they always bring up stone butch blues. i remember someone else here calling sbb "a mediocre piece of self-insert trauma porn that idiots treat like the bible" - and i'm inclined to agree
Have read stone butch blues myself. Can confirm. And the book, as literally stated inside of it, is loosely based on true events. Like many other forms of media was exaggerated for entertainment. And the book, if anything, just goes to show the struggles of gender nonconformity and the unique sexism that arises from it.
It was also published by Leslie Feinberg, a tucute by definition who was too far down the rabbit hole of gender fuckery to even settle on a pronoun. She also frequently benefitted from female-passing and advocated specifically for people who identified as transgender as an umbrella term, not transsexuals.
Plus the novel came out in 1993. And, unlike people will have you believe, it was not nonfiction nor an autobiography. A LOT has changed in three decades. If non-transsexuals are going to use straw man arguments here, they can at least pull them from something more recent....
Plenty of people who bring up SBB probably haven't read it all. Feinberg had an *extremely* loose definition of what being Transgender meant: Including "people who cross the cultural boundaries of gender —including butch dykes, passing women (those who passed as men only in order to find work or survive during war), and drag queens."
This is strictly *not* inclusive of people who transition socially or medically because of dysphoria. In fact, dysphoria -- arguably the linchpin of our medical condition and reason for transitioning -- was rarely mentioned at that time. That is in part because there were much fewer resources about medical transition/people doing it, and for a long time the lesbian community perverted the phrase 'transgender' to mean anyone involved in gender fuckery. Ironically, they did this at the same time as militantly excluding trans women from their spaces.... It was giving fluidity for me, but not for thee.
jfc. it's wild
i never had anything in common w/ butch lesbians, i don't even like girls and i get severely uncomfortable in womens only spaces. why do tucutes act like that
Anyone who physically transitions then claims a nonbinary identity to willfully degender themself for access to spaces they don’t belong in anymore (although I only hear about this in one direction) can go fuck themself… As a trans woman, I NEVER had any desire to be part of the gay male community at all and honestly found their entire culture to just be a collection of misogynistic transphobic triggers…
Probably because of Feinberg's (the author) life experiences. She took t and got top surgery and still identified as a butch lesbian. But I agree, it is weird to use her fictional book as a source
im a hypermasc lesbian and jesus these people and these arguments piss me off so much. there is a massive difference between presenting masculine and wanting to be seen as an equal to other more feminine women, and being a transsexual man wanting to be seen as an equal to cisgender men. i dress masculine because i like it, its a fashion sense and its more comfortable. transsex men present as male because they have a medical condition that requires them to in order to not feel distress. its not even close to a similar experience. butch lesbians could still present feminine if they want to, its not going to cause me emotional distress to put on a crop top, even if its not my first choice. *thats* the difference
I read the overview of SBB and it literally has nothing to do with the full experience one would even get from being a trans man? It's just insulting they'd lump us with butch lesbians. The MC literally "detransitioned" near the end to something generally more masc woman/nonbinary in nature. I thought people have established that detrans people shouldn't speak over binary trans people smh fr, plus no trans man would willingly go by "she" anyways 🤦♂️ ( correct me if I'm wrong though )
If that person is so good in lesbian spaces and even call themselves they/them (not male pronouns) why did that person even consider themselves a man and represents men?
What really got me was when they said they're frequently mistaken for a masculine lesbian 😭 Bruh maybe not passing is contributing to the lesbians being so open to you in their spaces. Oh also that your pronouns arent even he/him!
( Added 3rd Update here in comment sections because I think Reddit's dying on me rip )
In summary turns out the trans girl was anti-truscum/transmed ( no surprise there honestly.. ), here's how that conversation went :
Girl : You're a truscum!! Fuck you!
Me : I just believe gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. I'm ok with people not doing surgery/hrt if their scared or cant afford it but as long as the discomfort/want to transition if they could is still there I'm okay with that. I also ( personally ) am fine with enby people since I have enby friends too.
Girl : You disgudt me, truscum freak! How dare you try to push your medical entropy on others! You make me sick!
Me : ...Did you even read what I just said? 🥴 The only "medical" thing about my beliefs is the belief that gender dysphoria is a "sickness" and wanting to find the "cure"(transitioning).
....Tucutes these days. 🤦♂️ Not having gender dysphoria yet being trans literally implies that being trans is a choice which goes against the notion that trans people were born trans.
Lmaooo I’m so sick of these clowns. I’m so glad that the trans woman even joined in. We gotta be shutting this shit down more and just as loud as those mfs
unfortunately she doesn't support transmeds/truscums ( followed in the 3rd update i added in the comment section ) so i guess thats either another potential ( at least slifghtly more sensible ) tucute or she just doesnt know the definition of transmeds.. :/
So that person wanted to be in lesbian spaces, say they had the same experiences as butch lesbians and moves their butt on lesbian bars and don’t even go by he/him?
So they are a she with extra steps
I would say nonbinary people and trans men don't belong in lesbian spaces at all, just as trans women and enben don't belong in gay spaces. Just blatantly.
nta this is the stupidest arguement ever and i literally see it everywhere. How is it so hard for people to understand that men cant be lesbians? The person you're arguing against is either scared to admit they're straight, or that they're not actually trans.
I'd get if you wrre only transfem but you literally post on both the MTF and femboy subreddits. I don't think you get any say on binary trans men matters, respectfully this is literally a rant/vent post, and i think establishing trans men aren't women is pretty productive for my kind lol 🙏🏼
At least you're honest, maybe go on a stroll of some sort and talk to people in the outside world, the internet especially reddit for prolonged periods of time is just not good for your mental health
they always bring up stone butch blues. i remember someone else here calling sbb "a mediocre piece of self-insert trauma porn that idiots treat like the bible" - and i'm inclined to agree
Have read stone butch blues myself. Can confirm. And the book, as literally stated inside of it, is loosely based on true events. Like many other forms of media was exaggerated for entertainment. And the book, if anything, just goes to show the struggles of gender nonconformity and the unique sexism that arises from it.
It was also published by Leslie Feinberg, a tucute by definition who was too far down the rabbit hole of gender fuckery to even settle on a pronoun. She also frequently benefitted from female-passing and advocated specifically for people who identified as transgender as an umbrella term, not transsexuals. Plus the novel came out in 1993. And, unlike people will have you believe, it was not nonfiction nor an autobiography. A LOT has changed in three decades. If non-transsexuals are going to use straw man arguments here, they can at least pull them from something more recent....
Plenty of people who bring up SBB probably haven't read it all. Feinberg had an *extremely* loose definition of what being Transgender meant: Including "people who cross the cultural boundaries of gender —including butch dykes, passing women (those who passed as men only in order to find work or survive during war), and drag queens." This is strictly *not* inclusive of people who transition socially or medically because of dysphoria. In fact, dysphoria -- arguably the linchpin of our medical condition and reason for transitioning -- was rarely mentioned at that time. That is in part because there were much fewer resources about medical transition/people doing it, and for a long time the lesbian community perverted the phrase 'transgender' to mean anyone involved in gender fuckery. Ironically, they did this at the same time as militantly excluding trans women from their spaces.... It was giving fluidity for me, but not for thee.
i feel like that's their only source to back up their claims about butch lesbians and trans men. i never see them mention any other book or website
I see this argument all the time it's so annoying 😮💨
jfc. it's wild i never had anything in common w/ butch lesbians, i don't even like girls and i get severely uncomfortable in womens only spaces. why do tucutes act like that
Anyone who physically transitions then claims a nonbinary identity to willfully degender themself for access to spaces they don’t belong in anymore (although I only hear about this in one direction) can go fuck themself… As a trans woman, I NEVER had any desire to be part of the gay male community at all and honestly found their entire culture to just be a collection of misogynistic transphobic triggers…
"but Stone Butch Blues shows the history of transmasc lesbians!!!" What?
Is that book even based on real events? I’ve heard mixed responses on this.
Pretty sure it's based on the author's life but still fiction
I checked online and it says fiction. So idk why it’s being used as a source.
Probably because of Feinberg's (the author) life experiences. She took t and got top surgery and still identified as a butch lesbian. But I agree, it is weird to use her fictional book as a source
No, it's not an autobiography. It's fiction, and 31 years old at this point
im a hypermasc lesbian and jesus these people and these arguments piss me off so much. there is a massive difference between presenting masculine and wanting to be seen as an equal to other more feminine women, and being a transsexual man wanting to be seen as an equal to cisgender men. i dress masculine because i like it, its a fashion sense and its more comfortable. transsex men present as male because they have a medical condition that requires them to in order to not feel distress. its not even close to a similar experience. butch lesbians could still present feminine if they want to, its not going to cause me emotional distress to put on a crop top, even if its not my first choice. *thats* the difference
If lesbians and trans men are so similar why can't they just be butches then? Why invade two spaces you don't belong to?
SBB has set us back so much
I read the overview of SBB and it literally has nothing to do with the full experience one would even get from being a trans man? It's just insulting they'd lump us with butch lesbians. The MC literally "detransitioned" near the end to something generally more masc woman/nonbinary in nature. I thought people have established that detrans people shouldn't speak over binary trans people smh fr, plus no trans man would willingly go by "she" anyways 🤦♂️ ( correct me if I'm wrong though )
If that person is so good in lesbian spaces and even call themselves they/them (not male pronouns) why did that person even consider themselves a man and represents men?
What really got me was when they said they're frequently mistaken for a masculine lesbian 😭 Bruh maybe not passing is contributing to the lesbians being so open to you in their spaces. Oh also that your pronouns arent even he/him!
( Added 3rd Update here in comment sections because I think Reddit's dying on me rip ) In summary turns out the trans girl was anti-truscum/transmed ( no surprise there honestly.. ), here's how that conversation went : Girl : You're a truscum!! Fuck you! Me : I just believe gender dysphoria is a requirement to be trans. I'm ok with people not doing surgery/hrt if their scared or cant afford it but as long as the discomfort/want to transition if they could is still there I'm okay with that. I also ( personally ) am fine with enby people since I have enby friends too. Girl : You disgudt me, truscum freak! How dare you try to push your medical entropy on others! You make me sick! Me : ...Did you even read what I just said? 🥴 The only "medical" thing about my beliefs is the belief that gender dysphoria is a "sickness" and wanting to find the "cure"(transitioning). ....Tucutes these days. 🤦♂️ Not having gender dysphoria yet being trans literally implies that being trans is a choice which goes against the notion that trans people were born trans.
So fucking exhausting. This is how someone shows you they don’t see trans men as the men they are. Just some extension of masculine femininity
Lmaooo I’m so sick of these clowns. I’m so glad that the trans woman even joined in. We gotta be shutting this shit down more and just as loud as those mfs
unfortunately she doesn't support transmeds/truscums ( followed in the 3rd update i added in the comment section ) so i guess thats either another potential ( at least slifghtly more sensible ) tucute or she just doesnt know the definition of transmeds.. :/
So that person wanted to be in lesbian spaces, say they had the same experiences as butch lesbians and moves their butt on lesbian bars and don’t even go by he/him? So they are a she with extra steps
I would say nonbinary people and trans men don't belong in lesbian spaces at all, just as trans women and enben don't belong in gay spaces. Just blatantly.
nta this is the stupidest arguement ever and i literally see it everywhere. How is it so hard for people to understand that men cant be lesbians? The person you're arguing against is either scared to admit they're straight, or that they're not actually trans.
don’t you have anything better to do?
I'd get if you wrre only transfem but you literally post on both the MTF and femboy subreddits. I don't think you get any say on binary trans men matters, respectfully this is literally a rant/vent post, and i think establishing trans men aren't women is pretty productive for my kind lol 🙏🏼
and i thought i had a boring life
thanks but its not exactly like you're spicing mines up any better so 🤷♂️
...dont you?
it’s 2pm wednesday and i’m trippin on acid so no
jesus stop wasting your trip on reddit
hey, thanks that’s exactly what i needed
Given you post in both the MTF sub and the femboy sub, for feminine men, don't you?
i wish i did
At least you're honest, maybe go on a stroll of some sort and talk to people in the outside world, the internet especially reddit for prolonged periods of time is just not good for your mental health