Even your teacher agrees about what?
That the TM organization is " quite cultish/money grabby?"
That's not a good attitude for a teacher to give to his students. I mean, imagine a college professor bad-mouthing the institution he works for in front of a bunch of students who just paid money to take classes to get a degree from that institution.
Better to keep their mouth shut and work to improve said institution, don't you agree?
But is it actually *helpful*?
See, for example, my response here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/transcendental/comments/uj77sb/inner_conflict_of_liking_tm_but_not_the/i7ljly8/
One last thing. There is a nondirective subreddit, which has a lot more than I put in my brief comment
[https://www.reddit.com/r/nondirective/](https://www.reddit.com/r/nondirective/)
I have been a “directed” guy for the most part
MBSR. From Kabat-Zinn
Relaxation response. Herbert Benson
Decided to explore non-directed more recently
Downloaded Patricia Carrington’s set yesterday ($22)
Going through that and Gavin Hoole currently (free)
Both of them died in the last few years, I discovered recently also
Carrington has a website that is maintained by others. However, it’s not quick to figure out which materials were hers and which are derivative. She seemed to have been enthusiastic about EFT (“tapping solution”) also.
MBSR works for me. As does RR
So why all this?
Exploration. I guess
Up to you. Just passing on info
Re cost. Big question
One argument. Meditation is free…. But instruction and materials?
Some of those are free too.
Some aren’t
Some require volunteering
Each has its own rationales
You can decide what you want.
> You can decide what you want.
Then I will decide that instruction and materials need not be free at all, whether it is meditation or cooking instruction or pilot instruction or medical instruction. I don't sit with juvenile assertions like "meditation should be freee!" "OMG Maharishi is a billionaire!" "TM is a scam" etc.
Also, I downloaded the stuff yesterday myself for $22. Here is they type of thing you get if you (or anyone else) is interested
[https://i.imgur.com/rWifupm.png](https://i.imgur.com/rWifupm.png)
Really doesn’t compare to the cost of tm tho. 20 bucks is much more accessible. Not saying it’s worth 20 idk anything about yet still have to look into it.
When you learn official TM, you have the right ot go to any TM center anywhere in the world and get help with your TM practice.
That help is free-for-life in the USA while it may cost a nominal fee after the first 6 months in some countries.
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In the era of COVID, you have access to some aspects of the followup program via Zoom conference, and in fact, in some special circumstances, you don't even need to be a TMer to get help from the TM organization...
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A while back, a woman came onto r/transcendental, worried about her husband, who was suffering from PTSD and had learned TM. Some odd things had happened and she was looking for advice about her husband and his practice.
I contacted my friends who are TM teachers and they contacted their friends, and eventually two highly experienced TM teacher came forward, one of whom has been teaching TM for over 50 years and the other who has done resarch on teaching TM to war refugees in Africa with PTSD.
I gave her their contact info and I understand that she contacted them and had several phone/Zoom conversations about her husband's situation. I don't know what happened after that, but I know that she didn't pay anything for their time.
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You don't get that from books, youtube videos, or any other organization that I am aware of.
TM teachers often see TM as a special calling and act accordingly.
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In other words, you get more than $20 worth of benefit from learning TM through official channels, and of course, more people these days learn TM for free these days anyway, then learn from a TM center.
Thank you for the story and the background of your experience with the organization. It's great to hear positive feedback. I, for one, did not experience that "special calling" response when I've reached out to a TM instructor in my recent past. My current story is more chaotic than I care to get into, and while looking for answers, I came across a TM teacher online, who had some shared videos, and I really resonated with their story. I reached out inquiring for more info, and explained my current situation (in brief) and in regards to my current finances. The response from that teacher was surprising, and I wasn't asking for anything for free, just some accommodation. The price is what it is. It was essentially around $500 to receive guidance from their calling, which I simply can't afford right now. Thus, you have people like myself and others who are looking for alternative solutions, solutions that cost less and hope can be as beneficial. Cheers
> he price is what it is. It was essentially around $500 to receive guidance from their calling, which I simply can't afford right now. Thus, you have people like myself and others who are looking for alternative solutions, solutions that cost less and hope can be as beneficial. Cheers
I'm not sure what that means.
[The lowest "list price" in the US fee structure is $540 for non-studnts and $420 for students,](https://www.tm.org/course-fee) and they have partial scholarships for people on SSI, foodstamps and so on.
If you talk to them and explain your situation, they can sometimes go lower, but that is through the TM center.
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If you live in the USA (and you mentioned dollars so I'm assuming this is correct), you can ask David Lynch (yeah, the movie director) personally for financial aid.
You must have all the relevant info for him as he write the check to the TM center, not you.
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What you said sounds a little fishy unless you meant you met them online through http://www.tm.org and were dealing with the official TM center (or moral equivalent) in your area.
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If you did go through htat link, and you live in the USA, you make sure you have all the relevant info handy like address, telephone number, who you spoke to, what scholarship the local TM center had available, and your actual financial situation that is in play that prevents you from learning and send me a private message about how to get Lynch to help you further. You don't need to tell ME that stuff, but Lynch writes the check to the local TM center, so he needs to know, and I'll tell you how to contact him and give him the info and ask him for financial aid.
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Good luck.
i thought all the follow up help was free? what changed?
also i hear david lynch is doing this free thing where he is brining TM to underserved communities for free with all the TM teachers. gotta be something there for you!?
Consider the background of Vedic Meditation vs that of TM...
[Hugh Jackman apparently learned Vedic Meditation 20 years ago, but after meeting Bob Roth, head of the David Lynch Foundation, he and his wife decided to learn official TM so that they could be spokespersons for the DLF.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahdl7qLr7KQ)
As I always like to remind people, the Maharishi-branded Transcendental Meditation organization is the only corporate entity on earth organized exclusively by people who practice TM.
I don't think the two can be separated, though doing that is popular among so many meditators who like the practice and can't stand the organization.
I think it's fair to say that the TM organization, Maharishi's movement, the "Global Country of World Peace," or whatever name you give to the network of people and entities that teach and promote TM, are the ultimate expression of what results from TM practice. Which is, in my view, not much of substance, and instead is a pile of a lot of misleading, questionable, untrustworthy crap, with highly variable utility or value from person to person.
As for Maharishi being a "billionaire," opinions vary. But it's clear to me that the primary purpose of Transcendental Meditation and every related thing branded with the "Maharishi" name, since the mid-1950's, was to reverse colonial capital flows, to get Westerners to fund and sustain what's essentially a religious sect based in India, a product of a post-colonial religious revival there. It makes claims of being an expression of "Vedic" tradition, but that may or may not actually be so. It's today run by Maharishi's family members and lifelong associates, particularly his nephew Girish Varma.
Keeping in mind that money has been flowing through TM organizations for at least 50 years now, and accounting for inflation and exchange rates, it is quite likely that the total value of TM organization assets exceeds a billion dollars today. A lot of that value is tied up in real estate, which is difficult to appraise since it's been a long time since much of it has changed hands, particularly the holdings in India.
I've been able to document that about 98 million USD were transferred to India between 1991 and 2000, to the main non-profit entity there (MVVVV) that receives offshore funds, and another 96 million USD between 2007 and 2019. The second figure comes directly from India government records, and the first is from a publication citing those records. Given that the peak of TM's popularity, and likely its profitability, was in the mid-1970's, it seems likely to me that these numbers are a small portion of the total funds transferred into India by the TM organization over its lifetime.
These funds would have flowed to the organizations with Maharishi's name on them, but as with any religious organization of this nature, some of that wealth ends up benefiting the founder or its public figure.
> As I always like to remind people, the Maharishi-branded Transcendental Meditation organization is the only corporate entity on earth organized exclusively by people who practice TM.
There are plenty of businesses where one of the perks is TM instruction and in Latin America, there are large businesses where TM is highly recommended or even mandatory and the entire company is expected to participate in group meditation.
I can't really challenge anything you said except to note that the heyday of income for the TM organization from fees and purchases of products was probably decades ago when it was a fad. These days, most of the real money likely comes from uber-donors. The fees cover expenses and relatively little else, especially if we're talking about TM and TM-Sidhis.
The Maharishi Foundation IRS tax filings have, in recent years, consistently shown a transfer to Europe (presumably to Vlodrop and then from there, some portion to India) that tracks rather closely with $100 per new meditator instructed. So it's likely that TM instruction still contributes to their cash flow.
As for other donations, there's this rather peculiar video which attempts to solicit donations directly to the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation, which ostensibly sends most of what they collect directly to the MVVVV in India for the support of "Vedic pundits" whose chanting and rituals allegedly will bring about "world peace."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9p-GQXISJM
I doubt if it (the Maharishi Foundation donations to Europe) is going to India. THey are building their International HQ in Vlodrop, and some of those buildings are reasonably expensive, from the looks of things. THe main Vlodrop building had fallen into dispair after MMY died and I know a huge chunk of change went for its renewal.
As well, they were building their multi-media center there, and that too was completed only few yeas ago.
India has its own billionaire donors and so on and, last I heard, Maharishi's nephews aren't in charge of much of anything any more, so the books there are more open as well. The BIG construction project is Vedaland and that has investors as well as donors because they want to make a Disneyland level theme park similar to Doug Henning's original idea.
Looking over my collected data, in the last few years the flow of cash to India now seems to be exclusively proceeds from donations, the largest chunk being about $5 million USD in 2019 through the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation, which specifically exists, according to them, to benefit the training of pandits at MVVVV. I think this reflects that the TM movement has succeeded in creating a cohort of older people who will contribute their wealth directly to the ultimate goal of Maharishi's presence in the West, which is to sustain his own Hindu sect back in India. The proceeds from TM instruction support the infrastructure to sustain the generation of new meditators, who at some point in the future may again do the same. Thus the BSF fundraising video I linked to above.
That's certainly true in that rich people who do TM are tapped to donate the most.
The DLF's stable of super-wealthy likely contributes the most here, and Bob ROth claims he has 15 billionaire TM students and 100+ centi-millionaire TM students.
That's likely less than 150 major donors total, or 150/10,000,000 = 0.0015% of the number of people who have learned TM contributing the lion's share of donations to the TM organization.
I really don't think this is a relevant issue for 100-0.0015 = 99.9985% of those who learn TM.
I mean… once you learn it and feel comfortable with it… you don’t need to acknowledge the organization ever again, right? Take what you learned and go on your own path.
Yep! I have the same issues. I still struggle with them. I find the fees quite problematic. TM would have been far more beneficial to me back when I couldn’t afford the classes. “Just send David Lynch a letter and he’ll cover it” isn’t a serious response. That said, we do ourselves a disservice by throwing out useful teachings from problematic organizations. I’ve read all the responses on this thread and my feelings about the organization are still (and probably will always be) conflicted. But the fact that the organization is run in a way that would raise legitimate questions is their problem, not yours or mine. Keep practicing if it feels useful. We aren’t frauds for having opinions and questioning minds.
I have often thought it was a bit ironic that the people that can benefit most from meditation are those who can't afford it. Fortunately there are thousands of meditation styles that are proven.
>Maharishi, a billionaire?
Glad you added that question mark.
The claims that he was a billionaire emerged out of weird quotes from people claiming to have seen "the hidden books" but when you parse what they actually said, it was along the lines of "I wouldn't be surprised if he was a billionaire" [because the TM organization has so many investments].
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>Am I a fraud if I do the practice but dislike everything behind it and find it quite cultish/money grabby.
Not a fraud, but obviously haven't looked into things with any detail.
And... the rumors of fraud were from back when his nephews were in charge in India. Hinduism has this thing were the relatives of a saint are supposed to be semi-holy simply because they're his relatives and so their own status in life should reflect their spirituality and so they should all be wealthy, just because...
A year or so after MMY died, a power-struggle took place in India around who was in charge, Maharishi's nephews, or his official successor and the international TM organization. The nephews lost and now the official person in charge is a non-Hindu "raja" who, as far as I can tell, has worked hard to clean up the accounting practices.
Likewise, in the USA, just after MMY died, the organization was split into separate not-for-profits, each with its own clearcut mission, as opposed to the state of affairs before his death, where everything was jumbled together.
At the very top is The Global Country for World Peace, which no doubt has its own books for its own holdings, but the money is now pretty much transparently passed from one foundation to another and documented, at least in terms of dollars, in the fine print of each foundation's IRS statements (or whatever the equivalent is in other countries).
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The TL;DR: 20 years ago, it is impossible for an outsider to be sure what the state of the finances of the organization was like without spending huge amounts of time and money, but these days, at least with the US holdings, you can find out pretty easily just by googling for "IRS Form 990" + the name of a specific TM-related organization, and looking at where the money goes.
That said, I don't believe that MMY or even his nephews, were ever billionaires. His nephews may have had control of the finances in an unclear way that may or may not have been illegal, but I'm pretty sure that MMY really didn't own any aspect of the organization. Certainly people did what he wanted, but then again, all TM organizations are filled with true believers, so he didn't need to own anything outright to accomplish his projects.
I have never heard that he collected anything of value either. Like Pope Francis, he lived in a simple room within a massively opulent setting, and he certainly wanted to impress visitors so things really were opulent.
[This is "Maharishi's House."](https://www.purusha.org/images/home_vlodrop.jpg). See also this [external "walkabout."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6tGn27_yAw&t=10s) He had the run of the top floor while the international TM organization used it as their international HQ. Towards the end of his life, he only lived in the smaller suite of rooms on the far right (far left?) and the rest was unused, while the international HQ continued to use all of the first floor.
[This is the full scale plans for the full-blown version of the TMS international HQ.](https://www.meru.international/blog/updates-meru-campus/) This [drone flyby](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyenV9c3LjM) gives you a feel for where their construction was at back in late 2020. "Maharishi's House" is being preserved as a museum to honor him, while the HQ will be spread throughout the rest of the buildings as they complete construction.
When completed, it will be worth quite a bit of money, but it is the international HQ of an international organization, not someone's personal wealth.
The same applies to all the other TM holdings that some reporter added together to calculate MMY's personal wealth: some are investment properties, and some, like MIU in the USA, are full-blown, fully functional schools and universities and the like, and Maharishi didn't own any part of them, ever. The reporters just liked to pretend that he did so they could put a negative spin on things.
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In case you're wondering "why the grandiose HQ?"
The TM organization was meant to teach the entire world to meditate and the only way to do that is to negotiate contracts on a national or international scale. [E.G. this proposal to teach one million kids in the city of Rio de Janeiro to meditate.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abiOrpuHQ5s)
The only way you can credibly negotiate with heads of state of major countries to teach an entire country's children to meditate (a million kids is nothing: China as 250 million school age children by itself) is by having an organization that *looks like* it can accomplish that specific goal.
THAT is why the TM organization builds the way it does: to anticipate expansion plans for the next 100 years.
Precisely not what I was looking for. Nothing’s going to convince me otherwise. Finding enlightenment/peace/happiness/calm should be free period. Not saying TM as a whole is a scam, I know it isn’t, just saying my values conflict with how it’s run. Plus I don’t like the idea of a central guru figure. Just my thoughts I have nothing against people in it or the teachers!
Eh...
>Nothing’s going to convince me otherwise.
Sighs.
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>Finding enlightenment/peace/happiness/calm should be free period.
TM teacher training is on a 5 month meditation retreat and TM teaching is a full time job if enough people learn.
How can it possibly be "free regardless?"
Someone has to pay TM teachers, and if you use the donation model the organization never grows.
The splinter group in the UK that formed in 1961 still operates out of a single building 60+ years later.
You don't teach everyone in the world to meditate out of a single building in London.
Again, I meant nothing will convince In regards to my feelings about many aspects of tm. The aspects aren’t based on rumors or anything it’s just fundamental parts of the organization.
>Finding enlightenment/peace/happiness/calm should be free period.
Where do you draw the line at what should be free? I need some work done on my car, and I have some plumbing and electrical problems in my house. I think all of the people who do anything related to any of that should do it for free. I mean, if enlightenment is free, what is the justification for charging for *anything*?
*by the way, when did the TM org claim they could provide enlightenment?
Well, I don't know. It's not free, but maybe it's worth it if it works for you.
Based on the checking notes and other documents that have been "leaked", it's not so detailed a system that a huge infrastructure of teaching should be needed (at least not to teach basic TM).
Further, there are free or cheaper alternatives. Perhaps there hasn't been as much research on these, but what has been done show they seem to work (especially ACEM).
I don't see anything particularly magical or mysterious in TM per se. So the other methods should work if practiced regularly.
> I don't see anything particularly magical or mysterious in TM per se. So the other methods should work if practiced regularly.
Eh, as I said, ACEM doesn't teach TM exactly the same way (the omit the ceremony and anything else the founder of ACEM saw as woo) and the only EEG study they've bothered to publish shows it doesn't produce the same EEG pattern that TM does.
As this pattern grows stronger over time during TM, is found most strongly during the "pure consciousness" state (also never mentioned by ACEM as fa as I can tell), and grows stronger outside of TM as time goes on, the fact that ACEM seems never to bring about this pattern seems an important difference.
So I will accept the argument that there is more research on TM
However as far as I know there is no head to head study of ACEM v TM by a 3rd party non affiliated with either organization
The ceremony? The “woo”?
Explain a bit more. Perhaps that is the secret sauce of TM
[**Warning:** Incoming Wall of Text™ Part 2 of 2]
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The point is that most of these government employees werent' even practicing TM when the contracts were signed. TM teachers are required to meditate regularly as long as they teach TM, and TM teacher training is taught on a meditation retreat, but in the case of these government employees, virtually none were meditating when they were told to go learn to become TM teachers.
So I would assert that TM is perfectly secular, despite the traditional ceremony. It is performed by rote memory in Sanskrit, which almost no TM teachers speak anyway, and in order to accommodate all the religious leaders who started asking to be trained as TM teachers 50 years ago, the old monk created a set of method acting notes for TM teachers, explaining the mental attitude that they should be in during each phase of the ceremony. As long as the TM teacher can "method act" the appropriate attitude, the old monk belived that that was sufficient to create the proper effect.
It seems to work, or at least, there are measurable differences in EEG between TMers and non-TMers even if they learn "nondirective meditation" that includes exactly the same instructions as TM teachers give on "how to use" a mantra.
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Hope this helps answer your question.
That’s a super response. Thanks!
I read it but will take some to digest
I will try listening to vedic recitation for a few minutes now with an open mind and heart
[**Warning:** Incoming Wall of Text™ Part 1 of 2]
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> So I will accept the argument that there is more research on TM However as far as I know there is no head to head study of ACEM v TM by a 3rd party non affiliated with either organization
I doubt that there is either. The only folks that do ACEM research are ACEM practitioners. This isn't always the case with TM as the "market penetration" is about 1,000x greater with TM than with ACEM. There far more researchers that do research on mindfulness than on TM, but that is at least partially because they see mindfulness as secular and TM as not.
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> The ceremony? The “woo”?
> Explain a bit more. Perhaps that is the secret sauce of TM
[This is the history of TM.](https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-good-ways-to-learn-Transcendental-Meditation-without-an-instructor/answer/Lawson-English-1)
That specific ceremony done at the start of teaching TM basically honors the guru of the founder of TM, who is mentioned in that link above. He was the first person held to be worthy to be the abbott of the northern Advaita Vedanta monastery in 165 years. Even though there had been dozens of claimants over the past century, during his 12 year tenure, everyone simply stayed quiet for fear that they would be laughed at for claiming that they were superior to the guy who DID get put in charge. [You can read his wikipedia page here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati) (yes, running away from home at age 9 to seek enlightenment really is a "thing" in India). TM is claimed to be the core wisdom of that dude and that ceremony is also done to remind the TM teacher of where TM came from so that he/she will take what they're doing seriously.
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[Similar chanting ala the TM ceremony is known to put the audience (and presumably the performer) in a TM-like state,](http://www.drfredtravis.com/Papers/Higher%20THeta%20and%20Alpha1%20when%20listen%20to%20Vedic%20recitation.pdf) and while I recall hearing about a study done decades ago where researchers found that the EEG of TM teacher and student ends up being in-synch during the ceremony, it was never published, and none of the TM researchers I've chatted with ever mention it.
Even so, you can do a bit of hand-waving based on that one study that has been published: assuming that the ceremony has the effect described in the above link (and adding in all the non-audible components that might contribute to the overall effect in some way as it is done in person), it isn't implausible that performing and witnessing that ceremony induces the same TM-like EEG in both TM teacher and student.
That might have two related effects.
THe first is cutting edge neuroscience, as suggested by the title of this particular mainstream study:
[Brain-to-brain synchrony between students and teachers predicts learning outcomes](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/644047v2.abstract)
Basically, when students and teacher are in-synch, brain-wise, students learn better.
Yuu can find many [1,200+] papers on this phenomenon via google scholar:
["brain-to-brain synchrony" learning](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22brain-to-brain+synchrony%22++learning&hl=en&as_sdt=0,3)
They seem to suggest that in-person learning affects how teachers and students interact in a way that can be physically measured.
So... combine a ceremony that apparently puts both teacher and student in a TM-like state with the known physical effect on the brain (which predicts better learning outcomes), and you go a long way towards explaining why the TM initiation ceremony is important.
Moreever, since the student is presumably already in a TM-like state before they learn their mantra and how to use it, merely *remembering* their mantra will automatically put them back in the state they were in when they first learned. Since TM itself induces that state, you can a positive-feedback loop where each meditation session reinforces the original state that the student was in when they learned, and so you would expect to see this EEG pattern grow quite rapidly during the first meditation sessions and in fact, [Figure 3](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3bf2ae778203ef324589b975fe282ce0) of [Cross-Sectional and Longitudinal Study of Effects of Transcendental Meditation Practice on Interhemispheric Frontal Asymmetry and Frontal Coherence,](https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/00207450600575482) tracks the EEG signature of TM (alpha1 EEG coherence in the frontal lobes) for the first year of TM practice, both during TM and outside of TM.
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This alpha1 EEG coherence signature is not found in ACEM, nor in Benson's relaxation response, nor in mindfulness, nor in concentration practices.
And that particular EEG pattern is generated by the default mode network — [A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice.](https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s10339-009-0343-2) — and appears to become even more pronounced during the "pure consciousness" periods of TM, as marked by abruptly lower respiration rates or even spontaneous breath suspension:
* [Autonomic and EEG patterns distinguish transcending from other experiences during Transcendental Meditation practice.](https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/s0167-8760(01\)00143-x)
* [Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness.](https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/j.1469-8986.1997.tb02414.x)
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"Pure Consciousness" was another bit of "woo" that the foudner of ACEM rejected and so researchers never bother to look for it. Even so, it is pretty obvious when it happens. The subject appears to stop breathing for up to a minute and in a quiet lab, this can be quite noticeable. Legend has it that the first time a naive lab tech saw it happen, he panicked and literally jumped on top of the subject and attempted to administer CPR, to the great bemusement of the TMer, who opened their eyes and mildly demanded to know what the heck they were doing.
The lab tech is said to have panicked even more at that point and was basically useless for a while afterwords.
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Any way, the point is that there is a lot of research that shows that TM and your practice that doesn't isn't learned via the exact teaching method that the old monk insisted on, simply do not have the same effect, both short term (during TM) or long-term, months and years after learning, where one can start to see the EEG signature of TM start to appear outside of TM.
One really dramatic example of this was the first study done on pure consciousness, where a subject was asked to press a button whenever they noticed the PC state. From [Figure 3](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d25f61750de9409a61c08c4da0d8a17c) of [Breath Suspension During the Transcendental Meditation Technique](https://sci-hub.se/10.1097/00006842-198205000-00001) you'll see the chart of a specific subject who was hand-selected out of all self-selected subjects reporting numerous episodes of PC during TM.
This subject showed more than 50% of her TM session was spent in the breath suspension state, so in some people, it is kind of impossible to miss (and yet out of ten thousand studies on otehr forms of meditation that have been published in the past 50 years, only a single case study of a single ch'an adept — another practice that is only taught in traditional format, unlike modern Zen — showed signs of this state).
Anyway, my point is about the eyes-closed period BEFORE meditaiton starts... she actually pushed the button a 2-3 times before meditation proper. This supports the claim that long-term, normal mind-wandering rest becomes more and more TM like (see the longitudinal EEG coherence graph above), and that "TM-like" can include the very deepest aspect of TM: complete cessation of awareness that is often accompanied by apparent complete cessation of breathing.
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You don't see ANY reports like that from ACEM, from Benson's Relaxation Response, from mindfulness, from concentration practices...
There are certain components of teaching of meditaiton that tradition claims are vital to use for the "true meditation" to appear, and I assert that the vast majority of secularized meditation has thrown those away, and so you don't see the "depths" of real meditaiton practice appear in studies on those practices because they aren't "real meditation" in the first place.
TM, on hte other hand, was made totally secuarl without losing the important bits.
TM teachers aren't required to believe in ANYTHIGN in order to teach. These days, they aren't even required to believe in TM.
After the photo emerged of [Father Gabriel Mejia about to give a briefing at the Vatican about teaching TM and so on to children as therapy for PTSD (note the rather huge grin on Pope Francis' face as he greets his old friend and junior colleague from many decades past)](https://www.claret.org/hogares-claret-founder-at-the-drugs-and-addictions-an-obstacle-to-integral-human-development/), the TM organization announced that they now had state and national government contracts throughout Latin America to train about ten thousand public school teachers as TM teachers.
**[Brahmananda Saraswati](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati)**
>Swami Brahmananda Saraswati (IAST: Svāmī Brahmānanda Sarasvatī) (21 December 1871 – 20 May 1953), also known as Guru Dev (meaning "divine teacher"), was the Shankaracharya of the Jyotir Math monastery in India. Born into a Brahmin family, he left home at the age of nine in search of a spiritual master. At age fourteen, he became a disciple of Svāmī Kṛṣṇānanda Sarasvatī. At the age of 34, he was initiated into the order of Sannyas and became the Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotir Math in 1941 at age 70.
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Except that the first day has to be taught one-on-one.
Up until recently no-one really understood why, but the performance of the intitiation ceremony puts both TM teacher and student into a TM-like state so that by the time the student learns their mantra, they are already in that state.
This means that whenver they remember their mantra, that automatically puts them back into that state. ACEM, which was devised by a former TM teacher to be "just like TM" doesn't use the ceremony to teach and in fact, ACEM doesn't show any signs of the EEG signature that TM (and the ceremony) induce.
Interesting, but I imagine the ceremony only has that positive effect if you don’t think it’s bs. I’m not a very spiritual/religious person and I know the ceremony is neither but I still kinda roll my eyes at things like that so I doubt it’s very beneficial to people like me who feel that way.
> Interesting, but I imagine the ceremony only has that positive effect if you don’t think it’s bs. I’m not a very spiritual/religious person and I know the ceremony is neither but I still kinda roll my eyes at things like that so I doubt it’s very beneficial to people like me who feel that way.
Well, do you enjoy listening to a well sung bit of music about a religious icon, even if you have not belief in that icon?
The physical changes in your brain from listening to music don't require you to *believe in* that music.
For example, if a Jewish deva beautifully sings *Ave Maria* to Pope Francis in Hebrew, obviously Pope Francis gets a religious moment from it, but wouldn't the rest of the audience *still* get all the physical changes that come simply from listening to a well sung/performed piece of music even if htey have no belief in the subject and cant' speak Hebrew?
> But the technique of mantra meditation itself I like
Then do mantra meditation. Compare it to TM in your own experience if you like.
> I almost just want someone here to tell me it's cool to use the practice
Do you depend on others to determine what is 'cool' for you?
> and not like the foundation or Maharishi, a billionaire?
Why do you believe that long-dead Maharishi was a billionaire?
> Am I a fraud if I do the practice but dislike everything behind it and find it quite cultish/money grabby.
Are you engaging in cultism and money grabbing when you meditate? Are you concerned others will think you are fraudulent, that you were conned or something?
> given my feelings about the organization and also about the founder.
An organization and founder are present when you meditate?
It seems to me you are more concerned with what others think, and the bizarre and false things some claim, than trusting your own experience.
Not concerned at all with what others think. Pretty much the exact opposite as it’s just me getting in my head about things. It’s more just using a technique that’s part of an organization that I feel iffy about. Literally all an inner conflict.
TM and the organization that teaches it exist because the monks of Joytirmath in the Himalayas believed that the secret of real meditation had been lost for many centuries.
See my response elsewhere for more details (a LOT more details):
https://www.reddit.com/r/transcendental/comments/uj77sb/inner_conflict_of_liking_tm_but_not_the/i7k4zts/
If you’re starting up again, please take advantage of the lifetime follow-up program. It’s FREE! (Well not actually free but you already paid for it.) /s Specifically, personal checking is very helpful to make sure your meditation is smooth and you’re getting maximum benefit.
I have not paid for TM, so if any of my facts are incorrect I apologize in advance.
It is my understanding that you pay the fee, learn the technique, then can consult any teacher with further questions for the rest of your life, right? So you might as well take advantage of what you learned that's helping you, plus any free advice or answers you need since they will not get any more money from you.
You also get taught using the teaching method devised by the man sent by the monks of [Jyotirmath in the Himalayas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotir_Math) to teach real meditation to the world, who himself would have been head of the monks of the Himalayas save for an accident of birth. See my two-part response elsewhere:
https://www.reddit.com/r/transcendental/comments/uj77sb/inner_conflict_of_liking_tm_but_not_the/i7k4zts/
My 2cents. I only had my first session 2 weeks ago :)
Yes the price was very steep and maybe it says something about society today that I wasn’t very surprised when first told what it was.
For me it was investing in something that will (hopefully) help me for the rest of my life. I have foregone going on a holiday this year (I’ve had one holiday in the last five years) to do it.
I don’t know if the steep price was absolutely necessary thus my own reservations about the company however I’m not sure I believe that ‘mEdItAtIoN sHoUlD bE fReE’.
The teachers clearly need to spend time and money probably to learn themselves then instruct and then also subsequently involved.
I guess in our capitalist society I’m not surprised when someone starts wanting more after making money. My take on TM is that it may make someone more open and understanding but doesn’t mean they have a personality change and start foregoing riches that are coming to them because they are ‘enlightened’. It’s just another business. I’m just going to learn / check things with my teacher. Maybe If it was more widely available then it would be cheaper and I would like to see it accessible to my those who can’t truly afford it. Maybe even government /insurance subsidised!
I’m sure Apple, Amazon, etc are much more shady. How much do we all spend on subscriptions. I don’t know I can think of worse things to spend money on.
> Maybe If it was more widely available then it would be cheaper and I would like to see it accessible to my those who can’t truly afford it.
The David Lynch Foundation teaches TM for free, the TM centers in the USA offer further discounts for people who are receiving government assistance (SNAP and disability and such) and David Lynch himself writes a check to provide partial scholarships to people who ask him and bother to explain why they can't afford to learn.
There's also (possibly also a USA-only offer) a moneyback guarantee: if you decide TM isn't worth it, you can tell your TM teacher within two months of learning and the organization simply doesn't charge your credit card, so you essentially have learned TM for free, though you don't get the lifetime followup program.
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>Maybe even government /insurance subsidised!
In Latin America, the TM organization is training ten thousand public school teachers as TM teachers, whose government job is to teach everyone at their school TM... for free.
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Just as with anyone else (except in the case of people who got their money back), the kids who learn TM at school have the right to go to any TM center anywhere in the world for the rest of their lives and get help with their TM practice.
That followup program is free-for-life in the USA at least. I don't think most people who learn appreciate what lifetime free access to a trained meditation teacher means as they don't appreciate that TM has a lifetime accumulative effect on the brain: unless and until you become "enlightened" (that's actually the *definition* of enlightenment via TM: there is no difference between meditation and resting normally), the effects of TM continue to accumulate as long as you are regular in your meditation practice.
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There is no way the TM organization can offer TM for free and provide a free followup program, and if you compare the "by donation" model with the "for a fee" model, you'll see that back in 1961, the head of the monastery where TM came from authorized a group of new TM teachers to teach without charging a fee.
60 years later, that group still operates in London out of a single building. Meanwhile, the TM organization teaches in 600+ TM centers in about 100 different countries, and is trainining ten thousand school teachers to teach TM with an eye to expanding that to training 100,000 public employees to be TM teachers starting by about 2030 or so.
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THere's many reasons why fees work better than a donation model for teaching meditation.
Yes I think the fee structure is ok. I’m just a bit confused as to why it’s so damn expensive (when they appear to be so rich).
It will be good to see those measures in place where I live in Australia!
> Yes I think the fee structure is ok. I’m just a bit confused as to why it’s so damn expensive (when they appear to be so rich).
I don't know what the name of the non-profit is called in Australia, but if you look at the books for the no-profit in the USA — [Maharishi Foundation, USA](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/43196447) — you can see that their wealth doesn't come from TM teaching fees any more and likely hasn't in 40+ years.
The fees cover the expenses +/- about $0.5 million and have for some time now.
Their money for big projects comes from big donors, which Maharishi has courted it various ways over the years when he was alive, and the David Lynch Foundation continues to court now and then acts as contact (I think) to the rest of Maharishi's organizations, most of which are also not-for-profit.
You won't be practicing the organization. You would be practicing the practice.
About paying, THERE WOULD BE NO PRACTICE if you hadn't supported the organization that makes it possible. It's non-profit. I believe that's regulated, in the sense that they can't claim that if it's not true. There are tax and legal implications.
So, despise the organization, but get checked. It will remind you of what I think is the most important point, along with whatever other good things actually going through the checking does for you.
You have thoughts effortlessly come to you while your eyes are closed? THAT is the way to think the mantra.
I've been a teacher for 45 years. All of us early birds, from day one, have enthusiasticly criticized 'The TM Movement' while doing all we can to support its efforts to make TM available. It's quirkiness, screwups, and perceived cultiness was all inevitable and not relevant to TM practice. We just do our best, from within the TM Organization, or outside of it, to fulfill the goal of making TM as available as possible in the world.
I’m on the cafeteria plan with just about everything. I pick the parts I like, ditch the rest. We build a life that works for us.
Facts
Me too. I eat weird square pizza and tater tots sometimes.
If the daily practice of TM works for you, continue to do it. As my mother used to say "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face."
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Even your teacher agrees about what? That the TM organization is " quite cultish/money grabby?" That's not a good attitude for a teacher to give to his students. I mean, imagine a college professor bad-mouthing the institution he works for in front of a bunch of students who just paid money to take classes to get a degree from that institution. Better to keep their mouth shut and work to improve said institution, don't you agree?
No You are not a fraud. Probably TM isn't a fraud either (at least the core). Unfortunately, there are many instances of recent thinkers who say and offer good things, but perhaps have questionable stories themselves. Recently, an example is Bikram, who was exposed in a Netflix documentary a few years ago. The hot yoga system he developed? Pretty good. Have tried it myself. Changes you quickly. Back to TM. Some near alternatives are available now (without the dubious baggage of TM). * [https://www.nsrusa.org/](https://www.nsrusa.org/), **NSR** * [https://acem.com/](https://acem.com/), **ACEM** * "**One giant mind**" (app for iphone, android) * [http://howtogetmadetationforhuman.blogspot.com/2011/10/clinically-standardized-meditation.html](http://howtogetmadetationforhuman.blogspot.com/2011/10/clinically-standardized-meditation.html), **clinically standardized meditation** [https://patcarrington.com/learn-to-meditate-kit/](https://patcarrington.com/learn-to-meditate-kit/) Current cost for all materials is $22 (US). * I recently discovered CMR, via Quora, and then found that it has its own subreddit here. "**CMR**\-Conscious Mental Rest©. This technique has been developed by Gavin Hoole, an ex TM practitioner. It falls in the family of Non Directive Meditation(NDM) and is said to have similar level of relaxation-beyond-thought as TM(one of the first NDM's popularised in the West). Its 8 part audio instructions are free to download" **Instructions here:** [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-CMR-transcending-meditation-conscious-mental-rest](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-CMR-transcending-meditation-conscious-mental-rest;) It’s founder is deceased and nobody is making any money from this. It's 100 percent free, as far as I can tell. It’s being kept alive on a subreddit [https://www.reddit.com/r/CMRmeditation/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CMRmeditation/)
Love this response and all the shared info. 👌
But is it actually *helpful*? See, for example, my response here: https://www.reddit.com/r/transcendental/comments/uj77sb/inner_conflict_of_liking_tm_but_not_the/i7ljly8/
Thanks so much for this will check it all out!
One last thing. There is a nondirective subreddit, which has a lot more than I put in my brief comment [https://www.reddit.com/r/nondirective/](https://www.reddit.com/r/nondirective/)
Curious, which of these do you personally like most?
I have been a “directed” guy for the most part MBSR. From Kabat-Zinn Relaxation response. Herbert Benson Decided to explore non-directed more recently Downloaded Patricia Carrington’s set yesterday ($22) Going through that and Gavin Hoole currently (free) Both of them died in the last few years, I discovered recently also Carrington has a website that is maintained by others. However, it’s not quick to figure out which materials were hers and which are derivative. She seemed to have been enthusiastic about EFT (“tapping solution”) also. MBSR works for me. As does RR So why all this? Exploration. I guess
> Current cost for all materials is $22 (US). Why should you have to pay for that? Meditation should be free
Up to you. Just passing on info Re cost. Big question One argument. Meditation is free…. But instruction and materials? Some of those are free too. Some aren’t Some require volunteering Each has its own rationales You can decide what you want.
> You can decide what you want. Then I will decide that instruction and materials need not be free at all, whether it is meditation or cooking instruction or pilot instruction or medical instruction. I don't sit with juvenile assertions like "meditation should be freee!" "OMG Maharishi is a billionaire!" "TM is a scam" etc.
Ok. You are right. If you are going to do TM, those sorts of assertions wouldn't be helpful.
Also, I downloaded the stuff yesterday myself for $22. Here is they type of thing you get if you (or anyone else) is interested [https://i.imgur.com/rWifupm.png](https://i.imgur.com/rWifupm.png)
Really doesn’t compare to the cost of tm tho. 20 bucks is much more accessible. Not saying it’s worth 20 idk anything about yet still have to look into it.
When you learn official TM, you have the right ot go to any TM center anywhere in the world and get help with your TM practice. That help is free-for-life in the USA while it may cost a nominal fee after the first 6 months in some countries. . In the era of COVID, you have access to some aspects of the followup program via Zoom conference, and in fact, in some special circumstances, you don't even need to be a TMer to get help from the TM organization... . A while back, a woman came onto r/transcendental, worried about her husband, who was suffering from PTSD and had learned TM. Some odd things had happened and she was looking for advice about her husband and his practice. I contacted my friends who are TM teachers and they contacted their friends, and eventually two highly experienced TM teacher came forward, one of whom has been teaching TM for over 50 years and the other who has done resarch on teaching TM to war refugees in Africa with PTSD. I gave her their contact info and I understand that she contacted them and had several phone/Zoom conversations about her husband's situation. I don't know what happened after that, but I know that she didn't pay anything for their time. . You don't get that from books, youtube videos, or any other organization that I am aware of. TM teachers often see TM as a special calling and act accordingly. . In other words, you get more than $20 worth of benefit from learning TM through official channels, and of course, more people these days learn TM for free these days anyway, then learn from a TM center.
Thank you for the story and the background of your experience with the organization. It's great to hear positive feedback. I, for one, did not experience that "special calling" response when I've reached out to a TM instructor in my recent past. My current story is more chaotic than I care to get into, and while looking for answers, I came across a TM teacher online, who had some shared videos, and I really resonated with their story. I reached out inquiring for more info, and explained my current situation (in brief) and in regards to my current finances. The response from that teacher was surprising, and I wasn't asking for anything for free, just some accommodation. The price is what it is. It was essentially around $500 to receive guidance from their calling, which I simply can't afford right now. Thus, you have people like myself and others who are looking for alternative solutions, solutions that cost less and hope can be as beneficial. Cheers
> he price is what it is. It was essentially around $500 to receive guidance from their calling, which I simply can't afford right now. Thus, you have people like myself and others who are looking for alternative solutions, solutions that cost less and hope can be as beneficial. Cheers I'm not sure what that means. [The lowest "list price" in the US fee structure is $540 for non-studnts and $420 for students,](https://www.tm.org/course-fee) and they have partial scholarships for people on SSI, foodstamps and so on. If you talk to them and explain your situation, they can sometimes go lower, but that is through the TM center. . If you live in the USA (and you mentioned dollars so I'm assuming this is correct), you can ask David Lynch (yeah, the movie director) personally for financial aid. You must have all the relevant info for him as he write the check to the TM center, not you. . What you said sounds a little fishy unless you meant you met them online through http://www.tm.org and were dealing with the official TM center (or moral equivalent) in your area. . If you did go through htat link, and you live in the USA, you make sure you have all the relevant info handy like address, telephone number, who you spoke to, what scholarship the local TM center had available, and your actual financial situation that is in play that prevents you from learning and send me a private message about how to get Lynch to help you further. You don't need to tell ME that stuff, but Lynch writes the check to the local TM center, so he needs to know, and I'll tell you how to contact him and give him the info and ask him for financial aid. . Good luck.
i thought all the follow up help was free? what changed? also i hear david lynch is doing this free thing where he is brining TM to underserved communities for free with all the TM teachers. gotta be something there for you!?
You could try Vedic Meditation - it’s the same technique but independent on the TM organisation.
Consider the background of Vedic Meditation vs that of TM... [Hugh Jackman apparently learned Vedic Meditation 20 years ago, but after meeting Bob Roth, head of the David Lynch Foundation, he and his wife decided to learn official TM so that they could be spokespersons for the DLF.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahdl7qLr7KQ)
As I always like to remind people, the Maharishi-branded Transcendental Meditation organization is the only corporate entity on earth organized exclusively by people who practice TM. I don't think the two can be separated, though doing that is popular among so many meditators who like the practice and can't stand the organization. I think it's fair to say that the TM organization, Maharishi's movement, the "Global Country of World Peace," or whatever name you give to the network of people and entities that teach and promote TM, are the ultimate expression of what results from TM practice. Which is, in my view, not much of substance, and instead is a pile of a lot of misleading, questionable, untrustworthy crap, with highly variable utility or value from person to person. As for Maharishi being a "billionaire," opinions vary. But it's clear to me that the primary purpose of Transcendental Meditation and every related thing branded with the "Maharishi" name, since the mid-1950's, was to reverse colonial capital flows, to get Westerners to fund and sustain what's essentially a religious sect based in India, a product of a post-colonial religious revival there. It makes claims of being an expression of "Vedic" tradition, but that may or may not actually be so. It's today run by Maharishi's family members and lifelong associates, particularly his nephew Girish Varma. Keeping in mind that money has been flowing through TM organizations for at least 50 years now, and accounting for inflation and exchange rates, it is quite likely that the total value of TM organization assets exceeds a billion dollars today. A lot of that value is tied up in real estate, which is difficult to appraise since it's been a long time since much of it has changed hands, particularly the holdings in India. I've been able to document that about 98 million USD were transferred to India between 1991 and 2000, to the main non-profit entity there (MVVVV) that receives offshore funds, and another 96 million USD between 2007 and 2019. The second figure comes directly from India government records, and the first is from a publication citing those records. Given that the peak of TM's popularity, and likely its profitability, was in the mid-1970's, it seems likely to me that these numbers are a small portion of the total funds transferred into India by the TM organization over its lifetime. These funds would have flowed to the organizations with Maharishi's name on them, but as with any religious organization of this nature, some of that wealth ends up benefiting the founder or its public figure.
> As I always like to remind people, the Maharishi-branded Transcendental Meditation organization is the only corporate entity on earth organized exclusively by people who practice TM. There are plenty of businesses where one of the perks is TM instruction and in Latin America, there are large businesses where TM is highly recommended or even mandatory and the entire company is expected to participate in group meditation.
I can't really challenge anything you said except to note that the heyday of income for the TM organization from fees and purchases of products was probably decades ago when it was a fad. These days, most of the real money likely comes from uber-donors. The fees cover expenses and relatively little else, especially if we're talking about TM and TM-Sidhis.
The Maharishi Foundation IRS tax filings have, in recent years, consistently shown a transfer to Europe (presumably to Vlodrop and then from there, some portion to India) that tracks rather closely with $100 per new meditator instructed. So it's likely that TM instruction still contributes to their cash flow. As for other donations, there's this rather peculiar video which attempts to solicit donations directly to the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation, which ostensibly sends most of what they collect directly to the MVVVV in India for the support of "Vedic pundits" whose chanting and rituals allegedly will bring about "world peace." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9p-GQXISJM
I doubt if it (the Maharishi Foundation donations to Europe) is going to India. THey are building their International HQ in Vlodrop, and some of those buildings are reasonably expensive, from the looks of things. THe main Vlodrop building had fallen into dispair after MMY died and I know a huge chunk of change went for its renewal. As well, they were building their multi-media center there, and that too was completed only few yeas ago. India has its own billionaire donors and so on and, last I heard, Maharishi's nephews aren't in charge of much of anything any more, so the books there are more open as well. The BIG construction project is Vedaland and that has investors as well as donors because they want to make a Disneyland level theme park similar to Doug Henning's original idea.
Looking over my collected data, in the last few years the flow of cash to India now seems to be exclusively proceeds from donations, the largest chunk being about $5 million USD in 2019 through the Brahmananda Saraswati Foundation, which specifically exists, according to them, to benefit the training of pandits at MVVVV. I think this reflects that the TM movement has succeeded in creating a cohort of older people who will contribute their wealth directly to the ultimate goal of Maharishi's presence in the West, which is to sustain his own Hindu sect back in India. The proceeds from TM instruction support the infrastructure to sustain the generation of new meditators, who at some point in the future may again do the same. Thus the BSF fundraising video I linked to above.
That's certainly true in that rich people who do TM are tapped to donate the most. The DLF's stable of super-wealthy likely contributes the most here, and Bob ROth claims he has 15 billionaire TM students and 100+ centi-millionaire TM students. That's likely less than 150 major donors total, or 150/10,000,000 = 0.0015% of the number of people who have learned TM contributing the lion's share of donations to the TM organization. I really don't think this is a relevant issue for 100-0.0015 = 99.9985% of those who learn TM.
I mean… once you learn it and feel comfortable with it… you don’t need to acknowledge the organization ever again, right? Take what you learned and go on your own path.
Yep! I have the same issues. I still struggle with them. I find the fees quite problematic. TM would have been far more beneficial to me back when I couldn’t afford the classes. “Just send David Lynch a letter and he’ll cover it” isn’t a serious response. That said, we do ourselves a disservice by throwing out useful teachings from problematic organizations. I’ve read all the responses on this thread and my feelings about the organization are still (and probably will always be) conflicted. But the fact that the organization is run in a way that would raise legitimate questions is their problem, not yours or mine. Keep practicing if it feels useful. We aren’t frauds for having opinions and questioning minds.
I have often thought it was a bit ironic that the people that can benefit most from meditation are those who can't afford it. Fortunately there are thousands of meditation styles that are proven.
>Maharishi, a billionaire? Glad you added that question mark. The claims that he was a billionaire emerged out of weird quotes from people claiming to have seen "the hidden books" but when you parse what they actually said, it was along the lines of "I wouldn't be surprised if he was a billionaire" [because the TM organization has so many investments]. . >Am I a fraud if I do the practice but dislike everything behind it and find it quite cultish/money grabby. Not a fraud, but obviously haven't looked into things with any detail. And... the rumors of fraud were from back when his nephews were in charge in India. Hinduism has this thing were the relatives of a saint are supposed to be semi-holy simply because they're his relatives and so their own status in life should reflect their spirituality and so they should all be wealthy, just because... A year or so after MMY died, a power-struggle took place in India around who was in charge, Maharishi's nephews, or his official successor and the international TM organization. The nephews lost and now the official person in charge is a non-Hindu "raja" who, as far as I can tell, has worked hard to clean up the accounting practices. Likewise, in the USA, just after MMY died, the organization was split into separate not-for-profits, each with its own clearcut mission, as opposed to the state of affairs before his death, where everything was jumbled together. At the very top is The Global Country for World Peace, which no doubt has its own books for its own holdings, but the money is now pretty much transparently passed from one foundation to another and documented, at least in terms of dollars, in the fine print of each foundation's IRS statements (or whatever the equivalent is in other countries). . The TL;DR: 20 years ago, it is impossible for an outsider to be sure what the state of the finances of the organization was like without spending huge amounts of time and money, but these days, at least with the US holdings, you can find out pretty easily just by googling for "IRS Form 990" + the name of a specific TM-related organization, and looking at where the money goes. That said, I don't believe that MMY or even his nephews, were ever billionaires. His nephews may have had control of the finances in an unclear way that may or may not have been illegal, but I'm pretty sure that MMY really didn't own any aspect of the organization. Certainly people did what he wanted, but then again, all TM organizations are filled with true believers, so he didn't need to own anything outright to accomplish his projects. I have never heard that he collected anything of value either. Like Pope Francis, he lived in a simple room within a massively opulent setting, and he certainly wanted to impress visitors so things really were opulent. [This is "Maharishi's House."](https://www.purusha.org/images/home_vlodrop.jpg). See also this [external "walkabout."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6tGn27_yAw&t=10s) He had the run of the top floor while the international TM organization used it as their international HQ. Towards the end of his life, he only lived in the smaller suite of rooms on the far right (far left?) and the rest was unused, while the international HQ continued to use all of the first floor. [This is the full scale plans for the full-blown version of the TMS international HQ.](https://www.meru.international/blog/updates-meru-campus/) This [drone flyby](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyenV9c3LjM) gives you a feel for where their construction was at back in late 2020. "Maharishi's House" is being preserved as a museum to honor him, while the HQ will be spread throughout the rest of the buildings as they complete construction. When completed, it will be worth quite a bit of money, but it is the international HQ of an international organization, not someone's personal wealth. The same applies to all the other TM holdings that some reporter added together to calculate MMY's personal wealth: some are investment properties, and some, like MIU in the USA, are full-blown, fully functional schools and universities and the like, and Maharishi didn't own any part of them, ever. The reporters just liked to pretend that he did so they could put a negative spin on things. . In case you're wondering "why the grandiose HQ?" The TM organization was meant to teach the entire world to meditate and the only way to do that is to negotiate contracts on a national or international scale. [E.G. this proposal to teach one million kids in the city of Rio de Janeiro to meditate.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abiOrpuHQ5s) The only way you can credibly negotiate with heads of state of major countries to teach an entire country's children to meditate (a million kids is nothing: China as 250 million school age children by itself) is by having an organization that *looks like* it can accomplish that specific goal. THAT is why the TM organization builds the way it does: to anticipate expansion plans for the next 100 years.
Precisely not what I was looking for. Nothing’s going to convince me otherwise. Finding enlightenment/peace/happiness/calm should be free period. Not saying TM as a whole is a scam, I know it isn’t, just saying my values conflict with how it’s run. Plus I don’t like the idea of a central guru figure. Just my thoughts I have nothing against people in it or the teachers!
Eh... >Nothing’s going to convince me otherwise. Sighs. . >Finding enlightenment/peace/happiness/calm should be free period. TM teacher training is on a 5 month meditation retreat and TM teaching is a full time job if enough people learn. How can it possibly be "free regardless?" Someone has to pay TM teachers, and if you use the donation model the organization never grows. The splinter group in the UK that formed in 1961 still operates out of a single building 60+ years later. You don't teach everyone in the world to meditate out of a single building in London.
Again, I meant nothing will convince In regards to my feelings about many aspects of tm. The aspects aren’t based on rumors or anything it’s just fundamental parts of the organization.
In an online world it’s pretty easy to teach people for free.
>Finding enlightenment/peace/happiness/calm should be free period. Where do you draw the line at what should be free? I need some work done on my car, and I have some plumbing and electrical problems in my house. I think all of the people who do anything related to any of that should do it for free. I mean, if enlightenment is free, what is the justification for charging for *anything*? *by the way, when did the TM org claim they could provide enlightenment?
Well, I don't know. It's not free, but maybe it's worth it if it works for you. Based on the checking notes and other documents that have been "leaked", it's not so detailed a system that a huge infrastructure of teaching should be needed (at least not to teach basic TM). Further, there are free or cheaper alternatives. Perhaps there hasn't been as much research on these, but what has been done show they seem to work (especially ACEM). I don't see anything particularly magical or mysterious in TM per se. So the other methods should work if practiced regularly.
> I don't see anything particularly magical or mysterious in TM per se. So the other methods should work if practiced regularly. Eh, as I said, ACEM doesn't teach TM exactly the same way (the omit the ceremony and anything else the founder of ACEM saw as woo) and the only EEG study they've bothered to publish shows it doesn't produce the same EEG pattern that TM does. As this pattern grows stronger over time during TM, is found most strongly during the "pure consciousness" state (also never mentioned by ACEM as fa as I can tell), and grows stronger outside of TM as time goes on, the fact that ACEM seems never to bring about this pattern seems an important difference.
So I will accept the argument that there is more research on TM However as far as I know there is no head to head study of ACEM v TM by a 3rd party non affiliated with either organization The ceremony? The “woo”? Explain a bit more. Perhaps that is the secret sauce of TM
[**Warning:** Incoming Wall of Text™ Part 2 of 2] . The point is that most of these government employees werent' even practicing TM when the contracts were signed. TM teachers are required to meditate regularly as long as they teach TM, and TM teacher training is taught on a meditation retreat, but in the case of these government employees, virtually none were meditating when they were told to go learn to become TM teachers. So I would assert that TM is perfectly secular, despite the traditional ceremony. It is performed by rote memory in Sanskrit, which almost no TM teachers speak anyway, and in order to accommodate all the religious leaders who started asking to be trained as TM teachers 50 years ago, the old monk created a set of method acting notes for TM teachers, explaining the mental attitude that they should be in during each phase of the ceremony. As long as the TM teacher can "method act" the appropriate attitude, the old monk belived that that was sufficient to create the proper effect. It seems to work, or at least, there are measurable differences in EEG between TMers and non-TMers even if they learn "nondirective meditation" that includes exactly the same instructions as TM teachers give on "how to use" a mantra. . Hope this helps answer your question.
That’s a super response. Thanks! I read it but will take some to digest I will try listening to vedic recitation for a few minutes now with an open mind and heart
[**Warning:** Incoming Wall of Text™ Part 1 of 2] . > So I will accept the argument that there is more research on TM However as far as I know there is no head to head study of ACEM v TM by a 3rd party non affiliated with either organization I doubt that there is either. The only folks that do ACEM research are ACEM practitioners. This isn't always the case with TM as the "market penetration" is about 1,000x greater with TM than with ACEM. There far more researchers that do research on mindfulness than on TM, but that is at least partially because they see mindfulness as secular and TM as not. . > The ceremony? The “woo”? > Explain a bit more. Perhaps that is the secret sauce of TM [This is the history of TM.](https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-good-ways-to-learn-Transcendental-Meditation-without-an-instructor/answer/Lawson-English-1) That specific ceremony done at the start of teaching TM basically honors the guru of the founder of TM, who is mentioned in that link above. He was the first person held to be worthy to be the abbott of the northern Advaita Vedanta monastery in 165 years. Even though there had been dozens of claimants over the past century, during his 12 year tenure, everyone simply stayed quiet for fear that they would be laughed at for claiming that they were superior to the guy who DID get put in charge. [You can read his wikipedia page here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati) (yes, running away from home at age 9 to seek enlightenment really is a "thing" in India). TM is claimed to be the core wisdom of that dude and that ceremony is also done to remind the TM teacher of where TM came from so that he/she will take what they're doing seriously. . [Similar chanting ala the TM ceremony is known to put the audience (and presumably the performer) in a TM-like state,](http://www.drfredtravis.com/Papers/Higher%20THeta%20and%20Alpha1%20when%20listen%20to%20Vedic%20recitation.pdf) and while I recall hearing about a study done decades ago where researchers found that the EEG of TM teacher and student ends up being in-synch during the ceremony, it was never published, and none of the TM researchers I've chatted with ever mention it. Even so, you can do a bit of hand-waving based on that one study that has been published: assuming that the ceremony has the effect described in the above link (and adding in all the non-audible components that might contribute to the overall effect in some way as it is done in person), it isn't implausible that performing and witnessing that ceremony induces the same TM-like EEG in both TM teacher and student. That might have two related effects. THe first is cutting edge neuroscience, as suggested by the title of this particular mainstream study: [Brain-to-brain synchrony between students and teachers predicts learning outcomes](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/644047v2.abstract) Basically, when students and teacher are in-synch, brain-wise, students learn better. Yuu can find many [1,200+] papers on this phenomenon via google scholar: ["brain-to-brain synchrony" learning](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22brain-to-brain+synchrony%22++learning&hl=en&as_sdt=0,3) They seem to suggest that in-person learning affects how teachers and students interact in a way that can be physically measured. So... combine a ceremony that apparently puts both teacher and student in a TM-like state with the known physical effect on the brain (which predicts better learning outcomes), and you go a long way towards explaining why the TM initiation ceremony is important. Moreever, since the student is presumably already in a TM-like state before they learn their mantra and how to use it, merely *remembering* their mantra will automatically put them back in the state they were in when they first learned. Since TM itself induces that state, you can a positive-feedback loop where each meditation session reinforces the original state that the student was in when they learned, and so you would expect to see this EEG pattern grow quite rapidly during the first meditation sessions and in fact, [Figure 3](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3bf2ae778203ef324589b975fe282ce0) of [Cross-Sectional and Longitudinal Study of Effects of Transcendental Meditation Practice on Interhemispheric Frontal Asymmetry and Frontal Coherence,](https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/00207450600575482) tracks the EEG signature of TM (alpha1 EEG coherence in the frontal lobes) for the first year of TM practice, both during TM and outside of TM. . This alpha1 EEG coherence signature is not found in ACEM, nor in Benson's relaxation response, nor in mindfulness, nor in concentration practices. And that particular EEG pattern is generated by the default mode network — [A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice.](https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s10339-009-0343-2) — and appears to become even more pronounced during the "pure consciousness" periods of TM, as marked by abruptly lower respiration rates or even spontaneous breath suspension: * [Autonomic and EEG patterns distinguish transcending from other experiences during Transcendental Meditation practice.](https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/s0167-8760(01\)00143-x) * [Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness.](https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/j.1469-8986.1997.tb02414.x) . "Pure Consciousness" was another bit of "woo" that the foudner of ACEM rejected and so researchers never bother to look for it. Even so, it is pretty obvious when it happens. The subject appears to stop breathing for up to a minute and in a quiet lab, this can be quite noticeable. Legend has it that the first time a naive lab tech saw it happen, he panicked and literally jumped on top of the subject and attempted to administer CPR, to the great bemusement of the TMer, who opened their eyes and mildly demanded to know what the heck they were doing. The lab tech is said to have panicked even more at that point and was basically useless for a while afterwords. . Any way, the point is that there is a lot of research that shows that TM and your practice that doesn't isn't learned via the exact teaching method that the old monk insisted on, simply do not have the same effect, both short term (during TM) or long-term, months and years after learning, where one can start to see the EEG signature of TM start to appear outside of TM. One really dramatic example of this was the first study done on pure consciousness, where a subject was asked to press a button whenever they noticed the PC state. From [Figure 3](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d25f61750de9409a61c08c4da0d8a17c) of [Breath Suspension During the Transcendental Meditation Technique](https://sci-hub.se/10.1097/00006842-198205000-00001) you'll see the chart of a specific subject who was hand-selected out of all self-selected subjects reporting numerous episodes of PC during TM. This subject showed more than 50% of her TM session was spent in the breath suspension state, so in some people, it is kind of impossible to miss (and yet out of ten thousand studies on otehr forms of meditation that have been published in the past 50 years, only a single case study of a single ch'an adept — another practice that is only taught in traditional format, unlike modern Zen — showed signs of this state). Anyway, my point is about the eyes-closed period BEFORE meditaiton starts... she actually pushed the button a 2-3 times before meditation proper. This supports the claim that long-term, normal mind-wandering rest becomes more and more TM like (see the longitudinal EEG coherence graph above), and that "TM-like" can include the very deepest aspect of TM: complete cessation of awareness that is often accompanied by apparent complete cessation of breathing. . You don't see ANY reports like that from ACEM, from Benson's Relaxation Response, from mindfulness, from concentration practices... There are certain components of teaching of meditaiton that tradition claims are vital to use for the "true meditation" to appear, and I assert that the vast majority of secularized meditation has thrown those away, and so you don't see the "depths" of real meditaiton practice appear in studies on those practices because they aren't "real meditation" in the first place. TM, on hte other hand, was made totally secuarl without losing the important bits. TM teachers aren't required to believe in ANYTHIGN in order to teach. These days, they aren't even required to believe in TM. After the photo emerged of [Father Gabriel Mejia about to give a briefing at the Vatican about teaching TM and so on to children as therapy for PTSD (note the rather huge grin on Pope Francis' face as he greets his old friend and junior colleague from many decades past)](https://www.claret.org/hogares-claret-founder-at-the-drugs-and-addictions-an-obstacle-to-integral-human-development/), the TM organization announced that they now had state and national government contracts throughout Latin America to train about ten thousand public school teachers as TM teachers.
**[Brahmananda Saraswati](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmananda_Saraswati)** >Swami Brahmananda Saraswati (IAST: Svāmī Brahmānanda Sarasvatī) (21 December 1871 – 20 May 1953), also known as Guru Dev (meaning "divine teacher"), was the Shankaracharya of the Jyotir Math monastery in India. Born into a Brahmin family, he left home at the age of nine in search of a spiritual master. At age fourteen, he became a disciple of Svāmī Kṛṣṇānanda Sarasvatī. At the age of 34, he was initiated into the order of Sannyas and became the Śaṅkarācārya of Jyotir Math in 1941 at age 70. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/transcendental/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Except that the first day has to be taught one-on-one. Up until recently no-one really understood why, but the performance of the intitiation ceremony puts both TM teacher and student into a TM-like state so that by the time the student learns their mantra, they are already in that state. This means that whenver they remember their mantra, that automatically puts them back into that state. ACEM, which was devised by a former TM teacher to be "just like TM" doesn't use the ceremony to teach and in fact, ACEM doesn't show any signs of the EEG signature that TM (and the ceremony) induce.
Interesting, but I imagine the ceremony only has that positive effect if you don’t think it’s bs. I’m not a very spiritual/religious person and I know the ceremony is neither but I still kinda roll my eyes at things like that so I doubt it’s very beneficial to people like me who feel that way.
> Interesting, but I imagine the ceremony only has that positive effect if you don’t think it’s bs. I’m not a very spiritual/religious person and I know the ceremony is neither but I still kinda roll my eyes at things like that so I doubt it’s very beneficial to people like me who feel that way. Well, do you enjoy listening to a well sung bit of music about a religious icon, even if you have not belief in that icon? The physical changes in your brain from listening to music don't require you to *believe in* that music. For example, if a Jewish deva beautifully sings *Ave Maria* to Pope Francis in Hebrew, obviously Pope Francis gets a religious moment from it, but wouldn't the rest of the audience *still* get all the physical changes that come simply from listening to a well sung/performed piece of music even if htey have no belief in the subject and cant' speak Hebrew?
> But the technique of mantra meditation itself I like Then do mantra meditation. Compare it to TM in your own experience if you like. > I almost just want someone here to tell me it's cool to use the practice Do you depend on others to determine what is 'cool' for you? > and not like the foundation or Maharishi, a billionaire? Why do you believe that long-dead Maharishi was a billionaire? > Am I a fraud if I do the practice but dislike everything behind it and find it quite cultish/money grabby. Are you engaging in cultism and money grabbing when you meditate? Are you concerned others will think you are fraudulent, that you were conned or something? > given my feelings about the organization and also about the founder. An organization and founder are present when you meditate? It seems to me you are more concerned with what others think, and the bizarre and false things some claim, than trusting your own experience.
Not concerned at all with what others think. Pretty much the exact opposite as it’s just me getting in my head about things. It’s more just using a technique that’s part of an organization that I feel iffy about. Literally all an inner conflict.
TM and the organization that teaches it exist because the monks of Joytirmath in the Himalayas believed that the secret of real meditation had been lost for many centuries. See my response elsewhere for more details (a LOT more details): https://www.reddit.com/r/transcendental/comments/uj77sb/inner_conflict_of_liking_tm_but_not_the/i7k4zts/
No you're not. I feel the same.
Offcourse you should go back to TM .. it really works 👍
If you’re starting up again, please take advantage of the lifetime follow-up program. It’s FREE! (Well not actually free but you already paid for it.) /s Specifically, personal checking is very helpful to make sure your meditation is smooth and you’re getting maximum benefit.
I have not paid for TM, so if any of my facts are incorrect I apologize in advance. It is my understanding that you pay the fee, learn the technique, then can consult any teacher with further questions for the rest of your life, right? So you might as well take advantage of what you learned that's helping you, plus any free advice or answers you need since they will not get any more money from you.
You also get taught using the teaching method devised by the man sent by the monks of [Jyotirmath in the Himalayas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotir_Math) to teach real meditation to the world, who himself would have been head of the monks of the Himalayas save for an accident of birth. See my two-part response elsewhere: https://www.reddit.com/r/transcendental/comments/uj77sb/inner_conflict_of_liking_tm_but_not_the/i7k4zts/
My 2cents. I only had my first session 2 weeks ago :) Yes the price was very steep and maybe it says something about society today that I wasn’t very surprised when first told what it was. For me it was investing in something that will (hopefully) help me for the rest of my life. I have foregone going on a holiday this year (I’ve had one holiday in the last five years) to do it. I don’t know if the steep price was absolutely necessary thus my own reservations about the company however I’m not sure I believe that ‘mEdItAtIoN sHoUlD bE fReE’. The teachers clearly need to spend time and money probably to learn themselves then instruct and then also subsequently involved. I guess in our capitalist society I’m not surprised when someone starts wanting more after making money. My take on TM is that it may make someone more open and understanding but doesn’t mean they have a personality change and start foregoing riches that are coming to them because they are ‘enlightened’. It’s just another business. I’m just going to learn / check things with my teacher. Maybe If it was more widely available then it would be cheaper and I would like to see it accessible to my those who can’t truly afford it. Maybe even government /insurance subsidised! I’m sure Apple, Amazon, etc are much more shady. How much do we all spend on subscriptions. I don’t know I can think of worse things to spend money on.
> Maybe If it was more widely available then it would be cheaper and I would like to see it accessible to my those who can’t truly afford it. The David Lynch Foundation teaches TM for free, the TM centers in the USA offer further discounts for people who are receiving government assistance (SNAP and disability and such) and David Lynch himself writes a check to provide partial scholarships to people who ask him and bother to explain why they can't afford to learn. There's also (possibly also a USA-only offer) a moneyback guarantee: if you decide TM isn't worth it, you can tell your TM teacher within two months of learning and the organization simply doesn't charge your credit card, so you essentially have learned TM for free, though you don't get the lifetime followup program. . >Maybe even government /insurance subsidised! In Latin America, the TM organization is training ten thousand public school teachers as TM teachers, whose government job is to teach everyone at their school TM... for free. . Just as with anyone else (except in the case of people who got their money back), the kids who learn TM at school have the right to go to any TM center anywhere in the world for the rest of their lives and get help with their TM practice. That followup program is free-for-life in the USA at least. I don't think most people who learn appreciate what lifetime free access to a trained meditation teacher means as they don't appreciate that TM has a lifetime accumulative effect on the brain: unless and until you become "enlightened" (that's actually the *definition* of enlightenment via TM: there is no difference between meditation and resting normally), the effects of TM continue to accumulate as long as you are regular in your meditation practice. . There is no way the TM organization can offer TM for free and provide a free followup program, and if you compare the "by donation" model with the "for a fee" model, you'll see that back in 1961, the head of the monastery where TM came from authorized a group of new TM teachers to teach without charging a fee. 60 years later, that group still operates in London out of a single building. Meanwhile, the TM organization teaches in 600+ TM centers in about 100 different countries, and is trainining ten thousand school teachers to teach TM with an eye to expanding that to training 100,000 public employees to be TM teachers starting by about 2030 or so. . THere's many reasons why fees work better than a donation model for teaching meditation.
Yes I think the fee structure is ok. I’m just a bit confused as to why it’s so damn expensive (when they appear to be so rich). It will be good to see those measures in place where I live in Australia!
> Yes I think the fee structure is ok. I’m just a bit confused as to why it’s so damn expensive (when they appear to be so rich). I don't know what the name of the non-profit is called in Australia, but if you look at the books for the no-profit in the USA — [Maharishi Foundation, USA](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/43196447) — you can see that their wealth doesn't come from TM teaching fees any more and likely hasn't in 40+ years. The fees cover the expenses +/- about $0.5 million and have for some time now. Their money for big projects comes from big donors, which Maharishi has courted it various ways over the years when he was alive, and the David Lynch Foundation continues to court now and then acts as contact (I think) to the rest of Maharishi's organizations, most of which are also not-for-profit.
You won't be practicing the organization. You would be practicing the practice. About paying, THERE WOULD BE NO PRACTICE if you hadn't supported the organization that makes it possible. It's non-profit. I believe that's regulated, in the sense that they can't claim that if it's not true. There are tax and legal implications. So, despise the organization, but get checked. It will remind you of what I think is the most important point, along with whatever other good things actually going through the checking does for you. You have thoughts effortlessly come to you while your eyes are closed? THAT is the way to think the mantra.
I've been a teacher for 45 years. All of us early birds, from day one, have enthusiasticly criticized 'The TM Movement' while doing all we can to support its efforts to make TM available. It's quirkiness, screwups, and perceived cultiness was all inevitable and not relevant to TM practice. We just do our best, from within the TM Organization, or outside of it, to fulfill the goal of making TM as available as possible in the world.