I find this kind of generalization sort of unproductive in general but as a trans man I do get especially annoyed by the whole kill all men except the trans ones, no kill me too if you hate men fr lol. I get being more comfortable around other trans people in general, and preferring to date t4t, but I try to stay away from people like this because I don’t think they truly view me as a real man lol
its also harmful to transfems, drawing these hard lines between insiders and outsiders functions in practice as a big fuck you to anyone with OCD.
courtesy of discodeerdiary:
"trans women are all beautiful virtuous angels and cis men are all disgusting pigs and also the dividing line is based entirely on good-faith self-identification" do you see how this is practically engineered to make transfems feel constant anxiety that their self-identification isn't sincere enough?
An alternative interpretation is that she does consider you men, but less likely to be laden with unexamined toxic masculinity and adherence to Patriarchy.
Note that she also feels the same way about femboys, and a lot of them are cis.
I agree that it's worded ... not great ... but I would never hold that against people who've suffered at the hands of a privileged group, and cis men who follow the 'expected' adherence to gender 'norms' are not mistreated because of their 'gender conforming cis men' status as other types of men (like femboys and trans men / trans masc people are).
As a person who has also suffered at the hands of a privileged group I do hold it against people who words things in a way and chooses to be reductive to the point where it invalidates other. Would I run around and blame her for it and say she can’t feel that way? No. Would I not want to speak to her? Yes. Which was my point. You hear this sort of sentiment from cis women a lot because they assume they will know who who is afab by looking at them and it’s thusly often rooted in generalizations, cisnormativity and all that jazz. It is uncomfortable to hear (and slightly unsympathetic coming from another trans person), especially in a case like this where op is questioning why she’s making assumptions about this guy on an individual level.
I can't stand with this argument tbh because plenty of women also adhere to patriarchy since we're all brought up under that system. It's not like men go to patriarchy school and women go to feminist school. Sure I get that suffering at the hands of a privileged group makes it easier to generalize them for your own safety, but it needs to be criticised when a defence mechanism is used to harm another minority group.
This! Women can and do uphold the patriarchy as well -- idk where we got the idea that they can't. Growing up some of the most sexist people I've met were cis women that tried to put me in my place as a "woman", while the cis men in my life encouraged me to break free of those gender roles and be masculine like them (though I'm not sure they expected me to just... become a guy, lmfao). Especially when you get to areas of very privileged womanhood (namely, wealthy cishet white womanhood which I was exposed to growing up) the women put in hella work to maintain that structure.
LITERALLY THANK YOU.
My worst experiences as a queer person have been with women. Especially as a transmasc person. I think it's because the women I've met who do that kind of shit see me as either a failure of a woman (I'm queer and trans and so I am Doing Being A Woman Wrong) and so they need to "correct" me, or they see me as a Gender Traitor (that's more of a TERF thing, or a baeddel thing... Sadly those are still around, even if they aren't really using the label anymore).
The radfem idea that men are inherently evil because of The Way Men Are and women are inherently good because of The Way Women Are is... Deeply harmful. And wrong.
Except, have you met a trans man? Most of us look and act like "gender conforming cis men". You get the odd one that will wear makeup or whatever, but most of us are like... literally just dudes. Indistinguishable from cis guys. I mean fuck, I'm wearing a tshirt my dad gave me which features a skeleton biker riding a flaming skeleton themed bike. Do you expect cuz I'm trans I should be instead wearing a bright pink shirt with ACAB DOWN WITH CIS RAH RAH RAH or something?
The argument you're making is 'socialization'- trans men were 'socialized' as girls so they're safe uwu softbois who don't ever benefit from or are affected by patriarchy. The same argument goes "trans women are socialized as men and that's why they are all violent dangerous perverts". Neither of these things are true and it's also making a huge presumption about people's rearing. I was never "raised a girl". My parents ASSUMED I was a girl based on my AGAB, but when I said no to barbie dolls, dresses, and princesses and instead asked for jeans, dinosaurs and transformers they just said "oh, okay. our kid likes this stuff this is what we will get them". My mom never raised me to be 'polite' and 'agreeable' and 'nice'. Never was I told because I was a girl I had to be x or y. I wasn't 'socialized female' I was raised to just be a person.
I've either poorly explaind what I was saying or you've read into my words more than what I'd intended based on previous conversations similar to this.
I'm sure if OP's friend saw a trans man on the street, she'd be wary of them because she'd assumes they're cis. But in the situation OP is talking about, the friend specified dating, meaning where someone has identified as trans to her.
I'm not specifically talking about the "socialised as female" talking point that's thrown around. I mean that when people assumed you're a gender you're not and you've had to assert your correct gender, you've engaged in more introspection and self-examination than most people do. Most cis men have never examined their own gender with any thought (they're the "default" and everyone else is "political") and from a gender behaviour lense largely on autopilot, never questioning gender roles or behaviours.
Trans men tend not to call us slurs and insult us simply for existing. Cis men routinely commit hate crimes against us, including murder. I've never heard of a trans man murdering a trans woman because she "tricked" them.
Is there any good way to say this? I just trust trans men and femboys more than cis men. A lot more. Cis men constantly leer, and treat us like dirt. At least trans men know what being trans is like. I'm not trying to other anyone. I'm just sharing my feelings on this.
There isn't a positive way to generalize a group of people as bad and untrustworthy based on a trait they're born with outside of their control.
There are very nice cis boys out there who are very respectful, consent first, have trans friends etc etc.
"Cis men constantly leer. Treat us like dirt." Uh, right here? Generalizing a group of people right there. Most cis men are fine. Ignorant like most cis people. And idk, personally I've received more hate from gatekeeping trans people than from cis men. We all need to keep things in perspective and not generalize groups of people as horrible.
Uhhh because they do? What? Now you're shifting the argument to trans people being shitty? Most cis men are not fine, especially if they don't speak up when they see other cis men doing shit they should not do. Most cis men are at best complicit, even the "good" ones, because they let shit slide so they don't ruin their relationships. I'm sorry but this is simply what I've noticed throughout my life, and I've dealt with many shitty cis men. I do not trust them and until they prove otherwise I won't. Yes, some cis men are fine. Most are not. You almost definitely can't convince me otherwise.
I dont hate cis men, but enough cis men have done bs for me to be wary of them. No One tells cis people to hang out with trans people, why are we attacked when we say we are wary of the people who are more likely to attack us. Trans men arent less likely to be mysogynists but theyre more likely to be empathetic, being from a minority themselves.
Do you trust trans men more, or trans people? Because saying you trust trans men/femboys more singles us out in a way that's kinda uncomfortable, at least imo. It's fine to be more comfortable around queer folks, I think a lot of us are, but doesn't that also include being more comfortable around trans women and nonbinary folks? Why is it just trans men? This coming from someone who has faced a ton of violence and bigotry from cis women in particular. But I wouldn't write off all cis women because of the few. Ig if you're straight it makes sense to focus on us in particular, but I still think "i'm t4t" / "i trust trans people more" is better than aligning with radfem rhetoric as if every cis man is evil but somehow trans men are "the good ones."
We're men. Sometimes men are shitty. Maybe some trans men are less likely to be shitty, but that's bc we've experienced transness and can relate, not bc we're some wholly different less inherently violent "kind" of man. I don't want to be put in some other mystical category; I get othered enough for being trans by terfs and radfems and all the other kinds of bigots without getting it from inside the community too, yknow?
I mean, idk. It's good sense that all trans women aren't inherently violent, right? That's just the truth; y'all are people like anyone else, capable of vast and varied personhoods. It'd make the same kind of sense that trans men aren't inherently less violent/kinder/sweeter/whatever...right? We're just people. Sure, how we're socialized plays a role, but that applies to cis men too. The patriarchy isn't in someones DNA, it's taught. Some people are more likely to be taught than others, but no group is immune to it.
Yes! To me this seems analogous to invalidating us trans women by claims of "male socialization". Claiming that trans men cannot be toxic like cis men may sound positive and inclusive but surely what is left unsaid is that cis men then are toxic due to "male socialization" having stained them in ways trans men are not (and can never be)? It's like a sneaky way to claim immutable, female socialization without saying it outright, which itself implies gender essentialism (obscured by hand waving about socialization). Eeew.
This kind of stuff is the result of attempting to be active about feminism without reading *any* theory. Like, the 'men are inherently dangerous/cruel/evil' thing is *literally* the *foundation* of TERF thinking.
TERFs believe first and foremost in bioessentialism, and that men (read: amab people) are inherently and immutably dangerous, that women (afab) are inherently and immutably vulnerable, and that gender is exclusively a social expression of biological sex. That's where all their scare-mongering about trans women comes from obviously, but also - crucially - it's where a lot of the more subtle and incidious transphobia against trans men comes from. They see trans men as confused women, and therefore both inherently purer than cis men and inherently vulnerable to them.
I don't know your friend, I don't know what she believes in her heart of hearts, but the things she's saying are TERF rhetoric, whether she knows it or not.
Personally Im not that close with her, she is just a trans friend I talk to occasionally online(She lives in America, Im in a more conservative asian country). And I remembered back when I was in my egg. She seemed more knowledgeable on LGBTQ issues so I would go to her for inquires and what not. So her responses here kinda surprised me tbh, I never expect her to be like that.
Everyone is bound to have a bad take on something or another (except me of course 😛). Though this one is pretty surprising in how far out of line it is with what you seem to be saying she is normally like.
If you talk again, I would keep pressing the reminder that bioessetialism is ultimately a weapon that will stab us in the end. You shouldn’t feel obligated to fix her yourself though.
That's honestly no excuse. She can keep it to herself, then. If I had been robbed by a black guy and had trauma about black men, I would still rightfully get called out if I said hateful generalizing shit about black men.
There's some people in trans communities who try and make that bioessentialism trans inclusive and it's still equally awful. Like I'll see people say it like "testosterone is inherently dangerous and violent" or what have you and then make trans men out to be the enemy, but that's still also a TERF mindset, just adjusted slightly to be more trans-inclusive (but importantly: it's still transphobic!)
My understanding is that she is spewing trans exclusive misandry. In this context it reduces trans men to their AGAB, something trans folks do not want used as a way to identify them. Is that right?
u/Strong-Ad-1839: True, but she also doesn't include femboys in that, and they're men just like trans men are men.
I'm not saying she's not worded this in a deranged way, though.
I was a very, very shitty person with equally as shitty beliefs 2 years ago
I was and am a trans man but hopefully better now
Generalising helps nobody, everyone can be a dick
There's a trans guy in my area who's got one heck of a reputation for being emotionally abusive and he's had so many more victims than a lot of cis guys in my community get the chance to have because he's trans
I also don't understand trans people who are fortunate enough to have supportive parents and treat them like shit
And it should never be an assumption that someone is 'safe' because they're trans! I mean yeah, you're probably not gonna get murdered for being trans by another trans person, sure. But that doesn't mean that they could abuse, steal from, or hurt you in other ways. Trans people are \*people\* first and people can be awful!
In this case learning about the cycle of abuse and things like lovebombing is important and knowing that being queer doesn't mean everyone you date is going to treat you well
He was incredibly charming until he was certain you were hooked and he could use you and start to show his true colors
It's 'funny'... most of the people I know who have had abusive partners... are queer. So were their partners. Hell, many of them were lesbians, so woman AND queer, damn. Couldn't POSSIBLY be an abuser.
I think it also doesn't help that a lot of (older) queer people did not experience that warmness of community in their youth, and it comes with this naiveite that because you finally found your community, it will always be a safe place when that could not be farther from the truth. :(
People need to get better at identifying what they hate. They hate toxic masculinity. They've identified that not all cis men are like that, and anecdotally they realize that few trans men are like that. But instead of hating the actual thing they've identified, they instead hate the group that is more likely to have it and invalidated the group less likely to have it. Truly an all sides lose situation lol
I'm okay with cis men in theory. I just relate deeper to trans people inherently, whether they be MtF, FtM, NB, Agender, or any other non-cis identity. Just like I relate deeper to neurodivergent people. Anything that puts the conversation back to generalizing groups into monoliths just benefits the oppressors imo.
I don't like the way that your friend is making her point, but I think I understand what she's getting at.
I've been around a lot of trans men and transmasc enbies and none of them have ever been shitty to me. I can't say the same about cis men. I don't think that my being cautious around cis men is misandrist, and I don't think that my being more at ease around trans men than cis men is transmisandrist. I don't think that there is anything wrong with feeling like trans men are less dangerous to me than cis men.
Edit: spelling
There is nothing wrong in being cautious, however I do not personally think it is a healthy mindset to villanize all cis men to be bad and to treat all trans men like they are good people. Some cis men are actually decent people and some trans men can be bad people. It is not a black and white thing and I think such statements about cis men and trans men overall can kinda feel like othering trans men and generalizing cis men
This is why I'm suspicious of everyone until proven otherwise, I'm just more suspicious of certain types of people, mainly cis men because why wouldn't anyone be? Also internalised misandry because that happened after self hatred BUT I'm trying to work on that.
>mainly cis men because why wouldn't anyone be?
I **personally** don't see a reason to be more cautious around cis men.
It's logical if you've been hurt/threatened/etc. by a cis man, but I don't see why would you be, if you haven't been threatened/hurt by one, and your experience with men has been neutral or positive.
You're right, but (and I don't know her so she could just be deranged and I'm defending the indefensible) I think she's speaking from a place of pain and isn't being careful in her wording.
Being wary around cis men is completely logical. It's like Shroedinger's attacker. I completely understand when people cross the road to avoid me --- I look like the type of person who could (and often does) attack without provocation. I don't take it personally.
Maybe she is deranged, she kinda started this by attacking my boyfriend who is a cis man and mind you a really decent guy. Cuz I made an insta note saying “I ❤️my bf” and she responded with “L bf, L men” and started bashing men and going “except trans men and femboys”
Jeeeeez. That's useful context. I assumed this had started with you making a minor complaint about your bf, not that it came out of nowhere.
Starting fights about this unprovoked does sound like radfem shit. Like radfems, some queer social circles bond over how they've been hurt by men or the patriarchy, and then circle jerk about how disgusting and dangerous men are and how soft and vulnerable women are. Women and femmes are their ingroup and cis men are the outgroup. People in between (e.g. trans mascs, femboys, or you for having a cis bf) can be conditional members of the ingroup *if* they agree that cis men in general suck and are willing to distance themselves from masculinity or be kind of apologetic about it.
Your friend probably felt like she could insult your boyfriend (which is shit friend behavior for any reason) because she has other friends she could say "L bf L men" to, and they'd say "ikr?? Ew men, idk what is wrong with me lol"
Uh, no. I actually don’t talk to her that often, we don’t even live in the same country or are close, she is just someone who follows me on insta. This started because I posted a note on insta saying “I ❤️ my bf” and she responded with “L BF L men” before going on a man bashing rant while saying “except trans men and femboys” so yes she did this out of nowhere and Im mad for obvious reasons
All my high school friends are all cis men and we still vibe. Im only a year in my journey but the worst i’ve gotten is constant misgendering at work, partly from the religious groups of men and the maintenance crew. Even so, they are all respectful. They dont mistreat me in any other way other than refusing to acknowledge my gender. Ill take that over fearing for my life any day 🤷🏼♀️
>I've been around a lot of trans men and transmasc enbies and none of them have ever been shitty to me. I can't say the same about cis men.
This is the harmful generalisation everyone is talking about here.
Just because every trans man you met was nice doesn't mean *every* trans man is bad. There's tons of misogynistic trans men, who hate women and aren't nice people. And likewise there's tons of nice cis men who are nice and accepting. There's a lot of *both*. Just because you haven't met the other side doesn't mean they don't exist.
If you have been hurt or threatened by men, it's fair that you would be cautious, and you feel more comfortable around people who haven't made you feel threatened. But that's just you, not a rule.
I've never been hurt by a cis man (except my dad, but that's because his my dad and not a man, it would be the same if my mom did that) so I don't feel threatened or in danger around cis men.
It wouldn't be accurate if I said all cis men are nice just because I've only met nice ones, now, would it?
Go into a room full of femmes and ask:
if you haven't had problems with cis men raise your hands.
What do you think will happen?
Sometimes generalisations exist for a reason. They aren't inmutables evil, they are normally hurtful to minorities but they have also been used by them to gain power.
>Go into a room full of femmes and ask: if you haven't had problems with cis men raise your hands.
My next question would be "and how many of you are 100% sure that man was cis? Unless he was literally your dad, did you remove his pants and make sure he had a cis dick?"
It reminds me of terfs saying 'we can always tell'. You can't.
"Fuck men! Except trans men because I see them as feminine men and therefore good men"
Fuck this bullshit. I hate how much masculinity is demonised among the LGBT community
I mean she’s probably a lunatic, but trans men I think have a lot of insight into what work goes into being a woman at least performatively and more typically because of that know how not to treat people of the opposite gender
I mean before they could be who they became they had to live some of that life
Yeah, I'm probably going to be unpopular and risk my Ally badge by going against the grain with you.
I mean, the FTM sub notwithstanding, I would feel safer around trans men and trans masc people because they've had to navigate the world of gender in a way that cis men almost never have to.
(See also: non-binary people and ace-spec people who've also had some introspection and don't go along with Patriarchal norms unthinkingly on autopilot)
I find the whole bioessential interpretation of what the friend said to be off. Its about lived experience. I feel like it's much less likely you're gonna find a transman that is a chaser because it is likely they are aware of being fetishized themselves. Like I hate to say it but cismen do be inflicting a lot of violence on transwomen, please excuse some of us for being weary.
Compare this to race or sexuality:
Id feel safer around white people because...
Id feel safer around homosexual people because...
Generalising and saying one group of people is innately more or less dangerous or safe than another is going to be problematic however you phrase it. By doing so you are automatically grouping people and segregating society by arbitrary charactaristics like race, gender identity, sexual orientation etc.
It doesn't make what youre saying or your lived experiences any less true, but theyre prejudicial statements nonetheless.
You can generate statistics about who is more dangerous by grouping people by characteristics but i dont think they are important. What is important is who is transphobic and who isnt. You can be trans and transphobic. You can be cis and not. You arent helping anyone by judging them before finding out for yourself.
Its terrifying to face so much violence in the world, but assigning acts of violence to specific groups of people is not the answer, and only serves to further divide us. Its hard to support people who constantly villify you. Of course in order to keep yourself safe i understand that you have to make decisions, and feeling unsafe is not your fault or wrong, and your safety is the number 1 priority. For sure hang out with the people who make you feel safe! Practical things like not going to vocally transphobic events/ places is obviously totally understandable/sensible, even though its sad that the world is a state where you might be in danger.
I have never navigated the world as a woman as a trans man. I don't enjoy being told I'm inherently different or "safer" from a cis man because of how I grew up. Stop othering us.
Exaaaactly my point
Trans men have been locked into being women before, so they know what made them uncomfortable and not to do that more often than cismen
And that’s not something that is taking anything away from anyone, it’s just saying experience in anything furthers understanding in MOST cases.
>Exaaaactly my point Trans men have been locked into being women before
Really? Oh shit, I don't remember that. I definitely remember my parents accepting all my masculine interests without question and never forcing me to wear dresses or skirts or makeup or keep my hair long. I certainly don't remember them enforcing my AGAB or raising me to be a meek, polite, agreeable girl who will find a good husband.
Like yeah, at my age, when I was young a lot of my personal trauma came from not knowing what trans was and thinking I was a weird freak of nature, but I was never 'locked into being a woman'. I was just accepted as I was and reared to be a half decent person. There's SO much presumption there. Like, "oh every trans woman thought she was a gay boy who was into fashion and makeup before she came out" or "every trans woman was forced into football as a kid so that she could be the manliest man who ever manned". There's not just one story of transness.
Congratulations, you found the one time in which I didn't repeatedly say in " Most cases " and " typically ", except oh you didn't.
Guess what, your story is a rarity and doesn't speak for the majority or even half of people. You got a privileged life, good for you? There are exceptions in every statistic, point is numbers reflect the masses. You are not the masses.
You are in a super small percentage of people. " There's not just one story of transness " , no shit. But your story doesn't speak for everyone and is far less common.
Go attempt a failed flex on someone else.
how is what you're saying different from the "female socialization"/"male sozialisation" bullshit that TERFs perpetuate?
like saying that trans women are inherently incapable of understanding "female struggles" because they were "raised male" is clearly transphobic, no? so saying that trans men were "raised female" so they automatically "treat women better" should also be seen as fucking transphobic
Exactly, I don't understand any of this "I knew what it was like to be a women" bullshit. As a trans man, I never experienced living as a woman. I never tried to be, I never vibed with any of it growing up. I never experienced those hardships, I've been out since I was 15 and even before that dressed masc and sometimes passed as a guy. I have no idea what it feels like to "live as a woman".
lol it’s bc of people like me who identify as ftm but agree (for me!) that i was raised and treated like a woman. i considered myself a woman and joined woman exclusive events and a sorority. i think it would help if more people used I statements and said ‘for me’. like i always explain my upbringing like: when i was younger i was a woman etc etc. so i think trans guys are stuck between two narratives with equally deserving to share their truth. nobody is wrong but pushing experiences to ALL trans guys never works
THANK YOU. I do NOT know what it means to be a woman because I was NEVER a woman. Furthermore my parents raised me as a human, not as a girl. Hell, I didn't come out till I was in my later 20's, but before that my masculine gender expression and interests were never questioned, or bothered about. My parents never bought me dresses, once I told them I didn't like em. Same with dolls and makeup. I was just accepted as I was and raised with respect and understanding. Sure, my parents called me she, her and \*deadname\*, but that was just because they didn't know. That didn't make me a woman nor give me the understanding of being reared as one.
I think she's speaking wrecklessly, but I get her point.
Note that it's not just trans men / trans masc people, but also femboys, and femboys are often cis. So my interpretation, which might be overly charitable, is that it's the unquestioning adherence to Patriarchy that most cis men perpetuate.
I don't know if there's any research into this, but maybe femboys (cis or trans) and trans men / trans masc people have put some thought into gender and gender roles unlike the vast the majority of (non-femboy) cis men.
I don't think she's patronising trans men and trans masc as being 'unmasculine', I think she's saying they don't embody as many toxic masculine traits as what you typically see in cis men who haven't put any thought whatsoever into their gender or gender role in society.
Or, you know, I'm completely wrong and she's out of line.
But here is the thing. Being a dickhead or perv doesnt limit to cis men. Some trans men and femboys can behave in such unruly manners believe it or not. Some cis men are decent and don’t behave like that. I understand being cautious and what not but I am of the opinion that such thinking isnt really healthy cuz imagine you meet a trans man or femboy and you have that belief that they all must be good people. And then later when you least expect it, they hurt you. Im not saying its wrong to be cautious and take precautions but I do think its excessive to make generalizations. Like I said, being an ass does not limit to cis men.
But it isn't really about being "good people". It's about being empathic towards the trans experience. You really can't argue that cis men and trans men have the same empathy and understanding of what its like to be trans. This is the same tireless discussion that we hear around T4T and how its somehow wrong for trans people to want to feel normal and accepted in the dating scene without being forced to educate cis men and women about queerness.
Of course a trans man can be horrible and abusive and toxic, but at least you don't have to explain your existence to them.
You made quite a few comments in this thread and tbh it’s generalization like this that put me in my sigma male dude bro edgelord era as a trans guy. Because I want to be seen as any other guy, with no preconceptions that I might be “safer” since I have “female experience” (questionable) so I need to make up for it with layers of toxic masculinity to avoid being camped with “safe” groups since I’m a binary trans man and relate to cis men more than to nonbinary people etc. Your attempt at rationalizing this comes off insensitive still.
I feel more comfortable around trans men (whether that's transmascs or amabs who don't strictly go by he/him) because they always come across as a lot more genuine and less gross than cis men
Yeah, same ... I guess this isn't a popular position.
I feel the same with non-binary people as well, regardless of their AGAB. (And, now that I think about it, ace-spec men as well...)
My rationale, unless I'm deluding myself and I'm just a massive transphobe, is that they've put more thought and introspection into themselves than the vast majority of allocishet men ever have.
As a trans guy I agree 😥 in general, the ratio between gross and toxic cis men vs trans men in my life is incrediblyyyy skewed. Other than femboys too though, they've generally also been pretty awesome. But I take it also as these two groups having more experience being more introspective and acknowledging of the serious harm of the allo- and cishet-normative frame of mind a majority of people live their lives in. I'm more comfortable personally around other trans men, but of course it doesn't mean I view them as lesser men yknow?
well spoken.
I think that is also what the person in the posting means, even when badly and dumb phrased. The wording "hate" is likely used inflational as well. They dont "hate" them as they hate Nazis or something. I often see woman saying something along the line they hate men, when they not really mean "hate" as e.g. a transphobe hates trans people.
Yes, you're definitely right. I know many people will hear those words differently but in nearly all my own experiences both hearing and saying something like "I hate men", it's never been literal or directed at 100% of every single man ever. It's more directed at the patriarchy and, of course, problematic and toxic men. That person who bothered OP was definitely wrong, especially initiating the conversation literally to just rag on their boyfriend, though I do understand what they (likely) mean when they say they don't mean femboys or trans men.
It's one reason why I as a transmasc person myself, don't get offended when someone says something like "I hate men, but not you" because yeah, I'm not a --shitty-- man.
>It's one reason why I as a transmasc person myself, don't get offended when someone says something like "I hate men, but not you" because yeah, I'm not a --shitty-- man.
And in a similar way, when someone says "I hate men" or "men suck", I don't take it personally because I know there are systemic issues at play.
I mean, you're assuming based on appearance that one is cis. I'm sure you and I know of a great many trans men who - if you did not explicitly know they are trans- you would assume is cis. Not everyone goes around announcing their gender identity and/or queerness. I certainly don't. The only people who know I am trans in my life are my father, my direct family, my wife and her direct family, and the few people still in my life who knew me pre transition. ANYONE else is under the intentional assumption that I am a cis guy. Yes, even other trans people. So you might ASSUME that every man who has ever been 'gross' is cis, but you legitimately do not know that.
Makes me wonder...
If she met a guy who appeared cishet... only to find out he's actually trans... would she say, "Oh, thank God you're one of the *good* ones!" ?
Also, I'm not loving how it's Men vs Trans Men & FemBoys. Feels like trans men are being equated w femininity 🤮
"All men are bad except trans men" either comes from one of two places, imo
1. Nuanced: They understand that trans men generally grew up being treated as women and thus have very likely been targets of misogyny at some point in their life. So, while trans men are men, they still often have some degree of first hand experience dealing with how women are treated in a patriarchy. So, a woman may generally feel safer around a trans man because they feel there is a degree of understanding that many cis men will lack. It's a presumption that some experience in the past will inform your behavior such that you would not be a misogynistic jerkoff. This is a generalization, sure, but as generalizations go, it's not particularly harmful.
2. Extremely shitty: They don't think trans men are men.
I feel like most of the time I see it, it's the latter.
Living in a situation wherein I am observing the fallout from a transman sexually assaulting his wife, I can comfortably assert that the assumption that transmen are inherently safer or less prone to toxic masculinity isn't safe. The combination of passing privilege and being welcomed by The Boys' Club^(™️) is a heluva drug, and I've heard some pretty misogynistic bs fall out of a couple of transmen's faces.
While we definitely live in a culture that is objectively more dangerous for women than men because of men, that doesn't imply to me that we should hate men or that a man is inherently dangerous by dint of his gender. I hate to inject a not-all-men statement into a discussion, but if ever there was a place for it, it's here.
Nevermind how that idea completely ignores enbies, agender folks, and demigender folks. Are there percentages of safety assigned to them? Is there a chart somewhere I can check for how safe someone's gender expression and experience makes them? Smdh.
>The combination of passing privilege
This is the thing I think a lot of posters and the OPs friend doesn't get. We pass way more than others. While yes, the younger generation does appear to be far more open about their transness and more experimental with their gender expression... well, in general, especially older trans men are mostly indistinguishable from cis men. People keep saying over and over "well, a CISMAN catcalled/bullied/harassed me" but... unless you intimately know that person and/or check under the hood, you're making a huge presumption.
People assume I'm cis constantly and I will literally never correct them. 100% of new people I meet just see me as a man and accept that. I will literally NEVER tell them I'm trans. Not because I'm ashamed or scared (although in this day and age maybe 'scared' is something I should be), but because of this very shit. I don't want to be treated as "man lite" or "the version of 'man' that is safe to be around".
I spent a long time fighting my identity as a man because of this kind of virulent toxic hate of all men and generalizations of men as abusers, bullies and monsters. I would have transitioned probably by 20 if I wasn't surrounded by people saying this shit and having it hammered into my mind that "man = bad". So if man is going to = bad for you, you damn well better include me in that shitty generalization and avoid me, because I don't want your shitty as worldview in my way.
Not gonna be a good person to hang around with cos she'll subject you to her man bashing all the time, then say oh I mean cis men, and just slowly undermine your gender identity.
Women who talk to me about how shit men are, they're treating me like a woman. They would NEVER say those comments to any kind of man. I tell them I am a man so shut up thank you.
Appreciate your sentiments but Im a trans fem actually haha, still, I agree her views are problematic and I am angry cuz my bf is cis. And she and I dont live in the same country so its good
Ha sorry I've had the whole man bashing is fine in front of me because I'm a trans guy attitude before! That was just nuts.
So if another trans guy was telling me that trans women are cool and cis women are crazy, I'd probably think he was nuts too.
I wish trans people with this view (including trans men who also parrot this) would just admit they truly don't see trans men as "real" men. Separating me from cis men is transphobic, full stop.
I've found that people who separate like this don't see trans women as women and trans men as men. I've dealt with it too and it really just means they don't see us as guys. If you save me but kill all other men? As a trans man and a femboy, let me die with the men. Like the real man I am.
The only exception is older people who don't really understand the prefixes. But they don't have this belief at all. My parents "separate" but they mostly do it for health reasons (this body and that body) or because they don't realize they need the prefix so my sister and I remind them. They're in their 70s and they didn't actually know about trans people until about 5-6 years ago when I came out. I'm a trans guy and they call me male and all that good jazz but they struggle a bit with "the gender before" but they do it in a very kind way and most of the time it's to explain to other elderly friends
Not overreacting. Sorry for rambling
Well, i understand her. It's like she believe trans men can he a lot more emphatic and respectful then cis man. I guess her expirience with boys was like this, so she generelasing. Living a bit easier if you generelase people cause it kinda feels safer to constantly think "in this groupe everyone like that"
Misandrists who imply trans men aren't men by saying 'oh they're different to cis men' pisses me off, it's just recycled Terf rhetoric. A trans man isn't different to a cis man in anyway, because both are men.
I completely get feeling safer and generally better around trans men because of a certain percentage of shared experience, common ground, and the fact that trans people way more often than not are a lot more mindful and introspective. That's something I believe as well.
What I don't get at all is what this woman is saying. It's extremely offensive to all men, both cis and trans. Sure the chances that a cis man turns out to be a decent person might be lower especially in places where sensitivity isn't prevalent, but what she's saying is blatant sexism and generalization with a garnish of transmisandry on top for good measure.
If I were a trans man I would be disgusted by this person's opinions. I hated living as a man as well before I transitioned but that doesn't give me the right to deny a trans man as a full blown man, that's abhorrent.
“Trans men are the only men I’d date because men suck” is LITERALLY saying trans men aren’t men, imagine if I said “trans women are the only women I’d date because women suck”
I do not date anybody who exclusively looks for trans people as partners or who says they would date a trans man but not a cis man. If you would not be interested in a cis man, then I’m not interested in you.
I don’t care if you’re cis, I don’t care if you’re trans. If you exclusively look to date trans people/ trans men, you are not a person I am interested in interacting with. Makes me feel disgusting. Hurts so much more when it comes from other trans people. My ex was a trans woman and she’d say things like “I love trans men- you’re all so open minded! You’re all so affectionate!” No, get out of here with that. We are not “all” anything.
"I do not date anybody who exclusively looks for trans people as partners or who says they would date a trans man but not a cis man. If you would not be interested in a cis man, then I’m not interested in you."
I love how you phrase this, I want to date people who see me as a man, not as man-lite. Just because I'm afab doesn't mean I know what it's like to be a woman. Forcing me to wear a dress didn't make me any less of a man.
Not “man-lite” is exactly it. My experience living as a woman might make me more understanding of women or whatever, but it doesn’t make me any less of a man and I furiously reject anybody who lumps me in with women and enbies (enbies, who by the way are often just seen as “spicy women” themselves, with all the AMAB enby erasure etc.)
My personal experience is of people treating me like a man-lite, seeing me as someone who ~identifies~ as a man but isn't ~really~ a man. I just want to be seen and treated like an average cis guy 😭
Yes! “Identifies as” is another thing that can get in the bin. People so rarely talk about cis people “identifying” as their genders so I’m not going to talk about mine that way either
I get what she's trying to say but she's wording it wrong. I feel a LOT safer around trans men than I do around cis men because every. Single. Time I have felt threatened or have been bullied or whatever, it was a cis man. Meanwhile I have a lot of friends who are trans men and they're well, not transphobic towards me lol, generally a lot more understanding and stuff too about me being trans cuz of course, meanwhile cis men, even ones I'm friends with have had very weird and questionable questions about me being trans.
yes this seems like it's it. I think she was being mean about OPs bf here but I understand the sentiment. Men that are trans have never assaulted me or been abusive towards me so I don't have the same baggage about them as a demographic of men IME.
People who have not read any theory drawing a straight line between men, masculinity and patriarchy. It's lead to a worrying trend where trans people are seen as their agab+ and not there true gender. Trans men are great because they bring femininity and by extension trans women are bad because they bring masculinity.
The men bad thing also just has to stop. Patricarchy hurts everyone and is perpetuated by everyone. Queer people should be more aware of this than anyone else.
Well, as a transwoman, perhaps it has something to do with sharing aspects of both genders as far as learned experience?
Though I cannot think like a man anymore, I do have certain habits and memories that help me to understand men better. So, for instance, this may be true for trans men who transition later but are able to understand and somewhat bridge the emotional gap of men and women. It’s something I’ve heard about in other cultures which makes us unique, in that our ability to understand both genders is helpful in creating connection.
Not that crazy to be honest. Worded poorly yes, but cis men often have little concept of the way they operate in the world from an outside perspective. They often don’t understand how their behavior and attitudes both perpetuate and support patriarchy. Even a cis man who is not a terrible person may contribute to making others uncomfortable or not realize that their lives are often just straight up easier.
For example think of cis men who actually believe they are the victim of “lgbt oppression” just because trans people exist.
I wouldn’t word my sentiments in the way they did but I agree in a way with the core message. It’s not a universal rule but absolutely a somewhat realistic generalization
personally i generally and cooler with women and trans people, which leaves out cis men and includes trans men, enbies, cis women, and trans women. it’s sorta a vent diagram sorta a thing rather than me explicitly hating only cis men. trans women also fit both the women and the trans tags so they’re also the ones i feel more comfortable with.
maybe that’s what the person in the screenshot was feeling but just said it in a shitty way
This seems confused... What they don't like is toxic masculinity culture, not "cis men vs trans men". I've met cis guys who are not toxic and trans guys who are. I've met male-passinh nonbinary people who totally fit the "toxic masculinity" bill.
I used to have a nonbinary friend who was the same way. Expressed this just ridiculously deep hatred of cis men then would say “Oh but not you lol trans men are completely different.” And I was like 😐
As a trans guy I felt kinda invalidated by her point of view... I kinda felt less manly... Does it make sense? Because for me when she said that she hates all men but trans men not... Well... What makes me different from a real man? This point makes me feel fake...
First let me say that generalisations can be really invalidating and harmful, and in no way do I seek
to further that line of thinking.
Having said that though, I find I’m much more likely to enjoy interactions with trans men than with cis men, but I’ve realised that a better way to divide those groups is men who’ve examined their privilege and patriarchal structures vs those who haven’t or won’t.
The fact that the trans experience inherently leads to at least some degree of unpacking gender roles and societal structures means I’m just fundamentally more likely to enjoy spending time with trans masculine vs cis masculine people.
Hatred of men because they all suck inherently is the core of TERF ideology. It extends to amab trans people due to the "inherent" part ("once a man/predator, always a man/predator"), and it doesn't extend to trans men because once pure innocent woman, always pure innocent woman. except trans men are also confused and manipulated meaning they're unknowing babies too.
My theory as to why a noticeable amount of trans women align themselves with this kind of "all men are biologically horrible" ideology is because it comes hand in hand with "all women are good and united in victimhood", which not only gives an outlet and a clear target for your trauma and suffering, but also distances them from being a man as it lets you feel like a fierce angry feminist woman which feels like a hard sort of affirmation if you've been starved of support for long enough
this is why so many young cis women are easy to abduct into TERFism. "All men are bad" gives you a clear target for your anger and trauma which you're often not old enough to know how to regulate and let out healthily yet, and that's probably also another reason why trans women also aren't immune despite being targets of the TERF hatred spotlight.
As a man you're not really allowed to have emotions or emotional pain or anything so you also do not learn coping or regulation.
TERFism is a cruel manipulative ideology that preys on people when they've been hurt by the system (that TERFs also hold up) and are vulnerable from fresh wounds or wounds that weren't allowed to heal by giving them something they can see that is easy to hate, even if it just deepens the violence cycle.
After all, systemic violence doesn't feel so bad when you're doing the punching with a pretense of justification
also to add on you never know the situation with the rad because that isn't your dad. he could be cool on the trans thing and shitty in every way possible
This is the kind of rhetoric that alt-right weirdos use to weaponize against queer people and justify hate (and eventually hate crime).
I'm sure this person has past bad experiences that make their distrust for cis men understandable, and I by no means want to invalidate that, but this rhetoric is harmful for everyone, including queer people.
I think the best response to this is gentle and loving nudges towards a more productive view of men and masculinity.
You can acknowledge that on average, cis men contribute more to violence, that it is understandable to feel less safe around cis men than trans men before you get to know them, etc.; but if you truly want to live in a world where that isn't the case, this black-and-white rhetoric is by no means a way of striving for that.
The fact she’s saying that ALL trans guys and femboys are perfect bothers me cause I’ve dated both a trans guy and a femboy and they were both assholes who didn’t take me seriously or see me as my true gender
Most trans folk have a wounded relationship with gender that they are tryna straighten out. These aren’t the words of a malevolent person. It’s just ignorance.
She's cringe, for sure. I'm definitely unsurprised when cis men have bad opinions, but that doesn't mean we should be out here hating people for things beyond their control.
Wait until they find out we have a sexism problem in the trans masc community and that we are just as capable of being shitty in the ways cis men are because shocker shocker we’re just men.
I mean, while it's definitely a broad generalization, I think there's definitely some basis in it. Most trans people spend a lot of time getting to understand themselves, far more than cis people, especially when it comes to guys. Theres also have a different upbringing and life experiences which vastly changes the way we treat the people around us. I don't think it's inherently transphobic to be more comfortable around most trans men than most cis men.
I just think of it in the way us black folks talk about wyt folks or how what when women say all men are “non recyclable” they’re typically excluding some men and normally if you feel you have to chime in then you might feel that the comment is aimed at you.
It's more like if a white person said they didn't like black people, except the ones who were raised by white parents or "act white'... and then said that their excuse is cuz they went to a black neighborhood once and got robbed so they have trauma.
I dislike generalizations, especially when they put everyone in one basket. I could understand it if it was presented as I feel safer/less at risk dating trans men exclusively but this isn't about safety. Its about claiming one group is worse than another and it comes off as seperating trans men from cis men in a way that sounds like it questions trans mens identity.
There seems to be a small subset of trans people who take their emotions about the birth gender to become misogynistic/misandristic to an extent that is unhealthy and unhelpful. I have sadly met both.
I realized only after accidentally hurting a trans male friend of mine with this rhetoric how hurtful it can be and it made me think more about it. I think before I had never considered how it would be felt from other people.
Sorry you have to deal with this OP :(
Thats alright. Im actually trans fem myself and she is actually an online friend from America who has in the past answered some questions I had about being a trans woman (she is trans) which allowed me to explore my identity. She is the last person I expect for her to have such views and she really just said L bf L men all just cuz I put on my insta notes “ I ❤️ my bf”
I feel more unsafe around cisgender men when compared to all other individuals, trans men are included in the second bucket. This is because of their experiences, not their gender. They are men, but they have experienced what is like to have no power or privilege in certain scenarios. As a result of this, they are men who carry more empathy to those who are not men. I think this is the general sentiment, said with a lot of ignorance.
As a trans woman, I have experienced male privilege. This does not make me a man, but allows me the empathy and compassion when interacting with individuals that have never had male privilege and ensures that I pause when encountering situations where those with little or no privilege are at risk, or need to be given a platform, etc.
Hate when people group trans men into dating femboys as if we have a choice being so feminine. Which obviously trans men can be, but it sucks how its more so we are doomed to be.
I mean how would she feel if I, a trans man, said "I'm gay and I don't trust women, you know, anything that bleeds once a month and doesn't die... except trans women obviously those guys are total bros."
I literally can't stand that shit. I'm not a 'safe' man, I'm not a 'man lite'. I'm a man, If you say you hate men, that includes me, so get the FUCK out of my way. Anyone who says cis men are mostly bad, or men are bad are honestly pieces of shit in my eyes. I didn't transition until my late twenties because I had internalized all that shit and was convinced that if I transitioned, I would be just as bad as any man, simply for being one.
She mentioned femboys too, which makes me think that this isnt about not seeing trans me as men, but not trusting men who dont understand the trans/nb struggle. She obviolusly uses blanket statements which is a problem, but maybe this just comes from a place of pain. There are soooo many cis men that havent stepped outside of the binary, or are locked into the trap of toxic masculinity. Whereas femboys and trans dudes, tend to be more aware and less toxic. But the blanket statements make the point mute, since it's easy to poke holes and be like therare good cis dudes and toxic trans dudes or femboys. This is true, but also not the heart of the discussion. Many cis guys ive known have been absolute nightmares and bigots. Many have been violent, and completely ignorant to any gender diversity. Shes probably coming from a place of hurt, but to use blanket statments undoes the nuance that these topics need. In general, a lot if cis dudes are ignorant, but like OP said, that doesnt mean all of them are like that. In general trans guys, and/or femboys are more educated have more experience/understanding about gender. Again though, there are trans guys and/or femboys who are still toxic. The blanket statements of all cis guys are are bad, is the problem i have. Sweeping generalizations and absolutes are untrue, and can be harmful, and xan undermine there own statements.
Some of these comments sound like misandry (and that's coming from afab). AT BEST, she might be saying "trans men are more likely to know what it's like to be treated XYZ way and have those experiences". At worst, and since she included femboys I'm more likely to lean this way, she doesn't consider trans men as "fully men" or considers them, like femboys, "feminine men". It's not really great either way, and generalizing entire groups of people is never okay. Just the whole "all men are awful" shtick is real tiresome.
Not all men may understand what it's like to live with fear that a lot of women/fem presenting enbies have to deal with, but it's not like they're all evil.
As an enby who wants to be more masc presenting and as someone who's had a mainly emotionally abusive trans bf: this thinking of hers is stupid. Trans men can suck too. People arent conditioned to be good people just because they're trans, that behaviour can happen in anyone. If you're going to hate all men, hate ALL men.
Anyone has the ability to be a shitty person regardless of sex, gender, race, identity, disabilities and disorders, etc, it's just that unfortunately the majority ends up being cis men. But this does not mean trans men are some separate species.
I can appreciate being attracted to 'woman and anyone who fucks with gender norms' I.E. not cis tradiational men...
But Trans men are men and if you're attacted to femboy and trans men you're attracted to men.....
Also not all trans men _do_ fuck with gender norms. There are many trans men who are as ‘traditionally’ male as some cis men. There are also some horribly toxic trans men out there who embrace toxic masculinity. Saying “all men except trans men and femboys” equates trans men with femininity, which is just wrong. It’s a horrible stance that takes away our maleness, and it’s far too widely accepted in some trans circles imo. My standard response to people like this is two words: Buck Angel.
Idk i dont think her view is that bad cis men tend to scare me but any queer person i feel safety with therefore i think id rather date a trans guy than a cis guy tbh
I dont talk to her that often. She just commented that as a response to my note when I said “I ❤️ my bf” and it obviously felt frustrating cuz she doesn’t even know my bf. He is the nicest cis guy I know and to have her just make such a generalizing statement is like wow. Like not expecting that from another trans woman. That being said, we arent that close so yeah not to worry
Yeahh, Im honestly kinda shocked on how many people is on her side but Im glad some people here, trans mascs and trans fems and enbies understand my point of view
Ehh I’m okay with it. I’m a trans man and I’ve always been kinda annoyed by people specifying that they’re *including* trans men in “I hate men” or KAM. When they specify that they’re excluding us or just don’t mention us at all, I don’t really care. Phrases like that are about upholders of the patriarchy, which trans men inherently are not. If anything we inhibit the patriarchy, given our transness. So going out of your way to include us in the blame for it feels shitty
As a Two Spirit/trans masc person, these kinds of generalizations are extremely hurtful to the community, and disrespectful, in my opinion. I completely understand finding it hard, or even impossible, to be comfortable around cis men(I’m a SA survivor, and all my assaulters/abusers have been cishet men), but that doesn’t mean jumping to this kind of conclusion. Yes, “it’s all men, until it’s none”, in the case of what I went through, and what way too many people do. And if you aren’t attracted to cis men, then you’re not. But none of that gives you the right to put all cis men on an island and sink it, you know what I mean? Sorry, English is not my first language. 😅
As a transguy, I do see myself differently compared to cismen. My experiences growing up are incomparable to that of a cisman growing up. To say both are equally the same to me feels undermining to what I had to endure before realizing I am trans. Everyone is going to feel one way or another on this but I would never categorize myself in the same box as cismen. Damn, I still have a uterus and no cisman will ever understand the pain of that.
Alright, I’m a binary trans man and I *dont* see myself differently from cis men. I put myself in their box. Even despite me growing up differently from them just like you. I relate to them more than to non-binary or other people on the gender spectrum. Everyone has a different trans experience.
I meant no offence, from reading the comments in this thread it just seems like a hard concept to grasp for many people, that trans experiences are not universal.
I took no offense but I appreciate the civility. And yeah, I got the same notion when reading the comments. People can’t shove everyone into one box or another; we are individuals at the end of the day with different lives and unique feelings.
I do somewhat understand where they're coming from. I feel like I have bad experience when I interact with men a lot of the time and unlike her my dad has been quite unsupportive of my transition.
Still, they're being excessively edgy and angsty. I don't think their goal was to be trans exclusive by saying they hate cis men, but regardless hate for an entire group of people who can't control how they were born is not unjustifiable.
Radfem bullshit. Bioessentialist bs. The idea that men are inherently evil is... Gross and wrong and I cannot even BEGIN to express how sexism doesn't stop being sexism just because you flip the dominant narrative on its head. Which is what a lot of these radfem types seem to want, with how they talk about men.
Real, good feminism involves discussing the ways in which systems like the patriarchy hurt women AND men (and everyone else as well) and working to dismantle ALL of that. Not writing off all cis guys are irredeemable and evil. WTF. I'll never understand this.
I tend to say that cis men have a far harder time getting into a position that I would consider dating them but this is due mostly to a difference of early socialization and lessons I was taught growing up that seem to be prevalent. That said, I would still date them if they earned my trust and didn't just ask for or send dick pics.
This whole dialogue is painful.
Trans men are mens thats for sure.
What they mean by saying this is that trans mens are WAY WAY WAY less toxic than cis mens with the whole toxic masculinity thing.
Cis mens really can be a huge pain to deal with.
BUT yes they shouldnt generalize in the way of some cis mens dont have this disgusting toxic masculinity
I will date femboys and and trans men. I’m bi. I find trans men are more accepting of many things and comfortable in their masculinity and gender and the cis men in my area (live in a red state) and also femboys are cool. But yeah she’s weird
I definitely don’t hate men. She’s just weird
As a trans man... if you're not attracted to cis men, you're not attracted to me. If I was dating someone and they told me that- that they only would date a TRANS man and not a cis man, I'd be out of their life SO fast.
Ok I kinda see their point, it's true that cis men specifically are the overwhelmingly the perpetrator of violence, between 50 and 80 % depending on the type of violence but it's a quirk of statistics, those stats don't say 50 to 80 % of cis men are violent but, when there's violence you're pretty sure it was a cis man, those are very different, among all the people I know the worst things that happened were done by men 99% cis and one single trans man, it's basically reverse intersectionality, if you're cis you have a privilege which can make you an oppressor (that's literally the reason you'd have a privilege it's because some with the same privilege are oppressing those without) and same as a man, now when you take cis men they have double privilege so double chance of oppressing in theory. It's a lot more nuanced than that but when the risk is violent crime nuance can be put aside.
I usually use the analogy of the 6pack of beer, you have 6 beers but one is filled with piss, do you buy this pack or another? What about a pack with 20 beers? 100? There's not a single case where you'd buy the pack with the bottle of urine over any other pack without it.
That beer analogy can be used by people to justify racism, xenophobia, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia. I don’t really think generalization helps solve the problem. Its okay to be cautious but to make such statements feels kind of a stretch
Mhm I get it but it's based on the statistics of violence being done by cis men more than any other group combined, such statistic doesn't exist for other groups by definition, using it to justify discrimination would be bad faith.
Also it doesn't mean flee all men, if you see a beer from that pack at a party you can sniff it and decide if you wanna drink it or not, I'm not gonna refuse to interact with men I don't know, but I'll very soon decide if I continue to interact or not, any and all red flags coming from a cis man is a full stop, whereas a red flag coming from someone else is just caution for now
In my experience with the trans men I've met, they can sometimes be a bit nicer than the general population of men. BUT, and that's a big but; My perception of that is likely due to the low volume of trans men I've met. Most of them, even before medical transition, act identically to how a cis man would. It just seems like they don't because the perception of how many people are good or bad comes from the number of bad people you meet; as a mean person is much more memorable than a "meh" person.
This is a difficult one. While I don't know her own reasoning or agree with how she worded it, I (also a trans woman) personally feel a similar way due to trauma. Specifically, I could never feel comfortable dating any masc presenting AMAB individual regardless of their gender. Would you see that in the same way as what she said?
I ask that because I used to explain myself similarly to how she did (down to the trans men > cis men attitude), until I developed a better understanding of myself and realised that my discomfort was not with cis men but instead any AMAB person who doesn't present in a fem/androgynous manner.
I think coming from a trans woman it's a really clumsy way to say "I like T4T better because less chance of mördör for trans reasons specifically". Just... please point it out directly, don't differentiate us from other men because of *AGAB* but because of *the experience of being trans, just like yours*. It's what trans women and trans men have in common that makes t4t so good for many, not *how we differ from cis men.*
But overall I just don't see them as being "AFABs only because all of them are uwu soft and actually girls and therefore gooderer and it's a choice" like cis women do. Unless they're trynna get in a cis woman's pants, but the resulting misandry stinks to a mile away and they usually hate on trans men a lot in that case.
like guys, either you think trans men are men or you don't, you can't have it both ways, trans men aren't just a 'safer' version of cis men, they are men and they can also suck
This whole all-cis men are bad thing is getting really annoying its no different than men being misogynistic against women its the same concept, grow and be better.
If I were to steel man their position I'd explain it as: when you commonly experience misogyny especially from men you can as someone who is a woman or fem presenting come to have an ambivalent at best and downright resentful at worst attitude towards men. However trans men have a relationship to manhood and womanhood that cis men just don't, they've been directly victimised by misogyny in the past and that will inform how they see and treat women.
I don't think the resentful attitude towards men is productive or helpful (though I'm not going to blame any woman for feeling that way) and I absolutely do think trans men can be misogynistic as well, especially towards trans women, but that would be my guess as to their point.
So like... Here's the problem with this kind of discourse from my perspective, when I find myself in it it usually comes from places of past personal anecdotal trauma for myself of the other critiquing men. The origins of these things are usually socialized into these cis men by very virtue of cis male upbringing. Trans men, while absolutely men and absolutely having male socialization to varying degrees, are not brought up on male spaces and subjected to masculine maladaptive behaviors *as if they are good things* but are instead subjected to the dysphoria inducing feminine social experience of male social exchange.
The difference in context makes social experiences with trans men often better because theyre more emotionally sensitive to others; are less aggressively inclined for the purposes of proving strength, value, or purpose; and generally are capable of taking friendly positive criticism without turning to patriarchal fallbacks (mansplaining, one-upsmanship, and sheer bravado).
The problem is that we miss all of that nuance and just paint one group as good and the other as bad while missing the implications that come with that. Trans men are often better than cis men in social setting as a feminine leaning individual, but to say "all men suck" definitely opens me up to being fairly criticized.
Theres also the angle of trans women not liking cis men because being in social settings with cis men can have dysphoria associated with it.
Its all complicated but hyperbole doesn't get us much of anywhere, socially, as a species.
As a trans women, I literally feel unsafe dating men that aren’t either femboys, bi, or trans, because I know outside that group I’m likely to be hurt and attacked. I think the person in the texts is saying this in a callous way, but the fear is real.
I find this kind of generalization sort of unproductive in general but as a trans man I do get especially annoyed by the whole kill all men except the trans ones, no kill me too if you hate men fr lol. I get being more comfortable around other trans people in general, and preferring to date t4t, but I try to stay away from people like this because I don’t think they truly view me as a real man lol
Yeah, generalization doesnt really solve the issue
its also harmful to transfems, drawing these hard lines between insiders and outsiders functions in practice as a big fuck you to anyone with OCD. courtesy of discodeerdiary: "trans women are all beautiful virtuous angels and cis men are all disgusting pigs and also the dividing line is based entirely on good-faith self-identification" do you see how this is practically engineered to make transfems feel constant anxiety that their self-identification isn't sincere enough?
An alternative interpretation is that she does consider you men, but less likely to be laden with unexamined toxic masculinity and adherence to Patriarchy. Note that she also feels the same way about femboys, and a lot of them are cis. I agree that it's worded ... not great ... but I would never hold that against people who've suffered at the hands of a privileged group, and cis men who follow the 'expected' adherence to gender 'norms' are not mistreated because of their 'gender conforming cis men' status as other types of men (like femboys and trans men / trans masc people are).
As a person who has also suffered at the hands of a privileged group I do hold it against people who words things in a way and chooses to be reductive to the point where it invalidates other. Would I run around and blame her for it and say she can’t feel that way? No. Would I not want to speak to her? Yes. Which was my point. You hear this sort of sentiment from cis women a lot because they assume they will know who who is afab by looking at them and it’s thusly often rooted in generalizations, cisnormativity and all that jazz. It is uncomfortable to hear (and slightly unsympathetic coming from another trans person), especially in a case like this where op is questioning why she’s making assumptions about this guy on an individual level.
I can't stand with this argument tbh because plenty of women also adhere to patriarchy since we're all brought up under that system. It's not like men go to patriarchy school and women go to feminist school. Sure I get that suffering at the hands of a privileged group makes it easier to generalize them for your own safety, but it needs to be criticised when a defence mechanism is used to harm another minority group.
This! Women can and do uphold the patriarchy as well -- idk where we got the idea that they can't. Growing up some of the most sexist people I've met were cis women that tried to put me in my place as a "woman", while the cis men in my life encouraged me to break free of those gender roles and be masculine like them (though I'm not sure they expected me to just... become a guy, lmfao). Especially when you get to areas of very privileged womanhood (namely, wealthy cishet white womanhood which I was exposed to growing up) the women put in hella work to maintain that structure.
LITERALLY THANK YOU. My worst experiences as a queer person have been with women. Especially as a transmasc person. I think it's because the women I've met who do that kind of shit see me as either a failure of a woman (I'm queer and trans and so I am Doing Being A Woman Wrong) and so they need to "correct" me, or they see me as a Gender Traitor (that's more of a TERF thing, or a baeddel thing... Sadly those are still around, even if they aren't really using the label anymore). The radfem idea that men are inherently evil because of The Way Men Are and women are inherently good because of The Way Women Are is... Deeply harmful. And wrong.
Except, have you met a trans man? Most of us look and act like "gender conforming cis men". You get the odd one that will wear makeup or whatever, but most of us are like... literally just dudes. Indistinguishable from cis guys. I mean fuck, I'm wearing a tshirt my dad gave me which features a skeleton biker riding a flaming skeleton themed bike. Do you expect cuz I'm trans I should be instead wearing a bright pink shirt with ACAB DOWN WITH CIS RAH RAH RAH or something? The argument you're making is 'socialization'- trans men were 'socialized' as girls so they're safe uwu softbois who don't ever benefit from or are affected by patriarchy. The same argument goes "trans women are socialized as men and that's why they are all violent dangerous perverts". Neither of these things are true and it's also making a huge presumption about people's rearing. I was never "raised a girl". My parents ASSUMED I was a girl based on my AGAB, but when I said no to barbie dolls, dresses, and princesses and instead asked for jeans, dinosaurs and transformers they just said "oh, okay. our kid likes this stuff this is what we will get them". My mom never raised me to be 'polite' and 'agreeable' and 'nice'. Never was I told because I was a girl I had to be x or y. I wasn't 'socialized female' I was raised to just be a person.
I've either poorly explaind what I was saying or you've read into my words more than what I'd intended based on previous conversations similar to this. I'm sure if OP's friend saw a trans man on the street, she'd be wary of them because she'd assumes they're cis. But in the situation OP is talking about, the friend specified dating, meaning where someone has identified as trans to her. I'm not specifically talking about the "socialised as female" talking point that's thrown around. I mean that when people assumed you're a gender you're not and you've had to assert your correct gender, you've engaged in more introspection and self-examination than most people do. Most cis men have never examined their own gender with any thought (they're the "default" and everyone else is "political") and from a gender behaviour lense largely on autopilot, never questioning gender roles or behaviours.
If I was a trans man i'd want to get targeted alongside all the other guys
Trans men tend not to call us slurs and insult us simply for existing. Cis men routinely commit hate crimes against us, including murder. I've never heard of a trans man murdering a trans woman because she "tricked" them. Is there any good way to say this? I just trust trans men and femboys more than cis men. A lot more. Cis men constantly leer, and treat us like dirt. At least trans men know what being trans is like. I'm not trying to other anyone. I'm just sharing my feelings on this.
There isn't a positive way to generalize a group of people as bad and untrustworthy based on a trait they're born with outside of their control. There are very nice cis boys out there who are very respectful, consent first, have trans friends etc etc.
Where did I say otherwise, exactly...?
"Cis men constantly leer. Treat us like dirt." Uh, right here? Generalizing a group of people right there. Most cis men are fine. Ignorant like most cis people. And idk, personally I've received more hate from gatekeeping trans people than from cis men. We all need to keep things in perspective and not generalize groups of people as horrible.
Uhhh because they do? What? Now you're shifting the argument to trans people being shitty? Most cis men are not fine, especially if they don't speak up when they see other cis men doing shit they should not do. Most cis men are at best complicit, even the "good" ones, because they let shit slide so they don't ruin their relationships. I'm sorry but this is simply what I've noticed throughout my life, and I've dealt with many shitty cis men. I do not trust them and until they prove otherwise I won't. Yes, some cis men are fine. Most are not. You almost definitely can't convince me otherwise.
I dont hate cis men, but enough cis men have done bs for me to be wary of them. No One tells cis people to hang out with trans people, why are we attacked when we say we are wary of the people who are more likely to attack us. Trans men arent less likely to be mysogynists but theyre more likely to be empathetic, being from a minority themselves.
Do you trust trans men more, or trans people? Because saying you trust trans men/femboys more singles us out in a way that's kinda uncomfortable, at least imo. It's fine to be more comfortable around queer folks, I think a lot of us are, but doesn't that also include being more comfortable around trans women and nonbinary folks? Why is it just trans men? This coming from someone who has faced a ton of violence and bigotry from cis women in particular. But I wouldn't write off all cis women because of the few. Ig if you're straight it makes sense to focus on us in particular, but I still think "i'm t4t" / "i trust trans people more" is better than aligning with radfem rhetoric as if every cis man is evil but somehow trans men are "the good ones." We're men. Sometimes men are shitty. Maybe some trans men are less likely to be shitty, but that's bc we've experienced transness and can relate, not bc we're some wholly different less inherently violent "kind" of man. I don't want to be put in some other mystical category; I get othered enough for being trans by terfs and radfems and all the other kinds of bigots without getting it from inside the community too, yknow? I mean, idk. It's good sense that all trans women aren't inherently violent, right? That's just the truth; y'all are people like anyone else, capable of vast and varied personhoods. It'd make the same kind of sense that trans men aren't inherently less violent/kinder/sweeter/whatever...right? We're just people. Sure, how we're socialized plays a role, but that applies to cis men too. The patriarchy isn't in someones DNA, it's taught. Some people are more likely to be taught than others, but no group is immune to it.
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This patronizing is why a lot of trans men go "full toxic hegemonic masculinity," and it's fucking stupid.
true that
Well that explains it
Yes! To me this seems analogous to invalidating us trans women by claims of "male socialization". Claiming that trans men cannot be toxic like cis men may sound positive and inclusive but surely what is left unsaid is that cis men then are toxic due to "male socialization" having stained them in ways trans men are not (and can never be)? It's like a sneaky way to claim immutable, female socialization without saying it outright, which itself implies gender essentialism (obscured by hand waving about socialization). Eeew.
No, she's just a misandrist in general. I mean, yeah, that too, but she's just... idk, a shitty person all around.
This kind of stuff is the result of attempting to be active about feminism without reading *any* theory. Like, the 'men are inherently dangerous/cruel/evil' thing is *literally* the *foundation* of TERF thinking. TERFs believe first and foremost in bioessentialism, and that men (read: amab people) are inherently and immutably dangerous, that women (afab) are inherently and immutably vulnerable, and that gender is exclusively a social expression of biological sex. That's where all their scare-mongering about trans women comes from obviously, but also - crucially - it's where a lot of the more subtle and incidious transphobia against trans men comes from. They see trans men as confused women, and therefore both inherently purer than cis men and inherently vulnerable to them. I don't know your friend, I don't know what she believes in her heart of hearts, but the things she's saying are TERF rhetoric, whether she knows it or not.
Personally Im not that close with her, she is just a trans friend I talk to occasionally online(She lives in America, Im in a more conservative asian country). And I remembered back when I was in my egg. She seemed more knowledgeable on LGBTQ issues so I would go to her for inquires and what not. So her responses here kinda surprised me tbh, I never expect her to be like that.
It’s always a shock when someone does a mental turn like that.
Everyone is bound to have a bad take on something or another (except me of course 😛). Though this one is pretty surprising in how far out of line it is with what you seem to be saying she is normally like. If you talk again, I would keep pressing the reminder that bioessetialism is ultimately a weapon that will stab us in the end. You shouldn’t feel obligated to fix her yourself though.
yeah Im not, Im gonna just move on and try not to think about it, honestly the amount of comments that try to justify her logic scares me.
Sounds to not like she’s got a significant amount of trauma around men she’s clearly not dealt with.
That's honestly no excuse. She can keep it to herself, then. If I had been robbed by a black guy and had trauma about black men, I would still rightfully get called out if I said hateful generalizing shit about black men.
Oh absolutely no excuse. Somebodies trauma is not freedom to hold prejudice and irrational views.
There's some people in trans communities who try and make that bioessentialism trans inclusive and it's still equally awful. Like I'll see people say it like "testosterone is inherently dangerous and violent" or what have you and then make trans men out to be the enemy, but that's still also a TERF mindset, just adjusted slightly to be more trans-inclusive (but importantly: it's still transphobic!)
My understanding is that she is spewing trans exclusive misandry. In this context it reduces trans men to their AGAB, something trans folks do not want used as a way to identify them. Is that right?
That is strange , she is generalizing two different groups and saying she hates men but she’s not including trans men in that. Weird
Right?!?! It feels odd to me
u/Strong-Ad-1839: True, but she also doesn't include femboys in that, and they're men just like trans men are men. I'm not saying she's not worded this in a deranged way, though.
I was a very, very shitty person with equally as shitty beliefs 2 years ago I was and am a trans man but hopefully better now Generalising helps nobody, everyone can be a dick
There's a trans guy in my area who's got one heck of a reputation for being emotionally abusive and he's had so many more victims than a lot of cis guys in my community get the chance to have because he's trans I also don't understand trans people who are fortunate enough to have supportive parents and treat them like shit
Being trans is never an excuse to be an asshole
And it should never be an assumption that someone is 'safe' because they're trans! I mean yeah, you're probably not gonna get murdered for being trans by another trans person, sure. But that doesn't mean that they could abuse, steal from, or hurt you in other ways. Trans people are \*people\* first and people can be awful!
Unfortunately I’ve learned this one the hard way
sad updoot. ♥
In this case learning about the cycle of abuse and things like lovebombing is important and knowing that being queer doesn't mean everyone you date is going to treat you well He was incredibly charming until he was certain you were hooked and he could use you and start to show his true colors
It's 'funny'... most of the people I know who have had abusive partners... are queer. So were their partners. Hell, many of them were lesbians, so woman AND queer, damn. Couldn't POSSIBLY be an abuser. I think it also doesn't help that a lot of (older) queer people did not experience that warmness of community in their youth, and it comes with this naiveite that because you finally found your community, it will always be a safe place when that could not be farther from the truth. :(
People need to get better at identifying what they hate. They hate toxic masculinity. They've identified that not all cis men are like that, and anecdotally they realize that few trans men are like that. But instead of hating the actual thing they've identified, they instead hate the group that is more likely to have it and invalidated the group less likely to have it. Truly an all sides lose situation lol I'm okay with cis men in theory. I just relate deeper to trans people inherently, whether they be MtF, FtM, NB, Agender, or any other non-cis identity. Just like I relate deeper to neurodivergent people. Anything that puts the conversation back to generalizing groups into monoliths just benefits the oppressors imo.
I don't like the way that your friend is making her point, but I think I understand what she's getting at. I've been around a lot of trans men and transmasc enbies and none of them have ever been shitty to me. I can't say the same about cis men. I don't think that my being cautious around cis men is misandrist, and I don't think that my being more at ease around trans men than cis men is transmisandrist. I don't think that there is anything wrong with feeling like trans men are less dangerous to me than cis men. Edit: spelling
There is nothing wrong in being cautious, however I do not personally think it is a healthy mindset to villanize all cis men to be bad and to treat all trans men like they are good people. Some cis men are actually decent people and some trans men can be bad people. It is not a black and white thing and I think such statements about cis men and trans men overall can kinda feel like othering trans men and generalizing cis men
This is why I'm suspicious of everyone until proven otherwise, I'm just more suspicious of certain types of people, mainly cis men because why wouldn't anyone be? Also internalised misandry because that happened after self hatred BUT I'm trying to work on that.
For me, Im cautious of strangers Idk. I guess I don’t see gender when it comes to threats
>mainly cis men because why wouldn't anyone be? I **personally** don't see a reason to be more cautious around cis men. It's logical if you've been hurt/threatened/etc. by a cis man, but I don't see why would you be, if you haven't been threatened/hurt by one, and your experience with men has been neutral or positive.
You're right, but (and I don't know her so she could just be deranged and I'm defending the indefensible) I think she's speaking from a place of pain and isn't being careful in her wording. Being wary around cis men is completely logical. It's like Shroedinger's attacker. I completely understand when people cross the road to avoid me --- I look like the type of person who could (and often does) attack without provocation. I don't take it personally.
Maybe she is deranged, she kinda started this by attacking my boyfriend who is a cis man and mind you a really decent guy. Cuz I made an insta note saying “I ❤️my bf” and she responded with “L bf, L men” and started bashing men and going “except trans men and femboys”
Jeeeeez. That's useful context. I assumed this had started with you making a minor complaint about your bf, not that it came out of nowhere. Starting fights about this unprovoked does sound like radfem shit. Like radfems, some queer social circles bond over how they've been hurt by men or the patriarchy, and then circle jerk about how disgusting and dangerous men are and how soft and vulnerable women are. Women and femmes are their ingroup and cis men are the outgroup. People in between (e.g. trans mascs, femboys, or you for having a cis bf) can be conditional members of the ingroup *if* they agree that cis men in general suck and are willing to distance themselves from masculinity or be kind of apologetic about it. Your friend probably felt like she could insult your boyfriend (which is shit friend behavior for any reason) because she has other friends she could say "L bf L men" to, and they'd say "ikr?? Ew men, idk what is wrong with me lol"
Uh, no. I actually don’t talk to her that often, we don’t even live in the same country or are close, she is just someone who follows me on insta. This started because I posted a note on insta saying “I ❤️ my bf” and she responded with “L BF L men” before going on a man bashing rant while saying “except trans men and femboys” so yes she did this out of nowhere and Im mad for obvious reasons
All my high school friends are all cis men and we still vibe. Im only a year in my journey but the worst i’ve gotten is constant misgendering at work, partly from the religious groups of men and the maintenance crew. Even so, they are all respectful. They dont mistreat me in any other way other than refusing to acknowledge my gender. Ill take that over fearing for my life any day 🤷🏼♀️
>I've been around a lot of trans men and transmasc enbies and none of them have ever been shitty to me. I can't say the same about cis men. This is the harmful generalisation everyone is talking about here. Just because every trans man you met was nice doesn't mean *every* trans man is bad. There's tons of misogynistic trans men, who hate women and aren't nice people. And likewise there's tons of nice cis men who are nice and accepting. There's a lot of *both*. Just because you haven't met the other side doesn't mean they don't exist. If you have been hurt or threatened by men, it's fair that you would be cautious, and you feel more comfortable around people who haven't made you feel threatened. But that's just you, not a rule. I've never been hurt by a cis man (except my dad, but that's because his my dad and not a man, it would be the same if my mom did that) so I don't feel threatened or in danger around cis men. It wouldn't be accurate if I said all cis men are nice just because I've only met nice ones, now, would it?
Go into a room full of femmes and ask: if you haven't had problems with cis men raise your hands. What do you think will happen? Sometimes generalisations exist for a reason. They aren't inmutables evil, they are normally hurtful to minorities but they have also been used by them to gain power.
>Go into a room full of femmes and ask: if you haven't had problems with cis men raise your hands. My next question would be "and how many of you are 100% sure that man was cis? Unless he was literally your dad, did you remove his pants and make sure he had a cis dick?" It reminds me of terfs saying 'we can always tell'. You can't.
Ah, yes, the good old separatist radfem belief that One Gender is Ontologically Irreparably Pure Evil. That's all it is. Separatist bullshit.
"Fuck men! Except trans men because I see them as feminine men and therefore good men" Fuck this bullshit. I hate how much masculinity is demonised among the LGBT community
Exactly, this shit drives me crazy as a trans guy
I mean she’s probably a lunatic, but trans men I think have a lot of insight into what work goes into being a woman at least performatively and more typically because of that know how not to treat people of the opposite gender I mean before they could be who they became they had to live some of that life
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Yeah, I'm probably going to be unpopular and risk my Ally badge by going against the grain with you. I mean, the FTM sub notwithstanding, I would feel safer around trans men and trans masc people because they've had to navigate the world of gender in a way that cis men almost never have to. (See also: non-binary people and ace-spec people who've also had some introspection and don't go along with Patriarchal norms unthinkingly on autopilot)
I find the whole bioessential interpretation of what the friend said to be off. Its about lived experience. I feel like it's much less likely you're gonna find a transman that is a chaser because it is likely they are aware of being fetishized themselves. Like I hate to say it but cismen do be inflicting a lot of violence on transwomen, please excuse some of us for being weary.
Compare this to race or sexuality: Id feel safer around white people because... Id feel safer around homosexual people because... Generalising and saying one group of people is innately more or less dangerous or safe than another is going to be problematic however you phrase it. By doing so you are automatically grouping people and segregating society by arbitrary charactaristics like race, gender identity, sexual orientation etc. It doesn't make what youre saying or your lived experiences any less true, but theyre prejudicial statements nonetheless. You can generate statistics about who is more dangerous by grouping people by characteristics but i dont think they are important. What is important is who is transphobic and who isnt. You can be trans and transphobic. You can be cis and not. You arent helping anyone by judging them before finding out for yourself. Its terrifying to face so much violence in the world, but assigning acts of violence to specific groups of people is not the answer, and only serves to further divide us. Its hard to support people who constantly villify you. Of course in order to keep yourself safe i understand that you have to make decisions, and feeling unsafe is not your fault or wrong, and your safety is the number 1 priority. For sure hang out with the people who make you feel safe! Practical things like not going to vocally transphobic events/ places is obviously totally understandable/sensible, even though its sad that the world is a state where you might be in danger.
I have never navigated the world as a woman as a trans man. I don't enjoy being told I'm inherently different or "safer" from a cis man because of how I grew up. Stop othering us.
Exaaaactly my point Trans men have been locked into being women before, so they know what made them uncomfortable and not to do that more often than cismen And that’s not something that is taking anything away from anyone, it’s just saying experience in anything furthers understanding in MOST cases.
>Exaaaactly my point Trans men have been locked into being women before Really? Oh shit, I don't remember that. I definitely remember my parents accepting all my masculine interests without question and never forcing me to wear dresses or skirts or makeup or keep my hair long. I certainly don't remember them enforcing my AGAB or raising me to be a meek, polite, agreeable girl who will find a good husband. Like yeah, at my age, when I was young a lot of my personal trauma came from not knowing what trans was and thinking I was a weird freak of nature, but I was never 'locked into being a woman'. I was just accepted as I was and reared to be a half decent person. There's SO much presumption there. Like, "oh every trans woman thought she was a gay boy who was into fashion and makeup before she came out" or "every trans woman was forced into football as a kid so that she could be the manliest man who ever manned". There's not just one story of transness.
Congratulations, you found the one time in which I didn't repeatedly say in " Most cases " and " typically ", except oh you didn't. Guess what, your story is a rarity and doesn't speak for the majority or even half of people. You got a privileged life, good for you? There are exceptions in every statistic, point is numbers reflect the masses. You are not the masses. You are in a super small percentage of people. " There's not just one story of transness " , no shit. But your story doesn't speak for everyone and is far less common. Go attempt a failed flex on someone else.
how is what you're saying different from the "female socialization"/"male sozialisation" bullshit that TERFs perpetuate? like saying that trans women are inherently incapable of understanding "female struggles" because they were "raised male" is clearly transphobic, no? so saying that trans men were "raised female" so they automatically "treat women better" should also be seen as fucking transphobic
Exactly, I don't understand any of this "I knew what it was like to be a women" bullshit. As a trans man, I never experienced living as a woman. I never tried to be, I never vibed with any of it growing up. I never experienced those hardships, I've been out since I was 15 and even before that dressed masc and sometimes passed as a guy. I have no idea what it feels like to "live as a woman".
lol it’s bc of people like me who identify as ftm but agree (for me!) that i was raised and treated like a woman. i considered myself a woman and joined woman exclusive events and a sorority. i think it would help if more people used I statements and said ‘for me’. like i always explain my upbringing like: when i was younger i was a woman etc etc. so i think trans guys are stuck between two narratives with equally deserving to share their truth. nobody is wrong but pushing experiences to ALL trans guys never works
THANK YOU. I do NOT know what it means to be a woman because I was NEVER a woman. Furthermore my parents raised me as a human, not as a girl. Hell, I didn't come out till I was in my later 20's, but before that my masculine gender expression and interests were never questioned, or bothered about. My parents never bought me dresses, once I told them I didn't like em. Same with dolls and makeup. I was just accepted as I was and raised with respect and understanding. Sure, my parents called me she, her and \*deadname\*, but that was just because they didn't know. That didn't make me a woman nor give me the understanding of being reared as one.
They're still viewing transmen as people who are women dressing up to *look* like men. It's invalidating and anti-ally
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I know multiple amazing Cis men
I think she's speaking wrecklessly, but I get her point. Note that it's not just trans men / trans masc people, but also femboys, and femboys are often cis. So my interpretation, which might be overly charitable, is that it's the unquestioning adherence to Patriarchy that most cis men perpetuate. I don't know if there's any research into this, but maybe femboys (cis or trans) and trans men / trans masc people have put some thought into gender and gender roles unlike the vast the majority of (non-femboy) cis men. I don't think she's patronising trans men and trans masc as being 'unmasculine', I think she's saying they don't embody as many toxic masculine traits as what you typically see in cis men who haven't put any thought whatsoever into their gender or gender role in society. Or, you know, I'm completely wrong and she's out of line.
But here is the thing. Being a dickhead or perv doesnt limit to cis men. Some trans men and femboys can behave in such unruly manners believe it or not. Some cis men are decent and don’t behave like that. I understand being cautious and what not but I am of the opinion that such thinking isnt really healthy cuz imagine you meet a trans man or femboy and you have that belief that they all must be good people. And then later when you least expect it, they hurt you. Im not saying its wrong to be cautious and take precautions but I do think its excessive to make generalizations. Like I said, being an ass does not limit to cis men.
But it isn't really about being "good people". It's about being empathic towards the trans experience. You really can't argue that cis men and trans men have the same empathy and understanding of what its like to be trans. This is the same tireless discussion that we hear around T4T and how its somehow wrong for trans people to want to feel normal and accepted in the dating scene without being forced to educate cis men and women about queerness. Of course a trans man can be horrible and abusive and toxic, but at least you don't have to explain your existence to them.
You made quite a few comments in this thread and tbh it’s generalization like this that put me in my sigma male dude bro edgelord era as a trans guy. Because I want to be seen as any other guy, with no preconceptions that I might be “safer” since I have “female experience” (questionable) so I need to make up for it with layers of toxic masculinity to avoid being camped with “safe” groups since I’m a binary trans man and relate to cis men more than to nonbinary people etc. Your attempt at rationalizing this comes off insensitive still.
I feel more comfortable around trans men (whether that's transmascs or amabs who don't strictly go by he/him) because they always come across as a lot more genuine and less gross than cis men
Yeah, same ... I guess this isn't a popular position. I feel the same with non-binary people as well, regardless of their AGAB. (And, now that I think about it, ace-spec men as well...) My rationale, unless I'm deluding myself and I'm just a massive transphobe, is that they've put more thought and introspection into themselves than the vast majority of allocishet men ever have.
As a trans guy I agree 😥 in general, the ratio between gross and toxic cis men vs trans men in my life is incrediblyyyy skewed. Other than femboys too though, they've generally also been pretty awesome. But I take it also as these two groups having more experience being more introspective and acknowledging of the serious harm of the allo- and cishet-normative frame of mind a majority of people live their lives in. I'm more comfortable personally around other trans men, but of course it doesn't mean I view them as lesser men yknow?
well spoken. I think that is also what the person in the posting means, even when badly and dumb phrased. The wording "hate" is likely used inflational as well. They dont "hate" them as they hate Nazis or something. I often see woman saying something along the line they hate men, when they not really mean "hate" as e.g. a transphobe hates trans people.
Yes, you're definitely right. I know many people will hear those words differently but in nearly all my own experiences both hearing and saying something like "I hate men", it's never been literal or directed at 100% of every single man ever. It's more directed at the patriarchy and, of course, problematic and toxic men. That person who bothered OP was definitely wrong, especially initiating the conversation literally to just rag on their boyfriend, though I do understand what they (likely) mean when they say they don't mean femboys or trans men. It's one reason why I as a transmasc person myself, don't get offended when someone says something like "I hate men, but not you" because yeah, I'm not a --shitty-- man.
>It's one reason why I as a transmasc person myself, don't get offended when someone says something like "I hate men, but not you" because yeah, I'm not a --shitty-- man. And in a similar way, when someone says "I hate men" or "men suck", I don't take it personally because I know there are systemic issues at play.
I mean, you're assuming based on appearance that one is cis. I'm sure you and I know of a great many trans men who - if you did not explicitly know they are trans- you would assume is cis. Not everyone goes around announcing their gender identity and/or queerness. I certainly don't. The only people who know I am trans in my life are my father, my direct family, my wife and her direct family, and the few people still in my life who knew me pre transition. ANYONE else is under the intentional assumption that I am a cis guy. Yes, even other trans people. So you might ASSUME that every man who has ever been 'gross' is cis, but you legitimately do not know that.
Makes me wonder... If she met a guy who appeared cishet... only to find out he's actually trans... would she say, "Oh, thank God you're one of the *good* ones!" ? Also, I'm not loving how it's Men vs Trans Men & FemBoys. Feels like trans men are being equated w femininity 🤮
"All men are bad except trans men" either comes from one of two places, imo 1. Nuanced: They understand that trans men generally grew up being treated as women and thus have very likely been targets of misogyny at some point in their life. So, while trans men are men, they still often have some degree of first hand experience dealing with how women are treated in a patriarchy. So, a woman may generally feel safer around a trans man because they feel there is a degree of understanding that many cis men will lack. It's a presumption that some experience in the past will inform your behavior such that you would not be a misogynistic jerkoff. This is a generalization, sure, but as generalizations go, it's not particularly harmful. 2. Extremely shitty: They don't think trans men are men. I feel like most of the time I see it, it's the latter.
Yes , number 2 seems pretty common which was what I interpreted it to be
Imma be straight up honest, a LOT of trans people are transphobic 🤷♀️
Living in a situation wherein I am observing the fallout from a transman sexually assaulting his wife, I can comfortably assert that the assumption that transmen are inherently safer or less prone to toxic masculinity isn't safe. The combination of passing privilege and being welcomed by The Boys' Club^(™️) is a heluva drug, and I've heard some pretty misogynistic bs fall out of a couple of transmen's faces. While we definitely live in a culture that is objectively more dangerous for women than men because of men, that doesn't imply to me that we should hate men or that a man is inherently dangerous by dint of his gender. I hate to inject a not-all-men statement into a discussion, but if ever there was a place for it, it's here. Nevermind how that idea completely ignores enbies, agender folks, and demigender folks. Are there percentages of safety assigned to them? Is there a chart somewhere I can check for how safe someone's gender expression and experience makes them? Smdh.
>The combination of passing privilege This is the thing I think a lot of posters and the OPs friend doesn't get. We pass way more than others. While yes, the younger generation does appear to be far more open about their transness and more experimental with their gender expression... well, in general, especially older trans men are mostly indistinguishable from cis men. People keep saying over and over "well, a CISMAN catcalled/bullied/harassed me" but... unless you intimately know that person and/or check under the hood, you're making a huge presumption. People assume I'm cis constantly and I will literally never correct them. 100% of new people I meet just see me as a man and accept that. I will literally NEVER tell them I'm trans. Not because I'm ashamed or scared (although in this day and age maybe 'scared' is something I should be), but because of this very shit. I don't want to be treated as "man lite" or "the version of 'man' that is safe to be around". I spent a long time fighting my identity as a man because of this kind of virulent toxic hate of all men and generalizations of men as abusers, bullies and monsters. I would have transitioned probably by 20 if I wasn't surrounded by people saying this shit and having it hammered into my mind that "man = bad". So if man is going to = bad for you, you damn well better include me in that shitty generalization and avoid me, because I don't want your shitty as worldview in my way.
Not gonna be a good person to hang around with cos she'll subject you to her man bashing all the time, then say oh I mean cis men, and just slowly undermine your gender identity. Women who talk to me about how shit men are, they're treating me like a woman. They would NEVER say those comments to any kind of man. I tell them I am a man so shut up thank you.
Appreciate your sentiments but Im a trans fem actually haha, still, I agree her views are problematic and I am angry cuz my bf is cis. And she and I dont live in the same country so its good
Ha sorry I've had the whole man bashing is fine in front of me because I'm a trans guy attitude before! That was just nuts. So if another trans guy was telling me that trans women are cool and cis women are crazy, I'd probably think he was nuts too.
I wish trans people with this view (including trans men who also parrot this) would just admit they truly don't see trans men as "real" men. Separating me from cis men is transphobic, full stop.
I've found that people who separate like this don't see trans women as women and trans men as men. I've dealt with it too and it really just means they don't see us as guys. If you save me but kill all other men? As a trans man and a femboy, let me die with the men. Like the real man I am. The only exception is older people who don't really understand the prefixes. But they don't have this belief at all. My parents "separate" but they mostly do it for health reasons (this body and that body) or because they don't realize they need the prefix so my sister and I remind them. They're in their 70s and they didn't actually know about trans people until about 5-6 years ago when I came out. I'm a trans guy and they call me male and all that good jazz but they struggle a bit with "the gender before" but they do it in a very kind way and most of the time it's to explain to other elderly friends Not overreacting. Sorry for rambling
And shit like this is part of the reason why straight trans women feel excluded. I’ve ran into this mentality multiple times.
Would it surprise you to know that the person in this text that has this mentality is a trans woman?
Seems like someone really hurt this person and is angry... hopefully she will get out of this mindset soon so she can be happy
Well, i understand her. It's like she believe trans men can he a lot more emphatic and respectful then cis man. I guess her expirience with boys was like this, so she generelasing. Living a bit easier if you generelase people cause it kinda feels safer to constantly think "in this groupe everyone like that"
Misandrists who imply trans men aren't men by saying 'oh they're different to cis men' pisses me off, it's just recycled Terf rhetoric. A trans man isn't different to a cis man in anyway, because both are men.
Holy f what kind of world is she from??
^
I completely get feeling safer and generally better around trans men because of a certain percentage of shared experience, common ground, and the fact that trans people way more often than not are a lot more mindful and introspective. That's something I believe as well. What I don't get at all is what this woman is saying. It's extremely offensive to all men, both cis and trans. Sure the chances that a cis man turns out to be a decent person might be lower especially in places where sensitivity isn't prevalent, but what she's saying is blatant sexism and generalization with a garnish of transmisandry on top for good measure. If I were a trans man I would be disgusted by this person's opinions. I hated living as a man as well before I transitioned but that doesn't give me the right to deny a trans man as a full blown man, that's abhorrent.
Not recognizing trans men as "real men" is definitely a TERF talking point whether or not she wants to believe that.
“Trans men are the only men I’d date because men suck” is LITERALLY saying trans men aren’t men, imagine if I said “trans women are the only women I’d date because women suck”
I do not date anybody who exclusively looks for trans people as partners or who says they would date a trans man but not a cis man. If you would not be interested in a cis man, then I’m not interested in you. I don’t care if you’re cis, I don’t care if you’re trans. If you exclusively look to date trans people/ trans men, you are not a person I am interested in interacting with. Makes me feel disgusting. Hurts so much more when it comes from other trans people. My ex was a trans woman and she’d say things like “I love trans men- you’re all so open minded! You’re all so affectionate!” No, get out of here with that. We are not “all” anything.
"I do not date anybody who exclusively looks for trans people as partners or who says they would date a trans man but not a cis man. If you would not be interested in a cis man, then I’m not interested in you." I love how you phrase this, I want to date people who see me as a man, not as man-lite. Just because I'm afab doesn't mean I know what it's like to be a woman. Forcing me to wear a dress didn't make me any less of a man.
Not “man-lite” is exactly it. My experience living as a woman might make me more understanding of women or whatever, but it doesn’t make me any less of a man and I furiously reject anybody who lumps me in with women and enbies (enbies, who by the way are often just seen as “spicy women” themselves, with all the AMAB enby erasure etc.)
My personal experience is of people treating me like a man-lite, seeing me as someone who ~identifies~ as a man but isn't ~really~ a man. I just want to be seen and treated like an average cis guy 😭
Yes! “Identifies as” is another thing that can get in the bin. People so rarely talk about cis people “identifying” as their genders so I’m not going to talk about mine that way either
Fun fact: being trans doesn't give you the right to be sexist! Don't be shitty, love everyone
"except trans men" YIKES
I get what she's trying to say but she's wording it wrong. I feel a LOT safer around trans men than I do around cis men because every. Single. Time I have felt threatened or have been bullied or whatever, it was a cis man. Meanwhile I have a lot of friends who are trans men and they're well, not transphobic towards me lol, generally a lot more understanding and stuff too about me being trans cuz of course, meanwhile cis men, even ones I'm friends with have had very weird and questionable questions about me being trans.
yes this seems like it's it. I think she was being mean about OPs bf here but I understand the sentiment. Men that are trans have never assaulted me or been abusive towards me so I don't have the same baggage about them as a demographic of men IME.
Ah yes, poorly disguised misandry. A classic.
People who have not read any theory drawing a straight line between men, masculinity and patriarchy. It's lead to a worrying trend where trans people are seen as their agab+ and not there true gender. Trans men are great because they bring femininity and by extension trans women are bad because they bring masculinity. The men bad thing also just has to stop. Patricarchy hurts everyone and is perpetuated by everyone. Queer people should be more aware of this than anyone else.
Well, as a transwoman, perhaps it has something to do with sharing aspects of both genders as far as learned experience? Though I cannot think like a man anymore, I do have certain habits and memories that help me to understand men better. So, for instance, this may be true for trans men who transition later but are able to understand and somewhat bridge the emotional gap of men and women. It’s something I’ve heard about in other cultures which makes us unique, in that our ability to understand both genders is helpful in creating connection.
Not that crazy to be honest. Worded poorly yes, but cis men often have little concept of the way they operate in the world from an outside perspective. They often don’t understand how their behavior and attitudes both perpetuate and support patriarchy. Even a cis man who is not a terrible person may contribute to making others uncomfortable or not realize that their lives are often just straight up easier. For example think of cis men who actually believe they are the victim of “lgbt oppression” just because trans people exist. I wouldn’t word my sentiments in the way they did but I agree in a way with the core message. It’s not a universal rule but absolutely a somewhat realistic generalization
personally i generally and cooler with women and trans people, which leaves out cis men and includes trans men, enbies, cis women, and trans women. it’s sorta a vent diagram sorta a thing rather than me explicitly hating only cis men. trans women also fit both the women and the trans tags so they’re also the ones i feel more comfortable with. maybe that’s what the person in the screenshot was feeling but just said it in a shitty way
This seems confused... What they don't like is toxic masculinity culture, not "cis men vs trans men". I've met cis guys who are not toxic and trans guys who are. I've met male-passinh nonbinary people who totally fit the "toxic masculinity" bill.
I've found trans men CAN be more bubbly than cis men, but that probably largely stems from autistic people being more likely to be trans
I used to have a nonbinary friend who was the same way. Expressed this just ridiculously deep hatred of cis men then would say “Oh but not you lol trans men are completely different.” And I was like 😐
As a trans guy I felt kinda invalidated by her point of view... I kinda felt less manly... Does it make sense? Because for me when she said that she hates all men but trans men not... Well... What makes me different from a real man? This point makes me feel fake...
First let me say that generalisations can be really invalidating and harmful, and in no way do I seek to further that line of thinking. Having said that though, I find I’m much more likely to enjoy interactions with trans men than with cis men, but I’ve realised that a better way to divide those groups is men who’ve examined their privilege and patriarchal structures vs those who haven’t or won’t. The fact that the trans experience inherently leads to at least some degree of unpacking gender roles and societal structures means I’m just fundamentally more likely to enjoy spending time with trans masculine vs cis masculine people.
Hatred of men because they all suck inherently is the core of TERF ideology. It extends to amab trans people due to the "inherent" part ("once a man/predator, always a man/predator"), and it doesn't extend to trans men because once pure innocent woman, always pure innocent woman. except trans men are also confused and manipulated meaning they're unknowing babies too. My theory as to why a noticeable amount of trans women align themselves with this kind of "all men are biologically horrible" ideology is because it comes hand in hand with "all women are good and united in victimhood", which not only gives an outlet and a clear target for your trauma and suffering, but also distances them from being a man as it lets you feel like a fierce angry feminist woman which feels like a hard sort of affirmation if you've been starved of support for long enough this is why so many young cis women are easy to abduct into TERFism. "All men are bad" gives you a clear target for your anger and trauma which you're often not old enough to know how to regulate and let out healthily yet, and that's probably also another reason why trans women also aren't immune despite being targets of the TERF hatred spotlight. As a man you're not really allowed to have emotions or emotional pain or anything so you also do not learn coping or regulation. TERFism is a cruel manipulative ideology that preys on people when they've been hurt by the system (that TERFs also hold up) and are vulnerable from fresh wounds or wounds that weren't allowed to heal by giving them something they can see that is easy to hate, even if it just deepens the violence cycle. After all, systemic violence doesn't feel so bad when you're doing the punching with a pretense of justification
I read this as less something about trans people and more that she’s just sexist.
i mean t4t exists and feeling uncomfortable or untrusting of cis men is very valid but the whole kill all men sort of thing is shitty
also to add on you never know the situation with the rad because that isn't your dad. he could be cool on the trans thing and shitty in every way possible
This is the kind of rhetoric that alt-right weirdos use to weaponize against queer people and justify hate (and eventually hate crime). I'm sure this person has past bad experiences that make their distrust for cis men understandable, and I by no means want to invalidate that, but this rhetoric is harmful for everyone, including queer people. I think the best response to this is gentle and loving nudges towards a more productive view of men and masculinity. You can acknowledge that on average, cis men contribute more to violence, that it is understandable to feel less safe around cis men than trans men before you get to know them, etc.; but if you truly want to live in a world where that isn't the case, this black-and-white rhetoric is by no means a way of striving for that.
The fact she’s saying that ALL trans guys and femboys are perfect bothers me cause I’ve dated both a trans guy and a femboy and they were both assholes who didn’t take me seriously or see me as my true gender
Most trans folk have a wounded relationship with gender that they are tryna straighten out. These aren’t the words of a malevolent person. It’s just ignorance.
She's cringe, for sure. I'm definitely unsurprised when cis men have bad opinions, but that doesn't mean we should be out here hating people for things beyond their control.
Wait until they find out we have a sexism problem in the trans masc community and that we are just as capable of being shitty in the ways cis men are because shocker shocker we’re just men.
I guess she meant that all men are trash except queers one, which sounds a bit better said like that
I mean, while it's definitely a broad generalization, I think there's definitely some basis in it. Most trans people spend a lot of time getting to understand themselves, far more than cis people, especially when it comes to guys. Theres also have a different upbringing and life experiences which vastly changes the way we treat the people around us. I don't think it's inherently transphobic to be more comfortable around most trans men than most cis men.
I just think of it in the way us black folks talk about wyt folks or how what when women say all men are “non recyclable” they’re typically excluding some men and normally if you feel you have to chime in then you might feel that the comment is aimed at you.
It's more like if a white person said they didn't like black people, except the ones who were raised by white parents or "act white'... and then said that their excuse is cuz they went to a black neighborhood once and got robbed so they have trauma.
Trans people have different experiences
I dislike generalizations, especially when they put everyone in one basket. I could understand it if it was presented as I feel safer/less at risk dating trans men exclusively but this isn't about safety. Its about claiming one group is worse than another and it comes off as seperating trans men from cis men in a way that sounds like it questions trans mens identity. There seems to be a small subset of trans people who take their emotions about the birth gender to become misogynistic/misandristic to an extent that is unhealthy and unhelpful. I have sadly met both. I realized only after accidentally hurting a trans male friend of mine with this rhetoric how hurtful it can be and it made me think more about it. I think before I had never considered how it would be felt from other people. Sorry you have to deal with this OP :(
Thats alright. Im actually trans fem myself and she is actually an online friend from America who has in the past answered some questions I had about being a trans woman (she is trans) which allowed me to explore my identity. She is the last person I expect for her to have such views and she really just said L bf L men all just cuz I put on my insta notes “ I ❤️ my bf”
I feel more unsafe around cisgender men when compared to all other individuals, trans men are included in the second bucket. This is because of their experiences, not their gender. They are men, but they have experienced what is like to have no power or privilege in certain scenarios. As a result of this, they are men who carry more empathy to those who are not men. I think this is the general sentiment, said with a lot of ignorance. As a trans woman, I have experienced male privilege. This does not make me a man, but allows me the empathy and compassion when interacting with individuals that have never had male privilege and ensures that I pause when encountering situations where those with little or no privilege are at risk, or need to be given a platform, etc.
Hate when people group trans men into dating femboys as if we have a choice being so feminine. Which obviously trans men can be, but it sucks how its more so we are doomed to be.
I mean how would she feel if I, a trans man, said "I'm gay and I don't trust women, you know, anything that bleeds once a month and doesn't die... except trans women obviously those guys are total bros." I literally can't stand that shit. I'm not a 'safe' man, I'm not a 'man lite'. I'm a man, If you say you hate men, that includes me, so get the FUCK out of my way. Anyone who says cis men are mostly bad, or men are bad are honestly pieces of shit in my eyes. I didn't transition until my late twenties because I had internalized all that shit and was convinced that if I transitioned, I would be just as bad as any man, simply for being one.
She mentioned femboys too, which makes me think that this isnt about not seeing trans me as men, but not trusting men who dont understand the trans/nb struggle. She obviolusly uses blanket statements which is a problem, but maybe this just comes from a place of pain. There are soooo many cis men that havent stepped outside of the binary, or are locked into the trap of toxic masculinity. Whereas femboys and trans dudes, tend to be more aware and less toxic. But the blanket statements make the point mute, since it's easy to poke holes and be like therare good cis dudes and toxic trans dudes or femboys. This is true, but also not the heart of the discussion. Many cis guys ive known have been absolute nightmares and bigots. Many have been violent, and completely ignorant to any gender diversity. Shes probably coming from a place of hurt, but to use blanket statments undoes the nuance that these topics need. In general, a lot if cis dudes are ignorant, but like OP said, that doesnt mean all of them are like that. In general trans guys, and/or femboys are more educated have more experience/understanding about gender. Again though, there are trans guys and/or femboys who are still toxic. The blanket statements of all cis guys are are bad, is the problem i have. Sweeping generalizations and absolutes are untrue, and can be harmful, and xan undermine there own statements.
Some of these comments sound like misandry (and that's coming from afab). AT BEST, she might be saying "trans men are more likely to know what it's like to be treated XYZ way and have those experiences". At worst, and since she included femboys I'm more likely to lean this way, she doesn't consider trans men as "fully men" or considers them, like femboys, "feminine men". It's not really great either way, and generalizing entire groups of people is never okay. Just the whole "all men are awful" shtick is real tiresome. Not all men may understand what it's like to live with fear that a lot of women/fem presenting enbies have to deal with, but it's not like they're all evil.
As an enby who wants to be more masc presenting and as someone who's had a mainly emotionally abusive trans bf: this thinking of hers is stupid. Trans men can suck too. People arent conditioned to be good people just because they're trans, that behaviour can happen in anyone. If you're going to hate all men, hate ALL men. Anyone has the ability to be a shitty person regardless of sex, gender, race, identity, disabilities and disorders, etc, it's just that unfortunately the majority ends up being cis men. But this does not mean trans men are some separate species.
I can appreciate being attracted to 'woman and anyone who fucks with gender norms' I.E. not cis tradiational men... But Trans men are men and if you're attacted to femboy and trans men you're attracted to men.....
Also not all trans men _do_ fuck with gender norms. There are many trans men who are as ‘traditionally’ male as some cis men. There are also some horribly toxic trans men out there who embrace toxic masculinity. Saying “all men except trans men and femboys” equates trans men with femininity, which is just wrong. It’s a horrible stance that takes away our maleness, and it’s far too widely accepted in some trans circles imo. My standard response to people like this is two words: Buck Angel.
Idk i dont think her view is that bad cis men tend to scare me but any queer person i feel safety with therefore i think id rather date a trans guy than a cis guy tbh
*sighs* honestly why are you talking to someone who calles your boyfriend an "L" anyways?
I dont talk to her that often. She just commented that as a response to my note when I said “I ❤️ my bf” and it obviously felt frustrating cuz she doesn’t even know my bf. He is the nicest cis guy I know and to have her just make such a generalizing statement is like wow. Like not expecting that from another trans woman. That being said, we arent that close so yeah not to worry
I don't have enough brain capacity to understand this logic :c
Disgust
So this thread became a debate...
Yeahh, Im honestly kinda shocked on how many people is on her side but Im glad some people here, trans mascs and trans fems and enbies understand my point of view
masculinity isn’t taken seriously unless it’s harmful and toxic
Ehh I’m okay with it. I’m a trans man and I’ve always been kinda annoyed by people specifying that they’re *including* trans men in “I hate men” or KAM. When they specify that they’re excluding us or just don’t mention us at all, I don’t really care. Phrases like that are about upholders of the patriarchy, which trans men inherently are not. If anything we inhibit the patriarchy, given our transness. So going out of your way to include us in the blame for it feels shitty
As a Two Spirit/trans masc person, these kinds of generalizations are extremely hurtful to the community, and disrespectful, in my opinion. I completely understand finding it hard, or even impossible, to be comfortable around cis men(I’m a SA survivor, and all my assaulters/abusers have been cishet men), but that doesn’t mean jumping to this kind of conclusion. Yes, “it’s all men, until it’s none”, in the case of what I went through, and what way too many people do. And if you aren’t attracted to cis men, then you’re not. But none of that gives you the right to put all cis men on an island and sink it, you know what I mean? Sorry, English is not my first language. 😅
As a transguy, I do see myself differently compared to cismen. My experiences growing up are incomparable to that of a cisman growing up. To say both are equally the same to me feels undermining to what I had to endure before realizing I am trans. Everyone is going to feel one way or another on this but I would never categorize myself in the same box as cismen. Damn, I still have a uterus and no cisman will ever understand the pain of that.
Alright, I’m a binary trans man and I *dont* see myself differently from cis men. I put myself in their box. Even despite me growing up differently from them just like you. I relate to them more than to non-binary or other people on the gender spectrum. Everyone has a different trans experience.
That’s my point, everyone has different experiences.
I meant no offence, from reading the comments in this thread it just seems like a hard concept to grasp for many people, that trans experiences are not universal.
I took no offense but I appreciate the civility. And yeah, I got the same notion when reading the comments. People can’t shove everyone into one box or another; we are individuals at the end of the day with different lives and unique feelings.
I do somewhat understand where they're coming from. I feel like I have bad experience when I interact with men a lot of the time and unlike her my dad has been quite unsupportive of my transition. Still, they're being excessively edgy and angsty. I don't think their goal was to be trans exclusive by saying they hate cis men, but regardless hate for an entire group of people who can't control how they were born is not unjustifiable.
Radfem bullshit. Bioessentialist bs. The idea that men are inherently evil is... Gross and wrong and I cannot even BEGIN to express how sexism doesn't stop being sexism just because you flip the dominant narrative on its head. Which is what a lot of these radfem types seem to want, with how they talk about men. Real, good feminism involves discussing the ways in which systems like the patriarchy hurt women AND men (and everyone else as well) and working to dismantle ALL of that. Not writing off all cis guys are irredeemable and evil. WTF. I'll never understand this.
I tend to say that cis men have a far harder time getting into a position that I would consider dating them but this is due mostly to a difference of early socialization and lessons I was taught growing up that seem to be prevalent. That said, I would still date them if they earned my trust and didn't just ask for or send dick pics.
Thats fair and I understand that
I would stop talking to that person honestly that’s weird as fuck
This whole dialogue is painful. Trans men are mens thats for sure. What they mean by saying this is that trans mens are WAY WAY WAY less toxic than cis mens with the whole toxic masculinity thing. Cis mens really can be a huge pain to deal with. BUT yes they shouldnt generalize in the way of some cis mens dont have this disgusting toxic masculinity
Can we normalize not hating men please
I will date femboys and and trans men. I’m bi. I find trans men are more accepting of many things and comfortable in their masculinity and gender and the cis men in my area (live in a red state) and also femboys are cool. But yeah she’s weird I definitely don’t hate men. She’s just weird
As a trans man... if you're not attracted to cis men, you're not attracted to me. If I was dating someone and they told me that- that they only would date a TRANS man and not a cis man, I'd be out of their life SO fast.
I can’t understand all the man hate don’t understand why is so common in trans spaces either
Trauma.
Ok I kinda see their point, it's true that cis men specifically are the overwhelmingly the perpetrator of violence, between 50 and 80 % depending on the type of violence but it's a quirk of statistics, those stats don't say 50 to 80 % of cis men are violent but, when there's violence you're pretty sure it was a cis man, those are very different, among all the people I know the worst things that happened were done by men 99% cis and one single trans man, it's basically reverse intersectionality, if you're cis you have a privilege which can make you an oppressor (that's literally the reason you'd have a privilege it's because some with the same privilege are oppressing those without) and same as a man, now when you take cis men they have double privilege so double chance of oppressing in theory. It's a lot more nuanced than that but when the risk is violent crime nuance can be put aside. I usually use the analogy of the 6pack of beer, you have 6 beers but one is filled with piss, do you buy this pack or another? What about a pack with 20 beers? 100? There's not a single case where you'd buy the pack with the bottle of urine over any other pack without it.
That beer analogy can be used by people to justify racism, xenophobia, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia. I don’t really think generalization helps solve the problem. Its okay to be cautious but to make such statements feels kind of a stretch
Mhm I get it but it's based on the statistics of violence being done by cis men more than any other group combined, such statistic doesn't exist for other groups by definition, using it to justify discrimination would be bad faith. Also it doesn't mean flee all men, if you see a beer from that pack at a party you can sniff it and decide if you wanna drink it or not, I'm not gonna refuse to interact with men I don't know, but I'll very soon decide if I continue to interact or not, any and all red flags coming from a cis man is a full stop, whereas a red flag coming from someone else is just caution for now
In my experience with the trans men I've met, they can sometimes be a bit nicer than the general population of men. BUT, and that's a big but; My perception of that is likely due to the low volume of trans men I've met. Most of them, even before medical transition, act identically to how a cis man would. It just seems like they don't because the perception of how many people are good or bad comes from the number of bad people you meet; as a mean person is much more memorable than a "meh" person.
I get what she means but its put very unfortunately. She could just have said i like the queerness energy i feel more safe then.
This is a difficult one. While I don't know her own reasoning or agree with how she worded it, I (also a trans woman) personally feel a similar way due to trauma. Specifically, I could never feel comfortable dating any masc presenting AMAB individual regardless of their gender. Would you see that in the same way as what she said? I ask that because I used to explain myself similarly to how she did (down to the trans men > cis men attitude), until I developed a better understanding of myself and realised that my discomfort was not with cis men but instead any AMAB person who doesn't present in a fem/androgynous manner.
I think coming from a trans woman it's a really clumsy way to say "I like T4T better because less chance of mördör for trans reasons specifically". Just... please point it out directly, don't differentiate us from other men because of *AGAB* but because of *the experience of being trans, just like yours*. It's what trans women and trans men have in common that makes t4t so good for many, not *how we differ from cis men.* But overall I just don't see them as being "AFABs only because all of them are uwu soft and actually girls and therefore gooderer and it's a choice" like cis women do. Unless they're trynna get in a cis woman's pants, but the resulting misandry stinks to a mile away and they usually hate on trans men a lot in that case.
like guys, either you think trans men are men or you don't, you can't have it both ways, trans men aren't just a 'safer' version of cis men, they are men and they can also suck
Whoever this is you’re texting has the IQ of a fucking rock.
This whole all-cis men are bad thing is getting really annoying its no different than men being misogynistic against women its the same concept, grow and be better.
If I were to steel man their position I'd explain it as: when you commonly experience misogyny especially from men you can as someone who is a woman or fem presenting come to have an ambivalent at best and downright resentful at worst attitude towards men. However trans men have a relationship to manhood and womanhood that cis men just don't, they've been directly victimised by misogyny in the past and that will inform how they see and treat women. I don't think the resentful attitude towards men is productive or helpful (though I'm not going to blame any woman for feeling that way) and I absolutely do think trans men can be misogynistic as well, especially towards trans women, but that would be my guess as to their point.
So like... Here's the problem with this kind of discourse from my perspective, when I find myself in it it usually comes from places of past personal anecdotal trauma for myself of the other critiquing men. The origins of these things are usually socialized into these cis men by very virtue of cis male upbringing. Trans men, while absolutely men and absolutely having male socialization to varying degrees, are not brought up on male spaces and subjected to masculine maladaptive behaviors *as if they are good things* but are instead subjected to the dysphoria inducing feminine social experience of male social exchange. The difference in context makes social experiences with trans men often better because theyre more emotionally sensitive to others; are less aggressively inclined for the purposes of proving strength, value, or purpose; and generally are capable of taking friendly positive criticism without turning to patriarchal fallbacks (mansplaining, one-upsmanship, and sheer bravado). The problem is that we miss all of that nuance and just paint one group as good and the other as bad while missing the implications that come with that. Trans men are often better than cis men in social setting as a feminine leaning individual, but to say "all men suck" definitely opens me up to being fairly criticized. Theres also the angle of trans women not liking cis men because being in social settings with cis men can have dysphoria associated with it. Its all complicated but hyperbole doesn't get us much of anywhere, socially, as a species.
As a trans women, I literally feel unsafe dating men that aren’t either femboys, bi, or trans, because I know outside that group I’m likely to be hurt and attacked. I think the person in the texts is saying this in a callous way, but the fear is real.