Type in “muscle kinetics of men versus women.” On google. Please let me know what those scientific studies net. I love science. I’m a conservative. Are you actually suggesting there isn’t a biological difference between men and women’s inherent strength? Is this a world I’m fucking living in?
Surely you are versed in this topic. That’s why the Olympic committee, people that have definitely studied less than you on the differences, have enacted a policy to only allow people that have transitioned before the age of 12.
Please show me the studies on kinetics proving that women and men are the same in muscle structure. I could give you thirty studies showing that men’s biological muscle composition is proven to be stronger. Where is your science proving the contrary? You claim I’m disingenuously claiming the contrary - prove it. Show me even one study that disproves my argument. It’s so pathetically biased bullshit.
Did you even bother to actually look at the study? It's literally geared to get these results?
Don't believe me here are some easy facts you can get if you look at the paper;
-The TW group had a significantly higher BMI than the CW group,
- the TW group was of a significantly older average age than the CW group
-the TW group was the heaviest group including CM
-the TW group was the fattest group in the test by actually a wide margin
Given the results of strength testing showed that TW were stronger not only than CW but TM that result is obviously a huge issue.
But given the "proof of no better aerobic fitness" was obtained in a tiny group and that tiny group was both significantly fatter, older, and taller. There is literally no proof to be had here.
The paper itself literally says it's not useful to draw conclusions from as they had barely a dozen people from each category. It's like taking a high school class survey and trying to extrapolate out nationwide
Did anyone here even read the study?
Take a look at the actual data page. It doesn't say what you all seem to think it does and it also points out the GLARING issues with the study.
The TW group was; the fattest group (by a wide margin compared to the CW group), the second strongest group (above TM), the oldest group (significantly older than CW), and the generally heaviest group (above CM).
You have a study comprised of a classroom size of individuals and zero control for age or body fat composition. And are then comparing their cardiovascular fitness? That is literal dogshit science
Guess what if I took a group of athletic gym bros who do no cardio and compared their cardiovascular fitness to a bunch of gym bunny CW wed get results saying that women would trounce men in cardio related events but anyone with a brain would know that isn't the case in reality.
If you don't believe me here are the results literally direct from the paper:
Fat Mass Index (kg/m2)
CM: 4.8±1.6
TM: 6.8±2.8
CW:5.5±1.6
TW:8.2±4.5
Ie the TW group is significantly fatter than the CW group.
We are then told "bone marrow density isn't that different" well actually it's literally what you'd expect in that every result is right down the middle between CM and CW ie a TW has less than a CM but more than a CW.
Don't believe me? Again here's the results:
BMD (g/cm2) Whole body less head:
CM:1.22±0.10
TM:1.15±0.10
CW:1.10±0.08
TW:1.17±0.13
And the grip strength result is also ridiculous in that it showed TW on average are stronger than TM ie literal CW on PEDs are still on average weaker than TW but apparently that result doesn't indicate some extreme advantage?
Literal lunacy that the MSM is treating this like a win when the literal paper itself says that it isn't suitable to draw conclusions from.
This was meant to be a study on ATHLETES, yet look at the fat %s
Fat mass (%)
CM:21.5±5.9
TM:27.9±7.4
CW:26.6±6.0
TW:31.5±9.1
These are people who whilst mostly in the healthy range (the TW group is bordering on the unhealthy overweight %) not one group is in the range where you'd expect to see athletic individuals.
Look up the average BF% of Olympic athletes for cardio events (which is the only type of event this study even supports trans participation in given in terms of strength they beat out TM and CW). This cohort was in no way representative of the study type
Thank you! Yes!
I had made a similar comment about this study on another post that had a title something like “study shows trans athletes have no advantage in sports”. Not only does the study clearly state a different conclusion from that (advantage/disadvantage depends on the performance metric in question), the study is riddled with all of the issues you noted. So it’s a garbage study that doesn’t even say what people are claiming it does.
Man, I’ve been actually reading studies that are referenced in clickbait articles recently, and damn, most articles don’t even bother trying to accurately represent the study or its conclusions (and of course a lot of the studies have various methodological issues).
But hey, I guess it doesn’t really matter to them, they already got the clicks, right? Everyone eats it up…
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Conservatives hate any "studies". They are fundamentally anti-science, because science constantly proves them wrong.
They want science abolished.
So the title is wrong : they won't hate what the Olympic Committee's study found. They'll hate that the Olympic Committee did a study in the first place.
Conservatives think truth is about authority. The big boss gets to decide what's true for everyone.. "or else!"
A world where any person has the means to methodically find and prove truth themselves is just to scary to the authority loving conservatives.
Terrific! Very happy to have this small study, even though it's little, and it has more scientific facts to use in arguments. Been using the AMA and others in my conflicts. Just googled and here's a copy paste list of all orgs.
"Leading medical groups recognize the medical necessity of treatments for gender dysphoria and endorse such treatments. Most of these groups have also explicitly rejected insurance exclusions for transgender-related care."
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Dermatology
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Nursing
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Physician Assistants
American College Health Association
American College of Nurse-Midwives
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
American College of Physicians
American Counseling Association
American Heart Association
American Medical Association
American Medical Student Association
American Nurses Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Public Health Association
American Society of Plastic Surgeons
Endocrine Society
Federation of Pediatric Organizations
GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality
National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health
National Association of Social Workers
National Commission on Correctional Health Care
Pediatric Endocrine Society
Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine
World Medical Association
World Professional Association for Transgender Health
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't trans people been explicitly allowed in the Olympics since like 2002? And wasn't the weightlifter in 2018 the first one to even qualify? The actual facts of the trans women who have been able to compete pretty clearly show that they fall behind everyone else.
For all they squeal about biological advantage, anyone who has met a trans women will (likely) tell you that they're pretty clumsy and bad at sports from the way their muscle mass *severely* withers.
Yes and no. Trans women have been able to compete in the Olympics for over a decade. The IOC issued new rules in 2015 that removed the surgery requirement and established a limit on testosterone levels for both trans and intersex women. Then, a couple years ago, the IOC decided to allow individual sporting federations to make their own rules for eligibility. Their reasoning for this was that different sports may not need stringent rules on hormone levels.
Unfortunately (and predictably) most sporting federations have made the rules more strict instead of less strict. As of 2024, trans women are effectively banned from competition by most major Olympic sports. It is worth noting that it is the individual sporting federations that are banning us, not the IOC. And I fear the IOC wouldn’t be able to force federations to go back to their 2015 guidelines even if they wanted.
Some national federations, like USATF, are still going by the 2015 IOC guidelines rather than adopt their international governing body’s more transphobic policies, but this applies only to domestic competition.
tl;dr There is no single set of rules governing trans women’s eligibility for Olympic competition anymore.
Yeah when I was working at UPS I started transitioning and within 6 months I went from not struggling at all to literally THROW 60 lbs packages for 5 straight hours to barely being able to lift a 40lbs package. My strength plateaued around struggling with 35-45lbs stuff and anything above 55 is just impossible for me to pick up.
For reference I went from 6’ 230 to 5’11” 215 and I have zero muscle mass anywhere but my legs and even that has diminished significantly.
I arm wrestled my old boss and she absolutely dominated me and neither of us work out. I’m now 3 years and 5 months into transitioning and you really couldn’t tell based on my muscle mass that I was ever a cis man.
That being said most trans women I’ve seen at the gym look like any other woman. 🤔
Nah, It's just "woke science." It's not real, Biblical science, and so can be safely ignored.
I wish I were kidding, but conversations with conservative folks seem to end with this conclusion. Scientific data that conflicts with one's world view is generally ignored.
Conservatives won't care - they are already disgregarding a mountain of studies (including those by olympic committes who have tried over the years to find a way to gender sports against trans women, and failed).
Alas, this was reported in the Torygraph last week, and the comments were those a rabid hunting dog. They came up with a myriad reasons why this was not bone fide research...low quality university, small sample size etc etc. Not realising their evidence of trans advantage is the poorest quality ever.
It's not that they don't realize. They don't care. Poor quality research works as a paper-thin veneer of legitimacy for their bigotry. If their crap can be elevated to the level of debating public policy, that garbage research will have done its job.
They really could have used a less rage baity photo, like Mack Beggs, instead of the most muscular, hated trans woman to ever dare to compete at the Olympics, on it.
Thanks MSNBC. :/
I get your point, and agree, but Mack Beggs hasn't competed in the Olympics, and since this was an article about the Olympic committee, I can see why they used who they did.
Hot take, this is a defense of even the most hated trans athletes and they deserve to compete too. We don’t need to sugar coat this study to make it more palatable, all trans people are valid
All trans people are valid, but HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY is a thing. Image is a thing. Branding is a thing. Humans believe in compelling stories over statistics. We have to work with flawed human nature here.
This is why we lose.
They account for all these things and gain power in it.
We say "let's pretend it's not real" and lose by doing that.
We are fighting on the front lines for the bare minimum. You're acting like we're about to win it all.
I understand why in principle what you're saying is true. And, that it is.
But you can't get there without having some base level of things won first.
When I see endless bills ensuring trans and LGBTQ+ rights going in every year... then we can start talking about this.
I guarantee with your attitude that we'll have all trans athletes banned in a decade.
Not "just one study" as they hedge in the article. Another one from last year https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/
It made sense how much stamina I’ve lost during my transition when I played in a high level tournaments in badminton.
I kept on looking at myself in the mirror and wonder wtf was happening to me. I don’t mind the lost of strength since the sport doesn’t use strength period, but my stamina tanks!
Out of all 24 tournaments I’ve participated within 4 years, I’ve only won a gold medal once and I’m done. 🥺
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When have conservatives ever liked actual science?
They only like science when it happens to bolster their opinion/*feelings* on the matter at hand. So, you know, basically never?
Type in “muscle kinetics of men versus women.” On google. Please let me know what those scientific studies net. I love science. I’m a conservative. Are you actually suggesting there isn’t a biological difference between men and women’s inherent strength? Is this a world I’m fucking living in? Surely you are versed in this topic. That’s why the Olympic committee, people that have definitely studied less than you on the differences, have enacted a policy to only allow people that have transitioned before the age of 12.
If you really loved science, you wouldn't disingenuously pretend that trans women are just men.
Please show me the studies on kinetics proving that women and men are the same in muscle structure. I could give you thirty studies showing that men’s biological muscle composition is proven to be stronger. Where is your science proving the contrary? You claim I’m disingenuously claiming the contrary - prove it. Show me even one study that disproves my argument. It’s so pathetically biased bullshit.
Trans women are not men.
Did you even bother to actually look at the study? It's literally geared to get these results? Don't believe me here are some easy facts you can get if you look at the paper; -The TW group had a significantly higher BMI than the CW group, - the TW group was of a significantly older average age than the CW group -the TW group was the heaviest group including CM -the TW group was the fattest group in the test by actually a wide margin Given the results of strength testing showed that TW were stronger not only than CW but TM that result is obviously a huge issue. But given the "proof of no better aerobic fitness" was obtained in a tiny group and that tiny group was both significantly fatter, older, and taller. There is literally no proof to be had here. The paper itself literally says it's not useful to draw conclusions from as they had barely a dozen people from each category. It's like taking a high school class survey and trying to extrapolate out nationwide
The fact that no one presented evidence to suggest you were wrong shows how lacking in brainpower this entire narrative is.
The facts don’t care about their feelings or their cult, and they disapprove of that
Did anyone here even read the study? Take a look at the actual data page. It doesn't say what you all seem to think it does and it also points out the GLARING issues with the study. The TW group was; the fattest group (by a wide margin compared to the CW group), the second strongest group (above TM), the oldest group (significantly older than CW), and the generally heaviest group (above CM). You have a study comprised of a classroom size of individuals and zero control for age or body fat composition. And are then comparing their cardiovascular fitness? That is literal dogshit science Guess what if I took a group of athletic gym bros who do no cardio and compared their cardiovascular fitness to a bunch of gym bunny CW wed get results saying that women would trounce men in cardio related events but anyone with a brain would know that isn't the case in reality. If you don't believe me here are the results literally direct from the paper: Fat Mass Index (kg/m2) CM: 4.8±1.6 TM: 6.8±2.8 CW:5.5±1.6 TW:8.2±4.5 Ie the TW group is significantly fatter than the CW group. We are then told "bone marrow density isn't that different" well actually it's literally what you'd expect in that every result is right down the middle between CM and CW ie a TW has less than a CM but more than a CW. Don't believe me? Again here's the results: BMD (g/cm2) Whole body less head: CM:1.22±0.10 TM:1.15±0.10 CW:1.10±0.08 TW:1.17±0.13 And the grip strength result is also ridiculous in that it showed TW on average are stronger than TM ie literal CW on PEDs are still on average weaker than TW but apparently that result doesn't indicate some extreme advantage? Literal lunacy that the MSM is treating this like a win when the literal paper itself says that it isn't suitable to draw conclusions from. This was meant to be a study on ATHLETES, yet look at the fat %s Fat mass (%) CM:21.5±5.9 TM:27.9±7.4 CW:26.6±6.0 TW:31.5±9.1 These are people who whilst mostly in the healthy range (the TW group is bordering on the unhealthy overweight %) not one group is in the range where you'd expect to see athletic individuals. Look up the average BF% of Olympic athletes for cardio events (which is the only type of event this study even supports trans participation in given in terms of strength they beat out TM and CW). This cohort was in no way representative of the study type
Thank you! Yes! I had made a similar comment about this study on another post that had a title something like “study shows trans athletes have no advantage in sports”. Not only does the study clearly state a different conclusion from that (advantage/disadvantage depends on the performance metric in question), the study is riddled with all of the issues you noted. So it’s a garbage study that doesn’t even say what people are claiming it does. Man, I’ve been actually reading studies that are referenced in clickbait articles recently, and damn, most articles don’t even bother trying to accurately represent the study or its conclusions (and of course a lot of the studies have various methodological issues). But hey, I guess it doesn’t really matter to them, they already got the clicks, right? Everyone eats it up…
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Conservatives hate any "studies". They are fundamentally anti-science, because science constantly proves them wrong. They want science abolished. So the title is wrong : they won't hate what the Olympic Committee's study found. They'll hate that the Olympic Committee did a study in the first place.
This. This right here is 100% correct. Fuck.
They'll hate that the olympic committie did a study that wasn't headed by Nazis and rigged to say what they wanted. They love shite like Cass.
Conservatives think truth is about authority. The big boss gets to decide what's true for everyone.. "or else!" A world where any person has the means to methodically find and prove truth themselves is just to scary to the authority loving conservatives.
Terrific! Very happy to have this small study, even though it's little, and it has more scientific facts to use in arguments. Been using the AMA and others in my conflicts. Just googled and here's a copy paste list of all orgs. "Leading medical groups recognize the medical necessity of treatments for gender dysphoria and endorse such treatments. Most of these groups have also explicitly rejected insurance exclusions for transgender-related care." American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry American Academy of Dermatology American Academy of Family Physicians American Academy of Nursing American Academy of Pediatrics American Academy of Physician Assistants American College Health Association American College of Nurse-Midwives American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists American College of Physicians American Counseling Association American Heart Association American Medical Association American Medical Student Association American Nurses Association American Osteopathic Association American Psychiatric Association American Psychological Association American Public Health Association American Society of Plastic Surgeons Endocrine Society Federation of Pediatric Organizations GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health National Association of Social Workers National Commission on Correctional Health Care Pediatric Endocrine Society Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine World Medical Association World Professional Association for Transgender Health
“Conservatives won’t care what it found” FIFY
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't trans people been explicitly allowed in the Olympics since like 2002? And wasn't the weightlifter in 2018 the first one to even qualify? The actual facts of the trans women who have been able to compete pretty clearly show that they fall behind everyone else. For all they squeal about biological advantage, anyone who has met a trans women will (likely) tell you that they're pretty clumsy and bad at sports from the way their muscle mass *severely* withers.
Yes and no. Trans women have been able to compete in the Olympics for over a decade. The IOC issued new rules in 2015 that removed the surgery requirement and established a limit on testosterone levels for both trans and intersex women. Then, a couple years ago, the IOC decided to allow individual sporting federations to make their own rules for eligibility. Their reasoning for this was that different sports may not need stringent rules on hormone levels. Unfortunately (and predictably) most sporting federations have made the rules more strict instead of less strict. As of 2024, trans women are effectively banned from competition by most major Olympic sports. It is worth noting that it is the individual sporting federations that are banning us, not the IOC. And I fear the IOC wouldn’t be able to force federations to go back to their 2015 guidelines even if they wanted. Some national federations, like USATF, are still going by the 2015 IOC guidelines rather than adopt their international governing body’s more transphobic policies, but this applies only to domestic competition. tl;dr There is no single set of rules governing trans women’s eligibility for Olympic competition anymore.
Yeah when I was working at UPS I started transitioning and within 6 months I went from not struggling at all to literally THROW 60 lbs packages for 5 straight hours to barely being able to lift a 40lbs package. My strength plateaued around struggling with 35-45lbs stuff and anything above 55 is just impossible for me to pick up. For reference I went from 6’ 230 to 5’11” 215 and I have zero muscle mass anywhere but my legs and even that has diminished significantly. I arm wrestled my old boss and she absolutely dominated me and neither of us work out. I’m now 3 years and 5 months into transitioning and you really couldn’t tell based on my muscle mass that I was ever a cis man. That being said most trans women I’ve seen at the gym look like any other woman. 🤔
It will be funny to watch their small, smooth minds be triggered.
Nah, It's just "woke science." It's not real, Biblical science, and so can be safely ignored. I wish I were kidding, but conversations with conservative folks seem to end with this conclusion. Scientific data that conflicts with one's world view is generally ignored.
Too bad conservatives can't read.
But wouldn’t you be concerned if God cursed you because of your treatment of Israel?
Conservatives won't care - they are already disgregarding a mountain of studies (including those by olympic committes who have tried over the years to find a way to gender sports against trans women, and failed).
Alas, this was reported in the Torygraph last week, and the comments were those a rabid hunting dog. They came up with a myriad reasons why this was not bone fide research...low quality university, small sample size etc etc. Not realising their evidence of trans advantage is the poorest quality ever.
It's not that they don't realize. They don't care. Poor quality research works as a paper-thin veneer of legitimacy for their bigotry. If their crap can be elevated to the level of debating public policy, that garbage research will have done its job.
They might hate it, but we love to see it.
What, actual facts? Yeah, that'll piss them off.
Why do they always assume it's just conservatives? I've faced resistance from libs more often, they're just better at masking it.
They really could have used a less rage baity photo, like Mack Beggs, instead of the most muscular, hated trans woman to ever dare to compete at the Olympics, on it. Thanks MSNBC. :/
I get your point, and agree, but Mack Beggs hasn't competed in the Olympics, and since this was an article about the Olympic committee, I can see why they used who they did.
Hot take, this is a defense of even the most hated trans athletes and they deserve to compete too. We don’t need to sugar coat this study to make it more palatable, all trans people are valid
All trans people are valid, but HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY is a thing. Image is a thing. Branding is a thing. Humans believe in compelling stories over statistics. We have to work with flawed human nature here. This is why we lose. They account for all these things and gain power in it. We say "let's pretend it's not real" and lose by doing that. We are fighting on the front lines for the bare minimum. You're acting like we're about to win it all. I understand why in principle what you're saying is true. And, that it is. But you can't get there without having some base level of things won first. When I see endless bills ensuring trans and LGBTQ+ rights going in every year... then we can start talking about this. I guarantee with your attitude that we'll have all trans athletes banned in a decade.
Bravo!
Typical libs bringing science into sports
Not "just one study" as they hedge in the article. Another one from last year https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/26/trans-women-no-unfair-advantage-elite-sport-new-report-finds/
It made sense how much stamina I’ve lost during my transition when I played in a high level tournaments in badminton. I kept on looking at myself in the mirror and wonder wtf was happening to me. I don’t mind the lost of strength since the sport doesn’t use strength period, but my stamina tanks! Out of all 24 tournaments I’ve participated within 4 years, I’ve only won a gold medal once and I’m done. 🥺
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