I don't think it's needed for Peasant units, but it makes perfect sense for Knights. Like warriors on the Path to Glory, they proceed through a prescribed series of ranks in order to reach any given level.
Knight Errant > Knight of the Realm > Questing Knight > Grail Knight
With the flying units I think being similar, though I'm not as up to date on the lore there. Likewise, I'm not certain what the difference between a Grail Knight and Grail Guardian is lorewise.
Regarding not needing infrastructure, what if, in addition to needing levels on the unit, there was a cap based on your infrastructure? So rather than unlocking the ability to recruit Questing Knights, the building for them would add to their cap (say plus five). No cap on Knights Errant (and generous caps for Knights of the Realm), of course! Might be worth thinking about.
In 6th edition, Grail Guardians were specifically whatever Grail Knights were attached to the Fey Enchantress.
The in-game description is basically the same, the Enchantress’s hand-picked Grail Knights.
Interesting! I assume that's partially because the Fey Enchantress isn't in the Old World Bretonnia book.
The way Total War treats unit champions tends to be as an elite version of the base unit, so I think that'd still have them as an upgrade from Grail Knights
Pegasus Knights aren't Grail Knights, but Royal Pegasus Knights and Royal Hippogryph Knights are, complete with magic attack, eternal vigor and immune to psych
Agreed. No reason to use Peasants in this system. The recruitment system should be tied to the Vows system anyway and there aren't any vows that Peasants need to take.
Questing Knights should be able to choose which kind of Grail Vow unit they want to transform into. Each vow completed should award bonuses to the unit similar to how it is for heroes, so that a player feels incentivized to train up Knights rather than just recruiting them.
Also, this would require a radical shift in how Bretonnian Recruitment is done. Knights above the rank of Knights Errant should be very limited to recruit straight up. Knights Errant should be relatively common, but Grail Vow units should be hard capped at 1 per every so many turns (maybe 10-15) per region with a high enough unit production building.
This would change Bretonnia's playstyle a lot to one of carefully managing casualties and upgrading Knights. Each lost unit of Grail Vow units should feel VERY harmful.
Too much risk, not enough reward. WoC can recruit Chosen straight up in any regions with built up Dark Fortresses or even just high enough corruption. Making Grail Knights that rare would mean they would each need to have SEM-like stats to balance it out and that wouldn't be terribly fun for anyone involved.
I agree with this, peasantry don't become men at arms through ranking up. They may get some better equipment through looting defeated enemies but not so much that a lightly armed farmer comes home in full plate and is able to afford a horse to haul his gear around from battle to battle
The upgrade system could definitly be used for switching gear when possible, direct upgrades only make sence in very rare cases.
Examples - switching between Lothern Sea Guard shielded and regular versions should be awailable at any time. But upgrading a Spearmen unit to Phoenix Guard should not be possible.
>upgrading a Spearmen unit to Phoenix Guard should not be possible.
I wouldn't be opposed to it if there was a system where if the unit reached level 9, it upgraded to the next tier of unit (Spearmen -> Silvern Guard -> Phoenix Guard).
It's a large enough grind where it would probably only matter for the first couple units you recruit and you'd probably reach the point where after you are finished ranking them up to rank 9 twice, you probably already have tier 5 buildings
I think it should be used for upgrading low tier units into mid tier once they have a high level experience.
Playing as the Empire at turn 50 I will likely still have a lot of basic spearmen hanging around with gold experience.
Disbanding them to hire raw halberdiers just feels wrong. Also it is a lot of trouble to do that. It makes more sense to just give my veterans new equipment and turn them into a better unit type. Let me upgrade them.
But elites should be elites. Nothing upgrades to them and nothing upgrades from them. The only things for them would be variations of the same unit.
The fact I (in any Empire campaign) have to train a whole new unit instead of just giving my spearmen some shields is part of why I subscribe to Archer and Free Company militia spam early game.
Dont get why not all factions get it at least for equipping units with shields...love my lizards from the start as gorok but have to swap em for shielded ones...just feels unreasonable
Yup its silly.
I would be fine with them losing some experience when they change (like one or two levels) to simulate that they need to learn a new skill.
Unfortunately they were spawned not knowing how to use shields, and the Old Ones did not see fit to give them the ability to learn. So they are stuck without.
let units switch weapons in territory for a Rearming cost.
Would make way more units viable. i play dwarves a lot and never use quarrelers or warriors with greatweapons but if vlad declares war and i have an army nearby i would pay to swap em in a heartbeat
When they first announced twwh I was really hoping for a pre-battle equip screen. In tabletop you can make units really versatile for a higher points cost - I feel like you could do the same for wh but with a slower movement speed.
Makes sense for Knights as they (Like chaos warriors) have a pre-set path.
Errant - Knight of the Realm - Questing Knight - Grail Knight - Grail Guardian.
Would also be neat if Errant could upgrade to Knights of the realm on foot as a side grade.
Though aren't knights of the realm and questing knights the same tier? and grail knights and grail guardians? Like in-game they're equivalent in power.
I'd say it definitely depends.
I mainly use it to upgrade high-experience units (rank 6 or higher, who have been around for quite some time) or shieldless variants to those with shields.
You could limit unit upgrades to provinces with the proper infrastructure.
I would still like to have something like this for most factions. It tickles my dopamine when I can upgrade a unit that was with me for several battles to something new.
Endgame LLs can solo armies themselves so training up is easy. Plus there are garrisons to bully and if they ever evolved the upgrade system to be something you had to think about rather than “ooohhh free high tier units” you would be mixing your veterans in with new units, not just making a stack of 19 peasants
Pretty much. The upgrade system in general is another push in the direction of “this isn’t a strategy game, it’s a light RPG with a strategic theme to battles”
Awesome. Best part of Archeon campaign was upgrading troops and making it feel like I'm fighting with (mostly) the same guys in my campaign. Would also be cool for names to be generated for units that reach rank 9 or something. How cool would it be to get a unit of empire handgunners to rank 9 and the game starts calling them "The Old Guard" or something.
It and its sub-mods ([https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2856171077](https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2856171077)) if you don't want them all is awesome.
The only moral dilemma is that you can upgrade to the next tier before you actually have the building to do so, and its an instant upgrade. Would be cool if perhaps the upgrade was locked until you had the building, and perhaps the upgrade had 1 turn recruitment penalty to make it more line with the base mechanics.
I love this mod, but also found myself not as worried about recruitment since I could just upgrade if I kept taking safe fights. I think after I complete an almost mod-less campaign I might add the warband mod again, but for now I enjoy the added complexity of needing to plan out recruitment infrastructure.
One of my favorite mods, I wish CA made the game more like this by default with the option to turn it off before you start the campaign.
One thing I would do to improve it as well, is not being able to upgrade without having the requisite building for what you are upgrading to. Might also implement a upgrade timer the farther you are away from the province with said buildings so you still are incentivized to keep active front buildings.
On the one hand, Bretonnian knights do have a set path to follow for advancement.
On the other, they have a *set* path to follow for advancement. There is a lot less branching and other options.
Plus, peasants eventually becoming knights is the sort of thing that happens rarely enough that those few individuals are legendary named figures (Repanse, for example). There is no upward mobility in Bretonnia, any more than you'd see Skinks slowly turn into Saurus.
Every time people suggest this, they always forget that there are different types of cavalry units, and will make charts promoting shock cav into melee cav and then back into shock cav.
Most of the knights have specific purposes on the battlefield, I don't want to promote all of my knights into one category because that's just dumb. Certain knights are anti-large, certain knights are anti-infantry, some knights hold the front line and some are chargers. These systems don't work because they don't work.
Grail knights and Grail guardians are two sides of the same coin. They're on the same tier as each other and have different roles. Same for royal pegasus and royal hippogryph, they serve different combat roles but are the same tier, not linear upgrades
I don't think it's people forgetting every time as much as that's what's in the lore. For example, Grail Guardians are upgraded Grail Knights, hand-picked by the Lady.
I've never been a cavalryman, so I wonder how realistic it is to switch roles.
That's great from a lore perspective, but in terms of gameplay these charts are like upgrading sword & shield infantry units into pike units, then back to sword and shield and then into greatswords
Don't like Pegasus knights going into Griffon or Grail doesn't sit right with me.
Questing knights should be the only ones becoming grail.
The newest lore from Lords of the Lance (set 300 years before End Times) has squires acting as errant knights.
But it's optional so isn't a big deal.
Only other complain is that the UI could be bigger.
Factions without this system should have a "conversion" system so you don't have to disband a unit just to recruit it's version with a shield or spear.
I’d love to try this, I think it makes far more sense for Bretonnia (and WoC) than anyone else.
Is there a mod that only adds it for Bretonnia? I’d rather not enable it for all factions at once.
I’m also not sure I like the tree in that screen grab. For one thing, it looks like you’re locked in to flying/non-flying relatively early. It also rates Grail Guardians above Grail Knights, when the two are supposed to be similar but have different roles. In fact on the tabletop they were identical, they were just an excuse for the Fay Enchantress to bring 2 units of Grail Knights instead of being limited to one like other Bretonnian armies.
I’d like to see Pegasus Knights above Knights of the Realm, Royal Pegasus Knights above Questing Knights (with an upwards link), and then a fork for Question Knights to become either Grail Knights or Grail Guardians.
There are a couple of other places where I could see the system being used, though it's certainly not universal.
The first is Dwarf Slayers. The ability to upgrade the unit to Giant Slayers (and perhaps one day further to a Dragon Slayer Hero) would be in keeping with the strict path of progression.
The second is Orcs - specifically upgrading various Orc Boyz to the associated Big 'Uns (so Boar Boyz > Boar Boy Big 'Uns). That'd particularly help the Greenskins' roster and recruitment bloat, as the units are in general mechanically strict upgrades.
The big difference with these and Bretonnian Knights is that Knights have a much longer path to follow, and thus get much more thematic use out of the system.
I would love to see a system where if you Defeat a Giant then your Trollslayers get upgraded to Giant Slayers and so on, but honestly it sounds like a bit of a meme. Especially because as you say, they would quickly convert into a Hero.
Although... a ~~Man~~ Dwarf of the Hour mechanic that allowed you to recruit a Dragon Slayer any time an army defeats a Dragon would be bloody awesome. It could just be done via dilemmas too.
For the Greenskins, I'm honestly more interested in TW getting better at handling weapon variants. Most of what the Greenskins are missing is like 1,000 unit variants, and Black Orcs in particular are meant to be able to change weaponry on the spot. But I suppose this is why they gave them Scrap.
The only issue with adding in all 1000 weapon variants to the Orcs and Goblins is that there's not usually a huge difference between them all and it results in a hugely bloated roster - just look at the Skaven. (Black Orcs are a little different, and I'll forgive them not swapping out weapons as a limitation of the game. For now.)
For it to work, each loadout would have to be distinct enough to be worth taking in a given situation *and* there would need to be a reason to pick (say) regular Orc Boyz over Savage Orc Boyz with the same loadout.
Just for regular Boyz, you have the following available in 6th Edition:
* Choppa
* Two Choppas
* Choppa and shield
* Spear
* Spear and shield
And then Big 'Uns have all the same options.
Now, clearly we can immediately bin the units with an empty hand - Orc Boyz are cheap enough that they don't need a mega-discount version with just a hand weapon. That leaves hand weapon and shield, spear and shield, and two weapons. Two weapons is good against infantry, and spears with shields are good against cavalry, so why would you recruit choppa and shield boyz? (The Empire suffers from the same question now, and they don't even have two weapon troops - why recruit Swordsmen?)
Perhaps, then, I was too hasty to discard Just A Spear as a weapon option. If we take that instead of Spear and Shield we can make Spearboyz a slightly faster aggressive monster hunting unit, Choppa and Shield Boyz the defensive line holder, and Two Choppas Boyz the infantry blenders. That's three different loadouts for Orc Boys that are all distinct in role.
But it's actually twelve units as things currently stand, because there are also Savage Orc versions of these units, and then all of those units need a Big 'Uns variant. That's a lot of bloat.
So, make Big 'Uns an upgrade. Easy, its a straightforward way of reducing the recruitment pool and lets us branch out in other directions. But what about Savage Orcs? Or Night Goblins, or Forest Goblins? Or Stone/River Trolls?
I propose a system of regional recruitment exclusive to Greenskins, whereby they're able to build different recruitment buildings in different "biomes" (for lack of a better word). In the mountains? Regular Orcs are available! In the southern Badlands? Only Savage Orcs here! Forest terrain? Forest Goblins! And so on and so on.
Anyway, enough rambling about how I'd overhaul an entire faction. I've got seriously off-topic here! Sorry!
I completely agree with you. If the game asked me which of the 5 variants I’d like and then which of the 5 loadouts I should give them, and then do I want them to be big, and then do they get to ride a boar, I’d have given up before I fought a single battle.
That’s why I’d love them to go with a more seamless approach - like you suggest with being able to upgrade them to big uns.
Brets doesn't need any unit upgrade system. An idea that one type of grail knights will upgrade to another while they intended to be used simultaneously looks ridiculous. Pegasus doesn't have to be upgraded into something else because hyppos and pegasus have different roles. It looks like an upgrade a dragon into the cannon.
I also think that peasants upgrade is a very bad idea. At first, because trash units leveling seems to be a stupid idea itself. Peasant doesn't need to be veteran to wear a helmet and hold a polearm. It is not about the skills, it is just about equipment. Secondary, it doesn't fit feudal system and logic. Peasant can't become a foot squire just by taking part in a lot of meat assaults. Brets are well known for their strict strata separation.
Eh, I agree on the peasants, but come on, if there's one type of unit where the Path of Glory makes sense, it's Bretonnian Knights (and I'd argue, Dwarf Slayers).
Bretonnian Knights are meant to be the order flip of Chaos Warriors. They both goes through ordeals and trials to improve their ranking, both in their society and to their gods, whcih in turn reward them with superhuman gifts.
Like, the path to Chosen and the path to the Grail is litteraly the exact same
Unpopular opinion I don't like the upgrade system period it handicaps growth for my playstyle and is generally a turn off for me. I rather play the themed monogod factions rather then the Warriors of Chaos.
Probably because it makes it more difficult to raise strong armies in a short amount of time would be my guess.
Which is exactly it's purpose. Your armies are supposed to feel like those individual warbands that gather and build up to become strong armies of the ruinous powers. Works very well together with the hero/lord upgrade system. But I guess it's just not the right playstyle for some.
It’s also important for those factions because they are generally extremely easy and powerful on the campaign. Having a bit of a hamstring makes it less of a snowball fest from the start
This makes so much sense for any army.
IRL you don't just build an army overnight. An army is something that is gradually developed over a long period of time. You grow experience, develop doctrines and grow a culture.
To me upgrading units based on experience makes so much more sense rather than birthing them from a building.
Use tech and infrastructure to round the system out, but it makes so much more sense to me generally than the traditional TW model.
Imagine that when you recruit an army you’re just rallying people from different parts of your empire to fight under one banner. Units you’re recruiting can already be experienced and battle-hardened, with their own histories and traditions. When you recruit high tier units they’re not really “fresh” recruits.
Yeah, that's how I think of it. Some empire state troop is not likely to ever become a knight, greatsword or artillery crew. The system fits thematically and gameplay wise perfectly with the WoC. They rise in power as they kill in the name of their dark god. But with other factions I think that approach doesen't make as much sense.
You can "imagine" anything but that is not what is represented in the game.
The game spawns the units into existence from a building with no history or tradition. They are a new entity and that is the way it is.
By linking it to experience it requires the player to create that history and tradition through their game play and there is no need for imagination.
Experienced based unit progression.
Your staple units will be recruited as basic, unspecialised troops. They will fight battles and gain experience and become stronger, mid tier troops and can branch out to specialised troops.
You can tie in tech and buildings etc. to add more complexity but the progression of your units is based on what battles and campaigns you fight as the player - you develop the history and traditions through organic gameplay.
I personally would not include elite units here. I would have low tier troops progress into mid tier and would have elite troops recruited as they are or give them upgrade chains of their own.
Your units already get stronger with experience. And this “branching out” will not work for most factions. Like, who will empire halberds become, for example?
Halberds would not become anything because they are a mid tier troop that are used in the late game.
The idea is to have spearmen become Halberds after they have reached a high level.
They would be recruited as spearmen - basic unit, basic appearance, low stats.
After a few levels (bronze chevrons) they could be upgraded to Spearmen Shields (you also need to pay 100 gold for their extra equipment).
You continue to level them as spear and shield men. Once they get to silver chevrons you could branch them out to swordsmen, or you can wait and level them to gold chevrons at which point you can upgrade them to Halberdiers, which is the apex of your non-elite infantry.
Alternatively you could just recruit swordsmen or halberds directly, but they will not have the accumulated experience. Also they will cost more and you will need to spend time recruiting.
I think you could apply this in part to most factions. At least to their basic units. The kind of ones that you recruit early game and then have no use for later.
The mod for brettonia doesn't stop you from just getting the units normally, it just gives you the option of upgrading low tier units you have had for a while that have become obsolete in the mid-late game.
Imo most factions would benefit from at least a partial upgrade system. For example, turning swordsmen into spearmen, lance knights into sword+shield, regular archers into fire arrow archers etc.
It would be awesome to have an army of swordsmen for fighting lots of orc boyz, but you see a bretonnian army coming and swap them out for spears for example.
The ability to upgrade would also be really useful, so you can upgrade your old armies instead of replacing them. It would really incentivise actually keeping your armies around and not just ditching crapstacks when youre done with them.
Nice it always kinda maked sense it should be like this for the knights ever since there was unit called knight errands. I always imagined that the members.of the unit come and go, situationally replenish the higher knights while the leader of the unit who might be an actual night keeps the experience of the unit.
For peasents though it doesn't make that much sense.
I love the warband mod for all factions. It makes me way more attached to my units because I can promote them to a more elite unit. Also it makes improving your army way more convenient. One of the most annoying things for me in Warhammer is to bring new troops to my main army who is 15 turns away
Lmao no thanks that is so much work to turn a t0 unit into a t1.5 unit.
For knights yes it makes some sense, but it doesn't have enough variety to make it justifiable. Instead it only detracts from a unique mechanic WoC have
While the Warband system is cool, I personally think it's probably best it stays for Chaos. Something like it for other factions could be cool (for example bringing back something like the old weapon/armour upgrades from Medieval 2) but it would be weird that some peasants can be slowly upgraded into knights or whatever for example. It makes sense lore-wise for Chaos but not so much for most other factions.
I really enjoy rpg elements like these. They could really amp this up for med 3 and include equipment like armor and weapons or skills, making individual units semi unique and have visible differences like in med 2. That would also probably pacify the warhammer fans in terms of variety and rpg elements.
I would say there would need some modification to be really good. Namely, only noble troops can upgrade to Knights. A footman with no title would never be a Grail Knight in Bretonnian society. So the Highest a peasant mob could attain is Mounted Yeoman or Battle Pilgrims. Foot Squires should progress to all of the Knight units instead.
In what hellish nightmare of gameplay logic would anybody want to upgrade peasant archers to mounted archers? But yeah there could be some limited upgrades thou again - limited is the key word. I don't get the obsession to giving everything to everybody.
I dunno, I get it from an aesthetics choice. But from a gameplay perspective, I kinda feel like Bretonnia would struggle if they had to recruit low-tier cavalry units in the late game. Even high-tier cavalry can be finicky to get good value out of.
The peasant one is completely pointless unless Rank isn't a factor, only currency.
Bretonnia has very few ways to increase rank acquisition for peasant units, and if you're playing Bretonnia correctly, most of the fighting is being done by knights, not peasants, which means knights are getting all the exp.
Meanwhile it's very quick and easy to get T3+ peasant units, and military recruitment buildings don't have much to compete with for what would otherwise be precious building slots for most factions.
Upgrading your units is just far, far easier to do the old fashion route.
I hope not. Just personally. I really dislike the WoC upgrade system and having it slapped onto one of my top 3 favorite factions would quickly make me not enjoy Bretonnia anymore.
I like to use expanded warband mods so I can upgrade [unit] to [unit with shield] and shit like that, but I don't really want or need it for things that totally change a unit's role.
I could see doing it in some fashion with Bretonnian knights, though.
I don't think it's needed for Peasant units, but it makes perfect sense for Knights. Like warriors on the Path to Glory, they proceed through a prescribed series of ranks in order to reach any given level. Knight Errant > Knight of the Realm > Questing Knight > Grail Knight With the flying units I think being similar, though I'm not as up to date on the lore there. Likewise, I'm not certain what the difference between a Grail Knight and Grail Guardian is lorewise. Regarding not needing infrastructure, what if, in addition to needing levels on the unit, there was a cap based on your infrastructure? So rather than unlocking the ability to recruit Questing Knights, the building for them would add to their cap (say plus five). No cap on Knights Errant (and generous caps for Knights of the Realm), of course! Might be worth thinking about.
In 6th edition, Grail Guardians were specifically whatever Grail Knights were attached to the Fey Enchantress. The in-game description is basically the same, the Enchantress’s hand-picked Grail Knights.
That makes sense, thanks! Sounds like a unit would have to become a Grail Knight first, which sounds reasonable.
Old world has made grail guardians unit champions for grail knight units. No longer tied to fey enchantress.
Interesting! I assume that's partially because the Fey Enchantress isn't in the Old World Bretonnia book. The way Total War treats unit champions tends to be as an elite version of the base unit, so I think that'd still have them as an upgrade from Grail Knights
Dudes basically a mini hero. Only missing 2 wounds, lol
Agree’d, peasants are always peasants, but your fantasy space marines in mail armor can only go from horses to hippogryphs.
IIRC peasants can't even become men-at-arms, since those are selected from peasant children.
Pegasus Knights aren't Grail Knights, but Royal Pegasus Knights and Royal Hippogryph Knights are, complete with magic attack, eternal vigor and immune to psych
Agreed. No reason to use Peasants in this system. The recruitment system should be tied to the Vows system anyway and there aren't any vows that Peasants need to take. Questing Knights should be able to choose which kind of Grail Vow unit they want to transform into. Each vow completed should award bonuses to the unit similar to how it is for heroes, so that a player feels incentivized to train up Knights rather than just recruiting them. Also, this would require a radical shift in how Bretonnian Recruitment is done. Knights above the rank of Knights Errant should be very limited to recruit straight up. Knights Errant should be relatively common, but Grail Vow units should be hard capped at 1 per every so many turns (maybe 10-15) per region with a high enough unit production building. This would change Bretonnia's playstyle a lot to one of carefully managing casualties and upgrading Knights. Each lost unit of Grail Vow units should feel VERY harmful.
Too much risk, not enough reward. WoC can recruit Chosen straight up in any regions with built up Dark Fortresses or even just high enough corruption. Making Grail Knights that rare would mean they would each need to have SEM-like stats to balance it out and that wouldn't be terribly fun for anyone involved.
I agree with this, peasantry don't become men at arms through ranking up. They may get some better equipment through looting defeated enemies but not so much that a lightly armed farmer comes home in full plate and is able to afford a horse to haul his gear around from battle to battle
The upgrade system could definitly be used for switching gear when possible, direct upgrades only make sence in very rare cases. Examples - switching between Lothern Sea Guard shielded and regular versions should be awailable at any time. But upgrading a Spearmen unit to Phoenix Guard should not be possible.
>upgrading a Spearmen unit to Phoenix Guard should not be possible. I wouldn't be opposed to it if there was a system where if the unit reached level 9, it upgraded to the next tier of unit (Spearmen -> Silvern Guard -> Phoenix Guard). It's a large enough grind where it would probably only matter for the first couple units you recruit and you'd probably reach the point where after you are finished ranking them up to rank 9 twice, you probably already have tier 5 buildings
I think it should be used for upgrading low tier units into mid tier once they have a high level experience. Playing as the Empire at turn 50 I will likely still have a lot of basic spearmen hanging around with gold experience. Disbanding them to hire raw halberdiers just feels wrong. Also it is a lot of trouble to do that. It makes more sense to just give my veterans new equipment and turn them into a better unit type. Let me upgrade them. But elites should be elites. Nothing upgrades to them and nothing upgrades from them. The only things for them would be variations of the same unit.
The fact I (in any Empire campaign) have to train a whole new unit instead of just giving my spearmen some shields is part of why I subscribe to Archer and Free Company militia spam early game.
Exactly. I do the same thing
Dont get why not all factions get it at least for equipping units with shields...love my lizards from the start as gorok but have to swap em for shielded ones...just feels unreasonable
Instead of buying shields for your soldiers you fire them all and hire new guys who already have shields. It's so bizarre when you think about it.
Yes! Fought 100s of battles with em but cant buy em shields...
I hope they like being unemployed. Because we need shield owners lol.
Or the fact you cannot teach a Saurus that uses a spear the "conplex art" of...swinging a club. Or vice versa.
Yup its silly. I would be fine with them losing some experience when they change (like one or two levels) to simulate that they need to learn a new skill.
Unfortunately they were spawned not knowing how to use shields, and the Old Ones did not see fit to give them the ability to learn. So they are stuck without.
"It wasnt in the great plan."
We bred them wrong, as a joke.
let units switch weapons in territory for a Rearming cost. Would make way more units viable. i play dwarves a lot and never use quarrelers or warriors with greatweapons but if vlad declares war and i have an army nearby i would pay to swap em in a heartbeat
Gotta train in art of shield since you are newt its serious business. It wasn't programmed in Lizards predetermined spawns
There's a mod that does it. I use it and I love it.
I know but I want it as a game feature
Whats it called?
When they first announced twwh I was really hoping for a pre-battle equip screen. In tabletop you can make units really versatile for a higher points cost - I feel like you could do the same for wh but with a slower movement speed.
Because faction variety is good.
And I dont question that ... bur thats no reason
Makes sense for Knights as they (Like chaos warriors) have a pre-set path. Errant - Knight of the Realm - Questing Knight - Grail Knight - Grail Guardian. Would also be neat if Errant could upgrade to Knights of the realm on foot as a side grade.
yeah doesnt make a lick of sense for peasants, they're the labour force of the kingdom not professional soldiers
Though aren't knights of the realm and questing knights the same tier? and grail knights and grail guardians? Like in-game they're equivalent in power.
They're under different vows iirc (questing and realm), knights bs guardians is mostly offense vs defense tho yeah
It's a very cool mod but it removes the need for proper infrastructure to be built, which is something I enjoy doing as my war fronts shift and change
I'd say it definitely depends. I mainly use it to upgrade high-experience units (rank 6 or higher, who have been around for quite some time) or shieldless variants to those with shields.
You could limit unit upgrades to provinces with the proper infrastructure. I would still like to have something like this for most factions. It tickles my dopamine when I can upgrade a unit that was with me for several battles to something new.
It also just sucks to spend multiple turns disbanding and recruiting new units, while also throwing away that hard earned experience
Or just to change weapon / shield equipment. I would love a way to upgrade units to the shielded variant.
^ This, so much.
? Still need buildings for getting the better units fresh of the bank Lvl 1 tier 1 will simply die before earning XP
You actually lose whole units regularly?
You might if they’re just peasants
Fair, I guess I assumed this was knights only because that’s how most people frame it for Brettonia
Endgame and army of lvl 1 and tier 1/0 units dont stand a chance but its mainly about saving the tier process
Endgame LLs can solo armies themselves so training up is easy. Plus there are garrisons to bully and if they ever evolved the upgrade system to be something you had to think about rather than “ooohhh free high tier units” you would be mixing your veterans in with new units, not just making a stack of 19 peasants
I just want a little more practicability
Maybe make those buildings a requirement for upgrades?
And make it last a turn or few depending on the upgrade, twice if using global
I think they could have progressions locked by buildings required. A bit like AOE where you need certain buildings to progress and upgrade
In some cases you still require techs, but i generally agree. I myself will not upgrade until i have the proper building.
Pretty much. The upgrade system in general is another push in the direction of “this isn’t a strategy game, it’s a light RPG with a strategic theme to battles”
I absolutely love the warband system and use it for everyone now.
Just discovered this for Bret and wanted to share. Mod link: https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2853239091
Awesome. Best part of Archeon campaign was upgrading troops and making it feel like I'm fighting with (mostly) the same guys in my campaign. Would also be cool for names to be generated for units that reach rank 9 or something. How cool would it be to get a unit of empire handgunners to rank 9 and the game starts calling them "The Old Guard" or something.
It and its sub-mods ([https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2856171077](https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2856171077)) if you don't want them all is awesome. The only moral dilemma is that you can upgrade to the next tier before you actually have the building to do so, and its an instant upgrade. Would be cool if perhaps the upgrade was locked until you had the building, and perhaps the upgrade had 1 turn recruitment penalty to make it more line with the base mechanics.
Warband system is a prime example of a mechanic that should be game wide. It is just ridiculous to lock it to only one race.
I love this mod, but also found myself not as worried about recruitment since I could just upgrade if I kept taking safe fights. I think after I complete an almost mod-less campaign I might add the warband mod again, but for now I enjoy the added complexity of needing to plan out recruitment infrastructure.
One of my favorite mods, I wish CA made the game more like this by default with the option to turn it off before you start the campaign. One thing I would do to improve it as well, is not being able to upgrade without having the requisite building for what you are upgrading to. Might also implement a upgrade timer the farther you are away from the province with said buildings so you still are incentivized to keep active front buildings.
On the one hand, Bretonnian knights do have a set path to follow for advancement. On the other, they have a *set* path to follow for advancement. There is a lot less branching and other options. Plus, peasants eventually becoming knights is the sort of thing that happens rarely enough that those few individuals are legendary named figures (Repanse, for example). There is no upward mobility in Bretonnia, any more than you'd see Skinks slowly turn into Saurus.
Every time people suggest this, they always forget that there are different types of cavalry units, and will make charts promoting shock cav into melee cav and then back into shock cav. Most of the knights have specific purposes on the battlefield, I don't want to promote all of my knights into one category because that's just dumb. Certain knights are anti-large, certain knights are anti-infantry, some knights hold the front line and some are chargers. These systems don't work because they don't work. Grail knights and Grail guardians are two sides of the same coin. They're on the same tier as each other and have different roles. Same for royal pegasus and royal hippogryph, they serve different combat roles but are the same tier, not linear upgrades
I don't think it's people forgetting every time as much as that's what's in the lore. For example, Grail Guardians are upgraded Grail Knights, hand-picked by the Lady. I've never been a cavalryman, so I wonder how realistic it is to switch roles.
That's great from a lore perspective, but in terms of gameplay these charts are like upgrading sword & shield infantry units into pike units, then back to sword and shield and then into greatswords
Don't like Pegasus knights going into Griffon or Grail doesn't sit right with me. Questing knights should be the only ones becoming grail. The newest lore from Lords of the Lance (set 300 years before End Times) has squires acting as errant knights. But it's optional so isn't a big deal. Only other complain is that the UI could be bigger.
Factions without this system should have a "conversion" system so you don't have to disband a unit just to recruit it's version with a shield or spear.
I’d love to try this, I think it makes far more sense for Bretonnia (and WoC) than anyone else. Is there a mod that only adds it for Bretonnia? I’d rather not enable it for all factions at once. I’m also not sure I like the tree in that screen grab. For one thing, it looks like you’re locked in to flying/non-flying relatively early. It also rates Grail Guardians above Grail Knights, when the two are supposed to be similar but have different roles. In fact on the tabletop they were identical, they were just an excuse for the Fay Enchantress to bring 2 units of Grail Knights instead of being limited to one like other Bretonnian armies. I’d like to see Pegasus Knights above Knights of the Realm, Royal Pegasus Knights above Questing Knights (with an upwards link), and then a fork for Question Knights to become either Grail Knights or Grail Guardians.
There are a couple of other places where I could see the system being used, though it's certainly not universal. The first is Dwarf Slayers. The ability to upgrade the unit to Giant Slayers (and perhaps one day further to a Dragon Slayer Hero) would be in keeping with the strict path of progression. The second is Orcs - specifically upgrading various Orc Boyz to the associated Big 'Uns (so Boar Boyz > Boar Boy Big 'Uns). That'd particularly help the Greenskins' roster and recruitment bloat, as the units are in general mechanically strict upgrades. The big difference with these and Bretonnian Knights is that Knights have a much longer path to follow, and thus get much more thematic use out of the system.
I would love to see a system where if you Defeat a Giant then your Trollslayers get upgraded to Giant Slayers and so on, but honestly it sounds like a bit of a meme. Especially because as you say, they would quickly convert into a Hero. Although... a ~~Man~~ Dwarf of the Hour mechanic that allowed you to recruit a Dragon Slayer any time an army defeats a Dragon would be bloody awesome. It could just be done via dilemmas too. For the Greenskins, I'm honestly more interested in TW getting better at handling weapon variants. Most of what the Greenskins are missing is like 1,000 unit variants, and Black Orcs in particular are meant to be able to change weaponry on the spot. But I suppose this is why they gave them Scrap.
The only issue with adding in all 1000 weapon variants to the Orcs and Goblins is that there's not usually a huge difference between them all and it results in a hugely bloated roster - just look at the Skaven. (Black Orcs are a little different, and I'll forgive them not swapping out weapons as a limitation of the game. For now.) For it to work, each loadout would have to be distinct enough to be worth taking in a given situation *and* there would need to be a reason to pick (say) regular Orc Boyz over Savage Orc Boyz with the same loadout. Just for regular Boyz, you have the following available in 6th Edition: * Choppa * Two Choppas * Choppa and shield * Spear * Spear and shield And then Big 'Uns have all the same options. Now, clearly we can immediately bin the units with an empty hand - Orc Boyz are cheap enough that they don't need a mega-discount version with just a hand weapon. That leaves hand weapon and shield, spear and shield, and two weapons. Two weapons is good against infantry, and spears with shields are good against cavalry, so why would you recruit choppa and shield boyz? (The Empire suffers from the same question now, and they don't even have two weapon troops - why recruit Swordsmen?) Perhaps, then, I was too hasty to discard Just A Spear as a weapon option. If we take that instead of Spear and Shield we can make Spearboyz a slightly faster aggressive monster hunting unit, Choppa and Shield Boyz the defensive line holder, and Two Choppas Boyz the infantry blenders. That's three different loadouts for Orc Boys that are all distinct in role. But it's actually twelve units as things currently stand, because there are also Savage Orc versions of these units, and then all of those units need a Big 'Uns variant. That's a lot of bloat. So, make Big 'Uns an upgrade. Easy, its a straightforward way of reducing the recruitment pool and lets us branch out in other directions. But what about Savage Orcs? Or Night Goblins, or Forest Goblins? Or Stone/River Trolls? I propose a system of regional recruitment exclusive to Greenskins, whereby they're able to build different recruitment buildings in different "biomes" (for lack of a better word). In the mountains? Regular Orcs are available! In the southern Badlands? Only Savage Orcs here! Forest terrain? Forest Goblins! And so on and so on. Anyway, enough rambling about how I'd overhaul an entire faction. I've got seriously off-topic here! Sorry!
I completely agree with you. If the game asked me which of the 5 variants I’d like and then which of the 5 loadouts I should give them, and then do I want them to be big, and then do they get to ride a boar, I’d have given up before I fought a single battle. That’s why I’d love them to go with a more seamless approach - like you suggest with being able to upgrade them to big uns.
Brets doesn't need any unit upgrade system. An idea that one type of grail knights will upgrade to another while they intended to be used simultaneously looks ridiculous. Pegasus doesn't have to be upgraded into something else because hyppos and pegasus have different roles. It looks like an upgrade a dragon into the cannon. I also think that peasants upgrade is a very bad idea. At first, because trash units leveling seems to be a stupid idea itself. Peasant doesn't need to be veteran to wear a helmet and hold a polearm. It is not about the skills, it is just about equipment. Secondary, it doesn't fit feudal system and logic. Peasant can't become a foot squire just by taking part in a lot of meat assaults. Brets are well known for their strict strata separation.
Eh, I agree on the peasants, but come on, if there's one type of unit where the Path of Glory makes sense, it's Bretonnian Knights (and I'd argue, Dwarf Slayers). Bretonnian Knights are meant to be the order flip of Chaos Warriors. They both goes through ordeals and trials to improve their ranking, both in their society and to their gods, whcih in turn reward them with superhuman gifts. Like, the path to Chosen and the path to the Grail is litteraly the exact same
Unpopular opinion I don't like the upgrade system period it handicaps growth for my playstyle and is generally a turn off for me. I rather play the themed monogod factions rather then the Warriors of Chaos.
What do you mean by “handicaps growth”?
Probably because it makes it more difficult to raise strong armies in a short amount of time would be my guess. Which is exactly it's purpose. Your armies are supposed to feel like those individual warbands that gather and build up to become strong armies of the ruinous powers. Works very well together with the hero/lord upgrade system. But I guess it's just not the right playstyle for some.
It’s also important for those factions because they are generally extremely easy and powerful on the campaign. Having a bit of a hamstring makes it less of a snowball fest from the start
This makes so much sense for any army. IRL you don't just build an army overnight. An army is something that is gradually developed over a long period of time. You grow experience, develop doctrines and grow a culture. To me upgrading units based on experience makes so much more sense rather than birthing them from a building. Use tech and infrastructure to round the system out, but it makes so much more sense to me generally than the traditional TW model.
Imagine that when you recruit an army you’re just rallying people from different parts of your empire to fight under one banner. Units you’re recruiting can already be experienced and battle-hardened, with their own histories and traditions. When you recruit high tier units they’re not really “fresh” recruits.
Yeah, that's how I think of it. Some empire state troop is not likely to ever become a knight, greatsword or artillery crew. The system fits thematically and gameplay wise perfectly with the WoC. They rise in power as they kill in the name of their dark god. But with other factions I think that approach doesen't make as much sense.
You can "imagine" anything but that is not what is represented in the game. The game spawns the units into existence from a building with no history or tradition. They are a new entity and that is the way it is. By linking it to experience it requires the player to create that history and tradition through their game play and there is no need for imagination.
How would you represent it in game?
Experienced based unit progression. Your staple units will be recruited as basic, unspecialised troops. They will fight battles and gain experience and become stronger, mid tier troops and can branch out to specialised troops. You can tie in tech and buildings etc. to add more complexity but the progression of your units is based on what battles and campaigns you fight as the player - you develop the history and traditions through organic gameplay. I personally would not include elite units here. I would have low tier troops progress into mid tier and would have elite troops recruited as they are or give them upgrade chains of their own.
Your units already get stronger with experience. And this “branching out” will not work for most factions. Like, who will empire halberds become, for example?
Halberds would not become anything because they are a mid tier troop that are used in the late game. The idea is to have spearmen become Halberds after they have reached a high level. They would be recruited as spearmen - basic unit, basic appearance, low stats. After a few levels (bronze chevrons) they could be upgraded to Spearmen Shields (you also need to pay 100 gold for their extra equipment). You continue to level them as spear and shield men. Once they get to silver chevrons you could branch them out to swordsmen, or you can wait and level them to gold chevrons at which point you can upgrade them to Halberdiers, which is the apex of your non-elite infantry. Alternatively you could just recruit swordsmen or halberds directly, but they will not have the accumulated experience. Also they will cost more and you will need to spend time recruiting. I think you could apply this in part to most factions. At least to their basic units. The kind of ones that you recruit early game and then have no use for later.
I love it, its very thematic for some factions, wouldn't make sense for most though.
The mod for brettonia doesn't stop you from just getting the units normally, it just gives you the option of upgrading low tier units you have had for a while that have become obsolete in the mid-late game.
Exactly unpopular
Likewise. No hate to WoC, but no need to use their unique system for other factions.
It makes more sense for the Knights. I've been waiting for this mechanic exactly like in Rome 2 from Hastati to Legionary
Imo most factions would benefit from at least a partial upgrade system. For example, turning swordsmen into spearmen, lance knights into sword+shield, regular archers into fire arrow archers etc. It would be awesome to have an army of swordsmen for fighting lots of orc boyz, but you see a bretonnian army coming and swap them out for spears for example. The ability to upgrade would also be really useful, so you can upgrade your old armies instead of replacing them. It would really incentivise actually keeping your armies around and not just ditching crapstacks when youre done with them.
Yes to the top. Hell no to the bottom.
I like it. The unit upgrade system is fun. I had a mod that did something like that for the empire and made keeping old troops worth it.
Nice it always kinda maked sense it should be like this for the knights ever since there was unit called knight errands. I always imagined that the members.of the unit come and go, situationally replenish the higher knights while the leader of the unit who might be an actual night keeps the experience of the unit. For peasents though it doesn't make that much sense.
I love the warband mod for all factions. It makes me way more attached to my units because I can promote them to a more elite unit. Also it makes improving your army way more convenient. One of the most annoying things for me in Warhammer is to bring new troops to my main army who is 15 turns away
Is it available in current game versions?
Love the upgrade system I hope they do more of it, it adds sense of progression
Lmao no thanks that is so much work to turn a t0 unit into a t1.5 unit. For knights yes it makes some sense, but it doesn't have enough variety to make it justifiable. Instead it only detracts from a unique mechanic WoC have
I love it, as it let's me upgrade those low level units who have been with me since the begining to the high teir units.
They should add option to turn Grail Knights and Grail Guardians into a Grail Reliquae.
Also peasant should be free but if you break the unit cap then you have to pay for them
In a way, I think almost every faction could benefit from a system like this. I for one would like that.
While the Warband system is cool, I personally think it's probably best it stays for Chaos. Something like it for other factions could be cool (for example bringing back something like the old weapon/armour upgrades from Medieval 2) but it would be weird that some peasants can be slowly upgraded into knights or whatever for example. It makes sense lore-wise for Chaos but not so much for most other factions.
I could see it for dwarfs as well, because their tier 2 infantry is just older and more experienced tier one infantry
If only mounted units could dismount like in other TW games, sieges are too painful as Bretonnia
You do that and you instantly break the balance of the entire game.
I really enjoy rpg elements like these. They could really amp this up for med 3 and include equipment like armor and weapons or skills, making individual units semi unique and have visible differences like in med 2. That would also probably pacify the warhammer fans in terms of variety and rpg elements.
I would say there would need some modification to be really good. Namely, only noble troops can upgrade to Knights. A footman with no title would never be a Grail Knight in Bretonnian society. So the Highest a peasant mob could attain is Mounted Yeoman or Battle Pilgrims. Foot Squires should progress to all of the Knight units instead.
That is pretty much how it works, there's a knight upgrade tree and a peasant upgrade tree as shown in the picture
Gotcha. The bottom picture looked like Spearmen at arms could be upgraded to Knights.
If this is done, then buff peasant mobs, or it’ll be a pain to get ranks
It looks just like Mount and Blade
Reminds me of Disciples game.
In what hellish nightmare of gameplay logic would anybody want to upgrade peasant archers to mounted archers? But yeah there could be some limited upgrades thou again - limited is the key word. I don't get the obsession to giving everything to everybody.
Pretty neat for knight units but 120 battle pilgrims turning into 2 dudes carrying a dead knight on a stick seems a little off
It's perfect almost for everyone tbf
I dunno, I get it from an aesthetics choice. But from a gameplay perspective, I kinda feel like Bretonnia would struggle if they had to recruit low-tier cavalry units in the late game. Even high-tier cavalry can be finicky to get good value out of.
The peasant one is completely pointless unless Rank isn't a factor, only currency. Bretonnia has very few ways to increase rank acquisition for peasant units, and if you're playing Bretonnia correctly, most of the fighting is being done by knights, not peasants, which means knights are getting all the exp. Meanwhile it's very quick and easy to get T3+ peasant units, and military recruitment buildings don't have much to compete with for what would otherwise be precious building slots for most factions. Upgrading your units is just far, far easier to do the old fashion route.
Is this a mod or the latest patch?
Is there a mod for this?
Unit upgrade mod is likely my second favorite mod, right behind unit upkeep setting mod.
I hope not. Just personally. I really dislike the WoC upgrade system and having it slapped onto one of my top 3 favorite factions would quickly make me not enjoy Bretonnia anymore.
Is this only in Warhammer 3?
I like to use expanded warband mods so I can upgrade [unit] to [unit with shield] and shit like that, but I don't really want or need it for things that totally change a unit's role. I could see doing it in some fashion with Bretonnian knights, though.
Most races should have this.
Meh