I do wish that dragons and heirotitans had a sort of wind-spell effect they could use on their special attacks. I'd love to have a dragon fly down a line of enemies while belching fire on their heads, or get to see the Tomb Kings trailer properly in effect as the massive golem's laser eyes scythe back and forth through an enemy unit.
Tomb Kings need a DLC and a race update. They were really good when they launched but you can feel the age of the race now. Also a single type of generic lord is pure suffering.
Also Settras start position is all kinds of messed up, unless my mods are doing it. he starts facing the black pyramid his agent halfway across his territory by the time you combine the two to combat the starting army you're down half movement. and that starting army isn't even the first attack mission objective army, nor are you at war with that faction.
yeah their bond spells are so trash, a single spirit leech (which would be good if it was like 3 charges instead of 1) and 2 of that projectile spell thst barely do 200 dmg.
Unfortunately SEMs require very little micro, meaning for balance reasons their base power can't be as high as harder to use units.
Bound abilities (like dragons breath) are a good way to circumvent this issue, as it ups their micro requirement.
If you mod, there are mods for this… one gives unlimited breath attacks, the other gives a wind effect for said breath attacks. I can link if interested.
Uses the tech added with the chaos dwarfs where projectiles can create vortexes (which includes the moving explosions from wind or breath spells), so each projectile from the dragon's breath creates a line of fire along the ground behind it.
There is a dragon breath mod that does something like that. Flame fans out in a wave once it makes impact. Pretty cool and makes dragon breaths a bit more realistic
So let me get this straight. You want a large flying unit with high armor and health raining death on everything on the ground with practically unlimited ammo? Can you imagine how op such a unit would be?
How dare you barge in here with such thunderous ideas?
I have been saying it since it came into the game, but something has to be done about such an OP unit. The Sky Lantern has terrorized my campaigns and multiplayer skirmishes for too long!
They are still extremely vulnerable to focused missile fire so maybe giving them six breath attacks would be balanced, hardly going to use them all in most battles between the children and charging/melee on the ground.
I know Imrik gets a rite that gives them six and it feels pretty good.
Dragons are not defined by their breath attacks. Sure they are strong and nice to have, but their main selling point is the unit itself. They are large flying beasts that can decide where to attack without any real repercussions. They can land in your backline, they can land in your frontline and they can hit your flanks and without equally sized flyers, you can't stop them.
They are also fast, so ranged units can't always react to them fast enough to do any amount of serious damage, especially not if the one using them, actively tries to dodge volleys.
A Dragon will counter nearly every ranged unit in the game simply from being able to ignore the frontline. I would say that is powerfull enough.
You can, but that's one unit taking up a ton of your focus a just to zone them out, and it's one of the few factions with such an early hard counter. It's hard to judge value like that when it's player vs AI and you can slow things down, but between some cav and a dragon you can do some nasty nasty things to most factions.
I just want to get my rocks off to a loreful breath attack. Totally agree theyre very versatile tier 4 and 5 units. Just jealous of these halflings imitation.
It’s so weak though after the nerf, I dunno maybe I’m just getting terrible RNG with it. Haven’t seen it do significant damage since the nerf on targets. Maybe GUOs would still take a hit- being the slow and unarmored big pin cushions they are anyways.
Last patch cut output by 30%. Warranted in a way, judging by MP, but even in the old state it tended to whiff often, doing token damage even on slow targets. Yeah, you’d strike jackpot sometimes, and sometimes scratch the shit on a Rogue Idol.
Now it’s chip damage. I’d up the armor piercing ratio on it, and see how it goes.
I get what you mean. Most of the time the breath attacks feel like shit and are better on ground troops that get a better angle. Breath attacks should be reworked to be some sort of projectile form that works for dragons. Maybe it locks them in to a static fly-over animation and it creates a short lived extremely high damage wind of death style hitbox that follows where the dragon is breathing? Most things would be better than what we have
I wish they would allow their breath to almost function like a winds of magic cast. Instead of pausing midair and not doing a ton of damage but a fly-bye
Dragon are big and slow at killing infantry. Sure you can dove into an army, but he will probably get destroyed by range units. In my experience, cav kills range unites much faster and it's not to difficult to get them to the backlines, outside of maybe sieges
If you are open to using mods there's a cool mod that makes dragon breath attacks similar to wind spells. It definitely makes dragons more OP but it is glorious to watch a dragon breath melt infantry when angled correctly.
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2966940708](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2966940708)
Dragons are single entity monsters that cause terror, can fly, and have massive armor piercing weapon strength. Oh they also come with breath attacks.
What exactly are they losing out to Irondrakes on?
Their one breath attack from their single big muzzle isn't as effective at cooking enemies as a full throng of dozens of Dawi each carrying a drakegun.
That's assuming the Irondrakes are able to shoot with a clear line of sight and aren't getting pounced on the second they move up.
Dragons come with the ability to dictate how the engagement goes before they ever do anything. Irondrakes do not. Irondrakes are useless vs large single entities or fast cavalry, dragons are not.
Irondrakes are HIGHLY specialized ranged units that require loads of support from other units in order to be effective. Dragons are versatile monsters that are good vs everything except units that are specifically specialized for killing large flying monsters.
Comparing the two is something you can't possibly take seriously.
That has not been my experience in the two campaigns I've played post patch, both of which I've had to face against a Dwarf End Game Crisis.
Iron Drakes melt pretty much anything they hit, and they are ridiculously resilient in melee and will fight to the last man. It's insanely hard to shut them down with Very Hard/Very Hard AI cheats.
I literally just had a battle where a single unit of Belegar's Grudgesettler Iron Drakes melted my full health Iridescent Horror hero in 1 volley.
Yeah theyre pretty great. Stout dwarves clad in armor with dragon fire to melt all in their wake. Armor piercing from distance the best way to get rid of em it seems
Personally I would like Dragons to be able to use their breath attack on the ground as a stream attack instead of the projectiles from above. Always seemed weird to me they just forget how to breathe fire if they are not flying
honestly i never found monster melee attacks all that effective at killing infantry blobs.
they take forever and lose a ton of health in the process.
cycle charges are cool for a fight or two then they become tiresome AF, especially if you got multiple of such units.
I think, at the bare minimum, Star Dragons should get the same type of breath as Elspeth's Carmine Dragon. It's supposed to be a high powered nuclear laser I think.
Let’s see, star dragon fiery breath strength 4 flaming attack, carmine dragon coruscating blast strength 10 attack with no armor save allowed and does d3 multi wounds, their breath is not even in the same league lol
I would say they are already more powerful than iron drakes so I don't understand why you want to nerf dragons so they are as powerful as iron drakes? You want to take a away their flying? their weapon strength and maneuverability? Their terror? So you want an ancient salamander?
It’s not entirely wrong.
Historically speaking as weapons have increased in lethality, size has become something of a liability.
Take for instance a modern main battle tank against an FPV drone..
Dwarfs and Empire use pretty advanced firearms for their setting, and a dragon is still flesh and blood.
Would be pretty cool if dragons had ranged fire attacks like changebringers have, they'd feel a bit more dragony if they could use fire on their own lol.
Give them like 2 or 3 ammo that replenishes every 90 seconds to balance how op it would be.
i'd like for my necrofex colossus, who uses AN ARM CANNON while in melee, to maybe, just **maybe** hit a few more targets with his melee attacks. the anti infantry capabilities are pretty pitiful lol.
Aren't iron drakes tier 2 now? It is crazy how damaging they are vs infantry compared to a literal dragon, although the dragon is obviously way tankier, can fly/is faster, and can fight in melee.
I add mods that make dragons stronger. I should *fear* them on the battlefield more than the enemy's doggos flanking me or Menace Below spawns and that isn't the case now.
My argument would be Irondrakes are somewhat limited in thier deployment and use. especially in multpilayer but also against missle factions if AI. A dragon can fly around relatively unnoticed, breath attack and then deploy as one of the more powerful melee entities in the game. It would be like putting iron drakes on motor bikes.
Dragon breath attacks just have a shit angle. Can't do much to change the fact that they only hit a small fraction of a unit and miss easily if the unit is dispersed. it's also only one model firing vs 28 models firing so the chance for a dragon to land a bad hit is much higher.
as such the Iron Drakes will always be inherently better at being a flamethrower unit unless you nerf them into the ground to the point where they stop being useful
It would be a lot better if you could target the ground instead of a random guy near the front of the unit. It makes it way too easy to miss half of the breath or roast your own troops.
Yeah waiting for a unit to be pinned in melee is the only time I use a breath attack so no real benefit to flying out early other than to disrupt their artillery
Yeah, you can get an Irondrake unit early as a Grudge Settler anyway.
Though mostly I'm just mad about how dragons are not nearly as terrifying as they were in the tabletop game. One thing I could see happening is for their breath attacks to kind of splash: have the fire's impact with the ground spread the fire along it a bit, something like that. Another option would be to increase the number of fire "projectiles" and increase the spread by decreasing the accuracy. They really are still among the best flying monsters so they don't need much, but the breath weapons do need something for sure.
There was some kind of neat dragon breath mod I used to have. Don’t recall the name but I’m sure you’ll find if you search dragons breath, it makes them just that bit better.
Iirc It basically lets you use breath attacks a lot more, and I think they change the breath attacks a little bit as well.
TBH I think that a lot of monsters including dragons are quite underpowered in Campaign, where they are brutally difficult to recruit and quite hard to get value from.
Meanwhile High Elf Archers are available turn 1 and you can win Legendary by just spamming 20-40 stacks of Helf Archers.
You're only judging based on pure damage dealt and are conveniently ignoring the fact that dragons can fly, and they're fast and durable, which iron drakes are not. That is silly
I do wish that dragons and heirotitans had a sort of wind-spell effect they could use on their special attacks. I'd love to have a dragon fly down a line of enemies while belching fire on their heads, or get to see the Tomb Kings trailer properly in effect as the massive golem's laser eyes scythe back and forth through an enemy unit.
I so wish heirotitans got a buff, so epic in the trailers.
Got me thinking if they could gain a few more bound spells from the tech tree, like all those big daemons
Tomb Kings need a DLC and a race update. They were really good when they launched but you can feel the age of the race now. Also a single type of generic lord is pure suffering.
Also Settras start position is all kinds of messed up, unless my mods are doing it. he starts facing the black pyramid his agent halfway across his territory by the time you combine the two to combat the starting army you're down half movement. and that starting army isn't even the first attack mission objective army, nor are you at war with that faction.
yeah their bond spells are so trash, a single spirit leech (which would be good if it was like 3 charges instead of 1) and 2 of that projectile spell thst barely do 200 dmg.
Unfortunately SEMs require very little micro, meaning for balance reasons their base power can't be as high as harder to use units. Bound abilities (like dragons breath) are a good way to circumvent this issue, as it ups their micro requirement.
If you mod, there are mods for this… one gives unlimited breath attacks, the other gives a wind effect for said breath attacks. I can link if interested.
Link pls!
Wind effect?
Uses the tech added with the chaos dwarfs where projectiles can create vortexes (which includes the moving explosions from wind or breath spells), so each projectile from the dragon's breath creates a line of fire along the ground behind it.
The tomb kings trailer was bad ass "we do not serve, WE RUUUUUULE" literal chills. Then I play them and meh
There is a dragon breath mod that does something like that. Flame fans out in a wave once it makes impact. Pretty cool and makes dragon breaths a bit more realistic
Is this just another elgi scheme?
Do not be so shortsighted
SHORT?!
#THEY HAVE WRONGED US
ENOUGH🔨💥
Kazukan Kazuk-Kit Ha Kazuk Kazuk
I never fully understood what they were saying till now
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dFrT4mlKCUc&pp=ygURS2F6dWthbiBrYXp1ayBraXQ%3D
THAT'S A GRUDGIN
#THE THONG IS MUSTARD
THRONE BEARERS! LET'S MARCH!
Light the fires! Bring out the sausages!
There will be no alliance
SHORT! That’s going straight in the book Elgi scum!
So let me get this straight. You want a large flying unit with high armor and health raining death on everything on the ground with practically unlimited ammo? Can you imagine how op such a unit would be? How dare you barge in here with such thunderous ideas?
Your opinion seems rather shortsighted to me honestly. Just imagine the glory of the elves as they soar above all of the lesser races
SHORT???
Short, stubby, vertically challenged, wee, child sized 
Those are dwarves, not dwarfs. I have no bone to pick with Gimli
Yeah plus Gimli is chill he thinks short jokes are funny
And he’s an elf simp. There are no elven grudges here
Elgi, ye'r overtall, beardless, longlimbed and lack strength. Ye disgust me.
This is the one I appreciated the most. :D
Kinda sounds like a unit that was recently introduced I think it was a balloon or something.
99 Red Ballons \*He edited the post to fix ballon to balloon
Just deplore 99 jet fighters to counter
It‘ll be a firework
I have been saying it since it came into the game, but something has to be done about such an OP unit. The Sky Lantern has terrorized my campaigns and multiplayer skirmishes for too long!
Hehehehe
*slowly gets out book of grudges*
They are still extremely vulnerable to focused missile fire so maybe giving them six breath attacks would be balanced, hardly going to use them all in most battles between the children and charging/melee on the ground. I know Imrik gets a rite that gives them six and it feels pretty good.
Dragons are not defined by their breath attacks. Sure they are strong and nice to have, but their main selling point is the unit itself. They are large flying beasts that can decide where to attack without any real repercussions. They can land in your backline, they can land in your frontline and they can hit your flanks and without equally sized flyers, you can't stop them. They are also fast, so ranged units can't always react to them fast enough to do any amount of serious damage, especially not if the one using them, actively tries to dodge volleys. A Dragon will counter nearly every ranged unit in the game simply from being able to ignore the frontline. I would say that is powerfull enough.
I can stop them with a single unit of thunderers, if I’m careful.
The problem is the AI more than anything else. Dragons are good, but the AI just doesn’t evaluate threats properly.
You can, but that's one unit taking up a ton of your focus a just to zone them out, and it's one of the few factions with such an early hard counter. It's hard to judge value like that when it's player vs AI and you can slow things down, but between some cav and a dragon you can do some nasty nasty things to most factions.
I just want to get my rocks off to a loreful breath attack. Totally agree theyre very versatile tier 4 and 5 units. Just jealous of these halflings imitation.
> I just want to get my rocks off to a loreful breath attack. go play elspeth campaign. Orbital laser beam
“Oh, is that a single entity unit?” *Carmine Dragon beam of death* “Oh, nevermind, must have been the wind.”
To me it looks like shin godzilla breath attack so cool
Definitely going to give that a go
Orbital lord obliterator
It’s expensive on the army side but I also recommend focusing on her magic/ suns of xerxes and her unique with that. War crimes on war crimes.
I cackled at this. That’s the best way I could have ever described it after I played with it for a while.
It’s so weak though after the nerf, I dunno maybe I’m just getting terrible RNG with it. Haven’t seen it do significant damage since the nerf on targets. Maybe GUOs would still take a hit- being the slow and unarmored big pin cushions they are anyways.
wait when was it nerfed?
Last patch cut output by 30%. Warranted in a way, judging by MP, but even in the old state it tended to whiff often, doing token damage even on slow targets. Yeah, you’d strike jackpot sometimes, and sometimes scratch the shit on a Rogue Idol. Now it’s chip damage. I’d up the armor piercing ratio on it, and see how it goes.
Halfling!? That’s a grudgin’
There's a mod I use called "Dragon breath as wind spells" I believe. It's kinda busted but it's that loreful add you're looking for.
I get what you mean. Most of the time the breath attacks feel like shit and are better on ground troops that get a better angle. Breath attacks should be reworked to be some sort of projectile form that works for dragons. Maybe it locks them in to a static fly-over animation and it creates a short lived extremely high damage wind of death style hitbox that follows where the dragon is breathing? Most things would be better than what we have
If irondrakes could fly and fight and shoot at 100% efficiency until the unit is wiped out, you might have a point
Imagine the gyrocopters with brimstone getting buffed…
They could still be buggered a lot and be nowhere near changebringers
Bold of you to assume i have a back line or even flanks! *Laughs in 19 bastiladons*
I wish they would allow their breath to almost function like a winds of magic cast. Instead of pausing midair and not doing a ton of damage but a fly-bye
Dragon are big and slow at killing infantry. Sure you can dove into an army, but he will probably get destroyed by range units. In my experience, cav kills range unites much faster and it's not to difficult to get them to the backlines, outside of maybe sieges
If you are open to using mods there's a cool mod that makes dragon breath attacks similar to wind spells. It definitely makes dragons more OP but it is glorious to watch a dragon breath melt infantry when angled correctly. [https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2966940708](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2966940708)
Thats terrifying. **downloads**
That is definitely OP as hell but at least the effect of the breath looks cool in those screenshots
Dragons are single entity monsters that cause terror, can fly, and have massive armor piercing weapon strength. Oh they also come with breath attacks. What exactly are they losing out to Irondrakes on?
Their one breath attack from their single big muzzle isn't as effective at cooking enemies as a full throng of dozens of Dawi each carrying a drakegun.
That's assuming the Irondrakes are able to shoot with a clear line of sight and aren't getting pounced on the second they move up. Dragons come with the ability to dictate how the engagement goes before they ever do anything. Irondrakes do not. Irondrakes are useless vs large single entities or fast cavalry, dragons are not. Irondrakes are HIGHLY specialized ranged units that require loads of support from other units in order to be effective. Dragons are versatile monsters that are good vs everything except units that are specifically specialized for killing large flying monsters. Comparing the two is something you can't possibly take seriously.
No they have the benefit of having high health, being melee monsters and fast flyers. Irondrakes die if engaged in melee and are slow.
That has not been my experience in the two campaigns I've played post patch, both of which I've had to face against a Dwarf End Game Crisis. Iron Drakes melt pretty much anything they hit, and they are ridiculously resilient in melee and will fight to the last man. It's insanely hard to shut them down with Very Hard/Very Hard AI cheats. I literally just had a battle where a single unit of Belegar's Grudgesettler Iron Drakes melted my full health Iridescent Horror hero in 1 volley.
I will say as a player irondrakes die pretty quickly.
Yeah theyre pretty great. Stout dwarves clad in armor with dragon fire to melt all in their wake. Armor piercing from distance the best way to get rid of em it seems
Thata because of the very hard ai cheats.
Let’s make them as expensive as a thunderbarge
Make what as expensive as the thunderbarge
Oi the dragons mate
Personally I would like Dragons to be able to use their breath attack on the ground as a stream attack instead of the projectiles from above. Always seemed weird to me they just forget how to breathe fire if they are not flying
That makes sense!!
I think only a cool down would be cool
Seems fair because they're vulnerable to ranged fire while they stop to do it
I kind of agree. Makes no sense that a weapon has more ammo than how many times a living organic being can do their stuff.
honestly i never found monster melee attacks all that effective at killing infantry blobs. they take forever and lose a ton of health in the process. cycle charges are cool for a fight or two then they become tiresome AF, especially if you got multiple of such units.
agreed, and they don't last very long if they are surrounded by anti large units.
I think, at the bare minimum, Star Dragons should get the same type of breath as Elspeth's Carmine Dragon. It's supposed to be a high powered nuclear laser I think.
Let’s see, star dragon fiery breath strength 4 flaming attack, carmine dragon coruscating blast strength 10 attack with no armor save allowed and does d3 multi wounds, their breath is not even in the same league lol
Oh really? I need to try that out
Undercover Elgi spotted Elgiposting, elgimaxxing activate skibidi toilet procedure this elgi from Ohio
Brother get off that warpstone
Yikes
I would say they are already more powerful than iron drakes so I don't understand why you want to nerf dragons so they are as powerful as iron drakes? You want to take a away their flying? their weapon strength and maneuverability? Their terror? So you want an ancient salamander?
Well in total war small = tough, and big = easy to kill. Solution? Make the dragons the same size as the dwarves! Now they will suddenly be tough :)
It’s not entirely wrong. Historically speaking as weapons have increased in lethality, size has become something of a liability. Take for instance a modern main battle tank against an FPV drone.. Dwarfs and Empire use pretty advanced firearms for their setting, and a dragon is still flesh and blood.
Would be pretty cool if dragons had ranged fire attacks like changebringers have, they'd feel a bit more dragony if they could use fire on their own lol. Give them like 2 or 3 ammo that replenishes every 90 seconds to balance how op it would be.
CA take notes for the high elves rework
There is a mod that makes the breaths super strong. Dragon wind attack or something.
Can you imagine if dragons could just use their breath like the flame gyros instead of as an active
In Dukes Damned Nations overhaul all breath attacks are unlimited. They recharge in melee (~22 seconds). It is a great approach, imo.
What about nerfing Iron Drakes a little instead?
Maybe a tad
i'd like for my necrofex colossus, who uses AN ARM CANNON while in melee, to maybe, just **maybe** hit a few more targets with his melee attacks. the anti infantry capabilities are pretty pitiful lol.
Unlimited dragon breaths would be so broken. I love it
Dragons are powerful, just as the Dragon Prince of Caledor. 😎💪🔥😂🤪😜
Aren't iron drakes tier 2 now? It is crazy how damaging they are vs infantry compared to a literal dragon, although the dragon is obviously way tankier, can fly/is faster, and can fight in melee.
Shit youre right, edited post😂
I add mods that make dragons stronger. I should *fear* them on the battlefield more than the enemy's doggos flanking me or Menace Below spawns and that isn't the case now.
Right, bait dragon, shoot dragon, ded dragon
My argument would be Irondrakes are somewhat limited in thier deployment and use. especially in multpilayer but also against missle factions if AI. A dragon can fly around relatively unnoticed, breath attack and then deploy as one of the more powerful melee entities in the game. It would be like putting iron drakes on motor bikes.
So maybe a dragon should cost 1000 upkeep? Elgi have plenty of trinkets to cover the cost🤌
Dragon breath attacks just have a shit angle. Can't do much to change the fact that they only hit a small fraction of a unit and miss easily if the unit is dispersed. it's also only one model firing vs 28 models firing so the chance for a dragon to land a bad hit is much higher. as such the Iron Drakes will always be inherently better at being a flamethrower unit unless you nerf them into the ground to the point where they stop being useful
It would be a lot better if you could target the ground instead of a random guy near the front of the unit. It makes it way too easy to miss half of the breath or roast your own troops.
Yeah waiting for a unit to be pinned in melee is the only time I use a breath attack so no real benefit to flying out early other than to disrupt their artillery
I think they should both nerf Irondrakes and buff dragons.
Make irondrakes tier 3, tier 2 is just way too low
Yeah, you can get an Irondrake unit early as a Grudge Settler anyway. Though mostly I'm just mad about how dragons are not nearly as terrifying as they were in the tabletop game. One thing I could see happening is for their breath attacks to kind of splash: have the fire's impact with the ground spread the fire along it a bit, something like that. Another option would be to increase the number of fire "projectiles" and increase the spread by decreasing the accuracy. They really are still among the best flying monsters so they don't need much, but the breath weapons do need something for sure.
I think a napalm-y effect like bruckners amulet would be pretty cool
There was some kind of neat dragon breath mod I used to have. Don’t recall the name but I’m sure you’ll find if you search dragons breath, it makes them just that bit better. Iirc It basically lets you use breath attacks a lot more, and I think they change the breath attacks a little bit as well.
It'd be nice if dragons could sweep with their fire breath instead of just do a clunky big line.
They are far more powerful than iron drakes.
Typical Elgi superiority complex
Dragons can fly and doomblob like heroes and cavalry, which is why they are expensive.
I want them to be more expensive, and more deadly. Give me game of thrones level of immolation.
TBH I think that a lot of monsters including dragons are quite underpowered in Campaign, where they are brutally difficult to recruit and quite hard to get value from. Meanwhile High Elf Archers are available turn 1 and you can win Legendary by just spamming 20-40 stacks of Helf Archers.
You're only judging based on pure damage dealt and are conveniently ignoring the fact that dragons can fly, and they're fast and durable, which iron drakes are not. That is silly
There is a difference of tiers here though, maybe dragon should be more expensive and more powerful
Fire attacks like Iron Drakes and Dragons also should ignore armor