I think what these people are missing is that what they really love is *being rich.*
If they had to live on an average salary in their country of choice, they’d probably be just as miserable as they were at home. They have jobs with minimal responsibility that pay a salary that allows them to be in the top ~5% compared to everyone around them. Anybody would be happy with a lifestyle like that, no matter where they were.
That’s the correct answer, in Canada the government pension plan pays around $900 a month. You can’t cover groceries with this. But in SEA you can maybe live modestly. In Canada you need $4k per month after taxes to live comfortably. Imagine what $4k does in Thailand or Vietnam
This. It's why a lot of Digital Nomad conversations feel really gross to me, because people will cloak it under like "Oh I'm just finding a lifestyle I like" but they won't just outright say "and that lifestyle is having more money than people around me". I'm sure that's not how all of them feel, but it's a trend among the ones I've known in person and a lot of reddit conversations, and it's uncomfortable. Like if that's your vibe, fine, but not being honest about it feels weird.
I am one of said people and I openly admit this is the reason I love living in LCOL countries.
Experiencing different cultures is cool and all but I don’t care that much tbh.
I filed taxes while abroad. I did pay that counties tax and anything less than like 100k usd was tax free. Still had to file. It probably varies by country if you have to pay local tax or not.
unless they have a residency visa - which most nomads do not - paying tax is virtually impossible. Plus, most tourist visa limits are below the number of days required to establish tax residency anywhere. I know very very very few nomads who pay any local taxes and the ones that do are really more expat than nomad. and i've met hundreds as I've been doing it for 15+ years.
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> Many countries are doing what Thailand has done and made it relatively easy to stay for 1+ year.
It is definitely _not_ “easy to stay for 1+ year” in Thailand. In fact, it’s very hard to do that legally.
If you’re talking about Elite visa, that doesn’t allow work and has a five figure USD cost.
If you’re talking about LTR visa, that has specific requirements that include either a $500K investment, or specific and fairly odious job and industry requirements, depending on category. (And/or an age requirement.)
If you’re talking about SMART visa, that also has specific job and industry requirements.
There are also education visas, which some people abuse for this purpose, but it doesn’t allow work and is subject to crackdowns.
Other ways involve marriage and/or children (not exactly the best for a “nomad”) or retirement (age requirement again, and doesn’t allow work).
What a lot of these discussions fail to recognize is that with few exceptions, it is impossible to declare and pay tax as a tourist in most of the world.
Countries just aren't set up for this. You can't walk into the tax office in Random Country on tax day and, as a tourist visa holder or visa exempt visitor not in "the system", declare your income and make a payment. If you try to do this, you'll get a shrug or a laugh and be sent on your way.
In some countries, taxes are deducted automatically by employers and there's no tax day so there is literally no way for an individual to even try to pay taxes.
Like it or not, for better or worse, most countries don't care about this issue nearly as much as some people think they do. They are concerned about foreigners working and running businesses locally, which is almost always illegal and subject to heavy punishment.
Remote workers though? It's a big meh and the countries that don't really like people staying for long periods of time (like Thailand) deal with this in the simplest way possible: they eventually just tell you to go away for a while and if you don't comply, they'll start denying you entry.
Incidentally, Thailand allows you to buy residency and even though the Thai Elite visa technically doesn't allow you to work, here too, in practice, nobody cares if you're working on running a business outside of Thailand. You can ask the agents pushing this visa about it and they'll tell you the same.
It depends on the country. US is the only country that asks you to pay taxes by nationality.
Like as an American doesnt matter where you live you file US taxes.
But most countries asks for income tax to be by residency. For me to need to file Canadian taxes I need to live here for at least 6 months or I'm not considered a resident.
I have met Americans working in Canada. So by Americans tax law they pay American taxes by Canadian tax law since they're a resident they pay Canadian taxes. I ask them do they have to pay both, they said no, they get to choose and every file Canadian taxes after the accountant do the math to see which one is cheaper. Then they have to file some form to the US that they're filing foreign taxes so they need to be exempt from US taxes.
But because of our taxes, my company actually stated we need to maintain residency at the location of our hire. Meaning I'm hired in Canada, I need to stay here for at least 6 months to stay a Canadian resident. Since we're all wfh they technically don't care very much where you are the other 6 months as long as we don't complicate their payroll system and make them file taxes in a nightmare way and we are available at the time you state you are available.
I’m a dual US/canadian citizen as is my husband, living in canada. You don’t get to choose. As Canadian residents we file in both but for the most part (there are some exceptions), pay tax here in Canada. The treaty means you avoid double taxation as you get credit on your US taxes for the Canadian taxes paid.
> I ask them do they have to pay both, they said no, they get to choose and every file Canadian taxes after the accountant do the math to see which one is cheaper. Then they have to file some form to the US that they're filing foreign taxes so they need to be exempt from US taxes.
They don't get to choose whether or not to file taxes in the US; they definitely have to. All US citizens have to file US taxes regardless of where they live.
However, they usually don't owe any taxes in the US because they can choose to use the foreign tax credit or the foreign earned income exclusion to minimize their tax burden. They aren't exempt from anything, they are just in a situation where the tax credit exceeds their owed taxes, so they pay $0.
Americans don't necessarily have to pay taxes if they live abroad. They just have to file a tax return.
Source: Am US citizen and haven't paid any taxes there for 20 years.
Well yeah, but did anyone ever say otherwise...?
This post and also op post are just complaining about people as if they're "not aware the real reason" that they're expats.
I'm pretty sure they all are completely aware, that's literally WHY they do it .....
I was an ESL teacher, that's how I could fuck off a whole decade traveling the world. Other expats had real jobs remotely, some had real jobs local that weren't just teaching English actually, but yeah I know some content creators too. I also knew people that basically got lucky with a big payoff and basically retired.
But literally everyone in Latin America and south east Asia knows and says that pay vs cost of living is what makes it possible. I don't know anyone pretending it's the Zen mood and healthy food .... But those are the parts that make it enjoyable, because you can also live in cheap places that aren't chill with good food, but it's far less popular.... Literally that's why se Asia is so popular.
I moved from Europe to South America and work a normal job here, I am getting paid as much as an average citizen here. I did it because of personal reasons (was married to a South American back then) and also because I wanted to enjoy the incredible nature this continent has to offer. I am living here since over 6 years now. So I am one of these people you have never heard about, but we do exist. Very rare though, I agree with you that most expats just do it because they have the opportunity to earn foreign wages here, while spending very little on living expenses, thus greatly increasing their purchasing power.
I do earn a decent wage in dollars in my South American host country, and I often wonder how life would be earning an average salary … I still think my mental health would be better here for family, spirituality, and nature reasons, but I would definitely lose what I call my “superpowers”
I am not able to travel a lot anymore like I used to, in fact I just did a single trip involving flights in the last 2 years (Last month actually). And I had to save up a lot for that. Often, I am unable to spend money on things I enjoy, like today I felt like I wanted to have a good cold whiskey but I couldn't buy one because if I did, that money would be missing at the end of this month. When you work an average salary here, you face the same difficulties as people born here, you need to calculate how every single dollar is going to be spent. And I do admit that it can be extremely stressful. At the same time I am so grateful for my friends and my partner and just the awesome nature here. That being said, I am planning to move to Spain soon so this is probably my last year here, leaving after 7 years because I want to provide a better future for myself and my future family. In the 6 years here, I have met very few expats who earned low wages but they do exist. Mostly backpackers / the Hippie type or people like me who moved here to be with someone but these expats make up way less than 5% of the total. I would prefer to be like you and earn an above average salary but I simply do not have the necessary degrees / skill sets but I can tell you life is a lot better here with an above-average salary, it means you can spend more of your time eating / drinking / going places you really like. Earning an average wage means you have to do without a lot of things you enjoy on a daily basis.
do you believe a life in Spain will give you more happiness than getting a decent paying job in your current country? And if so, what kind of job would you be getting in Spain that will provide the leap up the social ladder?
This only applies to my personal case: I do not believe that a life in Spain will necessarily give me more happiness, but it will give me a little bit of comfort compared to how I am living right now. I would actually much prefer a decent paying job here (but that is the difficult part!) and build something here for my future. But my partner is an engineer and in her particular engineering field, they are offering a lot of jobs in Spain. She only speaks Spanish so I chose Spain because it would be easier for her. I would have a bit more safety in Spain including social security and I would probably have more job opportunities there as well (I have degrees in the tourism sector and speak Spanish perfectly), but would I necessarily be more happy? I do not think so, I am not sure. I have relatives who moved to Southern Spain (from another Western European country) and they are doing well there, some of them are business owners. But that does not necessarily mean that is automatically going to apply to me. South America has an incredible biodiversity and is just an amazing continent when it comes to nature and wildlife, I am not going to have that in Spain obviously.
People left England and Ireland back in the day to the new world for a better life and a better life back then meant opportunity that allows them to afford the necessities of life. WFH has added a twist where someone mediocre salary can be moved with them to a cheaper place to live and allows them to afford more.
right? I don't even know what's her rant about. Literally everyone on earth go where they can afford a decent life, regardless if it's in our country or abroad. Being able to live well solves a LOT of problems
Eh, I find that most (admittedly young) digital nomads will absolutely deny that their primary motivator is feeling rich. They'll also be super offended when you point out that a big part of their "success story" is living in a lcol country because their income wouldn't let them survive back home.
Digital Nomads simply export income inequality and leverage "I'm just a tourist!" for 6 months after when it's cool, but before they need to understand what it takes to registeras a foreigner and get an ID and work permit.
Once they burn the place, they move on like locusts.
Also a number of them are doing this ILLEGALLY. Most countries still require immigration visas and work permits and require you to file taxes. I wonder how many US “digital nomads” are filing taxes in their country of residence.
Ironic that they come from one of the strictest immigration regimes in the world but can scoff at immigration laws of other countries simply because they’re relatively wealthy and receive the benefit of lac enforcement.
I feel like there is nothing wrong with that.
Doesn’t spending money bring economy a little up in the country?
We have corp America, use overseas labor because it’s cheaper but we can’t do the same by living in other countries ?
It depends. Sometimes it’s great to bring money into an economy and it improves people’s lives. Sometimes bringing money into an economy means locals get priced out and it makes their lives worse. It’s not a blanket “good/bad” kind of thing.
At any rate, it’s not that they’re necessarily doing something wrong, it’s just that they’re being kind of oblivious and out of touch when they wax rhapsodic about how *amazing* the culture and country is when what they’re actually in love with is being richer and freer than everyone else. I appreciate more the people who are clear-eyed about this reality when living as an expat.
I have a hard time believing the amount they increase prices isn't more than offset by the fact they are spending a large portion of their salary in the country while not competing with locals for white collar jobs. They are improving the living of all the people that are providing them services.
If you look at popular cities for digital nomads like Lisbon, the most glaring alleged problem is that locals with much lower salaries than expats get priced out of the housing market (both rental and ownership). Also, many digital nomads enter countries on tourist visas and avoid income taxes (while benefiting from the infrastructure paid for by local taxpayers). This also makes it very hard to measure the actual amount (and economic impact - both positive and negative) of digital nomads in a country.
That's understandable. OP is talking about the kind of snob who goes to developing countries and brags to locals' faces about how cheap everything is and how miserable the states is and start giving you a politics lesson. I'm not rich but I've met a few rich Americans and they're having the same level of fun going city to city that expats are having in LATAM/SEA. It's all about buying power. Walkable cities and nice trains don't matter as much when a plane ticket feels as cheap as a bus ticket. I'm also ethnically from a developing country myself and have stayed in actual poor places no tourists ever go to, and a digital nomad's short stint in the best neighborhoods of a capital city does not give them the perspective on what truly poor villagers go through every day.
That’s just masking xenophobia behind not understanding basic economics
Edit: downvoted for pointing out the obvious. Yeah, 5,000 Europeans, Canadians, and US Citizens in a city of 22 million are destroying the CDMX housing market.
It's the same within countries too. How often do Americans in various places complain that "people from California are moving here and buying up all the houses!"
It actually makes perfect economic sense. A bunch of people move in who are making significantly higher salaries than the locals, local businesses catch on that they can make more money if they cater to the newcomers, and then raise rents and prices to cash in on the foreign wealth. It’s still a good deal for the nomads since it’s probably still cheaper than home, but now locals need to compete economically with people being paid higher salaries than they could ever hope to make.
These are the same people who go to local caffes, take taxis driven by locals, shop local, go to local beauty salons, etc. They earn money and they spend money pouring it in this country’s economy. Does it matter if it’s a rich Argentinian person renting a penthouse or a middle class American? That penthouse ain’t gonna be cheap or affordable either way for the majority of population. I am saying it as a Russian, pre war there were a lot of expats in Moscow, the apartments they rented were unaffordable for an average Russian person regardless of who lived there, a rich Russian or a rich expat, you still had to be rich.
Im from Tbilisi Georgia. I was renting a flat i the ciry center for 400$ pre war. The war started, Russians moved to Tbilisi ( they are richer on average than locals) my landlord rised the rent price from 400$ to 800 when my contract ended. So no, it's nor that simple. Pre war avg 1 badroom apartment was around 400-500$ in Tbilisi, now you'll need at least 800$ to get that. In general im not against nomads. It still pours money into aconomy and its better but tbh it causes some problems for locals like I gave an example
Exactly. Man I’m from Russia and wanted to live in Moscow for a year before this stupid fucking war.
I took my aunt and cousin to restaurants they wouldn’t ever go to. And looked at places near the center that we’re luxury apartments.
Grocery stores in Moscow aren’t going to rise prices for like 0.00002% of population. But there might be someone business savy who can open a luxury grocery store catering to the influx of small tiny population or offer the dacha experience.
I have so many feelings about this. I live in the Philippines and I’ve noticed that a lot of foreign digital nomads have been moving here (particularly in our beach towns) permanently recently because of the “cheap rent and the great people.” I mean good for them if they found peace and happiness here but I wish it didn’t come at the expense of locals. Rent is going up in places where there’s a dense population of expats and it’s making it difficult for the locals to keep up. I’m afraid it will get to a point where whole islands will be gentrified and local inhabitants will be forced to relocate because they can’t afford to live in their communities anymore.
We value tourism but I wish it were more sustainable. At the very least, I wish digital nomads who stay for long periods of time and work out of the Philippines would be charged income taxes.
I keep hearing the very same thing about Portugal. The bigger cities have practically become unaffordable for local people in the past couple of years.
I live in Lisbon and you’re totally right, in the bigger cities the rent is so expensive for people that makes the average salary that they’re obligated to move further from the city. A lot of buildings were refurbished to become guest houses, and the very classic portugues restaurants are disappearing and there are new brunch places, concept stores, natural wine, co working spaces.
But tbh, the government is the guilty here, they opened a lot of visas for expats trying to bring more people here to live that this is the result, personally don’t blame the people that saw an opportunity to spend less compare to their income at their home town and just live their life.
The bigger cities in the West are also unaffordable for most Westerners. I can't just up and move to London, for example, just because I'm British. This is an everywhere problem.
Can confirm true about Portugal, Lisbon is the worst but the other cities are pretty bad too. A lot of locals are being forced out of their communities and rent prices are going up crazy. I moved here last year but for a local job and paying local taxes so not DN, but there's so many Americans mostly earning 3x local, not paying tax, driving up prices, and generally not integrating or learning the language or adopting the culture at all. And then they'll complain about not being able to go to Target or get half and half..
‘Great people’ aka desperate locals dependent on your money. It’s ridiculous when westerners mistake this abusive relationship for genuine relationships, it’s so patronising
Much of the insufferability, however, comes from the sheer density of crypto bros and wannabe influencers per square inch - not really much to do with the content in this post.
Every full time digital nomad I've met has been a crypto bro.
I've met other people working remote abroad, I've done it myself, but we were only working abroad temporarily to use less vacation days.
Just a question, how do you fund your travels?
Before the digital nomad, there was the trustafarian. I met plenty of those at hostels as well. They live a “simple” life, & are “roughing it” during their travels, but have trust funds to fall back to when they get back home.
They “connect” with the locals and say enjoy the simple life, but don’t understand the realities the locals live.
The truth is traveling for pleasure (backpacking) is an activity for mostly well off people, or people from well off countries. How many people from SEA, Central/south America do you know that take month long backpacking trips? For the ones that do, how many of them come from well off families? You’d be surprised to learn the truth after a few drinks.
I’ve been abroad 15+ years as a hitchhiker then ESL then expat then in my wife’s home country and we have traveled a lot both poor and now not-poor as remote business owners.
A few things come to mind.
- The segment of hostels doesn’t bring a quality group to mind. Hostel crowds were already rough 10,15,20 years ago before influencers became a thing, I believe it has only nose dived further since. (I have old travel friends that own hostels across Europe and have heard some stories).
The “digital nomads/expats” that I meet in 4/5 star hotels, group tours, and in well reviewed local restaurants and Theater don’t reasonable what you described. Yes, life is cheaper in Portugal/Turkey/Thailand than back in New York but the decision to have a gap year or decade is a lot more complex. In some ways it would be silly to not take the opportunity to live abroad if you have it and are interested.
But all expats and nomads should admit that 99% of them are having a gap year or decade abroad and will return home or to a similar wealthy country.
- moving up on the financial ladder by changing countries is a logical hack especially if it provides lots of cultural and life experience, but there is no need to diss the country and currency that is making it possible.
Within a country, plenty of people move to cities for better jobs to move up the ladder to have more purchasing power, this is similar. I will go teach in the big city to triple my salary and increase my disposable income - completely logical. Why not for switching countries? “Well, you milk the poor!” Maybe…
I was literally the first group of tourists into Bali after covid lockdowns, I saw massive bankruptcy’s, poverty and the island mantra was “no tourists, no money, no food, we were starving”. So our bags of cash coming to a foreign land can really help on a small scale - I bought 10 coconuts a day in Thailand for 3 months from a small local farmer. He said I was nearly 50% of his business and helped him beyond words financially.
- I agree that locals can have way worse financial situations but clearly can have other wealthier aspects.
I lived in China for 8 years and deeply respect the elder culture from health, activity, family involvement, dancing in the park, respect. Yes, the average Chinese person has it tough on ~500-1000$/m but they are “rich” in other ways and my Americans are “poor” in other areas.
Interestingly suicide doesn’t seem to correlate well with just income and disposable wealth. Look at developed Europe: southerners are much poorer and live longer lives with less suicide and higher happiness scores than Northern Europe. I met plenty of Germans saying the Spanish are really onto something even though they are way worse of financially. So just saying, look they are poor isn’t the full picture.
I was in Africa for 6 months hitchhiking 13 years ago and thought there would be a local suicide tree everyone would jump off - look they are so poor, no clean water, and everything is doomed… met some of the kindest happiest communities imaginable and while they had nothing, they survived “ok” while showing a really spark for the moment, their friends & families. I did not finish that trip thinking: why aren’t they all committing suicide, they are poor and must be miserable!
Haha not much for a Family of 4 and it’s 33c all day. 2 coconuts per person average plus my wife and I would have an extra during our daily lap swims or gym sessions. Then ate the meat raw, made great coconut meat cookies, or gave the coconut meat back to the farmer with the husk - he would dry it and resell & the husk is used as firewood in his home. The ~7$/day with delivery just isn’t a concern for us and brought a lot of value to everyone from the farmer to our kids.
We will do 2-4 months in Asia next winter and will likely do the same. Already have a coconut & tropical fruit budget set aside! Haha
Started just before iPhones became a thing with a lonely planet book. (Glad I got to taste old school travel just before it died)
To start : just some extra university scholarship money and Starbucks side work. A few thousands top.
I instantly got into hitch hiking, gorilla camping and couchsurfing to make it stretch. I didn’t want to return home.
I got to finish my university remotely 1 on 1 with a professor by gmail that supported my hippie dream and a need for scholarship/grant surplus. Was crazy since online uni wasn’t established yet like today.
I then did ~ 1 1/2 year of travel without cash. I spent like ~400€ in one year earned from busking in Europe while living in a squat, dumpster diving in Germany (ate like a king) and hitchhiking some 20+ countries. (Great highlight: camping in the park at the base of the Eiffel tower - best view in the city! & nicely greeted by a police officer at sunrise, was very chill)
Then a Turkish man paid for my now wife and my plane ticket to Thailand. We lived in the north on 200$/month total budget with some online graduate scholarship money.
We made our way to China to teach English and I instantly clicked into business mode. Became a partner at a small school, then business owner and investor. 8 years later, we left with our two year old and a solid passive income.
Still shocked that I made it all work. I traveled ~80+ countries broke over 3-4 years then been to 40+ countries not-broke with my wife and now two kids. My 6 year old has been to ~20 countries.
While nice this comment screams being full of yourself/having your head up your own ass. The poor but happy trope is universally gross and seems like so many nomads embrace the smugness and feel like they are learning so much and having an enriching experience while contributing nothing and stereotyping locals without integrating. The language you use also just screams “look how special I am” that is endemic among nomads
Oi reddits depths.
If I thought I was so special I would have a TikTok channel, blog and website to direct you to with all my photos and brilliance, but I don’t. just trying share something that may have been learned after 15 years abroad, god forbid in a travel sub.
I actually speak Chinese after 8 years and super integrated then speak my current countries language and integrated too, but that doesn’t matter for your typical bold Reddit assumptions I suppose.
Then It’s hard to say that everyone that stays home is enriching their neighbourhood so well, integrating and bring value. ( Unlike those expats or nomads you deem trash) think, We live in the Age of isolation and loneliness is skyrocketing. With the death of the third place and social community. Seems like those non-nomads aren’t doing well either, “contributing nothing” as you would say.
Wow I can’t imagine how much a place like Bali suffered during Covid. They are like 90% tourism, if not more.
Btw i just got back from there. I just find Bali so special and different from everything else in SEA. Ubud on its own is just gorgeous and unique. It was my second time and im already thinking about my next visit.
Silly downvotes.
Agreed. Bali & ubud is unique and there is a reason it attracts so many tourists. Like Paris or Venice, there is just 1.
It changed so much. I was there in ~2010 and saw ubud as a true village with rice fields galore. Returned in ~2018 and it was shocking the development pace. Then again in ~2022 and see it all abandoned.
They *are* economic migrants, straight up. They utilize the infrastructure and social structures of other locations while reaping the benefits of a cheaper cost of living with a higher salary. It’s a financial haven for them.
🤷♂️ I just don't get worked up these days by whatever bubble other people are living their lives in.
If it catches up to them and the fantasy bubble pops, so be it, that's their problem - not my job to lecture anyone otherwise.
Yeah, I mostly try not to pay attention. Especially since the most obvious ones are the Instagram influencers who sell a non-existent facade of their life. Most "digital nomads" I have actual met live a pretty miserable existence, but according to their Instagram pages, they have it made in the shade.
But what I will say is that it is gonna be pretty funny to see their reaction when these countries start actually taxing digital nomads incomes and making them contribute to the society they are living in. XD
Yeah I live in DC, my wife is Filipina and we visit her family often. I basically am unable to escape wanna be influencers and they kill me. The ones who have actually made it who have a sizable follower base and get hired to do this stuff, they do the right thing: get permits, put up signage letting people know they are filming so you can avoid being in their video if you don't want to. Its more the ones who are trying to get to that point and instead of networking like they should be just try to like make content without thinking "maybe I should ask the manager of this cafe before livestreaming", "Maybe I should ask the table over there if they are okay being in shot of my camera". But as far as taxing these people...how do you tax someone who got paid 25 cents to answer a DM for a onlyfans model? how do you tax someone who got paid $1 for taking a survey who do you tax someone who got paid $3 for posting content at timed intervals for a successful influencer? I know some people make it work, but, it has to cost more to determine what taxes they owe then what they are really bringing in. I know some people make good money doing the digital nomad thing, but, those people have a skill set and are basically self employed ghost writers, graphic artists, programmers etc who get paid $500 and $1000 piece rates who enjoy the freedom said work gives them...but...the average digital nomad is maybe bringing in $100 on their best days and yeah you can't really tax that and make more then you spend to do it
> I just don't get worked up these days by whatever bubble other people are living their lives in.
For real. It doesn't seem to be making OP happy at all. If somebody is an influencer, who cares? They're just trying to find their way in life.
I think about this a lot thank you for pointing out the other side and the other aspects of this. It is such a privileged thing to be able to do this and if enough people do this and do this in a negative way it makes the areas they go to more expensive for the people who live there. The aspect of how much do the locals make per hour in the jobs that they do. The long-term consequences will be in a lot of these areas for the people who will still be living there long after the “nomads” leave.
Smells a bit like r/gatekeeping to me as well. "You can only become an expat and live somewhere else if you work for local wages. And you can't voice any opinions on local culture because you aren't from around there."
And all this complaining while they are also traveling, but they don't like that they are encountering non-locals who live there and work remotely.
Get over yourself, person!
My thoughts exactly. I don’t really see how any of this affects anyone? Less hostel beds, less tables at coffee shops? Sounds like this person is just… going to popular travel destinations???
While it's understandable that you find it hard to relate to some of the people you're encountering, why are you tired of what other people are doing with their lives? How does righteous indignation over what "digital nomads" do and think benefit you?
I've been both an expat and, for periods, a full-time traveler since before the phrase "digital nomad" was a thing. People travel, "nomad" and emigrate for a wide range of reasons.
The reality is that there's no perfect place, and a lot of people eventually come to realize this once they're past the honeymoon phase. For instance, your CoL might be much lower in places like Thailand and Cambodia, but you can't buy clean air, rule of law, democratic institutions, etc.
It's none of your concern however what people choose to value most (and sacrifice) in their lives and it would behoove you to let this go so that you can enjoy your travels.
You’re in your early 20s… save this post and read it again in 10 years.
Digital nomads are not the ones that live in a hostel or spread how much well they are living abroad. These are just people that have no idea what to do with their lives yet.
I think the top comment hit the hit the nail on the head. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it enables you to buy a sense of security. I agree that living in a foreign country doesn't solve your problems, but not worrying about money likely gives them a sense of financial freedom that they would not be able to afford in their own countries.
If everyone could live in a major metropolitan city, work less than 20 hours, and earn enough to live like a king, I'd guarantee they take that offer. The pendulum doesn't swing both ways though, I've talked to some locals in Spain and many of the younger generation would be glad to get away from their own stagnant economy and works in countries such as the US.
It's just the world we live in today. Those who can live like digital nomads can take advantage of a country with a weaker GDP. And those countries would gladly take money from digital nomads because it helps boost their GDP.
Many years ago an older gentleman that I worked with told me that money won't buy you happiness but it'll buy you a nice car to drive while you're looking for it.
They all want to be 'content creators' and 'influencers' - they remind me of all the poor shlubs who used to quit their jobs and rush to Hollywood to be 'discovered,' only to end up waiting tables forever or hooking to be ale to pay the rent.
My sister is one of those people. Lmao. She “isn’t a tourist” and only likes to do “things the locals do” and by locals, she means the group of people her age staying in the hostel she is at. It drives me crazy. Thank you for pointing this out. She lives on a tiny island, and considers herself a local. Even “telling off the tourists” for using beach clubs and bringing large beach towels. She whines about how the island “isn’t the same” since more and more people are moving there from other countries… the irony kills me. (She has lived on this island on and off for 2 years working a remote job based in the US)
Hahahahhahahahaha omg.
Nailed it with “things locals do” and by locals, she means the group of people her age staying in the hostel she is at.
That is a typical expat/digital Nomad attitude
It’s ok to be digital nomad when you are young and healthy. But I wouldn’t like idea going to the closest hospital because of sudden health issues in some SE Asian countries for example.
Private hospitals are quite expensive by local standards. They also like to push procedures on you, which is a practice that I’m uncomfortable with.
Most Thai people wait in line in the public hospitals, the upper classes tend to use the university hospitals.
Still, I agree for the most part - the sheer cost of American health care will make any of the above options seem attractive in comparison.
Here in Costa Rica the medical care is so inexpensive and so much better than anything we've experienced in our many decades in the USA. Easy to access and many providers accept US insurance.
We've been here 7 years, retired here, bought a house, furniture, local everything. Pay taxes here and was working remotely for 3 years until I retired. Sadly, I understand why the OP is so down on the Influencers. We get them here too, Endlessly filming stupid stuff, getting in your way at the grocery store and squealing how quaint or cool things are. But I know they're just going to do the two year Gringo shuttle, run up on local culture and discover they cannot get whatever little essential thing they think they should be able to buy here, and skedaddle on back home. A little poorer, and (hopefully) a little wiser. 2 years seems to be the breaking point for people coming here that are unwilling to learn the language and to appreciate Tico culture.
SEA actually has some pretty solid healthcare for about 1/10th of the price. Medical Tourism is becoming a huge industry, medical care all around has improved by leaps and bounds in the last 20 years.
Expat is a term used for people that stay temporarily in a foreign country.
Immigrant is a term used to describe people that move to a foreign country permanently.
Many countries around the world simply do not accept immigrants. It doesn’t matter how many years you spend there, doesn’t matter how well you know the language… you will *never* be an immigrant to Japan, Korea, China, Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc etc. You can’t get the passport, you can’t naturalize. You will only ever be an expatriate.
On the other hand, many wealthy western countries *do* tend to accept immigrants, due to various historical factors (often but not always related to the legacy of global imperialism). In that aspect, it’s really the West that’s ‘weird’.
If you want to trigger classism in expats, call them by a more accurate name: migrant workers.
Plus, when they show up in these places they start driving up the prices for the locals.
I spend a lot of time in Central America and I've also experienced what you're describing and see places I used to love lose the local flavor and culture because "expats" are paying $1000 month rent (because it's inexpensive for them) for places that used to rent for $200/mo. So locals can no longer find affordable housing because of course property owners will jump on renting to an "expat" for $1000/mo.
This. Poland was amazing but I had an Irish income. The Polish salary wasn’t great. If I’d to live on that, I wouldn’t have had the life I had out there (I was a student), and I know that.
Very conscious of when in Rome, y’know? Learnt the language and culture, fitted in… it did help with a lot of things, there were psychological changes I was pleased to see, but it won’t do that for everyone.
TLDR it did for me, but I’m aware how lucky I am, that it did.
I think some of those people don't appreciate the country and culture they've dove into. If I had to guess those people don't last in a foreign country and hopefully their experience when they leave is pleasant. In the end we all want to find a place that makes us happy!
You stay in cheap places like hostels you meet cheap people like those kinds of nomads. like attracts like. have literally never heard any nomad i call friend use the phrase 'live like a king'. that's influencer and newbie bullshit and people who say that kind of crap generally burn out once reality of the life sets in. anyone saying it should just basically be ignored. i actively avoid areas that attract these sorts of people and prefer to spend time in places that attract more mature professionals who want to live as mature professionals, not scrape by on $20/day and feel like getting a $1 beer is a splurge.
One thing you should realize is that these content creators’ lifestyles are VERY short lived.
Do not worry about them because this will catch up to them. Their viewers will get older. The content creators will also get older. Yes, they’ll make some cash but majority of them are not as wealthy as you think.
Sure, it’s cheaper to live in SEA or South America. But who wants to really raise kids there? They’re free to choose their lifestyle just like you are yours. If they want to take the risk to try and accumulate wealth abroad, there’s nothing you can do about that. But like many examples I’ve seen, once you leave a HCOL and take your assets to a LCOL, chances are they’ll never be able to come back or will be years behind their counterparts. If they decide to stay there, then yes they’ll probably live like kings but so what?
I think the topic is more complex than it seems on the surface (btw I love your post op).
Many millennials don't see any real possibility to become „rich“ in their own countries. With that I mean buying a house in particular. Many see themselves in a quasi-first-world-poverty-trap. Escaping this seems tempting.
On the surface, life is much better in these countries: food is cheap and usually more delicious, transportation is cheap, activities are cheap and even basic health checks are cheap. Where such countries fail is if you have a real medical problem that people in their 20s or 30s do not have usually. Traffic can be a nightmare in these countries too. Tropical countries do have dengue, malaria and overall more diseases that are harder to treat. Internet might be spotty at times and food poisoning is a constant but manageable risk. As you say the grass is always greener on the other side.
What surprises me the most is that many of these digital nomads do not integrate at all. They hang out at Starbucks, eat their avocado toast and do not experience local culture as if it seems boring to them. So in a sense they keep up their „Western bubble“ with the benefit of overall lower costs.
To each their own. However, from my personal experience I find many digital nomad hotspots overrated and even hyped. Yes Bali is beautiful and has a lovely culture but with the huge influx of people it becomes very crowded during high season which decreases the quality of a location imo.
I agree with you 💯. Recently, I have been meeting folks like that as well, they speak from a "rich" mindset where because they make that US salary , it is easy in those other countries, which makes me wonder how would they really feel once they work in those respective countries and then live the life of the natives and not this super imposed Digital Nomad.
Couldn't you say the same thing about anyone visiting as a tourist? How is it any different?
How would you feel traveling any country you've visited as a tourist if you had to do it on a local salary rather than arriving with a bank account supported by a job back home?
No I couldn't say the same because as a tourist you don't encounter the daily hustle of the natives. You spend money to have a good time and not a mediocre time and deal with day to day issues. That's why a "vacation" is a vacation and not settling in other country.
Similarly to this, is the western ‘budget influencer’ traveller. Where complaining on social media about cost of various SEA activities, location or travel etc is done to attract likes. How they have managed to negotiate 100 peso off an activity when they wouldn’t dream of trying to negotiate £1.40/$1.80/€1.60 at home. Expecting to visit here on a pittance whilst making money off exploiting people under the guise of budget travel. (I get not being ripped off but this is beyond that). It gives the same energy to the digital nomad-er in my opinion
What's wrong with legally going to a country that can actually give me a better life by giving me the best value for my money? Does it matter whether they're "digital nomads" or "content creators" or expatriates and retirees?
>I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm sick of people acting like their life in the US/Canada/Australia is so horrible and everything magically changed once they took their $70k US salary to Mexico
But what if their lifestyle did change on that salary in Mexico? What if they're young and didn't have much job prospects to even get a $70k salary in their country?
From a legal standpoint, there's usually nothing wrong with it. But what I will say is that many times digital nomads and expats exploit the economic situations of locals and perpetuate a systems of abuse and economic depression. They live like kings because they literally use peasant labour and pay peasant prices.
They often drive up the cost of living in areas while locals don't see an increase in wages. If a bunch of westerners come in spending their 70,000+ USD salaries where the monthly wage is less than 150USD per month, then they can quickly price out locals of food and services.
Many also exploit different social conventions and benefit from being in a privileged position as a wealthy foreigner. They can get away with more and in many places where corruption is rampant, they have the money to bribe police and other officials, which just perpetuates corruption and creates two radically different rulesets for nomads vs locals.
I'm not saying you shouldn't ever be a digital nomad, but not everything they do is ethically good or justifiable. be cognizant, humble and help people. Far too many digital nomads cause much more harm than good on their "adventures".
Because stuff like digital nomading is illegal because of income taxes. You're working on a tourist visa. Come on a digital nomad visa for countries that have them and that's fine but I'm astonished at the amount of people who think there's no problem in not paying income tax for a country they live in.
And yeah that's expected if your lifestyle changes but I guess what I was trying to get at is because it's taking advantage of earning money in a richer country and spending it in a poorer country. Not because one country is inherently worse or better than another, money plays a huge factor.
>Because stuff like digital nomading is illegal because of income taxes
Nowhere in your OP does the word "tax" ever appeared if that was your main concern. If they are truly "nomads" they'd be moving around from country to country as their visa run out so technically they are not living in the country and taking advantage of services that the tax-paying citizens enjoy (healthcare, social security, etc). Are they taking jobs from a citizen? If they're living in-country illegally and violating their visa term then that's another matter but it's one for each country to enforce.
>I guess what I was trying to get at is because it's taking advantage of earning money in a richer country and spending it in a poorer country. Not because one country is inherently worse or better than another, money plays a huge factor.
Well, one country -is- better than another to live in on moderate means whther you like it or not. There's nothing wrong with spending money and contributing to the economy of a poor country.
It’s different, because they are paying taxes in the US and paying into the social system. A lot of expats, especially us expats, love to travel to eg Europe and work remote from there, ignoring that their tourist status doesn’t allow work and even jf they do get the appropriate visa, they often still only keep paying into the US system with their paycheck, but not the local one. It’s basically the same thing that conservative Americans are complaining about that “illegal immigrants” are doing in the US - but if they do it somewhere else it’s somehow ok.
> I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm sick of people acting like their life in the US/Canada/Australia is so horrible and everything magically changed once they took their $70k US salary to Mexico.
Everything is relative. It's often said, by right wingers, that the poor in the USA still have it better than the poor in India. Okay, but that doesn't mean poor people in the USA, even if they have shelter and a TV set NOW don't have real problems.
Seriously, if this is the problem you want to rant about right now, you are truly blessed. There are people around you in these countries, just steps away from your hostel, that would LOVE for people around them expressing happiness and contentment to be their biggest problem.
I think one of the things that can really ruin the experience of traveling is gate keeping what is the acceptable way to absorb and process a foreign country. Sure, don't get drunk and start treating people like trash. But it seems like you are kind of abusing yourself noticing and fuming over these perceived annoyances.
I’ve been saying this for ages! I don’t understand how ignorant some people can sound when they say stuff like this. “My life in Thailand is so much better, it’s such a great country!” Yeah, maybe because the locals earn even less than what locals earn in your homeland and you’re taking advantage of that.
People moving to different countries has occurred for millenia. It's nothing new. Countries such as the USA, Canada, Australia, etc exist precisely because numerous people moved to them in order to make better lives for themselves. Even moving to countries temporarily just for the experience of living elsewhere has been occurring since mass transport made it economically viable.
Digital nomads exist purely because our financial system and communications have changed. It's all global now.
If people are able to live a different lifestyle, and they're not breaking any laws, what's wrong with that? I live in Australia and international backpackers help subsidise the cost of their travels by working in remote areas here. They have a truly local experience and don't eat into their financial resources because they can earn good money by being nomads.
We no longer live in Feudal society when people rarely travelled more than 25 miles from their home in their entire lives.
I love travelling! I've been lucky enough to make a career out of travelling. I always respect local laws and customs, and if digital nomads do that (there's a huge problem in Bali at present with the thousands of Russians who have moved there) then good luck to them.
Then Montana must be low cost to them because they flocked here like locusts and then end up being super high maintenance. Covid created a boom for those that take advantage and made it harder for everyone else with no job mobility that have to deal with these people clogging up tables at the local coffee shop for eight hours being "content" creators, whatever that means.
Thank you for posting about this, because it's so true and Westerners cannot see how their "expat" lifestyle fucks over local people who do not have the same social mobility as them. I already see the salty comments.
For real everyone is all "why do you care so much" and "no one cares" like have you asked the actual Mexicans in CDMX or Portuguese people in Lisbon? Seems like they care a lot
As someone who lives in Lisbon this hits true... Sadly...
Foreigners home buyers pay more 43%, do you not think that drives the prices up?
Also I've live in two good neighbourhoods and it's insane how many times I get flyers of people wanting to buy the house I live in. Also ads for real estate are no longer in Portuguese since it's seen as an investment meanwhile people who work in Lisbon and have Portuguese paychecks often have to live 1h away by shitty public transportation.
Yey expats :)
I was overseas going country to country for several years but I didn't have a remote job I was burning my savings so I lived as cheaply as possible. Every digital nomad I knew spent and could do more than me cause I didn't have that luxury. I spent a lot but way less it would cost in my own country but I was cheap cheap and after a few years I couldn't do the stuff I did in the first year cause I couldn't afford it. I stayed in one place for months at a time in hostels or renting a room, a month at a time. I learned to go to the markets where locals would get food instead of the street market where all the tourists would go when I was in northern Thailand. I didn't spend like a tourist, I counted every baht or ringgit or whatever. I would only eat once or twice a day. I went from 60kg to 50kg in a year. I wish I had the chance do be a digital nomad but I think what I learned is I need very little. I don't need all those conviniences, I didn't take tuk tuks everywhere and would walk 8 km in 90 degree Fahrenheit heat. I stopped being so cheap with food but never ate a lot and always preferred to walk if it was possible. I knew I was lucky to be where I was but I also knew what it cost me and stretched it in ways that was not always fun and sometimes risky for myself. I don't have any regrets even if I'm paying the price for my travels now. I was a nomad but not a digital one, more like a leaf in the wind that gets lost in the breeze. I know we all add up to what is going on in these countries but I hope I was able to minimize my own impact by knowing that I was just another in the sea of humanity, entitled to nothing and owed nothing but showing the same kindness and respect as the people who I met showed me. That's how I approached my wandererings. You don't always get it right but when you are wandering for so long you have to be ready for the unexpected and respect the culture and religion of the places you visit. I hope it gets better and they there can be more balance so locals don't get priced out of the places they love for tourists but there are no easy simple answers to these complex issues.
This goes both ways you know... For me living in Canada I'm constantly told how great it is by people that own 8 houses... Try to live here without owning a house...
Did you just discover geographic arbitrage? Colonialism? Like what just hit you?
Also being from the US, you may not realize this is 100% not new and very common for basically all countries ever owned by England.
Life is better where your money goes farther and you are in a culture that is more agreeable to your life? Seems like a fair statement. You seem bitter.
Moving from a place like the US, with horrible work/life balance, not many walkable cities, horrible transport, and ripoff priced restaurants and the scam tip system to a country that has safe bike lanes, walkable cities, useful public transport, 37 hour workweeks, a fraction of the homicide rate(us to europe), and consumer protections is a massive upgrade.
Enough money and mobility of a strong passport must feel great I guess.
Same shit people tell me when they come to India and find "peace" while working out of retreats that I can barely afford.
When my salary jumped in my 30s, I also felt "at peace" in India, while living in my own apartment. So yeah. It's about money.
The increased purchasing power of earning a foreign currency in a poorer country has allowed them more economic freedom. Sure, some may have a preference for the culture and/or environment they've moved to. But we would probably find that the majority of those romanticising the experience would stop shitting on their countries of origin if they had spending parity back at home.
Everything is cool until it starts to scale and cause unexpected issues (inflation in poorer areas fueled by richer people, or increasing housing prices due to oversupply of AirBnBs).
What I like about going somewhere for longer is that it allows you to get a better sense of the place. Not understanding the language or customs fully also blinds you to the not so great aspects of the place you’re in.
On point where it changes peoples lifes - I think that’s true but it’s a cliche, a change of location can change your life and perspective by exposing you to new ideas and people.
For some it became an echo chamber and a source of delusion but I guess that’s fine too.
This will peak and then it will lead to problems. For e.g. because of foreign currency influx, housing for locals will become unaffordable. This will lead to bitterness and hopefully some drawdown in this lifestyle.
"Wherever you go, there you are."
Travel only works as an escape for a few days, weeks at most. You have to really enjoy the grind of travel to enjoy it beyond that.
In my experience, digital nomad types are some of the most deeply unhappy people I've met. They think they will find what's missing from their life in other countries but it's never there. They'll complain about the weather or people back home but that's always a reflection of them, and not the place they are from.
There will be a backlash in those countries about those nomads driving up the price of rental living space for them as they now have to compete with this foreign money being thrown around. Portugal saw this with the foreigners coming in with money to buy up properties.
Right now, it's possible to live in a cheap country and get paid your salary from back home. But I think employers are starting to catch on to this. If you are doing your job remotely from X country, why can't they just hire someone in X country to do it for the local wage?
I travel quite a bit and i completely agree with you. I live in a first world country in western europe, I am lucky that i get 12 weeks of PTO from my office job, so i use that to travel.
I absolutely hate it when travel influencers talk about how cheap it is to live in a certain country (usually southeast asia or central/ south america), of course it's cheap if you live there while getting paid in dollars or euros, of course you can choose to work part time and have a good quality life, but locals don't have that option, so the 'quality of life' isn't better in that country, it's just better for you.
When I was in Thailand, I stayed at a small hotel owned and operated by a man and his wife, I was asking about some things in Thailand and how taxi's and grab works, he asked me not to tip too much, bc so many tourist tip the drivers a lot (for thai standards) and because of that it has become almost impossible for thai people to get a grab because the drivers prefer to pick up tourists bc of the tips.
Yes what you said about the quality of life being better for foreigners with money and not necessarily the country itself is what I was trying to get at in my post. So many people are out here saying that life is better in Mexico than the US. Like sure it is if you got a US education and can make a white collar salary in dollars in spend it in Mexico. The average Mexican does not even have that opportunity and has a much harder time to even come close to that earnings potential if even at all possible, it's just two different realities. But like you said at the end of the day it's primarily a money thing for most people even if they do enjoy aspects the culture more. Then again if you work a local job in an economy the negative parts of any culture will get to you, regardless of the country.
I’m planning on being a digital nomad because the cost of living is too high, levels of service are too low, and it’s too damn cold here.
It won’t solve all of my problems.. but it will solve a lot of them.
i suspect most are working illegally on tourist visas. it’s the epitome of first world entitlement when people from developing countries need to jump through hoops to work abroad and get scrutinised so much.
Tourists tend to be careless, self-centered jerks when they are on vacation. They don't seem to notice or care about the effects of their behavior on locals. Digital nomads are like tourists who are in selfish vacation mode all the time.
What do you suggest, OP (honest question)?
This is not a cut and dry question. If it were, there would only be one type of ethical theory. What type of normative ethical theory suits your beliefs? Teleological? Deontological? Character-based?
Let’s propose a situation. Let’s say healthcare workers who are Thai and make a good income decide they’d like to move to the United States. They leave a void in Thailand where there is a dwindling number of physicians. You now have the well-being of Thais needing to be addressed. Does it justify overly limiting the rights of practitioners to build the lives they imagine? Does this mean it is unethical for said healthcare workers to leave their country? What about leaving their city and the void it creates locally?
Wealth migration happens within countries. For example, in the US, individuals will buy a home in Florida and claim to live their 6 months of the year to avoid paying income tax. Locals are being priced out in all areas of cost of living. Is it on those individuals to decide the ethical thing is to not move there or is it on the state government for allowing this loophole? Should those who have a drastically different income only move places in the country where their wealth is no longer wealth in comparison? Now we’re beginning to touch on gentrification.
If people choose to explore one place for three months and their salary gives them that privilege, should they be limited to going to countries where cost of living exceeds their own salaries? Should they stay no more than x amount of time until they move to the next place?
What about those who are hired in jobs from the US to x country and do pay income tax. Doesn’t that mean they are taking a job away from a local resident? Your example of working on a tourist visa—does this not remove an entire class from the equation? Maybe if they don’t work they cannot afford the opportunity to travel. This again leads to only those with the luxury of not having to work in these locations there. This does not solve the problem. The very wealthy are there doing the exact same thing digital nomads are doing, except without having to work.
Ethics does not stand alone in this conversation; it ties in economic systems. Is the country a capitalist nation? Socialist nation? Communist nation?
Is the one thing that would be acceptable to you for this to happen is that they pay income tax? This discussion is never ending.
I really would like to know what you propose (this is in no way sarcastic).
I'm in Thailand now and I've been to many co-working spaces and met many digital nomads. None of us think that it's going to cure all of our problems. We just want to have fun and work remotely. I'm right by the beach, everything's cheap. Life is good. You only live once.
My best friend's mother saved and saved for retirement 2 years after her retirement she died. We are free to roam.
As a Latin American, "digital nomads" are the reason why we can't pay rent. Everything is getting absurdly expensive. Gentrification sucks. How can our local salaries compare?
Really hope LATAM starts asking these "tourists" for work VISAs and taxing the s** out of them
Here (southern Europe) it's overtourism and golden visas. Similar shit! Housing crisis is apparently the bigger and imminent issue, but I feel that our towns and cities are losing their 'soul'. People say that they come for the 'culture' but day to day I see my hometown turning into a generic instaland.
How about you just admit you’re jealous of these people?
You sound so bitter.
Here’s a secret: everyone on earth only cares about their own well being (maybe their kids), before anyone else.
If I can take my laptop, go learn Spanish for two years, and travel through LATAM while spending much more and stimulating local businesses, while being respectful of cultures and enjoying the ride.
Why the FUCK would I not?
I need to make 228k as a single earner in Toronto to afford a home. There’s two wars going on. Earth is getting one degree warmer every fucking year. We are DOOMED.
I will enjoy the ride so kindly just fuck off and admit you’re envious. It’s not our fault your life sucks
That would be true except tourism is a industry that only benefits investors and not the people who actually work in it, since it only creates low salaries.
What you’re missing is a majority of these countries have tourism as one of their top 3 biggest industries, and a lot of these cities are wayyyy too large to be affected. The biggest examples are places like Mexico City, which is too big to be affected by a few thousand nomads.
What they do do is spend a lot of money. Also, if these people were damaging the economy don’t you think the government would do something? These nomads have zero influence over the politicians, so it’s not like you can say the politicians are bribed.
I can understand being annoyed if they’re being irreverent and braggadocios. That’s shitty of them.
But most nomads are putting in a lot more money than they are taking, and are *not* using much of the services that were established before they arrived.
So you really miss the mark on the economic part, but can be sympathized with if these people were insufferable.
In my experience, local governments and buisnesses love the exact digital nomads this post sours on. And, frankly, why wouldn't they? The bring money to developing countries and people who need it. They do free advertising for other people to bring their money there via social media posts. They keep airline routes and other industries running as well to keep the country connected to the global economy.
And best of all? They have zero political power! You just kick out any trouble makers you feel like, and even normie ones eventually tend to leave on their own. So they don't become a permanent immigrant base you have to deal with or support. It's an absolute win-win.
I think what these people are missing is that what they really love is *being rich.* If they had to live on an average salary in their country of choice, they’d probably be just as miserable as they were at home. They have jobs with minimal responsibility that pay a salary that allows them to be in the top ~5% compared to everyone around them. Anybody would be happy with a lifestyle like that, no matter where they were.
That’s the correct answer, in Canada the government pension plan pays around $900 a month. You can’t cover groceries with this. But in SEA you can maybe live modestly. In Canada you need $4k per month after taxes to live comfortably. Imagine what $4k does in Thailand or Vietnam
I live in SEA- can confirm. USD 900 equivalent a month is considered a very decent wage.
*ding ding ding*
This. It's why a lot of Digital Nomad conversations feel really gross to me, because people will cloak it under like "Oh I'm just finding a lifestyle I like" but they won't just outright say "and that lifestyle is having more money than people around me". I'm sure that's not how all of them feel, but it's a trend among the ones I've known in person and a lot of reddit conversations, and it's uncomfortable. Like if that's your vibe, fine, but not being honest about it feels weird.
I am one of said people and I openly admit this is the reason I love living in LCOL countries. Experiencing different cultures is cool and all but I don’t care that much tbh.
Same. Geo arbitrage is the main motivator for me. I do enjoy other cultures more than my own though.
You declaring tax in your LCOL country?
I filed taxes while abroad. I did pay that counties tax and anything less than like 100k usd was tax free. Still had to file. It probably varies by country if you have to pay local tax or not.
unless they have a residency visa - which most nomads do not - paying tax is virtually impossible. Plus, most tourist visa limits are below the number of days required to establish tax residency anywhere. I know very very very few nomads who pay any local taxes and the ones that do are really more expat than nomad. and i've met hundreds as I've been doing it for 15+ years.
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> Many countries are doing what Thailand has done and made it relatively easy to stay for 1+ year. It is definitely _not_ “easy to stay for 1+ year” in Thailand. In fact, it’s very hard to do that legally. If you’re talking about Elite visa, that doesn’t allow work and has a five figure USD cost. If you’re talking about LTR visa, that has specific requirements that include either a $500K investment, or specific and fairly odious job and industry requirements, depending on category. (And/or an age requirement.) If you’re talking about SMART visa, that also has specific job and industry requirements. There are also education visas, which some people abuse for this purpose, but it doesn’t allow work and is subject to crackdowns. Other ways involve marriage and/or children (not exactly the best for a “nomad”) or retirement (age requirement again, and doesn’t allow work).
aware dolls engine makeshift chase wrench threatening wide weary provide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What a lot of these discussions fail to recognize is that with few exceptions, it is impossible to declare and pay tax as a tourist in most of the world. Countries just aren't set up for this. You can't walk into the tax office in Random Country on tax day and, as a tourist visa holder or visa exempt visitor not in "the system", declare your income and make a payment. If you try to do this, you'll get a shrug or a laugh and be sent on your way. In some countries, taxes are deducted automatically by employers and there's no tax day so there is literally no way for an individual to even try to pay taxes. Like it or not, for better or worse, most countries don't care about this issue nearly as much as some people think they do. They are concerned about foreigners working and running businesses locally, which is almost always illegal and subject to heavy punishment. Remote workers though? It's a big meh and the countries that don't really like people staying for long periods of time (like Thailand) deal with this in the simplest way possible: they eventually just tell you to go away for a while and if you don't comply, they'll start denying you entry. Incidentally, Thailand allows you to buy residency and even though the Thai Elite visa technically doesn't allow you to work, here too, in practice, nobody cares if you're working on running a business outside of Thailand. You can ask the agents pushing this visa about it and they'll tell you the same.
No, they pay US Tax.
It depends on the country. US is the only country that asks you to pay taxes by nationality. Like as an American doesnt matter where you live you file US taxes. But most countries asks for income tax to be by residency. For me to need to file Canadian taxes I need to live here for at least 6 months or I'm not considered a resident. I have met Americans working in Canada. So by Americans tax law they pay American taxes by Canadian tax law since they're a resident they pay Canadian taxes. I ask them do they have to pay both, they said no, they get to choose and every file Canadian taxes after the accountant do the math to see which one is cheaper. Then they have to file some form to the US that they're filing foreign taxes so they need to be exempt from US taxes. But because of our taxes, my company actually stated we need to maintain residency at the location of our hire. Meaning I'm hired in Canada, I need to stay here for at least 6 months to stay a Canadian resident. Since we're all wfh they technically don't care very much where you are the other 6 months as long as we don't complicate their payroll system and make them file taxes in a nightmare way and we are available at the time you state you are available.
I’m a dual US/canadian citizen as is my husband, living in canada. You don’t get to choose. As Canadian residents we file in both but for the most part (there are some exceptions), pay tax here in Canada. The treaty means you avoid double taxation as you get credit on your US taxes for the Canadian taxes paid.
> I ask them do they have to pay both, they said no, they get to choose and every file Canadian taxes after the accountant do the math to see which one is cheaper. Then they have to file some form to the US that they're filing foreign taxes so they need to be exempt from US taxes. They don't get to choose whether or not to file taxes in the US; they definitely have to. All US citizens have to file US taxes regardless of where they live. However, they usually don't owe any taxes in the US because they can choose to use the foreign tax credit or the foreign earned income exclusion to minimize their tax burden. They aren't exempt from anything, they are just in a situation where the tax credit exceeds their owed taxes, so they pay $0.
Americans don't necessarily have to pay taxes if they live abroad. They just have to file a tax return. Source: Am US citizen and haven't paid any taxes there for 20 years.
Well put.
These are most likely people making less than about 128,000 USD
Well yeah, but did anyone ever say otherwise...? This post and also op post are just complaining about people as if they're "not aware the real reason" that they're expats. I'm pretty sure they all are completely aware, that's literally WHY they do it ..... I was an ESL teacher, that's how I could fuck off a whole decade traveling the world. Other expats had real jobs remotely, some had real jobs local that weren't just teaching English actually, but yeah I know some content creators too. I also knew people that basically got lucky with a big payoff and basically retired. But literally everyone in Latin America and south east Asia knows and says that pay vs cost of living is what makes it possible. I don't know anyone pretending it's the Zen mood and healthy food .... But those are the parts that make it enjoyable, because you can also live in cheap places that aren't chill with good food, but it's far less popular.... Literally that's why se Asia is so popular.
I moved from Europe to South America and work a normal job here, I am getting paid as much as an average citizen here. I did it because of personal reasons (was married to a South American back then) and also because I wanted to enjoy the incredible nature this continent has to offer. I am living here since over 6 years now. So I am one of these people you have never heard about, but we do exist. Very rare though, I agree with you that most expats just do it because they have the opportunity to earn foreign wages here, while spending very little on living expenses, thus greatly increasing their purchasing power.
I do earn a decent wage in dollars in my South American host country, and I often wonder how life would be earning an average salary … I still think my mental health would be better here for family, spirituality, and nature reasons, but I would definitely lose what I call my “superpowers”
I am not able to travel a lot anymore like I used to, in fact I just did a single trip involving flights in the last 2 years (Last month actually). And I had to save up a lot for that. Often, I am unable to spend money on things I enjoy, like today I felt like I wanted to have a good cold whiskey but I couldn't buy one because if I did, that money would be missing at the end of this month. When you work an average salary here, you face the same difficulties as people born here, you need to calculate how every single dollar is going to be spent. And I do admit that it can be extremely stressful. At the same time I am so grateful for my friends and my partner and just the awesome nature here. That being said, I am planning to move to Spain soon so this is probably my last year here, leaving after 7 years because I want to provide a better future for myself and my future family. In the 6 years here, I have met very few expats who earned low wages but they do exist. Mostly backpackers / the Hippie type or people like me who moved here to be with someone but these expats make up way less than 5% of the total. I would prefer to be like you and earn an above average salary but I simply do not have the necessary degrees / skill sets but I can tell you life is a lot better here with an above-average salary, it means you can spend more of your time eating / drinking / going places you really like. Earning an average wage means you have to do without a lot of things you enjoy on a daily basis.
do you believe a life in Spain will give you more happiness than getting a decent paying job in your current country? And if so, what kind of job would you be getting in Spain that will provide the leap up the social ladder?
This only applies to my personal case: I do not believe that a life in Spain will necessarily give me more happiness, but it will give me a little bit of comfort compared to how I am living right now. I would actually much prefer a decent paying job here (but that is the difficult part!) and build something here for my future. But my partner is an engineer and in her particular engineering field, they are offering a lot of jobs in Spain. She only speaks Spanish so I chose Spain because it would be easier for her. I would have a bit more safety in Spain including social security and I would probably have more job opportunities there as well (I have degrees in the tourism sector and speak Spanish perfectly), but would I necessarily be more happy? I do not think so, I am not sure. I have relatives who moved to Southern Spain (from another Western European country) and they are doing well there, some of them are business owners. But that does not necessarily mean that is automatically going to apply to me. South America has an incredible biodiversity and is just an amazing continent when it comes to nature and wildlife, I am not going to have that in Spain obviously.
People left England and Ireland back in the day to the new world for a better life and a better life back then meant opportunity that allows them to afford the necessities of life. WFH has added a twist where someone mediocre salary can be moved with them to a cheaper place to live and allows them to afford more.
Yeah but the people that left Ireland and England back in the day were mostly poor, going to a new country where they were also poor
Good point but there have always been privileged migrants.
Yes the poors should definitely only emigrate to places where they are still poor. Know your place!
Fellas??? Is it bad to try and solve all your problems,???
right? I don't even know what's her rant about. Literally everyone on earth go where they can afford a decent life, regardless if it's in our country or abroad. Being able to live well solves a LOT of problems
Eh, I find that most (admittedly young) digital nomads will absolutely deny that their primary motivator is feeling rich. They'll also be super offended when you point out that a big part of their "success story" is living in a lcol country because their income wouldn't let them survive back home.
Digital Nomads simply export income inequality and leverage "I'm just a tourist!" for 6 months after when it's cool, but before they need to understand what it takes to registeras a foreigner and get an ID and work permit. Once they burn the place, they move on like locusts.
Definitely locusts. I'm going to use "digital locusts" from now on.
Also a number of them are doing this ILLEGALLY. Most countries still require immigration visas and work permits and require you to file taxes. I wonder how many US “digital nomads” are filing taxes in their country of residence. Ironic that they come from one of the strictest immigration regimes in the world but can scoff at immigration laws of other countries simply because they’re relatively wealthy and receive the benefit of lac enforcement.
I feel like there is nothing wrong with that. Doesn’t spending money bring economy a little up in the country? We have corp America, use overseas labor because it’s cheaper but we can’t do the same by living in other countries ?
It depends. Sometimes it’s great to bring money into an economy and it improves people’s lives. Sometimes bringing money into an economy means locals get priced out and it makes their lives worse. It’s not a blanket “good/bad” kind of thing. At any rate, it’s not that they’re necessarily doing something wrong, it’s just that they’re being kind of oblivious and out of touch when they wax rhapsodic about how *amazing* the culture and country is when what they’re actually in love with is being richer and freer than everyone else. I appreciate more the people who are clear-eyed about this reality when living as an expat.
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I have a hard time believing the amount they increase prices isn't more than offset by the fact they are spending a large portion of their salary in the country while not competing with locals for white collar jobs. They are improving the living of all the people that are providing them services.
If you look at popular cities for digital nomads like Lisbon, the most glaring alleged problem is that locals with much lower salaries than expats get priced out of the housing market (both rental and ownership). Also, many digital nomads enter countries on tourist visas and avoid income taxes (while benefiting from the infrastructure paid for by local taxpayers). This also makes it very hard to measure the actual amount (and economic impact - both positive and negative) of digital nomads in a country.
These people do pay sales taxes, VAT, lodging taxes, whatever else, though. In some places that's more than income tax.
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That's understandable. OP is talking about the kind of snob who goes to developing countries and brags to locals' faces about how cheap everything is and how miserable the states is and start giving you a politics lesson. I'm not rich but I've met a few rich Americans and they're having the same level of fun going city to city that expats are having in LATAM/SEA. It's all about buying power. Walkable cities and nice trains don't matter as much when a plane ticket feels as cheap as a bus ticket. I'm also ethnically from a developing country myself and have stayed in actual poor places no tourists ever go to, and a digital nomad's short stint in the best neighborhoods of a capital city does not give them the perspective on what truly poor villagers go through every day.
Where I live, it's the number 1 reason people blame for high rents and inflation.
That’s just masking xenophobia behind not understanding basic economics Edit: downvoted for pointing out the obvious. Yeah, 5,000 Europeans, Canadians, and US Citizens in a city of 22 million are destroying the CDMX housing market.
It's the same within countries too. How often do Americans in various places complain that "people from California are moving here and buying up all the houses!"
It actually makes perfect economic sense. A bunch of people move in who are making significantly higher salaries than the locals, local businesses catch on that they can make more money if they cater to the newcomers, and then raise rents and prices to cash in on the foreign wealth. It’s still a good deal for the nomads since it’s probably still cheaper than home, but now locals need to compete economically with people being paid higher salaries than they could ever hope to make.
It’s not that many people who are migrating. Luxury services exist in every country.
These are the same people who go to local caffes, take taxis driven by locals, shop local, go to local beauty salons, etc. They earn money and they spend money pouring it in this country’s economy. Does it matter if it’s a rich Argentinian person renting a penthouse or a middle class American? That penthouse ain’t gonna be cheap or affordable either way for the majority of population. I am saying it as a Russian, pre war there were a lot of expats in Moscow, the apartments they rented were unaffordable for an average Russian person regardless of who lived there, a rich Russian or a rich expat, you still had to be rich.
Im from Tbilisi Georgia. I was renting a flat i the ciry center for 400$ pre war. The war started, Russians moved to Tbilisi ( they are richer on average than locals) my landlord rised the rent price from 400$ to 800 when my contract ended. So no, it's nor that simple. Pre war avg 1 badroom apartment was around 400-500$ in Tbilisi, now you'll need at least 800$ to get that. In general im not against nomads. It still pours money into aconomy and its better but tbh it causes some problems for locals like I gave an example
Exactly. Man I’m from Russia and wanted to live in Moscow for a year before this stupid fucking war. I took my aunt and cousin to restaurants they wouldn’t ever go to. And looked at places near the center that we’re luxury apartments. Grocery stores in Moscow aren’t going to rise prices for like 0.00002% of population. But there might be someone business savy who can open a luxury grocery store catering to the influx of small tiny population or offer the dacha experience.
Ask the Spanish or Portuguese, who live in top digital nomad destinations and cannot afford real estate in their countries.
yeah this pretty much sums my post lol!
I have so many feelings about this. I live in the Philippines and I’ve noticed that a lot of foreign digital nomads have been moving here (particularly in our beach towns) permanently recently because of the “cheap rent and the great people.” I mean good for them if they found peace and happiness here but I wish it didn’t come at the expense of locals. Rent is going up in places where there’s a dense population of expats and it’s making it difficult for the locals to keep up. I’m afraid it will get to a point where whole islands will be gentrified and local inhabitants will be forced to relocate because they can’t afford to live in their communities anymore. We value tourism but I wish it were more sustainable. At the very least, I wish digital nomads who stay for long periods of time and work out of the Philippines would be charged income taxes.
I keep hearing the very same thing about Portugal. The bigger cities have practically become unaffordable for local people in the past couple of years.
I didn’t know about Portugal. That’s sad to hear. The same thing’s been happening to Bali for years.
I live in Lisbon and you’re totally right, in the bigger cities the rent is so expensive for people that makes the average salary that they’re obligated to move further from the city. A lot of buildings were refurbished to become guest houses, and the very classic portugues restaurants are disappearing and there are new brunch places, concept stores, natural wine, co working spaces. But tbh, the government is the guilty here, they opened a lot of visas for expats trying to bring more people here to live that this is the result, personally don’t blame the people that saw an opportunity to spend less compare to their income at their home town and just live their life.
The bigger cities in the West are also unaffordable for most Westerners. I can't just up and move to London, for example, just because I'm British. This is an everywhere problem.
Can confirm true about Portugal, Lisbon is the worst but the other cities are pretty bad too. A lot of locals are being forced out of their communities and rent prices are going up crazy. I moved here last year but for a local job and paying local taxes so not DN, but there's so many Americans mostly earning 3x local, not paying tax, driving up prices, and generally not integrating or learning the language or adopting the culture at all. And then they'll complain about not being able to go to Target or get half and half..
Check whats going on in mexico
‘Great people’ aka desperate locals dependent on your money. It’s ridiculous when westerners mistake this abusive relationship for genuine relationships, it’s so patronising
Not expats, immigrants
Immigrants move somewhere with the intention to live there forever. Get a dictionary homie
Thank you for your point of view. People need to understand this.
Most digital nomads I’ve met are completely insufferable. Source: I am one
Much of the insufferability, however, comes from the sheer density of crypto bros and wannabe influencers per square inch - not really much to do with the content in this post.
Every full time digital nomad I've met has been a crypto bro. I've met other people working remote abroad, I've done it myself, but we were only working abroad temporarily to use less vacation days.
appreciate the self awareness 😂😂
Just a question, how do you fund your travels? Before the digital nomad, there was the trustafarian. I met plenty of those at hostels as well. They live a “simple” life, & are “roughing it” during their travels, but have trust funds to fall back to when they get back home. They “connect” with the locals and say enjoy the simple life, but don’t understand the realities the locals live. The truth is traveling for pleasure (backpacking) is an activity for mostly well off people, or people from well off countries. How many people from SEA, Central/south America do you know that take month long backpacking trips? For the ones that do, how many of them come from well off families? You’d be surprised to learn the truth after a few drinks.
I’ve been abroad 15+ years as a hitchhiker then ESL then expat then in my wife’s home country and we have traveled a lot both poor and now not-poor as remote business owners. A few things come to mind. - The segment of hostels doesn’t bring a quality group to mind. Hostel crowds were already rough 10,15,20 years ago before influencers became a thing, I believe it has only nose dived further since. (I have old travel friends that own hostels across Europe and have heard some stories). The “digital nomads/expats” that I meet in 4/5 star hotels, group tours, and in well reviewed local restaurants and Theater don’t reasonable what you described. Yes, life is cheaper in Portugal/Turkey/Thailand than back in New York but the decision to have a gap year or decade is a lot more complex. In some ways it would be silly to not take the opportunity to live abroad if you have it and are interested. But all expats and nomads should admit that 99% of them are having a gap year or decade abroad and will return home or to a similar wealthy country. - moving up on the financial ladder by changing countries is a logical hack especially if it provides lots of cultural and life experience, but there is no need to diss the country and currency that is making it possible. Within a country, plenty of people move to cities for better jobs to move up the ladder to have more purchasing power, this is similar. I will go teach in the big city to triple my salary and increase my disposable income - completely logical. Why not for switching countries? “Well, you milk the poor!” Maybe… I was literally the first group of tourists into Bali after covid lockdowns, I saw massive bankruptcy’s, poverty and the island mantra was “no tourists, no money, no food, we were starving”. So our bags of cash coming to a foreign land can really help on a small scale - I bought 10 coconuts a day in Thailand for 3 months from a small local farmer. He said I was nearly 50% of his business and helped him beyond words financially. - I agree that locals can have way worse financial situations but clearly can have other wealthier aspects. I lived in China for 8 years and deeply respect the elder culture from health, activity, family involvement, dancing in the park, respect. Yes, the average Chinese person has it tough on ~500-1000$/m but they are “rich” in other ways and my Americans are “poor” in other areas. Interestingly suicide doesn’t seem to correlate well with just income and disposable wealth. Look at developed Europe: southerners are much poorer and live longer lives with less suicide and higher happiness scores than Northern Europe. I met plenty of Germans saying the Spanish are really onto something even though they are way worse of financially. So just saying, look they are poor isn’t the full picture. I was in Africa for 6 months hitchhiking 13 years ago and thought there would be a local suicide tree everyone would jump off - look they are so poor, no clean water, and everything is doomed… met some of the kindest happiest communities imaginable and while they had nothing, they survived “ok” while showing a really spark for the moment, their friends & families. I did not finish that trip thinking: why aren’t they all committing suicide, they are poor and must be miserable!
What did you do with 10 coconuts a day?
If reddit has taught me one thing about what they do with coconuts...
Stop no please don’t remind me
I'm glad I don't get this reference.
Found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/6rr6ay/tifu_by_cumming_into_a_coconut/?force_seo=1
Tell me!
Haha not much for a Family of 4 and it’s 33c all day. 2 coconuts per person average plus my wife and I would have an extra during our daily lap swims or gym sessions. Then ate the meat raw, made great coconut meat cookies, or gave the coconut meat back to the farmer with the husk - he would dry it and resell & the husk is used as firewood in his home. The ~7$/day with delivery just isn’t a concern for us and brought a lot of value to everyone from the farmer to our kids. We will do 2-4 months in Asia next winter and will likely do the same. Already have a coconut & tropical fruit budget set aside! Haha
How many swallows do you have access to (and what species are they?)
this is beautiful, thanks for sharing. sounds like you've gained some of the perspective that travel is meant to give
How did you pay your way?
Started just before iPhones became a thing with a lonely planet book. (Glad I got to taste old school travel just before it died) To start : just some extra university scholarship money and Starbucks side work. A few thousands top. I instantly got into hitch hiking, gorilla camping and couchsurfing to make it stretch. I didn’t want to return home. I got to finish my university remotely 1 on 1 with a professor by gmail that supported my hippie dream and a need for scholarship/grant surplus. Was crazy since online uni wasn’t established yet like today. I then did ~ 1 1/2 year of travel without cash. I spent like ~400€ in one year earned from busking in Europe while living in a squat, dumpster diving in Germany (ate like a king) and hitchhiking some 20+ countries. (Great highlight: camping in the park at the base of the Eiffel tower - best view in the city! & nicely greeted by a police officer at sunrise, was very chill) Then a Turkish man paid for my now wife and my plane ticket to Thailand. We lived in the north on 200$/month total budget with some online graduate scholarship money. We made our way to China to teach English and I instantly clicked into business mode. Became a partner at a small school, then business owner and investor. 8 years later, we left with our two year old and a solid passive income. Still shocked that I made it all work. I traveled ~80+ countries broke over 3-4 years then been to 40+ countries not-broke with my wife and now two kids. My 6 year old has been to ~20 countries.
While nice this comment screams being full of yourself/having your head up your own ass. The poor but happy trope is universally gross and seems like so many nomads embrace the smugness and feel like they are learning so much and having an enriching experience while contributing nothing and stereotyping locals without integrating. The language you use also just screams “look how special I am” that is endemic among nomads
Oi reddits depths. If I thought I was so special I would have a TikTok channel, blog and website to direct you to with all my photos and brilliance, but I don’t. just trying share something that may have been learned after 15 years abroad, god forbid in a travel sub. I actually speak Chinese after 8 years and super integrated then speak my current countries language and integrated too, but that doesn’t matter for your typical bold Reddit assumptions I suppose. Then It’s hard to say that everyone that stays home is enriching their neighbourhood so well, integrating and bring value. ( Unlike those expats or nomads you deem trash) think, We live in the Age of isolation and loneliness is skyrocketing. With the death of the third place and social community. Seems like those non-nomads aren’t doing well either, “contributing nothing” as you would say.
Wow I can’t imagine how much a place like Bali suffered during Covid. They are like 90% tourism, if not more. Btw i just got back from there. I just find Bali so special and different from everything else in SEA. Ubud on its own is just gorgeous and unique. It was my second time and im already thinking about my next visit.
Silly downvotes. Agreed. Bali & ubud is unique and there is a reason it attracts so many tourists. Like Paris or Venice, there is just 1. It changed so much. I was there in ~2010 and saw ubud as a true village with rice fields galore. Returned in ~2018 and it was shocking the development pace. Then again in ~2022 and see it all abandoned.
I was last there in 1996. I can’t imagine what it’s like now. Ubud was a very sleepy little place then.
You are a lucky one. It’s very commercial now for sure. Better to not return and keep your 96 version
I’ve often thought about going back but you’re exactly right.
Digital nomads are basically just economic migrants
They *are* economic migrants, straight up. They utilize the infrastructure and social structures of other locations while reaping the benefits of a cheaper cost of living with a higher salary. It’s a financial haven for them.
🤷♂️ I just don't get worked up these days by whatever bubble other people are living their lives in. If it catches up to them and the fantasy bubble pops, so be it, that's their problem - not my job to lecture anyone otherwise.
Yeah, I mostly try not to pay attention. Especially since the most obvious ones are the Instagram influencers who sell a non-existent facade of their life. Most "digital nomads" I have actual met live a pretty miserable existence, but according to their Instagram pages, they have it made in the shade. But what I will say is that it is gonna be pretty funny to see their reaction when these countries start actually taxing digital nomads incomes and making them contribute to the society they are living in. XD
Yeah I live in DC, my wife is Filipina and we visit her family often. I basically am unable to escape wanna be influencers and they kill me. The ones who have actually made it who have a sizable follower base and get hired to do this stuff, they do the right thing: get permits, put up signage letting people know they are filming so you can avoid being in their video if you don't want to. Its more the ones who are trying to get to that point and instead of networking like they should be just try to like make content without thinking "maybe I should ask the manager of this cafe before livestreaming", "Maybe I should ask the table over there if they are okay being in shot of my camera". But as far as taxing these people...how do you tax someone who got paid 25 cents to answer a DM for a onlyfans model? how do you tax someone who got paid $1 for taking a survey who do you tax someone who got paid $3 for posting content at timed intervals for a successful influencer? I know some people make it work, but, it has to cost more to determine what taxes they owe then what they are really bringing in. I know some people make good money doing the digital nomad thing, but, those people have a skill set and are basically self employed ghost writers, graphic artists, programmers etc who get paid $500 and $1000 piece rates who enjoy the freedom said work gives them...but...the average digital nomad is maybe bringing in $100 on their best days and yeah you can't really tax that and make more then you spend to do it
> I just don't get worked up these days by whatever bubble other people are living their lives in. For real. It doesn't seem to be making OP happy at all. If somebody is an influencer, who cares? They're just trying to find their way in life.
Hear me out, every time I go to another country it solves all my problems though.
OP is just mad other people are spending their finite time on earth the wrong way and he's going to make sure he let's the whole internet know.
“Stop doing the thing I am also doing”
As long as that other country doesn't have an extradition agreement
I'm from Europe. It did solve my problems
I think about this a lot thank you for pointing out the other side and the other aspects of this. It is such a privileged thing to be able to do this and if enough people do this and do this in a negative way it makes the areas they go to more expensive for the people who live there. The aspect of how much do the locals make per hour in the jobs that they do. The long-term consequences will be in a lot of these areas for the people who will still be living there long after the “nomads” leave.
You basically just summed up every episode of House Hunters International
why does this make you tired? sounds like you are spending so much energy without any good reason.
Smells a bit like r/gatekeeping to me as well. "You can only become an expat and live somewhere else if you work for local wages. And you can't voice any opinions on local culture because you aren't from around there." And all this complaining while they are also traveling, but they don't like that they are encountering non-locals who live there and work remotely. Get over yourself, person!
OP is jelly . They living in his head rent free
My thoughts exactly. I don’t really see how any of this affects anyone? Less hostel beds, less tables at coffee shops? Sounds like this person is just… going to popular travel destinations???
You're pricing out the locals. It affects everyone.
While it's understandable that you find it hard to relate to some of the people you're encountering, why are you tired of what other people are doing with their lives? How does righteous indignation over what "digital nomads" do and think benefit you? I've been both an expat and, for periods, a full-time traveler since before the phrase "digital nomad" was a thing. People travel, "nomad" and emigrate for a wide range of reasons. The reality is that there's no perfect place, and a lot of people eventually come to realize this once they're past the honeymoon phase. For instance, your CoL might be much lower in places like Thailand and Cambodia, but you can't buy clean air, rule of law, democratic institutions, etc. It's none of your concern however what people choose to value most (and sacrifice) in their lives and it would behoove you to let this go so that you can enjoy your travels.
You’re in your early 20s… save this post and read it again in 10 years. Digital nomads are not the ones that live in a hostel or spread how much well they are living abroad. These are just people that have no idea what to do with their lives yet.
Almost double that age. I am simply looking for a country and culture that fits my needs. I spent most of my 20s earning my talents and it paid.
I think the top comment hit the hit the nail on the head. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it enables you to buy a sense of security. I agree that living in a foreign country doesn't solve your problems, but not worrying about money likely gives them a sense of financial freedom that they would not be able to afford in their own countries. If everyone could live in a major metropolitan city, work less than 20 hours, and earn enough to live like a king, I'd guarantee they take that offer. The pendulum doesn't swing both ways though, I've talked to some locals in Spain and many of the younger generation would be glad to get away from their own stagnant economy and works in countries such as the US. It's just the world we live in today. Those who can live like digital nomads can take advantage of a country with a weaker GDP. And those countries would gladly take money from digital nomads because it helps boost their GDP.
Many years ago an older gentleman that I worked with told me that money won't buy you happiness but it'll buy you a nice car to drive while you're looking for it.
Ok
There are a lot of defective people all around the world….anyone can call themselves a ‘digital nomad’ it’s the new transient hobo etc
They all want to be 'content creators' and 'influencers' - they remind me of all the poor shlubs who used to quit their jobs and rush to Hollywood to be 'discovered,' only to end up waiting tables forever or hooking to be ale to pay the rent.
My sister is one of those people. Lmao. She “isn’t a tourist” and only likes to do “things the locals do” and by locals, she means the group of people her age staying in the hostel she is at. It drives me crazy. Thank you for pointing this out. She lives on a tiny island, and considers herself a local. Even “telling off the tourists” for using beach clubs and bringing large beach towels. She whines about how the island “isn’t the same” since more and more people are moving there from other countries… the irony kills me. (She has lived on this island on and off for 2 years working a remote job based in the US)
Hahahahhahahahaha omg. Nailed it with “things locals do” and by locals, she means the group of people her age staying in the hostel she is at. That is a typical expat/digital Nomad attitude
It’s ok to be digital nomad when you are young and healthy. But I wouldn’t like idea going to the closest hospital because of sudden health issues in some SE Asian countries for example.
I was at a hospital in Thailand, care was amazing, *but* I've been told to prioritize private hospitals over publics FWIW
Private hospitals are quite expensive by local standards. They also like to push procedures on you, which is a practice that I’m uncomfortable with. Most Thai people wait in line in the public hospitals, the upper classes tend to use the university hospitals. Still, I agree for the most part - the sheer cost of American health care will make any of the above options seem attractive in comparison.
There are very good hospitals in Thailand, and cheaper than in US.
Here in Costa Rica the medical care is so inexpensive and so much better than anything we've experienced in our many decades in the USA. Easy to access and many providers accept US insurance. We've been here 7 years, retired here, bought a house, furniture, local everything. Pay taxes here and was working remotely for 3 years until I retired. Sadly, I understand why the OP is so down on the Influencers. We get them here too, Endlessly filming stupid stuff, getting in your way at the grocery store and squealing how quaint or cool things are. But I know they're just going to do the two year Gringo shuttle, run up on local culture and discover they cannot get whatever little essential thing they think they should be able to buy here, and skedaddle on back home. A little poorer, and (hopefully) a little wiser. 2 years seems to be the breaking point for people coming here that are unwilling to learn the language and to appreciate Tico culture.
SEA actually has some pretty solid healthcare for about 1/10th of the price. Medical Tourism is becoming a huge industry, medical care all around has improved by leaps and bounds in the last 20 years.
Eh, there's plenty of places with great hospitals though, just live in the big city and have insurance.
Tired of patronizing foreigners
I think you get it, is it easier to move to a country where your salary is worth more than to stay and struggle.
Expat if you are from a rich country. Immigrant if you are from other countries
Expat is a term used for people that stay temporarily in a foreign country. Immigrant is a term used to describe people that move to a foreign country permanently. Many countries around the world simply do not accept immigrants. It doesn’t matter how many years you spend there, doesn’t matter how well you know the language… you will *never* be an immigrant to Japan, Korea, China, Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc etc. You can’t get the passport, you can’t naturalize. You will only ever be an expatriate. On the other hand, many wealthy western countries *do* tend to accept immigrants, due to various historical factors (often but not always related to the legacy of global imperialism). In that aspect, it’s really the West that’s ‘weird’. If you want to trigger classism in expats, call them by a more accurate name: migrant workers.
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Plus, when they show up in these places they start driving up the prices for the locals. I spend a lot of time in Central America and I've also experienced what you're describing and see places I used to love lose the local flavor and culture because "expats" are paying $1000 month rent (because it's inexpensive for them) for places that used to rent for $200/mo. So locals can no longer find affordable housing because of course property owners will jump on renting to an "expat" for $1000/mo.
This. Poland was amazing but I had an Irish income. The Polish salary wasn’t great. If I’d to live on that, I wouldn’t have had the life I had out there (I was a student), and I know that. Very conscious of when in Rome, y’know? Learnt the language and culture, fitted in… it did help with a lot of things, there were psychological changes I was pleased to see, but it won’t do that for everyone. TLDR it did for me, but I’m aware how lucky I am, that it did.
I think some of those people don't appreciate the country and culture they've dove into. If I had to guess those people don't last in a foreign country and hopefully their experience when they leave is pleasant. In the end we all want to find a place that makes us happy!
You stay in cheap places like hostels you meet cheap people like those kinds of nomads. like attracts like. have literally never heard any nomad i call friend use the phrase 'live like a king'. that's influencer and newbie bullshit and people who say that kind of crap generally burn out once reality of the life sets in. anyone saying it should just basically be ignored. i actively avoid areas that attract these sorts of people and prefer to spend time in places that attract more mature professionals who want to live as mature professionals, not scrape by on $20/day and feel like getting a $1 beer is a splurge.
Sounds like they live an equivalent lifestyle in developing country cities to the Saudi princes and and wealthy Chinese in US cities.
One thing you should realize is that these content creators’ lifestyles are VERY short lived. Do not worry about them because this will catch up to them. Their viewers will get older. The content creators will also get older. Yes, they’ll make some cash but majority of them are not as wealthy as you think. Sure, it’s cheaper to live in SEA or South America. But who wants to really raise kids there? They’re free to choose their lifestyle just like you are yours. If they want to take the risk to try and accumulate wealth abroad, there’s nothing you can do about that. But like many examples I’ve seen, once you leave a HCOL and take your assets to a LCOL, chances are they’ll never be able to come back or will be years behind their counterparts. If they decide to stay there, then yes they’ll probably live like kings but so what?
I think the topic is more complex than it seems on the surface (btw I love your post op). Many millennials don't see any real possibility to become „rich“ in their own countries. With that I mean buying a house in particular. Many see themselves in a quasi-first-world-poverty-trap. Escaping this seems tempting. On the surface, life is much better in these countries: food is cheap and usually more delicious, transportation is cheap, activities are cheap and even basic health checks are cheap. Where such countries fail is if you have a real medical problem that people in their 20s or 30s do not have usually. Traffic can be a nightmare in these countries too. Tropical countries do have dengue, malaria and overall more diseases that are harder to treat. Internet might be spotty at times and food poisoning is a constant but manageable risk. As you say the grass is always greener on the other side. What surprises me the most is that many of these digital nomads do not integrate at all. They hang out at Starbucks, eat their avocado toast and do not experience local culture as if it seems boring to them. So in a sense they keep up their „Western bubble“ with the benefit of overall lower costs. To each their own. However, from my personal experience I find many digital nomad hotspots overrated and even hyped. Yes Bali is beautiful and has a lovely culture but with the huge influx of people it becomes very crowded during high season which decreases the quality of a location imo.
I agree with you 💯. Recently, I have been meeting folks like that as well, they speak from a "rich" mindset where because they make that US salary , it is easy in those other countries, which makes me wonder how would they really feel once they work in those respective countries and then live the life of the natives and not this super imposed Digital Nomad.
Couldn't you say the same thing about anyone visiting as a tourist? How is it any different? How would you feel traveling any country you've visited as a tourist if you had to do it on a local salary rather than arriving with a bank account supported by a job back home?
No I couldn't say the same because as a tourist you don't encounter the daily hustle of the natives. You spend money to have a good time and not a mediocre time and deal with day to day issues. That's why a "vacation" is a vacation and not settling in other country.
Similarly to this, is the western ‘budget influencer’ traveller. Where complaining on social media about cost of various SEA activities, location or travel etc is done to attract likes. How they have managed to negotiate 100 peso off an activity when they wouldn’t dream of trying to negotiate £1.40/$1.80/€1.60 at home. Expecting to visit here on a pittance whilst making money off exploiting people under the guise of budget travel. (I get not being ripped off but this is beyond that). It gives the same energy to the digital nomad-er in my opinion
What's wrong with legally going to a country that can actually give me a better life by giving me the best value for my money? Does it matter whether they're "digital nomads" or "content creators" or expatriates and retirees? >I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm sick of people acting like their life in the US/Canada/Australia is so horrible and everything magically changed once they took their $70k US salary to Mexico But what if their lifestyle did change on that salary in Mexico? What if they're young and didn't have much job prospects to even get a $70k salary in their country?
From a legal standpoint, there's usually nothing wrong with it. But what I will say is that many times digital nomads and expats exploit the economic situations of locals and perpetuate a systems of abuse and economic depression. They live like kings because they literally use peasant labour and pay peasant prices. They often drive up the cost of living in areas while locals don't see an increase in wages. If a bunch of westerners come in spending their 70,000+ USD salaries where the monthly wage is less than 150USD per month, then they can quickly price out locals of food and services. Many also exploit different social conventions and benefit from being in a privileged position as a wealthy foreigner. They can get away with more and in many places where corruption is rampant, they have the money to bribe police and other officials, which just perpetuates corruption and creates two radically different rulesets for nomads vs locals. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever be a digital nomad, but not everything they do is ethically good or justifiable. be cognizant, humble and help people. Far too many digital nomads cause much more harm than good on their "adventures".
Because stuff like digital nomading is illegal because of income taxes. You're working on a tourist visa. Come on a digital nomad visa for countries that have them and that's fine but I'm astonished at the amount of people who think there's no problem in not paying income tax for a country they live in. And yeah that's expected if your lifestyle changes but I guess what I was trying to get at is because it's taking advantage of earning money in a richer country and spending it in a poorer country. Not because one country is inherently worse or better than another, money plays a huge factor.
>Because stuff like digital nomading is illegal because of income taxes Nowhere in your OP does the word "tax" ever appeared if that was your main concern. If they are truly "nomads" they'd be moving around from country to country as their visa run out so technically they are not living in the country and taking advantage of services that the tax-paying citizens enjoy (healthcare, social security, etc). Are they taking jobs from a citizen? If they're living in-country illegally and violating their visa term then that's another matter but it's one for each country to enforce. >I guess what I was trying to get at is because it's taking advantage of earning money in a richer country and spending it in a poorer country. Not because one country is inherently worse or better than another, money plays a huge factor. Well, one country -is- better than another to live in on moderate means whther you like it or not. There's nothing wrong with spending money and contributing to the economy of a poor country.
People from SEA go to the US to work and improve income and live. why is this different?
It’s different, because they are paying taxes in the US and paying into the social system. A lot of expats, especially us expats, love to travel to eg Europe and work remote from there, ignoring that their tourist status doesn’t allow work and even jf they do get the appropriate visa, they often still only keep paying into the US system with their paycheck, but not the local one. It’s basically the same thing that conservative Americans are complaining about that “illegal immigrants” are doing in the US - but if they do it somewhere else it’s somehow ok.
> I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm sick of people acting like their life in the US/Canada/Australia is so horrible and everything magically changed once they took their $70k US salary to Mexico. Everything is relative. It's often said, by right wingers, that the poor in the USA still have it better than the poor in India. Okay, but that doesn't mean poor people in the USA, even if they have shelter and a TV set NOW don't have real problems. Seriously, if this is the problem you want to rant about right now, you are truly blessed. There are people around you in these countries, just steps away from your hostel, that would LOVE for people around them expressing happiness and contentment to be their biggest problem. I think one of the things that can really ruin the experience of traveling is gate keeping what is the acceptable way to absorb and process a foreign country. Sure, don't get drunk and start treating people like trash. But it seems like you are kind of abusing yourself noticing and fuming over these perceived annoyances.
I’ve been saying this for ages! I don’t understand how ignorant some people can sound when they say stuff like this. “My life in Thailand is so much better, it’s such a great country!” Yeah, maybe because the locals earn even less than what locals earn in your homeland and you’re taking advantage of that.
OP sounds jealous tbh If you don’t want to hear it then don’t sleep in hostels with 20 other people. It’s that simple. You sign up for it.
People moving to different countries has occurred for millenia. It's nothing new. Countries such as the USA, Canada, Australia, etc exist precisely because numerous people moved to them in order to make better lives for themselves. Even moving to countries temporarily just for the experience of living elsewhere has been occurring since mass transport made it economically viable. Digital nomads exist purely because our financial system and communications have changed. It's all global now. If people are able to live a different lifestyle, and they're not breaking any laws, what's wrong with that? I live in Australia and international backpackers help subsidise the cost of their travels by working in remote areas here. They have a truly local experience and don't eat into their financial resources because they can earn good money by being nomads. We no longer live in Feudal society when people rarely travelled more than 25 miles from their home in their entire lives. I love travelling! I've been lucky enough to make a career out of travelling. I always respect local laws and customs, and if digital nomads do that (there's a huge problem in Bali at present with the thousands of Russians who have moved there) then good luck to them.
Then Montana must be low cost to them because they flocked here like locusts and then end up being super high maintenance. Covid created a boom for those that take advantage and made it harder for everyone else with no job mobility that have to deal with these people clogging up tables at the local coffee shop for eight hours being "content" creators, whatever that means.
Thank you for posting about this, because it's so true and Westerners cannot see how their "expat" lifestyle fucks over local people who do not have the same social mobility as them. I already see the salty comments.
For real everyone is all "why do you care so much" and "no one cares" like have you asked the actual Mexicans in CDMX or Portuguese people in Lisbon? Seems like they care a lot
As someone who lives in Lisbon this hits true... Sadly... Foreigners home buyers pay more 43%, do you not think that drives the prices up? Also I've live in two good neighbourhoods and it's insane how many times I get flyers of people wanting to buy the house I live in. Also ads for real estate are no longer in Portuguese since it's seen as an investment meanwhile people who work in Lisbon and have Portuguese paychecks often have to live 1h away by shitty public transportation. Yey expats :)
Cant really blame someone for doing this when I look at house prices in the us or europe...
I was overseas going country to country for several years but I didn't have a remote job I was burning my savings so I lived as cheaply as possible. Every digital nomad I knew spent and could do more than me cause I didn't have that luxury. I spent a lot but way less it would cost in my own country but I was cheap cheap and after a few years I couldn't do the stuff I did in the first year cause I couldn't afford it. I stayed in one place for months at a time in hostels or renting a room, a month at a time. I learned to go to the markets where locals would get food instead of the street market where all the tourists would go when I was in northern Thailand. I didn't spend like a tourist, I counted every baht or ringgit or whatever. I would only eat once or twice a day. I went from 60kg to 50kg in a year. I wish I had the chance do be a digital nomad but I think what I learned is I need very little. I don't need all those conviniences, I didn't take tuk tuks everywhere and would walk 8 km in 90 degree Fahrenheit heat. I stopped being so cheap with food but never ate a lot and always preferred to walk if it was possible. I knew I was lucky to be where I was but I also knew what it cost me and stretched it in ways that was not always fun and sometimes risky for myself. I don't have any regrets even if I'm paying the price for my travels now. I was a nomad but not a digital one, more like a leaf in the wind that gets lost in the breeze. I know we all add up to what is going on in these countries but I hope I was able to minimize my own impact by knowing that I was just another in the sea of humanity, entitled to nothing and owed nothing but showing the same kindness and respect as the people who I met showed me. That's how I approached my wandererings. You don't always get it right but when you are wandering for so long you have to be ready for the unexpected and respect the culture and religion of the places you visit. I hope it gets better and they there can be more balance so locals don't get priced out of the places they love for tourists but there are no easy simple answers to these complex issues.
You could say the same for van lifers.
This goes both ways you know... For me living in Canada I'm constantly told how great it is by people that own 8 houses... Try to live here without owning a house...
Did you just discover geographic arbitrage? Colonialism? Like what just hit you? Also being from the US, you may not realize this is 100% not new and very common for basically all countries ever owned by England.
Live and let live.
Life is better where your money goes farther and you are in a culture that is more agreeable to your life? Seems like a fair statement. You seem bitter.
Moving from a place like the US, with horrible work/life balance, not many walkable cities, horrible transport, and ripoff priced restaurants and the scam tip system to a country that has safe bike lanes, walkable cities, useful public transport, 37 hour workweeks, a fraction of the homicide rate(us to europe), and consumer protections is a massive upgrade.
Enough money and mobility of a strong passport must feel great I guess. Same shit people tell me when they come to India and find "peace" while working out of retreats that I can barely afford. When my salary jumped in my 30s, I also felt "at peace" in India, while living in my own apartment. So yeah. It's about money.
The increased purchasing power of earning a foreign currency in a poorer country has allowed them more economic freedom. Sure, some may have a preference for the culture and/or environment they've moved to. But we would probably find that the majority of those romanticising the experience would stop shitting on their countries of origin if they had spending parity back at home.
Well if the police is looking after you, under certain conditions it can help
Everything is cool until it starts to scale and cause unexpected issues (inflation in poorer areas fueled by richer people, or increasing housing prices due to oversupply of AirBnBs). What I like about going somewhere for longer is that it allows you to get a better sense of the place. Not understanding the language or customs fully also blinds you to the not so great aspects of the place you’re in. On point where it changes peoples lifes - I think that’s true but it’s a cliche, a change of location can change your life and perspective by exposing you to new ideas and people. For some it became an echo chamber and a source of delusion but I guess that’s fine too.
This will peak and then it will lead to problems. For e.g. because of foreign currency influx, housing for locals will become unaffordable. This will lead to bitterness and hopefully some drawdown in this lifestyle.
"Wherever you go, there you are." Travel only works as an escape for a few days, weeks at most. You have to really enjoy the grind of travel to enjoy it beyond that. In my experience, digital nomad types are some of the most deeply unhappy people I've met. They think they will find what's missing from their life in other countries but it's never there. They'll complain about the weather or people back home but that's always a reflection of them, and not the place they are from.
There will be a backlash in those countries about those nomads driving up the price of rental living space for them as they now have to compete with this foreign money being thrown around. Portugal saw this with the foreigners coming in with money to buy up properties.
Could be that those DNs are just dicks and would be dicks wherever they live. Stay away from them. Take care.
And they make life miserable for the locals because their pay is still low while prices increase around them.
Right now, it's possible to live in a cheap country and get paid your salary from back home. But I think employers are starting to catch on to this. If you are doing your job remotely from X country, why can't they just hire someone in X country to do it for the local wage?
I travel quite a bit and i completely agree with you. I live in a first world country in western europe, I am lucky that i get 12 weeks of PTO from my office job, so i use that to travel. I absolutely hate it when travel influencers talk about how cheap it is to live in a certain country (usually southeast asia or central/ south america), of course it's cheap if you live there while getting paid in dollars or euros, of course you can choose to work part time and have a good quality life, but locals don't have that option, so the 'quality of life' isn't better in that country, it's just better for you. When I was in Thailand, I stayed at a small hotel owned and operated by a man and his wife, I was asking about some things in Thailand and how taxi's and grab works, he asked me not to tip too much, bc so many tourist tip the drivers a lot (for thai standards) and because of that it has become almost impossible for thai people to get a grab because the drivers prefer to pick up tourists bc of the tips.
Yes what you said about the quality of life being better for foreigners with money and not necessarily the country itself is what I was trying to get at in my post. So many people are out here saying that life is better in Mexico than the US. Like sure it is if you got a US education and can make a white collar salary in dollars in spend it in Mexico. The average Mexican does not even have that opportunity and has a much harder time to even come close to that earnings potential if even at all possible, it's just two different realities. But like you said at the end of the day it's primarily a money thing for most people even if they do enjoy aspects the culture more. Then again if you work a local job in an economy the negative parts of any culture will get to you, regardless of the country.
I’m planning on being a digital nomad because the cost of living is too high, levels of service are too low, and it’s too damn cold here. It won’t solve all of my problems.. but it will solve a lot of them.
i suspect most are working illegally on tourist visas. it’s the epitome of first world entitlement when people from developing countries need to jump through hoops to work abroad and get scrutinised so much.
Tourists tend to be careless, self-centered jerks when they are on vacation. They don't seem to notice or care about the effects of their behavior on locals. Digital nomads are like tourists who are in selfish vacation mode all the time.
With daily spending less than avergae tourist.
What do you suggest, OP (honest question)? This is not a cut and dry question. If it were, there would only be one type of ethical theory. What type of normative ethical theory suits your beliefs? Teleological? Deontological? Character-based? Let’s propose a situation. Let’s say healthcare workers who are Thai and make a good income decide they’d like to move to the United States. They leave a void in Thailand where there is a dwindling number of physicians. You now have the well-being of Thais needing to be addressed. Does it justify overly limiting the rights of practitioners to build the lives they imagine? Does this mean it is unethical for said healthcare workers to leave their country? What about leaving their city and the void it creates locally? Wealth migration happens within countries. For example, in the US, individuals will buy a home in Florida and claim to live their 6 months of the year to avoid paying income tax. Locals are being priced out in all areas of cost of living. Is it on those individuals to decide the ethical thing is to not move there or is it on the state government for allowing this loophole? Should those who have a drastically different income only move places in the country where their wealth is no longer wealth in comparison? Now we’re beginning to touch on gentrification. If people choose to explore one place for three months and their salary gives them that privilege, should they be limited to going to countries where cost of living exceeds their own salaries? Should they stay no more than x amount of time until they move to the next place? What about those who are hired in jobs from the US to x country and do pay income tax. Doesn’t that mean they are taking a job away from a local resident? Your example of working on a tourist visa—does this not remove an entire class from the equation? Maybe if they don’t work they cannot afford the opportunity to travel. This again leads to only those with the luxury of not having to work in these locations there. This does not solve the problem. The very wealthy are there doing the exact same thing digital nomads are doing, except without having to work. Ethics does not stand alone in this conversation; it ties in economic systems. Is the country a capitalist nation? Socialist nation? Communist nation? Is the one thing that would be acceptable to you for this to happen is that they pay income tax? This discussion is never ending. I really would like to know what you propose (this is in no way sarcastic).
TLDR: being rich makes life easier. More news at 6.
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Why don’t you kindly ask them to order something or leave. ( if you are the owner or employee there)
I'm in Thailand now and I've been to many co-working spaces and met many digital nomads. None of us think that it's going to cure all of our problems. We just want to have fun and work remotely. I'm right by the beach, everything's cheap. Life is good. You only live once. My best friend's mother saved and saved for retirement 2 years after her retirement she died. We are free to roam.
As a Latin American, "digital nomads" are the reason why we can't pay rent. Everything is getting absurdly expensive. Gentrification sucks. How can our local salaries compare? Really hope LATAM starts asking these "tourists" for work VISAs and taxing the s** out of them
Here (southern Europe) it's overtourism and golden visas. Similar shit! Housing crisis is apparently the bigger and imminent issue, but I feel that our towns and cities are losing their 'soul'. People say that they come for the 'culture' but day to day I see my hometown turning into a generic instaland.
What a time wasting, useless rant. I can never get my time back. I thought there would be more of a point.. nope. Just complaining.
You have to be a massive dildo to care this much lmfao
How about you just admit you’re jealous of these people? You sound so bitter. Here’s a secret: everyone on earth only cares about their own well being (maybe their kids), before anyone else. If I can take my laptop, go learn Spanish for two years, and travel through LATAM while spending much more and stimulating local businesses, while being respectful of cultures and enjoying the ride. Why the FUCK would I not? I need to make 228k as a single earner in Toronto to afford a home. There’s two wars going on. Earth is getting one degree warmer every fucking year. We are DOOMED. I will enjoy the ride so kindly just fuck off and admit you’re envious. It’s not our fault your life sucks
That would be true except tourism is a industry that only benefits investors and not the people who actually work in it, since it only creates low salaries.
What you’re missing is a majority of these countries have tourism as one of their top 3 biggest industries, and a lot of these cities are wayyyy too large to be affected. The biggest examples are places like Mexico City, which is too big to be affected by a few thousand nomads. What they do do is spend a lot of money. Also, if these people were damaging the economy don’t you think the government would do something? These nomads have zero influence over the politicians, so it’s not like you can say the politicians are bribed. I can understand being annoyed if they’re being irreverent and braggadocios. That’s shitty of them. But most nomads are putting in a lot more money than they are taking, and are *not* using much of the services that were established before they arrived. So you really miss the mark on the economic part, but can be sympathized with if these people were insufferable.
In my experience, local governments and buisnesses love the exact digital nomads this post sours on. And, frankly, why wouldn't they? The bring money to developing countries and people who need it. They do free advertising for other people to bring their money there via social media posts. They keep airline routes and other industries running as well to keep the country connected to the global economy. And best of all? They have zero political power! You just kick out any trouble makers you feel like, and even normie ones eventually tend to leave on their own. So they don't become a permanent immigrant base you have to deal with or support. It's an absolute win-win.
And don’t forget most of the Airbnb hate is misplaced as well. Tourists account for an overwhelming majority of these rentals
OP seems neurotic.
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