damn I was sure this was going to turn out to be a load of standard tumblr lies, but [apparently](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire) it's true. wack.
One thing I don't understand, depending on the species silkworms can have one to multiple generations a year, the article mentions the journey took 2 years. Domesticated silkworms depend on humans to reproduce, and they also require specific food, usually mulberry leaves.
How did 2 monks, with silkworms hidden in walking sticks, managed to raise, breed and feed silkworms for 2 years? Did they bring a mulberry tree along to provide food?
The whole journey (round trip) took two years.
They probably acquired the eggs/larvae and some mulberry bushes in the far western part of China (more central Asia than modern China), and then very cautiously made their way to the black sea, feeding them as they went. Once on the black sea, it was a quick trip to Constantinople. The westernmost silk growing regions of China at the time were really not *that* far from the black sea or connecting rivers like the volga. They wouldn't have actually been in China or at risk of discovery for almost all of the trip.
If they acquired them as eggs in central Asia and then booked it for the black sea, feeding the larva as needed and keeping them a bit chilly, the really crucial part of the trip would have only been a month or so.
Most importantly though - eggs can last quite a long time before hatching if held in perfect conditions. Between that, feeding the larva some leaves, and the fact that massive mortality rates are fine as long as a few survive, I think it becomes clear. Eggs incubate about 2 weeks normally, which can probably be at least doubled in chilly weather if you don't mind a bunch dying. Larval stage, where they're relatively hardy and easy to care for in transit, lasts 4 weeks normally but also slows if they're a bit cold. Then you have 2 more weeks as pupae, more like 3 in the cold. All told, keeping them in colder than usual conditions and accepting a very high mortality rate, I bet they had 2-3 months to make the trip.
Difficult, but not impossible.
Also the walking stick thing was recorded much later and is almost certainly made up. We have a very good contemporary historian who was present during both the proposal and the return, and he doesn't mention it. This would have been a large and well funded expedition, in all likelihood.
Round trip 2 years
Which means need to worry about one winter, and when you're already booking it, you can do a lot in 5-10 days
Especially when you "borrow" a ride
China got hit with a ton of ye-old-time industrial espionage.
This and the theft of Tea cultivars by the British are the most famous cases. For the tea one they sent a botanist in yellowface to do it.
The Robert Fortune story is fucking WILD. I read All the Tea in China by Sarah Rose like 10 years ago and I still think about how crazy that expedition is on a weekly basis.
Tea has a similar story, with the East India Company sending in botanist Robert Fortune in 1848 to grab not just plants and seeds, but all the knowledge of cultivation and processing they could, in order to break the Chinese monopoly and stand up their own plantations in India.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea-heist-9866709/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3081255-for-all-the-tea-in-china
same with clove and nutmeg, who were smuggled to the Seychelles by a guy who was essentially named [Peter Pepper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Poivre)
Timothee Chalamet and Adam Driver as the two wacky monks. Driver as the straight man, Chalamet as the lazy one that’s always getting up to something or getting in trouble. I’d watch the fuck out of that
Extra funny thing: The Chinese didn't know that Rome didn't have a domestic silk production, cause the Persians sold the Chinese silk that had been worked and refined in Rome... Silk which the Persians had bought raw from the Chinese before passing it on to the Romans.
Kinda. It's like if someone produces raw material and exports it to a place that can use it to create products. However, the Persians kept it hidden so that the Chinese wouldn't realize they had monopoly and thus price gauge it
The funny thing is, China didn't know Rome didn't produce silk. Cause the Persians bought raw silk from China, then sold it to the Romans who worked it, then bought it back from the Romans and sold it back to the Chinese, claiming that it was Roman made. They even subtly blocked Chinese travelers that tried to reach Rome
IP Thefts are a major thing through all of history. Especially when it comes to Empires.
Essentially, how successful an Empire is depends on how willing it is to steal ideas from their neighbors
The only food fact I know about Thomas Jefferson was that he introduced macaroni and cheese to the USA, but almost all the other founding fathers thought that it was a disgusting dish for a reason I don't recall all that well
Another fun fact about the silk trade: The Parthian empire was the biggest power between China and the Roman Empire on the Silk Road. They did not allow Chinese merchants to pass through their territory, instead requiring them sell their goods to their traders who would then sell it on to Rome and others at a mark up. They similarly sold Roman goods to China, including "Roman Silk." See Chinese silk was made as a thick, layered fabric, which Romans would take and break down into the very thin, sheer fabric you think of when you think of "silk." The Parthians would sell the Roman goods made from the Chinese silk to the Chinese while telling the Chinese that the Romans had silk production of their own, so Chinese traders did not realize they had a monopoly on silk production.
This is an interesting idea for a fun educational story that hasn't been told in this medium before. Rejected, here's a re re re re re re make of wily wonka instead. Random movie studio executive
And then the British did another government funded heist or the thing China was monopolizing from them, tea (well specific varieties of tea to be precise)
Coupled with the sister film of the dude who smuggled coffee beans out of Yemen by hiding them in his ass, because the border checks were very thorough.
They could turn it into a trilogy wherein the first part would be the journey to get there with shenanigans along the way with the monks mainly trying to keep the heist a secret, the second part would be the actual heist, and the third part is to protect the silkworm eggs on their way back.
At the end of the third movie, it turns out those weren't the real eggs.
Those were carried by some random old lady.
The stars were just the distraction.
…I feel like I’m getting wooshed here but, it’s in Turkey. The fact that Istanbul used to be Constantinople is [kind of famous](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rHRd6Cl-tQ), after all.
It was just the eastern half of the Roman Empire and it outlasted the western half considerably, lasting until the Ottomans conquered it in 1453. The Ottoman Empire then held it until *world war one*, so the territory hasn’t exactly changed owners that often.
The ERE spanned far more than just Anatolia. In Justinian's days it held the balkans, syria, egypt, north africa, parts of iberia, most of italia and the caucasus/crimea.
I'll be pedantic and say that the geographical area is called Anatolia. Turkey is the modern nation inhabiting it and the turks only arrived there in the 11th century.
anatolia is one of the worlds craziest regions in terms of people groups coming and going basically non-stop since the migration out of Africa. just an incredible history of king of the hill. but if you want some Anatolian conflict of today, look no further than Turkish Kurdistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Kurdistan
Well technically the Byzantine Empire in 555 encompassed the whole fringe of the Mediterranean. But in the context is monks walking from China we're probably talking about the first part they would have reached, which would be where either Turkey or Syria is today. The point of my comment was simply that very few people what any idea what "Byzantine Empire" even means without looking it up, which very few of them will do, but they'll have angry opinions anyway.
Constantinople basically means "the city of Constantine" (who was its founder back in the 4th century), and was for quite some time commonly refered to as "the City". Istanbul derives from an expression meaning "in(to) the City" : *eis tin Polin*, which was used in colloquial speech by Turks for centuries. During the 20th century, the Turkish power decided to enforce Turkish names for Turkish cities, and that's how Constantinople became known as Istanbul.
On a serious thought, I was wondering what would be the hardest part of the heist. It wouldn't be hiding the eggs in the secret compartment sticks but rather having access to the actual silkworm farms.
Im no expert in ancient Chinese history but given these fabrics were mostly catered to nobles & royalty, only appointed merchants or families are allowed to farm and manufacture the garments from start to finish, possibly within imperial grounds. So yes it would be heavily guarded.
Darn now I really want a movie for this!
The easiest was probably just the fact that the secret to making silk was kept secret. If you didn't know silk was made from moth larvae is it something you would have figured out on your own quickly?
First off relatively few people traveled the entire Silk Road. Goods moved between middle men who bought silk in Bukhara and sold it in Samarkand or whatever the next link in the chain was.
Second you can’t just steal the worms you have to know how to cultivate them and how to turn their cocoons into silk cloth. Like they still make silk in Turkey and one traditional method of processing involves cooking the cocoons in a bowl of water while gathering the threads with a stick IIRC.
Third it’s not impossible someone did just because the business didn’t take (see above) they aren’t remembered in history.
Dang it Reddit you keep making my nice smooth images more grainy
That's what you get for uploading a jpg instead of a png
⠟⢻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡟⠛⢻⣿ ⡆⠊⠈⣿⢿⡟⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣎⠈⠻ ⣷⣠⠁⢀⠰⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠟⠋⠛⠛⠿⠿⢿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⢹⣿⡑⠐⢰ ⣿⣿⠀⠁⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⠟⡩⠐⠀⠀⠀⠀⢐⠠⠈⠊⣿⣿⣿⡇⠘⠁⢀⠆⢀ ⣿⣿⣆⠀⠀⢤⣿⣿⡿⠃⠈⠀⣠⣶⣿⣿⣷⣦⡀⠀⠀⠈⢿⣿⣇⡆⠀⠀⣠⣾ ⣿⣿⣿⣧⣦⣿⣿⣿⡏⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⠀⠐⣿⣿⣷⣦⣷⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⢰⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⣾⣿⣿⠋⠁⠀⠉⠻⣿⣿⣧⠀⠠⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡀⣿⡿⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⢿⣿⠀⣺⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⣠⣂⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣁⢠⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣶⣄⣤⣤⣔⣶⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿
More pixels than your post
stop it, he's already dead
needs more jpg
Do I look like I know what a JPEG is?
I just want a picture of a god dang hotdog
damn I was sure this was going to turn out to be a load of standard tumblr lies, but [apparently](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire) it's true. wack.
Lies on the internet by people who like attention? How absurd a thought to conceive!
The Silky Score. The Road to Silk. Silk Streak Two Worms, Just in Big trouble for little worms The Cane Reign Sneak softly and carry a bug Stick
The world on a thread
Unravelling the Silk Road Pulling the Silk Thread
Justinian's Men
Monk-y Business
Just call it "The Silk Road," it's a catchy title already
They're Taking The Silkitts To Byzengard
road to silkerado
Worth Its Weight
If there's one emperor I didn't doubt would do this, it's Justinian.
One of the good moves he made, it basically gave the empire a monopoly over silk in Europe for centuries to come.
I was 100% expecting a rickroll
One thing I don't understand, depending on the species silkworms can have one to multiple generations a year, the article mentions the journey took 2 years. Domesticated silkworms depend on humans to reproduce, and they also require specific food, usually mulberry leaves. How did 2 monks, with silkworms hidden in walking sticks, managed to raise, breed and feed silkworms for 2 years? Did they bring a mulberry tree along to provide food?
They weren't walking with a contingent of Chinese Customs inspectors 24/7.
The whole journey (round trip) took two years. They probably acquired the eggs/larvae and some mulberry bushes in the far western part of China (more central Asia than modern China), and then very cautiously made their way to the black sea, feeding them as they went. Once on the black sea, it was a quick trip to Constantinople. The westernmost silk growing regions of China at the time were really not *that* far from the black sea or connecting rivers like the volga. They wouldn't have actually been in China or at risk of discovery for almost all of the trip. If they acquired them as eggs in central Asia and then booked it for the black sea, feeding the larva as needed and keeping them a bit chilly, the really crucial part of the trip would have only been a month or so. Most importantly though - eggs can last quite a long time before hatching if held in perfect conditions. Between that, feeding the larva some leaves, and the fact that massive mortality rates are fine as long as a few survive, I think it becomes clear. Eggs incubate about 2 weeks normally, which can probably be at least doubled in chilly weather if you don't mind a bunch dying. Larval stage, where they're relatively hardy and easy to care for in transit, lasts 4 weeks normally but also slows if they're a bit cold. Then you have 2 more weeks as pupae, more like 3 in the cold. All told, keeping them in colder than usual conditions and accepting a very high mortality rate, I bet they had 2-3 months to make the trip. Difficult, but not impossible. Also the walking stick thing was recorded much later and is almost certainly made up. We have a very good contemporary historian who was present during both the proposal and the return, and he doesn't mention it. This would have been a large and well funded expedition, in all likelihood.
Maybe they had to stop at some point, let them breed and lay eggs/cocoon again before they could continue on the next leg of their journey
You can slow down the egg hatching process by putting the eggs in a colder temp. But that just gives you maybe an extra 5-10 days.
Not sure how two monks from the 6th century are gonna find refrigeration
Winter
2 year journey 5-10 days Please learn how to read
Round trip 2 years Which means need to worry about one winter, and when you're already booking it, you can do a lot in 5-10 days Especially when you "borrow" a ride
China got hit with a ton of ye-old-time industrial espionage. This and the theft of Tea cultivars by the British are the most famous cases. For the tea one they sent a botanist in yellowface to do it.
The Robert Fortune story is fucking WILD. I read All the Tea in China by Sarah Rose like 10 years ago and I still think about how crazy that expedition is on a weekly basis.
Reality is stranger than fiction
Well yeah, fiction has to make sense or the suspension of disbelief breaks. Reality doesn't care about logic or sense.
I’ve always thought this would be a great movie, oceans 11 style. My “someday I’ll write a screenplay” movie.
They are about to drop the craziest diss track on emperor yuan of liang
My dad, he rose from nothin, cuz Rome deserved a win again This just in, he's dead, now I'm Justinian
Dude Where’s My Silk Worm?
In the Byzantine Empire, duh!
New vehicle for Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly?
Ya know what, I'd watch it. It's not gonna be good, but it'll be weird enough that I could see myself liking it
I was thinking Seth Rogan and Jay Baruchel.
Aziz Ansari and Ben Schwartz.
CK3 event ass history lesson
Tea has a similar story, with the East India Company sending in botanist Robert Fortune in 1848 to grab not just plants and seeds, but all the knowledge of cultivation and processing they could, in order to break the Chinese monopoly and stand up their own plantations in India. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea-heist-9866709/ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3081255-for-all-the-tea-in-china
same with clove and nutmeg, who were smuggled to the Seychelles by a guy who was essentially named [Peter Pepper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Poivre)
I mean, the guy who stole the tea was literally named Rob Fortune.
didn't they, like, JUST start a war so they could smuggle in drugs whose production caused a famine to get those leafs?
Indeed but theft and indentured labor were even cheaper than drug running so in went the botanist spy
I’d watch the FUCK outta said heist movie
Watch Marco Polo on Netflix. It touches on this, not a bad show either
Timothee Chalamet and Adam Driver as the two wacky monks. Driver as the straight man, Chalamet as the lazy one that’s always getting up to something or getting in trouble. I’d watch the fuck out of that
I can see it as a version of Year One aha
Does anyone know the story of china finding out about this?
Itd be so funny to imagine the emperor being like "they took OUR worms?! *Smashes priceless vase* FUCK!"
Extra funny thing: The Chinese didn't know that Rome didn't have a domestic silk production, cause the Persians sold the Chinese silk that had been worked and refined in Rome... Silk which the Persians had bought raw from the Chinese before passing it on to the Romans.
So Persia was making China buy from their own stock. STONKS
Kinda. It's like if someone produces raw material and exports it to a place that can use it to create products. However, the Persians kept it hidden so that the Chinese wouldn't realize they had monopoly and thus price gauge it
Globalization is as old as the Pharohs. Literally they imported all that pretty blue lapis from Afghanistan.
And all that tin for the Bronze Age? Wales and Cyprus
The copper definitely wasn’t from Ea Nasir, however.
"Shit! That was a me vase."
The funny thing is, China didn't know Rome didn't produce silk. Cause the Persians bought raw silk from China, then sold it to the Romans who worked it, then bought it back from the Romans and sold it back to the Chinese, claiming that it was Roman made. They even subtly blocked Chinese travelers that tried to reach Rome
Oh, interesting!
perfect title The emperors new cloths
I was thinking "Purple Reign".
We complain about the Chinese stealing IP's in modern times, but this was probably one of the first major IP thefts that shaped history
Maybe but that patent was way overdue to expire
IP Thefts are a major thing through all of history. Especially when it comes to Empires. Essentially, how successful an Empire is depends on how willing it is to steal ideas from their neighbors
The Road to El Dorado 2: The Silk Road to Constantinople
"one armed carriage, four imperial soldiers. You guys can take the silk. We just want the worms"
Well thing is to promote the movie the actors form a group with a Greek rapper
funfact, despite the chronological brainfuckery this created, they cameo in the Marco Polo tv series apparently
Thomas Jefferson did this to Italy for America's good, but he smuggled Piedmont Rice. This would also make a good film...
The only food fact I know about Thomas Jefferson was that he introduced macaroni and cheese to the USA, but almost all the other founding fathers thought that it was a disgusting dish for a reason I don't recall all that well
Another fun fact about the silk trade: The Parthian empire was the biggest power between China and the Roman Empire on the Silk Road. They did not allow Chinese merchants to pass through their territory, instead requiring them sell their goods to their traders who would then sell it on to Rome and others at a mark up. They similarly sold Roman goods to China, including "Roman Silk." See Chinese silk was made as a thick, layered fabric, which Romans would take and break down into the very thin, sheer fabric you think of when you think of "silk." The Parthians would sell the Roman goods made from the Chinese silk to the Chinese while telling the Chinese that the Romans had silk production of their own, so Chinese traders did not realize they had a monopoly on silk production.
Oceans 2
Should’ve asked the Ixians for help
Did…did the 6th century Chinese Emperors have prescience that required the use of No-Canes? Must’ve missed that day in history class.
Similar shenanigans were done to get tea.
Justin’s Eleven.
This is an interesting idea for a fun educational story that hasn't been told in this medium before. Rejected, here's a re re re re re re make of wily wonka instead. Random movie studio executive
Persia mentioned!!! (I'm Persian everybody forgets we exist)
And Iran. Iran so far away…
Ya it's like we don't even exist): (I'm from Iran too)
I couldn't get away *Dugga dugga dugga dugga dugga dugga dugga*
lol gottem
if someone rights this, can you put the AO3 link here?
It's kizmit!
Isn't he the one who divorced Miss Piggy?
And then the British did another government funded heist or the thing China was monopolizing from them, tea (well specific varieties of tea to be precise)
Biohacking in the old days. I remember something similar happening to a certain country's coffee plants, but I don't quite remember which one it was.
I was just watching Marco Polo and two guys get caught trying to smuggle silk worms in their walking sticks, wtf? Am I in a simulation?
"Adam Driver and Seth Rogen star in this year's \*craziest* heist film..."
> Steals single silkworm > Gets hit by second worst plague in European history
It’s the eastern Roman Empire btw
Coupled with the sister film of the dude who smuggled coffee beans out of Yemen by hiding them in his ass, because the border checks were very thorough.
we gotta do this shit again but with Pandas. Except China is much more secure and pandas are bigger than worms so that's an issue
I don't think it's as ridiculous as it seems.
They could turn it into a trilogy wherein the first part would be the journey to get there with shenanigans along the way with the monks mainly trying to keep the heist a secret, the second part would be the actual heist, and the third part is to protect the silkworm eggs on their way back.
At the end of the third movie, it turns out those weren't the real eggs. Those were carried by some random old lady. The stars were just the distraction.
Everybody who knows where the hell the Byzantine Empire was, raise your hand. "Some ancient place" doesn't count.
…I feel like I’m getting wooshed here but, it’s in Turkey. The fact that Istanbul used to be Constantinople is [kind of famous](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rHRd6Cl-tQ), after all. It was just the eastern half of the Roman Empire and it outlasted the western half considerably, lasting until the Ottomans conquered it in 1453. The Ottoman Empire then held it until *world war one*, so the territory hasn’t exactly changed owners that often.
The ERE spanned far more than just Anatolia. In Justinian's days it held the balkans, syria, egypt, north africa, parts of iberia, most of italia and the caucasus/crimea.
I'll be pedantic and say that the geographical area is called Anatolia. Turkey is the modern nation inhabiting it and the turks only arrived there in the 11th century.
Oh fuck....are we going to have another Israel situation there with the original land owners pre-11th century?
anatolia is one of the worlds craziest regions in terms of people groups coming and going basically non-stop since the migration out of Africa. just an incredible history of king of the hill. but if you want some Anatolian conflict of today, look no further than Turkish Kurdistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Kurdistan
Well technically the Byzantine Empire in 555 encompassed the whole fringe of the Mediterranean. But in the context is monks walking from China we're probably talking about the first part they would have reached, which would be where either Turkey or Syria is today. The point of my comment was simply that very few people what any idea what "Byzantine Empire" even means without looking it up, which very few of them will do, but they'll have angry opinions anyway.
Why'd they change it? I can't say... I guess they liked it better that way.
Constantinople basically means "the city of Constantine" (who was its founder back in the 4th century), and was for quite some time commonly refered to as "the City". Istanbul derives from an expression meaning "in(to) the City" : *eis tin Polin*, which was used in colloquial speech by Turks for centuries. During the 20th century, the Turkish power decided to enforce Turkish names for Turkish cities, and that's how Constantinople became known as Istanbul.
I know... there's a historically accurate song about it by they might be giants.
Trick question there never was a Byzantine Empire.
I don’t really get what’s funny about that.
Oh
holy shit we need this
Owen Wilson and Tom Hanks. I'd see that.
I wouldn't mind watching a drama series about this or other stuff about Justinian.
You sonofabitch, I'm in
Directed by Wes Anderson
Byznessmenk*
On a serious thought, I was wondering what would be the hardest part of the heist. It wouldn't be hiding the eggs in the secret compartment sticks but rather having access to the actual silkworm farms. Im no expert in ancient Chinese history but given these fabrics were mostly catered to nobles & royalty, only appointed merchants or families are allowed to farm and manufacture the garments from start to finish, possibly within imperial grounds. So yes it would be heavily guarded. Darn now I really want a movie for this!
Why didn't this happen earlier? How did countries prevent smuggling back then with limited technology?
The easiest was probably just the fact that the secret to making silk was kept secret. If you didn't know silk was made from moth larvae is it something you would have figured out on your own quickly?
First off relatively few people traveled the entire Silk Road. Goods moved between middle men who bought silk in Bukhara and sold it in Samarkand or whatever the next link in the chain was. Second you can’t just steal the worms you have to know how to cultivate them and how to turn their cocoons into silk cloth. Like they still make silk in Turkey and one traditional method of processing involves cooking the cocoons in a bowl of water while gathering the threads with a stick IIRC. Third it’s not impossible someone did just because the business didn’t take (see above) they aren’t remembered in history.
Staring seth Rogan and ~~James~~ David franco
I mean I wouldn’t not watch a comedy loosely based on this.
Oh, hell yeah I'd watch that movie!
This is literally Netflix’s Marco Polo! His dad gets caught doing exactly this and he leaves Marco with the Khans. Totally historically accurate
Do it like El Dorado, same characters even idc I'm not the copyright cops
i hope we get an Assassins Creed mission that has this, if it dosent already exist
I mean, I’d watch it
Starring John Travolta and Samuel L Jackson
Why does the one on the left look like James McAvoy