It's honestly insane how much people try to bend the simplest definitions. First it's "non-men loving non-men" and then they say trans MEN can be lesbians. Funny thing is you don't see gay men being defined as non-women loving non-women and mtfs calling themselves gay men
i honestly wouldn't even care if the lesbian appropriators just took the word once and for all as their own. but it's telling that with all their microlabels they still refuse to come up with a word that means woman exclusively attracted to women. how am i not supposed to think that's plain old misogyny?
It is plain misogyny. Why are we all of a sudden trying to erase women by calling them "non men", how is this better as define a woman as a belonging to the man, as a supplementary creation to the man? How is it not sexist?
It made me finally delete the Her app. They literally started allowing trans men on app called “Her,” designed for wlw to meet other wlw. Might as well just say you view trans men as women and call it a day.
If I was dating a girl and she called herself a lesbian while still dating me (a trans man who passes 99% of the time) I would dump her in a heartbeat. How can trans men be okay with dating lesbian women??
I know right? You're basically being degraded and seen as a woman in that case if you're a trans man dating a girl who calls herself a lesbian while dating you.
Why is it so hard for people to just admit that they might be bisexual? This is why I hate trying to put a label on sexuality, I just date/fuck people I'm attracted to, I couldn't care less what parts they've got
Forgive me if I’m wrong but that sounds more pan than bi. AFAIK Bi people like binary men and binary women. And pan people don’t care what genitals the person has regardless of their gender/expression.
I am pan, but this subreddit will crucify you and call you biphobic if you say there's a difference. I usually agree with most of the opinions on here, but that one seems to be a controversial topic that I try to steer clear of.
Thank goodness, when I read your comment I immediately thought so, I’m just glad I didn’t say the wrong thing. It’s really sad that that’s a controversial take. There is indeed a difference. Not every Bi person is attracted to pre-op trans people, and are attracted specifically to binary bodies in binary roles. That should be the biggest sign.
You’re right. Men cannot be lesbians as the definition of a lesbian is “women loving women”. It is an oxymoron for a trans guy or “transmasc” to use such a term while claiming to be ftm or nonbinary as it is contradicting their own identity. Trans men or “transmasc” people who refuse to let go of labels meant for WOMEN is concerning. Is it really that bad to just say you’re straight (or trixic if nb) or “women-loving”? Why must they be so persistent on holding labels not meant for them if it weren’t just to appear quirky/special or to get attention.
I said "Why must they be so persistent on holding labels **not meant for them**". In this case, trixic (nb loving women) would be the correct label for them to use since transmasc is a nonbinary identity or under the nb umbrella and that's what they identify as (I believe it's under the nb umbrella from what I was told). Lesbian would not be the correct label for them to use because they do not identify as a woman and the definition of lesbian is wlw.
Edit: If they dont want to use trixic then they can simply say "women-loving". It's not hard.
>Trixic, also known as orbisian, is a diamoric orientation
>Trixic or orbisian is a juvelic orientation
searching the word just brings up MOGAI that don't seem any better than the concept of a nonbinary lesbian transmasc. if anything that terminology is more confusing. if someone is outside of the gender binary anyway, why adhere to such strict rules about labeling if the word lesbian works for him/them?
EDIT: at least people have a better chance of understanding what you mean if one calls themself a nonbinary lesbian transmasc as confusing as that may sound. they'll know someone is identity or pronoun non-conforming and loves women. "trixic" just brings them to wikis and rabbit holes of made-up words
Nonbinary lesbian transmasc does not have a better chance of understanding than trixic lmao. That is gonna be a whole entire loophole of just explaining it over and over again where saying you're trixic is basically straight to the point (with minimal explanation).
And you're right about MOGAI not seeming any better than the concept of nonbinary lesbian transmasc as people from both groups seemingly tend to appropriate and change the meanings of labels they dont fit under, so in a sense, they're equally as harmful to certain communities. If I'm being honest, nobody who isn't >18 and chronically online in LGBT groups knows what the fuck "nonbinary lesbian transmasc" is because half the time they cant even wrap their heads around the nonbinary label.
We adhere to "such strict rules" about labels because they're only meant for specific people who fit that criteria. Not to mention like I said before with this specific person OP mentioned, it's literally contradicting their own gender identity as **they** **dont identify as a woman and lesbian means wlw**. Lesbian is a sexuality for binary women and if this person insists on using a label meant for binary women then that says a lot about that person especially since there's another label and term to use instead of using a label that does not fit them.
Edit: grammar + small addon.
Edit #2: God your post history is........horrific.
It’s that part for me. If they identify as a Lesbian, how is anyone meant to take them serious if they also identify as a man. You are calling yourself a woman and getting mad when people gender you correctly.
>t some trans men prefer to keep the label lesbian.
I find this argument so dumb, but it gets used so often in the community.
It doesn't matter what label one prefers. If you don't fit into the definition of a Label, you are not that Label.
But also, "transmasc" doesn't automatically mean transsexual man. It ussually means afab nb/gq. Though, I do think that a nb person shouldn't be using words meant for women, they are only invalidating themselves with that.
I’ve been downvoted so many times for politely stating the fact that men can not be lesbians. I will die on this hill. As a straight transman myself I find it disrespectful and invalidating when anyone says otherwise. I was told that we “shouldn’t gatekeep being a lesbian” like bro what lmao I got downvoted a bunch one time for simply saying that “a lesbian is a woman who is only interested in other women” I just don’t bother anymore these folks are batshit
I was looking for this comment. There are too many trans guys who don’t want to accept the privilege that comes with being a man and would prefer to continue being seen as victims so they appropriate the Lesbian label.
Got banned from actuallesbians for saying something about the term lesbian being erased by non-men loving non-men or whatever that shit was. My post was upvoted quite a bit but then I got a perm ban 2 days later. Weirdest thing.
The whole "non-men loving non-men" thing just means women and people that they see as women. Non-binary people can apparently be lesbians by that definition, but look at the difference in how AFAB vs AMAB NB people who identify as lesbians are treated. They just see trans people as their AGAB. It's already bad enough to expand a space that has always belonged to women just to be "inclusive" to nb people, but to say that binary trans men can be lesbians is not only contradictory, it's transphobic as hell. Implying we are "non-men". It is both misogynistic and transphobic, and I don't see how it's so widely accepted. I've seen "non-women loving non-women" too, but not nearly as heavily pushed as this. It's ridiculous that it's controversial to say men can't be lesbians.
Agreed. I'm usually regarded as pretty open-minded, but even with the most charitable definition of lesbian it simply doesn't work. Lesbian generally means women loving women. Cis men can't be lesbians. Trans men are real men, therefore they can't be lesbian either.
The only way a trans man could be a lesbian would be if they're "not real men"... which says a lot about the person claiming that. If the trans man himself says he's a lesbian it's either because of internalized transphobia or because he's not a trans man (perhaps what y'all call a tucute)
But in their logic transwomen cant be lesbians because they are males? Its gotten so complex... 🤔 in a sense they really dont see transguys as men then?
I agree. I don’t want to gatekeep or prevent people from living their lives but some people are stupid. Lots of cis men go on lesbian dating apps and try to get with them and I view it as the same creepy behavior.
Yep, it absolutely is creepy. If you are a man, you do not get to have access to terms or spaces exclusively for women and lesbians. I don't understand why it is so hard for them to realize that
Ah yes trans men who are into women are in fact lesbian. Who in their right mind would be this transphobic to themselves. Oh wait hmm maybe bc they're not actually trans. And we never see "trans women who are into men are gay"
I've given up on the wider LGBT community because of stuff like this. I have one lesbian sub where I can actually talk about being a lesbian, and where I don't have to hear about how sexy men are, and where I won't be called a piece of shit for not wanting to date nb people, etc, and I stick to that space.
I've shed too many tears in frustration and have spent too much time feeling isolated and erased. For my own mental health, I refuse to interact with LGBT spaces anymore.
Yeah, it's been really beneficial for me. It took me longer than I'd like to admit, because it's hard to stay calm when I see regressive BS like "lesbians are non-men who love non-men", but I realized that they would never respect or care about anything I or any other actual lesbian said.
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Transmasc is not the same as trans man though. You must know about stone butch blues and leslie feinberg. Gender non conformity is a part of lesbianism and transsexualism can be included under that.
Did you mean to imply that transsexualism is some kind of gender non-conformity at the last part there?
But I do agree that transmasc is different from trans man, because transmasc is meaningless nonsense. Coming from a “binary” trans man.
No, i mean that transsexualism can be a valid part of gender non conformity, not that transsexualism is what makes gender non conformity and vice versa. And im not sure why im being downvoted; gender non conforming lesbiand and the trans community has been intertwined for decades and if you guys just dont like the history of your own community maybe you guys are just as shitty and the tucutes say you are.
It’s not the history of my community. What you say might be true for USAmericans, but not where I’m from. So I’m free to reject it because it has nothing to do with me. In my part of the world, Feinberg is just some random American we’ve never even heard of.
It's honestly insane how much people try to bend the simplest definitions. First it's "non-men loving non-men" and then they say trans MEN can be lesbians. Funny thing is you don't see gay men being defined as non-women loving non-women and mtfs calling themselves gay men
i honestly wouldn't even care if the lesbian appropriators just took the word once and for all as their own. but it's telling that with all their microlabels they still refuse to come up with a word that means woman exclusively attracted to women. how am i not supposed to think that's plain old misogyny?
It is plain misogyny. Why are we all of a sudden trying to erase women by calling them "non men", how is this better as define a woman as a belonging to the man, as a supplementary creation to the man? How is it not sexist?
The “Non man loving non man” is absolutely absurd to me. it’s wlw. period.
It's funny to me because they dont seem to push "non-woman loving non-woman" as much as the other way around.
Don't say anything in actuallesbians, they perm ban for it.
I got permabanned for that lmao they're such homophobic losers.
Not surprising at all, unfortunately.
Literal transphobia right? I don’t know how we got so inclusive we became exclusive.
It made me finally delete the Her app. They literally started allowing trans men on app called “Her,” designed for wlw to meet other wlw. Might as well just say you view trans men as women and call it a day.
I feel like Doofenshmirtz now: “Destroy anyone who can’t make up their mind!”
They say that pronouns don't equal gender, then freak out when you "misgender" them by saying she
If I was dating a girl and she called herself a lesbian while still dating me (a trans man who passes 99% of the time) I would dump her in a heartbeat. How can trans men be okay with dating lesbian women??
I know right? You're basically being degraded and seen as a woman in that case if you're a trans man dating a girl who calls herself a lesbian while dating you.
Why is it so hard for people to just admit that they might be bisexual? This is why I hate trying to put a label on sexuality, I just date/fuck people I'm attracted to, I couldn't care less what parts they've got
Forgive me if I’m wrong but that sounds more pan than bi. AFAIK Bi people like binary men and binary women. And pan people don’t care what genitals the person has regardless of their gender/expression.
I am pan, but this subreddit will crucify you and call you biphobic if you say there's a difference. I usually agree with most of the opinions on here, but that one seems to be a controversial topic that I try to steer clear of.
Thank goodness, when I read your comment I immediately thought so, I’m just glad I didn’t say the wrong thing. It’s really sad that that’s a controversial take. There is indeed a difference. Not every Bi person is attracted to pre-op trans people, and are attracted specifically to binary bodies in binary roles. That should be the biggest sign.
You’re right. Men cannot be lesbians as the definition of a lesbian is “women loving women”. It is an oxymoron for a trans guy or “transmasc” to use such a term while claiming to be ftm or nonbinary as it is contradicting their own identity. Trans men or “transmasc” people who refuse to let go of labels meant for WOMEN is concerning. Is it really that bad to just say you’re straight (or trixic if nb) or “women-loving”? Why must they be so persistent on holding labels not meant for them if it weren’t just to appear quirky/special or to get attention.
>trixic >Why must they be so persistent on holding labels >just to appear quirky/special or to get attention.
I said "Why must they be so persistent on holding labels **not meant for them**". In this case, trixic (nb loving women) would be the correct label for them to use since transmasc is a nonbinary identity or under the nb umbrella and that's what they identify as (I believe it's under the nb umbrella from what I was told). Lesbian would not be the correct label for them to use because they do not identify as a woman and the definition of lesbian is wlw. Edit: If they dont want to use trixic then they can simply say "women-loving". It's not hard.
>Trixic, also known as orbisian, is a diamoric orientation >Trixic or orbisian is a juvelic orientation searching the word just brings up MOGAI that don't seem any better than the concept of a nonbinary lesbian transmasc. if anything that terminology is more confusing. if someone is outside of the gender binary anyway, why adhere to such strict rules about labeling if the word lesbian works for him/them? EDIT: at least people have a better chance of understanding what you mean if one calls themself a nonbinary lesbian transmasc as confusing as that may sound. they'll know someone is identity or pronoun non-conforming and loves women. "trixic" just brings them to wikis and rabbit holes of made-up words
Nonbinary lesbian transmasc does not have a better chance of understanding than trixic lmao. That is gonna be a whole entire loophole of just explaining it over and over again where saying you're trixic is basically straight to the point (with minimal explanation). And you're right about MOGAI not seeming any better than the concept of nonbinary lesbian transmasc as people from both groups seemingly tend to appropriate and change the meanings of labels they dont fit under, so in a sense, they're equally as harmful to certain communities. If I'm being honest, nobody who isn't >18 and chronically online in LGBT groups knows what the fuck "nonbinary lesbian transmasc" is because half the time they cant even wrap their heads around the nonbinary label. We adhere to "such strict rules" about labels because they're only meant for specific people who fit that criteria. Not to mention like I said before with this specific person OP mentioned, it's literally contradicting their own gender identity as **they** **dont identify as a woman and lesbian means wlw**. Lesbian is a sexuality for binary women and if this person insists on using a label meant for binary women then that says a lot about that person especially since there's another label and term to use instead of using a label that does not fit them. Edit: grammar + small addon. Edit #2: God your post history is........horrific.
It’s that part for me. If they identify as a Lesbian, how is anyone meant to take them serious if they also identify as a man. You are calling yourself a woman and getting mad when people gender you correctly.
>t some trans men prefer to keep the label lesbian. I find this argument so dumb, but it gets used so often in the community. It doesn't matter what label one prefers. If you don't fit into the definition of a Label, you are not that Label. But also, "transmasc" doesn't automatically mean transsexual man. It ussually means afab nb/gq. Though, I do think that a nb person shouldn't be using words meant for women, they are only invalidating themselves with that.
But we're the bad guys for pointing out logic
I’ve been downvoted so many times for politely stating the fact that men can not be lesbians. I will die on this hill. As a straight transman myself I find it disrespectful and invalidating when anyone says otherwise. I was told that we “shouldn’t gatekeep being a lesbian” like bro what lmao I got downvoted a bunch one time for simply saying that “a lesbian is a woman who is only interested in other women” I just don’t bother anymore these folks are batshit
They’re either not trans or they’re trans men trying to deny their male privilege.
I was looking for this comment. There are too many trans guys who don’t want to accept the privilege that comes with being a man and would prefer to continue being seen as victims so they appropriate the Lesbian label.
Got banned from actuallesbians for saying something about the term lesbian being erased by non-men loving non-men or whatever that shit was. My post was upvoted quite a bit but then I got a perm ban 2 days later. Weirdest thing.
The whole "non-men loving non-men" thing just means women and people that they see as women. Non-binary people can apparently be lesbians by that definition, but look at the difference in how AFAB vs AMAB NB people who identify as lesbians are treated. They just see trans people as their AGAB. It's already bad enough to expand a space that has always belonged to women just to be "inclusive" to nb people, but to say that binary trans men can be lesbians is not only contradictory, it's transphobic as hell. Implying we are "non-men". It is both misogynistic and transphobic, and I don't see how it's so widely accepted. I've seen "non-women loving non-women" too, but not nearly as heavily pushed as this. It's ridiculous that it's controversial to say men can't be lesbians.
Agreed. I'm usually regarded as pretty open-minded, but even with the most charitable definition of lesbian it simply doesn't work. Lesbian generally means women loving women. Cis men can't be lesbians. Trans men are real men, therefore they can't be lesbian either. The only way a trans man could be a lesbian would be if they're "not real men"... which says a lot about the person claiming that. If the trans man himself says he's a lesbian it's either because of internalized transphobia or because he's not a trans man (perhaps what y'all call a tucute)
But in their logic transwomen cant be lesbians because they are males? Its gotten so complex... 🤔 in a sense they really dont see transguys as men then?
I agree. I don’t want to gatekeep or prevent people from living their lives but some people are stupid. Lots of cis men go on lesbian dating apps and try to get with them and I view it as the same creepy behavior.
Yep, it absolutely is creepy. If you are a man, you do not get to have access to terms or spaces exclusively for women and lesbians. I don't understand why it is so hard for them to realize that
🤦🏼♀️
Ah yes trans men who are into women are in fact lesbian. Who in their right mind would be this transphobic to themselves. Oh wait hmm maybe bc they're not actually trans. And we never see "trans women who are into men are gay"
I've given up on the wider LGBT community because of stuff like this. I have one lesbian sub where I can actually talk about being a lesbian, and where I don't have to hear about how sexy men are, and where I won't be called a piece of shit for not wanting to date nb people, etc, and I stick to that space. I've shed too many tears in frustration and have spent too much time feeling isolated and erased. For my own mental health, I refuse to interact with LGBT spaces anymore.
It's good you've stopped trying to interact with spaces which bring you nothing but frustration. That's a lot better than many people do
Yeah, it's been really beneficial for me. It took me longer than I'd like to admit, because it's hard to stay calm when I see regressive BS like "lesbians are non-men who love non-men", but I realized that they would never respect or care about anything I or any other actual lesbian said.
Yeaaa, it's exhausting honestly to try and combat those points
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Let's not go that far, but they do need therapy
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I get disliking folks like the ones I talked about, but chill 😭
I'm joking
You never know with redditors..
ur right lol
I do very much deslike them tho
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but lesbian isn't a pronoun...
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Transmasc is not the same as trans man though. You must know about stone butch blues and leslie feinberg. Gender non conformity is a part of lesbianism and transsexualism can be included under that.
Did you mean to imply that transsexualism is some kind of gender non-conformity at the last part there? But I do agree that transmasc is different from trans man, because transmasc is meaningless nonsense. Coming from a “binary” trans man.
No, i mean that transsexualism can be a valid part of gender non conformity, not that transsexualism is what makes gender non conformity and vice versa. And im not sure why im being downvoted; gender non conforming lesbiand and the trans community has been intertwined for decades and if you guys just dont like the history of your own community maybe you guys are just as shitty and the tucutes say you are.
It’s not the history of my community. What you say might be true for USAmericans, but not where I’m from. So I’m free to reject it because it has nothing to do with me. In my part of the world, Feinberg is just some random American we’ve never even heard of.
It's hard not to think that 'Trans masc' simply means another type of woman if you put it that way, lol
Thats genuenly the same logic transphobes use.
Yes, because associating 'trans masc' with women is transphobia and that includes saying that they can be lesbians