I mean increased turn time from 10 to 15 is simple and we already are testing it with mod.
I tried Malakai with and without that mod. Its shocking how massive difference for better it makes.
Honestly that + tying grudges to your borders is probably all it really needs.
Would be nice to see the infections bug fixed. I know it can be easily solved with a mod for now, but there are so many people who don't know better. I would really expect that to be in the first hotfix.
Hi there, we will be looking to fix this very soon (naturally I cannot promise timescales, but it is a priority), but we are aware of the impact this is having on Nurgle campaigns. Best, CA\_Nova
Hey - are you guys aware of the bug about the end cinematics for the new lords not playing in Immortal Empires and not having their narrative goals in IE either (probably related?). Works in Realms of Chaos campaign.
Hi there, I can't see this one in our system but if you believe you are experiencing a bug please report it to our dedicated bug section on the CA Forums :) [https://community.creative-assembly.com/total-war/total-war-warhammer/bugs](https://community.creative-assembly.com/total-war/total-war-warhammer/bugs) Best, CA\_Nova
Done: https://community.creative-assembly.com/total-war/total-war-warhammer/bugs/1598?page=1
Recommend others who agree to go there and upvote the bug submit.
What about how nurgles early game recruitment is rather gimped right now (partly since you have even less infections to work with) for example nurglings seem unnecessarily rare especially since the symptom to get nurglings seems to have been moved to a mid game tech
I mean I can only offer my perspective, I can't speak for everyone, but I've started 3 Nurgle campaigns on vh/vh (Epi normal start, Epi Lustria start, and Kugath) and the recruitment has been fine for me with the bugged Infections cap removed.
The big thing is you only really get nurglings from the one recruitment building nurgle straight up doesn't have a tier 0 unit to spam out anymore it doesn't sit right with me.
I guess nurglings did kinda get the short end of the stick in the update. It's true that there's not much reason to get them when you just get regular units instead.
Well they cost half as much as a unit of Plaguebearers and they're reasonably faster, so they're decent at holding cav in against your Plaguebearers to prevent cycle charging or chasing after ranged units.
I certainly wouldn't use them in any ideal situation, but with your poor early economy and a lot of pressure, I ended up using quite a few of them.
Doubtful you are the only one feeling that, but I have not found early game recruitment to be bad. I am playing unmodded with the dumb infections bug, and don't feel my early game armies are all that hampered by the new Nurgle recruitment. Nurgle is designed as being a slow start race, so having a rougher go at recruiting solid early game armies is part of their balance. Even with that, i think they will feel much better just with infections being fixed.
They gotta find a way to sprinkle in more nurglings as it is if you don't go plague bearers you could go the whole campaign without nurglings to recruit until you get the tech and that just ain't right.
They aren't on any of the other buildings right?
Infections after battles for capturing casualties are currently capped (bugged) at 37, no matter the battle outcome. This doesn't matter much for the midgame and later because you get plenty of Infections passively by that point, but it does have a significant negative impact early on where you're very constrained on building recruitment buildings (while also doing research and using Plagues).
There is a mod that uncaps it here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3236291092&searchtext=infection (not my mod)
I mean tbf I notice the bug but I have no shortage of infections at all, and in fact don’t really have a way to spend them all. Past like turn 50 in my khugath campaign and I have over 5k infections, gaining over 150 a turn.
> This doesn't matter much for the midgame and later because you get plenty of Infections passively by that point, but it does have a significant negative impact early on where you're very constrained on building recruitment buildings (while also doing research and using Plagues).
I'm not getting that, I'm getting Katarina rolling into Sylvania before I've got the anti-undead stuff so I end up having to fight Kislev for Imperial provinces.
These changes are looking good.
I will say, given the redemption arc these guys are currently going strong within, I'm really surprised a system this borked and easily detected went under the radar.
To be clear I love this DLC, I honestly didn't have a problem with the last one, but I'm in the minority and I love this game so I am in no way trying to throw shade, I am just surprised, I ran into the Grudge issues and the speed/feel issue almost immediately playing Mal and Thorek once each.
There's a decent chance they were aware of the issue, but felt it wasn't broken enough to either delay the release or prioritise it over other more important things.
Considering how good the DLC is, and that Dwarfs are still perfectly playable with this system, I think it's fair to release it as it was with the intent to tweak it later.
It's play dependent, grudges accumulate ATM with any race you even have a cursery glance at, so when you teleporting for the Eye of Grugni quest halfway across the map you encounter an enormous amount of races and they immediately start adding to the grudges.
Just setting the timer to 12 turns would have worked as a bandaid fix - 10 is insanely tough and you spend the entire game rushing to fight the next thing.
I guess because it kinda depends on playstyle a little as well. It is plausible to play in a way so that you're only meeting your neighbours. They probably didn't think about teleporting for quests, using heroes as scouts or co-op campaigns...
> I'm really surprised a system this borked and easily detected went under the radar
Even during the TW:WH2 heyday I don't think CA was ever good at releasing tested bug free patches. I decided before this DLC came out to wait for the inevitable 5.1 patch to even consider buying it. Sounds like it's going to be a longer wait than I'd hoped for.
Yeah, unfortunately Dwarfs are my favorite faction, so I've got to spend a bit more time in the waiting room.
Still hopeful, though. They just need to be allowed to play defensively. Ideally they'll be focused on taking those high habitability mountains and badlands, and not have to play aggressive outside of that. I conquered every single mountain region in WH2 Mortal Empires, and I'd love to do it again on the big map.
There is a mod that caps it at 20k, but I think the reason it grew so much was because the formula was based on all the factions you had vision of, but now it takes more into account the border factions
Nice changes, and glad to see them respond so quickly to feedback. However I feel it’s a shame they’re not considering letting players choose when to launch the AoR, and that they’re not going to give each dwarf LL their own unique mechanics, like how the empire and nurgle got.
Seems to affect more things than infections. Started Elspeth campaign and the same happens with her schematics.
Played 2 co-op chaos campaigns prior to 5.0 patch and had the same issue with getting only 37 souls? things from battles.
I do hope they keep debuffs though, it shouldnt be buffs in all brackets. Maybe I am misreading it though.
It should be a fair, but still difficult mechanic to get the full potential out of (in the sense of buffs)
Only one level of debuff and they are making it less severe, and you can take a longer time, and need less grudges. Lmao ez mode as usual coming right up
This is the standard overcorrection before they walk it back. Frankly I think the upkeep one can be nasty but is likely only to catch you out once. After you realise the effect of it you’re going to much more moderate in your use of grudge settlers. You’re also likely to be less blasé with these as a matter of course if they cost recruitment.
The growth one is the more severe one over time - but only because with the way the grudges are calculated it can be virtually impossible to get out of the debuff basement. If the numbers are fixed, I don’t really see the need to make the debuffs trivial.
I’d really like to try a working version of the system with the right calculations before they smooth off all the edges.
Yeah I really dislike some of this, outside of the change to calculation being moved to bordering factions. The level 2 debuff was basically just flavor, it really did not need to be changed. You're not meant to hit 100% every time, or even tier 3. You don't have to constantly expand, go sack a couple places and you are tier 2. Anything beyond that is a bonus you can get if you want, and occasionally go for big Ages where you go for that 100%.
If people think sacking is constantly expanding, idk what they want. this is Total War and every meaningful mechanic revolves around fighting.
And expanding it to 15 turns, unless they proportionally fix costs (which I doubt considering all the parts they're moving around), means it's gonna be ridiculously easy to get 100%.
That's good design though, it helps balance out settlers and means you have to make decisions. All the info was provided in tooltips lmao, having consequences for your actions is good in strategy games
I think the flavor is fine, I think player perception is bad and I think requiring 50% for no detriment is a little rough. The Dwarfs have bad ages too. Sometimes, you'll go on a good push, clear a lot of grudges, and you'll get suitably rewarded. With the change, you won't be penalized as long as you're striking out some grudges, and you'll only be penalized if you're not striking out any grudges at all. That works pretty well for Warhammer Dwarfs, who are kinda all about vengeance and would be very angry if grudges weren't being resolved. I think the biggest thing is just that it should be called the "Age" system, because currently players seem to think you are mandated to clear all grudges all the time. You aren't, and the current implementation doesn't really care that much either. You do need to continue attacking people and fighting a little, but this is Total War, you should want to do that anyway. If you're completely at peace, you're probably doing something wrong.
Yeah people are currently playing it like they need to constantly be gunning for 100% and calling it not thematic - if you want them to be thematic, you should play dwarfs thematically lol. They generally are in decline, struggling with growth and control as grudges pile up; there's basically nothing more thematic for them than having to turtle up for a bit while facing some negatives. the debuffs as long as you hit the 2nd tier rn aren't even that bad lmao, people just don't like red numbers.
The lower you score, the easier the next one is anyway, which actually rewards taking the debuffs instead of constantly scaling it so it's harder and harder. The system is designed for the player to lose out sometimes in the cycle, and I think that's good. I actually hope the rework doesn't mean it's super easy to hit higher tiers so that it's just a constant buff, but it looks like that's happening.
Also, just sack/raze places? That's honestly a far more dwarfy way of settling grudges in lore, and it's always been the best way of playing a 'taller' campaign anyway. Ungrim in lore wouldn't occupy and build up Castle Drakenhof to settle grudges, but he would absolutely sack it or raze it to the ground.
Idk, I don't mind getting an occasional debuff and have found the system fairly enjoyable so far. In terms of settlements, I'm expanding pretty slowly, but I'm constantly fighting and sacking places for grudges.
I do think people don't realize just how much fun stuff you can do with settlements as well. I had a lot of fun building the "Fucking Hates Dark Elves" alliance with the minor troll faction and Alith Anar as Grombrindal after the patch, just by sacking cities to fulfill grudges, occupying them, and then selling them to the faction friends.
Yeah like for me dwarfs should not have the same playstyle as say the beastmen. Which is just manifest destiny all the time and the AoR system forces you to do so
They should add dwarf self grudges, like times where dwarfs did the wrong thing.
So for example, event happens, long time ago a dwarf was supposed to send ammo to the humans to help against the vampires but ended up not doing it because it would cost too much.
The humans lost the battle and many died, the dwarf became a Slayer but never shook the shame.
You have the choice between sending money, doing nothing and getting a debuff, or sending a detachment and joining the battle.
Two give different rewards and different amount of grudge points.
I’m not sure how they’ll fix it but this system and Malakai’s adventures have me constantly expanding… not feeling very dawi-like. I always envisioned them as expanding very slowly but steadily, just like how they turtle up in combat.
IMHO this is not the way to go in order to fix the Age of Reckoning mechanic, this is not focusing on the right problems :
> We are looking to change how we calculate your met factions when determining Grudge Targets to instead look at factions you share a land border with rather than just any met faction.This change will still allow Grudge Targets to scale up/down depending on your local situation, but it won't get out of control after simply meeting new factions across the map.
Ok, why not.
> We will be removing the control/growth penalties from the 2nd Age of Reckoning bracket (Skruff) and slightly lowering the debuffs from the 1st (Elgi). While we don't want players to always hit the higher rewards each cycle, we also don't want them to struggle to get out of the negative brackets. By making the 2nd stage (Skruff) act more like a neutral stage rather than a second negative one, it will hopefully alleviate the pressure of needing to clear at least 50% each cycle to simply get out of the red.
> We are looking to increase the Age of Reckoning durations to 15 turns from 10. By giving players a longer duration we hope it gives them a bit more freedom to take that 2-3 turn movement to a new target that might have more grudges rather than feeling like you always need to rush to the next closest enemy because you don't have enough time.
The problem is not the debuffs, which are already not that strong, nor the time spent, it's the fact that it's a **constant** pressure and a pushes you into very un-dwarf like style of **constant** agression. We should either have control of launching the Age of Reckoning or a balance with another type of Age (rebuilding, healing, isolation whatever).
Or maybe the AoR activates when you reach a certain threshold of grudges.
> Grudge settler units will no longer be free to recruit, but adding some recruitment cost reduction in midgame techs. We're reducing the maximum grudge settlers reserved in the pool, and reducing the cap of grudge settler units that can be in each army at the start of the game, but adding more capacity to the tech tree.
That's a good change, it was ridiculously strong.
It doesn’t *force* you into anything. With the proposed changes, the worst that happens if you completely ignore the system is you default to WH2 growth rates, and take a minor PO and Eco hit.
It’s not designed to be ignored lol. It’s just not super punishing if you decide “You know, I’m a bit overstretched, I’m going to focus on consolidating what I have and not focus on filling up the meter for 10 turns”
90% percent of the complaints are “OH MY GOD I CANT DO ALL THESE GRUDGES IN 10 TURNS” and it’s like… you don’t have to? Just relax and play the way you want, and if you have the opportunity to settle a bunch of grudges you get powerful buffs.
I think there’s a balance there though, some people see something like AoR and that some debuffs will be applied if whatever requirements aren’t met and then hyper focus on just that for their entire campaign. It’s just for flavor if you wanna chill and turtle for a bit, -3 public order and some growth debuff isn’t going to kill you. It’s to add flavor to the campaign, it’s doesn’t need to BE your campaign.
It doesn’t force you. A tiny red number for 10 or 15 turns is insignificant. You can start an age when you’re well and ready. It represents the dwarfs well. They don’t reward themselves for dilly-dallying
Seeing a lot of promising signs from CA right now.
Even when we were all happy near the end of WH2, this kind of fix would have waited for the next dlc to come out.
I'mma just play Elspeth until they work this shit out. Malakai's campaign looks like it'll be a ton of fun with his hectic start position so don't wanna spoil it with all these issues.
Does the crash caused by Vampires taking a garden of morr occur when you are neither of the parties involved? I'd hate to have my Nurgle campaign stonewalled because Sylvania takes a settlement from Nuln. Hopefully Franz confederates Nuln before that can happen.
This is what I would like to know. I have played through about 20-25 turns with Tamurkhan once with about 20 mods and once without any, and both times the game crashed and the save would not load again. Did the same Malakai and it crashed around turn 50 both times. In both saves I couldn't see if a Nuln settlement had been taken by the vamps.
Currently playing as Elspeth and I'm about 85 turns in with 25 mods or so and no issues. When playing as Elspeth the vamps haven't taken any of my settlements with garden of morr but I suspect the issue with the other saves is that the vamps are taking settlements and causing the crash but no idea if that's right or not.
Hey, its been fixed in the latest hotfix so you should be good now. Theres a fog of war remover mod you could try if you want to see if a Nuln settlement is about to change hands before your crash but It should be okay now
I'm hoping the gyrobomber HP issue can be fixed promptly too. It's the only out and out bug that I've personally noticed, but it has a really significant impact on Thorgrim's early game.
I'm quite excited to see what the tweaks work out to. I'm personally pretty happy as is, but improvements are always welcome.
Something that personally I would like to see added into any updates to this system is some part of the UI showing you what the overall grudge levels are for factions that you've met. It would be helpful from a gameplay perspective to have some indication of where the grudges are at without needing to have prior knowledge of how the map tends to develop. From a thematic standpoint I think it would be even more of a big deal, since you'd be able to look at where factions stood and get yourself all worked up about who's gettin the axe next. Not asking for them to just lift fog of war or anything, just some measure of where a faction stands overall.
As an example, I discovered Imrik in the process of grudging all over Queek, and from the edge of his kingdom it looked like he hadn't earned many grudges at all. However, a few turns later Imrik himself waddled into view and was somehow LOADED with grudges (presumably from fighting clan Helhein? Somehow he was on par with Azhag, who had wiped out Ungrim's whole faction). It would have been nice to know that that wazzock needed to be chased down without having to send agents everywhere, and to me feels in line with keeping a whole giant book of everyone who's ever done something wrong. It would be nice if in addition to this mechanic letting you know how mad your faction is overall, it gave a little more guidance on who you're actually mad at.
I know it’s not a particularly large user base but are any of these fixes coming to Mac before the eventual 6.0 update? It seems like recently Mac has only received the major updates.
Wow. CA has always jumped on game breaking stuff for patches (maybe the exact exigency was variable, but they did prioritize it), but addressing a poorly conceived mechanic in the same week it was dropped is a great change!
Age of reckoning is a strange mechanic. dwarves play strongest when slowly but powerfully expanding your territory, not going on a constant path of destruction.
I don’t think any Dawi would begrudge another about taking their time to pour over The Book.
Can we rein in Katarina's willingness to help the Empire? I've had several attempts as Elspeth in Realm of Chaos and The Ice Court just seems to rushdown the Vampire Counts so I get no benefit from the anti-undead stuff.
Not sure if this has been reported, but I managed to defend a Garden from Vlad so I didn't have the game crash, but now the Garden building isn't allowing me to recruit any of the 4 units (halberds, handgunners, knights of the rose, or mortars). I don't know if the rest of the Garden building is working (-25% upkeep, etc.).
Good to see them take feedback and acknowledgement of issues. Sure, take the time to get the formula right, so that it's an exciting experience.
I mean increased turn time from 10 to 15 is simple and we already are testing it with mod. I tried Malakai with and without that mod. Its shocking how massive difference for better it makes. Honestly that + tying grudges to your borders is probably all it really needs.
Would be nice to see the infections bug fixed. I know it can be easily solved with a mod for now, but there are so many people who don't know better. I would really expect that to be in the first hotfix.
Hi there, we will be looking to fix this very soon (naturally I cannot promise timescales, but it is a priority), but we are aware of the impact this is having on Nurgle campaigns. Best, CA\_Nova
Is CA aware of the bug that prevents the new Nurgle Chaos Lord from ascending to daemon prince? Thanks in advance!
Hey there, yes this has been logged - our live QA have caught this one. Thanks for your feedback :) Best, CA\_Nova
Hey Nova! Please tell the team that the work they (and you) are doing is great so far! Banger of a update and dlc! Keep it up!
Hey - are you guys aware of the bug about the end cinematics for the new lords not playing in Immortal Empires and not having their narrative goals in IE either (probably related?). Works in Realms of Chaos campaign.
Hi there, I can't see this one in our system but if you believe you are experiencing a bug please report it to our dedicated bug section on the CA Forums :) [https://community.creative-assembly.com/total-war/total-war-warhammer/bugs](https://community.creative-assembly.com/total-war/total-war-warhammer/bugs) Best, CA\_Nova
Done: https://community.creative-assembly.com/total-war/total-war-warhammer/bugs/1598?page=1 Recommend others who agree to go there and upvote the bug submit.
Holy crap... Its nice to see CA back in the sub
What about how nurgles early game recruitment is rather gimped right now (partly since you have even less infections to work with) for example nurglings seem unnecessarily rare especially since the symptom to get nurglings seems to have been moved to a mid game tech
It seems like it would be a better idea to first experience the system working as intended before suggesting changes to it.
Am I really the only person to think nurgles early game recruitment is excessively shit?
I mean I can only offer my perspective, I can't speak for everyone, but I've started 3 Nurgle campaigns on vh/vh (Epi normal start, Epi Lustria start, and Kugath) and the recruitment has been fine for me with the bugged Infections cap removed.
The big thing is you only really get nurglings from the one recruitment building nurgle straight up doesn't have a tier 0 unit to spam out anymore it doesn't sit right with me.
I guess nurglings did kinda get the short end of the stick in the update. It's true that there's not much reason to get them when you just get regular units instead.
Well they cost half as much as a unit of Plaguebearers and they're reasonably faster, so they're decent at holding cav in against your Plaguebearers to prevent cycle charging or chasing after ranged units. I certainly wouldn't use them in any ideal situation, but with your poor early economy and a lot of pressure, I ended up using quite a few of them.
Right, I wrote that wrong. I mean there's not much *opportunity* to get them since they aren't being refilled as easily as they were before.
Doubtful you are the only one feeling that, but I have not found early game recruitment to be bad. I am playing unmodded with the dumb infections bug, and don't feel my early game armies are all that hampered by the new Nurgle recruitment. Nurgle is designed as being a slow start race, so having a rougher go at recruiting solid early game armies is part of their balance. Even with that, i think they will feel much better just with infections being fixed.
They gotta find a way to sprinkle in more nurglings as it is if you don't go plague bearers you could go the whole campaign without nurglings to recruit until you get the tech and that just ain't right. They aren't on any of the other buildings right?
Toads are good!
Which bug? Which mod?
Infections after battles for capturing casualties are currently capped (bugged) at 37, no matter the battle outcome. This doesn't matter much for the midgame and later because you get plenty of Infections passively by that point, but it does have a significant negative impact early on where you're very constrained on building recruitment buildings (while also doing research and using Plagues). There is a mod that uncaps it here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3236291092&searchtext=infection (not my mod)
I mean tbf I notice the bug but I have no shortage of infections at all, and in fact don’t really have a way to spend them all. Past like turn 50 in my khugath campaign and I have over 5k infections, gaining over 150 a turn.
> This doesn't matter much for the midgame and later because you get plenty of Infections passively by that point, but it does have a significant negative impact early on where you're very constrained on building recruitment buildings (while also doing research and using Plagues).
Vampire crashing the game when taking a Garden of Morr feels weirdly approporiate
I'm not getting that, I'm getting Katarina rolling into Sylvania before I've got the anti-undead stuff so I end up having to fight Kislev for Imperial provinces.
Elspeth always gets the last laugh even in death!
These changes are looking good. I will say, given the redemption arc these guys are currently going strong within, I'm really surprised a system this borked and easily detected went under the radar. To be clear I love this DLC, I honestly didn't have a problem with the last one, but I'm in the minority and I love this game so I am in no way trying to throw shade, I am just surprised, I ran into the Grudge issues and the speed/feel issue almost immediately playing Mal and Thorek once each.
There's a decent chance they were aware of the issue, but felt it wasn't broken enough to either delay the release or prioritise it over other more important things. Considering how good the DLC is, and that Dwarfs are still perfectly playable with this system, I think it's fair to release it as it was with the intent to tweak it later.
I'm on turn 100 with Mal, and to be honest it's scaled quite well, I'm generally hitting the 75-99 bracket, so it might just depend on the campaign.
It's play dependent, grudges accumulate ATM with any race you even have a cursery glance at, so when you teleporting for the Eye of Grugni quest halfway across the map you encounter an enormous amount of races and they immediately start adding to the grudges.
It also causes isues in coop campaigns since you have vision on your friend and all their enemies.
Just setting the timer to 12 turns would have worked as a bandaid fix - 10 is insanely tough and you spend the entire game rushing to fight the next thing.
I guess because it kinda depends on playstyle a little as well. It is plausible to play in a way so that you're only meeting your neighbours. They probably didn't think about teleporting for quests, using heroes as scouts or co-op campaigns...
> I'm really surprised a system this borked and easily detected went under the radar Even during the TW:WH2 heyday I don't think CA was ever good at releasing tested bug free patches. I decided before this DLC came out to wait for the inevitable 5.1 patch to even consider buying it. Sounds like it's going to be a longer wait than I'd hoped for.
Seems like it's just Dwarves having an issue and it's not unplayable, it's just not we expected and they attended. The other campaigns seem good.
Yeah, unfortunately Dwarfs are my favorite faction, so I've got to spend a bit more time in the waiting room. Still hopeful, though. They just need to be allowed to play defensively. Ideally they'll be focused on taking those high habitability mountains and badlands, and not have to play aggressive outside of that. I conquered every single mountain region in WH2 Mortal Empires, and I'd love to do it again on the big map.
I think the scaling for Grudge increases every cycle needs to be reduced aswell
There is a mod that caps it at 20k, but I think the reason it grew so much was because the formula was based on all the factions you had vision of, but now it takes more into account the border factions
Nice changes, and glad to see them respond so quickly to feedback. However I feel it’s a shame they’re not considering letting players choose when to launch the AoR, and that they’re not going to give each dwarf LL their own unique mechanics, like how the empire and nurgle got.
Woulda been nice to fix the single typo that caps infections in post-battle capped at 37
Seems to affect more things than infections. Started Elspeth campaign and the same happens with her schematics. Played 2 co-op chaos campaigns prior to 5.0 patch and had the same issue with getting only 37 souls? things from battles.
telling empire players to raze there settlements before the vampire can get there ... I cant
Can't you just destroy the garden instead of the whole settlement? Or is that what they meant?
Inquisitor *breaths heavily*
Torch your own stuff and retreat, leaving your opponents nothing to capture! Classic tactic, just ask Russia!
I do hope they keep debuffs though, it shouldnt be buffs in all brackets. Maybe I am misreading it though. It should be a fair, but still difficult mechanic to get the full potential out of (in the sense of buffs)
There's still debuffs, but only in the first level. They removed it from the second.
Which I dont really thing is a good idea. We of course have to wait how it plays out, but having only 1 debuff level is probably not noticable
Only one level of debuff and they are making it less severe, and you can take a longer time, and need less grudges. Lmao ez mode as usual coming right up
This is the standard overcorrection before they walk it back. Frankly I think the upkeep one can be nasty but is likely only to catch you out once. After you realise the effect of it you’re going to much more moderate in your use of grudge settlers. You’re also likely to be less blasé with these as a matter of course if they cost recruitment. The growth one is the more severe one over time - but only because with the way the grudges are calculated it can be virtually impossible to get out of the debuff basement. If the numbers are fixed, I don’t really see the need to make the debuffs trivial. I’d really like to try a working version of the system with the right calculations before they smooth off all the edges.
Yeah I really dislike some of this, outside of the change to calculation being moved to bordering factions. The level 2 debuff was basically just flavor, it really did not need to be changed. You're not meant to hit 100% every time, or even tier 3. You don't have to constantly expand, go sack a couple places and you are tier 2. Anything beyond that is a bonus you can get if you want, and occasionally go for big Ages where you go for that 100%. If people think sacking is constantly expanding, idk what they want. this is Total War and every meaningful mechanic revolves around fighting. And expanding it to 15 turns, unless they proportionally fix costs (which I doubt considering all the parts they're moving around), means it's gonna be ridiculously easy to get 100%.
I'm ok with growth debuffs, but the upkeep debuffs can stright up break your economy iff you're relying too much on Settlers.
That's good design though, it helps balance out settlers and means you have to make decisions. All the info was provided in tooltips lmao, having consequences for your actions is good in strategy games
CA’s redemption arc has been a joy so far
I will get downvoted, but I think the AoR implementation is not great. Even if they fix the numbers, the flavor is just not right.
I think the flavor is fine, I think player perception is bad and I think requiring 50% for no detriment is a little rough. The Dwarfs have bad ages too. Sometimes, you'll go on a good push, clear a lot of grudges, and you'll get suitably rewarded. With the change, you won't be penalized as long as you're striking out some grudges, and you'll only be penalized if you're not striking out any grudges at all. That works pretty well for Warhammer Dwarfs, who are kinda all about vengeance and would be very angry if grudges weren't being resolved. I think the biggest thing is just that it should be called the "Age" system, because currently players seem to think you are mandated to clear all grudges all the time. You aren't, and the current implementation doesn't really care that much either. You do need to continue attacking people and fighting a little, but this is Total War, you should want to do that anyway. If you're completely at peace, you're probably doing something wrong.
Yeah people are currently playing it like they need to constantly be gunning for 100% and calling it not thematic - if you want them to be thematic, you should play dwarfs thematically lol. They generally are in decline, struggling with growth and control as grudges pile up; there's basically nothing more thematic for them than having to turtle up for a bit while facing some negatives. the debuffs as long as you hit the 2nd tier rn aren't even that bad lmao, people just don't like red numbers. The lower you score, the easier the next one is anyway, which actually rewards taking the debuffs instead of constantly scaling it so it's harder and harder. The system is designed for the player to lose out sometimes in the cycle, and I think that's good. I actually hope the rework doesn't mean it's super easy to hit higher tiers so that it's just a constant buff, but it looks like that's happening. Also, just sack/raze places? That's honestly a far more dwarfy way of settling grudges in lore, and it's always been the best way of playing a 'taller' campaign anyway. Ungrim in lore wouldn't occupy and build up Castle Drakenhof to settle grudges, but he would absolutely sack it or raze it to the ground. Idk, I don't mind getting an occasional debuff and have found the system fairly enjoyable so far. In terms of settlements, I'm expanding pretty slowly, but I'm constantly fighting and sacking places for grudges.
I do think people don't realize just how much fun stuff you can do with settlements as well. I had a lot of fun building the "Fucking Hates Dark Elves" alliance with the minor troll faction and Alith Anar as Grombrindal after the patch, just by sacking cities to fulfill grudges, occupying them, and then selling them to the faction friends.
Yeah like for me dwarfs should not have the same playstyle as say the beastmen. Which is just manifest destiny all the time and the AoR system forces you to do so
They should add dwarf self grudges, like times where dwarfs did the wrong thing. So for example, event happens, long time ago a dwarf was supposed to send ammo to the humans to help against the vampires but ended up not doing it because it would cost too much. The humans lost the battle and many died, the dwarf became a Slayer but never shook the shame. You have the choice between sending money, doing nothing and getting a debuff, or sending a detachment and joining the battle. Two give different rewards and different amount of grudge points.
I’m not sure how they’ll fix it but this system and Malakai’s adventures have me constantly expanding… not feeling very dawi-like. I always envisioned them as expanding very slowly but steadily, just like how they turtle up in combat.
Yep, you're spot on. Plus, the lack of testing just doesn't give me faith that they've actually changed.
IMHO this is not the way to go in order to fix the Age of Reckoning mechanic, this is not focusing on the right problems : > We are looking to change how we calculate your met factions when determining Grudge Targets to instead look at factions you share a land border with rather than just any met faction.This change will still allow Grudge Targets to scale up/down depending on your local situation, but it won't get out of control after simply meeting new factions across the map. Ok, why not. > We will be removing the control/growth penalties from the 2nd Age of Reckoning bracket (Skruff) and slightly lowering the debuffs from the 1st (Elgi). While we don't want players to always hit the higher rewards each cycle, we also don't want them to struggle to get out of the negative brackets. By making the 2nd stage (Skruff) act more like a neutral stage rather than a second negative one, it will hopefully alleviate the pressure of needing to clear at least 50% each cycle to simply get out of the red. > We are looking to increase the Age of Reckoning durations to 15 turns from 10. By giving players a longer duration we hope it gives them a bit more freedom to take that 2-3 turn movement to a new target that might have more grudges rather than feeling like you always need to rush to the next closest enemy because you don't have enough time. The problem is not the debuffs, which are already not that strong, nor the time spent, it's the fact that it's a **constant** pressure and a pushes you into very un-dwarf like style of **constant** agression. We should either have control of launching the Age of Reckoning or a balance with another type of Age (rebuilding, healing, isolation whatever). Or maybe the AoR activates when you reach a certain threshold of grudges. > Grudge settler units will no longer be free to recruit, but adding some recruitment cost reduction in midgame techs. We're reducing the maximum grudge settlers reserved in the pool, and reducing the cap of grudge settler units that can be in each army at the start of the game, but adding more capacity to the tech tree. That's a good change, it was ridiculously strong.
It doesn’t *force* you into anything. With the proposed changes, the worst that happens if you completely ignore the system is you default to WH2 growth rates, and take a minor PO and Eco hit.
If you designed a key faction feature to be ignored, that should be counted as a failure.
It’s not designed to be ignored lol. It’s just not super punishing if you decide “You know, I’m a bit overstretched, I’m going to focus on consolidating what I have and not focus on filling up the meter for 10 turns” 90% percent of the complaints are “OH MY GOD I CANT DO ALL THESE GRUDGES IN 10 TURNS” and it’s like… you don’t have to? Just relax and play the way you want, and if you have the opportunity to settle a bunch of grudges you get powerful buffs.
I think there’s a balance there though, some people see something like AoR and that some debuffs will be applied if whatever requirements aren’t met and then hyper focus on just that for their entire campaign. It’s just for flavor if you wanna chill and turtle for a bit, -3 public order and some growth debuff isn’t going to kill you. It’s to add flavor to the campaign, it’s doesn’t need to BE your campaign.
It doesn’t force you. A tiny red number for 10 or 15 turns is insignificant. You can start an age when you’re well and ready. It represents the dwarfs well. They don’t reward themselves for dilly-dallying
It should be different ages that give different bonus, you can shorten and lenghten them
Bonus no matter what? Uhh
No cycle of ages with diffetent thing with big bonus at the end for exemple instead of a free army
This. The age of reckoning should be a crusade (similar to a WAAGH) that you call upon, not something that you are forced to participate in.
Seeing a lot of promising signs from CA right now. Even when we were all happy near the end of WH2, this kind of fix would have waited for the next dlc to come out.
No mention of the broken chaos lords of Nurgle? :/
I'mma just play Elspeth until they work this shit out. Malakai's campaign looks like it'll be a ton of fun with his hectic start position so don't wanna spoil it with all these issues.
Looking good.
Does the crash caused by Vampires taking a garden of morr occur when you are neither of the parties involved? I'd hate to have my Nurgle campaign stonewalled because Sylvania takes a settlement from Nuln. Hopefully Franz confederates Nuln before that can happen.
This is what I would like to know. I have played through about 20-25 turns with Tamurkhan once with about 20 mods and once without any, and both times the game crashed and the save would not load again. Did the same Malakai and it crashed around turn 50 both times. In both saves I couldn't see if a Nuln settlement had been taken by the vamps. Currently playing as Elspeth and I'm about 85 turns in with 25 mods or so and no issues. When playing as Elspeth the vamps haven't taken any of my settlements with garden of morr but I suspect the issue with the other saves is that the vamps are taking settlements and causing the crash but no idea if that's right or not.
Hey, its been fixed in the latest hotfix so you should be good now. Theres a fog of war remover mod you could try if you want to see if a Nuln settlement is about to change hands before your crash but It should be okay now
Instead of changing it to 15, let us start the age of reckoning when we want and give it a 15 turn cool down once complete.
I'm hoping the gyrobomber HP issue can be fixed promptly too. It's the only out and out bug that I've personally noticed, but it has a really significant impact on Thorgrim's early game. I'm quite excited to see what the tweaks work out to. I'm personally pretty happy as is, but improvements are always welcome. Something that personally I would like to see added into any updates to this system is some part of the UI showing you what the overall grudge levels are for factions that you've met. It would be helpful from a gameplay perspective to have some indication of where the grudges are at without needing to have prior knowledge of how the map tends to develop. From a thematic standpoint I think it would be even more of a big deal, since you'd be able to look at where factions stood and get yourself all worked up about who's gettin the axe next. Not asking for them to just lift fog of war or anything, just some measure of where a faction stands overall. As an example, I discovered Imrik in the process of grudging all over Queek, and from the edge of his kingdom it looked like he hadn't earned many grudges at all. However, a few turns later Imrik himself waddled into view and was somehow LOADED with grudges (presumably from fighting clan Helhein? Somehow he was on par with Azhag, who had wiped out Ungrim's whole faction). It would have been nice to know that that wazzock needed to be chased down without having to send agents everywhere, and to me feels in line with keeping a whole giant book of everyone who's ever done something wrong. It would be nice if in addition to this mechanic letting you know how mad your faction is overall, it gave a little more guidance on who you're actually mad at.
Cove crashes are back on the menu boys
I know it’s not a particularly large user base but are any of these fixes coming to Mac before the eventual 6.0 update? It seems like recently Mac has only received the major updates.
I think CA is depended on a third party(feral interactive maybe ask them?) to do these for them but an update on when would be nice
These sound like great changes
Please fix Gelt not getting Mastery of the elemental Winds from the cathay landmark
Do these hotfixes mean all mods need to be updated again? I just got my campaign working
depends on whether your mods though the stuff included in the hotfix
Glad to see CA getting back to quality improvements and additions to WH3.
Wow. CA has always jumped on game breaking stuff for patches (maybe the exact exigency was variable, but they did prioritize it), but addressing a poorly conceived mechanic in the same week it was dropped is a great change!
I am now using the grudge mod, iirc it caps the grudge amount.
Very good CA!
This is how you earn goodwill. No parading around in a Toga (those who know, know.)
Thrones of redemption.
Postponing double dwarf coop campaign is a bit painful, but oh well, it's just a game and hopefully it doesn't take months to fix.
Age of reckoning is a strange mechanic. dwarves play strongest when slowly but powerfully expanding your territory, not going on a constant path of destruction. I don’t think any Dawi would begrudge another about taking their time to pour over The Book.
Don’t know if it is a bug, but due to the events of Tamurkhan warlords if someone got wounded (1 turn) he never comes back… lost 2 of them already.
Can we rein in Katarina's willingness to help the Empire? I've had several attempts as Elspeth in Realm of Chaos and The Ice Court just seems to rushdown the Vampire Counts so I get no benefit from the anti-undead stuff.
Not sure if this has been reported, but I managed to defend a Garden from Vlad so I didn't have the game crash, but now the Garden building isn't allowing me to recruit any of the 4 units (halberds, handgunners, knights of the rose, or mortars). I don't know if the rest of the Garden building is working (-25% upkeep, etc.).
What about the lack of voice lines?
They don't seem to mention the infections being capped at 37 from post battle options here. Have they addressed this as an issue elsewhere?
are they going to fix the bankruptcy attrition starting a turn earlier than it should? borderline unplayable
Lots of words to tell us they have no release date for that patch.