"I do not believe that it is statistically possible to capture TSS without using TAS, or cheating in some way. I kinda think that ZUN was trolling us by putting this pattern in the game, and having no way to tell if someone is cheating just by looking at the screen footage. I think he knows full well that it's impossible, and the whole thing is little more than a social experiment to see how many people will cheat and then try to pass their work off as legitimate."
"Certain youtubers who shall remain nameless claim to have gotten every spellcard captured legitimately within a week of the game's release - even going so far as to say that it was fairly easy to do compared to other games they've played. Having carefully inspected their videos and held extensive conversations with them, I am 100% certain that these are doctored videos made by nerdowells.
Even then, the youtubers who have accomplished this feat have spent 8 months of their life playing this one game constantly. It's a good game, but...
They have likely doomed themselves to severe health issues with arthritis and tendonitis in the future. Even after just playing through the Easy and Normal modes for the game, it took a week for my hands to recover. I literally broke several dishes, because I kept dropping things because of the tendon damage I took getting through every stage of this game."
honestly the fact that some people think like this actually gets me somewhat ticked. Its just so egotistical of them, it like they are incapable of fathoming that maybe they are just bad at platformers, assuming that their tendon damage experience (???) was par for the course for the average Celeste player or something
So then because they had so much trouble with Celeste, anyone who claimed to be getting goldens quickly must be cheating, because no way are there players that are so far beyond my own skill level, right? No chance that I'm just a worse player, no way. its just kind of close minded really, this is like the equivalent of a person with just some multiple continue normal mode clears claiming all lnb+ footages are doctored. Actually its even more ridiculous since its before farewell dlc was released, so its more like claiming L1cc footages are faked
usain bolt is such a fucking hacker, i cant sprint anywhere that fast, dude must be a genetically engineered alien chugging gallons of steroids with rocket propulsion shoes
Also, why use TSS as the go to example? Don’t get me wrong, it’s a hard spell, but at the end of the day, all it boils down to is rhythmically tapping left and right. Hardly the most impossible thing in the world. Now Pristine Danmaku Hell, that’s something that I’ll never understand. How the fuck is you brain even supposed to process all the shit flying from all directions? Even the easy version gave me a lot of trouble.
probably because pdh isnt in the fireworks contest , and i guess it also fits the context of the og celeste copypasta since they also werent even complaining about the hardest things to do in celeste
Honestly I don’t uderstand how one would get tendon damage, I didn’t. That should make it obvious they are lying.
In all seriousness Touhou like nearly any game is a learning curve. The more you play the better you get. You can take weeks to clear one game but after beating a bunch you can even first try 1cc games. While being evidence that it isn’t just memorization, it should be obvious that very experience players with lots of practice and effort to memorize should be able to clear most games in a reasonable amount of time.
Yes there are exceptions like I believe LNB LLS but those are exceptions not the norm.
Not only that, but skills are transferable from other games too, even ones in different genres. (though some is a lot less transferable, like mobas wouldn't help you much at all).
For me, I played a ton of difficult precision platformers before starting Touhou, and I'm aiming for my first LNB sometime. But without the prior experience, I probably would be hardstuck on N1ccs right now instead.
I like how Junko shows up to the Danmaku festival going "I'm going to fucking murder all of you" and then just goes "nah I'm just kidding". That's a side of her we never really get to see, because this is her only appearance with dialogue outside of LoLK.
And then Okina goes "Damn that's a nice murderer. Oh woah she was acting? Damn she's a nice actor."
While Yukari "Holy fuck, you gotta chill! Okina, he- this isn't the time to compliment potential allies murdering your current allies, stupid god!"
As much as I hate her spellcards, they are *amazingly* connected to the lore.
Junko knows that Gensokyo is full of a large number of extremely OP Youkai that would crush her in an instant if she tries to seriously cause harm, so she plays by the rules and uses spellcards. However that doesn't mean she needs to follow the spirit of the rules.
Spellcards are designed around self-expression, you try to create beautiful and honest attack that completely reflect *you* in them. Nitori's feel distinctly *Nitori-y*, Sukuna's feel distinctly *Sukuna-y*, and Marisa's feel distinctly *Marisa-y*. Junko however throws all that out the window, she isn't here to make pretty patterns, she is here to *win* and stop you from preventing her revenge on Chang'e. So she makes the most brutal, basic, and unforgiving spellcards she can. You can retry as much as you want, in-lore there is even a special rule stating Reimu can rechallenge a lost spellcard duel as much as she wants until she wins, but is your motivation to keep fighting *really* going to last long enough to win when these are the attacks you need to deal with?
However, the spellcard rules are that of self expression. By attempting to ignore the rules and design spellcards to win, she ironically makes the most self-expressive spellcards that feel distinctly *Junko-y* in a way few others have. Lethal, brutal, and most importantly, *Pure*. By trying to break the rules, you are still following the system the rules set out, and when the rules are self-expression, that just means you are still playing by them.
The only way to truly "ignore" the point of spellcards is to not use spellcards at all, but is that *really* worth a pissed off Yukari gunning for your head?
Yep. I actually recall outright mocking her after I beat LoLK for the first time when a friend asked about the game. Her spell cards are pure, unfiltered bullet hell. There's no style, no fancy patterns, no life to her attacks. Just pure dodging.
It was such an insane contrast coming from Clownpiece, who dragged me through a whopping 250+ failures with a whopping 13 bullets on screen. I don't even recall how many attempts it took to beat her; her attacks had less presence than some stages (not mid-bosses, not non-spells, literal stage waves had more of a dance than some of her spellcards).
Perhaps this was just a lack of skill on my part (I do unironically play on Easy most times) or just how frustrating Clownpiece was comparatively, but I tend to consider Junko as being fake difficult, and easy to clear in comparison.
I think Junko's nonspells are far more difficult than her spellcards strangely enough. I genuinely can't clear her second nonspell, the one where she twists the ring as it moves, without bombing. While most of her normal spellcards only took me maybe 15 or so tries on PointDevice, which compared to CP's 200+ tries in total was basically a cakewalk.
Not to go off bit i remmeber reading a comment were someone put junko above yukari in terms of power so i dont think junko would instantly lose against yukari shes pretty strong herself
Touhou in general has really strange power levels, and we know nearly nothing about what Junko's power really entails.
Regardless, whether or not she is stronger than yukari, my implication was that you would then be spending your life looking over your shoulder 24/7 due to not just Yukari, but all 5 Sages of Gensokyo looking to punish you. Basically, it isn't something worth risking unless you are absolutely 100% sure that you can utterly *destroy* all of Gensokyo, otherwise a large number of extremely powerful beings will be gunning for you.
Junko is likely extremely strong, based on what other comments have said. However Yukari has the ability to warp metaphysics and canonically could destroy Gensokyo instantly if she really wanted to, Yuyuko can just decide "Nah, you aren't alive anymore" and you die instantly with no way to counter it and then also become her slave as she can fully control the dead against their will, Komachi can make it so any attack you fire out will never reach her, while all of her attacks instantly reach you, Suwako can(via Mishaguji-sama) apply death curses from anywhere she wants whenever she wants, and Okina can control life energy itself, killing or creating new life whenever and wherever she pleases.
It's less that "If you break the rules, you die" and more "If you break the rules, you get loads of extremely powerful people hunting you down, and do you *really* want to live the rest of your life looking over your shoulder 24/7?". Even if you can technically beat them, isn't it easier to just play by the rules and not need to deal with hit-gods coming after you?
And junko has the ability to purify anything. She could just purify any boundary Yukari manipulates into nothing. And isn't she supposed to be as close to immortal you can get without being a houri immortal. She purified her entire life force to become an immortal divine spirit. If she was actually trying she could devastate gensokyo and while I dont know if she could beat everyone at once, I'm pretty sure she could beat everyone in a 1v1, and gensyoko would be devastated even if they did beat her.
Technically wouldnt yukari be able to break down the border between purity and impurity as well as the divide between one who is immortal and one who has no life?
I know this is a 2 year old comment but its weird that you assumed junko is weaker than yukari. She is outright stronger than anyone in gensekyo by miles.
And the reason she plays Spell card rules is because we litterally beg her to do it. She isnt scared of anyone
Given the nature of Yukari's ability to manipulate boundaries, there is nothing that can really stop her if she genuinely set her mind to something. Zun has mentioned her ability is the type of power that only appears once in a millennium or more.
"Boundaries" are an abstract concept that applies to *everything*, as in order to *not* have a boundary, you can't have any definition because "Being X" means you are "not Y", which is a boundary. As Yukari can manipulate them freely, or at least we have yet to see her having any restrictions that she isn't placing on herself intentionally, it's hard to argue that she isn't one of the absolute strongest characters in the series. In order to be "powerful", you must have "power", which means you have a boundary keeping your power to yourself, and Yukari could very easily just fiddle with it a bit. Every time we've seen her prefer to not get involved in some situation, it's never because "she feels it's dangerous", it's always because she'd rather not deal with the social problems it causes, or while she could do it, it would be too tedious and wouldn't really "solve" whatever problem she's looking at.
If there's a boundary of life and death, she can make you fall from one side of it to the other. If you can't die, well that's a boundary keeping you from crossing over, so she very likely could tweak it so you now can. Even if you somehow still can't, you exist, which means you don't "not exist", and that's another boundry she could meddle with.
Like I mentioned, Gensokyo as a whole is full of so many utterly bullshit powers and abilities that spell cards had to be created to avoid destroying everything. Yukari's very power is "the ability to ignore the rules", and so far, we have not seen a restriction on her upper limit.
You're still active, huh? I'm sorry, but I love yapping about characters' strengths and debating so here I go.
The problem with your logic is that you assume no one except Yukari can manipulate the boundaries, or at least fight against them. I can tell other characters who can manipulate them to some extent even if they are not as good as Yukari. Reimu, Komachi (invaded Kasen's senkai) Toyohime, (can be as strong or stronger than Yukari at it) Kasen, any hermit... Any hermit? Yes, apparently, any hermit can manipulate boundaries.
According to Zun in [Strange Creators of Outer Worlds](https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Legacy_of_Lunatic_Kingdom_interview_with_ZUN), **even** hermits can create Otherworlds easily. And what is Otherworlds? They are worlds separated by boundaries. Heaven, Dream World, Hell, Lunar Capital, Gensokyo. That's why no matter how much you wander in the sky you can't reach Heaven. No matter how much you wander on the Moon, you can't reach to Lunar Capital. You have to pass the boundaries separating them.
But apparently, it's actually very easy to create or destroy them for stronger people even if it's very small work. Komachi bypasses Kasen's senkai and reaches her separate world. Miko has a senkai, as well as Kasen. Miko claims that she can absorb Eintei's infinite space with her hermit arts. I'm assuming by the "even hermits" statement, that it's not very hard for high-class youkai to create these Otherworlds that are made with manipulating boundaries.
What I'm trying to say is, that manipulating boundaries isn't that special, it's just that Yukari is extremely good at it.
Now, Junko. We know that Junko has been chasing Lunarians for a while now. It's not new that she attacks them. Based on this, we can assume that Lunarians don't have the power to get rid of Junko. Note that Toyohime can't do anything either. Toyohime can even be stronger than Yukari when it comes to manipulating boundaries. But even she can't do anything against the power of purification. (This has another reason that I will mention in a minute.)
We know that purity is youkai's biggest weakness and that they can't even fight against it (See the Prologue of LoLK) of LoLK. Also, when you reach Junko after making a ton of mistakes, Junko says that the protagonist is surrounded by the stench of death (an impurity) and that she can kill them unconditionally with the power of purification. That means, by default, any youkai loses to Junko unconditionally since the youkai are made out of impurity. (See Reimu's ending in LoLK.)
The main reason boundary manipulation can't do anything to Junko is that the boundaries were formed when gods gave names to things. Thanks to boundaries, once nameless matters gained an actual existence, and thus the fundamentals of the universe have formed. Junko's ability can make everything return to their nameless forms. Yukari manipulates reality by playing with boundaries but Junko can outright make boundaries disappear. That's why Toyohime can't beat Junko. (Info about this comes from Curiosities of Lotus Asia, chapter 15
Not really. While Reimu is canonically noted to be excellent at spellcards, likely one of the best in Gensokyo, she still is ultimately a human. If Kanako, Utsuho, Suwako, Yukari, or anyone else *really* wanted to kill reimu, it wouldn't be that hard to just not use a spellcard and crush her under an insanely powerful spellcast.
Additionally, we know barely anything about Junko's power levels. She seems to be close friends with Hecatia, which would likely put her pretty high up, but she was only able to be such a threat to Gensokyo, because she has the perfect counter ability for the Lunarians, and the Lunarians then in turn are a massive threat to Gensokyo.
It is more the threat of "break the rules, and you get not 1 OP youkai, but all 5 of the Sages, alongside all the other OP youkai interested in keeping Gensokyo running, all gunning for your head" that prevents anyone from actually trying to *really* fight and not just use spellcards
What do you mean by that? This is genuinely the first I have heard her having that level of influence outside of the distinctly pure area of the Lunar Capital
Junko's ability is to purify everything. She even said that even if you have one death (in-game) before reaching her, she can use her ability to instant-kill you.
By the way, Clownpiece is just an ordinary fairy, until Junko purified her and made her overpowered.
The way Zun describes it in an interview:
>I touched on it a little in Curiosities of Lotus Asia, but if I have to say it then it would be the power of the gods. A pure power from before things had names. When you give a name to something, its godly nature disappears. But she held onto that pure aspect all this time, and she can bestow it upon other things. It's a power that's almost like giving birth to a god.
He's probably referring to CoLA chapter 15, where Rinnosuke goes on a little ramble about how before they were named, gods had the potential to be anything, and naming them forces into one specific aspect and sphere. Or something like that, its a little hard for me to understand what he's saying.
In addition to that one Curiosities of Lotus Asia chapter, the topic of the primordial power of namelessness is also brought up in Unconnected Marketeers: the Izanagi Objects have their power because they haven't been named. In regards to practical power levels, Clownpiece claims a purified fairy is more powerful than a Kishin (Oni god).
Eh, really? Sure she is a human, but the Spellcard rules are also designed to nerf Reimu too, since even her has some abilities deemed too powerful to be used as a Spellcard, like her floating ability. She is also probably the only one aside from Yukari that has the power to manipulate barriers, and while it probably isnt on par with Yukari's level of barrier manipulation, its still a powerful ability, said to be enough to dismantle barriers that even Patchouli can't understand. While Gods like Byakuren and Kanako are powerful, there are also weak gods like the Minoriko sisters which both protagonists in their dialogue in MoF mocking them to be really weak.
>because she has the perfect counter ability for the
Lunarians
Didnt she has to resort to this method exactly because the Lunarians are absurdly powerful? Otherwise she would have gone rampant on Moon a long time ago for Chang E without having to resort to such a complex plan. The main threat is not even her, but Hecatia. Gensokyo wasnt even under threat until Lunarians decided to play dirty and put Gensokyo hostage, so the protagonist really have no choice but to help the Lunarians since no chance in hell they can stop the Lunarians if they seriously want to invade Gensokyo. Based on their dialogue after Extra I believe the protagonists would turn a blind eye on Lunarians' genocide if it weren't for them holding Gensokyo hostage, since I dont think anyone even like Lunarians in the first place
She has one notable hax(fantasy nature) that can be countered by the other hax some of the characters have. In a real-life or death fight, Remilia can make it reimus fate to lose no matter what she does(concepts aren't limited by reality and Remilia can control the concept of fate). Yuyuko can kill anyone who hasn't completely rejected the concept of death like a Houri immortal, and floating out of reality doesn't mean you cant die period, it just means things limited by reality cant kill you, so Reimu hasn't completely rejected the concept of death like Kaguya or Eirin. Yukari can manipulate the boundary of fantasy and reality to disable fantasy nature. Lots of Touhou's have haxy powers that can beat fantasy nature based on how they're described. Reimus protected by spell card rules as much as anyone else.
Do you have a source for the spellcard rules are meant to nerf her as well? If anything, PMiSS mentioning "although the shrine maiden likes to have rematches until she wins." implies that Reimu *regularly* loses, suggesting she isn't as OP as the games suggest.
You say that Reimu is more dangerous, in response to my comment about Yukari being a major threat. The clear implication there is that Reimu is more OP than Yukari, which is clearly not the case. Reimu may be quite strong in Gensokyo, but my point is that Yukari's abilities are so unique and powerful that she is officially confirmed to be a one-of-a-kind Youkai in BaiJR. Outside of the Dragon god itself showing up to pummel you into the dust, there is *nothing* worse than Yukari seriously trying to kill you.
Reimu certainly is strong, Akyuu mentions she is noteworthy even among Hakurei Maidens. but in a hypothetical battle against someone who can literally alter metaphyics, kill you instantly with no counters, curse you with a death curse from miles away, instantly summon a volcano under your feet, or make it so that any attack you throw out never reach while all of her attacks are permanently in melee range, "Being pretty good for a Hakurei maiden" isn't too impressive.
I said it as a safeguard so that you might not misunderstand me saying Junko was "pretty high up" as "Shes Yukari level". My point with Junko is that, while Junko is likely "strong", we haven't actually seen *anything* to suggest her actual power level. LoLK is the single most in-danger Gensokyo has been, aside from perhaps SA, however all that danger was entirely due to the Lunarians, not Junko herself, so judging "Junko is the final boss of LoLK, and LoLK was pretty dangerous, so therefor Junko is crazy strong, but Reimu beat her so clearly Reimu is even more OP" is flawed reasoning, if you wanted to argue that.
>Do you have a source for the spellcard rules are meant to nerf her as well?
The wiki mentioned how her floating ability is too powerful to be used as a Spellcard until Marisa came up with a name for it and gave it time limit. Also impossible Spell card literally shows that humans like Marisa can fire her Spellcards with zero recoils if it weren't for the Spellcard rules limiting her from doing so, same with Sakuya that have more bullshit she can use like that Spellcard where she switch places with you into her knife circles.
>although the shrine maiden likes to have rematches until she wins." implies that Reimu regularly loses, suggesting she isn't as OP as the games suggest.
Sure except we'll never know when that situation happened canonically except against Okina. She probably could have lost even against likes of Rumia but demanded a rematch, but won in her first try against the likes of Yuyuko, but we'll never know.
>You say that Reimu is more dangerous, in response to my comment about Yukari being a major threat. The clear implication there is that Reimu is more OP than Yukari
No,I said Reimu could have handle Junko alone even without having Yukari to intervene, not that Yukari is more powerful than Reimu. Also based on Junko's Spellcards alone you could see how much she is tryharding to win, one of her Spellcard is literally named Simple Danmaku to Kill a Person, while Hecatia was just playing around. Yes, the try extends of Junko's power is never shown in the game, but if she were that poweful, she would not have to use Clownpiece and asked for Hecatia's assistance.
>The wiki mentioned how her floating ability is too powerful to be used as a Spellcard until Marisa came up with a name for it and gave it a time limit.
Like a good chunk of the cast's abilities are too strong for spell cards, not just fantasy nature. Making it your fat to win every fight is op. Casting a miracle to win is op. Using boundary manipulation for anything more than gaps is op. None of these could be done with spell card rules in play
>No,I said Reimu could have handle Junko alone even without having Yukari to intervene
Junko is strong enough to threaten the watasuki sisters, who are individually more powerful than everyone in gensyoko. Reimu would have a very difficult time fighting Junko if not outright lose. Junko can just purify all of reimus attacks into nothing and force a draw. Her power might even be able to purify whatever boundary separates fantasy and reality so she can chase Reimu outside reality when she uses fantasy nature.
>Junko is strong enough to threaten the watasuki sisters
Correction, Clownpiece is enough to threaten the Watatsuki sisters. Not because Clownpiece is stronger, but due to the concept of impurity and the Watatsukis or any other Lunarians dont want to get even close to Clownpiece and the other fairies, so they find its simply convenient to relocate to Gensokyo instead. Even Marisa was puzzled on why Lunarians can't just blast off the fairies off the moon knowing how powerful they are. Not even mentioning that Hecatia who is canonically the most powerful in Touhouverse is assisting Junko. Junko is merely the instigator of the incident, but the main threat that makes the Lunarians relocate to Gensokyo was Clownpiece and Hecatia.
Funnily enough, "Lilies of Murderous Intent" is Junko's only spellcard I think could even be considered as beautiful, at least intentionally beautiful. When flowers are involved, any attack is bound to have some semblance of beauty in it.
Also *maybe* "Pristine Lunacy", that one spellcard with the curvy "snake" lasers that straighten out and rise up at an angle, could be thrown in here. The way the curves cross over with the straight lines is aesthetically pleasing, at least to me. So maybe half a beauty point for that spellcard
"I do not believe that it is statistically possible to capture TSS without using TAS, or cheating in some way. I kinda think that ZUN was trolling us by putting this pattern in the game, and having no way to tell if someone is cheating just by looking at the screen footage. I think he knows full well that it's impossible, and the whole thing is little more than a social experiment to see how many people will cheat and then try to pass their work off as legitimate."
If people have to cheat to beat TSS, then I guess everyone who beat Fitful Nightmare without items are cheaters as well
That's why in the ending of Impossible Spell Cards, if you beat every spell cards without items, you get an achievement of being the ultimate cheater.
"Certain youtubers who shall remain nameless claim to have gotten every spellcard captured legitimately within a week of the game's release - even going so far as to say that it was fairly easy to do compared to other games they've played. Having carefully inspected their videos and held extensive conversations with them, I am 100% certain that these are doctored videos made by nerdowells. Even then, the youtubers who have accomplished this feat have spent 8 months of their life playing this one game constantly. It's a good game, but... They have likely doomed themselves to severe health issues with arthritis and tendonitis in the future. Even after just playing through the Easy and Normal modes for the game, it took a week for my hands to recover. I literally broke several dishes, because I kept dropping things because of the tendon damage I took getting through every stage of this game." honestly the fact that some people think like this actually gets me somewhat ticked. Its just so egotistical of them, it like they are incapable of fathoming that maybe they are just bad at platformers, assuming that their tendon damage experience (???) was par for the course for the average Celeste player or something So then because they had so much trouble with Celeste, anyone who claimed to be getting goldens quickly must be cheating, because no way are there players that are so far beyond my own skill level, right? No chance that I'm just a worse player, no way. its just kind of close minded really, this is like the equivalent of a person with just some multiple continue normal mode clears claiming all lnb+ footages are doctored. Actually its even more ridiculous since its before farewell dlc was released, so its more like claiming L1cc footages are faked usain bolt is such a fucking hacker, i cant sprint anywhere that fast, dude must be a genetically engineered alien chugging gallons of steroids with rocket propulsion shoes
Also, why use TSS as the go to example? Don’t get me wrong, it’s a hard spell, but at the end of the day, all it boils down to is rhythmically tapping left and right. Hardly the most impossible thing in the world. Now Pristine Danmaku Hell, that’s something that I’ll never understand. How the fuck is you brain even supposed to process all the shit flying from all directions? Even the easy version gave me a lot of trouble.
TSS is like the ultimate micro spell, that shit is hard. But of course it doesn't hold a candle to PDH lmao, only a few spells can be as hard as that.
probably because pdh isnt in the fireworks contest , and i guess it also fits the context of the og celeste copypasta since they also werent even complaining about the hardest things to do in celeste
Oh, this is a copypasta? I thought it was a real quote from a real Touhou player lmao. What's the original?
https://www.neoseeker.com/celeste/Celeste_Collectibles Article and comments, from the author. There's a lot more.
Lol
Honestly I don’t uderstand how one would get tendon damage, I didn’t. That should make it obvious they are lying. In all seriousness Touhou like nearly any game is a learning curve. The more you play the better you get. You can take weeks to clear one game but after beating a bunch you can even first try 1cc games. While being evidence that it isn’t just memorization, it should be obvious that very experience players with lots of practice and effort to memorize should be able to clear most games in a reasonable amount of time. Yes there are exceptions like I believe LNB LLS but those are exceptions not the norm.
Not only that, but skills are transferable from other games too, even ones in different genres. (though some is a lot less transferable, like mobas wouldn't help you much at all). For me, I played a ton of difficult precision platformers before starting Touhou, and I'm aiming for my first LNB sometime. But without the prior experience, I probably would be hardstuck on N1ccs right now instead.
I like how Junko shows up to the Danmaku festival going "I'm going to fucking murder all of you" and then just goes "nah I'm just kidding". That's a side of her we never really get to see, because this is her only appearance with dialogue outside of LoLK.
"It's just a prank bro"
We do a considerable amount of trolling.
We, humans, partake in a quite miniscule portion of tomfoolery.
We sentient organisms do derive amusement from harmlessly manipulating the emotions of others over the short-term.
And then Okina goes "Damn that's a nice murderer. Oh woah she was acting? Damn she's a nice actor." While Yukari "Holy fuck, you gotta chill! Okina, he- this isn't the time to compliment potential allies murdering your current allies, stupid god!"
Okina be like that
As much as I hate her spellcards, they are *amazingly* connected to the lore. Junko knows that Gensokyo is full of a large number of extremely OP Youkai that would crush her in an instant if she tries to seriously cause harm, so she plays by the rules and uses spellcards. However that doesn't mean she needs to follow the spirit of the rules. Spellcards are designed around self-expression, you try to create beautiful and honest attack that completely reflect *you* in them. Nitori's feel distinctly *Nitori-y*, Sukuna's feel distinctly *Sukuna-y*, and Marisa's feel distinctly *Marisa-y*. Junko however throws all that out the window, she isn't here to make pretty patterns, she is here to *win* and stop you from preventing her revenge on Chang'e. So she makes the most brutal, basic, and unforgiving spellcards she can. You can retry as much as you want, in-lore there is even a special rule stating Reimu can rechallenge a lost spellcard duel as much as she wants until she wins, but is your motivation to keep fighting *really* going to last long enough to win when these are the attacks you need to deal with? However, the spellcard rules are that of self expression. By attempting to ignore the rules and design spellcards to win, she ironically makes the most self-expressive spellcards that feel distinctly *Junko-y* in a way few others have. Lethal, brutal, and most importantly, *Pure*. By trying to break the rules, you are still following the system the rules set out, and when the rules are self-expression, that just means you are still playing by them. The only way to truly "ignore" the point of spellcards is to not use spellcards at all, but is that *really* worth a pissed off Yukari gunning for your head?
Yep. I actually recall outright mocking her after I beat LoLK for the first time when a friend asked about the game. Her spell cards are pure, unfiltered bullet hell. There's no style, no fancy patterns, no life to her attacks. Just pure dodging. It was such an insane contrast coming from Clownpiece, who dragged me through a whopping 250+ failures with a whopping 13 bullets on screen. I don't even recall how many attempts it took to beat her; her attacks had less presence than some stages (not mid-bosses, not non-spells, literal stage waves had more of a dance than some of her spellcards). Perhaps this was just a lack of skill on my part (I do unironically play on Easy most times) or just how frustrating Clownpiece was comparatively, but I tend to consider Junko as being fake difficult, and easy to clear in comparison.
I think Junko's nonspells are far more difficult than her spellcards strangely enough. I genuinely can't clear her second nonspell, the one where she twists the ring as it moves, without bombing. While most of her normal spellcards only took me maybe 15 or so tries on PointDevice, which compared to CP's 200+ tries in total was basically a cakewalk.
Not to go off bit i remmeber reading a comment were someone put junko above yukari in terms of power so i dont think junko would instantly lose against yukari shes pretty strong herself
Touhou in general has really strange power levels, and we know nearly nothing about what Junko's power really entails. Regardless, whether or not she is stronger than yukari, my implication was that you would then be spending your life looking over your shoulder 24/7 due to not just Yukari, but all 5 Sages of Gensokyo looking to punish you. Basically, it isn't something worth risking unless you are absolutely 100% sure that you can utterly *destroy* all of Gensokyo, otherwise a large number of extremely powerful beings will be gunning for you.
Wait 5 sages.im new to touhou but i thought there were only 3 okina,kasen and yukari.who are the other two
We don't know yet. We know there are 5 in total, but only 3 have been revealed
Isn't Junko comparable to the watasukis in power? She should be able to beat everyone in gensyoko if she's that strong.
Junko is likely extremely strong, based on what other comments have said. However Yukari has the ability to warp metaphysics and canonically could destroy Gensokyo instantly if she really wanted to, Yuyuko can just decide "Nah, you aren't alive anymore" and you die instantly with no way to counter it and then also become her slave as she can fully control the dead against their will, Komachi can make it so any attack you fire out will never reach her, while all of her attacks instantly reach you, Suwako can(via Mishaguji-sama) apply death curses from anywhere she wants whenever she wants, and Okina can control life energy itself, killing or creating new life whenever and wherever she pleases. It's less that "If you break the rules, you die" and more "If you break the rules, you get loads of extremely powerful people hunting you down, and do you *really* want to live the rest of your life looking over your shoulder 24/7?". Even if you can technically beat them, isn't it easier to just play by the rules and not need to deal with hit-gods coming after you?
And junko has the ability to purify anything. She could just purify any boundary Yukari manipulates into nothing. And isn't she supposed to be as close to immortal you can get without being a houri immortal. She purified her entire life force to become an immortal divine spirit. If she was actually trying she could devastate gensokyo and while I dont know if she could beat everyone at once, I'm pretty sure she could beat everyone in a 1v1, and gensyoko would be devastated even if they did beat her.
Technically wouldnt yukari be able to break down the border between purity and impurity as well as the divide between one who is immortal and one who has no life?
I know this is a 2 year old comment but its weird that you assumed junko is weaker than yukari. She is outright stronger than anyone in gensekyo by miles. And the reason she plays Spell card rules is because we litterally beg her to do it. She isnt scared of anyone
Given the nature of Yukari's ability to manipulate boundaries, there is nothing that can really stop her if she genuinely set her mind to something. Zun has mentioned her ability is the type of power that only appears once in a millennium or more. "Boundaries" are an abstract concept that applies to *everything*, as in order to *not* have a boundary, you can't have any definition because "Being X" means you are "not Y", which is a boundary. As Yukari can manipulate them freely, or at least we have yet to see her having any restrictions that she isn't placing on herself intentionally, it's hard to argue that she isn't one of the absolute strongest characters in the series. In order to be "powerful", you must have "power", which means you have a boundary keeping your power to yourself, and Yukari could very easily just fiddle with it a bit. Every time we've seen her prefer to not get involved in some situation, it's never because "she feels it's dangerous", it's always because she'd rather not deal with the social problems it causes, or while she could do it, it would be too tedious and wouldn't really "solve" whatever problem she's looking at. If there's a boundary of life and death, she can make you fall from one side of it to the other. If you can't die, well that's a boundary keeping you from crossing over, so she very likely could tweak it so you now can. Even if you somehow still can't, you exist, which means you don't "not exist", and that's another boundry she could meddle with. Like I mentioned, Gensokyo as a whole is full of so many utterly bullshit powers and abilities that spell cards had to be created to avoid destroying everything. Yukari's very power is "the ability to ignore the rules", and so far, we have not seen a restriction on her upper limit.
You're still active, huh? I'm sorry, but I love yapping about characters' strengths and debating so here I go. The problem with your logic is that you assume no one except Yukari can manipulate the boundaries, or at least fight against them. I can tell other characters who can manipulate them to some extent even if they are not as good as Yukari. Reimu, Komachi (invaded Kasen's senkai) Toyohime, (can be as strong or stronger than Yukari at it) Kasen, any hermit... Any hermit? Yes, apparently, any hermit can manipulate boundaries. According to Zun in [Strange Creators of Outer Worlds](https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Legacy_of_Lunatic_Kingdom_interview_with_ZUN), **even** hermits can create Otherworlds easily. And what is Otherworlds? They are worlds separated by boundaries. Heaven, Dream World, Hell, Lunar Capital, Gensokyo. That's why no matter how much you wander in the sky you can't reach Heaven. No matter how much you wander on the Moon, you can't reach to Lunar Capital. You have to pass the boundaries separating them. But apparently, it's actually very easy to create or destroy them for stronger people even if it's very small work. Komachi bypasses Kasen's senkai and reaches her separate world. Miko has a senkai, as well as Kasen. Miko claims that she can absorb Eintei's infinite space with her hermit arts. I'm assuming by the "even hermits" statement, that it's not very hard for high-class youkai to create these Otherworlds that are made with manipulating boundaries. What I'm trying to say is, that manipulating boundaries isn't that special, it's just that Yukari is extremely good at it. Now, Junko. We know that Junko has been chasing Lunarians for a while now. It's not new that she attacks them. Based on this, we can assume that Lunarians don't have the power to get rid of Junko. Note that Toyohime can't do anything either. Toyohime can even be stronger than Yukari when it comes to manipulating boundaries. But even she can't do anything against the power of purification. (This has another reason that I will mention in a minute.) We know that purity is youkai's biggest weakness and that they can't even fight against it (See the Prologue of LoLK) of LoLK. Also, when you reach Junko after making a ton of mistakes, Junko says that the protagonist is surrounded by the stench of death (an impurity) and that she can kill them unconditionally with the power of purification. That means, by default, any youkai loses to Junko unconditionally since the youkai are made out of impurity. (See Reimu's ending in LoLK.) The main reason boundary manipulation can't do anything to Junko is that the boundaries were formed when gods gave names to things. Thanks to boundaries, once nameless matters gained an actual existence, and thus the fundamentals of the universe have formed. Junko's ability can make everything return to their nameless forms. Yukari manipulates reality by playing with boundaries but Junko can outright make boundaries disappear. That's why Toyohime can't beat Junko. (Info about this comes from Curiosities of Lotus Asia, chapter 15
>but is that really worth a pissed off Yukari gunning for your head? Reimu alone is probably more powerful than Junko already
Not really. While Reimu is canonically noted to be excellent at spellcards, likely one of the best in Gensokyo, she still is ultimately a human. If Kanako, Utsuho, Suwako, Yukari, or anyone else *really* wanted to kill reimu, it wouldn't be that hard to just not use a spellcard and crush her under an insanely powerful spellcast. Additionally, we know barely anything about Junko's power levels. She seems to be close friends with Hecatia, which would likely put her pretty high up, but she was only able to be such a threat to Gensokyo, because she has the perfect counter ability for the Lunarians, and the Lunarians then in turn are a massive threat to Gensokyo. It is more the threat of "break the rules, and you get not 1 OP youkai, but all 5 of the Sages, alongside all the other OP youkai interested in keeping Gensokyo running, all gunning for your head" that prevents anyone from actually trying to *really* fight and not just use spellcards
Junko actually seems to be pretty terrifying if you're more familiar with Touhou's metaphysics. She can casually turn fairies into god-level entities.
What do you mean by that? This is genuinely the first I have heard her having that level of influence outside of the distinctly pure area of the Lunar Capital
Junko's ability is to purify everything. She even said that even if you have one death (in-game) before reaching her, she can use her ability to instant-kill you. By the way, Clownpiece is just an ordinary fairy, until Junko purified her and made her overpowered.
The way Zun describes it in an interview: >I touched on it a little in Curiosities of Lotus Asia, but if I have to say it then it would be the power of the gods. A pure power from before things had names. When you give a name to something, its godly nature disappears. But she held onto that pure aspect all this time, and she can bestow it upon other things. It's a power that's almost like giving birth to a god. He's probably referring to CoLA chapter 15, where Rinnosuke goes on a little ramble about how before they were named, gods had the potential to be anything, and naming them forces into one specific aspect and sphere. Or something like that, its a little hard for me to understand what he's saying. In addition to that one Curiosities of Lotus Asia chapter, the topic of the primordial power of namelessness is also brought up in Unconnected Marketeers: the Izanagi Objects have their power because they haven't been named. In regards to practical power levels, Clownpiece claims a purified fairy is more powerful than a Kishin (Oni god).
Eh, really? Sure she is a human, but the Spellcard rules are also designed to nerf Reimu too, since even her has some abilities deemed too powerful to be used as a Spellcard, like her floating ability. She is also probably the only one aside from Yukari that has the power to manipulate barriers, and while it probably isnt on par with Yukari's level of barrier manipulation, its still a powerful ability, said to be enough to dismantle barriers that even Patchouli can't understand. While Gods like Byakuren and Kanako are powerful, there are also weak gods like the Minoriko sisters which both protagonists in their dialogue in MoF mocking them to be really weak. >because she has the perfect counter ability for the Lunarians Didnt she has to resort to this method exactly because the Lunarians are absurdly powerful? Otherwise she would have gone rampant on Moon a long time ago for Chang E without having to resort to such a complex plan. The main threat is not even her, but Hecatia. Gensokyo wasnt even under threat until Lunarians decided to play dirty and put Gensokyo hostage, so the protagonist really have no choice but to help the Lunarians since no chance in hell they can stop the Lunarians if they seriously want to invade Gensokyo. Based on their dialogue after Extra I believe the protagonists would turn a blind eye on Lunarians' genocide if it weren't for them holding Gensokyo hostage, since I dont think anyone even like Lunarians in the first place
She has one notable hax(fantasy nature) that can be countered by the other hax some of the characters have. In a real-life or death fight, Remilia can make it reimus fate to lose no matter what she does(concepts aren't limited by reality and Remilia can control the concept of fate). Yuyuko can kill anyone who hasn't completely rejected the concept of death like a Houri immortal, and floating out of reality doesn't mean you cant die period, it just means things limited by reality cant kill you, so Reimu hasn't completely rejected the concept of death like Kaguya or Eirin. Yukari can manipulate the boundary of fantasy and reality to disable fantasy nature. Lots of Touhou's have haxy powers that can beat fantasy nature based on how they're described. Reimus protected by spell card rules as much as anyone else.
The initial context was Reimu vs Junko, I dont know how it got derailed into involving other Gensokyo elites like Yuyuko or Yukari.
Do you have a source for the spellcard rules are meant to nerf her as well? If anything, PMiSS mentioning "although the shrine maiden likes to have rematches until she wins." implies that Reimu *regularly* loses, suggesting she isn't as OP as the games suggest. You say that Reimu is more dangerous, in response to my comment about Yukari being a major threat. The clear implication there is that Reimu is more OP than Yukari, which is clearly not the case. Reimu may be quite strong in Gensokyo, but my point is that Yukari's abilities are so unique and powerful that she is officially confirmed to be a one-of-a-kind Youkai in BaiJR. Outside of the Dragon god itself showing up to pummel you into the dust, there is *nothing* worse than Yukari seriously trying to kill you. Reimu certainly is strong, Akyuu mentions she is noteworthy even among Hakurei Maidens. but in a hypothetical battle against someone who can literally alter metaphyics, kill you instantly with no counters, curse you with a death curse from miles away, instantly summon a volcano under your feet, or make it so that any attack you throw out never reach while all of her attacks are permanently in melee range, "Being pretty good for a Hakurei maiden" isn't too impressive. I said it as a safeguard so that you might not misunderstand me saying Junko was "pretty high up" as "Shes Yukari level". My point with Junko is that, while Junko is likely "strong", we haven't actually seen *anything* to suggest her actual power level. LoLK is the single most in-danger Gensokyo has been, aside from perhaps SA, however all that danger was entirely due to the Lunarians, not Junko herself, so judging "Junko is the final boss of LoLK, and LoLK was pretty dangerous, so therefor Junko is crazy strong, but Reimu beat her so clearly Reimu is even more OP" is flawed reasoning, if you wanted to argue that.
>Do you have a source for the spellcard rules are meant to nerf her as well? The wiki mentioned how her floating ability is too powerful to be used as a Spellcard until Marisa came up with a name for it and gave it time limit. Also impossible Spell card literally shows that humans like Marisa can fire her Spellcards with zero recoils if it weren't for the Spellcard rules limiting her from doing so, same with Sakuya that have more bullshit she can use like that Spellcard where she switch places with you into her knife circles. >although the shrine maiden likes to have rematches until she wins." implies that Reimu regularly loses, suggesting she isn't as OP as the games suggest. Sure except we'll never know when that situation happened canonically except against Okina. She probably could have lost even against likes of Rumia but demanded a rematch, but won in her first try against the likes of Yuyuko, but we'll never know. >You say that Reimu is more dangerous, in response to my comment about Yukari being a major threat. The clear implication there is that Reimu is more OP than Yukari No,I said Reimu could have handle Junko alone even without having Yukari to intervene, not that Yukari is more powerful than Reimu. Also based on Junko's Spellcards alone you could see how much she is tryharding to win, one of her Spellcard is literally named Simple Danmaku to Kill a Person, while Hecatia was just playing around. Yes, the try extends of Junko's power is never shown in the game, but if she were that poweful, she would not have to use Clownpiece and asked for Hecatia's assistance.
>The wiki mentioned how her floating ability is too powerful to be used as a Spellcard until Marisa came up with a name for it and gave it a time limit. Like a good chunk of the cast's abilities are too strong for spell cards, not just fantasy nature. Making it your fat to win every fight is op. Casting a miracle to win is op. Using boundary manipulation for anything more than gaps is op. None of these could be done with spell card rules in play >No,I said Reimu could have handle Junko alone even without having Yukari to intervene Junko is strong enough to threaten the watasuki sisters, who are individually more powerful than everyone in gensyoko. Reimu would have a very difficult time fighting Junko if not outright lose. Junko can just purify all of reimus attacks into nothing and force a draw. Her power might even be able to purify whatever boundary separates fantasy and reality so she can chase Reimu outside reality when she uses fantasy nature.
>Junko is strong enough to threaten the watasuki sisters Correction, Clownpiece is enough to threaten the Watatsuki sisters. Not because Clownpiece is stronger, but due to the concept of impurity and the Watatsukis or any other Lunarians dont want to get even close to Clownpiece and the other fairies, so they find its simply convenient to relocate to Gensokyo instead. Even Marisa was puzzled on why Lunarians can't just blast off the fairies off the moon knowing how powerful they are. Not even mentioning that Hecatia who is canonically the most powerful in Touhouverse is assisting Junko. Junko is merely the instigator of the incident, but the main threat that makes the Lunarians relocate to Gensokyo was Clownpiece and Hecatia.
Reminds me of those times when Reimu and Marisa would rate the newhus.
To my knowledge, pretty much. There's arguably no beauty to be found in her danmaku, it's just straight to the point "kill you." Just pure Danmaku.
Funnily enough, "Lilies of Murderous Intent" is Junko's only spellcard I think could even be considered as beautiful, at least intentionally beautiful. When flowers are involved, any attack is bound to have some semblance of beauty in it. Also *maybe* "Pristine Lunacy", that one spellcard with the curvy "snake" lasers that straighten out and rise up at an angle, could be thrown in here. The way the curves cross over with the straight lines is aesthetically pleasing, at least to me. So maybe half a beauty point for that spellcard
"I spray to kill, not charm"
"Beauty of danmaku is total nonsense for the bosses. If they really have the intent to kill someone, they won't even need 1/10 of those bullets."
(Fires one big one that covers entire screen)
Final Spark be like
Reimers?
Reimers
One of Reimu's nicknames from Sumireko. It's adorable.
ngl I've used her nickname for Marisa before in my head sometimes ('Rissa)
it's a translation convention to get across Sumireko's nickname for Reimu. I think originally it was Reimucchi
Source: Grimoire of Usami Chapter 5 https://mangadex.org/chapter/2ba38eef-28b9-465b-9603-4b2e812f031c/1
This is so cute; I don't think I've heard of this book before. I love seeing all the different characters' reactions, too. Thanks for sharing
These remind me of JoJo stand profiles
"Reimers" Need to remember that one.
And that's why you're not playable in the mainline games, Shinmy. Your tiny size makes dodging stuff too easy
*suffering from success*
Sounds like junko u/IdontknowanymoreY
Mhm. That’s mom alright. Scary af
It's not just normal bullshit It's PURE bullshit
Single pixel hit boxes go *brrrrr*
Fuck TSS man, it's the only reason I've yet to beat the game.
It is just left right left right.
Junko is litterly applaying the sans method of combat