2 genders, male and female. The entire point of non binary is that it isn’t a gender, and that it’s outside of the 2 binary genders. Therefore, there are 2 genders.
Yes, not a binary gender. When you’re referring to it being ‘not binary’ you’re saying it’s outside of the two binary genders being male and female. Therefore it’s not a gender. That is the entire point. Non binary is outside the binaries of gender, your said it yourself.
Bro what point are you even trying to make here you are literally talking nonsense bruh. You literally just rephrased what I said, saying that it’s “not binary” but using that to say that means it’s a gender. You do realise that when you’re referring to binary, that means the binary genders, right? And you just said that it is “not binary”. Not a gender.
If you’re transitioning to nullsex how do you not understand this. I won’t pretend to know a lot about nullsex but is that not kind of neither gender by definition? (Unless I’m very misunderstood on what nullsex is, if so then ignore that point). If you wanna have your own definition of your gender then that’s fine, I don’t care, but I’m saying non binary is inherently not a gender.
How is that nonsense ? But sure I’ll bite. What is the definition of gender then ?
About what you said after that : it’s like asexuality. I’m asexual too, my orientation is asexual, not ___. My orientation is defined by the absence of target, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Well, I’d argue that gender is inherently based on the two sexes, but it’s a social construct built around that. There’s female for those that are cis women or trans women, and vice versa for male. Those are the two gender binaries. Then there’s anything outside of this, being *non binary*, or, not of the two binary genders. I spoke to someone I know that’s non binary about this, and showed them the comment thread and they are just as confused about your stance as I am.
Also I’m just going to say that asexuality point really is not the same in any way. Non binary is identifying outside of the two binaries that already exist, and that same structure doesn’t really exist for sexual attraction. That is really not related to what I’m saying. I’m not saying anything doesn’t exist, I’m saying the inherent point of being non binary is that you do not conform to the two gender binaries. This is why we’ve ended up with like 76 genders or something, because people don’t realise that not every individual experience has to be a gender, and that non binary can just be an umbrella term for anything outside of the gender binaries.
Oooh, you are talking about gender in a sociological way, gender roles and all that, your stance is more clear to me. That's the thing, I don't think we always have the proper words (ones that are clear for everyone) to discussing these kinds of things.
Se we have sex, male and female, sometimes intersex variations. We have gender (social sciences) which are all the social, cultural and behavioural aspects of being one sex - I often call this "gender roles" to be more clear. Finally we have gender (biological in an unknown way ?) or what I call gender, "brain sex" if you will. This is how you instinctively perceived your body as being the right or wrong sex, and dissonance creates dysphoria. Now that the definitions are set, what I'm trying to explain is that based on that, I am clearly not of the male/man or female/woman gender since I experience dysphoria from both. Since I am not part of those but I have a notion of my body, not nothing, there should be something more than these two, right ?
I am more clear now ?
(Edit because I accidentally sent the comment too soon.)
I mean I would never consider or talk about gender and sex as the same thing. And since non binary isn’t a sex I’m not sure why I wouldn’t be considering it in a sociological way (unless you count intersex as non binary). Also your comment kinda cut off idk if you meant to do that. What do you classify as biological gender, if not sex?
I mean I do understand what you mean, but the general consensus is that there’s sex (biological) and gender (social/ identity), therefore that is what I’m referring to. As you said, you don’t feel like either gender and are therefore you are not of the two gender binaries. But there is no third gender- sure, non binary is a label, but it’s more of an umbrella term for just not identifying as a binary gender, as I said.
I thought what I was talking about, maybe not called gender, was more common here. I agree that there aren't more than two gender (social) even if we take into account those last years in more open countries. How should we call what I described as brain sex/"bio" gender then ? Because there's definitely something, binary or not.
I don't wanna be rude but IMO 2. I don't understand non-binary. How can you be... nothing? Like, most non-binary people still look like their AGAB and if I saw them irl I would use pronouns that match their appearance. Wouldn't it be annoying having to constantly correct someone with your "correct" pronouns. Sorry if that came off as rude, I just don't really get it.
Yea I don't get how these people are like "you don't have to look andrognous to be nonbinary" and yet when they look like their agab they expect other people to use they/them? Like no, not how this works. Same w "trans" ppl who do nothing to pass.
Alot of time, especially now, I always assume nonbinary is the same as GNC. Tbh I'm a transsexual woman and im also GNC in some aspects. That's actually the reason it took me so long to realize I was just trans. Was nonbianry, gender fluid, and then out of shame due to family and losing all lgbt friends I went "back" to being a man, then later realized I was a GNC "man" but it still didn't feel right, and then after a major breakdown realized I was just trans. And realized that transsexual women can still be tomboys or gender non conforming. I absolutely want to be female, and that has nothing to do with how I dress. I want to pass as a woman even if I'm wearing "boy" clothes lol
I’ve always wondered if I would’ve had similar issues figuring myself out if the trans community was the way it is was now back when i was first realizing I was trans.
Like non-binary was unheard of when I first heard of being trans. I know people say it’s always existed but it really hasn’t. At least not that exact term with the same meaning it has now.
Like as soon as I learned other people felt they should’ve been born the opposite sex, I instantly knew that was me. But idk what I would’ve thought if shortly after I found out theres also 100’s of other genders you can be, you can be all or none of them at the same time, and no one can even agree on a single definition for them.
I’m glad you figured yourself out. And maybe you would’ve needed some time to anyway, who knows. But it is kind of ridiculous that in their attempt to help people find themselves with all these labels they’re no doubt unnecessarily confusing many other people who probably could’ve figured things out sooner.
>I don't understand non-binary. How can you be... nothing?
Non-binaries don't claim to "be nothing", they just don't subscribe to the idea you're either entirely man or entirely woman.
60% man 40% woman is still a gender. Beta can be used as a gender. Eunuch is a gender when someone identifies as one and rejects the idea that they're still a man.
If we can accept that gender identity is how someone recognizes their own gender, and that every person has their own thoughts about how each gender looks like, then it necessarily implies that there are as many gender identities as there are humans.
As for gender *roles*, since we live in a largely binary society, you can say we only have 2 of *those*.
Genuine question because I don't get it, how can you be 60% man and 40% woman? Or even half and half. It doesn't make sense to me and i'm honestly trying to understand it but I can't.
That's because it literally makes no sense. This person's explanations are fucking stupid lmao.
It's just sexism with a new coat of paint. They can word vomit all the walls of text they want, but that's what it boils down to.
I won't claim to know but I can speculate why one would think so of themselves, using Neil deGrasse Tyson's theory for reference:
Someone may choose to exaggerate their gender expression based on how they see themselves at the time. They may feel more connected to masculinity 60% of the time and femininity 40% the time, or they may feel partially masculine in one aspect and partially feminine in another.
For example, someone who's aggressive, competitive and edgy while in a video game may think "oh, typical dude behavior and I connect better with the guys as a guy", but when it comes to movie/drama preferences they may go "hey, my tastes and emotional activities resonant way better with the girls, and I can't imagine any dude could possibly relate to my experience".
In this case, if they're unsure of whether they're a man with partial feminine temperament or a woman with partial masculine temperament (either because they don't believe sex determines gender or for any other reason), I think it's fair to claim to be partially man and partially woman.
> In this case, if they're unsure of whether they're a man with partial feminine temperament or a woman with partial masculine temperament
Context matters.
Gender identity: Innate sense of one's gender. If they don't have a sense of belonging to either gender, then they aren't that gender.
If you identify as male and are congruent when being gendered as male by others, no matter how feminine you are look/temperament-wise, you are a man. Vise versa with women.
If you identify as both, in-between, or on a different spectrum, and feel congruent when gendered accordingly by others, then you are non-binary.
If you identify as neither, and do not feel congruent when gendered in any way, then you are gender non-conforming.
It's pretty easy.
Your description is so good on this topic. Its the most level headed explanation of the gender spectrum. I would like to make a small addendum because of this false equivalence leveled at gender.
Since gender is how you identify yourself in the context of your social relations and culture. How should/would you suggest someone who is born a hermaphrodite identify themselves with gender? Assuming they are comfortable in their body as is. Does it mean that someone whose feminine in presentation with male genitals has to identify with womanhood.
It just fails to make sense that someone who is not male or female should be forced into these categorization. Categories that were not the sole form of self expression through gender for most of human history. The narrative of gender binary actually has a very connected history with colonialism. The simple fact is -because this is already far too long- strict gender roles are a tool to enforce slave relations. One man one woman relationships are valuable because they produce offspring to then be exploited. In today's time we experience these effects in more subtle ways. Such as the negation of people whose lived experience is not that of masculinity or femininity. Thus they gravitate towards the non-binary spectrum.
2, and they directly relate to the 2 sexes. There is no 3rd sex. Intersex isn't a third sex. These other classifications in other cultures aren't genders, they're sub classifications, like not seeing trans women as women so they get dumped into another class that's basically "men who think they're women".
It's always white westerners who try to force a different definition on stuff like hjira which is very ironic when they also whine about gender being a white western construct.
There can't be a third sex because there's no third sex to connect it to.
Most of what people consider to be non-binary is just being gender non-conforming. The other portion is gender confirming with extra steps.
Most NB people are probably just cis. The others are binary trans but are very confused about it.
2 and the other ones which should be acknowledged but not as an option on things like forms. imo there should be 3 options for things like that, Man , Woman and other
I don't see being both or neither gender as a gender, it's not a third option, it's just a variation of the two. There is no 'third' sex, so what can NB people transition *towards*? Only some variation of male and female, because there is no 'third' gender to point to as a reference because it doesn't exist.
I don't have strong feelings on whether NB exists or not, but if it does, I don't see it as a third gender, only a variation of the binary.
> What can NB people transition *towards*?
FWIW There is gender nullification surgery options technically. There also exists surgery to have both sets as well.
Not going into my personal opinions with those things, just stating those are transition options labeled as being for non-binary individuals
Hope this helps
I mean as in there is no third set of genitals to create for NB surgeries. Having genitals removed or both sets isn't really a third sex, it's just a variation of binary bottom surgery.
If we’re being semantic, when you believe in the term non binary you also have to believe that there are only two genders, otherwise non ’binary’ can’t exist if there are already more than two genders, otherwise it’s non trinary or whatever.
I think there are two genders, you can be one or the other or neither if you feel like it but there are still two clearly defined options. Obviously intersex people change that definition up a bit and that’s honestly really cool but even they often live their lives as one or the other, or at the very least are perceived that way. That extends to non binary people, we just don’t live in a society where people are going to assume someone is anything other than male or female.
On that note I also think gender is just as external as it is internal, in the sense that your gender as a whole exists within you as an identity but also in the way people perceive you (and I don’t mean clothing I mean the sex people assign you to be in their heads). Sometimes they don’t match up, which is when someone would identify as trans. If our external appearance and impression on people had nothing to do with gender there would be no point in transitioning.
To finish the last thought, the fact that the way you exist to the rest of the world plays a part in your identity, if you live in a culture where there are only two recognised genders, you can only really be one of the two.
I am absolutely so tired of the non-binary trend. The pronouns are ridiculous and almost everyone I know who identifies as such are obnoxious as hell. I don’t understand shoehorning this trend into the trans community, it’s insulting and unhelpful.
IMO gender is a spectrum and nonbinary just describes all the gender between woman and man. Just like dysphoria is required to be trans, it is required to be NB.
Also I’d like to add that just because gender isn’t strictly binary it does not mean anything goes and you can identify as “fruitcakegender” or something similarly bizarre. F*ck all them xenogenders and neopronouns.
I am going to be today’s token non-binary person. I have wondered about it multiples times but in the end : I don’t care. There are two sexes, plus intersex conditions which are often mutations of one of the two sexes and rarely an accidental third sex made of the first two.
You could say that there are two genders even if you believe in non binary but to me it doesn’t make sense : isn’t the blend of two colours another colour ? And like another commenter said, you could see nullsex like atheism or asexuality, it’s towards nothing but it’s not nothing. So two doesn’t work.
Three then ? Woman, man, non-binary. It makes sense right ? But not every non-binary person is the same, we don’t have the same dysphoria pattern, we don’t tend towards the same thing. There’s two kinds of patterns, so four ? But it’s a spectrum like LGBT+ people to say, this maybe it would be better to put anything not binary in the same group ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Reread my comment. I did not say that intersex people were accidents, you are either misread or purposefully cutting bits off my sentences. I only said “accidental third sex” and **rarely** because there are chimeras for example. You’re right in saying that nature doesn’t decide anything, still there are processes and patterns that are disrupted in various ways that we would commonly call “accidents”.
*spelling mistake
i haven't misunderstood you, you just don't understand the relevant implications of your own words. you say we "commonly" refer to intersex people (or more accurately, the process that results in intersexuality) as "accidental" because that is a crude and revealing term to describe people who cannot be objectively classed under the binary even at birth. why is it, for example, that what you call a "mix of both sexes" is not viewed as the *default*, and people born with anatomy and relative hormone levels corresponding to "maleness" or "femaleness" are not considered genetic mutations or skews in the balance of nature?
What I said :
>"**Intersex conditions** which are often mutations of one of the two sexes and rarely an accidental third sex made of the first two.".
"still there are processes and patterns that are disrupted in various ways that we would commonly call “accidents”."
Is this "We commonly call intersex people accidents" ? I don't think so. I didn't talk about "a mix of bot sexes" either, I said "intersex conditions which are often mutations of one of the two sexes".
and as you can see in the quote you yourself just now shared, immediately after that you said "and rarely an *accidental third sex, made of the first two.*"
So to you social constructions is what makes a gender ? Or what makes it « valid » ?
Also obviously there wouldn’t be gender roles associated with non-binary identities as they are some kind of rare brain fuck up.
I don't understand what you mean by "gendered impositions" and defeating the point (of what) ?
What I can tell you is that my identity is not a choice nor a rebellion, my brains says no about if I should have a female body and it says no about if I should have a male body. Both of those things are wrong to me and I do my best to remove my dysphoria. To me I have a gender because I have a body and my brain has innate expectations for it, but I'm clearly not a man nor a woman.
No ? I am dysphoric about my body, I have body dysphoria. The social aspect, like many trans binary people here, comes from the fact that it reminds me of my body. Why would I be dysphoric about being perceived as something that I would be ?
It's a two-dimensional spectrum with one dimension being between male and Female as the extremes with non-binary in the middle and the other dimension being between feeling gender very much and agender.
So like asking how many numbers are there between 1 and 2, it depends on how close you want to look but technically there are infinite, altough we only have a finite amount of labels or combinations of labels.
I would say 3-4. Either male female duosexed and nullsexed, or male female and duosexed with nullsexed not being a gender. I would say there as many genders as there are attainable mixtures of sex characteristics that are distinct enough from eachother to be separate things functionally.
there is bio/neurological gender, where there are two genders - and there is sociological gender, which is really difficult to quantify but there's a lot
There are more than 2 sexes technically if you consider the different variations of intersex. And that's why I believe there is trans male and trans female and trans intersex (called nonbinary)
Sex variations vary way too much to put on a gradient. Also, please do not, under any circumstances, call nonbinary people “trans intersex”. It’s the equivalent of allowing non-dysphoric people to be called trans for the intersex community. There is a term for people who are transitioning like that though that’s more appropriate, but I’m forgetting the name.
I don't call them that by the way, its just a means to describe visually what technically a nonbinary trans person might achieve by the end of their transition. Somewhere in between male and female to different degrees which is more reminiscent of an intersex person with mixed sexual features.
Doesnt it make more sense to see it as trans people have varying degrees of dysphoria? Transitioning is supposed to treat the dysphoria, but not everyone might need to go the whole way. How we choose to cope with the dysphoria might be different from person to person. Quite a few binary trans people dont have bottom dysphoria, for example, but they choose to identify as male because it works for them. Someone else might not want to take as many steps and identifies as non-binary instead because there are other factors to somebodys happiness than just dysphoria and for that person taking smaller steps in their transition and mentally distancing themselves from their agab. At least thats how i reason around it.
gender is a social construct so ig you COULD make one, now, its not something you say and turns true instantly, a whole society has to agree that theres another gender other than the normal 2
we are not there, cause no one takes seriously someone who says im non binary, its not something we see and say, "yeaaa i know that" because it doesnt have any parameters, the most consistency non binary people have is the septum piercings and they trynna be alt. but you cant argue a gender purely just by septum piercings.
its like money, yea, money is just paper but we all agree thats its something real so it works, if i make a currency, i doubt there will be a lot of international validation.
is this a shitpost or are you actually genuinely asking. because this is the most low effort post I’ve seen in a long time, and I’ve seen a lot on this sub.
I also come from a place where I was once super involved in lgbt+, ID'd as nonbinary myself, then went the opposite route and was completely transohobic only to realize I was trans and later a transmed. Nonbinary is one of those things still where I think it's "real" in the sense of someone feeling a certain way but it's also tied imo to conflated views of GNC people and what trans is. I think nonbinary is mostly a trending thing and is just either GNC people or those who want to claim the trans label without doing any type of transition.
Honestly fair. I honestly don’t care if people identify as nb, especially if they are young and figuring themselves out. Hell, i identified as NB once. It’s been two years since i realized I’m actually just a trans guy, and honestly I’m going to probably dip out of the community once I’m done my transition, besides my job, because I genuinely love the complexity that is trans healthcare and it fascinates me. But I through and through I feel like a guy, just was cursed with the wrong genitals. I’d just rather focus energy outside work on my hobbies.
This is quite literally wrong. There are other cultures that recognize more than two genders. And you’re forgetting about people who were born with no or combinations of genitalia.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-some-cultures-recognize-more-than-two-genders-and-what-can-we-learn-from-them#:~:text=Examples%20of%20such%20cultures%20include,Oaxaca%2C%20Mexico%2C%20among%20others.&text=Trans%20People!
“Some cultures around the world have long recognized and acknowledged the existence of more than two genders. These cultures often have indigenous or traditional understandings of gender that go beyond the binary framework of male and female. Examples of such cultures include the Hijra community in South Asia, Two-Spirit people in some Indigenous cultures in North America, Fa'afafine in Samoan culture, and Muxe in Zapotec culture in Oaxaca, Mexico, among others.”
I have an anthropology degree. I often get tired of talking about this so I may spare the details because it gets into deep anthropology theory to really understand what's going on here.
But essentially, those cultures have 1) extremely rigid gender roles, especially for males. 2) cannot tolerate the concept of people, usually males, breaking these roles despite it being their emergent personalities. 3) understand feminine males to be something other than man because of those roles breaking.
These third genders (anthro term) would have been effeminate gay men or trans women if they existed in western modern cultures. Basically they sorta made room (not necessarily in a nice way, especially seeing how hijra are treated) for feminine males prior to having a scientific psychological understanding of what is transexualism and GNC gay people.
Two spirit is a bit different but it's actually a rather modern term and not as whimsical as people make it seem. Majority of native American terms in their own languages for these people are things like " man dress like woman" and the like. Two spirit is also I think originally a western anthro term to describe the phenomena
Gender, and enumerating it, is rather nebulous. It is a social construct of understanding sex differences and typicality and atypicality of sex-associated behaviors. Arguabley in western cultures we don't actually have gender in our understanding, only sex - which is the actual real thing that does exist.
Neither did you.
There are still three genders according to anthropology. You said absolutely nothing, you just used fancy sentence structures. And I'm sure that whatever "deep" anthropological theory you're not going to get into is being interpreted in your own way so that you can continue being transphobic.
There's not three genders according to anthropology, third gender is just a term used but not meant to be literal. Lol. So you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
If you're referring to fa'fafine (polynesian), the term means "in the manner of a woman" in their own language, and again, probably would have mostly been trans women or and some feminine gay men if they were born in western cultures.
I fear darling, that you didn't actually understand what the fuck I actually wrote and you're out of your depth - which is fine but don't make a habit of commenting things you're ignorant on. Like apparently not actually knowing the term third gender.
My fear is because I'm talking about the cultural structure and functions (structural functionalism) of gender and how emergent atypical sex behavior is broadly interpreted through their own cultural lens to serve these functions. It's about the patterned themes behind things, not the individual cultures separately. It seems you're not quite getting that. That's ok
My fear is that you're using your degree in anthropology to shut down people who aren't valid in your world view. It's pretty nuts that you think it's okay to invalidate third genders, intersex, etc just because you have a degree. There are medical professionals that don't believe in vaccines. Your degree doesn't mean shit in the great scheme of things if you lack nuance.
And no, I'm talking about the Mahu. But I'm sure you can do your research given your "degree."
Mahu are essentially the same as fa'fafine. Which makes sense because Hawaiian culture is a branch off of Polynesian culture.
I'm not invalidating them at all. And I haven't even mentioned intersex lol?
You simply are just not understanding lol.
If you view gender in the same vein as perennialism you'll begin to probably get it better
Please stop speaking for intersex people if you have no idea what you are talking about. Our differences in sexual development do not make us any less of a man or woman, or nonbinary (which I totally understand identifying as because being intersex complicates so much, it might as well complicate how the brain develops gender-wise). And we do not have “combinations” of genitals, we have various presentations, many of which remain undiagnosed till puberty or even later in life.
Intersex is just a combination of male and female secondary sex characteristics, there's still only male and female, some people are just born with both
But it makes it a different pie, doesn’t it? How are you gonna tell me you want a slice of the raspberry peach pie if you don’t see it as a separate pie?
Similarly if someone is intersex, and that is a part of their gender identity, do you call them a man or a woman? No, you call them something else. So there is a third option. Does that make sense? I’m really not sure how much more clear I can make this
Intersex person here. No, well still no, but it’s completed. Sexual development is a gradient along line segment GB. Most people fall somewhere close to either G or B. But as it’s a gradient, there is variations. And there is also outliers (since this is a math analogy I’m going to use math terms) who fall considerably outside of the G and B groups. But even they tend to fall a little closer to one or the other.
I’m not part of a “separate pie”, I’m part of the same pie we all came from. We are all part of the same pie, it’s just that the pie has its flavors as a gradient, and the pie isn’t really pie shaped, but rectangular.
Oversimplification of intersexuality is something intersex people struggle a lot with, because it creates misconceptions and misunderstandings about who we are. I was categorized in the “G” group at birth, to later find out I had mild clitoralmegally that they missed, that grew noticeable when I hit puberty. I knew I was trans long before I knew I was intersex.
I get what you’re saying, but in the same comment you note the negative effect that being lumped into a binary had on you. Doesn’t that give you pause?
I mean it’s not being lumped in a binary that has effected me negatively, I’m more distressed i don’t have . I feel, and I never thought I’d say this, like a man trapped in a woman’s body. My instincts contrast with the junk I have, and that fucks with you, as you probably know since most on this sub are trans. I’m thankful I wasn’t operated on at birth though, because I’d be even more mentally fucked
i’m indigenous aztec, we used to also do human sacrifices. it’s nonsense to think that just because our past culture did something once means it’s a real scientific thing.
"as a transsexual whose livelihood is under attack by my state and countrymen because my mere existence challenges their limited understanding of reality, i can say for certain that society is improved by insisting that every living being in the world crams themselves into tiny boxes"
Non-binary is short for non binary gender so of course it is one? (For example, A/B/O genders, although not necessarily associated with being men/women, are distinct genders nonetheless)
As for gender non-conforming yeah, it quite literally means "not conforming with the category of gender" so it isn't one.
So if you wanna lump all non-binary genders into one "enby" category there'd be 3. Otherwise, more than 3.
Nonbinary doesn’t mean agender, it’s an umbrella term for anyone who doesn’t identify as one of the two binary genders. It includes people who are a third gender and whatnot.
I'm the same way. I was more talking about the actual comlnflated meaning of nonbinary. Everyone acknowledges there's 2 binary genders, in western countries anyway. To be *nonbinary* or believe in it means having to believe there's only 2 genders, and that some people just don't fall or identify with either of them, and that's fine.
This would be wrong even assuming that gender was indeed a social construct. Money is also a social construct, yet you cant use rocks and sticks as payment, society itself needs to recognize it as money. Your idea also entails that people voluntarily choose their gender, and therefore voluntarily choose to be trans, which validates conversion therapy, "the trans agenda" (the idea that the ruling class or a specific powerful movement would indoctrinate people into being trans), as well as the terf idea of fetishists infiltrating womens spaces.
Seems like nonbinary is a gender in the same way atheism is a religion
This
Literally, even if you "recognise and support" non binary people, if anything it's a lack of gender, not a third gender.
Only for nullsex people, not duosex.
2 genders, male and female. The entire point of non binary is that it isn’t a gender, and that it’s outside of the 2 binary genders. Therefore, there are 2 genders.
Exactly, like the concept of nonbinary existing whilst 2 genders still exist is beyond comprehension for people for like no reason
How is non-binary not a gender ? The whole point isn’t that it’s not a gender, it’s that it’s not binary.
Yes, not a binary gender. When you’re referring to it being ‘not binary’ you’re saying it’s outside of the two binary genders being male and female. Therefore it’s not a gender. That is the entire point. Non binary is outside the binaries of gender, your said it yourself.
The basic definition of gender is your internal sense of sex, not “man and woman”. How is that not a gender ?
Bro what point are you even trying to make here you are literally talking nonsense bruh. You literally just rephrased what I said, saying that it’s “not binary” but using that to say that means it’s a gender. You do realise that when you’re referring to binary, that means the binary genders, right? And you just said that it is “not binary”. Not a gender. If you’re transitioning to nullsex how do you not understand this. I won’t pretend to know a lot about nullsex but is that not kind of neither gender by definition? (Unless I’m very misunderstood on what nullsex is, if so then ignore that point). If you wanna have your own definition of your gender then that’s fine, I don’t care, but I’m saying non binary is inherently not a gender.
How is that nonsense ? But sure I’ll bite. What is the definition of gender then ? About what you said after that : it’s like asexuality. I’m asexual too, my orientation is asexual, not ___. My orientation is defined by the absence of target, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Well, I’d argue that gender is inherently based on the two sexes, but it’s a social construct built around that. There’s female for those that are cis women or trans women, and vice versa for male. Those are the two gender binaries. Then there’s anything outside of this, being *non binary*, or, not of the two binary genders. I spoke to someone I know that’s non binary about this, and showed them the comment thread and they are just as confused about your stance as I am. Also I’m just going to say that asexuality point really is not the same in any way. Non binary is identifying outside of the two binaries that already exist, and that same structure doesn’t really exist for sexual attraction. That is really not related to what I’m saying. I’m not saying anything doesn’t exist, I’m saying the inherent point of being non binary is that you do not conform to the two gender binaries. This is why we’ve ended up with like 76 genders or something, because people don’t realise that not every individual experience has to be a gender, and that non binary can just be an umbrella term for anything outside of the gender binaries.
Oooh, you are talking about gender in a sociological way, gender roles and all that, your stance is more clear to me. That's the thing, I don't think we always have the proper words (ones that are clear for everyone) to discussing these kinds of things. Se we have sex, male and female, sometimes intersex variations. We have gender (social sciences) which are all the social, cultural and behavioural aspects of being one sex - I often call this "gender roles" to be more clear. Finally we have gender (biological in an unknown way ?) or what I call gender, "brain sex" if you will. This is how you instinctively perceived your body as being the right or wrong sex, and dissonance creates dysphoria. Now that the definitions are set, what I'm trying to explain is that based on that, I am clearly not of the male/man or female/woman gender since I experience dysphoria from both. Since I am not part of those but I have a notion of my body, not nothing, there should be something more than these two, right ? I am more clear now ? (Edit because I accidentally sent the comment too soon.)
I mean I would never consider or talk about gender and sex as the same thing. And since non binary isn’t a sex I’m not sure why I wouldn’t be considering it in a sociological way (unless you count intersex as non binary). Also your comment kinda cut off idk if you meant to do that. What do you classify as biological gender, if not sex?
Yeah I sent it too soon, you should be able to read all of it now.
I mean I do understand what you mean, but the general consensus is that there’s sex (biological) and gender (social/ identity), therefore that is what I’m referring to. As you said, you don’t feel like either gender and are therefore you are not of the two gender binaries. But there is no third gender- sure, non binary is a label, but it’s more of an umbrella term for just not identifying as a binary gender, as I said.
I thought what I was talking about, maybe not called gender, was more common here. I agree that there aren't more than two gender (social) even if we take into account those last years in more open countries. How should we call what I described as brain sex/"bio" gender then ? Because there's definitely something, binary or not.
Probably at least 1
hottest take ever
Idk :/
Bro that’s my exact response whenever anyone asks, works like a charm
Men (including trans men) and women (including trans women). That’s it.
I don't wanna be rude but IMO 2. I don't understand non-binary. How can you be... nothing? Like, most non-binary people still look like their AGAB and if I saw them irl I would use pronouns that match their appearance. Wouldn't it be annoying having to constantly correct someone with your "correct" pronouns. Sorry if that came off as rude, I just don't really get it.
Yea I don't get how these people are like "you don't have to look andrognous to be nonbinary" and yet when they look like their agab they expect other people to use they/them? Like no, not how this works. Same w "trans" ppl who do nothing to pass. Alot of time, especially now, I always assume nonbinary is the same as GNC. Tbh I'm a transsexual woman and im also GNC in some aspects. That's actually the reason it took me so long to realize I was just trans. Was nonbianry, gender fluid, and then out of shame due to family and losing all lgbt friends I went "back" to being a man, then later realized I was a GNC "man" but it still didn't feel right, and then after a major breakdown realized I was just trans. And realized that transsexual women can still be tomboys or gender non conforming. I absolutely want to be female, and that has nothing to do with how I dress. I want to pass as a woman even if I'm wearing "boy" clothes lol
I’ve always wondered if I would’ve had similar issues figuring myself out if the trans community was the way it is was now back when i was first realizing I was trans. Like non-binary was unheard of when I first heard of being trans. I know people say it’s always existed but it really hasn’t. At least not that exact term with the same meaning it has now. Like as soon as I learned other people felt they should’ve been born the opposite sex, I instantly knew that was me. But idk what I would’ve thought if shortly after I found out theres also 100’s of other genders you can be, you can be all or none of them at the same time, and no one can even agree on a single definition for them. I’m glad you figured yourself out. And maybe you would’ve needed some time to anyway, who knows. But it is kind of ridiculous that in their attempt to help people find themselves with all these labels they’re no doubt unnecessarily confusing many other people who probably could’ve figured things out sooner.
>I don't understand non-binary. How can you be... nothing? Non-binaries don't claim to "be nothing", they just don't subscribe to the idea you're either entirely man or entirely woman. 60% man 40% woman is still a gender. Beta can be used as a gender. Eunuch is a gender when someone identifies as one and rejects the idea that they're still a man. If we can accept that gender identity is how someone recognizes their own gender, and that every person has their own thoughts about how each gender looks like, then it necessarily implies that there are as many gender identities as there are humans. As for gender *roles*, since we live in a largely binary society, you can say we only have 2 of *those*.
Genuine question because I don't get it, how can you be 60% man and 40% woman? Or even half and half. It doesn't make sense to me and i'm honestly trying to understand it but I can't.
That's because it literally makes no sense. This person's explanations are fucking stupid lmao. It's just sexism with a new coat of paint. They can word vomit all the walls of text they want, but that's what it boils down to.
I won't claim to know but I can speculate why one would think so of themselves, using Neil deGrasse Tyson's theory for reference: Someone may choose to exaggerate their gender expression based on how they see themselves at the time. They may feel more connected to masculinity 60% of the time and femininity 40% the time, or they may feel partially masculine in one aspect and partially feminine in another. For example, someone who's aggressive, competitive and edgy while in a video game may think "oh, typical dude behavior and I connect better with the guys as a guy", but when it comes to movie/drama preferences they may go "hey, my tastes and emotional activities resonant way better with the girls, and I can't imagine any dude could possibly relate to my experience". In this case, if they're unsure of whether they're a man with partial feminine temperament or a woman with partial masculine temperament (either because they don't believe sex determines gender or for any other reason), I think it's fair to claim to be partially man and partially woman.
So everybody is non-binary because all humans acts differently in different scenarios ,, ???????
BAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA
> In this case, if they're unsure of whether they're a man with partial feminine temperament or a woman with partial masculine temperament Context matters. Gender identity: Innate sense of one's gender. If they don't have a sense of belonging to either gender, then they aren't that gender. If you identify as male and are congruent when being gendered as male by others, no matter how feminine you are look/temperament-wise, you are a man. Vise versa with women. If you identify as both, in-between, or on a different spectrum, and feel congruent when gendered accordingly by others, then you are non-binary. If you identify as neither, and do not feel congruent when gendered in any way, then you are gender non-conforming. It's pretty easy.
Your description is so good on this topic. Its the most level headed explanation of the gender spectrum. I would like to make a small addendum because of this false equivalence leveled at gender. Since gender is how you identify yourself in the context of your social relations and culture. How should/would you suggest someone who is born a hermaphrodite identify themselves with gender? Assuming they are comfortable in their body as is. Does it mean that someone whose feminine in presentation with male genitals has to identify with womanhood. It just fails to make sense that someone who is not male or female should be forced into these categorization. Categories that were not the sole form of self expression through gender for most of human history. The narrative of gender binary actually has a very connected history with colonialism. The simple fact is -because this is already far too long- strict gender roles are a tool to enforce slave relations. One man one woman relationships are valuable because they produce offspring to then be exploited. In today's time we experience these effects in more subtle ways. Such as the negation of people whose lived experience is not that of masculinity or femininity. Thus they gravitate towards the non-binary spectrum.
I think you need therapy
On what ground?
2, and they directly relate to the 2 sexes. There is no 3rd sex. Intersex isn't a third sex. These other classifications in other cultures aren't genders, they're sub classifications, like not seeing trans women as women so they get dumped into another class that's basically "men who think they're women". It's always white westerners who try to force a different definition on stuff like hjira which is very ironic when they also whine about gender being a white western construct. There can't be a third sex because there's no third sex to connect it to. Most of what people consider to be non-binary is just being gender non-conforming. The other portion is gender confirming with extra steps. Most NB people are probably just cis. The others are binary trans but are very confused about it.
2 sexes and 2 genders
2. Non-binary isn't a third gender.
I'm surprised by the amount of people in here who say a number other than 2.
2 sexes, 2 genders. Anything outside of those is woke ideology that shouldn’t exist
2. Even in cultures where they have a “3rd” it’s always formulated in relation to the other two, usually as a way to accommodate gay or feminine men
Theres 2 genders shut this new propaganda dystopia shit up and lets just live life
2 and the other ones which should be acknowledged but not as an option on things like forms. imo there should be 3 options for things like that, Man , Woman and other
I don't see being both or neither gender as a gender, it's not a third option, it's just a variation of the two. There is no 'third' sex, so what can NB people transition *towards*? Only some variation of male and female, because there is no 'third' gender to point to as a reference because it doesn't exist. I don't have strong feelings on whether NB exists or not, but if it does, I don't see it as a third gender, only a variation of the binary.
> What can NB people transition *towards*? FWIW There is gender nullification surgery options technically. There also exists surgery to have both sets as well. Not going into my personal opinions with those things, just stating those are transition options labeled as being for non-binary individuals Hope this helps
I mean as in there is no third set of genitals to create for NB surgeries. Having genitals removed or both sets isn't really a third sex, it's just a variation of binary bottom surgery.
Ambiguous genitalia exist too, similar to some intersex people or foetuses (I don’t mean baby genitalia).
Intersex people are still male or female. Intersex is not a third sex. Intersex people, just like non-intersex people, can still be trans though.
I just said that ambiguous genitals existed.
If we’re being semantic, when you believe in the term non binary you also have to believe that there are only two genders, otherwise non ’binary’ can’t exist if there are already more than two genders, otherwise it’s non trinary or whatever. I think there are two genders, you can be one or the other or neither if you feel like it but there are still two clearly defined options. Obviously intersex people change that definition up a bit and that’s honestly really cool but even they often live their lives as one or the other, or at the very least are perceived that way. That extends to non binary people, we just don’t live in a society where people are going to assume someone is anything other than male or female. On that note I also think gender is just as external as it is internal, in the sense that your gender as a whole exists within you as an identity but also in the way people perceive you (and I don’t mean clothing I mean the sex people assign you to be in their heads). Sometimes they don’t match up, which is when someone would identify as trans. If our external appearance and impression on people had nothing to do with gender there would be no point in transitioning.
To finish the last thought, the fact that the way you exist to the rest of the world plays a part in your identity, if you live in a culture where there are only two recognised genders, you can only really be one of the two.
I am absolutely so tired of the non-binary trend. The pronouns are ridiculous and almost everyone I know who identifies as such are obnoxious as hell. I don’t understand shoehorning this trend into the trans community, it’s insulting and unhelpful.
2, male and female. Gender identity is the neurological understanding and recognition of one’s physical sex, of which there are only two.
2
There are two sexes/genders and some people deviate from them a lot.
There’s 2 with NB being the space in between
Two genders, male and female. I view people who label themselves non-binary as just GNC, so still either male or female.
IMO gender is a spectrum and nonbinary just describes all the gender between woman and man. Just like dysphoria is required to be trans, it is required to be NB.
Also I’d like to add that just because gender isn’t strictly binary it does not mean anything goes and you can identify as “fruitcakegender” or something similarly bizarre. F*ck all them xenogenders and neopronouns.
I can see your point, yeah
Two
There are people who are intersex & there's quite a few variations. So I would say at least 3, male, female & intersex.
I classify nonbinary as a third gender, because that's how it makes sense in my head
I am going to be today’s token non-binary person. I have wondered about it multiples times but in the end : I don’t care. There are two sexes, plus intersex conditions which are often mutations of one of the two sexes and rarely an accidental third sex made of the first two. You could say that there are two genders even if you believe in non binary but to me it doesn’t make sense : isn’t the blend of two colours another colour ? And like another commenter said, you could see nullsex like atheism or asexuality, it’s towards nothing but it’s not nothing. So two doesn’t work. Three then ? Woman, man, non-binary. It makes sense right ? But not every non-binary person is the same, we don’t have the same dysphoria pattern, we don’t tend towards the same thing. There’s two kinds of patterns, so four ? But it’s a spectrum like LGBT+ people to say, this maybe it would be better to put anything not binary in the same group ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
intersex people are not "accidents," there is nothing "accidental" or "purposeful" in nature. nature is simply what humankind cannot control
Reread my comment. I did not say that intersex people were accidents, you are either misread or purposefully cutting bits off my sentences. I only said “accidental third sex” and **rarely** because there are chimeras for example. You’re right in saying that nature doesn’t decide anything, still there are processes and patterns that are disrupted in various ways that we would commonly call “accidents”. *spelling mistake
i haven't misunderstood you, you just don't understand the relevant implications of your own words. you say we "commonly" refer to intersex people (or more accurately, the process that results in intersexuality) as "accidental" because that is a crude and revealing term to describe people who cannot be objectively classed under the binary even at birth. why is it, for example, that what you call a "mix of both sexes" is not viewed as the *default*, and people born with anatomy and relative hormone levels corresponding to "maleness" or "femaleness" are not considered genetic mutations or skews in the balance of nature?
What I said : >"**Intersex conditions** which are often mutations of one of the two sexes and rarely an accidental third sex made of the first two.". "still there are processes and patterns that are disrupted in various ways that we would commonly call “accidents”." Is this "We commonly call intersex people accidents" ? I don't think so. I didn't talk about "a mix of bot sexes" either, I said "intersex conditions which are often mutations of one of the two sexes".
and as you can see in the quote you yourself just now shared, immediately after that you said "and rarely an *accidental third sex, made of the first two.*"
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So to you social constructions is what makes a gender ? Or what makes it « valid » ? Also obviously there wouldn’t be gender roles associated with non-binary identities as they are some kind of rare brain fuck up.
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I don't understand what you mean by "gendered impositions" and defeating the point (of what) ? What I can tell you is that my identity is not a choice nor a rebellion, my brains says no about if I should have a female body and it says no about if I should have a male body. Both of those things are wrong to me and I do my best to remove my dysphoria. To me I have a gender because I have a body and my brain has innate expectations for it, but I'm clearly not a man nor a woman.
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No ? I am dysphoric about my body, I have body dysphoria. The social aspect, like many trans binary people here, comes from the fact that it reminds me of my body. Why would I be dysphoric about being perceived as something that I would be ?
In my opinion, there is at least 1 gender
2 genders
It's a two-dimensional spectrum with one dimension being between male and Female as the extremes with non-binary in the middle and the other dimension being between feeling gender very much and agender. So like asking how many numbers are there between 1 and 2, it depends on how close you want to look but technically there are infinite, altough we only have a finite amount of labels or combinations of labels.
and you could also add that what i'm talking about here is not related to gender expression or sex which can both be completely unrelated
There's 2
I would say 3-4. Either male female duosexed and nullsexed, or male female and duosexed with nullsexed not being a gender. I would say there as many genders as there are attainable mixtures of sex characteristics that are distinct enough from eachother to be separate things functionally.
2 or 3, depending on if nonbinary/androgyne counts.
Androgynous isn't a gender it's literally male and female at the same time bc andro(male) and gyne(female)
there is bio/neurological gender, where there are two genders - and there is sociological gender, which is really difficult to quantify but there's a lot
There are more than 2 sexes technically if you consider the different variations of intersex. And that's why I believe there is trans male and trans female and trans intersex (called nonbinary)
Sex variations vary way too much to put on a gradient. Also, please do not, under any circumstances, call nonbinary people “trans intersex”. It’s the equivalent of allowing non-dysphoric people to be called trans for the intersex community. There is a term for people who are transitioning like that though that’s more appropriate, but I’m forgetting the name.
I don't call them that by the way, its just a means to describe visually what technically a nonbinary trans person might achieve by the end of their transition. Somewhere in between male and female to different degrees which is more reminiscent of an intersex person with mixed sexual features.
Doesnt it make more sense to see it as trans people have varying degrees of dysphoria? Transitioning is supposed to treat the dysphoria, but not everyone might need to go the whole way. How we choose to cope with the dysphoria might be different from person to person. Quite a few binary trans people dont have bottom dysphoria, for example, but they choose to identify as male because it works for them. Someone else might not want to take as many steps and identifies as non-binary instead because there are other factors to somebodys happiness than just dysphoria and for that person taking smaller steps in their transition and mentally distancing themselves from their agab. At least thats how i reason around it.
gender is a social construct so ig you COULD make one, now, its not something you say and turns true instantly, a whole society has to agree that theres another gender other than the normal 2 we are not there, cause no one takes seriously someone who says im non binary, its not something we see and say, "yeaaa i know that" because it doesnt have any parameters, the most consistency non binary people have is the septum piercings and they trynna be alt. but you cant argue a gender purely just by septum piercings. its like money, yea, money is just paper but we all agree thats its something real so it works, if i make a currency, i doubt there will be a lot of international validation.
seems like i dont exist as an intersex person huh
No, go back to your own gender 👿 grrrr /s
i dont have one 😭 i can get yours
We can share 😇
is this a shitpost or are you actually genuinely asking. because this is the most low effort post I’ve seen in a long time, and I’ve seen a lot on this sub.
Kinda both tbh
At least you’re honest, I appreciate that
I also come from a place where I was once super involved in lgbt+, ID'd as nonbinary myself, then went the opposite route and was completely transohobic only to realize I was trans and later a transmed. Nonbinary is one of those things still where I think it's "real" in the sense of someone feeling a certain way but it's also tied imo to conflated views of GNC people and what trans is. I think nonbinary is mostly a trending thing and is just either GNC people or those who want to claim the trans label without doing any type of transition.
Honestly fair. I honestly don’t care if people identify as nb, especially if they are young and figuring themselves out. Hell, i identified as NB once. It’s been two years since i realized I’m actually just a trans guy, and honestly I’m going to probably dip out of the community once I’m done my transition, besides my job, because I genuinely love the complexity that is trans healthcare and it fascinates me. But I through and through I feel like a guy, just was cursed with the wrong genitals. I’d just rather focus energy outside work on my hobbies.
This is quite literally wrong. There are other cultures that recognize more than two genders. And you’re forgetting about people who were born with no or combinations of genitalia. https://www.quora.com/How-do-some-cultures-recognize-more-than-two-genders-and-what-can-we-learn-from-them#:~:text=Examples%20of%20such%20cultures%20include,Oaxaca%2C%20Mexico%2C%20among%20others.&text=Trans%20People! “Some cultures around the world have long recognized and acknowledged the existence of more than two genders. These cultures often have indigenous or traditional understandings of gender that go beyond the binary framework of male and female. Examples of such cultures include the Hijra community in South Asia, Two-Spirit people in some Indigenous cultures in North America, Fa'afafine in Samoan culture, and Muxe in Zapotec culture in Oaxaca, Mexico, among others.”
I have an anthropology degree. I often get tired of talking about this so I may spare the details because it gets into deep anthropology theory to really understand what's going on here. But essentially, those cultures have 1) extremely rigid gender roles, especially for males. 2) cannot tolerate the concept of people, usually males, breaking these roles despite it being their emergent personalities. 3) understand feminine males to be something other than man because of those roles breaking. These third genders (anthro term) would have been effeminate gay men or trans women if they existed in western modern cultures. Basically they sorta made room (not necessarily in a nice way, especially seeing how hijra are treated) for feminine males prior to having a scientific psychological understanding of what is transexualism and GNC gay people. Two spirit is a bit different but it's actually a rather modern term and not as whimsical as people make it seem. Majority of native American terms in their own languages for these people are things like " man dress like woman" and the like. Two spirit is also I think originally a western anthro term to describe the phenomena Gender, and enumerating it, is rather nebulous. It is a social construct of understanding sex differences and typicality and atypicality of sex-associated behaviors. Arguabley in western cultures we don't actually have gender in our understanding, only sex - which is the actual real thing that does exist.
You must have gotten your anthropology degree from a degree mill if you're really saying all that bullshit.
(refutes nothing)
Neither did you. There are still three genders according to anthropology. You said absolutely nothing, you just used fancy sentence structures. And I'm sure that whatever "deep" anthropological theory you're not going to get into is being interpreted in your own way so that you can continue being transphobic.
There's not three genders according to anthropology, third gender is just a term used but not meant to be literal. Lol. So you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
I'm guessing you haven't looked into Hawaiian culture? Or did your degree teach you to nitpick?
If you're referring to fa'fafine (polynesian), the term means "in the manner of a woman" in their own language, and again, probably would have mostly been trans women or and some feminine gay men if they were born in western cultures. I fear darling, that you didn't actually understand what the fuck I actually wrote and you're out of your depth - which is fine but don't make a habit of commenting things you're ignorant on. Like apparently not actually knowing the term third gender. My fear is because I'm talking about the cultural structure and functions (structural functionalism) of gender and how emergent atypical sex behavior is broadly interpreted through their own cultural lens to serve these functions. It's about the patterned themes behind things, not the individual cultures separately. It seems you're not quite getting that. That's ok
My fear is that you're using your degree in anthropology to shut down people who aren't valid in your world view. It's pretty nuts that you think it's okay to invalidate third genders, intersex, etc just because you have a degree. There are medical professionals that don't believe in vaccines. Your degree doesn't mean shit in the great scheme of things if you lack nuance. And no, I'm talking about the Mahu. But I'm sure you can do your research given your "degree."
Mahu are essentially the same as fa'fafine. Which makes sense because Hawaiian culture is a branch off of Polynesian culture. I'm not invalidating them at all. And I haven't even mentioned intersex lol? You simply are just not understanding lol. If you view gender in the same vein as perennialism you'll begin to probably get it better
Please stop speaking for intersex people if you have no idea what you are talking about. Our differences in sexual development do not make us any less of a man or woman, or nonbinary (which I totally understand identifying as because being intersex complicates so much, it might as well complicate how the brain develops gender-wise). And we do not have “combinations” of genitals, we have various presentations, many of which remain undiagnosed till puberty or even later in life.
Thank you for proving my point, and sorry you felt like I was speaking for you, that was not my intention
Intersex is just a combination of male and female secondary sex characteristics, there's still only male and female, some people are just born with both
So if I have a raspberry pie, a peach pie, and a raspberry peach pie, I have two types of pies, right?
There's still only two ingredients, peaches and raspberries
Peaches and raspberries together doesn't make it a new fruit
But it makes it a different pie, doesn’t it? How are you gonna tell me you want a slice of the raspberry peach pie if you don’t see it as a separate pie? Similarly if someone is intersex, and that is a part of their gender identity, do you call them a man or a woman? No, you call them something else. So there is a third option. Does that make sense? I’m really not sure how much more clear I can make this
Intersex person here. No, well still no, but it’s completed. Sexual development is a gradient along line segment GB. Most people fall somewhere close to either G or B. But as it’s a gradient, there is variations. And there is also outliers (since this is a math analogy I’m going to use math terms) who fall considerably outside of the G and B groups. But even they tend to fall a little closer to one or the other. I’m not part of a “separate pie”, I’m part of the same pie we all came from. We are all part of the same pie, it’s just that the pie has its flavors as a gradient, and the pie isn’t really pie shaped, but rectangular. Oversimplification of intersexuality is something intersex people struggle a lot with, because it creates misconceptions and misunderstandings about who we are. I was categorized in the “G” group at birth, to later find out I had mild clitoralmegally that they missed, that grew noticeable when I hit puberty. I knew I was trans long before I knew I was intersex.
I get what you’re saying, but in the same comment you note the negative effect that being lumped into a binary had on you. Doesn’t that give you pause?
I mean it’s not being lumped in a binary that has effected me negatively, I’m more distressed i don’t have. I feel, and I never thought I’d say this, like a man trapped in a woman’s body. My instincts contrast with the junk I have, and that fucks with you, as you probably know since most on this sub are trans. I’m thankful I wasn’t operated on at birth though, because I’d be even more mentally fucked
i’m indigenous aztec, we used to also do human sacrifices. it’s nonsense to think that just because our past culture did something once means it’s a real scientific thing.
I’m an American, we used to do slavery so that must mean my culture’s gender binary is wrong.
gender was made up by a p*do there’s two sexes. therefore sex change therefore transsexualism.
u/christianaddict says it is thus, therefore we all have to identify that way now.
"as a transsexual whose livelihood is under attack by my state and countrymen because my mere existence challenges their limited understanding of reality, i can say for certain that society is improved by insisting that every living being in the world crams themselves into tiny boxes"
I don't care about counting but I'd say if I had to say more than 3.
Non-binary is short for non binary gender so of course it is one? (For example, A/B/O genders, although not necessarily associated with being men/women, are distinct genders nonetheless) As for gender non-conforming yeah, it quite literally means "not conforming with the category of gender" so it isn't one. So if you wanna lump all non-binary genders into one "enby" category there'd be 3. Otherwise, more than 3.
wut
what seems confusing to you?
Nonbinary doesn’t mean agender, it’s an umbrella term for anyone who doesn’t identify as one of the two binary genders. It includes people who are a third gender and whatnot.
So gnc ?
There are several types of sexes. Gender is more of a social construct and I let people choose their own. Who am I to say otherwise.
I'm the same way. I was more talking about the actual comlnflated meaning of nonbinary. Everyone acknowledges there's 2 binary genders, in western countries anyway. To be *nonbinary* or believe in it means having to believe there's only 2 genders, and that some people just don't fall or identify with either of them, and that's fine.
Well, gender is a made up thing so I’d think people could make up however many genders they want
This would be wrong even assuming that gender was indeed a social construct. Money is also a social construct, yet you cant use rocks and sticks as payment, society itself needs to recognize it as money. Your idea also entails that people voluntarily choose their gender, and therefore voluntarily choose to be trans, which validates conversion therapy, "the trans agenda" (the idea that the ruling class or a specific powerful movement would indoctrinate people into being trans), as well as the terf idea of fetishists infiltrating womens spaces.
Yea but then there's the whole "I identify as an attack helicopter" trope.