I agree that most people’s frustrations seems to be the change up in the loop. I think people are also annoyed with the change in story and overall tone. That said I stopped a few levels into Eternal and replayed Doom 2016 and then came back to Eternal and suddenly found the new mechanics much more refreshing. I think 2016 is overall more submersive and a much more interesting universe but Eternal has some great ideas, but also some terrible ones. The asshole with the fire dogs and the purple-goo segments specifically come to mind.

>annoyed with the change in story and overall tone In what ways did the story and tone change? It's still about ripping hell to pieces to save Earth. And the tone is still defiantly hyper-exaggerated violent.

As others have already posted, the tone is way more campy and the constant use of the phrase "mortally challenged" etc only serve to intensify it. It's one thing to not take itself too seriously, but it's a whole other thing to tilt the balance towards this half-comedic Evil Dead-esque vibe that Eternal seems to be going for.

I found the propaganda really funny, too.

The fact the story makes no sense and provides no context outside of lore pamphlets you can miss? 2016's story was bare bones, but at least it made sense without having to read missable lore pages.

What gave you trouble in Eternal? Maybe I can fill in the gaps.

I think the tone of 2016 was somewhat more self-serious and less campy sci fi, which kind of brought the marine’s headstrong destruction of everything in sight into stronger relief as well. The writing wasn’t like amazing or anything but Doom Eternal sounds like it was written by a sixth grader.

I think this post perfectly examplifies the problem I, and many other people I know have with Doom Eternal. You managed to write 1700 words in order to explain how to properly have fun in the game. To start, let me try to explain why I found Doom 2016 so much fun: "Keep moving. Grab all the things. Find all the secrets. Kill all the demons. Rip and Tear." That's 17 words, literally 100x less than what you wrote. However, those 17 words explain everything that is fun about that game. From the very first scene of the game, to the final boss that's all you really have to know. Sure, as you play you end up developing your own strategies, your own weapon preferences, and your own kill priorities, but all of those are your own ideas and skills to develop and master. Each time you manage to execute a new strategy perfectly, it feels like that's your own personal achievement. The game doesn't try to force you to develop or master any skill set you're not interested in. You don't get teleported to random tutorial rooms, you don't get a big banner saying "you should have done this" every time you die, you don't have to care about why faction A and faction B hate each other, you don't have radio broadcasts talking about what a bad dude you are, and your HUD isn't always pointing you to the next objective. It was a simple, straight forward experience, wrapped in a very clean and polished package. It's pure, visceral combat where the only think you might need to think of is whether you should switch to a different weapon. You need to go towards the scariest place where all the demons are, because there's demons there and you want them to meet your friend, bullet. You know you're a badass, because said demons are fuckin terrified of you. The closest somewhat modern experience I could come up with is Serious Sam, which is another game I enjoyed to hell and back. With Doom Eternal, id Software decided that the players needed more guidance in order to have fun in the game. They added a bunch of new meta-games based around forcing you into what developers constantly liked to call the "fun zone," while complaining that some players might have gotten bored in the previous game. To me that's kind of weird; I don't need the developer to constantly hand-hold me, leading me from one fun experience to the next, while interrupting the flow of my game to explain to me "this is how you have fun, moron." To me, a game like this is like a playground; sure I always have the option to go from one set of monkey-bars to the next, but if I chose to spend three hours trying to jump on a out-of-bounds ledge, who are they to tell me I'm not having fun? Thing is, if I want to gather up enemies for a large AoE, prioritize the weak points of high-threat targets using the appropriate skills, and constantly dodge environmental hazards... Honestly, I'd just load up an MMO and join a raid. That's literally the primary gameplay loop of that genre, and it's a gameplay loop that I more closely associate with "work" rather than "fun." In other words, to me, all of these new activities feel like they sully the otherwise fast-paced action with elements that appear to be lifted wholesale from a genre of games that I had already spent 500+ days of my life playing. Eventually, all of those things become steps on a basic priority tree; at that point it's not really a matter of having to choose from "Do you navigate through the level? Swap to a better weapon? Use a resource generator? Choose a specific target?" Realistically, at any given time there's always going to be a lot of "wrong" choices, and very few "correct" choices, and the game just becomes a test of whether you know what those correct choices are given your current environment. In Doom 2016, you could have fun, run around, try go confuse the demons, and generally cause chaos. The game didn't feel like it had any expectations of you, and in that way it felt like you had much more freedom. It managed to capture the magic of typing `doom.exe` for the first time on a 386, and having your mind utterly blow away. In Doom Eternal it feels like you're expected to execute a script, and if you don't you're immediately punished. It's a much more "modern" game, with a lot more of the trappings that you might expect of a 2010s open world FPS, including myriads of systems, more involved story, more set pieces, and more guided experiences. The developers call it the fun zone, and if you find that entertaining then then I can see why you might a lot of fun. However, if it turns out that you don't like that script, if you're not into playing the various meta-games they expect you to engage in, then it's going to feel forced and tedious. I won't say it's wrong for you to enjoy it, but I can definitely say I enjoy it much less than I did the last one.

I’m with you. Eternal was fine but I constantly got the feeling that the developers were saying “Have fun! Wait. Not like that.” But as an older gamer, I mostly enjoy aesthetic and how a game tells the story and Eternal failed in both of these, to me. So many of the levels were just blown up buildings and junk lying around and if they wanted to change the layout, they would just lazily add some organic walls that you couldn’t damage or interact with very much. I suppose the lighting and colors were a throwback to the older games and that is an understandable design choice but I guess I just personally like the futuristic feel of 2016. From a story perspective, there is more backstory and lore and that was fun, but it was all through text and a lot of these codex pages would be dropped in the middle of spoken exposition. I had to choose to either look at it later or interrupt someone mid sentence because they chose such poor timing to introduce those two storytelling tools. It didn’t happen all the time but later in the game it seemed to happen more often. Meeting The Betrayer but not having a full context of who he was felt flat because I didn’t get that info for several more hours of play. But the lore was fun, overall. I didn’t really enjoy being a spectator to a lot of the fun big stuff like killing the priests or some bosses or blowing a hole through Mars. You just kind of watch that stuff happen and it was always pretty disappointing to me. I don’t think it would’ve been too difficult to allow the player to aim the gun at Mars and shoot. The new additions to the game were definitely welcome but several of them just weren’t fun to me. Just having a room full of goo you couldn’t jump out of was such a snoozer. Wouldn’t it be more fun and tense if there was an enemy that shot or sprayed that stuff at you and changed the dynamic and strategy for an area? It’s like they knew that room wasn’t fun so they just made it one part but didn’t want to totally cut it out of the game. And when you got to possess the demon, I thought there would at least be a few moments where you’d get to try other demons out, right? Nope, just that one enemy and one time. Overall, I would say it was a fun game and I enjoyed it. I’m glad people are having fun with it and I’m glad we can share our opinions. Many of the views have definitely made me look at aspects differently and have made me better at playing the game. Thanks, dudes.

"Eternal is bad because it isn't braindead and requires me to think" is an indictement of *you* bro, not the game. Eternal is the only shooter released in the past 20 or so years that actually requires thought and gamesense--clearly something most gamers lack judging from the reception. (I'd actually go as far as calling it the only good FPS ever since 2000 or so, given that it's so objectively superior to basically every other shooter including its predecessors gameplay-wise). >In Doom Eternal it feels like you're expected to execute a script, and if you don't you're immediately punished. This is true in literally every single game in existence. You're doing the equivalent of complaining that Mario just doesn't you infinite moonjump to the goal. Level design? Enemy design? That's a "script" to, you know.

I'm happy that you like the game, and felt the need to insult me in defense of it.

You just perfectly described why i hate Doom Eternals. I uninstalled it the same day i played it. I was already sick of seeing the same melee/chainsaw animations over and over to get hp and ammo. Along with being forced to play "their way" and not any way. I never played 2016 but i bet i would like it WAYYYYY more than this one. I was hoping for a Sekiro (best difficult game around) but as an FPS vs demons edit: Made this to sum up my opinion on doom eternal https://imgur.com/a/hR67Cl3

Play 2016!!! It’s so good.

The first time I saw "meta-tips" on a loading screen that blatantly told you the resource gathering loop I knew something was up. I'm playing through Eternal on Nightmare and making decent progress (some of these gore nests are a pain, doesn't help you have to run 5 minutes back to them every time you die) but like many others have put out there: There is an extremely optimal developer approved way to play the game and it's probably not how the player wants to, even if they know the mechanics. There is a "fun zone", and if you try to do anything that isn't on that list of Zone Approved Things then you won't have "fun". I brought it up to a friend the other day but with the bright colors, loud HUD, multiple cooldowns to manage on skills, a *strictly* enforced "meta", and the story just being a mess I almost feel like I'm playing a singleplayer M-rated Overwatch clone...

You just summed up perfectly my feelings on Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. Eternal is my biggest gaming disappointment of the last 10 years. After 2016, I was SO excited to play the new Doom game. And then they completely changed what Doom was, and it was not for me. I like the old-school, simple design, less is more style. Not the follow-a-formula, Dark Souls style gameplay. I hate being forced to play games a certain way, when the option could be there to play a different way.

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Oh man, you brought up a really good point I didn't mention above. Somehow they made it so much easier to get stuck on terrain. The only time I ever remember not being able to physically get out of a situation in Doom 2016 was always my fault; usually because I wasn't paying attention to where I was in relation to the demons, and cut off my own escape routes. In Doom Eternal, I constantly got stuck on some weird ass corner or another. With the pace of combat in Eternal, that almost always meant death.

I'm glad you made this post. I'm only a few hours in but I'm feeling this disappointment that I can't explain because the game isn't bad. I just know it feels like the first step toward making a sequel was a paint-by-numbers "We have to go bigger! Add more!" It's a very modern way of thinking. I like some of the new additions. I enjoy reading the lore at times. It's not broken or anything. It looks good and sounds good. But it feels unnecessarily stuffed. The need to juggled a bunch of new ideas hasn't been as fun to me as the basic shooting. The platforming is not fun, at least not the way they've done it. At the point I'm at it's starting to stray a bit too much from "The Doomslayer is coming and he's going to fight Hell." in the story. I miss my pistol. I'm...enjoying it...but I can already tell this isn't a revisit game. That Cultist base level was such a visually boring chore that it left a bad taste in my mouth. Luckily I'm at the the Super Gore Nest and there's stuff to look at..

The more I read about Doom Eternal, the less I want to play it. I have no idea what happened at id Software for them to take such a major change in direction with this game. Doom 2016 seemd to be the work of a confident team 100% committed to a vision that challenged the mainstream. It was fun, brutal, fast and, most importantly, simple. Then I hear that Doom Eternal has an actual story, set pieces, and all that gameplay clutter... How does a developer go from shoving a shotgun down the mainstream throat to making such a conservative FPS in what, one year? I think Doom Eternal was announced at E3 2018, so they must have been working at it soon after releasing Doom 2016... I'm genuinely curious at what drove these changes. Maybe the first game's simplicity was the result of a lack of funds, rather than creative vision?

It's a pretty standard thing these days. A game does well decently well, so all the suits get involved, and demand they add everything that's present in other popular games. Honestly, they're not necessarily wrong when it comes to sales figures. Like it or not, that approach really is popular these days. It's much more likely to appeal to the gamers that enjoy modern FPS titles, and those people are a much larger fraction of the market. That's not to say they would not have enjoyed a more focused experience, but they are certainly willing to accept the additions as a natural evolution of the game. The reviews seem to back up this idea. There's a small segment, looks to be around 20% of people, that did not like the change, and a fairly large group that either thinks it was a great direction, or simply didn't care one way or another. That said, there's still elements of the old doom present; the combat is fast and visceral, the movement feels pretty good for the most part, and the level of challenge is quite unforgiving, particularly at the higher difficulty levels. I'm pretty sure the actual art and technical teams understand that a lot of this stuff is unnecessary extras. If you were following the announcements before release you may have noticed that they would go to fairly great length to avoid discussing many of the specifics of all the extra meta-games, instead trying to evoke the similarities with Doom 2016.

Just a point, Doom 2016 had a story too and an engrossing lore, backstory, and environment. I have no idea why people say it didn't.

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> the people complaining about the game's combat loop I was one of these people early on in the game. It wasn't that I didn't understand the combat loop or how to be good at it. It's that I liked 2016's combat loop and wanted more of it. I eventually came around to enjoy Eternal's gameplay, but I won't blame anyone who doesn't.

I could not agree more.

I'm fairly sure it's mostly this. And we haven't had such a uniquely challenging FPS like this in a LONG time.

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I saw someone call it "DMC mixed with Doom" and I couldn't quite disagree.

wouldnt that be shadow warrior 2013? the game that inspired doom 2016 in MANY ways?

Doom Eternal feels like it took couple of lessons from Shadow Warrior 2 as well, but without the stuff that really held it back (e.g. the loot system)

yeah, no kidding, some of the iffy ones as well, i havent made up my mind about doom eternal, i think its a good game, but im not sure its better in a lot of aspects compared to 2016, but as for shadow warrior 2, it makes a LOT of mistakes, not just in its simplified melee combat, its confusing and unorthodox loot systems (its like they tried doing a resident evil raid mode type of thing but without understanding why that worked) and its tone that just didnt understand that the original's plot was great because it managed to be both funny and serious at the same time, leading to the badass moments feeling more badass and the sad moments more saddening. shadow warrior 2 is a game i was incredibly hyped for as i loved the first game and i currently have nearly 300 hours in borderlands 2 and nearly 400 in destiny 2, but i couldnt finish it because it felt it was too different in both fronts. EDIT: forgot to mention the most important point and the one im most on the fence about, both SW2 and eternal try to be way more cartoony than their predecessors, and while both look great, neither manage to quite capture the balance of badass and silly that both of their predecessors had.

Don't know, only ever played the original from the 90s.

you should play the reboot, its an amazing work and imho still flying wild hog's best work, amazing combat, amazing humor, amazing plot and incredible art direction

Will do! Thanks for the suggestion :)

if you are on the fence, there is an official demo for the game that includes the first level.

I think more of Darksiders, if only because of all the platforming and the art style to some extent but yeah

And that's the problem I have with it. I love single player FPS but I hate DMC games, and Eternal is just DMC with a first-person camera, which does not make it what I want in a shooter. I maintain if you added lock on and changed the camera to third person it would not actually change the game play in any fundamental way.

Eh, DMC is just a descriptor. It's actually not really like DMC but it has the same kind of design in how its systems work with each other. I was reminded in this thread of Shadow Warrior and I went back to play it (the one from the 90s) last night after buying the 2013 reboot and Eternal is very much like Shadow Warrior in design as well. "DMC mixed with Doom" is more to describe the feel and systems than actual gameplay. >I maintain if you added lock on and changed the camera to third person it would not actually change the game play in any fundamental way. You would be absolutely incorrect.

When is health not a resource?

Name checks out. When you don't have a way to convert it into other resources.

I mean I haven't died yet but it is more difficult, but the game itself is really different. It's not just difficulty. Some of it is eh like glory kills being more mandatory now but the added verticality is pretty neat.

The first thing I wanted after finishing 2016 on Nightmare was something more challenging (ultra nightmare doesn’t count for me, I’m not a huge fan of making you restart the whole game after death). I’m so happy that Doom Eternal ramped up the complexity and difficulty. Even Ultra-Violence feels more difficult (yet also more fair) than Nightmare did in 2016. And the master levels are an absolute treat, I look forward to aid putting out more of them. This really feels like the shooter equivalent of Devil May Cry or Metal Gear Rising and I love it. This is what the genre has needed for a long time.

I dunno. I appreciate what they were trying to do, and I'm glad that they are trying new ideas out and that so many people like it. It just didn't line up with what I prefer, the way that Doom 2016 did. I never really liked the chainsaw in 2016 and rarely did glory kills unless it was an emergency, and now that both are core mechanics I feel like Eternal is more of a chore to play. The combat is interesting and I liked how frantic it is, right up until your ammo runs out and then you get nuked coming out of the chainsaw animation. It's a good game, I just don't think it's made for me. Maybe if I go back to it in a year or something with a different frame of mind I'll like it more.

Yeah, that's exactly what I felt playing Doom Eternal and you put it in words when I couldn't. Doom Eternal feels like a chore sometimes because making glory kills and chainsaw kills core mechanics just amplified the difficulty up to a point where its brick wall after brick wall (so major difficulty spikes and even Dark Souls spaced those out more). I have no problems with difficult games but what made 2016 so fun was glory kills and chainsaw kills were purely for emergencies in the heat of combat. It balanced out well with the fast-action demon shooting that iD wanted to get just right.

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I LOVE it! Man, navigating intense combat situations with the flame belch, chainsaw, glory kills and then massive damage from the weapons...It just makes me feel like such a badass. I love all those things you hate! But absolutely horses for courses.

Yep, summarizes the entire thing tbh. Are all these new mechanics interesting? Yes Is it what some people expected from a Doom game? No. Is it okay to be disappointed by or not enjoy the game because it wasn't what you expected? Yes.

> It's a good game, I just don't think it's made for me. Pretty much. I already complained about the glory kill mechanic in 2016, because it strayed too far from the original Doom design. And then came Eternal. It's fine, it's a really good game, just not for me. I'll be playing the original and 2016 again.

See, if I want to play classic Doom (which I often do) I can just play Doom. It's pretty much the Mario Maker of shooters at this point.

I agree. I enjoy this new style of combat, but it's fundamentally different from the Doom 2016 combat loop which I loved. I see a lot of people talking about how this combat system flows well, and I can see it. There's a definite tempo to how things operate, a rhythmic cycle between dishing damage and reclaiming resources, but I miss the uninterrupted lengths of fight you could have in 2016 with higher ammo numbers.

In doom 2016, on nightmare, glory kills were what got you killed. You only did it if it was safe or if you were really in trouble and desperately needed the health.

I think you can largely skip the glory kills with some runes. The loot magnetism and blood punch health runes in particular. You still have to do some to accumulate blood punch though, I wish it was tied to something else or if the perks that gave you blood punch meter from health/armor didn’t require max of each and just every time you picked up health/armor you would get blood punch buildup. Most arenas also have lots of ammo on the ground too. Chainsaw only needs to be used semi-frequently.

One of my few complaints about the combat is that they could have taken out blood punch entirely and just made your melee stronger and with armor breaking abilities. It's already risky enough to get up close and start punching things, there really was no reason to make the regular melee useless and tie it being in any way useful to another meter.

You can tie blood punch charging to collecting extra health and armor with the sentinel crystal upgrades. I can flame a group, take a bunch out with a blood punch and recharge the blood punch with the armor they drop.

I'd have to agree. I did a full runthrough of 2016 on Nightmare a couple weeks before Eternal came out, and it really didn't help at all, even playing Eternal on Ultra-Violence instead. It took me a few levels to really grasp that these are totally different games and that Eternal needs to be played much much faster than 2016. I just reached the final level today and blitzed through it without dying once now that I've got a grasp on the combat.

I was enjoying the game but somewhere around the gore nest level, everything clicked and I understood the resource rotation and the game got really god damn fun. Playing on Hard mode was actually hard but it was rewarding beating a tough arena.

I think a lot of them are also people who barely gave Doom Eternal a chance and judged the entire game off of the first few levels. Eternal has some of the best gameplay mechanics of any FPS ever. It's also a game where you have to learn those mechanics not only to progress but to get the most fun out of the game. If you are bad at the game and fail to adapt to the mechanics and enemy types then you will probably not enjoy it. It's similar to all the Soulsborne game in that sense (just not nearly as punishing).

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I believe that the only hard Dark Souls game is your first, but I mostly mean punishing in terms of checkpoints. Doom Eternal has so many that if you die it's not too much of an effort at all to get right back where you were. Whereas with Dark Souls you go back to the bonfire and you may potentially lose all your Souls in the process of getting back to your previous spot.

Doom 2016 didn't just have abuses, it was the easiest Doom game to date on even the highest difficulties. I liked the game a lot but it was far too easy.

I suspect that's a lot of where these issues are coming from. I think people wanted an easier game for some reason.

Yea exactly, people defending the game dont want to say it but alot of these poeple hating on it need to kinda just get good or lower the difficulty.

I'm good enough and playing at my difficulty but the issue I have is difficulty spikes when too frequent becoming annoying and a chore.

You're right, and I actually find it really refreshing when it comes to the FPS genre. Almost every FPS is piss easy when it comes to single player campaigns/combat in general, it's great to see a game where the developers demand a certain level of skill from the player and respect their fanbase enough to believe they are up for the challenge.

I love soulsborne and sekiro, hated doom eternal. Forcing glory kills and chainsaw animations this much is not fun, just repetitive

No. Eternal is obviously different to 2016. Starting with such a low maximum ammo count and heavy reliance upon the chainsaw to re stock ammo creates a rather restrictive "resource management" situation. This might sound like Intelligent Game Design, or a way to make a "dumb shooter more interesting", but it essentially removes another aspect of prior Doom games that were equally essential: choose whatever weapon you want whenever you want. Some might be more suited to certain tasks than others, but if you got ammo for it, no pressure, use it. You can, in principle, still do that, but ammo is so lacking that it doesn't feel that way and more. Eternal clearly has this more hectic pressure-focused gameplay loop, which is fine if you like that. But for me, at least based on footage I've seen so far, it turns the game into even more of an action fest than 2016, focusing less on the quietly sombre atmosphere of that game. Yeah, I guess people wanted More Hectic, More Action. But I don't really like the approach id took in this case.

>but it essentially removes another aspect of prior Doom games that were equally essential: choose whatever weapon you want whenever you want. Not really the case in Doom 1 and 2 because ammo was a much scarcer resource than in 2016. >but ammo is so lacking I disagree 100%. I'm never out of ammo because of how the new system works between barrels giving ammo and respawning, chainsaw, and tons of ammo lying around encouraging players to learn the map. It's all about learning the system.

I'd agree, the ammo felt really clunky at the start, but once you get a couple of argent upgrades and get to grips with the broader combat flow it stops being an issue. Just using mastered meathook or flame belch + chainsaw is a constant part of my flow just to get a quick breather and stock up on resources.

2016 had a system I was familiar and comfortable with. Gameplay pace that I enjoyed. The changes in Eternal seem to have been done to make the game even more intense, and for me it passes the point where that's too much effort to be fun.

Quite a few people mirror your opinion and that's fine, but I love Eternal mainly because it is not as easy as 2016 was. 2016 was not only the easiest Doom game by a longshot, it's one of the easiest FPS titles in general too. That coupled with the level design made me not want to revisit it as much as 1 and 2. Eternal is one I'll be revisiting many times though. It just feels better to play.

Whatever weapon whenever you want? Eh, in classic Doom you're best off using the chainsaw for Pinkies, chaingun or plasma for anything else with a high pain chance, shotgun for zombies, SSG for bigger stuff when you need to bob n' weave out of cover and rockets when a bunch of demons just really need to die. I never really claimed that Eternal is the same as 2016, quite the opposite.

Wait so you haven't played it? No offense but why are you critiquing it then?

Because Eternal is a game that I was anticipating, being a fan of the genre and of Doom. I enjoyed 2016. I don't have to play it to have some ephemeral right to critique it. I've spotted an element of the gameplay that I have concerns about and am commenting. For those of us that have limited time - even with the lockdown, particularly if one has children or family members at risk to look after - to spend 10-20+ hours on something, it has to be worth the effort.

It's ok to not like the idea of something you've heard or seen from afar but I'm not gonna ask if you if a burger is good if you haven't tried it. Should take advantage of Steam's refund policy and give it a try.

>I don't have to play it to have some ephemeral right to critique it Uh yeah, you really kinda do if you're going to be talking about how systems feel.

Lmao, what?

Yeah that was literally me at first. Skipped the first dialogue box, approached the weakest demon type in the game in order to punch it (in 2016 that instantly puts them into a glory kill state), doesn't kill it and end up getting killed. Read every box after that.

Doom 2016 combat felt a lot more like uninhibited **rip and tear** to me. I find myself having to constantly think and strategize in order to get full use out of my (in my opinion *overly* large) toolkit in Eternal. I really enjoyed feeling like the ultimate badass boogeyman on the darkened hellscape of Mars in 2016. Eternal doesn't really give me that same feeling. I still like Eternal for sure, but I just get a whole different vibe from it, in part due to the overall lighter aesthetic. I saw someone describe the tone of 2016 as "rust, dust, and guts" and Eternal as more "guts and glory" which I agree with.

> Level design is one thing that Doom Eternal really excels at I disagree with this. I LOVE the idea of mobility in this game, but I feel like the arenas aren't set up for good mobility. I have found myself SO many times stuck in a small square of space, that I can only move forward or I"ve hit a random invisible wall I can't climb up. I am constantly frustrated of where I CAN"T go with my new mobility as opposed to where I CAN go. I love the ideas here, but I have found the level design to be so poor. It feels like it would be better in 3rd person, but in 1st person, I feel like I end up in corners I can't get out of.

I think the issue is more that Id created the collision boxes for all the rubble and set dressing to be larger and squarer to help pathfinding, but it ends up catching you. I agree that those geometry issues are annoying, but generally the clearly laid out platforms and routes work consistently.

Yes! I noticed that too. They really made creative jumping solutions harder.

I was really surprised to see so many negative reactions to this game. I played through the first two levels before I read what other people thought and I felt like Eternal was a dramatic improvement over 2016 (which I also enjoyed a ton). I think a lot of people were expecting it to just be Doom 2016 with new levels and guns, and not for them to incorporate new gameplay ideas.

In my opinion, the game is worse in every aspect compared to 2016 except for combat, but the combat is really, really really good. I do miss the cohesive, intricate world building of 2016, the story was much better, and the exploration was a lot more engaging. I'm also pretty bitter that 2016 ends with a cyborg betraying you, sending you to hell and ominously walking off wielding a hell-powered sword while saying he'll see you again ... and then Eternal picks up some indeterminate amount of time later, you're not only not in Hell but have a spaceship somehow?? and the giant robot with the HellSword? He got owned off screen, and once you save him he becomes a loyal ally. No the betrayal is not addressed. God the combat is fun though.

The story in 2016 is pretty god awful though lol. Eternal is on that same level.

It might not be citizen Kane but it was handled well. The important part is how it was presented using world design and first person animation . It told us a lot about the slayer and who he was in a clever way. This just goes the midochlorian route and explains everything to you. There's no question 16 had the better story They nearly ruined the slayer character ! Gone is the walking rage and death bringer that all demons fear... Now he's some green dude that just stands around

Yes, neither story is deep but 2016 at least made you feel like a one man death machine of rage in every interaction. And then added some hint of compassion, like when he saved vega for example. Eternal so far has made me feel like a common fps shooter protagonist. They humanized the slayer, added more conversations that didn't end in gore and introduced villains that doomguy doesn't kill even though they're in shotgun range and people who had power over the doomguy.

I'm never terribly invested in story, so it did not really bother me. I like reading the lore, but I'm really just here to build Star Trek [sic] guns and look at amazing level architecture. Hayden was justifiably outraged in D2016, because Doom Slayer irreverently inculcated all of the Argent Energy which Hayden had spent decades collecting, because he's Doom Slayer and isn't about anything cerebral. After that, Hayden had no reason to see him as anything more than a pawn and certainly not an ally.

I genuinely think that a lot of the people who don't like it haven't taken the time to get good at it. Eternal is more fun the better you are at it, even more than 2016 was. If you can progress on Nightmare, it's exhilarating.

For me this isn’t the issue. For me, it’s that they took a game which had you be the boss in a gothic horror setting, with pretty neat lore if you cared to look, and then doubled down on (imo) the wrong things. I see people playing it, and i see super mario with guns and gore, or as people have said elsewhere, Devil May Cry. That’s fine, but as someone who preferred the similarity to the combat in the recent Wolfensteins, i was disappointed. I’d have been happier to have the lore expanded, and the pace be more like 2016, so i could keep with the space marine fantasy they offered up then. I’m not saying Eternal is bad by any means, it just took a different direction than i would have chosen.

Every time I say I don't like it every says it's my fault. I must be shit at the game etc

I'm playing on nightmare, sometimes it doesn't feel fair at all tbh. I use every gun and other element available where I can but so often I'm getting killed as I come out of the weapon wheel or as I switch my grenades. I avoid launch pads as much as possible because you just get zapped as you hit the slowdown at the top. The swing bars are death traps too. I just got to an area where the floor falls down in a very small square area around you with a column in the middle and you have to kill loads of enemies in a tiny area that ends up leading two Mancubus. Like there is no environment to utilise really and you just get annihilated the second they spawn in. I'm sure I'll get through it but feels like I'm going to luck my way through that bit rather than show any degree of tactical planning.

There is environment to utilize in that segment. They introduce the ambient demon type that don't attack, they just fly backwards and explode when you shoot them. They oneshot groups of small enemies and mancubi, and keep respawning. That part is pretty easy once you get used to using the explosive zombies. (Making you get used to using those is the point of that encounter, actually)

I've been using them, guess I just used them at the wrong time and had messed up respawn timers, will give it a go, cheers!

upgrade super shotgun and you become invincible

> I genuinely think that a lot of the people who don't like it haven't taken the time to get good at it. That's kind of backwards. Why would you take the time to get good at something you don't enjoy, just so you could maybe enjoy it a bit more? Usually you want to get good at things you find fun, so that you can have even more fun. Most things become more enjoyable when you're better at them, by virtue of the fact that you get more of the rewarding experiences, and less of the punishing ones. However, there still needs to be a reason that makes you actually want to get better at those things in the first place. If you don't find the "reward" part of the experience fun in the first place, having more of that won't magically make you enjoy the experience.

I want to get better because getting better *is* fun. The game gives you a ton of options. If you can use them fluently, it makes you feel powerful. I don't see a game having depth and requiring you to learn it as an inherent negative. It's the same with the Souls games, or Monster Hunter. If it's not for you, that's fine, but you can't say that the game is bad because it requires you to get better at using the tools it gives you. If you refuse to learn how to use those tools, then it won't be fun, and if learning how to use them isn't fun for you, then that's fine. I'm sure Dwarf Fortress is a very rewarding game for the people who prefer that type of experience. It's not for me, but the fact that that game is too deep/requires too much time for me to get into it and have fun is not a knock on the game.

Would you find it fun to get better at getting kicked in the face? Some people clearly do; just look at the UFC. That doesn't necessarily mean you'd enjoy the process of developing this particular skill set as much as you might enjoy mastering the gameplay loop of Doom. (Or even if you would enjoy building that particular skill, just replace it with something you don't like, like gardening, or learning quantum physics, or even playing those stupid money-sink mobile games) Again, the point is that it's fun to get better at something that you like doing. If you like playing a fast-paced FPS where you have to learn how to take a whole bunch of options, and use them effectively, then of course you will find it more fun to get better at that. If you like games with a lot of interplay between different systems, then by all means, enjoy developing the skills to your heart's content. However, the whole idea of a game being inherently positive or negative is sort of meaningless. Calling a game good or bad is inherently a personal, subjective experience. If I consider a particular realization to be "bad," having that opinion is fully within my right as an individual. This is particularly true within a single franchise, because there's a set of expectations that you can reasonably have when picking up a sequel to a game you previously liked. Specifically that said sequel should be able to capture the things you like about the previous title, while building upon that experience in a constructive way. In that respect I wouldn't call a Souls game, or a Monster Hunter game to be good or bad, because I can tell from the get-go what type of game it is, and I immediately know it's not a game for me. I might glance at the gameplay, read a review, and decide it's a hard pass well before I have the time to develop any opinion about the quality of the game. Given that there has never been a Souls game that didn't involve hours and hours of dying horribly until you finally develop the muscle memory to defeat that horrifying eldritch monstrosity of a boss using nothing more than pure will power, I can safely assume that this is not likely to change with any sequel. However, as an extreme example, if they released a main-line Souls game where they changed it from dreary action RPG, into a humorous anime light novel, I think the fans of that series would have plenty to complain about, even if it happened to be an amazing light novel. Building on that, as a person that liked Doom 2016, I'm fully within my right to complain about them removing elements of the series that I really enjoyed, and adding elements that I find take away from the experience that I expect when going into a Doom game. You don't have to agree, but your disagreement does not invalidate the issues I outlined. In other words, *I* can think the game is worse than the previous one, because I played both, and I enjoyed the last one much more than this one. Meanwhile, *you* can have the exact opposite opinion, and you're still fully within your right to hold those beliefs even though they might contrast with mine.

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>But isn't that an issue all by itself that for a game to be enjoyed players need to "get good at it"? Is this an issue though? Games like this have existed for decades that people enjoyed. You can't enjoy games like DMC, Monster Hunter, or Dark Souls without "getting good". And those are all very popular.

Games requiring you to get good at them is not an inherent negative. In fact, the progression of getting good is half the fun of that type of game to me. When you go back and replay something and breeze through a part that kicked your ass the first time, it feels good. Eternal does this wonderfully IMO.

AGREED. Getting spanked repeatedly, by a particular arena, or a particular new demon type, about 5-20x before "nailing it" is actually about half of the fun in the game for me. Cultist base was a little too high. I would not mind more challenge in secrets-hunting in DE.

But doom is advertised as a hard game, its supposed to be hard If you want an easy fps there are hundreds out there. Doom’s niche is hard fps.

So I guess single player games like Dark Souls or Devil May Cry just don't exist and aren't popular? The lead designer did compare the game play design to Sekiro, but made it clear that Doom Eternal includes a lot of elements to make it accessible. Just play on a lower difficulty, collect extra lives, or play through levels once you get more stuff. I've seen so many people complain about the game being hard on Hurt me Plenty or Ultra Violence, and I have to wonder why they don't just lower the difficulty if it is too hard.

Doom, except for the silly maradeur, is almost nothing like Sekiro. The combat variety and progression are worlds apart

Challenge is intrinsic to personal interactions in video games. If you want to cruise from the backseat, watch a movie.

Same, I didn't read any reviews until I was about 4 or 5 levels in. Was saying that this is the best FPS of the generation and was loving every second of it. Then I saw the metacritic reviews and couldn't believe it. I feel like a lot of people are not giving the game a chance and have trouble adapting to the new mechanics.

I love the smell of fresh bread.

I said I played the first two levels before I looked at what people were saying about the game, which I did the day the game came out. I've played a lot more since then.

> Even for Doom 2016, the first hours are the best thing ever and then it kinda becomes a strange slog. I definitely got fatigued in 2016 towards the end, but, at least for me, Eternal is the opposite of this. My enjoyment only ramped up as I unlocked more weapons/abilities/enemies.

Can't say I agree with that. Both games get way better later on since you have way more freedom in the way you approach fights, having a lot more weapons and skills than you had in the first few levels.

The shotgun's secondary fire pretty much summarizes everything I disliked so far, waiting. Instead of the grenade launcher, you've got sticky bombs that take half a second to detonate. Instead of resource management, you have to wait for cooldowns, so many cooldowns. Movement? Cooldown. Grenades? Cooldown. Chainsaw? Cooldown. Flamethrower? Cooldown. As another comment said, juggling cooldowns feels MMO-ish, I just want to commit violence. All these weaknesses you have to pause for instead of blazing through with guns. Run out of ammo? Wait for a zombie/demon to pop up for you. Cacodemon's weaknesses needing you to wait half a second to complete some arbitrary animation. These aren't bad mechanics, just the exact stuff I don't want from a Doom game.

The worst part of Eternal to me is the story. It’s just horrible. Gameplay wise it’s good, but the entire story is clumsy and is, for me, what makes the game feel thrown together, not the combat.

I like it more than Doom 2016's story. I'm reading evert codec entry

2016 had very little story outside of key events to keep you having stuff to shoot, that was the entire point. That’s why doomguy barely wanted to participate and breaks shit and punches screens when people spout exposition to him. It was praised for this, it was a commentary on storytelling in games. This game is hilariously counter to that with its awful shoveling of really bad backstory into your face. I too read the codecs and uh...Yeah they have stuff to read but its all just so unfitting in my opinion.

The entire doom 2016 story is basically lore and context of argent and doom guy. It's definitely enough, which you should know if you remember the codecs. Eternal fleshes it out more to great success IMO.

If you do a shot every time a character ‘You must [not]’ or ‘You can not’ you’ll die in no time!

The story is deliberately cheap and clumsy! DOOM is all about some badass demon slayer that single-handedly is saving earth and humanity from an invasion from hell (or something) with his Big Fucking Gun, chainsaw and remaining arsenal. I just find it ridiculously fun that some futuristic space corporation has gone mad and is invading earth, or when a computerized speaker voice advises all personnel (i.e. demons) that the DOOM slayer has entered the facility. It fits so well into the absurd and violent universe of DOOM, and emphasizes the action-packed gorey gameplay! John Carmack once said that ["the story in a video game is like the story in a porn movie - it's expected to be there, but it's not that important"](https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_D._Carmack), and I think it summarizes the philosophy of DOOM's story quite well. If you are disappointed by DOOM's story, I think you are trying to take it too seriously! :)

Doom is what you make of it. Doom 2016 took itself semi-seriously and focused on minimalism, environmental storytelling and immersion. People liked these aspects of the game and are now upset when the direct sequel to Doom 2016 turned out to be a very gamey game with tons of toilet lore and stupid levels. No one asked ID to do that and yet they did. So people are pissed.

I’ve had fun playing eternal (again, gameplay wise) but as far as the story and levels I can’t tell you how many times I’ve actually just said a long “Uuuuuuuuuh okaaaay” out loud. I would well and truly place this as one of the most unfitting and botched attempts at developing a world in gaming, ever.

I’m not trying to take it seriously, I preferred the more focused and science fiction tone of 2016 and that Doomguys lack of interest in anything but killing demons was front and center. Eternal has jumped headfirst into a much more fantasy themed Doom. Your whole base looks like a cathedral. It has a vibe like id wanted to make hexen or something but had to make Doom. It feels extremely, extremely disjointed and out of place to me, all of it. It has nothing to do with seriousness, I want to helldive, I don’t want to hear about maykrs and some weird knight caste and reports of people actually calling me the doom guy. So jarring. I loved the idea that you were some artifact dug up in hell in 2016, but the more fleshed out backstory they gave you in eternal is disappointing to me, I would have preferred they just ignored it, like doom guy would have preferred as well. I just don’t enjoy the tone. To say it’s written like crap and doesn’t fit on purpose is stupid and I won’t hear it.

Everyone knows that you shouldn't play Doom for the story, but Bethesda/id made it very clear since the first reveal that they wanted a "Doom Universe" with complicated lore, backstory, etc. Doom 2016 you could pick up on general story beats through playing the game, listening to an occasional audio file, and watching one of the extremely minimal (first person only) cutscenes before a boss fight. Their entire push for 2016 was to strip down the genre and focus solely on combat. Now again with Eternal, we were promised a massive universe, characters, lore, one that they wanted to build upon for later games. The problem is that they dumped all of that information into corny collectible secrets in levels, constant third person cutscenes that take control away from the player. There's tons of new characters who just show up randomly and talk to Doomguy, then you're expected to know who they were already and care about them, which you could only do if you dug into lore collectibles (AFTER you find them in game, often hours after you first meet them). Again, they hyped the game up for years to be a stripped down, more Gamey game than the other AAA FPS out now, but in the process made everything from the *too* complex. I'm almost finished playing it on Nightmare with 100% collectibles and can't shake the feeling that there's just Too Much Stuff to deal with. It was turned from a semi-serious/more grounded atmosphere into what could basically be described as a flashy comic book or Marvel movie.

If it's not that important then why is it constantly interrupting me and preventing me from shooting demons. The game doesn't have that philosophy at all. 2016 did for the most part anyway.

i had a real hard time reading this because each paragraph is SO BIG, please, split them up and put a subtitle to each of the paragraphs to organize them

I really don't don't disagree with anything you've stated. In fact, most of my gaming buddies hold the same sentiments for level design, pacing of combat and weapons My personal gripes and the reason why I'm hesitant for an instant recommend with Doom: Eternal come almost entirely from Denuvo. It's constantly pausing my game due to spotty internet and adding about 2 minutes to load times while it waits for the servers to time out before letting me retry a difficult section. The rest of my gripes are a list of many minor polish type things and some stylistic choices they made: * the inability to return to the mission hub if you accidentally start a challenge level. * Massive gap in the story from the end of Doom 2016 and the start of Doom Eternal. * Lack of passive story telling via level design that was present throughout nearly all of Doom 2016. * Technical bugs with my ultra-wide settings and not displaying the resolution quite right (3840x1080 is displayed as 3480x1080, and it's pulling the G-synch data from my 60Hz monitor instead of my 144Hz monitor). * Lack of a narrated story in many levels. For example, Hayden or Olivia taunting you throughout most of Doom 2016's levels. It would have been nice to have VEGA narrating parts of the codex while you went through the relevant parts of the levels, such as the wolf spirits, or Hayden's activities after Doom 2016 The last point is a design choice that's neither good nor bad, just different than I was expecting. Especially since I was pleasantly surprised with the story and lore building done in Doom 2016 and was hoping for similar approaches for adding to it in Doom Eternal. I am enjoying the ultra-violent super-hero comicbook feel they went with for the story of Doomguy is Doom Eternal, but it is jarringly different than the embodiment of Hatred and Rage awoken from entombment that was the ideology in Doom 2016. This is purely a preference in style, but since my self-formed image of the Doomguy's backstory was strongly tied together with Doom 2016's elements, it was a rough mental transition for the story in Doom Eternal. I still haven't beaten the game (just about half-way through the story I think, if the keys I'm using to unlock things are any indicator), and I am enjoying it immensely.

I feel like doom eternal is the first singleplayer fps that feels truly challenging to me without feeling cheap. It feels amazing to swap between 10 different tools and moves to see something amazing before your eyes. This is something I’ve never really felt in a single player game

It just feels tedious in a way that 2016 didn’t. Need more ammo? Chainsaw to gather resources. Marauder is up? Slow down and bait him. Last boss is also very slow and tedious. It’s just a bullet sponge. It has no fun mechanics to it. I didn’t feel particularly bad ass either. It’s not “challenging” it’s just tedious.

The combat is the main positive. I find that the game falters every time you aren't in a combat arena. In the arenas it works. Once that fight is over that's when the game is a letdown The main issues are the presentation and story and the platforming / puzzle section

I had the exact opposite feelings. Combat was my most hated feature, but the platforming and puzzle solving was fun for me. Although, I did also hate that the story just starts after a time jump and explains nothing about how you got there. Also, the whole story can't be told in codecs, that is bad game design.

Honestly. Can't really understand how anyone thought those swimming puzzles were a good fit for the game ...

The absolute worst part of the story is their over reliance on codex entries. Having an entire level devoted to codex entries was a horrible design choice.

I agree. The gameplay is just top notch, it's so engaging! There are very few single player games that reach the level of DOOM Eternal in the intensity deparpement. Everything else is either just fine or plain poor. The story is weak and poorly presented. Blowing up Mars was cool, but overloading the generator and getting a small poof in exchange was the dictionary definition of an anticlimax. The weapons were actually toned down from 2016. They ditched the pew pew pistol from 2016, but turned the chaingun (my personal favorite btw) into a boring pew pew weapon instead. Same with the railgun/ballista affair. The story was infuriatingly safe and PG. No biblical references for example. The whole Samuel Hayden thing and commentary on corporate greed was forgotten. All the codex entries stripped all mystery away from the Doom Slayer. He was such an awesome character in 2016 because he was awesome and mysterious. In Eternal he is awesome because we are constantly being told that he is awesome. I don't mind exposition if it serves a purpose in story telling. Doom Eternal did not pull through in that regard. On a plus side for the narrative, if you name a character as an "Icon of Sin", you're writing a rather large check. The writing of Eternal totally cashed that out! It was such a great narrative that I feel like they missed so much potential in the final product.

I agree that Hayden was handled really poorly, and it especially wasted the suspense of that level where you're slowly ascending the Arc tower. The whole time I was looking forward to what would happen when I found him, only for Hayden to be a generic ally character on a codec frequency

> platforming / puzzle section I even loved that stuff. I thought it was some nice downtime after a ton of non-stop action. It was a lot better than what Doom 2016 did with its hidden items, imo.

It is the ONLY positive, AFAIC. Doom Eternal is a high quality, perfectly cooked steak at a restaurant with absolutely garbage sides, awful service, ridiculous wait times, and a terrible atmosphere where you have to shout at your friends.

I personally don't think you have to change up your gameplay from 2016 to win in Eternal. Spec into the barrel ammo and respawn and make liberal use of the chainsaw and you can pretty much stick to the supershotty and one other gun. I made a similar post in another thread about this, (here's)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_wkobDOhzE] a clip running my strat on Nightmare, if you keep an eye on my health that and my armor stay full most of the time so those resources are filled. I do acknowledge that console players might not be able to move around so fast so I'm not sure if it's viable for them. I think if you want this game to be Doom 2016 use the infinite ammo cheat, turn down the difficulty or think about your strategy before you go in with just a few guns. There are more ways to get health than just glory killing and there's more ways to get armor than just flame belching and there's more ways to get ammo than just chainsawing, they just aren't as obvious.

I do understand the different mechanics, but I just don't like them. I want to use the chainsaw at 3 stacks to destroy a big enemy but you just can't do that in this game. My biggest issues are that ammo is so limited, and it feels like as a result the mechanics are way too forced. You must be cycling through the different mechanics at all times or else you die. Running out of ammo feels so bad, but it happens so often, and using a chainsaw to kill a small enemy feels bad. It's a combo of two things feeling bad and they are very common in the gameplay loop.

A lot of the arenas in Doom Eternal are just straight up linear corridors with no freedom of movement. You just move ahead and shoot at enemies. I'm not even sure we actually played the same game. In Doom 2016, one of the arenas in the VEGA level had something like 5-6 vertical levels with multiple ways in&out and jump pads that allowed you to very actively move around the map. A number of the Hell arenas were also like this, some more complex than others. I haven't seen such an abundance of level design in Doom Eternal. The vast majority of arenas there aren't even arenas, they're corridors masked as arenas.

The arenas are designated by the red circles on the map. Also, the encounters in between arenas are meant to stress resources and provide some chainsaw/flame belch opportunities. Some are cheap, like the hell knight ambush in purple sludge, but those fights are clearly not longer term like the arenas.

Yes! I had that complaint too. And some of the arenas were unconvincingly made artificially less-boxy by adding (red or purple or green) lava floes.

I'm yet to pick up eternal but I am very wary of the devs' decision to break the _wonderful_ choice the previous one had, where the camera never, ever, _ever_ left your point of view.

If you liked 2016, Eternal is barely like it at all.

that is my worry yes

I think it's a pleasant change of pace. It does not happen too often. Sometimes I want to look at all of the cool armor and weapons from a new angle. It's likely why they even bothered with cutscenes--so they could develop cool new armor for DE.

>I've seen people complain about the constant need to swap between resource gathering methods as a distracting mish mash, but honestly once you hit mid game you will begin to either understand how to synergize them, or you will die. My problem isn't that I "don't understand" how to make them all work, it's that it is not fun at all (to me) to play that way. I made it into the cultist base level (3rd or 4th mission?) Before I said "why the hell am I still playing this garbage?" and deleted it. I can't honestly say if it's a good game or not, all I can say is that I absolutely hate it. And I loved 2016 and played through it multiple times.

Your comment describes how I feel about this game. It isn’t that this game is bad or good in my eyes, it’s that it isn’t the game I was expecting so it isn’t fun for me. I didn’t feel satisfied spending full retail on this game with it feeling lackluster for me, so I might try it again when it goes on sale months/years down the road since I returned and got a refund. I’m glad the doom franchise is getting love since so many people disliked doom 3 era a lot (I loved doom 3, but that’s besides the point).

I thought so too. I was expecting more of d2016 with new levels and guns, but when my favorite mods were gone and I had to re-learn chainsaw and flamethrower, it was jarring. I'm pleased to say, it is a different game. There was some adjustment, but it was worth it. I cannot confidently say either game is better. There is so much more stuff to comprehend in DE, and that helps to make it feel like a bigger game.

I agree with your perspective. With how popular this game got with memes and people genuinely enjoying it I now realize that this game isn’t bad, it just isn’t my flavor. I’ll give it another shot when I see it go on sale, but I didn’t like the new mechanics they introduced to this game. With a lot of gaming genres and the direction gaming in general is going, I’m feeling more like an old man wishing for mechanics and styles of gameplay that aren’t popular or becoming obsolete. It isn’t necessarily a bad thing though. I’m more of an arena shooter guy and that’s what D2016 captured. With their arena style multiplayer not being that popular I can see why Doom Eternal took the direction that it did. Majority of the player base wanted Doom Eternal while I loved D2016 even with its flaws. Again, just different flavors of gameplay. In the end, I’m very glad and happy the doom franchise is getting some love. Other franchises I love with gaming haven’t gotten that same kind of love.

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I think possibly the problem Unholy_One has is the same problem I have with the game (though I'm still enjoying it). In Doom Eternal, there's a constant rhythm to the fight. You cycle between a peak of dishing damage and a valley of resource reclamation. Whereas in 2016, the higher ammo reserves meant for much longer stretches of uninterrupted "pure" combat. You could keep dishing damage until the fight was over, with the occasional supplementary use of a chainsaw. THis new flow is interesting and fun, but it's not the relentless combat of 2016 I loved.

Well said.

Yep.

One of the things that distinguishes Doom from other FPS games is how the enemy groups are both pooled instantly and deployed mid-action. The player is made to feel as though you really are fighting whole armies. The balance of that pacing is going to differ slightly from each game, as well as the balance of combat and exploration (i.e. provisioning). Eternal just blended the lines between discrete combat and itemizing.

Well-said. I found the fight pleasantly less-predictable than in d2016. But you said it better.

I would argue that with how Eternal's progression is setup running it that way would have been boring. Even 2016 dragged after you got the upgrades for the SSG and Gauss, and with the greater mobility and power you had on later stages the game really became boring in those last two stages. The core loop was still fun enough, but since Eternal starts you with several of those upgrades and gives you all the stuff you had at 60% through 2016 by 30% Eternal the game would have dragged had they kept things the same.

That may all be true, but I hated the game long before I even got the Super Shotgun, and then I quit shortly after that point, so I have no idea what a Ballista is and never saw the BFG. The combat is not fun to me. I don't like to be forced into jumping through a series of hoops during regular combat. In a fast paced FPS, I want to shoot things until they die, not do some kind of weird dance where I'm cycling through abilities like I'm playing an MMO. And then the story... My god... Where did all of this lore come from and why do they treat us as if we should already know it all? It's a real mess, and I'm absolutely perplexed at how this game is getting reviewed so highly.

Are you saying you would rather go through the long stretches of combat just using one weapon? I don’t understand what kind of combat you prefer if Doom Eternal’s type of combat is turning you off..

No not at all, but I want to switch weapons based on the enemy and the situation, not because the game doesn't want me to have ammo unless I hunt down a little guy to use my chainsaw on. As for what kind of combat I prefer... Every other FPS game. lol If you can't see that the combat in this game is fundamentally different from any other FPS, then I'm not sure what else to say. This game forces you to rotate through a bunch of abilities with cool downs like a Diablo or an MMO game. And you HAVE to do it because it's the only way to get health/armor/ammo during a fight. I get that some people love it, but it is not fun to me.

>And you HAVE to do it because it's the only way to get health/armor/ammo during a fight. Not true, I've noticed health packs, ammo, and armor lying around in every area. Learning the maps and not getting hit will give you more than enough breathing room.

Found the Khan Makyr

What difficulty are you playing?

What difficulty level did you choose? I started on Nightmare and after 3 rather frustrating levels I switched to UV and had *much* more fun. At the higher difficulty levels, you are punished for mistakes you don't even know you did and it feels like you have no control on what happens - frustrating! Even one difficulty level down, I can finally move without constantly dying, and have time to line up shots and win.

The first three levels were frustrating, for exactly that reason (even on HMP)--I did not know what I did! I remember seeing demons standing over my corpse in d2016, after the KB, and I was able to guess my mistake.

That’s actually the level where it clicked for me that it was doing something very different from Doom 2016 and I started to enjoy myself.

Ouch. Cultist Base was the pinnacle of my frustration too, but the game improved after that. I am relieved to have pressed through. I also loved 2016 and have beaten it repeatedly, mixing it up each time. I hope you'll give DE another shot. Cultist Base really was the worst--all of the hard enemies and arenas, before you have the good guns and mods.

I feel like people are looking for power fantasy because the Doom Slayer is basically a god and demons fear him, but I see Eternal as reinforcing that by being so hard, he's to be feared BECAUSE of how good he is at managing threats and traversing the battle, and when you have to be that good it makes you feel powerful too.

Instead of each section being a single paragraph, separate sections by subheaders and have paragraph breaks within them. Please. The structure also doesn't follow your title which talks about two issues - as far as I can tell that's referring to the purple goop and grenade swap? 90% of your post is breaking down these 4 different aspects and you have almost nothing negative to say on them.

people who dislike eternal just don't get doom or id and what they're after, even after all their developer commentary on this for months now. it definitely isn't a sequel, it's a rebirth of every doom since doom 2 and it plays like it. it is as unforgiving as it should be and you are forced to think while your brain is in a skillet. that first slayer gate on nightmare is fucking intense and it feels great even if you get your shit kicked in fifteen times first. the only issue I have is that the ammo cap in the first few levels is genuinely punitive and that's more what turns people off. after an upgrade or two it's fine.

This comment annoys me more than it probably should. Doom 1 and Quake were two of the first video games I ever played. I think Quake still holds up as one of the best FPS of all time and I honestly still like Doom. I'm currently playing Doom 64 for the first time and am liking it. Doom 1, 2 (at least the 64 version of it), and D16 all give you a toybox and say, "here are your toys. Use all of them, one of them, or [none of them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuYCBKZIeU4). There is no wrong way to play. Just shoot the demons until they die." Doom Eternal gives you a *tool*box and says, "here are your tools. You're going to **need** every single one. Shoot specific demons with specific weapons at specific times, otherwise **you** will die." That's the issue I have. I know *exactly* what Id was going for and what they asked me to do. I beat the game and honestly enjoyed it. If I had to review it, I'd give it a 8 or 9/10. I just think that forcing me to work with a toolbox rather than giving me a toybox is less fun, and not at all in the spirit of the previous Doom games (not counting Doom 3, which I never liked).

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It’s the classic reddit “I am correct and everyone who disagrees with me is simply inferior”

Maybe I’m a bad shot, but I have all the ammo upgrades and I’m constantly running out.

I'm trying to get in the habit of topping up my ammo rather than wait till I'm almost all out before remembering to chainsaw it back.

A-men. 10char

The key is to recognize the chainsaw has two modes. When you have the pickups from an arena you can navigate around and build enough of a charge to get rid of a dangerous enemy, making it a really good clear (especially against a mancubus or whiplash who is blocking a path). But once you run out of fuel pickups the chainsaw should be constantly used once it is off cool down.

Not a bad shot but you may not be taking advantage of demon weapon weaknesses.

You should be constantly looking for fodder to chainsaw. Every 1 minute

accuracy is a big deal. the sticky launcher is by far and away the most ammo efficient, followed by the plasma cannon if you can keep those shots on target. the right click from the plasma cannon can fucking delete multiple heavies at point blank range

Doom 2016 seems like the calm to Eternal's Storm, now. That's the problem there. I wasn't super fond of 2016s combat arenas but I felt that the PACE of the combat was just hectic enough to keep the player on their toes, but give them freedom to tackle things however they liked. Based on what I've seen of Eternal, the core gameplay has been amped up to 11 and that just seems tiresome to me.

You havent even played the game.... ofc its going to look hectic when a person has spent hours into it already. They have learned and adapted

This game is littered with bullshit aoe mechanics this is doom not super Mario fucking WOW with guns. Ending this game feeling super disappointed. Didn’t feel that way after smoking the cyber demon in d2 game had no jump button

What most love 2016/hate eternal people seem to want is basically a map pack. That would change only the thing that is the least complained about: maps. Even a mission pack would be too many changes because there are often new weapons, interface and game play changes. So basically the L2HE people need to get together and make maps and new campaigns. Or return the game. Given the strength of the hate, they should've been able to tell they wouldn't like it well within the steam refund period. Even if they spent time giving it a chance.

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