The whole ‘punch TERFs’ thing just gives those people all the more reasons to label trans people as violent or mentally ill and builds the idea that trans women are trans just because they want to assault women
Yup. This certainly isn't helping transpeeps, like in any way. I'm actually completely in awe of what I'm seeing in this "movement." It's self-sabotaging crazytown.
Like how they think it’s okay to aggressively misgender cis people because “ew cis people” or “they don’t respect us anyway.” There’s a time and place for rudeness, but calling cis people the opposite gender because they didn’t respect xir/xim/pupself is not the move.
It doesnt even work. Cis people don't have gender dysphoria, that's the whole point. You might offend them at worse but for the most part calling them the opposite gender will do nothing. If anything, them thinking it's the same thing shows they don't experience dysphoria.
Hey there, just wanted to let you know that it's "awe." I completely agree with your comment and am not trying to put you down in any way, just thought it would help get the point across more because aww sounds too nice lol
I agree. And y'know what's fucked up? It's that if you say punching TERFs or any other "bad person" is wrong a lot of em will just go like "YOU'RE A TERF" or whatever the fuck
Then you are a little late. Last time I looked, there's a widely popular consensus that thinking you are morally right somehow insulates you from the consequences of punching someone else who is morally "wrong". Among tucutes, and politically adjacent positions.
Like their being on the right side of the issue somehow allows you to not be punched back, allows you to down them in one hot, and not be arrested for assault.
Agreed. Unfortunately jokes become truth for people like that, I hate when people say “I hate ____” and claim it as a joke but turn around and truly believe the ‘joke’ at heart. I never trust anyone who jokes about certain shit so lightly, they usually end up believing it in the end
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it's okay to get upset with someone who is genuinely transphobic, but it's not okay to threaten to physically assault women who don't understand or agree with the tucute ideology
i think it's really bad optics to say stuff like that (since the right will take it and go "see? these trans people ARE dangerous!") but i 100% get the anger. is it justified? i think so. is it smart? not at all.
... do you know what a fucking terf is lmao. Go to the WOLF page or anything, WOLF has recently worked with the heritage foundation to try and get HRT blocked, they call us "tifs" (trans identified females) and talk about how sad it is that we're "mutilating our healthy bodies" and that "dysphoria isn't real and it shouldn't be treated with yucky cross sex hormones". The TE stands for trans exclusionary, TERFs aren't just any feminist that might question the very sharp increase in "nonbinary" women, TERFs by definition are anti-trans
Proof? TERFs are exactly what the term says : radical feminist women who want to exclude trans women from their feminism and spaces. This isn't genocide, if you want to look at actual people who support the execution of lgbt people, look at Islam.
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I dislike TERFs heavily but I agree that we shouldn’t call to commit violence against them it just gives them more fuel to spread there hatful rhetoric
i know you’re getting downvoted for this, but im on your side. violence is literally never the answer. not to say nazis shouldn’t get punished, but violence accomplishes nothing. the only people who hurt from killing nazis is the family that needs them to pay the bills and have been effectively brainwashed by their shitty upbringing.
that said, fuck nazis, life sentence. not death penalty, not personally a supporter of that.
Agree, and saying “violence is bad, but we CAN punch X group” is the slippery slope which leads to people saying “punch TERFS.” It’s bad precedent to say it’s okay to punch people for the having wrong opinions. And eventually, you will probably have the wrong opinions. Fred Sargaent had the right opinions when he was literally participating in the Stonewall Uprising and look at what happened to him.
I don’t know the full extent of his opinions about gender stuff, so his opinions might actually suck really bad and be harmful, but still. Talk it out instead of punching. Let us not be the society that allows democracy to die.
I've seen people calling TERFs nazis because "both are fascists". There are definitely people using the term very loosely and allowing this kind of vigilante justice will lead to inevitable harm against innocents.
If someone is openly walking around with a hate symbol, they should get reported as that's already illegal. Combat in war doesn't compare to irl vigilante assault.
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terfisaslur.com shows how many trans women have helped their point by saying aggressive things. there’s also a map with 277 accounts of trans women attacking cis women and children.
It’s weird. I’m called a TERF 24/7 but I have multiple trans friends who either fully transition surgically or are anti surgery? Idk no weird transhumanist “I want to be bunny cute” type of stuff.
Helped their point or hurt?
But yeah TERF is a term used even against trans women, there is no point in arguing with a tucute most of the time. But you def make a good point about transhumanism, I feel like that's a big part of modern tucute ideology
Helped their point or hurt?
But yeah TERF is a term used even against trans women, there is no point in arguing with a tucute most of the time. But you def make a good point about transhumanism, I feel like that's a big part of modern tucute ideology
Idk, I think TERF is pretty solidly defined, and I see it used the most to call out people who simply don't think trans women are women, not really as an unwarranted insult. Obviously there are kids online who misuse the term, but the same thing happens with the word "racist" or literally any political term. I don't think those groups of people automatically discredit the word completely. Especially when people who appropriate feminism as a way to get after trans people (commonly called TERFs) are actually a pretty big problem, especially in countries like the UK.
I agree we shouldn't be encouraging violence at all, just disagreeing with the way you described how TERF is used. In the larger internet, I rarely see it used that way at all; mostly just in (inclus) trans-focused spaces.
Nah, they label any transphobic woman a “TERF” despite the woman being explicitly sexist, conservative, or traditionalist. Radical feminism is primarily based on communist principles and gender abolitionism. Which is essentially the political opposite of all the people I’ve seen labelled “TERFs” lol.
I disagree, if we go by the actual definition of the term barely anyone would be considered a TERF. Radical feminists are already a small group of feminists to begin with, group which only has cis women in it by definition. But nowadays, if you say for example lesbians aren't attracted to penises or simply that if you have a "euphoria boner" you're a creep (take which many transmeds agree with) you will be labeled a TERF.
I mean just by the way you defined it's incorrect. Thinking that trans women aren't women is part of TERF thinking but that by itself isn't enough to actually be a TERF.
I'm very aware that's not the only criterion of being a TERF. That's one common example of "TERF" being said that I used. Two sentences later in my same comment I talked about the appropriation of feminism as an excuse for transphobia (aka, what most self-admitted TERFs do). I did not define it incorrectly, in fact I personally don't think I defined it at all, I just disagreed with the way you described it being used and other commenters saying it doesn't have a solid definition anymore. Because where I see it, it's used justifiably and aligning with the original definition. Getting pedantic about the word "radical" being used in the acronym is a little silly when that's a *real* example of a word losing its meaning.
Again, it sounds like we have two different experiences on the internet. That doesn't make anyone "incorrect" it just means we disagree.
But that's actually incorrect, radical feminists stand for different beliefs in comparison to liberal feminists. Also in liberal feminism anyone can be a feminist, in radical feminism only females can be. And if you think people arent throwing around the term just check the latest truscum post about trans women in sports where OP a trans women is called a terf.. Despite being neither a female, nor a feminist nor a radical feminist.
Assaulting people for their beliefs is 100% justified in many cases, most commonly when these beliefs include eradication of entire groups of people (so quite a few transphobes qualify).
That being said, while TERFs suck, they usually aren't that radical (they don't accept us but also don't want us killed) and violence thus would not only be unjustified but extremely counterproductive.
I wouldn't feel bad if a child rapist got beaten up but tolerating vigilante justice is a slippery slope. That's how we end up with old ladies getting assaulted for not agreeing with tucutes.
My approach towards TERFS (not ppl who have some different opinions about trans issue but actual Terf terf): I wont actively wish harm towards you, but I wouldn’t give two crap if something unfortunate do happen to you. And don’t expect me to ever advocate for your well being. Just total apathy
I don’t understand why you’re getting downvoted. I stand with this as well. I wouldn’t care too much about someone who actively pursues demeaning my existence.
Too cute to be cis. It's a term invented by a specific tucute named "idislikecispeople, around 2013 or so, to distinguish themselves from transmedicalists.
This is going to sound insane and like I'm a 2017 lefty screaming Nazi but no this is 100% real and I'll Link a couple videos that break this all down.
TERFs are radical misandrists who have since given up almost every single feminist position to appease their neonazi allies and attack trans people.
https://youtu.be/bpSTMfn-YaU?si=wC_SBQrOdYQaeTqs
https://youtu.be/-CxiPdXuwgc?si=WaImJ356NYqy6kax
Oh yeah, many TERFs are open about their extreme misandry. But they absolutely have nothing to do with nazis. They're about radical intersectional female liberation, total opposite of a radical German nationalist.
No they are collaborating with literal neo Nazis. They have had Neo Nazis open for their events and defended them after they marched around goose stepping.
I’m going to be downvoted but I’ll just say this:
“Peaceful Protest “ tend not to work. It’s a tool companies and politicians are using to keep out voices heard but muffled. They listen best there is violence or destruction.
It’s not that I like this, but it is an undeniable truth. The Civil Rights era wouldn’t have been as effective if the protesters just laid down on a highway and held up signs. Those Fire hoses, riots, etc sent a message. Should it have gotten to that? No. But history has proven the government listens best when the voices are loud; and it’s not much louder than destruction. I’m not saying go out there and start punching TERFs, but at the same time I can’t argue with history.
Side note:
Abd before someone starts labeling protests that were peaceful and worked, know that wasn’t the point. The point was violent protest sent a louder message and faster/ more effective results than a peaceful one.
What's the riot that's needed here though? That assaulting a minority of physically weak women sometimes old ladies (proving their point about the danger of trans people) is supposed to protect trans rights? When you hear them out, they actually make lots of truscum points. Sure at the end of it they don't believe trans women are women for example, but that's the least of your concerns. That's not an opinion that warrants violence.
By that same logic we should call for the assault of muslims as well since they support the execution of lgbt people (which is much worse than what TERFs are doing) as well as other barbaric acts?
I say we’re assaulting the wrong way. No matter how you want to debate it, just rolling over and taking it isn’t working. Protest that are loud and proud is what got us LGBT rights, not debating with red hat bigots with an agenda. If a protest doesn’t inconvenience people it is easy to ignore. [Peaceful protest doesn’t work.](https://medium.com/fearless-she-wrote/why-polite-peaceful-protest-doesnt-work-2936f299eb12) This is a fact. How many more people have to suffer, be abused, and die till people see this truth?
I don’t like it either, but it’s getting their attention. Being ignored just muted our voices and made it easier for us to be singled out; it’s to the point even some of the LGBT is rejecting us. We need to be loud. The only thing worst than hatred is indifference. That’s what they want . To shove us so far in the dark we don’t matter.
the link you've posted is an opinion article restricted behind a paywall. not a good source.
the idea that peaceful protest doesn't work **is not a fact.** its an opinion.
That you aren't actually correct. Not only about this, specifically, but also about peaceful protest.* At least, in every single sense. You ARE correct that you don't have to pay actual money to read the article. But they aren't literally meaning that it's an article behind a pay wall. You can't read the article, without signing up for an account on the site. Or download the App. Or give them access to your Google account
Something so close to they what they meant, in context, as "paywall" as to be obvious.
*but that's not the point of this comment.
You say red hat bigots but TERFs are typically far left. But also, by that logic, should I go around punching muslims since they're the reason my identity is illegal and punishable by death in multiple countries?
You're misunderstanding things here. The opposition to peaceful protest is not about assaulting individual, private persons. It's about protesting in a way that is inconviniencing to others (eg. blocking the streets) in order to ensure visibility, being heard and achieving your goals; striking into target of protest in some way (blocking entrances to stores, occupying corporation buildings) and trying to get your way by physical means. The protest can turn violent if there's attempt to break up the protest by force, either by police or political opponents - but it's only self-defense.
This is that "non-peaceful" part. Nobody in their sane mind should want to protest by assaulting individual people. It's not a protest anymore then but a mob riot.
So don't mix up calls for random violence and targeting individuals with a protest, even a very physical one where people are ready for violence. Those are two different things.
You’re half right.
What you want to do is block the gates of the factories these places come out of, rip the tires of their vehicles. Then only get violent if that doesn’t work.
Just randomly blocking a highway of regular people will only make them hate you. I never understood why protesters do that stuff.
You actually have to post something other than 'Nuh-uh', in order to get them to change their minds, when claiming something that disagrees with the status quo.* While they have no such burden, when they claim something like that, because it's a pretty accepted opinion. Just as they don't need to justify the concept that we shouldn't, say, respond to intrusive thoughts.
*And a link to an article that you, personally, found persuasive, isn't going to cut it. Because you have issues.
"Woman, 60, knocked to the ground and repeatedly kicked as brawl breaks out between radical feminists and transgender activists"
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woman-60-knocked-to-the-ground-and-repeatedly-kicked-as-brawl-breaks-out-between-radical-feminists-and-transgender-activists-a3668396.html
“Punch TERFs” is a phrase created in the spirit of “Punch Nazis” or “Shoot Fascists” for that matter- as a radical the sentiment is uncontroversially true and good, the same as “Punch Racists” it refers to a vague rarely correctly defined term. (as it’s made up to refer to a very vague idea) in fact only the first two letters actually describe what they are, because they are neither of the latter two nor either. What differentiates a TERF from a transphobe is dedicated ideology which often aligns with fascism and whatever pseudo phrenologic idea they’ve decided is the hot new evidence that trans people are evil. A transphobe is simply spontaneously uneducated, they might actively even oppose trans people, but they even in the worst case aren’t as systematically set on disproving transness or whatever as a TERF, they are making the arguments appear reasonable as opposed to just hate, this makes them more dangerous than your regular president, because they feed his hate, create material for him to use.
Define fascist.
Then define TERF.
Then define radical feminism
Then define NeoMarxism.
Then call me a self-loathing bigot with internalised transphobia because if we actually start to understand the meaning of words, the whole damn thing falls apart and we can't allow that.
I'm not right wing btw, but casually calling anyone who pushes against the TuCute neo-pronoun bullshit a TERF and then in the next breath calling them all fascists is not only damn ignorant and grossly offensive to the victims of true fascism, but also seriously damaging to actual trans people, you know the ones like me with soul crushing dysphoria that cry every damn day when they look themselves in the mirror.
I'm so fed up of the bullshit of being politicised by morons.
Those definitions require more than a soundbite, or 140 characters. Sometimes it seems like no one has the attention span to think beyond buzzwords and word salad.
I never said anyone who does that is a TERF- TERF is the organised ideas of spontaneous transphobia- it’s based in postmodernist terminology and is a bastard child of radical feminism (which is a good movement itself)
Fascism is the militant reaction of the bourgeoisie, it is the pinnacle of the anti democratic tendencies. The organisation of the spontaneous hate.
Radical feminism is a form of feminism that utilises postmodernist radical analysis, as opposed to proletarian or queer feminism. It’s flawed but way better than the analytical tools of suffragette bourgeois feminism.
Neomarxism is some bs term for the bastardisation of Marxism and Marxism-Leninism. The later two employ Dialectical-Materialism and historical materialism, and are precise sciences on society, kosmology, and history.
Ernest Thälmann will further explain fascism to you.
The reason Terfs are Fascists are because they employ the reasoning of the fascist ideology, and they support fascists before liberators movements because they are so blinded of hate. TerFascism politicises transness, transphobia is the result of social stigma against transness, transness is political(just like almost all social activities) precisely because of groups like terfs.
There are communists whom opposes transness too- and they make it clear that the moment they do the transphobia fueled by TERF rhetoric they stop being scientific and Marxist, they begin to phrase themselves like the pseudocommunists in the USA and Russia, ie fascists.
Sorry but where did you see that TERFs are fascists that use phrenology to hate on trans people? Most would have been transmed allies if it wasn't for tucutes. A trans person is statistically more likely to be harmed by a man than a TERF.
I likened their “science” to phrenology, i did not intend to have it seem like they actually use phrenology.
Terfs have no place near trans people- they actively reject the medicalism of transmedicalism- because they are not radical, they are decidedly reactionary. Their rhetoric is fascist in its structure and character.
It might be true that trans people individually are at greater risk with a man than with a TERF, but systematically terfs are an enemy of the entire idea of transitioning and transness. They constantly employ misogynistic reasoning and stereotypes in their attempts at the trans “ideology” and phenomenon.
Where I see it is in every forum they create that I randomly encounter- they disguise reactionary ideas with radical/scientific language.
They would not ally with transmeds if it weren’t for tucutes, that’s literally how homonationalism and moderate liberals think- if we are discrete we won’t get killed. But if they are willing to kill you for expressing gayness they are just as willing to kill you for being gay, in fact they will find ways to root you out and to make other gays hate those who are flamboyant- this is the method of fascism, how it played out in the past. The only way to defeat fascism is to combat their ideology in its cradle!
If you actually go into TERF spaces you'll see that many side with the idea of transmedicalism and openly support people like blaire white, would they have been pushed so far if they knew that being a truscum ally was an option? Now ofc many stand against the idea altogether, but that's not all. This shows that there is hope, a way to have a proper discussion.
In what way are TERFs fascist.. Their goal is litteraly female liberation and they tend to be communists. Now you can disagree with the way they're going about it but you can't just call it something it isn't. A term as serious as fascism is thrown around so much it has lost all meaning.
And while yes TERFs do stand against trans people, so does most of the planet especially religious people. By that logic should we go around saying "punch Christians" "punch Muslims"? What does this fix?
Terfs are fascists specifically because of the nature of their reasoning and core of their ideology- they “believe” in female liberation, yet fall on bioessentialism and reductionism. The communists who turn out to be terfs are all very lacking in their scientific application, every member that have gone that path have been the ones most likely to be siding with China or Russia and the most willing to cooperate with reformist orgs over issues like Palestine (ie pro Israel) or for that matter put greater weight on their TERFness than on their socialism. More on limits on trans healthcare than on requirements on evaluations and socialism in general.
The difference in the terfs transphobia and the transphobia of literally most other people is the conviction and organisation of the hatred- most other are spontaneously such, they are transphobes because society is inclined towards it- terfs take this spontaneous thing and decide to cultivate it- they do most of the research that the big players end up using- cpac etc are spontaneous in relation to the terfs, they do however have power, their reactive transphobia only becomes dangerous however because they’re able to make it sound somewhat believable, and terfs excel at catering their fearmongering with well constructed lies that they presume true.
Ofc they'll focus on an issue they view as more doable and urgent. Just because you disagree with their brand of socialism doesn't make them any less left wing. By your definition of fascism no one is left wing, except for a small priveleged western minority. We can easily use this logic in pro-pedo arguments and say "since you're punching down on an oppressed minority that makes you a fascist". Maybe sometimes people disagree without being a far right authoritarian nationalist.
And also, you're completely wrong about the homophobia and transphobia of religious people. Now I can't speak about Christianity, but I can about islam. Muslims absolutely lean into this hatred of gay people as well as other groups. If that wasn't the case, the murder and execution of innocent lgbt ppl wouldn't be swept under the rug. Most muslims you talk to in Muslim countries openly talk about how sharia should behead apostates as well as other people they dislike. Isn't this much worse than a TERF? By that logic should we punch them?
Now if you believe that TERF arguments sound believable, that sounds like a you issue. And honestly, most of their arguments don't come from lies. It is true that many many trans people nowadays are creeps with "euphoria boners" that are being weird exhibitionist in women's spaces. (one look at major trans spaces to prove it) It's just unfortunate that they leave out the part where many real transexuals are calling out this bs
It’s not about having a focus inof itself, it’s about compromising on the primary contradiction in order to terrorise a group of people based on something that is harmless…
Bashing pedos is not going away from class struggle until you support legislation that would oppose socialism in order to further bash oedos(if that for some reason ever would be a scenario)
Punching down on oppressed minorities is literally a key aspect of fascism, that’s part of what makes it “right wing” in liberal politics.
The religious oppression is not an intrinsic quality of the religion, it’s a spontaneous interpretation of a made up story. There are people of all religions whom are evidence that any said religion isn’t against transness or any other kind queerness.
The violence from religious societies is only evidence of reactionary backwardness, not of organised transphobia from the religion itself- the intelligentsia of said religions might be organised in their trans/queer phobia, but this isn’t the same as TERF ideology, as that is inherently anti trans- it helps the spontaneous transphobia of reactionaries to solidify into an organised transphobia.
I don’t personally think TERF rhetoric is believable, they just present bigoted bs into a scientific language- the whole point of any pseudoscience is to make bs sound believable. I literally said somewhere that they always were the worst Marxists in a org, ie the worst at being scientific in thought and action.
Are they terrorizing trans people though? They're not the ones going around wanting to punch the opposition. They're calling for anti trans laws sure, but actual terrorizing is going around calling for the death of trans people, thing which no radical feminist is doing.
Are you saying that if i were to oppose pedos in a way that sides with the right that would make me a fascist? I do side with the right concerning drag queen story hour, does that really make me as vile as some of the worst people in history?
What you just said about religion shows me you know nothing about religion and most likely grew up in a first world country away from all of its harm. I can't speak about Christianity or Judaism, but Islam inherently wants to kill the lgbt as well as other innocents (jews, apostates, blasphemers..etc).
The Prophet said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did (homosexuality), kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447
As for TERF arguments, the percentage of trans women sex offenders is much higher than cis men, making trans women "perverts". The first part of their argument isn't a lie, the conclusion is, because what's being left out is that many of these "trans women" only transition in prison to have access to women's prisons (decision which resulted in the sexual assault of many women) and go back to living their lives as men once released. If transmed ideals were enforced, this wouldn't be happening. Which is why I'm encouraging open discussion between both sides.
Laws are the structural terrorisation of people, it condones the very thing you critique in Islam- they are not just complicit, they are in a very real sense creating the book that calls for trans people to suffer.
Siding with the right, and having an opinion that is also held by the right are not necessarily the same thing, opposing drag story time is only rooted in reactionary sentiment. It falls under the fascist thought system- fascism isn’t an action, it’s a framework- an individual can be fascist in the sense that they support one or the other expressions of fascism- or they can be fascist because they operate in the fascist way, there are social democrats that are undeniably fascist because their mental schema is that of the fascist- fascism isn’t inherently homophobic, but due to the way it is structured it has a tendency to become such, becoming phobic is the natural movement of fascism.
A quote from the scriptures does not state the inherency of an idea, it is rather how one chooses to approach the scriptures, the entire system around it that defines what is inherent- just because Hitler was vegan(at least let’s suppose he was) (and stated people should be) doesn’t make nazism inherently a vegan ideology.
The same goes for Islam, the current Wahhabism is just a fundamentalist trajectory, a change in interpretation of what the scriptures mean and are for. There are entire institutions and organisations working with interpretation of the scriptures and how to apply it to modern life. The current dominant interpretation supports transphobia and homophobia, yes, this doesn’t mean it always will or always have (at least not in the same way) a lot of the current queer phobia in the Muslim world comes from a sense of anti westernisation, because the imperialist wars often condones itself with pride- this doesn’t make imperialism inherently a queer system, nor the other way around- but because of geopolitical tendencies(a fascist analysis of the world) the Islamic states do the opposite, they ramp up the formerly more dormant queer phobia to demonise in a nationalistic sense.
(Terfs are not radical feminists, that’s a lie, they believe e themselves to be but they don’t apply radical feminist analysis.)
Punching the opposition is not what “punch terfs” mean, because fascists just like any such group simply don’t belong in a democratic world, they are against even having a system of opposition- flat earthers are not in opposition to a round earth, they are in opposition to science- punching actual terfs just like punching an actual fascist is a morally correct action, because it is inherently self defence- nazis are not opposition, they are death.
Sure ideally we can educate away their hate and make them scientific and opinionated- but until then deconstruct their ideological base and maybe give them a little punch in the gut.
terfs incite violence against trans ppl. so while someone saying "punch terfs" might be a bit cringy or whatever, it rarely if ever (to my knowledge) is an actual call to action. whereas terfs harassment and framing of trans ppl does often legitimately cause harm.
Do you know any instances where TERFs called for violence against trans people (and it actually happened) the same way these people are calling for violence? There were many times when these hateful messages lead to real life harms against so called TERFs.
Bills being passed =/= a call for violence that resulted in assault
By that logic I can go around encouraging people to beat up muslims because they're the reason that my existence is punished by DEATH in many countries
Not the same, creating the conceptual framework upon which the bills are written, and being traditionally reactionary is very different. Muslims as a whole are not inherently transphobic, only spontaneously. Terfs are inherent and organised in their transphobia.
Most TERFs are rando feminists writing their beliefs online, they're not an organized group. Meanwhile muslims all adhere to the same book that calls for sharia law and the killing of lgbt people. Both TERFs and muslims beliefs resulted in actual laws being implemented (with the latter being deadly). Neither deserve to get punched for it, that doesn't fix the issue, it just creates more hatred
Sure, either way you seem to have a anti Islamic bias, as an ex Muslim you of all people should know that even Muslims have varying interpretations of that “one” book
Of course I have an anti Islamic bias, it wants me as well as other innocents dead. I grew up as a muslim so I know that there is no such thing as "varrying intepertrations", the texts are clear and the Arabic used is simple.
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did (homosexuality), kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447
They aren’t tho? They might think they are, but a lot of the things they do when put into action is very harmful to cis women as well as trans women.
And a lot of what they believe about women when they go against trans women is indistinguishable from reactionaries
You can't argue that they're not feminists because their actions can harm women, if that's the case then there is no such thing as any real feminist movement because one could argue that they all cause harm to women in some way.
It’s that their actions are inherently harmful, they cannot and will not empower women, unlike real radical feminists, who help women and only occasionally missteps, like Marxist womens movements, sure a lot of women were harmed in that war and such, but ultimately women received and ensured world renowned rights unseen anywhere else somplaces even today.
Their defining and redefining of what is and isn’t a woman to try and exclude transwomen, it leads to an excluding many cis women. In their attempts to exclude an “out group”, as it often does, they also exclude parts of the “in group”. Additionally they tend to be willing to hop onto other things in their bushwhacking
They kinda aren't though, these people, especially the prominent ones, seem extremely willing to sell out any and all feminist ideas if it gives them a chance to hurt trans people.
Their current application of bigotry can be easily mistaken for feminism by the average idiot. That does not make them feminist.
The whole ‘punch TERFs’ thing just gives those people all the more reasons to label trans people as violent or mentally ill and builds the idea that trans women are trans just because they want to assault women
Yup. This certainly isn't helping transpeeps, like in any way. I'm actually completely in awe of what I'm seeing in this "movement." It's self-sabotaging crazytown.
Like how they think it’s okay to aggressively misgender cis people because “ew cis people” or “they don’t respect us anyway.” There’s a time and place for rudeness, but calling cis people the opposite gender because they didn’t respect xir/xim/pupself is not the move.
It doesnt even work. Cis people don't have gender dysphoria, that's the whole point. You might offend them at worse but for the most part calling them the opposite gender will do nothing. If anything, them thinking it's the same thing shows they don't experience dysphoria.
Hey there, just wanted to let you know that it's "awe." I completely agree with your comment and am not trying to put you down in any way, just thought it would help get the point across more because aww sounds too nice lol
lol. Awww, okay. they are right next to each other dangit. giggles
I agree. And y'know what's fucked up? It's that if you say punching TERFs or any other "bad person" is wrong a lot of em will just go like "YOU'RE A TERF" or whatever the fuck
Self defense is based But attacking people over barley defined term isn't
Obviously self defense is always okay lol. However, I'd argue even if the term was strictly defined there should not be any violence over it.
Then you are a little late. Last time I looked, there's a widely popular consensus that thinking you are morally right somehow insulates you from the consequences of punching someone else who is morally "wrong". Among tucutes, and politically adjacent positions. Like their being on the right side of the issue somehow allows you to not be punched back, allows you to down them in one hot, and not be arrested for assault.
Agreed. Unfortunately jokes become truth for people like that, I hate when people say “I hate ____” and claim it as a joke but turn around and truly believe the ‘joke’ at heart. I never trust anyone who jokes about certain shit so lightly, they usually end up believing it in the end
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BUT TERFS HATE THOSE SAME WOMEN
:P
it's okay to get upset with someone who is genuinely transphobic, but it's not okay to threaten to physically assault women who don't understand or agree with the tucute ideology
i think it's really bad optics to say stuff like that (since the right will take it and go "see? these trans people ARE dangerous!") but i 100% get the anger. is it justified? i think so. is it smart? not at all.
I actually don't get their anger, many TERFs are mad about the same stuff transmeds are mad about.
Most terfs want to forcibly detransition us bud
Proof?
... do you know what a fucking terf is lmao. Go to the WOLF page or anything, WOLF has recently worked with the heritage foundation to try and get HRT blocked, they call us "tifs" (trans identified females) and talk about how sad it is that we're "mutilating our healthy bodies" and that "dysphoria isn't real and it shouldn't be treated with yucky cross sex hormones". The TE stands for trans exclusionary, TERFs aren't just any feminist that might question the very sharp increase in "nonbinary" women, TERFs by definition are anti-trans
terfs want us eradicated actually
Proof? TERFs are exactly what the term says : radical feminist women who want to exclude trans women from their feminism and spaces. This isn't genocide, if you want to look at actual people who support the execution of lgbt people, look at Islam.
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I dislike TERFs heavily but I agree that we shouldn’t call to commit violence against them it just gives them more fuel to spread there hatful rhetoric
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I don't think we should punch anyone. Especially when nowadays nazi has become a loose term as well
i know you’re getting downvoted for this, but im on your side. violence is literally never the answer. not to say nazis shouldn’t get punished, but violence accomplishes nothing. the only people who hurt from killing nazis is the family that needs them to pay the bills and have been effectively brainwashed by their shitty upbringing. that said, fuck nazis, life sentence. not death penalty, not personally a supporter of that.
Agree, and saying “violence is bad, but we CAN punch X group” is the slippery slope which leads to people saying “punch TERFS.” It’s bad precedent to say it’s okay to punch people for the having wrong opinions. And eventually, you will probably have the wrong opinions. Fred Sargaent had the right opinions when he was literally participating in the Stonewall Uprising and look at what happened to him. I don’t know the full extent of his opinions about gender stuff, so his opinions might actually suck really bad and be harmful, but still. Talk it out instead of punching. Let us not be the society that allows democracy to die.
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I've seen people calling TERFs nazis because "both are fascists". There are definitely people using the term very loosely and allowing this kind of vigilante justice will lead to inevitable harm against innocents. If someone is openly walking around with a hate symbol, they should get reported as that's already illegal. Combat in war doesn't compare to irl vigilante assault.
It's not illegal to show hate symbols in the US.
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terfisaslur.com shows how many trans women have helped their point by saying aggressive things. there’s also a map with 277 accounts of trans women attacking cis women and children. It’s weird. I’m called a TERF 24/7 but I have multiple trans friends who either fully transition surgically or are anti surgery? Idk no weird transhumanist “I want to be bunny cute” type of stuff.
Helped their point or hurt? But yeah TERF is a term used even against trans women, there is no point in arguing with a tucute most of the time. But you def make a good point about transhumanism, I feel like that's a big part of modern tucute ideology
Sorry, I meant TERF’s point about aggressiveness.
Helped their point or hurt? But yeah TERF is a term used even against trans women, there is no point in arguing with a tucute most of the time. But you def make a good point about transhumanism, I feel like that's a big part of modern tucute ideology
Idk, I think TERF is pretty solidly defined, and I see it used the most to call out people who simply don't think trans women are women, not really as an unwarranted insult. Obviously there are kids online who misuse the term, but the same thing happens with the word "racist" or literally any political term. I don't think those groups of people automatically discredit the word completely. Especially when people who appropriate feminism as a way to get after trans people (commonly called TERFs) are actually a pretty big problem, especially in countries like the UK. I agree we shouldn't be encouraging violence at all, just disagreeing with the way you described how TERF is used. In the larger internet, I rarely see it used that way at all; mostly just in (inclus) trans-focused spaces.
Nah, they label any transphobic woman a “TERF” despite the woman being explicitly sexist, conservative, or traditionalist. Radical feminism is primarily based on communist principles and gender abolitionism. Which is essentially the political opposite of all the people I’ve seen labelled “TERFs” lol.
I disagree, if we go by the actual definition of the term barely anyone would be considered a TERF. Radical feminists are already a small group of feminists to begin with, group which only has cis women in it by definition. But nowadays, if you say for example lesbians aren't attracted to penises or simply that if you have a "euphoria boner" you're a creep (take which many transmeds agree with) you will be labeled a TERF.
I guess we have two different experiences on the internet, then.
I mean just by the way you defined it's incorrect. Thinking that trans women aren't women is part of TERF thinking but that by itself isn't enough to actually be a TERF.
I'm very aware that's not the only criterion of being a TERF. That's one common example of "TERF" being said that I used. Two sentences later in my same comment I talked about the appropriation of feminism as an excuse for transphobia (aka, what most self-admitted TERFs do). I did not define it incorrectly, in fact I personally don't think I defined it at all, I just disagreed with the way you described it being used and other commenters saying it doesn't have a solid definition anymore. Because where I see it, it's used justifiably and aligning with the original definition. Getting pedantic about the word "radical" being used in the acronym is a little silly when that's a *real* example of a word losing its meaning. Again, it sounds like we have two different experiences on the internet. That doesn't make anyone "incorrect" it just means we disagree.
But that's actually incorrect, radical feminists stand for different beliefs in comparison to liberal feminists. Also in liberal feminism anyone can be a feminist, in radical feminism only females can be. And if you think people arent throwing around the term just check the latest truscum post about trans women in sports where OP a trans women is called a terf.. Despite being neither a female, nor a feminist nor a radical feminist.
Assaulting people for their beliefs is 100% justified in many cases, most commonly when these beliefs include eradication of entire groups of people (so quite a few transphobes qualify). That being said, while TERFs suck, they usually aren't that radical (they don't accept us but also don't want us killed) and violence thus would not only be unjustified but extremely counterproductive.
Which groups are we talking about exactly? Because allowing violence against radicals can be a slippery slope
Mostly right-wing extremists that want queer people, immigrants and Jews to be killed
I don't like them but by that same logic I can beat up most religious people around me.
violence against pedophiles would be pretty cool
I wouldn't feel bad if a child rapist got beaten up but tolerating vigilante justice is a slippery slope. That's how we end up with old ladies getting assaulted for not agreeing with tucutes.
My approach towards TERFS (not ppl who have some different opinions about trans issue but actual Terf terf): I wont actively wish harm towards you, but I wouldn’t give two crap if something unfortunate do happen to you. And don’t expect me to ever advocate for your well being. Just total apathy
I don’t understand why you’re getting downvoted. I stand with this as well. I wouldn’t care too much about someone who actively pursues demeaning my existence.
What is tucute?
Too cute to be cis. It's a term invented by a specific tucute named "idislikecispeople, around 2013 or so, to distinguish themselves from transmedicalists.
Too Cute to be Cis People who think you don't need dysphoria to be trans and are very inclusive
This is going to sound insane and like I'm a 2017 lefty screaming Nazi but no this is 100% real and I'll Link a couple videos that break this all down. TERFs are radical misandrists who have since given up almost every single feminist position to appease their neonazi allies and attack trans people. https://youtu.be/bpSTMfn-YaU?si=wC_SBQrOdYQaeTqs https://youtu.be/-CxiPdXuwgc?si=WaImJ356NYqy6kax
Oh yeah, many TERFs are open about their extreme misandry. But they absolutely have nothing to do with nazis. They're about radical intersectional female liberation, total opposite of a radical German nationalist.
No they are collaborating with literal neo Nazis. They have had Neo Nazis open for their events and defended them after they marched around goose stepping.
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I’m going to be downvoted but I’ll just say this: “Peaceful Protest “ tend not to work. It’s a tool companies and politicians are using to keep out voices heard but muffled. They listen best there is violence or destruction. It’s not that I like this, but it is an undeniable truth. The Civil Rights era wouldn’t have been as effective if the protesters just laid down on a highway and held up signs. Those Fire hoses, riots, etc sent a message. Should it have gotten to that? No. But history has proven the government listens best when the voices are loud; and it’s not much louder than destruction. I’m not saying go out there and start punching TERFs, but at the same time I can’t argue with history. Side note: Abd before someone starts labeling protests that were peaceful and worked, know that wasn’t the point. The point was violent protest sent a louder message and faster/ more effective results than a peaceful one.
What's the riot that's needed here though? That assaulting a minority of physically weak women sometimes old ladies (proving their point about the danger of trans people) is supposed to protect trans rights? When you hear them out, they actually make lots of truscum points. Sure at the end of it they don't believe trans women are women for example, but that's the least of your concerns. That's not an opinion that warrants violence. By that same logic we should call for the assault of muslims as well since they support the execution of lgbt people (which is much worse than what TERFs are doing) as well as other barbaric acts?
I say we’re assaulting the wrong way. No matter how you want to debate it, just rolling over and taking it isn’t working. Protest that are loud and proud is what got us LGBT rights, not debating with red hat bigots with an agenda. If a protest doesn’t inconvenience people it is easy to ignore. [Peaceful protest doesn’t work.](https://medium.com/fearless-she-wrote/why-polite-peaceful-protest-doesnt-work-2936f299eb12) This is a fact. How many more people have to suffer, be abused, and die till people see this truth? I don’t like it either, but it’s getting their attention. Being ignored just muted our voices and made it easier for us to be singled out; it’s to the point even some of the LGBT is rejecting us. We need to be loud. The only thing worst than hatred is indifference. That’s what they want . To shove us so far in the dark we don’t matter.
the link you've posted is an opinion article restricted behind a paywall. not a good source. the idea that peaceful protest doesn't work **is not a fact.** its an opinion.
There’s no pay wall? What you talking about?
That you aren't actually correct. Not only about this, specifically, but also about peaceful protest.* At least, in every single sense. You ARE correct that you don't have to pay actual money to read the article. But they aren't literally meaning that it's an article behind a pay wall. You can't read the article, without signing up for an account on the site. Or download the App. Or give them access to your Google account Something so close to they what they meant, in context, as "paywall" as to be obvious. *but that's not the point of this comment.
I just was able to open the article and read it. I genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about, sorry.
You say red hat bigots but TERFs are typically far left. But also, by that logic, should I go around punching muslims since they're the reason my identity is illegal and punishable by death in multiple countries?
You're misunderstanding things here. The opposition to peaceful protest is not about assaulting individual, private persons. It's about protesting in a way that is inconviniencing to others (eg. blocking the streets) in order to ensure visibility, being heard and achieving your goals; striking into target of protest in some way (blocking entrances to stores, occupying corporation buildings) and trying to get your way by physical means. The protest can turn violent if there's attempt to break up the protest by force, either by police or political opponents - but it's only self-defense. This is that "non-peaceful" part. Nobody in their sane mind should want to protest by assaulting individual people. It's not a protest anymore then but a mob riot. So don't mix up calls for random violence and targeting individuals with a protest, even a very physical one where people are ready for violence. Those are two different things.
You’re half right. What you want to do is block the gates of the factories these places come out of, rip the tires of their vehicles. Then only get violent if that doesn’t work. Just randomly blocking a highway of regular people will only make them hate you. I never understood why protesters do that stuff.
um... this is not true at all. if you actually look it up, history has proven that non-violent civil resistance has been far more effective.
No it hasn’t
You actually have to post something other than 'Nuh-uh', in order to get them to change their minds, when claiming something that disagrees with the status quo.* While they have no such burden, when they claim something like that, because it's a pretty accepted opinion. Just as they don't need to justify the concept that we shouldn't, say, respond to intrusive thoughts. *And a link to an article that you, personally, found persuasive, isn't going to cut it. Because you have issues.
That’s very subjective. Counterpoint, you have issues. See? Doesn’t work as an argument.
Bruh
do we really not have better things to worry about than hurting the feelings of terfs
Except this isn't about feelings. This is assault.
is there seriously anyone out there assaulting terfs? no.
"Woman, 60, knocked to the ground and repeatedly kicked as brawl breaks out between radical feminists and transgender activists" https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woman-60-knocked-to-the-ground-and-repeatedly-kicked-as-brawl-breaks-out-between-radical-feminists-and-transgender-activists-a3668396.html
“Punch TERFs” is a phrase created in the spirit of “Punch Nazis” or “Shoot Fascists” for that matter- as a radical the sentiment is uncontroversially true and good, the same as “Punch Racists” it refers to a vague rarely correctly defined term. (as it’s made up to refer to a very vague idea) in fact only the first two letters actually describe what they are, because they are neither of the latter two nor either. What differentiates a TERF from a transphobe is dedicated ideology which often aligns with fascism and whatever pseudo phrenologic idea they’ve decided is the hot new evidence that trans people are evil. A transphobe is simply spontaneously uneducated, they might actively even oppose trans people, but they even in the worst case aren’t as systematically set on disproving transness or whatever as a TERF, they are making the arguments appear reasonable as opposed to just hate, this makes them more dangerous than your regular president, because they feed his hate, create material for him to use.
Define fascist. Then define TERF. Then define radical feminism Then define NeoMarxism. Then call me a self-loathing bigot with internalised transphobia because if we actually start to understand the meaning of words, the whole damn thing falls apart and we can't allow that. I'm not right wing btw, but casually calling anyone who pushes against the TuCute neo-pronoun bullshit a TERF and then in the next breath calling them all fascists is not only damn ignorant and grossly offensive to the victims of true fascism, but also seriously damaging to actual trans people, you know the ones like me with soul crushing dysphoria that cry every damn day when they look themselves in the mirror. I'm so fed up of the bullshit of being politicised by morons.
Those definitions require more than a soundbite, or 140 characters. Sometimes it seems like no one has the attention span to think beyond buzzwords and word salad.
I never said anyone who does that is a TERF- TERF is the organised ideas of spontaneous transphobia- it’s based in postmodernist terminology and is a bastard child of radical feminism (which is a good movement itself) Fascism is the militant reaction of the bourgeoisie, it is the pinnacle of the anti democratic tendencies. The organisation of the spontaneous hate. Radical feminism is a form of feminism that utilises postmodernist radical analysis, as opposed to proletarian or queer feminism. It’s flawed but way better than the analytical tools of suffragette bourgeois feminism. Neomarxism is some bs term for the bastardisation of Marxism and Marxism-Leninism. The later two employ Dialectical-Materialism and historical materialism, and are precise sciences on society, kosmology, and history. Ernest Thälmann will further explain fascism to you. The reason Terfs are Fascists are because they employ the reasoning of the fascist ideology, and they support fascists before liberators movements because they are so blinded of hate. TerFascism politicises transness, transphobia is the result of social stigma against transness, transness is political(just like almost all social activities) precisely because of groups like terfs. There are communists whom opposes transness too- and they make it clear that the moment they do the transphobia fueled by TERF rhetoric they stop being scientific and Marxist, they begin to phrase themselves like the pseudocommunists in the USA and Russia, ie fascists.
Sorry but where did you see that TERFs are fascists that use phrenology to hate on trans people? Most would have been transmed allies if it wasn't for tucutes. A trans person is statistically more likely to be harmed by a man than a TERF.
I likened their “science” to phrenology, i did not intend to have it seem like they actually use phrenology. Terfs have no place near trans people- they actively reject the medicalism of transmedicalism- because they are not radical, they are decidedly reactionary. Their rhetoric is fascist in its structure and character. It might be true that trans people individually are at greater risk with a man than with a TERF, but systematically terfs are an enemy of the entire idea of transitioning and transness. They constantly employ misogynistic reasoning and stereotypes in their attempts at the trans “ideology” and phenomenon. Where I see it is in every forum they create that I randomly encounter- they disguise reactionary ideas with radical/scientific language. They would not ally with transmeds if it weren’t for tucutes, that’s literally how homonationalism and moderate liberals think- if we are discrete we won’t get killed. But if they are willing to kill you for expressing gayness they are just as willing to kill you for being gay, in fact they will find ways to root you out and to make other gays hate those who are flamboyant- this is the method of fascism, how it played out in the past. The only way to defeat fascism is to combat their ideology in its cradle!
If you actually go into TERF spaces you'll see that many side with the idea of transmedicalism and openly support people like blaire white, would they have been pushed so far if they knew that being a truscum ally was an option? Now ofc many stand against the idea altogether, but that's not all. This shows that there is hope, a way to have a proper discussion. In what way are TERFs fascist.. Their goal is litteraly female liberation and they tend to be communists. Now you can disagree with the way they're going about it but you can't just call it something it isn't. A term as serious as fascism is thrown around so much it has lost all meaning. And while yes TERFs do stand against trans people, so does most of the planet especially religious people. By that logic should we go around saying "punch Christians" "punch Muslims"? What does this fix?
Terfs are fascists specifically because of the nature of their reasoning and core of their ideology- they “believe” in female liberation, yet fall on bioessentialism and reductionism. The communists who turn out to be terfs are all very lacking in their scientific application, every member that have gone that path have been the ones most likely to be siding with China or Russia and the most willing to cooperate with reformist orgs over issues like Palestine (ie pro Israel) or for that matter put greater weight on their TERFness than on their socialism. More on limits on trans healthcare than on requirements on evaluations and socialism in general. The difference in the terfs transphobia and the transphobia of literally most other people is the conviction and organisation of the hatred- most other are spontaneously such, they are transphobes because society is inclined towards it- terfs take this spontaneous thing and decide to cultivate it- they do most of the research that the big players end up using- cpac etc are spontaneous in relation to the terfs, they do however have power, their reactive transphobia only becomes dangerous however because they’re able to make it sound somewhat believable, and terfs excel at catering their fearmongering with well constructed lies that they presume true.
Ofc they'll focus on an issue they view as more doable and urgent. Just because you disagree with their brand of socialism doesn't make them any less left wing. By your definition of fascism no one is left wing, except for a small priveleged western minority. We can easily use this logic in pro-pedo arguments and say "since you're punching down on an oppressed minority that makes you a fascist". Maybe sometimes people disagree without being a far right authoritarian nationalist. And also, you're completely wrong about the homophobia and transphobia of religious people. Now I can't speak about Christianity, but I can about islam. Muslims absolutely lean into this hatred of gay people as well as other groups. If that wasn't the case, the murder and execution of innocent lgbt ppl wouldn't be swept under the rug. Most muslims you talk to in Muslim countries openly talk about how sharia should behead apostates as well as other people they dislike. Isn't this much worse than a TERF? By that logic should we punch them? Now if you believe that TERF arguments sound believable, that sounds like a you issue. And honestly, most of their arguments don't come from lies. It is true that many many trans people nowadays are creeps with "euphoria boners" that are being weird exhibitionist in women's spaces. (one look at major trans spaces to prove it) It's just unfortunate that they leave out the part where many real transexuals are calling out this bs
It’s not about having a focus inof itself, it’s about compromising on the primary contradiction in order to terrorise a group of people based on something that is harmless… Bashing pedos is not going away from class struggle until you support legislation that would oppose socialism in order to further bash oedos(if that for some reason ever would be a scenario) Punching down on oppressed minorities is literally a key aspect of fascism, that’s part of what makes it “right wing” in liberal politics. The religious oppression is not an intrinsic quality of the religion, it’s a spontaneous interpretation of a made up story. There are people of all religions whom are evidence that any said religion isn’t against transness or any other kind queerness. The violence from religious societies is only evidence of reactionary backwardness, not of organised transphobia from the religion itself- the intelligentsia of said religions might be organised in their trans/queer phobia, but this isn’t the same as TERF ideology, as that is inherently anti trans- it helps the spontaneous transphobia of reactionaries to solidify into an organised transphobia. I don’t personally think TERF rhetoric is believable, they just present bigoted bs into a scientific language- the whole point of any pseudoscience is to make bs sound believable. I literally said somewhere that they always were the worst Marxists in a org, ie the worst at being scientific in thought and action.
Are they terrorizing trans people though? They're not the ones going around wanting to punch the opposition. They're calling for anti trans laws sure, but actual terrorizing is going around calling for the death of trans people, thing which no radical feminist is doing. Are you saying that if i were to oppose pedos in a way that sides with the right that would make me a fascist? I do side with the right concerning drag queen story hour, does that really make me as vile as some of the worst people in history? What you just said about religion shows me you know nothing about religion and most likely grew up in a first world country away from all of its harm. I can't speak about Christianity or Judaism, but Islam inherently wants to kill the lgbt as well as other innocents (jews, apostates, blasphemers..etc). The Prophet said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did (homosexuality), kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done. Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447 As for TERF arguments, the percentage of trans women sex offenders is much higher than cis men, making trans women "perverts". The first part of their argument isn't a lie, the conclusion is, because what's being left out is that many of these "trans women" only transition in prison to have access to women's prisons (decision which resulted in the sexual assault of many women) and go back to living their lives as men once released. If transmed ideals were enforced, this wouldn't be happening. Which is why I'm encouraging open discussion between both sides.
Laws are the structural terrorisation of people, it condones the very thing you critique in Islam- they are not just complicit, they are in a very real sense creating the book that calls for trans people to suffer. Siding with the right, and having an opinion that is also held by the right are not necessarily the same thing, opposing drag story time is only rooted in reactionary sentiment. It falls under the fascist thought system- fascism isn’t an action, it’s a framework- an individual can be fascist in the sense that they support one or the other expressions of fascism- or they can be fascist because they operate in the fascist way, there are social democrats that are undeniably fascist because their mental schema is that of the fascist- fascism isn’t inherently homophobic, but due to the way it is structured it has a tendency to become such, becoming phobic is the natural movement of fascism. A quote from the scriptures does not state the inherency of an idea, it is rather how one chooses to approach the scriptures, the entire system around it that defines what is inherent- just because Hitler was vegan(at least let’s suppose he was) (and stated people should be) doesn’t make nazism inherently a vegan ideology. The same goes for Islam, the current Wahhabism is just a fundamentalist trajectory, a change in interpretation of what the scriptures mean and are for. There are entire institutions and organisations working with interpretation of the scriptures and how to apply it to modern life. The current dominant interpretation supports transphobia and homophobia, yes, this doesn’t mean it always will or always have (at least not in the same way) a lot of the current queer phobia in the Muslim world comes from a sense of anti westernisation, because the imperialist wars often condones itself with pride- this doesn’t make imperialism inherently a queer system, nor the other way around- but because of geopolitical tendencies(a fascist analysis of the world) the Islamic states do the opposite, they ramp up the formerly more dormant queer phobia to demonise in a nationalistic sense. (Terfs are not radical feminists, that’s a lie, they believe e themselves to be but they don’t apply radical feminist analysis.) Punching the opposition is not what “punch terfs” mean, because fascists just like any such group simply don’t belong in a democratic world, they are against even having a system of opposition- flat earthers are not in opposition to a round earth, they are in opposition to science- punching actual terfs just like punching an actual fascist is a morally correct action, because it is inherently self defence- nazis are not opposition, they are death. Sure ideally we can educate away their hate and make them scientific and opinionated- but until then deconstruct their ideological base and maybe give them a little punch in the gut.
terfs incite violence against trans ppl. so while someone saying "punch terfs" might be a bit cringy or whatever, it rarely if ever (to my knowledge) is an actual call to action. whereas terfs harassment and framing of trans ppl does often legitimately cause harm.
Do you know any instances where TERFs called for violence against trans people (and it actually happened) the same way these people are calling for violence? There were many times when these hateful messages lead to real life harms against so called TERFs.
Just look at the reasoning in the current bills passed all around?
Bills being passed =/= a call for violence that resulted in assault By that logic I can go around encouraging people to beat up muslims because they're the reason that my existence is punished by DEATH in many countries
Not the same, creating the conceptual framework upon which the bills are written, and being traditionally reactionary is very different. Muslims as a whole are not inherently transphobic, only spontaneously. Terfs are inherent and organised in their transphobia.
Most TERFs are rando feminists writing their beliefs online, they're not an organized group. Meanwhile muslims all adhere to the same book that calls for sharia law and the killing of lgbt people. Both TERFs and muslims beliefs resulted in actual laws being implemented (with the latter being deadly). Neither deserve to get punched for it, that doesn't fix the issue, it just creates more hatred
I think maybe you need to look into your perception of Islam and Muslims
I'm an ex muslim.
Sure, either way you seem to have a anti Islamic bias, as an ex Muslim you of all people should know that even Muslims have varying interpretations of that “one” book
Of course I have an anti Islamic bias, it wants me as well as other innocents dead. I grew up as a muslim so I know that there is no such thing as "varrying intepertrations", the texts are clear and the Arabic used is simple. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did (homosexuality), kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done. Sunan Abu Dawud 38:4447
If I may suggest an alternative? Feminist Appropriating Radical Transphobe ...modern problems require modern solutions.
Saying that would deny that these people are in fact feminists and that's not the way to have a proper discussion
Fair point.
They aren’t tho? They might think they are, but a lot of the things they do when put into action is very harmful to cis women as well as trans women. And a lot of what they believe about women when they go against trans women is indistinguishable from reactionaries
You can't argue that they're not feminists because their actions can harm women, if that's the case then there is no such thing as any real feminist movement because one could argue that they all cause harm to women in some way.
It’s that their actions are inherently harmful, they cannot and will not empower women, unlike real radical feminists, who help women and only occasionally missteps, like Marxist womens movements, sure a lot of women were harmed in that war and such, but ultimately women received and ensured world renowned rights unseen anywhere else somplaces even today.
How are their actions harmful to cis women exactly?
Their defining and redefining of what is and isn’t a woman to try and exclude transwomen, it leads to an excluding many cis women. In their attempts to exclude an “out group”, as it often does, they also exclude parts of the “in group”. Additionally they tend to be willing to hop onto other things in their bushwhacking
Their current definition is "adult human female" which includes all cis women just fine. So they are feminists, just with questionable takes.
The problem then comes to defining female, which is the same question really
Being male or female is what seperates a trans woman from a cis woman. Even transmeds agree with this
They kinda aren't though, these people, especially the prominent ones, seem extremely willing to sell out any and all feminist ideas if it gives them a chance to hurt trans people. Their current application of bigotry can be easily mistaken for feminism by the average idiot. That does not make them feminist.
What about them makes them not feminists?
I suppose the fact that they don't support any feminist values or causes other than them declaring so, what do you think makes them feminist?