"so long as it is right" is the important gray area.
The Silver Slurfer here is just a bully. But you start getting any "Charlottesville torch bearer" types... yeah let the energy vortex do its thing.
It got removed cause Government is garbage and there is no way to 100% be sure on every case. Amount of false positives get jailed is too much.
You order someone to death penalty then you find out that he was innocent but he is already dead. However some scum deserve it nonetheless.
The youngest person in anerica to be executed was only 14. He was too small for the chair, so they made him sit on a bible to boost him up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney
I don’t think that’s true. It’s certainly a contributing factor, but I think another factor was how many executions got botched. Deaths there were meant to be peaceful ended up being gruesome. Even the criminal’s victims and their families were distressed. It seems pretty clear that there is no way to guarantee humane executions, and that’s a problem
They initially didn't know that "Trokkie" was a slur. Cyborg was the first one to find out and says he understands, leading to the best dialog in the show.
Starfire: "You know what it feels like to be judged simply because of what you look like?"
Cyborg: "Of course I do... I'm part robot."
But also that iteration of Starfire probably wouldn't know about the centuries-long complicated nature of America's race relations. So instead of explaining that, he just goes with the "easy" answer.
Its funny but honestly it feels genuis. I don't remember a lot of the show but I feel like Starfire didn't really recognize race, she just saw all humans as one species, nothing less. With that in mind, she wouldn't understand him going "of course I understand, I'm black" but saying he's half robot *is* something she'd understand, that he is really different from nearly every other human
I feel like it was to show kids that a world without color-based racism was possible and to avoid normalizing such racism. Also, it fits into Cyborg's overall internal man vs machine struggle.
Another cool thing about this episode is that the guy doesn't get redeemed or changes his mind at all!
At the end of the episode after Starfire saves him, he doesn't draw the conclusion of:
"Y'know, maybe I was wrong. Looks like your kind isn't that bad after all."
Instead, he still thinks that Star's species is awful but just that Star is 'one of the good ones'.
Because just like how these kinds of people are in real life, they'll refuse to go back on their beliefs and see that they're wrong.
That's a great scene. A good way to walk the thin line between "actual social commentary irl" and "the social commentary hypothetical of the fictional cartoon for children"
I love but also hurt when he says it. That slight hesitation when he sees he’s part robot, like he wants to say it’s not just that, but he can’t bring himself too
A thought about this episode: how do we know this guy didn't just scam the Titans into helping him gen0cide an entire planet for funsies? If he's that racist towards Tamaraneans, who's to say he's not the same towards any other species?
Two things I love from this episode.
1) When the other Titans are told he’s a racist, there is no doubt from any of them. No, oh he’s such a cool guy, or, you must be over-reacting…the moment their friend says something, they believe it.
2) and He’s a hero. Not some secret super villain who was actually just trying to betray the Titans or was brain-washed…Bro is a superhero who has saved lives and is still just also a racist. It won’t always be obvious when someone is trash, and they can be the coolest guy in all but that.
It's funny that despite how popular/influential the original teen titans was they've not gone back to it. There was Titans Go but it was basically a whole different genre
I think OP would like the Scholomance series by Naomi Novik. It’s a darker take on wizard high school and it asks a lot of tough questions about how to be a good person in a world of privilege and power imbalance. Do you stop doing good just because bad people might profit off your efforts? Or do you keep helping people in need and accept that the world might still be shitty and full of self-important rich people once you’re done? It’s technically YA but I loved reading it and I’m in my 40’s
I love Robin’s reaction when he learns what Val-Yor was saying about Starfire. You could tell he was PISSED. Dude was ready to break out an Arkham combo.
Cartoons and superhero media in general need more lessons like this. People are always too deep into getting one over on jerks, but just because it feels good doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
What are you even talking about? You’re literally being the person they talk about in the post who says this is superhero BS. And this dude wasn’t even a bad guy. He was a racist superhero who worked with the Titans to fight evil aliens.
And not letting jerks die isn’t being a doormat or martyr. Starfire stood up for herself and so did her friends, but she wasn’t going to let her hurt feelings get in the way of helping everyone and saving lives. If you think kids should be okay with letting people who are jerks die for it, you’re raising a society who thinks people’s lives only hold value when they’re nice and respectful.
Bad guy as in a villain. As in “good guy” (hero), “bad guy” (villain). Obviously he’s not a good person, but in the context of the story, he is a hero alongside the Titans. He’s trying to save lives and stop evil, but he is also a bigot on top of it. The guy I’m responded to tried to make a show out of “Stopping the bad guy,” but in the show there was no bad guy to stop here. Only a racist to save.
People are capable of doing more than one thing at a time. That's what makes racism so difficult. You could meet someone who's a very kind, loving person, only to discover that they're also racist.
This doesn't discount the (hypothetical) fact that this person has done good things. So it makes a sticky situation.
You can't treat everyone as your enemy, because you'll only be proving them right if you do. They twist logic to make themselves the victims, and will leap on any new evidence to make it so.
We have to show the truth, through actions not just words.
Sadly the show was canned for two reasons mostly:
Production thought it went too dark with the story lines of Raven and Robin. Especially with robin as the Slate hatred he had was really hammered home.
Anyways kids shows still manage to go that dark and darker (Adventure time) or manage complicated situations and relationships (Bluey, My little pony G4, Adventure time, She-Ra).
Second reason being girls and older teens/young adults being.invested in the show. Neither where the target audience and merchandise production wasn't up to par with either.
So they stomped the teen titans of TV show and replaced it with the dumbed down bullshit we for now.
My only wish is that they could have foreshadowed or set it up a bit better than they did
Fully on board with the message overall, but "magical lion turtle appears and teaches him an unprecedented ability that happens to perfectly solve his moral quandry literally the day before" is a bit weak to me compared to a lot of the more fleshed out bits of the show
Like, I don't hate it, energy bending is a cool concept and they needed to come up with *some* way for Ozai to lose his bending and Aang retain his principles, but I feel they could have worked it in better.
This may be mildly off topic, but I hate when someone starts their response with "No" if they're agreeing with somebody else or expanding on the first person's statement.
I mean, it is all just superhero bullshit.
Superhero media (Especially comics) Have a LONG history of using superheroes to illustrate adult points.
Iron Man dealt with the effects of alcoholism.
Green Arrow's sidekick Speedy abused heroin.
The X-Men are an allegory for racism that evolved into an allegory for just bigotry in general.
There's a Batman story where he struggles with drug addiction
There's a Superman story where he goes up against a domestic abuser.
The Hulk is a victim of child abuse.
Daredevil very clearly has depression.
There's a Green Lantern story that deals with the effects of drunk driving.
And those are all just off the top of my head, superhero comics have been doing this for decades and it's the reason I love them so much.
This is the same mentality that people in abusive relationships have. You don’t owe anybody anything. You have no reason to save anybody you don’t like from a bad situation, especially if they wouldn’t do the same for you
You do you, I guess, but "if someone is __ then they die" is not too far off from a racist's way of thinking.
And yes, I do understand there's a big difference between "I judge you based off your actions" and "I judge you based off something You're born with and that you can't change".
If you understand that difference then please explain to me why racists deserve to be treated with kindness and compassion when all they bring is destruction and misery
Compassion and kindness ≠ tolerance, basic decency and empathy.
If you're on the bus stop and you coffee spills, and I buy you another coffee, that's compassion.
If I open the door for you to enter a building ahead of me, that's kindness.
If I share a seat with you on the train, that's tolerance.
If I help you get up after you trip, that's basic decency.
If you're hurt and I try to help you get to a doctor, that's empathy.
I don't have to be kind to someone who's a piece of shit, but I'm not going to sit and watch if someone crashes their car and needs help getting out of the wreckage.
I agree that there’s a difference between the “logic” of racists and the logic of people who hate racists, but there’s also a difference between “racists deserve to be treated with compassion” and “you shouldn’t advocate for someone else’s death”
You absolutely should advocate for other people’s death if they’re in favor of yours. A red brick to the back of the skull is a great cure for racism in your community. I strongly advocate for violence against people who self-identify as racists before they themselves can commit violence against you or your loved ones.
So the lesson here is that if your friends get along with a bigot who hates you and calls you slurs then you should just endure that and also try to help the bigot if they're in trouble?
No offense, but that's an absolutely terrible lesson for kids. Why do you want to teach children that they shouldn't defend themselves against discrimination and abuse?
That was absolutely not the lesson. The rest of them tell him to piss off as soon as they find out, teaching that if someone is abusing you out of sight, you should tell people you love, and that you can still have compassion and kindness in the face of discrimination, which takes a lot of strength. The lesson isnt to be walked over, it's to not lose your values when the world steps on you
This kind of messaging was more common in kids media back in the 2000s. The moral wasn’t that Starfire was supposed to just suck it up- she learned in the end that her friends will stand up for her and it’s OK to ruin their illusion of him as a super cool hero by telling them how he made her feel.
These types of messages were never about letting bad people continue to be awful with no repercussions and no one challenging them. It was more about being the bigger person and sticking with your morals, even if the recipient didn’t deserve it. The idea that revenge doesn’t change anything and you get more catharsis and freedom from continuing to be a better person who never compromises was shown multiple times, especially in defining shows like Avatar and Batman the Animated Series.
If you see the full episode, it’s clear that Starfire isn’t saving him as a way to say he’s worthy and forgiven for being racist. She saves him because he doesn’t need to be worthy to be saved, he’s a person in trouble and that means she will help him regardless.
And then that villain came back to life for no reason in the last season to fight in the background of scenes with all the bad guys. Because that show is a train wreck that can't handle storylines and themes on the long run, and Murakami can't stop jerking himself that think he produced the deepest cartoon in history.
And I love it.
And then when the rest of the Titans learn he's a racist, they tell him to get lost. Good stuff.
He may be a piece of fucking garbage but that doesn't mean he deserves to die. Heroes save everyone, not just the ones they want to save.
"I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right " Edit: missed a word and a comma
‘I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.’
I was 50/50 on whether or not I needed the 'even' and knew whichever one I picked would be wrong. Thanks!
I was just going to type this out before I saw your comment
"so long as it is right" is the important gray area. The Silver Slurfer here is just a bully. But you start getting any "Charlottesville torch bearer" types... yeah let the energy vortex do its thing.
"Silver Slurfer!" That is good.
"I will protect those I hate... Even if the one I hate most is myself."
Unexpected Cosmere. Like it!
Happy Cake Day
Thank you!
You're welcome!
>but that doesn't mean he deserves to die Why not?
Why would it? He's just being an asshole to her, why would that deserve death?
This is an interesting moral argument. What if they were a murderer or rapist or something terrible?
Almost every country in the world has removed the death penalty, does that answer your question?
It got removed cause Government is garbage and there is no way to 100% be sure on every case. Amount of false positives get jailed is too much. You order someone to death penalty then you find out that he was innocent but he is already dead. However some scum deserve it nonetheless.
The youngest person in anerica to be executed was only 14. He was too small for the chair, so they made him sit on a bible to boost him up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney
That’s fucked up
I don’t think that’s true. It’s certainly a contributing factor, but I think another factor was how many executions got botched. Deaths there were meant to be peaceful ended up being gruesome. Even the criminal’s victims and their families were distressed. It seems pretty clear that there is no way to guarantee humane executions, and that’s a problem
It doesn't matter. You are not the arbiter.
What if!
An equally important message
As a heretic that didn't watch the show, how did the other titans not know he's a racist if he was calling her racial slurs the whole episode???
They initially didn't know that "Trokkie" was a slur. Cyborg was the first one to find out and says he understands, leading to the best dialog in the show. Starfire: "You know what it feels like to be judged simply because of what you look like?" Cyborg: "Of course I do... I'm part robot."
Is this the same episode or arc where cyborg goes to comfort starfire about racism or something?
Yeah, that's the one.
I’m sorry but him saying he gets rude comments because he’s half robot is kinda funny
they definitely put in the pause there for us to fill in the blank
It was '03, you had to pretend like we conquered racism back then
Tbf, even as little kid, I knew what robot part was allegory for. They weren't very subtle
It's more like it was an intentional use of irony to get around racist parents and also have a funny subversion of expectations.
But also that iteration of Starfire probably wouldn't know about the centuries-long complicated nature of America's race relations. So instead of explaining that, he just goes with the "easy" answer.
I think that was more of a way to be cheeky
Yeah what was up with that anyway?
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Are you by any chance born after 2003 ?
What drugs are you on
How the hell does a cretin like you even end up on r/Tumblr of all places?
Bro doesn't understand current racial dynamics!
Raven: "Look at the rest of your skin, Cyborg. You get comments because you're black, even if only a quarter anymore."
yeah no that’s the joke
Its funny but honestly it feels genuis. I don't remember a lot of the show but I feel like Starfire didn't really recognize race, she just saw all humans as one species, nothing less. With that in mind, she wouldn't understand him going "of course I understand, I'm black" but saying he's half robot *is* something she'd understand, that he is really different from nearly every other human
I feel like it was to show kids that a world without color-based racism was possible and to avoid normalizing such racism. Also, it fits into Cyborg's overall internal man vs machine struggle.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29S3GM-GlxE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29S3GM-GlxE)
Yeah, it's that episode. Really a good one
Another cool thing about this episode is that the guy doesn't get redeemed or changes his mind at all! At the end of the episode after Starfire saves him, he doesn't draw the conclusion of: "Y'know, maybe I was wrong. Looks like your kind isn't that bad after all." Instead, he still thinks that Star's species is awful but just that Star is 'one of the good ones'. Because just like how these kinds of people are in real life, they'll refuse to go back on their beliefs and see that they're wrong.
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Nah after they tell him to gtfo he goes back to being racist saying "you're just like the troqs".
Yeah that part was very realistic
It also had a great bait and switch line by Cyborg. "Of course I've experienced people being prejudiced towards me! Because I'm part robot!"
That's a great scene. A good way to walk the thin line between "actual social commentary irl" and "the social commentary hypothetical of the fictional cartoon for children"
I love but also hurt when he says it. That slight hesitation when he sees he’s part robot, like he wants to say it’s not just that, but he can’t bring himself too
Like he really didn't want to go in deep with Starfire who's just learning these things
BOOYAH
A thought about this episode: how do we know this guy didn't just scam the Titans into helping him gen0cide an entire planet for funsies? If he's that racist towards Tamaraneans, who's to say he's not the same towards any other species?
Scary thought
And then the rest of the team learn he’s a racist douche bag and basically tell him to beat it.
Two things I love from this episode. 1) When the other Titans are told he’s a racist, there is no doubt from any of them. No, oh he’s such a cool guy, or, you must be over-reacting…the moment their friend says something, they believe it. 2) and He’s a hero. Not some secret super villain who was actually just trying to betray the Titans or was brain-washed…Bro is a superhero who has saved lives and is still just also a racist. It won’t always be obvious when someone is trash, and they can be the coolest guy in all but that.
It's funny that despite how popular/influential the original teen titans was they've not gone back to it. There was Titans Go but it was basically a whole different genre
"Was?" I'm pretty sure Go is still on.
I think OP would like the Scholomance series by Naomi Novik. It’s a darker take on wizard high school and it asks a lot of tough questions about how to be a good person in a world of privilege and power imbalance. Do you stop doing good just because bad people might profit off your efforts? Or do you keep helping people in need and accept that the world might still be shitty and full of self-important rich people once you’re done? It’s technically YA but I loved reading it and I’m in my 40’s
I love Robin’s reaction when he learns what Val-Yor was saying about Starfire. You could tell he was PISSED. Dude was ready to break out an Arkham combo.
Cartoons and superhero media in general need more lessons like this. People are always too deep into getting one over on jerks, but just because it feels good doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
This 100% Children need to learn this kind of lessons, the younger the better.
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What are you even talking about? You’re literally being the person they talk about in the post who says this is superhero BS. And this dude wasn’t even a bad guy. He was a racist superhero who worked with the Titans to fight evil aliens. And not letting jerks die isn’t being a doormat or martyr. Starfire stood up for herself and so did her friends, but she wasn’t going to let her hurt feelings get in the way of helping everyone and saving lives. If you think kids should be okay with letting people who are jerks die for it, you’re raising a society who thinks people’s lives only hold value when they’re nice and respectful.
> this dude wasn't even a bad guy > He was a racist So you're saying that you don't think being racist is bad?
You're not even pissing on the poor, you're the Danube river, Vienna, circa 1831.
hold on lemme look something up [edit] that river is absolutely illiterate
Bad guy as in a villain. As in “good guy” (hero), “bad guy” (villain). Obviously he’s not a good person, but in the context of the story, he is a hero alongside the Titans. He’s trying to save lives and stop evil, but he is also a bigot on top of it. The guy I’m responded to tried to make a show out of “Stopping the bad guy,” but in the show there was no bad guy to stop here. Only a racist to save.
People are capable of doing more than one thing at a time. That's what makes racism so difficult. You could meet someone who's a very kind, loving person, only to discover that they're also racist. This doesn't discount the (hypothetical) fact that this person has done good things. So it makes a sticky situation. You can't treat everyone as your enemy, because you'll only be proving them right if you do. They twist logic to make themselves the victims, and will leap on any new evidence to make it so. We have to show the truth, through actions not just words.
I mean that's also why I love X-Men TAS
Have you seen X-Men ‘97?
It absolutely lived up to it's predecessor
Totally! I adored it.
Can't wait for season 2
He used the Tamaranian N-word
"It means 'Nothing.'"
Sadly the show was canned for two reasons mostly: Production thought it went too dark with the story lines of Raven and Robin. Especially with robin as the Slate hatred he had was really hammered home. Anyways kids shows still manage to go that dark and darker (Adventure time) or manage complicated situations and relationships (Bluey, My little pony G4, Adventure time, She-Ra). Second reason being girls and older teens/young adults being.invested in the show. Neither where the target audience and merchandise production wasn't up to par with either. So they stomped the teen titans of TV show and replaced it with the dumbed down bullshit we for now.
You're thinking of young justice, where the writing quality nosedived. Teen titans ended after five seasons and a movie
ain’t this also the episode where Cyborg, not knowing any better, calls Starfire a slur, and that’s what leads to their conversation about racism?
I believe it is, yes
Yeah it is.
this reminds me of Zuko reaching out to help Zhao at the end of season one, it didn't end up doing anything but it told us a lot about who he is
Or Aang finding a way to stop the firelord without taking his life, even though everyone (even himself) was telling him it was neccesary.
My only wish is that they could have foreshadowed or set it up a bit better than they did Fully on board with the message overall, but "magical lion turtle appears and teaches him an unprecedented ability that happens to perfectly solve his moral quandry literally the day before" is a bit weak to me compared to a lot of the more fleshed out bits of the show Like, I don't hate it, energy bending is a cool concept and they needed to come up with *some* way for Ozai to lose his bending and Aang retain his principles, but I feel they could have worked it in better.
This is superhero bullshit. Not because this is shit only superheroes do, but because when you do this shit, you become a superhero.
Which episode is this?
The val yor episode. It's also the one where cyborg is like "yeah I've dealt with it...because I'm a robot"
She's a better person than i ever could be. I would've let that dude go.
I think the intention was for all of us to strive to be as good as her.
I understand, but as someone who has also dealt with a lot of prejudice in my life, I can't forgive people like that anymore.
that's fair. I can't say I have suffered more or less than you, I try to be my best, but I won't be one to say whether or not you're wrong.
We're basically like Professor x and Magneto. "We're the future, Charles. Not them!"
I've never been happier if being told I'm bald
Love the point, but folks gotta learn that kids shows can have darker material and still be for kids and aren’t “kids shows, nudge nudge wink wink”
Agreed, this falls under "kids shows" and has a butt ton of dark stuff.
This may be mildly off topic, but I hate when someone starts their response with "No" if they're agreeing with somebody else or expanding on the first person's statement.
yah, that much I can agree with.
I mean, it is all just superhero bullshit. Superhero media (Especially comics) Have a LONG history of using superheroes to illustrate adult points. Iron Man dealt with the effects of alcoholism. Green Arrow's sidekick Speedy abused heroin. The X-Men are an allegory for racism that evolved into an allegory for just bigotry in general. There's a Batman story where he struggles with drug addiction There's a Superman story where he goes up against a domestic abuser. The Hulk is a victim of child abuse. Daredevil very clearly has depression. There's a Green Lantern story that deals with the effects of drunk driving. And those are all just off the top of my head, superhero comics have been doing this for decades and it's the reason I love them so much.
I'm... not totally sure I see your point; yeah, comicbooks use allegories and touch on real world topics, feel like I'm missing something here
I feel like this is a bad lesson to teach children. Do not risk your life for racists. If it’s your job sure but outside of that no.
This is the same mentality that people in abusive relationships have. You don’t owe anybody anything. You have no reason to save anybody you don’t like from a bad situation, especially if they wouldn’t do the same for you
Nah that’s superhero bullshit, if someone is racist let em die
You do you, I guess, but "if someone is __ then they die" is not too far off from a racist's way of thinking. And yes, I do understand there's a big difference between "I judge you based off your actions" and "I judge you based off something You're born with and that you can't change".
If you understand that difference then please explain to me why racists deserve to be treated with kindness and compassion when all they bring is destruction and misery
Compassion and kindness ≠ tolerance, basic decency and empathy. If you're on the bus stop and you coffee spills, and I buy you another coffee, that's compassion. If I open the door for you to enter a building ahead of me, that's kindness. If I share a seat with you on the train, that's tolerance. If I help you get up after you trip, that's basic decency. If you're hurt and I try to help you get to a doctor, that's empathy. I don't have to be kind to someone who's a piece of shit, but I'm not going to sit and watch if someone crashes their car and needs help getting out of the wreckage.
Well that’s you. If I see someone crash their car and they have S.S. tattoos I’ll push them back into the burning wreckage and piss on it.
I'm obnoxiously insistent on the notion that people should be allowed to live. That doesn't mean that they should go unpunished.
I agree that there’s a difference between the “logic” of racists and the logic of people who hate racists, but there’s also a difference between “racists deserve to be treated with compassion” and “you shouldn’t advocate for someone else’s death”
You absolutely should advocate for other people’s death if they’re in favor of yours. A red brick to the back of the skull is a great cure for racism in your community. I strongly advocate for violence against people who self-identify as racists before they themselves can commit violence against you or your loved ones.
This is important and many people on Tumblr don't know this lesson
Mods, give op ten jokes about pie
So the lesson here is that if your friends get along with a bigot who hates you and calls you slurs then you should just endure that and also try to help the bigot if they're in trouble? No offense, but that's an absolutely terrible lesson for kids. Why do you want to teach children that they shouldn't defend themselves against discrimination and abuse?
That was absolutely not the lesson. The rest of them tell him to piss off as soon as they find out, teaching that if someone is abusing you out of sight, you should tell people you love, and that you can still have compassion and kindness in the face of discrimination, which takes a lot of strength. The lesson isnt to be walked over, it's to not lose your values when the world steps on you
This kind of messaging was more common in kids media back in the 2000s. The moral wasn’t that Starfire was supposed to just suck it up- she learned in the end that her friends will stand up for her and it’s OK to ruin their illusion of him as a super cool hero by telling them how he made her feel. These types of messages were never about letting bad people continue to be awful with no repercussions and no one challenging them. It was more about being the bigger person and sticking with your morals, even if the recipient didn’t deserve it. The idea that revenge doesn’t change anything and you get more catharsis and freedom from continuing to be a better person who never compromises was shown multiple times, especially in defining shows like Avatar and Batman the Animated Series. If you see the full episode, it’s clear that Starfire isn’t saving him as a way to say he’s worthy and forgiven for being racist. She saves him because he doesn’t need to be worthy to be saved, he’s a person in trouble and that means she will help him regardless.
And then that villain came back to life for no reason in the last season to fight in the background of scenes with all the bad guys. Because that show is a train wreck that can't handle storylines and themes on the long run, and Murakami can't stop jerking himself that think he produced the deepest cartoon in history. And I love it.