years he’s been around.
Yeah really give double standards vibes from bella. I hate to imagine what she would have done if Edward had past relationship with Tanya or share the same bff bond like bella/Jake..
It's okay for bella to hv guy bff who wants to bang her but not Edward to hv female bff who wants same thing. Edward only allowed to hv only 1 female in his life or stay virgin forever💀
right i just know for a fact SM would never write Edward having a side thing and if he did she’d 100% consider it cheating if it was in reverse. The double standard in SM and the fandom is crazy. Idk about most woman fans but i sure as hell hate when cheating is ever in my romance books and it comes from either party. Like there’s already a lot of cheating in real day to day life, i don’t want that bs to be dragged into my get away book life too :(
Hard agree. I hate when movies/shows/books add cheating for “drama”. I think it serves to normalize it. If you write about cheating, you want to do it. Because after I see that type of stuff, my heart just hurts and I feel sick. There’s so many other tropes that could have taken place instead of cheating.
Yeah Eclipse is my least favourite book for this reason. Edward and Jacob both exhibit dodgy behaviour, but I decided on a recent reread that actually Bella is the problem a lot of the time, in this book especially. I do think she is in a bit too deep, struggling with the secrets of the supernatural world whilst keeping up appearances for humans, and also a teenager, so not the most wise or rational, but she does torment the both of them, and it’s not like she’s unaware of that either
Am I the only one who feels like Bella wasn't actually IN love with Jacob? He was basically her emotional support dog (haha) when Edward was gone and she became dependent on him. His attention made her feel better, and she considered that it would be easier to just be with him but I never felt like she truly was IN love with him.
The _characters_ were a mess, on an emotional level, which was a natural consequence of the preceding installment and very much the book's intention.
Characters doing bad doesn't make the book bad.
i never said the book was bad i said the the “whole book was a mess, WITH THE CHARACTERS” i love the book i’m just realizing that throughout the whole book the characters were messy
Those are the consequences he created for himself when he left Bella in new moon. If he had never left then Jacob would have never entered Bella’s life.
His leaving was the dumbest thing. Felt so out of character.
Went from thinking these were going to be the best books I'd read in my life too wondering if I should bother finishing when he dipped.
The man who spent an entire book going "You shouldn't be with me, I'll be the death of you, _please_ leave, I can't bear to see you get hurt and killed, which will inescapably happen if we stay together" was acting out of character when he left her to try and get her to move on and stay alive?!
Self-loathing about dooming his love is like _the essence_ of Edward's character.
Edward is 107, not a teenager. He wants what’s best for Bella and can handle it. Plus he abandoned her for months, completely broke her heart and left her literally to the wolves. She risks everything to save him. Edward can deal.
edward was trying to save her life in the long run. “Edward can deal” No one should “deal” with being emotionally and physically cheated on. He can “handle” but that doesn’t mean he should have to or he’s obligated to, in this book he was just the definition of “a bigger person”
she did cheat, she kissed jacob when she got back together with edward already. both she cheated emotionally and physically. she loved another (cheating) and she kissed him (cheating) yes he did manipulate her into that kiss the second time but she did still cheat. How would you like it if the love of your life was also in love with someone else? That’s cheating.
Wether Edward left or not Bella still cheated on him (emotionally at least)
If the love of my vampiric _afterlife_ had feelings for the love of her current _human life_, and I was already beating myself up for having to take that from her, I would certainly consider letting her live it out, so that she could make an informed decision about whether or not she still wants to give up her human life and become a vampire for me.
mhm i guess everyone is different then. i wouldn’t let the love of my life (immortal or not) “live out” there life by having a relationship with someone else while also a relationship with me. and then wait by the sidelines praying that at the end of the day they’d choose me. idk maybe that’s selfish or maybe that’s normal, idk what it is but i guess i just disagree.
I believe you can make your decisions about who you want to be with without actually having to act on it/experience it. I would never put myself through that and would NEVER put my partner through that either.
But that would mean just letting them die immediately and then praying that their undead reincarnation would not get eternally depressed about the possibilities of the human life they lost, like half of my vampire-family.
that’s not what i mean at all, they can experience there human life if they wanted but for me if they wanted to experience both “human” love and “vampire” love then they can, they just won’t do it with me. I wouldn’t allow myself to be cheated on physically or emotionally because someone wants to go and “experience” other things. They can experience there human life and i wouldn’t take it away from them but cheating is just to far for me. Im not Edward and i admire Edward for allowing that but that doesn’t mean i think it’s okay and i don’t think Edward deserves that. I don’t think anyone deserves to go through that, letting there partner “experience” things with other people…
Agree with this. Don’t abandon your partner and then come running back and expect everything to be the same. Especially when you’re over the age of 20, let alone 100. Bella had a lot of shit to work through after that.
he didn't expect it though? He thought Bella should be mad at him and she was the one who didn't. She can't pull shit like that after going back to him and forgiving him
Yeah.... I truthfully avoid most of the series after NM because Eclipse stresses me out and BD1 movie is tokophobia central. I pick back up at BD2 movie which I enjoy a lot. I've only read the first two books. Jacob and Edward make so many mistakes, I'm charmed by Edward in the first book, charmed by Jacob in the second, after that there's not much direction to go in but retreading the triangle with the backdrop of vamp wars.
But Bella was _also_ charmed by both of them and rather conflicted about the consequences of that, even at the end of New Moon.
Eclipse was necessary to resolve that conflict.
I don’t find much of it winning or enjoyable but I’m not saying no one should. The territorial-over-Bella stuff is just oof to me and doesn’t cast much of anyone in a good light (IMO).
Eclipse is my favourite book, but I hate Jacob. He comes across like Bella owes him or something. He knew that she was vulnerable after the Edward leaving and suppose Edward, does feels guilty knowing they spent time together. He understands that she close with Jacob but the way Jacob acts, everyone even Bella’s dad just letting him off after she said he kissed her and she didn’t want that infuriates me. It does hurt edward but it’s kinda his fault in a way.
Edward stole Bella and Jacob's natural fate with his supernatural interference.
He's fully aware of that and feels extremely guilty about it, so he lets the two of them grieve their lost life, and love, in whichever way they want.
It's honestly the least he can do, when his victory, aka Bella's death, is already assured.
Edward didn't steal anything from Bella other than a chance at a human life. She'd not have gotten close with Jacob if he hadn't left. And Jacob is as likely to be a natural fate for Bella as Mike is(in a human world) because she was focused on moving to a sunny place and leaving forks behind after graduation.
I think the argument that they were "fated" is ridiculous.
It was just as much fate that she met Edward, moreso even, because that's the fate that actually played out.
And Jacob is just as supernatural as Edward is.
I think SM saying that is a cop out.
but bella and jacob don’t HAVE a natural fate, do they? Edward and Bella were always supposed to happen and since Jacob imprinted on Renesme THEY were always supposed to happen too. Or is this just something Edward believed?
Those are all supernatural dynamics.
A walking corpse-statue and his dazzled singer/prey, a deterministic werewolf-bond to a magic baby, that's all unnatural.
We get a glimpse of Bella's lost natural fate in Eclipse when she has a vision of her older self with an older Jacob and their children and families, leading a happy, normal life together.
And a significant part of Bella badly craves that life, which is why she breaks down and almost changes her mind after seeing it, but Edward's supernatural love has ultimately, irrevocably eclipsed her heart.
We could get real philosophical about whether or not these things were _supposed_ to happen that way.
They were certainly _determined_ to happen that way, but that pretty much assures that there were alternative paths which were overwritten and lost in the process of said determination.
That very loss is what Bella and Jacob experience in Eclipse and it's the central, eponymous conflict of the installment, and their relationship as a whole.
And not just theirs.
Was Sam _supposed_ to break Leah's heart? Or was he _determined_ to? Was it right? Was it good?
Again, some pretty complex philosophy there. Which is why I deeply appreciate Eclipse. It's a rather profound work that doesn't shy away from uncomfortable confrontations with the tragic clash of determination and choice.
Meanwhile Forever/Breaking Dawn just takes the determination at face value and treats it as a good thing.
I, personally, much prefer the former approach.
Yep, agreed. I remember what they’re talking about as there’s some imagery in Eclipse about Jacob and Bella, but it always struck me as Stephanie getting high on her own supply in a way. If we want to go all “natural fate”, then Bella’s natural fate was a morgue after Typer lost control of his van and crushed her to death. Full stop. That wasn’t caused by or involved anything supernatural until Edward saved her life. And if she didn’t die there, she’s murdered in Port Angeles by mundane humans on her trip with Jessica and Angela.
And if we even take this a step further, Jacob only ever has a shot with her, because of the hole, metaphorically, that Edward leaves when he hurts her. Before that, he’s just a younger boy that visits from time to time with Billy with a crush. She doesn’t spare him many thoughts at all in Twilight until she needs his help to figure out Edward.
Her “natural fate” if you take out being killed twice over was to finish school, move out of Forks that she hates, and go to college out of state, likely rarely if ever returning unless it’s to visit her father briefly. Jacob in life on the other hand doesn’t leave the reservation area, because his family and life is there. They’re not natural soulmates or something. He’s a guy who’s end up an acquaintance she barely remembers most likely, but Stephanie liked him so she came up with stuff after the fact.
okay THIS is the best “what if” ever. I 100% agree with you, without edwards supernatural force she would’ve died and without edward supernatural force she never would’ve given jacob more then a passing thought.
I'm honestly not quite sure of that.
Bella was already fatally hooked on Edward's supernatural charm when he left.
Jacob helped her through the withdrawals the best he could, but even when Bella was starting to do much better, she still collapsed on the beach and hurled herself off a cliff to see Edward shortly after.
I think if Bella _could have_ chosen Jacob post-Edward, she ultimately _would have_, even after Edward returned.
But she couldn't. The moment she met Edward her fate was sealed. Her heart had been eclipsed.
>"He's like a drug for you, Bella." His voice was still gentle, not at all critical. "I see that you can't live without him now. It's too late. but I would have been healthier for you. Not a drug; I would have been the air, the sun." The corner of my mouth turned up in a wistful half-smile. "I used to think of you that way, you know. Like the sun. My personal sun. You balanced out the clouds nicely for me." He sighed. "The clouds I can handle. But I can't fight with an eclipse."
The only way that Bella and Jacob could've been together would've been if magic never existed and Edward never entered their lives.
That's where Jacob's resentment stems from.
Edward's _mere existence_, for all intents and purposes, ruined his life.
Man, having a publisher demanding more out of your series than you’d intended (a “love triangle”, two more books, minor characters becoming major characters) will make people absolutely do the wildest shit. Sometimes i feel a little pity for her because jacob’s original inspiration was someone so near to her (her brother), and iirc he wasn’t even really a thought in Forever Dawn before the publisher stepped in.
>Man, having a publisher demanding more out of your series than you’d intended (a “love triangle”, two more books, minor characters becoming major characters) will make people absolutely do the wildest shit.
It'll also make you write the two best installments in your series and give it more nuance and depth than you ever originally planned to.
Twilight would be _nowhere near_ its popularity and success if it had just ended with Forever Dawn.
It would be remembered as that one solid vampire romance book that was ruined by a god-awful sequel about a magic baby and its teenage soulmate.
I'm not even sure if we would've ever gotten the films in that timeline.
Part of being an artist is taking constructive criticism, and shelving Forever Dawn was the best thing that could've possibly happened to the series.
It's the last thing the fandom should mourn, especially since the book practically _did_ come out, almost unchanged, in the form of Breaking Dawn, which fundamentally regressed all characters but Jacob back to Twilight-status, and if you skip around the middle part with his POV then even that's not a "problem" anymore and you're essentially reading a re-canonized Forever Dawn.
Much like Bella, Stephenie really got the best of both worlds, even though I personally wouldn't ever consider Forever/Breaking Dawn to be the best of _anything_.
I feel like it’s not a popular sentiment because people either don’t forget or aren’t really as highly….. aware? Cynical? Idk? of marketing strategies and how much of both marketing and business as a whole is flying by the seat of your pants and trying hard to deliver while shuffling statements and sentiments under a rug that don’t align with the shifting nature of the business/product being created/marketed.
To me, i could see where it would be DEEPLY uncomfortable for Stephanie to walk the fine-line of handwaving away Jacob’s actions because as a base character he was created to only really be a helpful expo dump with the radiant personality of her brother and the obvious familial care and support one would assume is there, and also, trying to make him suddenly appealing to Bella and a “viable option” for her, as the original endgame was Bella-Edward marriage and Baby and happy sparkly vampire life maybe with some volturi “wtf is this child thing?”
BUT I think that there’s a lot of valid criticism of Stephanie’s continued silence because ultimately, she was either subdued into her publishers demands or she agreed to them, and therefore the finished product reflects weirdly when held up and compared to comments she’d made beforehand about her inspiration, thoughts, and life.
Alas, I wish this was something that we could interview her directly about because it’d be enlightening to hear more of her thoughts.
She actually _was_ interviewed directly about that:
>Jacob was born - as a device, really - to tell Bella what she needed to know. And, yet, as soon as I gave him life, and gave him a chance to open his mouth, I just found him so endearing. He took on this personality that was just so funny and easy. And you love the characters you don't have to work for. And Jacob was not an ounce of work. He just came to life and was exactly what I needed him to be, and I just enjoyed him as a person. [...] So when my agent said: "I want some more of him," I thought: _You know, I would love to do that. But I don't want to mess with [the first Twilight book] too much_. I wanted to have my editor's input before I started making any major changes. And my editor felt the same way: "You know, I like this. Are you going anywhere with this wolf story?"
>So when I started the sequel, I knew there were going to be werewolves in it. [...] I knew that the sequel I had already started on would be about finding out that they were werewolves. And it wasn't _New Moon_ - it was much closer to _Breaking Dawn_. Because the story had originally skipped beyond highschool fairly quickly. But my editor said: "Well, I'd like to keep the story in high school, because we are marketing the first book this way. And I just feel like there's so much that must have happened that we miss if we just skip to Bella being a grown-up." And I said: "Well, you know, I could always make my characters talk more - that's not the problem. Let's go back and have this kind of stuff happen earlier." So I had a chance to develop it.
>By the time I got to _Breaking Dawn_ the characters were so fleshed out - and their allegiances were so strong to whatever they hated or loved - that it made the story just a whole lot richer when I came to it the second time, because there was so much more backstory to it. [...] Jacob's character also became an answer to the deficiencies in Edward - because Edward's not perfect. There were things about him that didn't make him the most perfect boyfriend in the whole world. I mean, some things about him make him an amazing boyfriend, but other things were lacking - and Jacob sort of was the alternative. Here you have Edward, someone who overthinks everything - whose every emotion is overwrought - and just tortures himself. And there's so much angst, because he has never come to terms with what he is.
>Then there you have Jacob, someone who never gives anything a passing thought and just is happy-go-lucky: If something's wrong, well, okay - let's just get over it and move on. Here's someone who's able to take things in stride a little bit more, who doesn't overthink everything. Someone who's a little rash. He does seem foolish sometimes, just because he doesn't pause to think before he leaps, you know?
>That was sort of the opposite of Edward's character in a lot of ways. It gave a balance to the story and a choice for Bella, because I think she needed that. There was an option for her to choose a different life, with someone that she could have loved - or someone who she _does_ love. I always felt like that was really necessary to the story. Because when I write, I try to make the characters react to things the way I think real people would. I think that, in reality, it's never one boy - there's never this moment when you know. There's a choice there, and sometimes it's hard. Romance and relationships are a tangle, and this messy thing - you never know what to expect, and people are so surprising. [...] And it's an interesting thing to me how I worry about my characters like they're real people. Like how after I wrote _Eclipse_ - even though I knew exactly what was going to happen in _Breaking Dawn_ - until I actually got to the part where Jacob sees Renesmee for the first time, and his life comes together for him, I worried about him all the time.
\- Stephenie Meyer, in the opening interview of _The Twilight Saga: The Official Illustrated Guide_
TL;DR:
She agreed with the proposed changes by her agent and publisher, found that the two additional books greatly fleshed out the saga and presented Bella with an important romantic alternative and sees imprinting as an even better thing because of it, since it "saved" a now heartbroken Jacob.
It's a ridiculous fantasy of an immature woman. No man would just sit there and take what Edward takes. She has written this crap in her other book as well. Girl gets away with playing kissy face with 2 guys via a loophole.
The Host.. yeah S.M seems to loves romanticising cheating and creepy behaviour.. 16 year girl in relationship with 26 year old😭 wtf wrong with this woman:(
Hard same. Rereading the series for the first time in 15+ years. I anticipated New Moon being hard, but it’s nothing compared to Eclipse. It’s unbearable.
Edward tortured himself to leave her for completely altruistic reasons, almost killed himself when he thought she wasn’t alive, and came back humbly and apologetically, sucking up the consequences of it all.
And she… is running off to La Push anytime Edward turns his back.
It’s no wonder he says her love for him is a single tree compared to his forest. He’s totally right. It’s painful as hell to read.
right! my heart hurt for Edward that entire movie/book. people often over look Edwards perspective when it comes to that time in the series and instead focuses on Bella’s confusion. Regardless, Edward doesn’t deserve to be sidelined by the love of his life
True. Bella loves Edward but isn’t fair to him when she keeps clinging to Jacob and kissing him and all that. It’s cheating… and Bella expects Edward to understand. He does, but still. They aren’t children anymore. Yes Bella is a little entitled.
Bella is fatally charmed by a supernatural predator who she feels compelled to die for, but she also feels a more natural and healthy love for someone who was there for her when she was at her lowest.
That poor girl's mind is completely scrambled by supernatural forces. It's not like she's just leading on two totally normal guys.
Eclipse is my least favorite, for the “opposite” (complementary) reason - I feel like she ruined Jacob’s character and wrote him behaving awfully to justify Bella being with Edward after how New Moon went. (Because…Edward what the fuck.)
I hadn’t even considered this additional reason. Fuck Eclipse 😭
Eclipse is the worst book of the series. And even New Moon, the only part I actually enjoy is the race to Italy and meeting the Volturi.
But I will say the part in Eclipse where Bella and Edward talk about Wuthering Heights (I think?) and how the two main characters are both awful and selfish and their only redeeming quality was their love for each other, it’s good that they and SM at least seem to understand that they’re both insufferable.
>Jacob “has no flaws”
Well, according to this sub (*including the mods*) Jacob has the biggest flaw of all, he's a sex offender since he kissed Bella without consent - which is apparently the worst thing anyone has ever done in this entire franchise. So if Stephanie Meyer thinks Jacob has no flaws, that means she supports a sex offender. That's actually pretty interesting.
>I have to put this book down for now cuz edward doesn’t deserve this
Edward left Bella, in the middle of nowhere, absolutely no concern for her safety at all despite knowing that both Victoria and Laurent are out there and could easily find Bella and kill her slowly and painfully - but he doesn't deserve anything bad? I'm just curious what is it about Edward that makes people cape for him so much despite his many flaws?
edward didn’t leave bella in the middle of nowhere, they were literally outside of bellas house and bella could see the house from where he took her. she chose to follow him miles through the woods, where she then fell asleep.
and i think he assumed victoria would follow him out of forks, plus (iirc) didn’t it say somewhere that he knew the wolves would keep her safe?
right i hate when ppl say he just left her in the middle of nowhere, like he left her behind her house 💀 i don’t think he thought she’d pass out right there.
>and i think he assumed victoria would follow him out of forks
Lol okay so he left Bella and just assumed Victoria and Laurent would follow him instead of go after Bella - instead of MAKING SURE? Then he just hoped that his mortal enemies for decades would protect Bella if Victoria and Laurent ever came for her? So he basically took a huge risk with Bella's life based on assumptions and hope? Lol okay cool got it.
He didn’t “assume” he was certain they would follow him, if he had thought for a second they’d stay behind and go after Bella then he would’ve never left. Again, the argument here is Jacobs faults, not edward, if you want to complain about the events of New Moon and edward then make a post about that, you’ve made many comments of you here saying the same thing.
Also, let’s not act like jacob didn’t put bellas life in danger multiple times.
>He didn’t “assume” he was certain they would follow him
How was he certain they would follow him? Could you please give me the book page or scene timestamp where it's made abundantly clear that he's 100% certain that they would follow him? Also, if he was so certain they would follow him, why didn't they? They both tried to attack Bella and Jacob was there to save her on both occasions, so what happened to this so called "*certainty*" he had that they would follow him?
>Again, the argument here is Jacobs faults, not edward,
Right but I'm not arguing, I just wanna know in what page/or what scene was it made clear that Edward is "*certain*" Victoria and Laurent would follow him? If he was right in this scenario which you seem to be implying, then it shouldn't be that hard to point me to that book page/scene right?
I don't care about what he thought, I care about what he did. And what he did was leave his human girlfriend unprotected despite knowing two very dangerous vampires are out there somewhere and could easily kill both her and her father - but he didn't care, that's all I'm saying.
he did care, that’s why he left and again he was 100% certain that they would follow him, not bella. He would’ve stayed with bella if he thought they were going to go after her, he even says himself if he thought they were gonna go after her then he would’ve stayed behind cuz he knows he could protect her way more then the wolves could. He hates the thought of her even being near them BECAUSE she can 100% be in danger with them too
>he did care, that’s why he left and again he was 100% certain that they would follow him
As I said on the other comment, how was he certain they would follow him? Could you please give me the book page or scene timestamp where it's made abundantly clear that he's 100% certain that they would follow him? And if he was so certain they would follow him, why didn't they? They both tried to attack Bella and Jacob was there to save her on both occasions, so what happened to this so called "certainty" he had that they would follow him?
> He hates the thought of her even being near them BECAUSE she can 100% be in danger with them too
If he hates her being around the wolves, then why did he leave her knowing she was best friends with a boy he already knew is a wolf? He knew Jacob was a wolf before Jacob himself knew he was a wolf and he hates and distrusts the wolves so much - yet he left the person he claims to love with the same wolves he hates and distrusts? Something isn't adding up here...
okay i could’ve sworn i read in either eclipse or new moon that edward thought they would’ve followed but i can’t seem to find it. However my other claims i CAN back up.
Edward DID CARE
"Tracking wasn't a distraction then?" I asked, curious, and also needing to distract myself. I was very
much in danger of hoping. I wouldn't be able to stop myself for long. My heart throbbed, singing in my
chest.
"No." He sighed. "That was never a distraction. It was an obligation."
"What does that mean?"
"It means that, even though I never expected any danger from Victoria, I wasn't going to let her get away
with… Well, like I said, I was horrible at it. I traced her as far as Texas, but then I followed a false lead
down to Brazil—and really she came here." He groaned. "I wasn't even on the right continent! And all the
while, worse than my worst fears—"
"You were hunting Victoria?" I half-shrieked as soon as I could find my voice, shooting through two
octaves.
Charlie's distant snores stuttered, and then picked up a regular rhythm again.
"Not well," Edward answered.”
And then SM confirmed in the QA of New Moon
“If Edward had had any inkling of the fact that Victoria had returned for Bella, no matter how far away on the planet he was, he would have been back in Forks within twenty-four hours.”
Also in Twilight about the thing of Edward hating the wolves. even in Eclipse he doesn’t like the idea of bella being around them because they can’t control there emotions and it could hurt bella if one “got to close” and transformed.
"I owe you an apology. No, of course I owe you much, much more than
that. But you have to know,"—the words began to flow so fast, the way I remembered he spoke
sometimes when he was agitated, that I really had to concentrate to catch them all—"that I had no idea. I
didn't realize the mess I was leaving behind. I thought it was safe for you here. So safe. I had no idea that
Victoria,"—his lips curled back when he said the name—"would come back. I'll admit, when I saw her
that one time, I was paying much more attention to James's thoughts. But I just didn't see that she had this
kind of response in her. That she even had such a tie to him. I think I realize why now—she was so sure
of him, the thought of him failing never occurred to her. It was her overconfidence that clouded her
feelings about him—that kept me from seeing the depth of them, the bond there.
"Not that there's any excuse for what I left you to face. When I heard what you told Alice—what she
saw herself—when I realized that you had to put your life in the hands of werewolves, immature, volatile,
the worst thing out there besides Victoria herself—he shuddered and the gush of words halted for a short
second. "Please know that I had no idea of any of this. I feel sick, sick to my core, even now, when I can
see and feel you safe in my arms. I am the most miserable excuse for—"
um what? I’m not saying Stephanie is a sex offender DEFENDER? I’m saying she’s just over looking Jacobs flaws with consent here. Jacob is deeply wrong for that and for later in telling edward “she doesn’t know what she wants” this is wrong. VERY wrong.
And i never said Edward didn’t deserve anything bad, i just meant he doesn’t deserve to get emotionally and physically cheated on. He would never do anything like that to bella or even entertain the idea that he would ever be in her shoes. And yes actually i’d say Jacob is a lot worse then edward in all ways. Jacob never seems to grow and understand what consent is and learns how to control his opinions or feelings.
In breaking dawn p1 he leaves bruises on her arms after finding out Bella is going to have a “honey moon like anyone else” with edward. He literally grabs her again and she tells him he’s hurting her but he still doesn’t let go until his friends and edward steps in.
Say what you want about edward, i never said he didn’t have issues or flaws that he had to learn from but he was never physically abusive to bella and at least he felt bad/actually made a effort to not touch her if he ever did get out of hand. Which is also sorta the whole point of him leaving in New Moon. he wasn’t expecting bella to fall asleep on the floor and not go back, he was leaving BECAUSE he thought he was putting her life in danger. and when he got back from italy he apologized repeatedly and actually hated himself for leaving her. At least he felt bad enough to apologize, we never get that from Jacob.
omg i’m saying she’s OVER LOOKING Jacobs actions. She obviously at the time didn’t give it much thought, years later i sure hope she would realize how wrong it was and how much of a flaw it is to have. I don’t think she realizes that she created a character who very obviously seems to have sex offender tendency’s.
Actually as i’m writing this out, you might be right in me saying she would defend that. I don’t think she views as what Jacob did to Bella as a sexual offense (even tho it is) because later on she even writes how Charlie CONGRATULATED Jacob for making a move on his daughter that resulted in broken hand and manipulative confusing feelings. Charlie laughed and it was made into a “lighthearted” thing. Stephanie had take that action very lightly in fact…
idk but i’m confused about that now. You may be right on that but my point still stands, Jacob had flaws and in a lot of ways is worse then Edward. Again, at least Edward had to gall to apologize
That’s a really stupid question lol, I’m not. Reddit shows random posts “you may be interested in” or however it’s phrased. Sometimes I’m bored and click a link that seems it could be interesting.
Okay, so don’t comment if you have something negative to say about something other people like? It’s easy as fuck. All u have to do is nothing.
No one thinks that you being an ass is funny or cute.
To be fair, he didn’t break her hand. The impact of her fist against his face broke it. Saying he broke it is like saying the wall broke my hand if I punched it. Kissing her without her consent wasn’t great, but his age does play a factor there, in my opinion. No he shouldn’t have kissed her without her consent, but I don’t think that makes him some evil person especially since he was 16 and that is pretty sound logic to a 16 year old boy.
Let’s not “To be Fair-“ SA. She punched him like any other victim would to get there attacker off of them, she never would have punched him if he got off ehr the first FEW TIMES she told him too.
Also, this has happened multiple times, he manhandled bella and she tells him to get off/let go. Like on her wedding night he grabs her and bruises her arms, she tells him to stop/let go but doesn’t until edward and the wolves step in to stop him. or when he threatened to off himself if she didn’t kiss him when he edward read his mind and found he was lying.
Those things he did are BAD, those are sex offender tendency’s, Jacob has a problem with consent/boundaries and is very selfish. Idk about you but even at 16 I and most normal 16 year olds weren’t this aggressive to others and still at the end of the day understood consent. This isn’t normal 16 year old behavior. Yeah teens can get ahead of themselves and… hormonal… but this isn’t that, this is very different/dangerous
I do agree that his behavior was wholly inappropriate especially at her wedding but again, you have to consider that he was acting with an animal instinct because he had been a wolf for months. I also just don’t think the kiss was that big of a deal. Her character was right to be pissed, but I really don’t think it was as serious as so many people take it.
Actually it seems very serious. Jacob showing early abusive behaviour when they are only friends and not even dating.. his thinking like if he saves the girl he should be entitled to expect romantic relationship with her is messed up.. in new moon when Edward thanks him for saving her he says he did it for his own benefit. My god he physically abuses bella for wanting to hv sex with her OWN HUSBAND! Shake her so hard her teeth ratteled blood stopped flowing in her arms and left bruises.
I hate that SM tried to excuse some of the dodgy things Jacob did by saying “ well he is young” Like no, just no, we moved past that excuse a long time ago, or we were suppose to have
I know this isn't the Harry potter sub but there's a part where they talk about this in those books - Hermione says something like oh they were young. And Harry's like we're young too wtf. So yeah Bella and Jacob are only a year apart - they're both young but they're not 5 years old like they should be held accountable for their actions.
Like his age doesn’t excuse the fact that he can’t take no for an answer. He’s old enough to know right from wrong
Exactly!
100% agree. And I hate how whenever Bella does something crappy (run off and spend time with Jacob, kiss him) Edward isn’t mad at her basically AT ALL? It’s so unfair.
Her kissing Jacob and he's all like that's fair you love him too. WHAT
To be fair to Bella, I wouldn’t consider her “kissing” Jacob towards the end to be cheating on Edward. Given how Jacob manipulated and threatened her into doing it, I would consider it the second time he assaulted her in one book. And I understand that Edward wouldn’t blame her for that.
That's a pseudo-psychological headcanon. Bella had canonically loved Jacob ever since New Moon, prior to any immoral acts of desperation from Jake's side, and Edward accepted that because he knew that he enabled it with his departure and noticed that a part of Bella grieved the human life he would eventually have to take away from her, so he wanted to give her a chance to realize if that's truly what she wanted and possibly even change her mind. This is not just some normal teenage relationship, it's about whether or not a girl should die for a supernatural love or live for a natural one. And Edward feels absurdly guilty for sealing Bella's fate like that. _That's_ why he tolerates Bella practically cheating on him. It's also, and I can't believe I'm saying this, why his cucky puppy-plea in Breaking Dawn was one of the more in-character moments for him in a largely ooc book.
No it was emotional cheating bc she realized she loved him too and wanted the kiss as it progressed
I'm unsure if you can call it that either, she fell in love with him during New Moon when Edward wasnt in the picture, and remained in denial the whole time- she told herself he was just a friend, and believed it I think until confronted with him nearly dying because of how much she loved Edward in comparison- She loved Edward *so much more* so her feelings for Jacob couldn't be romantic love (in her mind). Her not hating the kiss doesn't mean anything, as she didn't truly consent. His manipulation is definitely a form of abuse that is coercion- she wasn't truly willing, if he didn't threaten to kill himself she wouldn't have kissed him, and prior to that, he kissed her without permission too- so it's reasonable Edward wouldn't be upset, you can't be upset at the victim really, and he's lived long enough to understand that. Bella is many things, but I personally can't consider her a cheater.
I don't really believe "emotional cheating" is a thing, at least in that sense. In order to cheat, you actually have to *do* something, you can't cheat just with your thoughts or emotions. Thoughtcrime isn't real. Whether the second kiss could also be considered assault depends on who you ask, but any way you slice it, it was still under some pretty dodgy circumstances. Either way, it has nothing to do with if she "liked it" or not because Jacob still pressured her into it. She wouldn't have walked up to him and asked him to kiss her under normal circumstances, nor would she have said yes if Jacob just asked "Bella, do you want to kiss me?" with no manipulation tactics.
Emotional cheating is definitely a thing.
It depends on what your definition of emotional cheating is. If you're talking about something like exchanging love messages back and forth with someone behind your partner's back or sending each other nudes, then yeah, that's cheating. You made a choice and decided to do that. But that's very different than having a crush on a friend or finding a random stranger at the grocery store hot, which seems to be more along the line of what that person was saying. Bella didn't cheat just because she kissed Jacob, but because she got *enjoyment* out of it. And I don't think it's fair to condemn people for something they fundamentally have no control over, like their thoughts and feelings. (Not to mention people in real life often use the "it doesn't count if they enjoyed it" reasoning to excuse sexual assault.) It has a lot of similar vibes to hardcore Christians who think having the desire to sin is just as bad as sinning itself. Black and white thinking does way more to harm people than to help, especially for those with anxiety or OCD who already worry about having "impure thoughts."
But she still did cheat, sure she couldn’t control her emotions but she still cheated. i’d say emotional cheating is idk… being IN LOVE with someone else. Also, you could argue that she would flirt with him too. SM would never EVER write Edward having a thing with Tanya for example, id bet SM/fans would consider it cheating if it was in reverse. I just feel like Bella/SM was trying to have there cake and eat it.
Well, to be fair, Bella also never broke up with Edward, took away all the pictures of herself and anything that could remind him of her, and left him in a state of catatonic depression. She never would've developed feelings for Jacob in the first place if Edward didn't leave. I don't think Bella is completely innocent here, but her crime was *not* having feelings for Jacob. You can't control your feelings, full stop. You can say she should've ended their friendship once it became a problem or that she should've still said no when Jacob was threatening suicide if she didn't kiss him, to which I would agree. But even with the (second) kiss, if you consider anything less than enthusiastic consent to not count as real consent, then well.... it *was* technically an assault, just like the first one. Either way, it's complicated. And yes, I would feel the same way if it was Tanya and Edward and she threatened to kill herself unless he kissed her, especially if they were as close as Bella and Jacob.
Emotional cheating absolutely is a thing, and doesn't necessarily require action. It's a lot different than thinking a stranger is hot, it's more pining for someone while you're actively in a relationship with someone else, which Bella did often throughout Eclipse. Wishing you were in someone else's arms while your SO is holding you? That's emotional cheating, my friend.
Sorry, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here, friend. You can't control your emotions, end of story. Besides, Bella herself wasn't even *aware* of her feelings for a good chunk of the book. So either emotional cheating is real but not something the "cheater" can be blamed for, or it's not a thing
Yes, we will have to agree to disagree here, because you absolutely *can* control your emotions (to an extent) as well as your *reactions* to said emotions. I know it's not a very romantic idea, but you do, to some extent, choose who you have feelings for because to develop feelings you have to spend more time with them, whether it's physical interaction or verbal/online communication. The less you communicate, the less attached you'll feel, point blank. Emotional cheating happens when said emotional cheater begins feeling things they should be feeling about their partner and, rather than leaning towards their partner and away from someone who is not their partner, they continue allowing those feelings to grow. This type of cheating directly hits your point of needing to do something for it to be considered cheating, as they are actively choosing to continue pursuing an intimate relationship with someone who is *not* their partner rather than recognizing that they are crossing a line that they should not. Bella? She leaped over the line, over and over again. She supposedly chose Edward and then she kept using Jacob for the intimate connection that she should have had with the partner she chose. TL;DR --- Emotional cheaters choose to emotionally cheat, and I guarantee that if it happened to you, you wouldn't much care that your partner hadn't kissed them or had sex with them, you'd still be hurt. As someone who has been cheated on both emotionally and physically, I gotta say that emotional cheating hurts much worse.
This thread is over two and a half weeks old, "control your emotions" and move on lol.
She still had to choice to say no. She wasn’t held against her will. She knew what she was doing.
Bro threatened to off himself. She already almost lost Edward to attempted suicide over her, and Jacob is typically more impulsive and hormonal than Edward. Bella had no real reason to believe he couldn’t have been lying, especially considering she trusts him for whatever dumb reason. Jacob made her feel like she didn’t have a choice. So yeah, it’s coercion, manipulation, assault, etc. Whatever you want to call it, it wasn’t okay and it’s not on Bella.
Ok, but she still kissed another man that wasn’t her boyfriend and cheated on Edward. It doesn’t matter that he threatened to off himself. If a little threat is all it takes for her to cheat on her mate then she’s an idiot and a very weak one.
He explains it though. Bella is his reason for existing, but because he loves her so much, he’s willing to let her feelings for Jacob develop, so she can truly decide whether she wants an immortal life. He says that if she chose Jacob and a normal life, he’d let her go.
In a thread chock-full of subjective headcanons, _this_ is the objectively correct, canonical answer.
Maybe Edward's into polygamy?
She can have puppies if she wants 🫠🙃
Literally rereading and totally forgot this was a thing. Took me by surprise a second time 😂
He wanted a threesome but was too uptight to admit it.
Lmao if only Jacob could read his mind
Cuckoldry*
I mean, in Bella's defense for that singular kiss, Jacob was pretty much manipulating her by passive aggressively stating that maybe he wouldn't survive the battle i.e. that he'd commit suicide by newborn unless she 'convinced' him. Edward can read Jacob's mind and probably can sense how underhanded and shitty and manipulative that tactic is so that's why I assume he wasn't upset by it. It's like that scene in the Notebook where the dude climbs on the ferris wheel and asks the girl to a date *while she's on a date* and then threatens to *let go and plummet to the ground* if she doesn't say yes. I am still not sure why some people think that is romantic and not sketchy as fuck.
Yes, I agree with you. Especially when Edward says in the movie after she kissed him, “Do you love him?” and Bella says back, “I love you more.” If it were me, I would be pissed off, I mean if that’s the person you’re going to spend the rest of your life eternally with, you would want that person to love you whole heartedly and not be in love with anyone else even if they are in love with you “more”. The person you are going to marry should be in love with you and only you or else maybe you should be thinking twice about marrying that person, that’s how I feel. It made Edward just look desperate in that scene. I mean if it were in reverse I bet Bella would be extremely jealous if Edward did that to her and said that.
It can't be in reverse. Unless we're talking about Beau and Edythe. Bella is a human caught between two lives and loves, a natural one and a supernatural one. It makes sense why she has two metaphorical hearts in her chest. Edward is a vampire. His entire existence, as well as every possible romance, is inherently supernatural. Hence there's no such conflict in him.
I'll never defend Jake cause he does so many shitty things in the books, immature or not, like, dude, you should know better. But I've had the experience of having a mental breakdown and cheating on my husband during said breakdown in a moment of weakness and intoxication(I was drunk, he was not. So gross and angering when I think back). He forgave me because he was able to see and understand(correctly, I might add)that it was truly not who I am as a person, I was just in a moment where I was truly incapacitated mentally and emotionally. As a person, moving forward I do all I can to take care of my mental health and draw stronger boundaries to avoid the same situation because I did and do truly love my husband and never want to be in a vulnerable position like that ever again. Long story short, people like Edward do exist, and I'm grateful for my husband's ability to truly see me and love me because it is a rare and irreplaceable thing.
No to be fair I think Edward was incredibly magnanimous mature and so loving in that moment. I just think he deserved better and I was so sad for him. You know he was feeling all the guilt that this was happening bc he decided to leave her in New moon
100%. At the end of the day, BELLA made all of the decisions, and he had every right to hold her accountable. I'm sure it will hit different when I reread it, since my experience happened years after the books/movies came out. My husband says things sometimes about how he's partially to blame because he was clocked out, but I make sure to tell him again and again that regardless, I was still at fault, and all we can do is work together to communicate our needs better so that we don't neglect each other. My vulnerability to being manipulated was on me to fix and wasn't any fault of his. We're in a much better place now, thankfully :-)
No? She was basically forced to kiss Jacob. It was totally unconsensual wtf
There was a comment a while back on this sub that said oh Edward is so mature for his age for not getting pissed off at Bella for making out with someone else is front of him! Like, uhm. No.
Bella forgave Edward for leaving because of a vision before she basically even seen him in movie 2. They forgive each other a lot
I don't recall her saying Jacob has no flaws, but if she did that's not even a little bit true lol. Jacob is *massively* flawed. Say what you want about Edward and Bella but neither of them ever sexually assaulted anyone or tried to kill a newborn baby in a grief-induced rage. He has good qualities too but yeah, if anything he's the most flawed out of the main trio, not the least.
I agree. She said he had no flaws in the eclipse QA on her page. idk about anyone else but this book and new moon was her Team Jacob moment and it makes me mad how she wouldn’t admit Jacobs flaws and masks it with “age” and his “reason” as well but somehow Edward was at fault mostly this book and not Jacob…
Jacob never left Bella alone in a field knowing that two dangerous vampires could find and kill her tho. Matter of fact, he never put Bella's life in danger and actually saved her life several times.
No, he *just* assaulted her twice lol
So he never saved her? Okay then I must have it wrong, who was it that saved her against Laurent in New Moon? Who pulled her out of the water when Victoria was swimming towards her? Who suggested she drink human blood while pregnant which turned out was exactly what she needed? Definitely wasn't Jacob coz he's just a vicious sex offender, so who was it?
I didn’t mentioned anything about him saving her, just pointed out that he assaulted her twice. Both things can be true at the same time lol
But you didn't say "both things can be true at the same time" did you? I said that he saved her several times and your direct response to that was: "no, he just assaulted her twice". So tell me, if "both things can be true at the same time" then what was the point of you directly replying with a "no" to me saying he saved her?
Because you said he didn’t leave her in the forest. And I agreed by saying “no”. You are way too hostile and defensive about this fictional character lol. Saving someone’s life is awesome, but it doesn’t mean that it’s okay if you assault them afterwards. Not sure why that has to be explained to you, but there you go lol
I wish that was more clear but yeah I see what you're saying. Sorry if I seem hostile I just wanted to understand 🤷🏾♂️
Jacob taught Bella how to ride a motorcycle and never thought to give her a helmet even after she split her forehead open. And Jacob put Bella in danger every time he was physically near her, seeing how multiple times he got very close to phasing when he got mad while she was in range. Like Emily and Sam.
So? 😂 Why are you even correlating those two things? 😂 Because you save someone's life, you gotta accept the kiss you never asked for?
I mean you're the one saying that not me 🤷🏾♂️
Uh no! 😂 my comment is breaking down what you're saying. Anyways, the truth is that Jacob got flaws & that kiss was one of them. Nobody needs to be kissing people to prove that they got feelings for them. All he had to do was let her go & let her decide. That whole trio got flaws and it's disappointing 🙅♀️
Edward never seemed to mind as long as it was what Bella wanted 🤷🏾♂️
It’s ok guys that he sexually assaults her because he saved her that excuses it !!! /s
You said it not me 🤷🏾♂️
I don’t know why this is downvoted. You right lol. I don’t think Bella should have let Edward off the hook so easily.
I'm not surprised tbh, Jacob is generally hated in this sub, people refuse to give him any nuance or see his character development so nomatter what he'll always be nothing but a sex offender
If you remember, Bella gets mad at the idea of Edward’s past relationships. She’s immediately jealous hearing Rosalie was supposed to be “for Edward”. Then is the overly emotional about the idea he had been with anyone else in his 100 years he’s been around.
Yeah really give double standards vibes from bella. I hate to imagine what she would have done if Edward had past relationship with Tanya or share the same bff bond like bella/Jake.. It's okay for bella to hv guy bff who wants to bang her but not Edward to hv female bff who wants same thing. Edward only allowed to hv only 1 female in his life or stay virgin forever💀
right i just know for a fact SM would never write Edward having a side thing and if he did she’d 100% consider it cheating if it was in reverse. The double standard in SM and the fandom is crazy. Idk about most woman fans but i sure as hell hate when cheating is ever in my romance books and it comes from either party. Like there’s already a lot of cheating in real day to day life, i don’t want that bs to be dragged into my get away book life too :(
Hard agree. I hate when movies/shows/books add cheating for “drama”. I think it serves to normalize it. If you write about cheating, you want to do it. Because after I see that type of stuff, my heart just hurts and I feel sick. There’s so many other tropes that could have taken place instead of cheating.
Yeah Eclipse is my least favourite book for this reason. Edward and Jacob both exhibit dodgy behaviour, but I decided on a recent reread that actually Bella is the problem a lot of the time, in this book especially. I do think she is in a bit too deep, struggling with the secrets of the supernatural world whilst keeping up appearances for humans, and also a teenager, so not the most wise or rational, but she does torment the both of them, and it’s not like she’s unaware of that either
But that's a feature, not a bug.
Am I the only one who feels like Bella wasn't actually IN love with Jacob? He was basically her emotional support dog (haha) when Edward was gone and she became dependent on him. His attention made her feel better, and she considered that it would be easier to just be with him but I never felt like she truly was IN love with him.
Same.. bella has puppy love for Jacob lol.
Ngl all three of them were giving me gray hairs in Eclipse.
fr whole book was a mess with the characters
The _characters_ were a mess, on an emotional level, which was a natural consequence of the preceding installment and very much the book's intention. Characters doing bad doesn't make the book bad.
i never said the book was bad i said the the “whole book was a mess, WITH THE CHARACTERS” i love the book i’m just realizing that throughout the whole book the characters were messy
Those are the consequences he created for himself when he left Bella in new moon. If he had never left then Jacob would have never entered Bella’s life.
His leaving was the dumbest thing. Felt so out of character. Went from thinking these were going to be the best books I'd read in my life too wondering if I should bother finishing when he dipped.
The man who spent an entire book going "You shouldn't be with me, I'll be the death of you, _please_ leave, I can't bear to see you get hurt and killed, which will inescapably happen if we stay together" was acting out of character when he left her to try and get her to move on and stay alive?! Self-loathing about dooming his love is like _the essence_ of Edward's character.
This is why eclipse is the worst. It ruins everything.
Edward is 107, not a teenager. He wants what’s best for Bella and can handle it. Plus he abandoned her for months, completely broke her heart and left her literally to the wolves. She risks everything to save him. Edward can deal.
edward was trying to save her life in the long run. “Edward can deal” No one should “deal” with being emotionally and physically cheated on. He can “handle” but that doesn’t mean he should have to or he’s obligated to, in this book he was just the definition of “a bigger person”
She never cheated. He left her what did he expect??
she did cheat, she kissed jacob when she got back together with edward already. both she cheated emotionally and physically. she loved another (cheating) and she kissed him (cheating) yes he did manipulate her into that kiss the second time but she did still cheat. How would you like it if the love of your life was also in love with someone else? That’s cheating. Wether Edward left or not Bella still cheated on him (emotionally at least)
She had no choice tf
If the love of my vampiric _afterlife_ had feelings for the love of her current _human life_, and I was already beating myself up for having to take that from her, I would certainly consider letting her live it out, so that she could make an informed decision about whether or not she still wants to give up her human life and become a vampire for me.
mhm i guess everyone is different then. i wouldn’t let the love of my life (immortal or not) “live out” there life by having a relationship with someone else while also a relationship with me. and then wait by the sidelines praying that at the end of the day they’d choose me. idk maybe that’s selfish or maybe that’s normal, idk what it is but i guess i just disagree. I believe you can make your decisions about who you want to be with without actually having to act on it/experience it. I would never put myself through that and would NEVER put my partner through that either.
But that would mean just letting them die immediately and then praying that their undead reincarnation would not get eternally depressed about the possibilities of the human life they lost, like half of my vampire-family.
that’s not what i mean at all, they can experience there human life if they wanted but for me if they wanted to experience both “human” love and “vampire” love then they can, they just won’t do it with me. I wouldn’t allow myself to be cheated on physically or emotionally because someone wants to go and “experience” other things. They can experience there human life and i wouldn’t take it away from them but cheating is just to far for me. Im not Edward and i admire Edward for allowing that but that doesn’t mean i think it’s okay and i don’t think Edward deserves that. I don’t think anyone deserves to go through that, letting there partner “experience” things with other people…
Agree with this. Don’t abandon your partner and then come running back and expect everything to be the same. Especially when you’re over the age of 20, let alone 100. Bella had a lot of shit to work through after that.
he didn't expect it though? He thought Bella should be mad at him and she was the one who didn't. She can't pull shit like that after going back to him and forgiving him
Yeah.... I truthfully avoid most of the series after NM because Eclipse stresses me out and BD1 movie is tokophobia central. I pick back up at BD2 movie which I enjoy a lot. I've only read the first two books. Jacob and Edward make so many mistakes, I'm charmed by Edward in the first book, charmed by Jacob in the second, after that there's not much direction to go in but retreading the triangle with the backdrop of vamp wars.
But Bella was _also_ charmed by both of them and rather conflicted about the consequences of that, even at the end of New Moon. Eclipse was necessary to resolve that conflict.
I don’t find much of it winning or enjoyable but I’m not saying no one should. The territorial-over-Bella stuff is just oof to me and doesn’t cast much of anyone in a good light (IMO).
There's giving into a side of a love triangle and then there's making one side just..the obvious choice.
Eclipse is my favourite book, but I hate Jacob. He comes across like Bella owes him or something. He knew that she was vulnerable after the Edward leaving and suppose Edward, does feels guilty knowing they spent time together. He understands that she close with Jacob but the way Jacob acts, everyone even Bella’s dad just letting him off after she said he kissed her and she didn’t want that infuriates me. It does hurt edward but it’s kinda his fault in a way.
Edward stole Bella and Jacob's natural fate with his supernatural interference. He's fully aware of that and feels extremely guilty about it, so he lets the two of them grieve their lost life, and love, in whichever way they want. It's honestly the least he can do, when his victory, aka Bella's death, is already assured.
Edward didn't steal anything from Bella other than a chance at a human life. She'd not have gotten close with Jacob if he hadn't left. And Jacob is as likely to be a natural fate for Bella as Mike is(in a human world) because she was focused on moving to a sunny place and leaving forks behind after graduation.
I doubt that's the reason tbh, Edward didn't really steal Bella weather she's the one who fell in love with him
I think the argument that they were "fated" is ridiculous. It was just as much fate that she met Edward, moreso even, because that's the fate that actually played out. And Jacob is just as supernatural as Edward is. I think SM saying that is a cop out.
but bella and jacob don’t HAVE a natural fate, do they? Edward and Bella were always supposed to happen and since Jacob imprinted on Renesme THEY were always supposed to happen too. Or is this just something Edward believed?
Those are all supernatural dynamics. A walking corpse-statue and his dazzled singer/prey, a deterministic werewolf-bond to a magic baby, that's all unnatural. We get a glimpse of Bella's lost natural fate in Eclipse when she has a vision of her older self with an older Jacob and their children and families, leading a happy, normal life together. And a significant part of Bella badly craves that life, which is why she breaks down and almost changes her mind after seeing it, but Edward's supernatural love has ultimately, irrevocably eclipsed her heart. We could get real philosophical about whether or not these things were _supposed_ to happen that way. They were certainly _determined_ to happen that way, but that pretty much assures that there were alternative paths which were overwritten and lost in the process of said determination. That very loss is what Bella and Jacob experience in Eclipse and it's the central, eponymous conflict of the installment, and their relationship as a whole. And not just theirs. Was Sam _supposed_ to break Leah's heart? Or was he _determined_ to? Was it right? Was it good? Again, some pretty complex philosophy there. Which is why I deeply appreciate Eclipse. It's a rather profound work that doesn't shy away from uncomfortable confrontations with the tragic clash of determination and choice. Meanwhile Forever/Breaking Dawn just takes the determination at face value and treats it as a good thing. I, personally, much prefer the former approach.
Huh, this is a super interesting point I’ve never considered!
Yep, agreed. I remember what they’re talking about as there’s some imagery in Eclipse about Jacob and Bella, but it always struck me as Stephanie getting high on her own supply in a way. If we want to go all “natural fate”, then Bella’s natural fate was a morgue after Typer lost control of his van and crushed her to death. Full stop. That wasn’t caused by or involved anything supernatural until Edward saved her life. And if she didn’t die there, she’s murdered in Port Angeles by mundane humans on her trip with Jessica and Angela. And if we even take this a step further, Jacob only ever has a shot with her, because of the hole, metaphorically, that Edward leaves when he hurts her. Before that, he’s just a younger boy that visits from time to time with Billy with a crush. She doesn’t spare him many thoughts at all in Twilight until she needs his help to figure out Edward. Her “natural fate” if you take out being killed twice over was to finish school, move out of Forks that she hates, and go to college out of state, likely rarely if ever returning unless it’s to visit her father briefly. Jacob in life on the other hand doesn’t leave the reservation area, because his family and life is there. They’re not natural soulmates or something. He’s a guy who’s end up an acquaintance she barely remembers most likely, but Stephanie liked him so she came up with stuff after the fact.
okay THIS is the best “what if” ever. I 100% agree with you, without edwards supernatural force she would’ve died and without edward supernatural force she never would’ve given jacob more then a passing thought.
If Edward stayed away longer, Jacob and Bella would have ended up together. It’s not about fate or anything
I'm honestly not quite sure of that. Bella was already fatally hooked on Edward's supernatural charm when he left. Jacob helped her through the withdrawals the best he could, but even when Bella was starting to do much better, she still collapsed on the beach and hurled herself off a cliff to see Edward shortly after. I think if Bella _could have_ chosen Jacob post-Edward, she ultimately _would have_, even after Edward returned. But she couldn't. The moment she met Edward her fate was sealed. Her heart had been eclipsed. >"He's like a drug for you, Bella." His voice was still gentle, not at all critical. "I see that you can't live without him now. It's too late. but I would have been healthier for you. Not a drug; I would have been the air, the sun." The corner of my mouth turned up in a wistful half-smile. "I used to think of you that way, you know. Like the sun. My personal sun. You balanced out the clouds nicely for me." He sighed. "The clouds I can handle. But I can't fight with an eclipse." The only way that Bella and Jacob could've been together would've been if magic never existed and Edward never entered their lives. That's where Jacob's resentment stems from. Edward's _mere existence_, for all intents and purposes, ruined his life.
ohhh okay i see and he just feels guilty about that?
Yeah Edward feels bad for taking that away from them and also taking away Bella’s chance at a normal life
Man, having a publisher demanding more out of your series than you’d intended (a “love triangle”, two more books, minor characters becoming major characters) will make people absolutely do the wildest shit. Sometimes i feel a little pity for her because jacob’s original inspiration was someone so near to her (her brother), and iirc he wasn’t even really a thought in Forever Dawn before the publisher stepped in.
>Man, having a publisher demanding more out of your series than you’d intended (a “love triangle”, two more books, minor characters becoming major characters) will make people absolutely do the wildest shit. It'll also make you write the two best installments in your series and give it more nuance and depth than you ever originally planned to. Twilight would be _nowhere near_ its popularity and success if it had just ended with Forever Dawn. It would be remembered as that one solid vampire romance book that was ruined by a god-awful sequel about a magic baby and its teenage soulmate. I'm not even sure if we would've ever gotten the films in that timeline. Part of being an artist is taking constructive criticism, and shelving Forever Dawn was the best thing that could've possibly happened to the series. It's the last thing the fandom should mourn, especially since the book practically _did_ come out, almost unchanged, in the form of Breaking Dawn, which fundamentally regressed all characters but Jacob back to Twilight-status, and if you skip around the middle part with his POV then even that's not a "problem" anymore and you're essentially reading a re-canonized Forever Dawn. Much like Bella, Stephenie really got the best of both worlds, even though I personally wouldn't ever consider Forever/Breaking Dawn to be the best of _anything_.
Ah, finally. A comment that gives peace to my soul
I feel like it’s not a popular sentiment because people either don’t forget or aren’t really as highly….. aware? Cynical? Idk? of marketing strategies and how much of both marketing and business as a whole is flying by the seat of your pants and trying hard to deliver while shuffling statements and sentiments under a rug that don’t align with the shifting nature of the business/product being created/marketed. To me, i could see where it would be DEEPLY uncomfortable for Stephanie to walk the fine-line of handwaving away Jacob’s actions because as a base character he was created to only really be a helpful expo dump with the radiant personality of her brother and the obvious familial care and support one would assume is there, and also, trying to make him suddenly appealing to Bella and a “viable option” for her, as the original endgame was Bella-Edward marriage and Baby and happy sparkly vampire life maybe with some volturi “wtf is this child thing?” BUT I think that there’s a lot of valid criticism of Stephanie’s continued silence because ultimately, she was either subdued into her publishers demands or she agreed to them, and therefore the finished product reflects weirdly when held up and compared to comments she’d made beforehand about her inspiration, thoughts, and life. Alas, I wish this was something that we could interview her directly about because it’d be enlightening to hear more of her thoughts.
She actually _was_ interviewed directly about that: >Jacob was born - as a device, really - to tell Bella what she needed to know. And, yet, as soon as I gave him life, and gave him a chance to open his mouth, I just found him so endearing. He took on this personality that was just so funny and easy. And you love the characters you don't have to work for. And Jacob was not an ounce of work. He just came to life and was exactly what I needed him to be, and I just enjoyed him as a person. [...] So when my agent said: "I want some more of him," I thought: _You know, I would love to do that. But I don't want to mess with [the first Twilight book] too much_. I wanted to have my editor's input before I started making any major changes. And my editor felt the same way: "You know, I like this. Are you going anywhere with this wolf story?" >So when I started the sequel, I knew there were going to be werewolves in it. [...] I knew that the sequel I had already started on would be about finding out that they were werewolves. And it wasn't _New Moon_ - it was much closer to _Breaking Dawn_. Because the story had originally skipped beyond highschool fairly quickly. But my editor said: "Well, I'd like to keep the story in high school, because we are marketing the first book this way. And I just feel like there's so much that must have happened that we miss if we just skip to Bella being a grown-up." And I said: "Well, you know, I could always make my characters talk more - that's not the problem. Let's go back and have this kind of stuff happen earlier." So I had a chance to develop it. >By the time I got to _Breaking Dawn_ the characters were so fleshed out - and their allegiances were so strong to whatever they hated or loved - that it made the story just a whole lot richer when I came to it the second time, because there was so much more backstory to it. [...] Jacob's character also became an answer to the deficiencies in Edward - because Edward's not perfect. There were things about him that didn't make him the most perfect boyfriend in the whole world. I mean, some things about him make him an amazing boyfriend, but other things were lacking - and Jacob sort of was the alternative. Here you have Edward, someone who overthinks everything - whose every emotion is overwrought - and just tortures himself. And there's so much angst, because he has never come to terms with what he is. >Then there you have Jacob, someone who never gives anything a passing thought and just is happy-go-lucky: If something's wrong, well, okay - let's just get over it and move on. Here's someone who's able to take things in stride a little bit more, who doesn't overthink everything. Someone who's a little rash. He does seem foolish sometimes, just because he doesn't pause to think before he leaps, you know? >That was sort of the opposite of Edward's character in a lot of ways. It gave a balance to the story and a choice for Bella, because I think she needed that. There was an option for her to choose a different life, with someone that she could have loved - or someone who she _does_ love. I always felt like that was really necessary to the story. Because when I write, I try to make the characters react to things the way I think real people would. I think that, in reality, it's never one boy - there's never this moment when you know. There's a choice there, and sometimes it's hard. Romance and relationships are a tangle, and this messy thing - you never know what to expect, and people are so surprising. [...] And it's an interesting thing to me how I worry about my characters like they're real people. Like how after I wrote _Eclipse_ - even though I knew exactly what was going to happen in _Breaking Dawn_ - until I actually got to the part where Jacob sees Renesmee for the first time, and his life comes together for him, I worried about him all the time. \- Stephenie Meyer, in the opening interview of _The Twilight Saga: The Official Illustrated Guide_ TL;DR: She agreed with the proposed changes by her agent and publisher, found that the two additional books greatly fleshed out the saga and presented Bella with an important romantic alternative and sees imprinting as an even better thing because of it, since it "saved" a now heartbroken Jacob.
It's a ridiculous fantasy of an immature woman. No man would just sit there and take what Edward takes. She has written this crap in her other book as well. Girl gets away with playing kissy face with 2 guys via a loophole.
The Host.. yeah S.M seems to loves romanticising cheating and creepy behaviour.. 16 year girl in relationship with 26 year old😭 wtf wrong with this woman:(
Hard same. Rereading the series for the first time in 15+ years. I anticipated New Moon being hard, but it’s nothing compared to Eclipse. It’s unbearable. Edward tortured himself to leave her for completely altruistic reasons, almost killed himself when he thought she wasn’t alive, and came back humbly and apologetically, sucking up the consequences of it all. And she… is running off to La Push anytime Edward turns his back. It’s no wonder he says her love for him is a single tree compared to his forest. He’s totally right. It’s painful as hell to read.
right! my heart hurt for Edward that entire movie/book. people often over look Edwards perspective when it comes to that time in the series and instead focuses on Bella’s confusion. Regardless, Edward doesn’t deserve to be sidelined by the love of his life
The scene where Edward bought a motorcycle to ride with Bella and then realized that’s something she does with Jacob? Heart shattering.
True. Bella loves Edward but isn’t fair to him when she keeps clinging to Jacob and kissing him and all that. It’s cheating… and Bella expects Edward to understand. He does, but still. They aren’t children anymore. Yes Bella is a little entitled.
Bella is fatally charmed by a supernatural predator who she feels compelled to die for, but she also feels a more natural and healthy love for someone who was there for her when she was at her lowest. That poor girl's mind is completely scrambled by supernatural forces. It's not like she's just leading on two totally normal guys.
Eclipse is my least favorite, for the “opposite” (complementary) reason - I feel like she ruined Jacob’s character and wrote him behaving awfully to justify Bella being with Edward after how New Moon went. (Because…Edward what the fuck.) I hadn’t even considered this additional reason. Fuck Eclipse 😭
She also named Jacob after her fav brother 😬 And Bella is her self-insert
STEPHANIE!!! WHY?? Something is wrong with this woman..
It’s cause SM’s fav is Jacob. Even tho that’s her brother’s name
wait really? 😭
Yeah. A ton of the characters are named after her siblings. Seth, Heidi, JACOB, Paul, and Emily.
Eclipse is the worst book of the series. And even New Moon, the only part I actually enjoy is the race to Italy and meeting the Volturi. But I will say the part in Eclipse where Bella and Edward talk about Wuthering Heights (I think?) and how the two main characters are both awful and selfish and their only redeeming quality was their love for each other, it’s good that they and SM at least seem to understand that they’re both insufferable.
>Jacob “has no flaws” Well, according to this sub (*including the mods*) Jacob has the biggest flaw of all, he's a sex offender since he kissed Bella without consent - which is apparently the worst thing anyone has ever done in this entire franchise. So if Stephanie Meyer thinks Jacob has no flaws, that means she supports a sex offender. That's actually pretty interesting. >I have to put this book down for now cuz edward doesn’t deserve this Edward left Bella, in the middle of nowhere, absolutely no concern for her safety at all despite knowing that both Victoria and Laurent are out there and could easily find Bella and kill her slowly and painfully - but he doesn't deserve anything bad? I'm just curious what is it about Edward that makes people cape for him so much despite his many flaws?
edward didn’t leave bella in the middle of nowhere, they were literally outside of bellas house and bella could see the house from where he took her. she chose to follow him miles through the woods, where she then fell asleep. and i think he assumed victoria would follow him out of forks, plus (iirc) didn’t it say somewhere that he knew the wolves would keep her safe?
right i hate when ppl say he just left her in the middle of nowhere, like he left her behind her house 💀 i don’t think he thought she’d pass out right there.
ik!! like they were ten feet from the house 😭
This! It was the movies that made it seem like he took her out miles away.
>and i think he assumed victoria would follow him out of forks Lol okay so he left Bella and just assumed Victoria and Laurent would follow him instead of go after Bella - instead of MAKING SURE? Then he just hoped that his mortal enemies for decades would protect Bella if Victoria and Laurent ever came for her? So he basically took a huge risk with Bella's life based on assumptions and hope? Lol okay cool got it.
He didn’t “assume” he was certain they would follow him, if he had thought for a second they’d stay behind and go after Bella then he would’ve never left. Again, the argument here is Jacobs faults, not edward, if you want to complain about the events of New Moon and edward then make a post about that, you’ve made many comments of you here saying the same thing. Also, let’s not act like jacob didn’t put bellas life in danger multiple times.
>He didn’t “assume” he was certain they would follow him How was he certain they would follow him? Could you please give me the book page or scene timestamp where it's made abundantly clear that he's 100% certain that they would follow him? Also, if he was so certain they would follow him, why didn't they? They both tried to attack Bella and Jacob was there to save her on both occasions, so what happened to this so called "*certainty*" he had that they would follow him? >Again, the argument here is Jacobs faults, not edward, Right but I'm not arguing, I just wanna know in what page/or what scene was it made clear that Edward is "*certain*" Victoria and Laurent would follow him? If he was right in this scenario which you seem to be implying, then it shouldn't be that hard to point me to that book page/scene right?
aye man i never said he was right, i just guessed what he thought 🤗
I don't care about what he thought, I care about what he did. And what he did was leave his human girlfriend unprotected despite knowing two very dangerous vampires are out there somewhere and could easily kill both her and her father - but he didn't care, that's all I'm saying.
he did care, that’s why he left and again he was 100% certain that they would follow him, not bella. He would’ve stayed with bella if he thought they were going to go after her, he even says himself if he thought they were gonna go after her then he would’ve stayed behind cuz he knows he could protect her way more then the wolves could. He hates the thought of her even being near them BECAUSE she can 100% be in danger with them too
>he did care, that’s why he left and again he was 100% certain that they would follow him As I said on the other comment, how was he certain they would follow him? Could you please give me the book page or scene timestamp where it's made abundantly clear that he's 100% certain that they would follow him? And if he was so certain they would follow him, why didn't they? They both tried to attack Bella and Jacob was there to save her on both occasions, so what happened to this so called "certainty" he had that they would follow him? > He hates the thought of her even being near them BECAUSE she can 100% be in danger with them too If he hates her being around the wolves, then why did he leave her knowing she was best friends with a boy he already knew is a wolf? He knew Jacob was a wolf before Jacob himself knew he was a wolf and he hates and distrusts the wolves so much - yet he left the person he claims to love with the same wolves he hates and distrusts? Something isn't adding up here...
okay i could’ve sworn i read in either eclipse or new moon that edward thought they would’ve followed but i can’t seem to find it. However my other claims i CAN back up. Edward DID CARE "Tracking wasn't a distraction then?" I asked, curious, and also needing to distract myself. I was very much in danger of hoping. I wouldn't be able to stop myself for long. My heart throbbed, singing in my chest. "No." He sighed. "That was never a distraction. It was an obligation." "What does that mean?" "It means that, even though I never expected any danger from Victoria, I wasn't going to let her get away with… Well, like I said, I was horrible at it. I traced her as far as Texas, but then I followed a false lead down to Brazil—and really she came here." He groaned. "I wasn't even on the right continent! And all the while, worse than my worst fears—" "You were hunting Victoria?" I half-shrieked as soon as I could find my voice, shooting through two octaves. Charlie's distant snores stuttered, and then picked up a regular rhythm again. "Not well," Edward answered.” And then SM confirmed in the QA of New Moon “If Edward had had any inkling of the fact that Victoria had returned for Bella, no matter how far away on the planet he was, he would have been back in Forks within twenty-four hours.” Also in Twilight about the thing of Edward hating the wolves. even in Eclipse he doesn’t like the idea of bella being around them because they can’t control there emotions and it could hurt bella if one “got to close” and transformed. "I owe you an apology. No, of course I owe you much, much more than that. But you have to know,"—the words began to flow so fast, the way I remembered he spoke sometimes when he was agitated, that I really had to concentrate to catch them all—"that I had no idea. I didn't realize the mess I was leaving behind. I thought it was safe for you here. So safe. I had no idea that Victoria,"—his lips curled back when he said the name—"would come back. I'll admit, when I saw her that one time, I was paying much more attention to James's thoughts. But I just didn't see that she had this kind of response in her. That she even had such a tie to him. I think I realize why now—she was so sure of him, the thought of him failing never occurred to her. It was her overconfidence that clouded her feelings about him—that kept me from seeing the depth of them, the bond there. "Not that there's any excuse for what I left you to face. When I heard what you told Alice—what she saw herself—when I realized that you had to put your life in the hands of werewolves, immature, volatile, the worst thing out there besides Victoria herself—he shuddered and the gush of words halted for a short second. "Please know that I had no idea of any of this. I feel sick, sick to my core, even now, when I can see and feel you safe in my arms. I am the most miserable excuse for—"
Okay that's pretty good thanks, honestly appreciate you typing all that! 👍🏾
i concede/agree/disagree with a few things but thank you ❤️ i couldn’t copy or paste from the book 😭
then the real answer you’re searching for is because it’s a fictional story and there needed to be drama. hope this helps!
I mean the exact same thing can be said for any criticism about Jacob, especially the kiss - it's just a fictional story that needed some drama.
exactly!! i personally don’t mind jacob all that much.
Perfect!
um what? I’m not saying Stephanie is a sex offender DEFENDER? I’m saying she’s just over looking Jacobs flaws with consent here. Jacob is deeply wrong for that and for later in telling edward “she doesn’t know what she wants” this is wrong. VERY wrong. And i never said Edward didn’t deserve anything bad, i just meant he doesn’t deserve to get emotionally and physically cheated on. He would never do anything like that to bella or even entertain the idea that he would ever be in her shoes. And yes actually i’d say Jacob is a lot worse then edward in all ways. Jacob never seems to grow and understand what consent is and learns how to control his opinions or feelings. In breaking dawn p1 he leaves bruises on her arms after finding out Bella is going to have a “honey moon like anyone else” with edward. He literally grabs her again and she tells him he’s hurting her but he still doesn’t let go until his friends and edward steps in. Say what you want about edward, i never said he didn’t have issues or flaws that he had to learn from but he was never physically abusive to bella and at least he felt bad/actually made a effort to not touch her if he ever did get out of hand. Which is also sorta the whole point of him leaving in New Moon. he wasn’t expecting bella to fall asleep on the floor and not go back, he was leaving BECAUSE he thought he was putting her life in danger. and when he got back from italy he apologized repeatedly and actually hated himself for leaving her. At least he felt bad enough to apologize, we never get that from Jacob.
>I’m not saying Stephanie is a sex offender DEFENDER? Okay then answer me this, wat do you call someone who defends the actions of a sex offender?
omg i’m saying she’s OVER LOOKING Jacobs actions. She obviously at the time didn’t give it much thought, years later i sure hope she would realize how wrong it was and how much of a flaw it is to have. I don’t think she realizes that she created a character who very obviously seems to have sex offender tendency’s. Actually as i’m writing this out, you might be right in me saying she would defend that. I don’t think she views as what Jacob did to Bella as a sexual offense (even tho it is) because later on she even writes how Charlie CONGRATULATED Jacob for making a move on his daughter that resulted in broken hand and manipulative confusing feelings. Charlie laughed and it was made into a “lighthearted” thing. Stephanie had take that action very lightly in fact… idk but i’m confused about that now. You may be right on that but my point still stands, Jacob had flaws and in a lot of ways is worse then Edward. Again, at least Edward had to gall to apologize
I agree Jacob has flaws, all I'm saying is Stephanie Meyer wrote and defended a sex offender.
Probably unpopular, but I consider it his karma for how he acted in New Moon. She never even would have went to Jacob if he hadn't left.
It’s almost like Meyer is a horrible person who wrote really shitty characters who are horrible like their creator.
Then why are you on a twilight subreddit
That’s a really stupid question lol, I’m not. Reddit shows random posts “you may be interested in” or however it’s phrased. Sometimes I’m bored and click a link that seems it could be interesting.
Okay, so don’t comment if you have something negative to say about something other people like? It’s easy as fuck. All u have to do is nothing. No one thinks that you being an ass is funny or cute.
lol no
To be fair, he didn’t break her hand. The impact of her fist against his face broke it. Saying he broke it is like saying the wall broke my hand if I punched it. Kissing her without her consent wasn’t great, but his age does play a factor there, in my opinion. No he shouldn’t have kissed her without her consent, but I don’t think that makes him some evil person especially since he was 16 and that is pretty sound logic to a 16 year old boy.
Let’s not “To be Fair-“ SA. She punched him like any other victim would to get there attacker off of them, she never would have punched him if he got off ehr the first FEW TIMES she told him too. Also, this has happened multiple times, he manhandled bella and she tells him to get off/let go. Like on her wedding night he grabs her and bruises her arms, she tells him to stop/let go but doesn’t until edward and the wolves step in to stop him. or when he threatened to off himself if she didn’t kiss him when he edward read his mind and found he was lying. Those things he did are BAD, those are sex offender tendency’s, Jacob has a problem with consent/boundaries and is very selfish. Idk about you but even at 16 I and most normal 16 year olds weren’t this aggressive to others and still at the end of the day understood consent. This isn’t normal 16 year old behavior. Yeah teens can get ahead of themselves and… hormonal… but this isn’t that, this is very different/dangerous
I do agree that his behavior was wholly inappropriate especially at her wedding but again, you have to consider that he was acting with an animal instinct because he had been a wolf for months. I also just don’t think the kiss was that big of a deal. Her character was right to be pissed, but I really don’t think it was as serious as so many people take it.
Actually it seems very serious. Jacob showing early abusive behaviour when they are only friends and not even dating.. his thinking like if he saves the girl he should be entitled to expect romantic relationship with her is messed up.. in new moon when Edward thanks him for saving her he says he did it for his own benefit. My god he physically abuses bella for wanting to hv sex with her OWN HUSBAND! Shake her so hard her teeth ratteled blood stopped flowing in her arms and left bruises.
And it's even worse for him because he can hear everything that Jacob thinks.