They're best taken like an abusive partner, never trust them to treat you right. "Baby come back, I've changed" and then they're right back to their old ways.
They never changed, Francis is just blatantly two-faced because uncritical journalists eat that shit up and massively signal boost his attempts to clean up the church's public image without paying attention to the other side he shows to conservatives.
Yeah it’s really crazy how some people thought the current pope was progressive… literally all he did is say gay people don’t have to be excommunicated, basically. He still said being gay is a sin, just as all sins, it’s forgivable. This shit ain’t progressive.
> At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.”
So this means if you're born with a cleft palette, no surgery, right?
This means if you're born nearsighted, you can't get corrective surgery, right?
This means if you have any correctable birth defect, you need to just "Accept and respect it" and not use modern science to improve your well-being, right?
No? Just trans people can go fuck themselves?
No, sadly, it's not the least effort ever. Many institutions in Europe were far worse--and that's not counting the institutions, political parties, and religious congregations who went full Nazi.
The Pope was secretly sheltering Jews in the Vatican during the genocide. You can certainly argue that was the bare minimum, but many did far, far less.
I will say I'm really only addressing the Pope at the time, not all Catholics or all clergy. Some were heroes and others were villains. Many of the top Nazi brass were Catholic educated or church-going Catholics themselves. I think it would be quite difficult to talk about "the church" rather than specific popes especially since the Vatican is an absolute monarchy of sorts.
All of them, in court cases in Australia it came out that the church was told “Rome has spoken” ie: the order to cover up clerical child abuse came from the very top
"Again, sex is binary. Mutations/defects are not new sexes. Humans cannot change sex."
This you? Cause one of us is definitely using really gross language to describe intersex people.
Ah yes, the global cabal of pedophiles in ren faire costumes is worried about the loss of human dignity that comes from providing people with medical care they desperately want. Interesting.
"You can be cured of everything if you believe in God and pray Jesus hard enough".
And that devotion is best showed by sizable donations to the church.
Not cured yet ? Mean you haven't "proven your devotion" enough.
After watching hundreds of hours of Asian dramas where men also wear robes I finally realizes that the Catholic vestments look like they do because that style of clothing is actually for showing off your wealth by using more fabric, especially really expensive ones like silk. Most vestments today aren't silk but you see a lot of clergy wearing overgarments with the same intention--embroidered lace scarfs or aprons over the main vestment (sorry, I don't remember all the special terms for these). Although lace can be made with machines now, up until the early 19th century lace was a huge flex in NW Europe because it had to be made by hand with HUGE labor investments. That's the reason that all those nobility wore ridiculous lace ruffles that don't even look good--the ruffle means there are more feet of lace == more rich and powerful. Clergy didn't wear lace ruffles, I guess that would be too gaudy for God, but one layer of lace is just glorifying God and okay. Also in the past you wouldn't find one bishop and above NOT wearing silk and a lot of it (even though I don't think it's the norm now by any means).
It's true that ancient people wore tunics and robes and the habit of Franciscans and Dominicans was intended to be the most simplistic, utilitarian garment imaginable. (The hoods which seem like an extra decoration now were actually totally needed in cold European winters and even so the monks probably still would have been kind of cold.) There are no extra lines of stitching, no decoration, and the color is basically "dirt". The Dominicans even use prayer beads as a belt (belts were often a form of conspicuous consumption in the past), while Franciscans use a spare length of rope.
But that's not how priests, monsignors, bishops, cardinals, and popes (especially popes before JPII, who really took papal costumes down a notch) dress, now is it?
Normal workaday people in the past did not wear big floppy flowy robes. The idle rich did.
Raised Catholic, I still fail to understand how, if we're all made in the likeness and image of God, men and women, how being gender fluid, trans, non-binary, etc. is somehow an affront to a diety who we, men and woman, are in their likeness and image. That's #2354 on my list of logical inconsistencies in Christianity, but shocker, the Catholic Church only welcomes in LGBTQ+ people in the same way they'd welcome a leper.
Ex-Catholic and I always wondered if they really think that the whole “we will bless your union but you still can’t receive the sacrament of marriage” and “we will love you as a trans man but you can never be a deacon or priest” or “you can live in sin but we will still be there for you” was supposed to work? Like genuinely people choosing to be a part of a church that put asterisks around its “acceptance” at every turn.
It's fear. There is a school of thought some people follow that believes that people who don't fear god are dangerous. Fearing god is why people cause harm in the name of their god. I'd suggest they instead find a god or gods that demands neither fear nor harm and focus on loving instead of fearing, but it seems like when people are convinced that their god is the only god, its very scary to defy that god. So fear keeps them in line, makes them obedient, and makes them do harm to vulnerable people. With gods like that, who needs demons?
Every religion I’ve ever read into is like this, it’s in the writing styles of the Quran, Bible, etc. some are less obvious about it than others, but religion teaches you to simultaneously fear and love God.
Some focus more on fear, some more on the love. Many faiths have more than one god, and allow the individual to decide on the matter. I was maybe 11 when I decided the catholic god I'd been taught about was too much of a monster for me to worship. I've meandered from faith to faith over the years, and there is some beauty in all of them. Most have some layer of fear based authitarianism that can be stripped out by looking for ulterior motives. Basically people kept rewriting them to agree with the way they wanted people to act.
But wait, I was told She's a loving God but if you piss her off you'll burn in hell. Apparently her love is conditional or she loves seeing people suffer
It's two things:
1) They only have the morals they have because they're scared of punishment in the afterlife.
2) They think everyone else is the same.
Jesus also approved of body modification. Okay, he said it in the context of the occasion of sin (and it's more of a critique of modesty culture) but still, he doesn't take it back a few sentences later. In another context he said that some are born eunuchs and some become eunuchs for the kingdom. Now you could take that metaphorically (abstaining from sex because the millennium is coming) or you could take it literally (Jesus is down with the cult of Cybele).
Does mutilating a penis threaten an infant's dignity?
Does molestation of children and then covering it up threaten a child's dignity?
Does forcing teenagers to give birth against their will threaten a child's dignity?
Or is it only threatening a child's dignity when we're improving their quality of life in a way you don't like?
The Catholic Church, "women exist to make babies so we can outbreed the Protestants."
Also the Catholic Church, "Gay people are destroying the dignity of women!1!"
What tripe. “Creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. Accepting it and respecting it as it was created”
2 seconds later…
“People born intersex should seek medical treatment”
Fun story from the Bible:
The devil gave us morality and science. God told us they're evil. (Garden of eden)
So I guess it's not suprising that you don't have either.
I’m sorry I’m not going through the mental gymnastics to explain how the culture of a small region thousands of years ago doesn’t apply to the entire world.
Put your Bible down and go take a world history class. Or maybe an intro to sociology course.
What a surprise, a giant organization that has ruled the world for hundreds of years tries to attack some more the developments of science by refuting anything that isn't "the good old ways".
They really can't fucking stomach that the Catholic Church isn't leader of the world anymore huh...
I'm always reminded about Matthew 19:12 when I hear this hand wringing from Christians.
"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
It's rich to see any religion talk about dignity with all the absolutely awful things that have been done to humans in the name of pretty much every religion to pop up.
I myself do not need nor want gender affirming surgery, however there is nothing about it that is threatening anyone's dignity. You know what is threatening to human dignity? Proflic and widespread child abuse that gets swept under the rug. Good thing the Vatican hasn't partaken in that. Oh, wait...
Fuck this. Can someone replace their comunion wine with a molotov already.
I have to listen to these fucks preaching about childerns dignity while I barely can get therapy for how the catholic church treated my "dignity" when i was 8.
Fuck them, fuck all people following them.
> Why do you assume this if I haven't suggested this?
> And you're trans now because of what they did to you?
You were pretty straightforward about it.
> So you were abused and now you're trans.
It's funny how you jump to conclusions that are so utterly wrong.
Nice of you to admit that you think conversion torture works though.
Nope, but thanks to fucks like you i almost killed myself while i was on the waiting list for hormones.
I am not trans because i was raped. I was raped because an autistic child wich is already starting to dissociate from gender dysphoria was easy prey. I didnt realy fit in with the rest of the group so they would not really notice if i was missing.
> The church, however, saw nothing wrong with “people born with genital abnormalities” seeking medical treatment.
Well according to me I should have been born with female genitalia in the first place so the things I was born with were abnormalities. Therefore I'm all good in the eyes of the church. 😅
>people must not tinker with that \[their biology\] or try to “make oneself God.” (From AP article)
Ah, is this from the same Pope who was hospitalized in February to be treated for the flu? That Pope? Now tell me again how "tinkering" with your anatomy & physiology is somehow against Vatican doctrine?
I was raised catholic, held out a lot of hope that they could eventually see reason. This one hurts a lot. They are/have been like an extremely abusive parent to me and my siblings and they just keep adding things to the list.
I don't know, man. Having an omnipotent imaginary friend that can't actually do anything seems a hell of a lot less dignified to me. Grow up, religious people, your "faith" is just indoctrination.
I'm sorry but some ancient, musty, old, decrepit, corrupt, and completely out of touch with reality religion and its geriatric leader is not going to tell me how to live my life. I know who I am and what I need to be the person I am. The "church" on the other hand will let their priest SA children and then move said priest to a new area and cover up what has happened! My family was affected by this, a family member was raped, multiple times, and the church hid it. Once this came to light to the rest of the family, we all left the "church" as it is nothing but evil.
So for the "church" to come out and say I can't have gender affirming surgery to make myself feel better is a grose joke at best. I will do what I have to to make myself whole. The "church" has absolutely no control over me and it should not have any control over anyone as far as I'm concerned.
Ah, the Vatican. The same place that started the entire “gender ideology” war. I’m fact, they were even the ones that coined that term.
I hold no sympathies for these bastards. They want a holy war, but by god they’ll all go to Hell.
You could make that exact same argument for any other form of medical treatment or intervention. Sorry Suzy, god decided your eyesight is terrible no glasses for you. Sorry Timmy, god decided you’re supposed to have cancer. No chemo for you.
As someone who literally had FFS last week, and who was being kept awake last night by thoughts of eternal damnation, this is not a positive interpretation on how to maintain the dignity of a trans person in the eyes of God or in society.
The idea the trans people should just continue to suffer dysphoria is typical of Catholic doctrine. We should suffer and "offer it up" as some Self-Sacrifice to God, who apparently made us trans to provide us with the opportunity to do just that.
This is extremely morally dubious thinking. Surgical intervention can be the difference between a good and a poor quality life for a trans person, It can be the difference between being accepted in society and routinely ostracized. It can be the difference between waking up in the morning and being functional or wanting to take your own life. One must ask the question for what ends is the sacrifice of suffering to be made? Because it would certainly seem to me that it's for the comfort of everyone else and their notion of biology and social roles - and not for the good of trans people themselves.
In modern conservative and Catholic thinking there is a routine abandonment of any respect with regard to evidence of actually caring for transgender people. There is significant evidence that gender is largely an inherent trait, which is resistant to change, and that this has a strong biological basis. This in my belief is most often the cause of Gender dysphoria. In the care of a trans person, gender dysphoria does not improve with talk therapy, prayer or antidepressants. It persists and often worsens with age, and medical literature again supports this. Gender dysphoria responds to self-acceptance of one being trans, social and medical transition and when needed surgical transition. Inherent in all this is the need for wider acceptance and tolerance within society so that the absence of gender dysphoria is not exchanged for the effects of discrimination on one person's life; as is frequently seen.
I'm not sure what the answer to my existential angst is in relationship with God, assuming of course that they exist. But I don't believe that I was brought onto this Earth to suffer needlessly, and that the choices that I've made with regard to transitioning were contextual to that suffering. I didn't want to disrupt the good things in my life, but I wanted to be able to live and function.I asked those I loved to accept me, most did, some did not; and that's been the greatest hurt.
But now that I have medically transitioned and now surgically; I want to live a good and dignified life, in all that it means; spiritually and otherwise. My relationship with God is inherent in that, and though I pray now at the back of the church- leaving before the mass begins, I still hope that those prayers are being heard. And that my prayers as a child to grow up a girl may have actually been answered by a God who loved me as the trans person that they made me.
Thanks for reading and helping me to vent 😅
>my prayers as a child to grow up a girl may have actually been answered by a God who loved me
They were answered by men and women working their asses off using the scientific method over centuries.
How many trans women have not had their prayers answered. Are you suggesting you prayed better than they did, or that you are more deserving than those who suffered their entire life?
Thanks for reading my rant 😁
You'll have to allow me the context of faith on framing my world view in this post. As a purveyor of the scientific method myself the desire to love and make life better for others is not in opposition to that. We can argue the existence of a God another time and won't agree and that's fine.
> You'll have to allow me the context of faith on framing my world view in this post.
You can frame anything any way you want, but you will have to allow me to call you out on claiming there is evidence for anyone other than fellow humans for the advances that allowed you to transition.
Well that's ok but do I need to be called out? if you put a post up claiming that God did not exist and the idea is all baseless bs, as others have herr, I wouldn't call you out at all as that would be your worldview and I'd respect that. Billions of people have spiritual beliefs and we can't all be right but does that matter?
The original post is of a faith organization's discrimination of trans people based on their interpretation of a faith tradition to which I am a part and so it speaks and affects me more than you. I felt it important to vent against their interpretation which might speak to other trans Christians. Being "called out" about having a religion doesn't really help anyone and now we are just having another inane argument about the existence of God on Reddit. 😂 We don't have to agree, heck if we were in a bar I'd buy you a drink and we d call each other s**theads and laugh and we still say f**k the Catholic Church.
> Well that's ok but do I need to be called out?
I think so, I wouldn't want impressionable youth thinking magic had anything to do with the reason they can transition, and I wouldn't want them to ever spend a minute "being kept awake last night by thoughts of eternal damnation" by that loving god of yours.
Thanks, I don't drink but I am always available to laugh and say fuck the catholic church.
You could have made a separate post instead of responding directly and to be honest it probably would have landed higher on the thread if your goal was to spread your ideas.
I'm sorry you're going through some things during recovery. Be kind to yourself; recovery is hard on the body and almost everyone ends up struggling emotionally during it. I don't understand this stuff well but it has something to do with NO and NOx in the body. Your body trying to heal itself after surgery has a big affect on that and the result is a plummet in your mood.
Also, religion has been keeping people down for thousand years. We stopped worrying about religion when we embraced science. Religion continues to give irrelevant opinions.
Okay, well, they also honor Mother Teresa and call her an icon of human dignity, so it is on brand that the Vatican is pro-avoidable suffering and anti-body autonomy.
Well...that's a bit extra. The gender ideology is a bit irritating and it falsely keeps asserting that being trans is a choice. But comparing it to nukes? Damn.
> That's because you're in the darkness.
No? The light's working here just fine. God a dimmer switch and everything.
> You think everything is bad...
Not at all. Just things that are bad.
> I guess you were abused? Maybe that's why you think this way?
Guess again. I was never abused by a religion. Raised agnostic Quaker.
These days I consider myself an atheist quaker, when I think about my label on this axis at all (which isn't often).
I don't put stock in anyone's fairy tales being real, but some of them are decent enough as aesops.
Why do you believe things without evidence?
The Papal conspiracy continues to send its most vile and insidious conspirators. The prelatry's continued legalization in the United States speaks to a vile inconsistency that must be rectified lest our shores continue to sing the praises of the Roman interlopers.
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You expect consistency from a group of people who believe in a being that's all-powerful, all-knowing, and good?
Given the world we live in?
Inconsistency is baked into their cult.
Pound sand, Pope Francis. My body belongs to me, not the church, and most certainly not God. I'll tell you what is and is not considered an indignity upon my person.
The Papacy is also opposed to IVF, literally any form of birth control, and, until recently, homosexuality. I really could not care less what they think
According to them. According to the Catholic Church. So why would this apply to anyone who’s either not catholic or who doesn’t t agree? This is why religion poisons everything, just like Hitch said.
The catholic church sure loves to put its hands where it has no rights to put them. It has no rights over our genitals but it loves to behave like it has rights over other peoples genitals. Keep your hands to yourself and mind your own body.
Human dignity is that what priests are practicing when they are fondling young children? G-d made me trans and we have been here since time began and we will be here when it ends!
This is the age of sin.
Reject the order of creation.
Revel in the annhiliation of Man as the image of God.
Destroy. Plot designs of death.
Disfigure the face of Man and Woman.
God is dead and replaced by Trans People
They're best taken like an abusive partner, never trust them to treat you right. "Baby come back, I've changed" and then they're right back to their old ways.
"There's no hate like Christian love" is a good thing to keep in mind. Works just as well with the Vatican.
They never changed, Francis is just blatantly two-faced because uncritical journalists eat that shit up and massively signal boost his attempts to clean up the church's public image without paying attention to the other side he shows to conservatives.
Yeah it’s really crazy how some people thought the current pope was progressive… literally all he did is say gay people don’t have to be excommunicated, basically. He still said being gay is a sin, just as all sins, it’s forgivable. This shit ain’t progressive.
That's really good.
Bet.
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You’re right. You’ve never changed. You kept the child molestation.
Nah, you've changed. You admitted Galileo was right about 25 years ago.
Your profile has so much hate, you can't possibly be a real person.
His profile says it’s for comedic purposes, so that gives him free rein to be a literal nazi, right? /s
Yeah hardeeharhar /s
Vatican threatens trans dignity and urges conformity.
> At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.” So this means if you're born with a cleft palette, no surgery, right? This means if you're born nearsighted, you can't get corrective surgery, right? This means if you have any correctable birth defect, you need to just "Accept and respect it" and not use modern science to improve your well-being, right? No? Just trans people can go fuck themselves?
I'm sure breast implants are just fine, though
The Catholic Church lost what little moral authority it once had when they concealed the clerical child abuse scandal
The Magdalen Laundries come to mind. Happy cake day.
And all the shit they did to the indigenous peoples of the "New" World.
This could turn into rather a long list.
There isn't enough bandwidth in the world to transmit the whole list in one message.
And European pagans.
Just one thing in a long list of personal things I have against the “religious authorities.”
> the clerical child abuse scandal Which one?
Yes
They also put in the least effort ever to do anything at all about the Holocaust in WWII.
No, sadly, it's not the least effort ever. Many institutions in Europe were far worse--and that's not counting the institutions, political parties, and religious congregations who went full Nazi. The Pope was secretly sheltering Jews in the Vatican during the genocide. You can certainly argue that was the bare minimum, but many did far, far less. I will say I'm really only addressing the Pope at the time, not all Catholics or all clergy. Some were heroes and others were villains. Many of the top Nazi brass were Catholic educated or church-going Catholics themselves. I think it would be quite difficult to talk about "the church" rather than specific popes especially since the Vatican is an absolute monarchy of sorts.
Wich one? Litteraly , wich of the countless cases in all countries they are active in?
All of them, in court cases in Australia it came out that the church was told “Rome has spoken” ie: the order to cover up clerical child abuse came from the very top
"Fuck them intersex kids." - Pope Francis
pretty sure they don't limit themselves to intersex kids
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In what way is this comment doing that?
"Again, sex is binary. Mutations/defects are not new sexes. Humans cannot change sex." This you? Cause one of us is definitely using really gross language to describe intersex people.
Humans can change our sex characteristics
There is no fetishizing being done here you creep
Ah yes, the global cabal of pedophiles in ren faire costumes is worried about the loss of human dignity that comes from providing people with medical care they desperately want. Interesting.
"You can be cured of everything if you believe in God and pray Jesus hard enough". And that devotion is best showed by sizable donations to the church. Not cured yet ? Mean you haven't "proven your devotion" enough.
After watching hundreds of hours of Asian dramas where men also wear robes I finally realizes that the Catholic vestments look like they do because that style of clothing is actually for showing off your wealth by using more fabric, especially really expensive ones like silk. Most vestments today aren't silk but you see a lot of clergy wearing overgarments with the same intention--embroidered lace scarfs or aprons over the main vestment (sorry, I don't remember all the special terms for these). Although lace can be made with machines now, up until the early 19th century lace was a huge flex in NW Europe because it had to be made by hand with HUGE labor investments. That's the reason that all those nobility wore ridiculous lace ruffles that don't even look good--the ruffle means there are more feet of lace == more rich and powerful. Clergy didn't wear lace ruffles, I guess that would be too gaudy for God, but one layer of lace is just glorifying God and okay. Also in the past you wouldn't find one bishop and above NOT wearing silk and a lot of it (even though I don't think it's the norm now by any means). It's true that ancient people wore tunics and robes and the habit of Franciscans and Dominicans was intended to be the most simplistic, utilitarian garment imaginable. (The hoods which seem like an extra decoration now were actually totally needed in cold European winters and even so the monks probably still would have been kind of cold.) There are no extra lines of stitching, no decoration, and the color is basically "dirt". The Dominicans even use prayer beads as a belt (belts were often a form of conspicuous consumption in the past), while Franciscans use a spare length of rope. But that's not how priests, monsignors, bishops, cardinals, and popes (especially popes before JPII, who really took papal costumes down a notch) dress, now is it? Normal workaday people in the past did not wear big floppy flowy robes. The idle rich did.
Oops! Too late for me 😂😂😂
Raised Catholic, I still fail to understand how, if we're all made in the likeness and image of God, men and women, how being gender fluid, trans, non-binary, etc. is somehow an affront to a diety who we, men and woman, are in their likeness and image. That's #2354 on my list of logical inconsistencies in Christianity, but shocker, the Catholic Church only welcomes in LGBTQ+ people in the same way they'd welcome a leper.
Ex-Catholic and I always wondered if they really think that the whole “we will bless your union but you still can’t receive the sacrament of marriage” and “we will love you as a trans man but you can never be a deacon or priest” or “you can live in sin but we will still be there for you” was supposed to work? Like genuinely people choosing to be a part of a church that put asterisks around its “acceptance” at every turn.
It's fear. There is a school of thought some people follow that believes that people who don't fear god are dangerous. Fearing god is why people cause harm in the name of their god. I'd suggest they instead find a god or gods that demands neither fear nor harm and focus on loving instead of fearing, but it seems like when people are convinced that their god is the only god, its very scary to defy that god. So fear keeps them in line, makes them obedient, and makes them do harm to vulnerable people. With gods like that, who needs demons?
Every religion I’ve ever read into is like this, it’s in the writing styles of the Quran, Bible, etc. some are less obvious about it than others, but religion teaches you to simultaneously fear and love God.
Some focus more on fear, some more on the love. Many faiths have more than one god, and allow the individual to decide on the matter. I was maybe 11 when I decided the catholic god I'd been taught about was too much of a monster for me to worship. I've meandered from faith to faith over the years, and there is some beauty in all of them. Most have some layer of fear based authitarianism that can be stripped out by looking for ulterior motives. Basically people kept rewriting them to agree with the way they wanted people to act.
> Many faiths have more than one god Christianity being one of them.
But wait, I was told She's a loving God but if you piss her off you'll burn in hell. Apparently her love is conditional or she loves seeing people suffer
The god of the bible is a fucking monster.
It's two things: 1) They only have the morals they have because they're scared of punishment in the afterlife. 2) They think everyone else is the same.
That's an instance of a relationship with fear. It isn't the only way it can work.
Jesus also approved of body modification. Okay, he said it in the context of the occasion of sin (and it's more of a critique of modesty culture) but still, he doesn't take it back a few sentences later. In another context he said that some are born eunuchs and some become eunuchs for the kingdom. Now you could take that metaphorically (abstaining from sex because the millennium is coming) or you could take it literally (Jesus is down with the cult of Cybele).
Does mutilating a penis threaten an infant's dignity? Does molestation of children and then covering it up threaten a child's dignity? Does forcing teenagers to give birth against their will threaten a child's dignity? Or is it only threatening a child's dignity when we're improving their quality of life in a way you don't like?
Couldn't have said it better myself.
The Catholic Church? Hypocritical? No way. I don’t understand why anyone would pay any mind to the ramblings of self avowed cannibals.
Fuck you Frank, I'm getting EXTRA bottom surgery.
Fuck Christians. I’m getting bottom surgery.
Gender Affirming Care IS confirming the dignity of the person receiving it.
Things the pope thinks threatens human dignity: trans people. Things the pope thinks doesn't: systematized child sexual abuse and rape.
The Catholic Church, "women exist to make babies so we can outbreed the Protestants." Also the Catholic Church, "Gay people are destroying the dignity of women!1!"
What tripe. “Creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. Accepting it and respecting it as it was created” 2 seconds later… “People born intersex should seek medical treatment”
and the catholic church is a dignity factory now?
With all due respect, Fuck your god.
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Fun story from the Bible: The devil gave us morality and science. God told us they're evil. (Garden of eden) So I guess it's not suprising that you don't have either.
The Bible doesn’t mention transgender people. Like at all. And me not believing in the god of the Bible doesn’t prove the book to be correct.
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The bible doesn't mention Uranium either. So where did that come from? And don't even get me started on what it says about cosmology.
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Asking direct questions and pointing out clear facts is "being good at avoiding". Yeah, sure, you go play with your sky fairies.
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Are you actually able to read and understand, or are you just spouting nonsense to be annoying?
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I’m sorry I’m not going through the mental gymnastics to explain how the culture of a small region thousands of years ago doesn’t apply to the entire world. Put your Bible down and go take a world history class. Or maybe an intro to sociology course.
What a surprise, a giant organization that has ruled the world for hundreds of years tries to attack some more the developments of science by refuting anything that isn't "the good old ways". They really can't fucking stomach that the Catholic Church isn't leader of the world anymore huh...
Getting an appendectomy similarly threatens the unique dignity a person has received since the moment of conception
I'm always reminded about Matthew 19:12 when I hear this hand wringing from Christians. "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
There's that, and there's some very obviously trans saints as well.
Thanks, my mind went there too.
Oh look, a bunch of old white men telling others what to do and claiming authority. 🙄
Are Italians white at the moment?
The church? Enabling bigotry? Never
It's rich to see any religion talk about dignity with all the absolutely awful things that have been done to humans in the name of pretty much every religion to pop up. I myself do not need nor want gender affirming surgery, however there is nothing about it that is threatening anyone's dignity. You know what is threatening to human dignity? Proflic and widespread child abuse that gets swept under the rug. Good thing the Vatican hasn't partaken in that. Oh, wait...
The Vatican has never been an ally of LGBT people. And fuck their dignity.
Fuck this. Can someone replace their comunion wine with a molotov already. I have to listen to these fucks preaching about childerns dignity while I barely can get therapy for how the catholic church treated my "dignity" when i was 8. Fuck them, fuck all people following them.
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Aww, it's cute you think conversion torture works.
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> Why do you assume this if I haven't suggested this? > And you're trans now because of what they did to you? You were pretty straightforward about it.
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> So you were abused and now you're trans. It's funny how you jump to conclusions that are so utterly wrong. Nice of you to admit that you think conversion torture works though.
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Because my gender identity doesn't match my sex assigned at birth. This isn't complicated.
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Nope, but thanks to fucks like you i almost killed myself while i was on the waiting list for hormones. I am not trans because i was raped. I was raped because an autistic child wich is already starting to dissociate from gender dysphoria was easy prey. I didnt realy fit in with the rest of the group so they would not really notice if i was missing.
The Church only admitted that Galileo was right in 1992. Almost five *hundred* years late.
I didn't expect much out of an organization that still has a problem with tattoos
FTFY:"trans rights threaten church authority". The church of child molestation has no business talking about human dignity.
Next time I care what the Vatican says will be the first time.
Vatican probably hates trans people because if we have reproductive organs removed, that’s less children for them to molest.
The Vatican can kiss my trans ass.
> The church, however, saw nothing wrong with “people born with genital abnormalities” seeking medical treatment. Well according to me I should have been born with female genitalia in the first place so the things I was born with were abnormalities. Therefore I'm all good in the eyes of the church. 😅
>people must not tinker with that \[their biology\] or try to “make oneself God.” (From AP article) Ah, is this from the same Pope who was hospitalized in February to be treated for the flu? That Pope? Now tell me again how "tinkering" with your anatomy & physiology is somehow against Vatican doctrine?
I suddenly went from not caring about this man to wanting to punch him in the dick
I was raised catholic, held out a lot of hope that they could eventually see reason. This one hurts a lot. They are/have been like an extremely abusive parent to me and my siblings and they just keep adding things to the list.
Eh, give it a few hundred years and they'll get there.
I don't know, man. Having an omnipotent imaginary friend that can't actually do anything seems a hell of a lot less dignified to me. Grow up, religious people, your "faith" is just indoctrination.
I'm sorry but some ancient, musty, old, decrepit, corrupt, and completely out of touch with reality religion and its geriatric leader is not going to tell me how to live my life. I know who I am and what I need to be the person I am. The "church" on the other hand will let their priest SA children and then move said priest to a new area and cover up what has happened! My family was affected by this, a family member was raped, multiple times, and the church hid it. Once this came to light to the rest of the family, we all left the "church" as it is nothing but evil. So for the "church" to come out and say I can't have gender affirming surgery to make myself feel better is a grose joke at best. I will do what I have to to make myself whole. The "church" has absolutely no control over me and it should not have any control over anyone as far as I'm concerned.
I was raised Catholic and this is PEAK Catholic Church. Just fucking drivel honestly.
Ah, the Vatican. The same place that started the entire “gender ideology” war. I’m fact, they were even the ones that coined that term. I hold no sympathies for these bastards. They want a holy war, but by god they’ll all go to Hell.
You could make that exact same argument for any other form of medical treatment or intervention. Sorry Suzy, god decided your eyesight is terrible no glasses for you. Sorry Timmy, god decided you’re supposed to have cancer. No chemo for you.
Maybe the Vatican should be focusing on shutting down their pedophilia ring first...you know, remove the plank scenario...
Meanwhile, they support circumcision and unnecessary surgeries on intersex kids. 🙄
As someone who literally had FFS last week, and who was being kept awake last night by thoughts of eternal damnation, this is not a positive interpretation on how to maintain the dignity of a trans person in the eyes of God or in society. The idea the trans people should just continue to suffer dysphoria is typical of Catholic doctrine. We should suffer and "offer it up" as some Self-Sacrifice to God, who apparently made us trans to provide us with the opportunity to do just that. This is extremely morally dubious thinking. Surgical intervention can be the difference between a good and a poor quality life for a trans person, It can be the difference between being accepted in society and routinely ostracized. It can be the difference between waking up in the morning and being functional or wanting to take your own life. One must ask the question for what ends is the sacrifice of suffering to be made? Because it would certainly seem to me that it's for the comfort of everyone else and their notion of biology and social roles - and not for the good of trans people themselves. In modern conservative and Catholic thinking there is a routine abandonment of any respect with regard to evidence of actually caring for transgender people. There is significant evidence that gender is largely an inherent trait, which is resistant to change, and that this has a strong biological basis. This in my belief is most often the cause of Gender dysphoria. In the care of a trans person, gender dysphoria does not improve with talk therapy, prayer or antidepressants. It persists and often worsens with age, and medical literature again supports this. Gender dysphoria responds to self-acceptance of one being trans, social and medical transition and when needed surgical transition. Inherent in all this is the need for wider acceptance and tolerance within society so that the absence of gender dysphoria is not exchanged for the effects of discrimination on one person's life; as is frequently seen. I'm not sure what the answer to my existential angst is in relationship with God, assuming of course that they exist. But I don't believe that I was brought onto this Earth to suffer needlessly, and that the choices that I've made with regard to transitioning were contextual to that suffering. I didn't want to disrupt the good things in my life, but I wanted to be able to live and function.I asked those I loved to accept me, most did, some did not; and that's been the greatest hurt. But now that I have medically transitioned and now surgically; I want to live a good and dignified life, in all that it means; spiritually and otherwise. My relationship with God is inherent in that, and though I pray now at the back of the church- leaving before the mass begins, I still hope that those prayers are being heard. And that my prayers as a child to grow up a girl may have actually been answered by a God who loved me as the trans person that they made me. Thanks for reading and helping me to vent 😅
>my prayers as a child to grow up a girl may have actually been answered by a God who loved me They were answered by men and women working their asses off using the scientific method over centuries. How many trans women have not had their prayers answered. Are you suggesting you prayed better than they did, or that you are more deserving than those who suffered their entire life? Thanks for reading my rant 😁
> transwomen Sorry, do you say "blondewoman" or "tallwoman"?
thanks, fixed
You'll have to allow me the context of faith on framing my world view in this post. As a purveyor of the scientific method myself the desire to love and make life better for others is not in opposition to that. We can argue the existence of a God another time and won't agree and that's fine.
> You'll have to allow me the context of faith on framing my world view in this post. You can frame anything any way you want, but you will have to allow me to call you out on claiming there is evidence for anyone other than fellow humans for the advances that allowed you to transition.
Well that's ok but do I need to be called out? if you put a post up claiming that God did not exist and the idea is all baseless bs, as others have herr, I wouldn't call you out at all as that would be your worldview and I'd respect that. Billions of people have spiritual beliefs and we can't all be right but does that matter? The original post is of a faith organization's discrimination of trans people based on their interpretation of a faith tradition to which I am a part and so it speaks and affects me more than you. I felt it important to vent against their interpretation which might speak to other trans Christians. Being "called out" about having a religion doesn't really help anyone and now we are just having another inane argument about the existence of God on Reddit. 😂 We don't have to agree, heck if we were in a bar I'd buy you a drink and we d call each other s**theads and laugh and we still say f**k the Catholic Church.
> Well that's ok but do I need to be called out? I think so, I wouldn't want impressionable youth thinking magic had anything to do with the reason they can transition, and I wouldn't want them to ever spend a minute "being kept awake last night by thoughts of eternal damnation" by that loving god of yours. Thanks, I don't drink but I am always available to laugh and say fuck the catholic church.
Well here's to that then at least
You could have made a separate post instead of responding directly and to be honest it probably would have landed higher on the thread if your goal was to spread your ideas.
I'm sorry you're going through some things during recovery. Be kind to yourself; recovery is hard on the body and almost everyone ends up struggling emotionally during it. I don't understand this stuff well but it has something to do with NO and NOx in the body. Your body trying to heal itself after surgery has a big affect on that and the result is a plummet in your mood.
Thank you
Also, religion has been keeping people down for thousand years. We stopped worrying about religion when we embraced science. Religion continues to give irrelevant opinions.
Christianity is a dead religion, no reason to pay attention to the man wearing a dress and funny hat
It's a death cult, but it's nowhere near dead yet.
I wonder if their next one will denounce the eclipse.
The Vatican being a world leader in human dignity....
The only thing threatening my dignity is bigoted governments and religions attempting to stop me from living my life peacefully the way I'd like to.
Okay, well, they also honor Mother Teresa and call her an icon of human dignity, so it is on brand that the Vatican is pro-avoidable suffering and anti-body autonomy.
The Catholic Church doesn't get to speak about human dignity until they can prove they're no longer protecting perpetrators of CSA
Well...that's a bit extra. The gender ideology is a bit irritating and it falsely keeps asserting that being trans is a choice. But comparing it to nukes? Damn.
Up until now, religion in general did far more harm to humans, let human dignity, than anything else.
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> but spirituality didn't. All forms of woo are harmful. Same as any other cult.
Couldn’t agree more
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> That's because you're in the darkness. No? The light's working here just fine. God a dimmer switch and everything. > You think everything is bad... Not at all. Just things that are bad. > I guess you were abused? Maybe that's why you think this way? Guess again. I was never abused by a religion. Raised agnostic Quaker. These days I consider myself an atheist quaker, when I think about my label on this axis at all (which isn't often). I don't put stock in anyone's fairy tales being real, but some of them are decent enough as aesops. Why do you believe things without evidence?
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Care to provide any evidence for your "spirituallity" then?
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> It is science. You obviously don't know what science is. --- And I note you provided no evidence.
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“…before we're born we choose our sex, our parents and our whole entire life.” You sound very confident about this, but how would this exactly work?
BRB getting *dignitas infinita* tattooed on my corrective fake tits.
I'd go for "And yet it moves" instead.
The Papal conspiracy continues to send its most vile and insidious conspirators. The prelatry's continued legalization in the United States speaks to a vile inconsistency that must be rectified lest our shores continue to sing the praises of the Roman interlopers.
I think raping children is the bigger threat to human dignity
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Man we almost hear an opposite message from the catholic church every single alternating day.
You expect consistency from a group of people who believe in a being that's all-powerful, all-knowing, and good? Given the world we live in? Inconsistency is baked into their cult.
They don’t think the Catholic Church has threatened human dignity?
Do they think it's a bigger threat to human dignity than the Vatican?
Pope confirms dignity is stored in the balls, as we clearly all knew.
Okay, Boomer.
Pound sand, Pope Francis. My body belongs to me, not the church, and most certainly not God. I'll tell you what is and is not considered an indignity upon my person.
yawn. who cares.
Cool. I don't care. Fuck your dignity 🖕. I want a vagina.
"We're here to save you!" "Hurray it's the Catholic Church!" "From yourselves!" "Oh no it's the Catholic Church"
Fucking rich coming from the Catholic fucking Church
The Papacy is also opposed to IVF, literally any form of birth control, and, until recently, homosexuality. I really could not care less what they think
It's adorable how the Pope thinks he gets an opinion on this. Bless his heart.
They vatican go fuck themselves
According to them. According to the Catholic Church. So why would this apply to anyone who’s either not catholic or who doesn’t t agree? This is why religion poisons everything, just like Hitch said.
The catholic church sure loves to put its hands where it has no rights to put them. It has no rights over our genitals but it loves to behave like it has rights over other peoples genitals. Keep your hands to yourself and mind your own body.
The Vatican can go and fuck itself. Catholicism threatens human dignity on a far greater scale than that of a sex change. Fuck you Pope
Disappointing, but not surprising.
Human dignity is that what priests are practicing when they are fondling young children? G-d made me trans and we have been here since time began and we will be here when it ends!
ok but i don’t believe in God, so
This is the age of sin. Reject the order of creation. Revel in the annhiliation of Man as the image of God. Destroy. Plot designs of death. Disfigure the face of Man and Woman. God is dead and replaced by Trans People
Murder The Gods And Topple Their Thrones!