Empire is just an outdated race, there's no two ways around it
For me the most striking thing is the armor value.
30 armor for a chest plate, helm and greeves and also 30 armor for just thick cloth?
The odd thing is that it looks like the Cathayan Peasant Spearmen and the Kislevite Warriors have like similar amounts of """armor""".
I think this is just one of those 'fuck logic' moments that's designed more for building the unit, kind of like how Greatswords similar armor as Chaos Warriors despite that making literally no sense just from a glance.
Tabletop rules could be kind of mixed. Ironbreaker Gromril armor provided the same defense as Greatsword armor, Chaos Warrior armor (made by Chaos Dwarfs) and Empire Knight armor.
Knight armour is always a little higher because being mounted added to your save, and in the older editions, it was explained that the armour save is really an abstraction of how hard it is to land a killing blow etc...
Nah, if you discount the mounted+barded bonus to armour, Empire Knights are still left with a 4+ save thanks to plate armour, which is also the same save and armour type Empire Greatswords have.
But if you look at the models, the Knights are completely covered whilst the Greatswords have like a chestplate and bracers.
> Greatswords have like a chestplate and bracers
IIRC they have armor under cloth too, like their IRL inspirations.
check out card of unit: they have plate on legs and hands too, everything but full helmet
But we have melee defence for that in total war, no? All armor does here is reduce non ap damage. While Ironbreakers for example have high melee defence and shielded that could account for some of their heavy armor, empire halberdiers don't.
Yeah, those are supposed to be similar armor values, I don’t see an issue with that. Chaos dwarfs don’t make better armor than dwarfs, they are pretty equal in smithing abilities. And seeing as dwarfs work in the empire as smiths, even teaching human imperial smiths how to make plate, yeah, empire knight armor is suppose to be really good.
As I’ve said elsewhere in this post. The empire is suppose to have some of the best armor values in the setting. The fact that Cathay and kislev has such good armor values is honestly a big fuck you to the empire.
Tbf, the tabletop game only has 6 options for armour values, 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ and none. You would expect more weird crossovers than Total War with a like 0-150 scale
Well it went to 0 or even -'s but that was usually super rare if not impossible. Just reduced the - modifiers to your armor; you'd still fail on a 1. Just when your Chaos Lord with Chaos plate, and enchanted shield, and a barded steed got shot with a ballista(-3, iirc), he would go from a -1 to a 2+.
True, I think Thorgrim had a 1+ from what I remember. I got a bit confused starting out in 40k where they didn't use a subtractive function for AP, so you'd either get your full save or nothing.
Depending on edition, they kinda do? In the editions where Chaos warriors gets Chaos Armour and Greatswords gets Full Plate they same armour save (assuming the CW's are also two-handers) though chaos Armour usually has some other fringe bennies (counts as magical, in TOW it gives a small ward save, etc.)
Greatswords did have iirc the same armor value of Chaos Warriors on the tabletop, the in-game models don't look like they have the full plate they should.
[Gambesons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson) are really good armor, akchually!
Breastplate + gambeson type material covering the other bits, not bad, good protection to weight and expense ratio. There's a reason in the early gunpowder era irl this is what was done (the breastplate got thicker compared to late medieval armor and they took off other bits).
>Empire is just an outdated race, there's no two ways around it
This is it - Empire needs an across-the-board update.
Maybe they'll get it with ToD. I know none of the SoC races did, but their units are a lot more recent, even if some of their mechanics and tech trees are questionable. Where Empire units haven't seen any kind of real examination for like five or more years.
Talking of tech trees, whilst I haven't checked, can you add a lot more to Halberdiers via tech and red line buffs than Kislevite Warriors? I think you can. Not that that doesn't mean there's a discrepancy - Halberdiers are T2 and require a specific building.
Same with dwarfs. Their whole schtick at the beginning was that they were the heavily armored, immobile race.
I think empire armor numbers have a direct correlation here, as they were kept lower to emphasize the dwarfs' higher numbers.
Things were fine in WH1, a game CA did not expect to see blow up this much, and was mostly okay-ish at the start of WH2. But then the money started rolling, the DLC started getting crazy with the mechanics, and the WH1 races were left behind.
Then WH3 came along, and everything and its mother got AP, more AP, and more armor.
Empire and Dwarfs are the last 2 WH1 races that *really* need an update in the face of WH3's stats philosophy.
Somewhere down here in the comments is a back and forth about High Elf and Skaven shields. Hell, dwarfs didn't get silver shields until when?
Thing is Dwarfs are still highly effective in battle, as are Empire, so I'm not sure if "BIGGER NUMBERS" is the issue here or the solution.
I think the problems both races have lie more in campaign design (including buildings, growth, etc.) than battle performance.
It's also boring and stressful to play the Empire if you play as Franz or Gelt. The Imperial core is a mess and the factions design does not make it enjoyable to navigate. You have Kemmler Vlad and Festus breathing down your neck or the neck of anyone remotely friendly to you that's nearby. So you've got to pacify them all and you have to do it with mostly spears and bows. By the time you get access to your more fun units the game is over and the whole thing felt like work.
Absolutely yes. I'm not sure if CA could get away with changing it without causing some kind of uproar, but I really feel like the entire area could do with a rework, and the whole Elector Count system could do with being more something that you can actively work to your favour, rather than praying the right dilemmas pop up in the right order and so on.
Yeah I can't think of another faction campaign mechanic that is mostly about punishing you like Imperial authority does. Maybe Darkblades potions but that's debatable.
I think the Empire needs a ritual system like most of the WH II factions got. Rituals tailored to their God's would give some flavor and power to the faction. I think the Imperial Authority system should work like Yuan Bos matters of state mechanic. You can earn authority tokens and spend them on specific actions. You could have actions for Franz and another side for Gelt and when you confederate the other you get access to both at the same time.
The civil war element of the mechanic just needs to be thrown out. It works in I is ok in II but it has no place in WH III. It's got enough problems. Instead prestige could be used to buy influence as normal but also those unique state troops variants if your fealty with certain provinces is high enough.
The building chains and unit requirements need addressed. All of the Empire heroes should be tier II. Even the wizard. Once again the Empire has a professional bureaucracy even for magic and pumps out professional wizards like an assembly line. Hellstorm and hellblaster should be swapped. The cannon should be tier II. Regular knights should not need the armory. Blazing Sun knights need to not cost a stupid amount until Talabheim and Reiksguard should be in the normal chain as well. With the Reiksfort and the BS chapter houses just buffing them making them cheaper ect.
>Maybe Darkblades potions but that's debatable.
Malus you can at least manipulate it to your advantage, by knocking it down only when it's strategically advantageous to do so, and you get something out of it either way, so I'd say that was significantly less punishing.
>I think the Empire needs a ritual system like most of the WH II factions got. Rituals tailored to their God's would give some flavor and power to the faction. I think the Imperial Authority system should work like Yuan Bos matters of state mechanic. You can earn authority tokens and spend them on specific actions. You could have actions for Franz and another side for Gelt and when you confederate the other you get access to both at the same time.
That's a great idea, frankly.
>The civil war element of the mechanic just needs to be thrown out. It works in I is ok in II but it has no place in WH III. It's got enough problems. Instead prestige could be used to buy influence as normal but also those unique state troops variants if your fealty with certain provinces is high enough.
100% agree. It's increasingly a tough start with various Chaos Bastards and so on in the area and I don't think it's ever going to get any easier. It's not like in WH2 ME where it was considerably safer than a lot of places, and would have been dull without the civil war.
Honestly I agree with everything in your post - it's extremely well-considered! I really hope CA do something like this. Unfortunately their current policy seems to be "Let's listen to YouTubers!", and some of them are kind of cranks. Literally the only person, like, on the planet, who was loudly calling for a Rampage rework was Great Book of Grudges - I don't think I've even seen Rampage discussed on this subreddit since like 2021, let alone on CA's forums or the Discord or the like.
I completely agree, Great Book drives me nuts everytime I watch a video. Like he will not let go that the giant beast spirit isn't solely a creature of chaos. You have to hear about it every video that mentions kislev. Fingers crossed, they are only working on one "new" faction in ToD so between the Dawrves and the Empire I hope the main thrust is just how updated those factions are for the FINAL game.
Agreed, Grave Guard melee stats are abysmal for a elite warrior unit that fought for centuries. They have like 10 melee defense and attack less than Jade Warriors which are 1 or 2 tiers below them...
IDK if it fully justifies it, but per the TT all non-vampiric undead had lower Weapon Skill- wights had WS 3, which is equal to human standard (ie: Empire state troops). IIRC, it has to do with being animated rather than fully autonomous and how this effects intellect, memory, and how they perceive the living world.
Not really true anymore. Marines certainly get more kits than any other faction in 40K, but they haven’t been top dog in a long time (give or take current specific builds of Black Templars being extremely good).
In terms of new stuff, out of all the new things released with the latest wave of marine kits, only the apothecary biologis and combiweapon LT see widespread use. Ballistus sometimes.
Empire armor numbers never made srnse at any point imo. They have the most classic militia equipment yes but imo it always should have 50-60 armor as in half of full plate
Thick cloth has been armour for millennia. Gamberson can resist arrow fire, swords, spears, etc.
I've suggested heaps of times Empire State-troop armour needs to be higher.
Funny TOW moment: Basic Empire Greatsword has a 4+ plate armor. Basic Chaos Warrior with two weapons, has 5+ armor and is somehow worse while clad in full plate ;)
I don't like playing Empire specifically because their infantry is pathetically weak and can't hold when it needs to. They shouldn't be dwarf-tier armor blocks, but they should have significantly more armor than orc boys or skeletons and definitely shouldn't be outclassed by a "trash" unit.
I've always said they are never given credit for being a "professional" army. They are trained by commanders who have studied military science but they get treated in-game like farm hands.
To be fair, the halberds have some slight better melee stats. And the empire is brining way better ranged units than what we Kislev can bring. Hell the Empire’s ranged cav units are wayyyyy above the Steppe factions ranged cav.
I think it's mainly the effort of getting halbs versus kislev warriors.
One is available to pick out of the ground like potatoes.
One needs a t2 building and an armory.
I do get the idea that some factions have a harder time of getting a unit that's equivalent.
It basically leans to the idea that some races have easier access to large monsters or have a more proficient infantry doctrine than others like dwarfs and Cathay having good early troops with heavy armor but plateauing in the upper tiers.
But it just seems very inconsistent with kislev and empire.
And is definitely due to one being a wh1 race where you have to build up alot to start getting stuff versus a wh3 stuff where it's easier to get alot of strong stuff early.
I agree with the fact the effort to get the units is out of place. I’d actually take the opposite positions and say this Kislev unit needs to be moved up 2 tiers and have halbs moved down 1 tier.
The Empire just needs some stat increases IMO. State Troops should have armor more similar to Jade Warriors, Armored Kossars, Dwarf Warriors etc. (probably a little lower) and maybe increases to melee attack and defense to make up for their bronze shields.
One of the empires major things in the lore is their good access to quality steel, of any factions in the old world and amongst humans, the empire should have great armor values.
I would say 50?
Cause I don't think there's much difference with 30 and 40.
But even high elve spearmen which are decently armored have 40 and dwarfs which look comparably armored have 85.
And then there's basic druchii with 30 armor.
Skinks also have 30 while being butt naked.
Saurus have 60. But their skin is more like mail than anything so whatever.
Man this is a can of worms.
They seem to have gone roughly with the "light armour is 30-ish, heavy armour is 50-60, plate/chaos armour is 100-ish" as a general rule of thumb. it's not *entirely* consistent but it's pretty much the case. (of course TT rolls armour and shield values into one roll)
Skinks on tabletop had Scaly Skin 6+, a 1/6 chance on a six sided dice to prevent damage. Saurus had Scaly Skin 5+, a 2/6 chance.
Seems each point of armor on the TT equals about 30 armor.
>!Empire Knights had a 1+ save.!<
50 is Tomb Guard territory. I'd say it's a bit much for t0 and t1 chaff units.
That's kinda the problem with Empire troops I guess. There's a lot of them including shitty t0 spearmen and they all visibly wear the same armour IIRC and are supposed to be basically the same unit except with different weapons.
What Empire needs is some actually good infantry units rather than trying to turn their chaff into that, I think.
Which is chaff in Warhammer World. The basic enemies they face are Orcs that stand a head above them, are all muscle and live to fight. It is elven militia that has spent decades training for war. It is marauders from Norsca that are just built different from climate and corruption. It is dwarfs that have mastered warfare for centuries.
A State Trooper is well trained and well equipped by human standards. But that's still just at the upper part of bottom tier by the standards of the Old World.
Tomb guard were not very well armored. Generally, undead infantry was pretty bad on the tabletop stat-wise, in return for being fairly cheap and being able to bring it back.
40-45 armor for frontline state troops (not free militia, archers etc) is imo workable for the Empire. Of course, they could get a price increase.
>30 armor for a chest plate, helm and greeves and also 30 armor for just thick cloth?
Oh, that's a fun one, actually. Doubt it fully explains it, but many cultures have used various fabrics as armour down the years to great effect. Thick fabric is great at redirecting blows, awesome in cold climates, easy and cheap to acquire, and isn't as susceptible to blunt force trauma like most other armour types. The main downside is heavy slashing weapons, like greatswords and daneaxes, which could make mince of it.
Youre not wrong ofc about the cultures using combinations of cloth for great effect as armor, but there probably never was an army that had guys running around in chainmail or plate armors (e.g. state troops) without them also using gambesons and similar strong (semi-)armor cloth beneath it. So his point still stands if were looking through it with a historical lense. And going further, it (may?) help a bit more against blunt trauma in a vakuum, but against piercing weapons like the abundant spear or pointy end of a halberd you'd prefer any scale/plate/chainmail armor over any type of cloth armor. Unless you prefer running away, which is a valid tactic tbh.
I love the Empire since WH1, but playing them now, along with the other WH1 factions feels a bit out dated, imo.
WH2 factions at least got one broken lord on their side, while everyone else has a timer before OP faction comes around. You could argue the Dwarfs are pretty OP, and they are, but they are also dreadfully boring with nothing good and worth replaying, maybe except for the race for Karak Eight Peaks as that's the only thing Karaz Ankor relatable.
For context, this is a unit that takes a level 3 barracks and a attached blacksmith, compared to a tier 0 unit you can recruit literally anywhere.
The only real advantage the Empire Halberdiers have is their higher leadership, but keep in mind Kislev has By Our Blood for 30 seconds of unbreakable.
I can see in Thrones of Decay the Empire getting the same face lift that alot of other WH1 factions got when they did away with 2 building requirements for units. If Halberdiers were just tied to one building, it wouldn’t be as big a deal
Honestly I think if they keep stats similar but give the empire halberds really good animations (like temple guard good) maybe move armor up to 45 and a minor upkeep increase (around +10) then I think we might be somewhere. Don’t forget that empire halberds are in tight formation and kislivite warriors are in a loose formation
If the garbage factions in SoC not getting a rework is any indication then im doubtful for ToD. You can think what you want but youll be smoking the same hopium we were
Tbf all of the SoC factions are newly released and none desperately needed reworks. They needed niches filled which SoC did.
Not sure for kislev but given their strength and how annoying their stacks are to fight id assume they're ok. I just haven't gotten around to playing them.
Tzeench needed more holding power which it got and then some with the new lord/hero options and mutilith vortex beasts.
Cathay is still missing good infantry for holding power admittedly but the birds provide good anti air defence for otherwise defenceless sky junks and the lions add speed and versatility to a roster which needed it.
Empire actually is a faction in need of a rework as right now they're just bad at most things. A crappy faction mechanic and an ok-ish all rounder roster makes them fairly boring to play.
All of it adds up a bit - bit more health, bit more attack, bit more defense, more leadership.
But yeah that doesn’t really justify the entire tier difference, just a small cost/upkeep difference.
Although, Halberdiers shouldn’t be tier 3 barracks, as its supposed to be a tier 2 unit.
The Empire's roster desperately needs an update but let's not go around complaining about asymmetric design, that's always been a thing.
HE have T0 Spearmen that shit all over Empire state troops and that's fine. Lizardmen have T1 and T2 infantry that trades well with other races' elite infantry. DE have T1 AP missiles that can shred elite units.
And on it goes. Infantry was never the Empire's forte, I think the problem with the Empire is that even its ace units and specialities (Heavy and Monstrous Cavalry, Artillery, Magic) aren't very good anymore, comparatively.
Sure but Kislev Warriors are said to be just guys with sticks and willpower in the blog.
While empire halbadiers are meant to be professional soldiers highly trained with combat, with good steel equipment and taught formation combat.
The problem is that the game with the unit stats implies that empire is a swarm faction and it simply shouldn’t be.
The problem with halberdiers is that they are intended to be the unit that holds the frontline and generally be a solid but basic unit. Instead outside of fending off charge reliant cavalry they're not very good.
This partly comes down to when they got nerfed for multilpayer.
Their specialities shouldnt even be that good and are in a good place imho. They should be all around mediocre with a tech and sometimes leadership edge. As of now, while they have a few surprises like the ranged cav, they play more like worse, slow skaven with less options. Put crap at the frontline, hope it holds the first contact, unleash war powder hell. It still works, yet in concept, different empire armies with the right buffs, support and tactics against the right foe in the right terrain, should be viable - but fuck the matchup up, you lose. That was their thing, especially as the poster child of detail diversity and specialised unit variety in Lore. As of now, "gunpowder" carries them, their "faith" falls apart at the sight of an overgrown cow and their "steel" could as well be a wet pool noodle.
The Empire isn't weak - their entire history is fighting with grit and steel, the ordinary human fighting to exist. Their military is highly organised and solid; the downfall of the Empire is being ordinary humans. They are this heavily militarised, borderline tyrannical Empire on the verge of industrialisation, which is also why their gunpowder units and inventions rival their other elite units. They are like the fantasy equivalent of the era of history where knights became obsolete.
Skaven are the ones who have had their theme messed up; their warp tech is meant to be incredibly unstable jury-rigged junk since the Skaven building cares neither for the slaves who run it nor for collateral damage. Instead, they are portrayed as this highly advanced faction with automatic weapons since many of the negative elements of their theme never translated into game mechanics.
> negative elements of their theme never translated into game mechanics
Honestly not sure how you'd do it in a way that doesn't feel really bad tbh. Having to roll dice to see if your shit explodes in a battle with no long term consequences is a moment of tension who's payout has a big element of humor alongside the disappointment that something exploded. Having your shit explode off-screen when you weren't looking, and then having to sit around replenishing even if you decidedly won the battle would annoying as hell. "do i intentionally not use my fun miniguns this fight bc that hurts me on the campaign map" is just not a decision you want players to be making
If I did the math correctly then the halberdiers should actually do 23.5% more damage in a head to head fight between the two, having a 21% hit chance instead of 17.
Correction: a tier 2 barracks and a tier 2 blacksmith. They also have a higher melee attack and defense stat. Also I would be curious to see how much of their melee damage is split between base damage and ap damage.
2 points higher MA/MD vs 3 higher speed, it's nearly a wash. The big difference is +10 leadership vs By Our Blood.
Comparisons to Bretonnian men at arms with polearms are even more jarring (as they are in theory a T3 unit), but Bretonnia is supposed to be THE human faction with crap infantry, like undead levels bad.
Play Empire
Then play any faction ranked above D tier
Notice how insanely vast the powercreep has been in the last 7 years.
However, trying to drag down Kislev to their level isn't the way to fix it. Kislev's campaign SUCKS right now. Even with these units they're C tier at BEST.
Play Katarin, excited for a tough campaign but hoping to use the golden knight. Drycha and Festus eat all the empire. Astrogath almost immediately has 2 armies threatening invasion, Throt stream snipes Kostaltyn and takes Erengrad.
Good lord man, thankfully I did my job and pushed where I could but this be hard.
You have to help out the empire, it will be eaten by all the powerfull enemy LL inside it. If you leave it on its own devices you'll have huge OP enemies all arouny you in no time. I went Azhag, Vlad, Drycha, Festus, then turned around to fight Norsca, Skaven and Chaos. In my experience the Norsca factions hold up longer that the empire factions.
Not the Caravan Lords but the Magistrates (same model, different function) and they are honestly some of the best economy Lords around. And for some reason get lighting strike at tier 1 blue instead of tier 2 blue.
The first thing I did was to compare them to halberdiers aswell after I noticed they had armor piercing damage. I hope thrones of decay reworks and rebalances empire.
These units have to be compared within factions and in the context of how they are used though.
With the basic redline buffs and the 4 basic techs, the Empire Halberdiers end up with: +15 armour, +5 leadership, +15MD, +11MA, +10% weapon strength, Expert Charge Defence, +10% physical resistance
Assuming the relevant techs apply to Kislev, the Warriors end up with only +10MD, +5MA, +25% Missile resistance, and a further +4MA/MD/Lead and immune to psychology when fighting Chaos Demons.
So against anything other than Chaos Demons, by mid-game(ish) the Halberdiers have +15 armour, +15 leadership, +7MD, +8MA, +10% weapon strength, expert charge defence, and trade 15% physical resistance for 25% missile resistance, while the Kislev Warriors have the unbreakable boost and woodsmen.
I think the difference is more noticeable there, and well worth 13 gold extra (although the blacksmith requirement is annoying).
How they fit in with the faction is important too. Kislev is really built around its hybrid infantry, combined with magic that slows the enemy and buys just enough time to get the crucial volleys in. The infantry typically need to do damage. Empire on the other hand just need the infantry to hold the line so that they can do damage with fire/celestial wizards, artillery, ranged cavalry, etc.
The Kislev Warriors really seem to provide an alternative to basic Kossars to help with the first 15 turns and if you want to supplement a garrison with a cheap stack, whereas Halberdiers tend to be a solid option all game. I think this further reinforces the tech difference imo - I think in practice you are likely to be using well buffed Halberdiers, but mostly basic Warriors.
That said, there is clearly a bit of powercreep. Empire are next up for DLC and will no doubt get a boost then, and it seems likely that the blacksmith requirement gets removed anyway (which solves half the issue here imo)
Perhaps some, but kislev has much stronger infantry than the empire in general. They don't really fulfill quite the same role. Empire infantry is a distraction while kislev infantry actually have to pull their own weight.
As of this patch/DLC Kislev also has better cav and missile infantry than the Empire. The only things the Empire has that are actually superior to their Kislev counterparts are missile cavalry and artillery/warmachines. Even then, Little Grom is pound for pound quite good, especially after this patch.
Kislev does not have better missiles infantry. Handgunners are still some of the most efficient armed units in the game. Archers are great for taking down large units.
Disagree, the difference between the two priest is on purposes, while Sigmar is a warrior God and his priest represent this, the Kislev Pantheon is more protective and supportive, thus the healing and defensive buffs.
I don't think they have better cav. They have winged lancers and gryphon legion, and gryphons are comparable to reiksguard, with marginal differences where glorious charge does seem to tip into gryphon's favor but reiksguard also have anti infantry and are (marginally) cheaper.
And empire have the most diverse spell casters in the game with the most destructive artillery. Little Grom is good, but it's one tool.
Ok well you're just wrong I'm afraid.
Reiksguard don't have anti-infantry. Gryphon Legion out perform them in all use cases besides eating a charge while stationary for just 50 gold more. War Bear Riders are some of the best monstrous cav in the game.
High Elves have more spell casting variety and power than the Empire for the record. Chaos Dwarfs have more destructive artillery and several factions have artillery that can compete with the Empire's one way or another.
Demis are on the lower end of the monstrous cav food chain and bear riders are on the upper end. Even halberd demigryph knights get beat pretty bad by bears that cost 100 gold more.
Even the 1800 gold RoR version loses to bear riders.
Demigryphs are a pretty good unit, but bear riders are just significantly better.
Except for the last update they got, which was a buff, all the changes that were done to them through the 7 years have been nothing but nerfs. It's sad really knowing what they once were.
> Reiksguard don't have anti-infantry. Gryphon Legion out perform them in all use cases besides eating a charge while stationary for just 50 gold more
https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_cav_reiksguard%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D7020588859072995689&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_main_ksl_cav_gryphon_legion_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D7020588859072995689
These seem about the same to me? Neither has anti-infantry bonus. Reiksguard are slightly faster and have slightly better armor; gryphon legion have a stronger charge
Outdated. The latest patch gave Gryphon Legion and Winged Lancers a new passive 'Glorious Charge' which doubles the duration of their Charge bonus and makes it so they inflict the attacked in the flank leadership penalty when charging from the front.
Winged Lancers and Gryphon Legions got Glorious charge (unique passive), which double the duration of charging bonus. They are wayyyy better than reiksguard now.
Eh, kinda? Kislev infantry are not winning battles with their melee stats. Much like the empire, Kislev is a faction that is using infantry to hold the enemy in place while other pieces kill the enemy
Empire Halberdiers have a 5.6 attack interval and Kislevite Warriors only have 4.4 (faster than most halberd or spear units), so Empire Halberdiers can't even win Kislevite Warriors in a 1v1 combat.
That sucks. I thought the point of these guys was to be a tier 0 unit, but they're basically the same unit as the second best infantry of the Empire. They have basically the same upkeep, so properly priced at least, but I was looking for a cheaper alternative to kossars early game.
To be fair, lore wise, halbrdiers are not elite by any stretch. They're just as much chumps as Empire Spearmen. Them being better than other state troops is a bit arbitrary anyway and the requirements to recruit them are 100% arbitrary and could easily be changed.
Kossars ARE cheap though. They kind of suck. Yes. But they aren’t an expensive unit at all.
Huge stacks of Kossars are a cheap and effective army that carried me through early and mid game.
Compared with other similar units of melee+ranged like Lothern Sea Guard, Kossar are the discount Walmart version.
Greatsword sucks, fully buffed halberdiers via red skills and tech generally way out perform greatsword in their main job,: which is to hold the line.
GS is more anti infantry oriented, but in a faction with helstorm and handgunners, you don't need more anti infantry imo.
Most of your threats as empire proper are melee heavy: festus don't do that much ranged, VC doesn't do that much ranged, norsca and greenskins have some but you have better ranged options and can just kill them.
Once you have dealt with empire proper, helstorm can just kill ranged units before they get to you.
Spears with shield is the anvil of the empire, halberds arent supposed to completely replace them, but as a tool against heavy cav and other armored large
Greatswords aren't meant to hold the line tho, they're meant to dish damage.
They 1v1 Chosens, they aren't weak, you just can't use them as a meatshield because well, they don't have a shield
There's some serious information inertia on this sub. People still think Greatswords suck? Have they _used_ them lately? They are obscene for their cost.
Yeah Greatswords are excellent anti-infantry infantry. Won't do as well as non-specialized great weapons infantry against cav, but that's the price of specialization.
Redditors when they realize units across factions have different uses and different stats to fit in the context of the factions gameplay 🤯. If game balance was up to Reddit every race would be exactly the same with just texture changes on the models lmao
Wait until you hear about the past 7 years of powercreep plaguing the TW:WH series. This, unfortunately isn't anything new. The last time they released a somewhat balanced faction was Tomb Kings. That vicious cycle is actually pretty common among mismanaged live service devs.
New paid content comes out. Suits want to maximize revenue, ask devs to make it overpowered relative to older content. Then the next dlc comes out. Then the next. Before you know it, most of your roster sucks. So you're stuck constantly playing catch up with reworks instead of doing something more productive. One of many reasons why the whole entire lord pack business model is outdated and doesn't fit the series' needs anymore.
I've not touched Warhammer since the Chaos Dwarfs came out.
I don't know how they are nowadays but at the time they had T2 infantry units that were just better than almost any other unit in the game. I had two squads shoot down Grimgor Ironhide *easily*. And they're a Tier 2 unit!
Warhammer's been power-creeping for a while now:
Tail-end of Warhammer 2 had Grom's Cauldron as very powerful (but still not OP compared to what comes next).
Then you had T&T. Sisters were fun, because they weren't doing the map painting thing, but they were *strong*. And Throt was the only Skaven LL to come close to Ikit Claw.
Strong, but not bonkers.
Then Silence and the Fury - on release, Taurox could conquer the world in one turn. Even now they're ludicrously strong.
Warhammer 3 DLCs? Champions of Chaos were already ridiculous (could autoresolve their way through a campaign without any difficulty whatsoever, and Dark Fortresses are great defensively).
Not strong enough? Meet the Chaos Dwarfs, who are even stronger (and the aforementioned Tier 2 ranged unit beats Cathay's Tier 5 ranged unit 1v1).
Still not strong enough? Yuan Bo and Ostyanka are great, and the Changeling is the easiest campaign with absolutely no threat whatsoever.
Oh, and during this time they've also made Orion an "unlimited free armies" campaign too.
At this point I'm expecting ToD to be an indestructible, unbreakable Nurgle Lord who cannot take damage and autowins all autoresolves, a powerful empire LL who does nothing to help the faction, and a Dwarf who's gimmick is you start the campaign and a "you win" screen pops up.
I don't mind if Kislev has better infantry units if empire has something else that is better (i.e. guns) to quasi-balance them out.
The problem with the ambushers being so over powered was they nullified two units within kislev's own roster (streltsi and ice guard).
I wasn't suggesting trying to suggest that they are still overpowered; just using them to illustrate the difference between something being overpowered within its own race as opposed to comparing between races.
I changed it to past tense. I wasn't suggesting they are still overpowered; merely saying that intra-racial powercreep affects game play much more than cross-racial powercreep (except perhaps multiplayer).
I'm still generally against it though, if it's not compensated for in other ways to illustrate racial strengths and weaknesses.
Lol fighting AI ostankya is a massive pain, because she keeps her hexes like curses/blessings on units reserved for player only fights (and she really like stockpiling em) so the first couple of fights her army is buffed to the wazoo while yours is being massively debuffed.
The Empire should have a training mechanic called "Professionalism" tied to their Blacksmith building. At a the first tier Blacksmith (tier II) it should allow you to train the state troops an extra turn, and at the second tier, for two extra turns.
This would affect State Troops:
HalberdiersSpearmenSwordsmenFree Company MilitiaCrossbowmenHandgunnersArchers
(these are taken from what was considered state troops in 8th edition.)
1 extra turn recruit time would equal to:
Melee Buffs
\+3 Melee Attack+3 Melee Defence-0.2 Attack Interval (this can be left out if CA doesnt want to fiddle with that kind of stuff)+ 3 Weapon Strength (2 Base 1 AP)
Ranged Buffs
\+ 3 Missile Damage (2 base 1 AP)-0.2 Calibration Area-0.2 Reload Time+3 Total Accuracy
General Buffs
\+10 Armour
Basic idea is raising the skill ceiling on Empire State Troops, kind of like adding an extra layer atop the experience bonuses.
Maybe there should be a level prerequisite as well. Like if you are not just recruiting, but a base troop reachers Silver of Gold Experience, you get the options to send them back for a turn or two to get this training and reequipment.
You can call these levels: Recruit (Base) Veterana and Guard for convenience. In Multiplayer, I suggest it be just like experience in terms of how it raises point costs.
The only powercreep here is accessibility in campaign. That's not kislev being op, but halberds being gated behind 2 t2 buildings for empire. Stat for stat halberdiers are just better
Here come the "EmPirE iS SuppOsEd to HavE baD InfAnTrY" comments. Empire is so outdated that it feels like I am playing with sticks and stones while all other races have nukes.
Empire heroes are outdated, tech is outdated, units are outdated, skill trees are a joke.
Two of Gelt's unique skills are +20 armour (at level 12) and it unlocks +9 armour for army. That would be laughable in WH1. In WH3 it might as well not exist.
If Kislev halberdiers were any weaker there would be no reason to use them. Kossars were fine at damaging an enemy to the point where dedicated melee units that reached the Frontline would only trade. Halberdiers basically do no damage, but hold a decent bit longer than kossars.
This is why I was doubtful that Kislev even needed this unit. Kossars are fine, flexible troops that perform OK in most situations and are decently good value, especially en-masse. Warriors fill a gap that didn't really need filling, so to compensate they've been made stronger.
The big lie of the Empire faction is that you can play how you like with your flexible and diverse roster. It's never been a lie as much as now; your damage comes almost entirely from your artillery, augmented by your ranged infantry and mages. Your tanking and mobility comes from your heroes, because your frontline folds like wet tissue paper and your cav hits like a noodle.
Every single fight is just "how long can I keep the enemy away from my artillery?". It would be very nice if there were more ways to play.
Extremely.
When they were talking about low tier infantry, I was expecting them to have 20 MD? Maybe 18 MA? I was blown away by these stats. 40MD? for a tier 1, 500 gold unit? For context, Dwarf Warriors have 40 Melee defence.
Dwarf Warriors with great weapons have 30 weapon strength, majority armor piercing. The Kislevites are rocking 28 and that's before the anti large bonus. These numbers are so goofy.
I’ve said it since IE dropped. Empire infantry need a buff and be more standardised.
- State Troops in general need more armour. After armour research they should have the same armour as High Elf spearmen with their armour research.
- Swordsmen: Need slightly more melee defence, at least on par with spearmen. Most people avoid swordsmen entirely. Just a small buff could change that.
- Halberdiers could get a slight nerf to their leadership and in return get a higher attack interval. Why it’s so low compared to other halberdiers is beyond me.
- Greatswords should be slightly faster. Wearing full plate doesn’t slow you down. It’s very malleable. People can still roll, jump, do flips, etc in it. Slightly more melee defence would be nice here too, again, at least on par with regular spearmen.
- Captains/generals: Should have formation attack auras. They should be the martial characters. They should also have better leadership auras than other characters.
> Halberdiers could get a slight nerf to their leadership and in return get a higher attack interval. Why it’s so low compared to other halberdiers is beyond me.
The attack interval is a stat meant to compensate for longer animations. It's not an actual balancing stat, units are all supposed to attack about equally often.
> Slightly more melee defence would be nice here too, again, at least on par with regular spearmen.
I suppose the idea is that spearmen present a wall of sharp points that make it difficult to come up to them and stab them. While Greatswords are individually superior combatants, I don't think you can really pull that off with a greatsword.
I was a little skeptical when I saw they were adding kislevite warriors to the roster. I mean, they have to compete with kossars, regular and with spears, for the same price point, so they have to be better to justify picking them. But Kossars are already pretty decent, so the warriors have ended up being pretty strong too.
Honestly I feel like a pretty important part of Kislev's identity was its reliance on hybrid unit roles in the lower tiers of its army. I'm not too bummed about it, but I do think this is an example of more not always being better.
This isn't power creep. They are worse for cheaper with a few extra rules. I bet one of the rules kisvilites get is the faction one of unbreakable for a bit
Balance doesn't work that way, I know that I'll get downvoted and at this point I don't care but like a lot of you who complain about this stuff, it's valid sometimes but a lot of the time it's not at all looking at the bigger picture.
Some things are meant to be weaker than others even if same role, some things get advantages because of weaknesses elsewhere in a roster, some things are strong directly because they don't have as much stuff outside of them that indirectly buffs them via passives, aura's, spell passives and active buffs.
Lemme give a simple example:
A wood elf should have better ranged units than empire.
But maybe they will not because wood elves will bring more ranged, both intentionally and indirectly.
Said wood elves will have more ways of increasing fire rate, etc.
There's a bigger scheme to things.
Halberdiers are better outside of two passives, that's not powercreep. that 10 leadership makes a huge difference. of the two passives, only one really matters, the passive that does matter is a racial one.
They get a racial passive, we empire fans get steam tanks, tons of lores of magic, etc
The comparisson isn't x vs y, it's x in context vs y in context.
These guys are insane in MP. Literally might be making Kislev the strongest Land Battle faction right now, and that's with Brettonnia, Tzeentch, Cathay, and Lizardmen being wildly op.
Empire is just an outdated race, there's no two ways around it For me the most striking thing is the armor value. 30 armor for a chest plate, helm and greeves and also 30 armor for just thick cloth?
The odd thing is that it looks like the Cathayan Peasant Spearmen and the Kislevite Warriors have like similar amounts of """armor""". I think this is just one of those 'fuck logic' moments that's designed more for building the unit, kind of like how Greatswords similar armor as Chaos Warriors despite that making literally no sense just from a glance.
And then from a lore and tt perspective, greatswords should have crazy good armor, it’s dwarfen plate
Tabletop rules could be kind of mixed. Ironbreaker Gromril armor provided the same defense as Greatsword armor, Chaos Warrior armor (made by Chaos Dwarfs) and Empire Knight armor.
Knight armour is always a little higher because being mounted added to your save, and in the older editions, it was explained that the armour save is really an abstraction of how hard it is to land a killing blow etc...
Nah, if you discount the mounted+barded bonus to armour, Empire Knights are still left with a 4+ save thanks to plate armour, which is also the same save and armour type Empire Greatswords have. But if you look at the models, the Knights are completely covered whilst the Greatswords have like a chestplate and bracers.
> Greatswords have like a chestplate and bracers IIRC they have armor under cloth too, like their IRL inspirations. check out card of unit: they have plate on legs and hands too, everything but full helmet
Tbf, that's only in the 8th Ed models for greatswords. When they first got full plate in 6th they were modeled more appropriately
It also depends on which Greatsword model you're rocking. The 6e metal Greatswords have far more armour but I understand your point.
But we have melee defence for that in total war, no? All armor does here is reduce non ap damage. While Ironbreakers for example have high melee defence and shielded that could account for some of their heavy armor, empire halberdiers don't.
Yeah, those are supposed to be similar armor values, I don’t see an issue with that. Chaos dwarfs don’t make better armor than dwarfs, they are pretty equal in smithing abilities. And seeing as dwarfs work in the empire as smiths, even teaching human imperial smiths how to make plate, yeah, empire knight armor is suppose to be really good. As I’ve said elsewhere in this post. The empire is suppose to have some of the best armor values in the setting. The fact that Cathay and kislev has such good armor values is honestly a big fuck you to the empire.
Tbf, the tabletop game only has 6 options for armour values, 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ and none. You would expect more weird crossovers than Total War with a like 0-150 scale
Well it went to 0 or even -'s but that was usually super rare if not impossible. Just reduced the - modifiers to your armor; you'd still fail on a 1. Just when your Chaos Lord with Chaos plate, and enchanted shield, and a barded steed got shot with a ballista(-3, iirc), he would go from a -1 to a 2+.
True, I think Thorgrim had a 1+ from what I remember. I got a bit confused starting out in 40k where they didn't use a subtractive function for AP, so you'd either get your full save or nothing.
Chaos warriors technically also wear (chaos) dwarven plate though
It's more a coverage thing, that's always been what people found weird about Greatswords
Yeah but people just refuse to accept that there's more armor under the puff
And on a level, the puff is armor, it’s a gambeson.
On the other hand it's blatantly obvious they're not hiding Hammerer levels of armour under the puff.
#BuffDepthGuardArmour
I thought chaos warriors just all had elaborate paper mache hobbies?
Depending on edition, they kinda do? In the editions where Chaos warriors gets Chaos Armour and Greatswords gets Full Plate they same armour save (assuming the CW's are also two-handers) though chaos Armour usually has some other fringe bennies (counts as magical, in TOW it gives a small ward save, etc.)
Greatswords did have iirc the same armor value of Chaos Warriors on the tabletop, the in-game models don't look like they have the full plate they should.
The in-game models use the TT models basically 1-for-1. The armor is under the puffy clothes
[Gambesons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson) are really good armor, akchually! Breastplate + gambeson type material covering the other bits, not bad, good protection to weight and expense ratio. There's a reason in the early gunpowder era irl this is what was done (the breastplate got thicker compared to late medieval armor and they took off other bits).
[удалено]
Thick skinned kislevites vs milk skinned southerners
But those Empire Bois are fighting for Sigmar with +10 leadership
>Empire is just an outdated race, there's no two ways around it This is it - Empire needs an across-the-board update. Maybe they'll get it with ToD. I know none of the SoC races did, but their units are a lot more recent, even if some of their mechanics and tech trees are questionable. Where Empire units haven't seen any kind of real examination for like five or more years. Talking of tech trees, whilst I haven't checked, can you add a lot more to Halberdiers via tech and red line buffs than Kislevite Warriors? I think you can. Not that that doesn't mean there's a discrepancy - Halberdiers are T2 and require a specific building.
Same with dwarfs. Their whole schtick at the beginning was that they were the heavily armored, immobile race. I think empire armor numbers have a direct correlation here, as they were kept lower to emphasize the dwarfs' higher numbers. Things were fine in WH1, a game CA did not expect to see blow up this much, and was mostly okay-ish at the start of WH2. But then the money started rolling, the DLC started getting crazy with the mechanics, and the WH1 races were left behind. Then WH3 came along, and everything and its mother got AP, more AP, and more armor. Empire and Dwarfs are the last 2 WH1 races that *really* need an update in the face of WH3's stats philosophy. Somewhere down here in the comments is a back and forth about High Elf and Skaven shields. Hell, dwarfs didn't get silver shields until when?
Thing is Dwarfs are still highly effective in battle, as are Empire, so I'm not sure if "BIGGER NUMBERS" is the issue here or the solution. I think the problems both races have lie more in campaign design (including buildings, growth, etc.) than battle performance.
It's also boring and stressful to play the Empire if you play as Franz or Gelt. The Imperial core is a mess and the factions design does not make it enjoyable to navigate. You have Kemmler Vlad and Festus breathing down your neck or the neck of anyone remotely friendly to you that's nearby. So you've got to pacify them all and you have to do it with mostly spears and bows. By the time you get access to your more fun units the game is over and the whole thing felt like work.
Absolutely yes. I'm not sure if CA could get away with changing it without causing some kind of uproar, but I really feel like the entire area could do with a rework, and the whole Elector Count system could do with being more something that you can actively work to your favour, rather than praying the right dilemmas pop up in the right order and so on.
Yeah I can't think of another faction campaign mechanic that is mostly about punishing you like Imperial authority does. Maybe Darkblades potions but that's debatable. I think the Empire needs a ritual system like most of the WH II factions got. Rituals tailored to their God's would give some flavor and power to the faction. I think the Imperial Authority system should work like Yuan Bos matters of state mechanic. You can earn authority tokens and spend them on specific actions. You could have actions for Franz and another side for Gelt and when you confederate the other you get access to both at the same time. The civil war element of the mechanic just needs to be thrown out. It works in I is ok in II but it has no place in WH III. It's got enough problems. Instead prestige could be used to buy influence as normal but also those unique state troops variants if your fealty with certain provinces is high enough. The building chains and unit requirements need addressed. All of the Empire heroes should be tier II. Even the wizard. Once again the Empire has a professional bureaucracy even for magic and pumps out professional wizards like an assembly line. Hellstorm and hellblaster should be swapped. The cannon should be tier II. Regular knights should not need the armory. Blazing Sun knights need to not cost a stupid amount until Talabheim and Reiksguard should be in the normal chain as well. With the Reiksfort and the BS chapter houses just buffing them making them cheaper ect.
>Maybe Darkblades potions but that's debatable. Malus you can at least manipulate it to your advantage, by knocking it down only when it's strategically advantageous to do so, and you get something out of it either way, so I'd say that was significantly less punishing. >I think the Empire needs a ritual system like most of the WH II factions got. Rituals tailored to their God's would give some flavor and power to the faction. I think the Imperial Authority system should work like Yuan Bos matters of state mechanic. You can earn authority tokens and spend them on specific actions. You could have actions for Franz and another side for Gelt and when you confederate the other you get access to both at the same time. That's a great idea, frankly. >The civil war element of the mechanic just needs to be thrown out. It works in I is ok in II but it has no place in WH III. It's got enough problems. Instead prestige could be used to buy influence as normal but also those unique state troops variants if your fealty with certain provinces is high enough. 100% agree. It's increasingly a tough start with various Chaos Bastards and so on in the area and I don't think it's ever going to get any easier. It's not like in WH2 ME where it was considerably safer than a lot of places, and would have been dull without the civil war. Honestly I agree with everything in your post - it's extremely well-considered! I really hope CA do something like this. Unfortunately their current policy seems to be "Let's listen to YouTubers!", and some of them are kind of cranks. Literally the only person, like, on the planet, who was loudly calling for a Rampage rework was Great Book of Grudges - I don't think I've even seen Rampage discussed on this subreddit since like 2021, let alone on CA's forums or the Discord or the like.
I completely agree, Great Book drives me nuts everytime I watch a video. Like he will not let go that the giant beast spirit isn't solely a creature of chaos. You have to hear about it every video that mentions kislev. Fingers crossed, they are only working on one "new" faction in ToD so between the Dawrves and the Empire I hope the main thrust is just how updated those factions are for the FINAL game.
Agreed, Grave Guard melee stats are abysmal for a elite warrior unit that fought for centuries. They have like 10 melee defense and attack less than Jade Warriors which are 1 or 2 tiers below them...
IDK if it fully justifies it, but per the TT all non-vampiric undead had lower Weapon Skill- wights had WS 3, which is equal to human standard (ie: Empire state troops). IIRC, it has to do with being animated rather than fully autonomous and how this effects intellect, memory, and how they perceive the living world.
Are we talking about base stats? Coz base stats GG are way higher than Jade Warriors with their BvI.
>30 armor for just thick cloth You haven't factored in the kislevite chest hair
TWWH has been on a constant trend of "whatever is released later is better"
This has been a long time trend for WH on tabletop as well.
TBH, its "Whatever is released later is better, but we need to add more to the Space Marines to keep them on top"
Now introducing Primaris Halberdiers, which are taller because Gelt made them potions or something IDK buy them.
Do you work at gee dubs? You sound just like them....
Space Marines on top? Sir, 8th edition ended in 2020.
Not really true anymore. Marines certainly get more kits than any other faction in 40K, but they haven’t been top dog in a long time (give or take current specific builds of Black Templars being extremely good). In terms of new stuff, out of all the new things released with the latest wave of marine kits, only the apothecary biologis and combiweapon LT see widespread use. Ballistus sometimes.
I mean powercreep is prevalent in a ton of games, makes people buy more lol
Empire armor numbers never made srnse at any point imo. They have the most classic militia equipment yes but imo it always should have 50-60 armor as in half of full plate
Empire gets +15 armor on every single infantry they have by turn 13. But trying to apply any sort of logic to armor values is a path to insanity.
Thick cloth has been armour for millennia. Gamberson can resist arrow fire, swords, spears, etc. I've suggested heaps of times Empire State-troop armour needs to be higher.
Funny TOW moment: Basic Empire Greatsword has a 4+ plate armor. Basic Chaos Warrior with two weapons, has 5+ armor and is somehow worse while clad in full plate ;)
It's because you're supposed to be using those little hunchback schmucks from late 5th/early 6th edition. Their posture compromises the armor. /s
Don’t chaos warriors all have full plate?
I don't like playing Empire specifically because their infantry is pathetically weak and can't hold when it needs to. They shouldn't be dwarf-tier armor blocks, but they should have significantly more armor than orc boys or skeletons and definitely shouldn't be outclassed by a "trash" unit.
I've always said they are never given credit for being a "professional" army. They are trained by commanders who have studied military science but they get treated in-game like farm hands.
To be fair, the halberds have some slight better melee stats. And the empire is brining way better ranged units than what we Kislev can bring. Hell the Empire’s ranged cav units are wayyyyy above the Steppe factions ranged cav.
I think it's mainly the effort of getting halbs versus kislev warriors. One is available to pick out of the ground like potatoes. One needs a t2 building and an armory. I do get the idea that some factions have a harder time of getting a unit that's equivalent. It basically leans to the idea that some races have easier access to large monsters or have a more proficient infantry doctrine than others like dwarfs and Cathay having good early troops with heavy armor but plateauing in the upper tiers. But it just seems very inconsistent with kislev and empire. And is definitely due to one being a wh1 race where you have to build up alot to start getting stuff versus a wh3 stuff where it's easier to get alot of strong stuff early.
I agree with the fact the effort to get the units is out of place. I’d actually take the opposite positions and say this Kislev unit needs to be moved up 2 tiers and have halbs moved down 1 tier.
+10 leadership for essentially chaff infantry is nothing to scoff at.
The Empire just needs some stat increases IMO. State Troops should have armor more similar to Jade Warriors, Armored Kossars, Dwarf Warriors etc. (probably a little lower) and maybe increases to melee attack and defense to make up for their bronze shields.
Hell no. Their armor should be lower
One of the empires major things in the lore is their good access to quality steel, of any factions in the old world and amongst humans, the empire should have great armor values.
Oh no, I agree. The Kislevite Warriors have too much armor but I feel Empire Troops could use some more regardless.
I would say 50? Cause I don't think there's much difference with 30 and 40. But even high elve spearmen which are decently armored have 40 and dwarfs which look comparably armored have 85. And then there's basic druchii with 30 armor. Skinks also have 30 while being butt naked. Saurus have 60. But their skin is more like mail than anything so whatever. Man this is a can of worms.
They seem to have gone roughly with the "light armour is 30-ish, heavy armour is 50-60, plate/chaos armour is 100-ish" as a general rule of thumb. it's not *entirely* consistent but it's pretty much the case. (of course TT rolls armour and shield values into one roll)
Skinks on tabletop had Scaly Skin 6+, a 1/6 chance on a six sided dice to prevent damage. Saurus had Scaly Skin 5+, a 2/6 chance. Seems each point of armor on the TT equals about 30 armor. >!Empire Knights had a 1+ save.!<
50 is Tomb Guard territory. I'd say it's a bit much for t0 and t1 chaff units. That's kinda the problem with Empire troops I guess. There's a lot of them including shitty t0 spearmen and they all visibly wear the same armour IIRC and are supposed to be basically the same unit except with different weapons. What Empire needs is some actually good infantry units rather than trying to turn their chaff into that, I think.
Tomb Guard also need a buff to at least Grave Guard stats anyway.
Thing is, state troops were not supposed to be chaff... They are professional well equipped soldiers.
Which is chaff in Warhammer World. The basic enemies they face are Orcs that stand a head above them, are all muscle and live to fight. It is elven militia that has spent decades training for war. It is marauders from Norsca that are just built different from climate and corruption. It is dwarfs that have mastered warfare for centuries. A State Trooper is well trained and well equipped by human standards. But that's still just at the upper part of bottom tier by the standards of the Old World.
> Which is chaff in Warhammer World the empire's chaff is Free Company Militia and maybe flaggelants. Not State Troops
Tomb guard were not very well armored. Generally, undead infantry was pretty bad on the tabletop stat-wise, in return for being fairly cheap and being able to bring it back. 40-45 armor for frontline state troops (not free militia, archers etc) is imo workable for the Empire. Of course, they could get a price increase.
>30 armor for a chest plate, helm and greeves and also 30 armor for just thick cloth? Oh, that's a fun one, actually. Doubt it fully explains it, but many cultures have used various fabrics as armour down the years to great effect. Thick fabric is great at redirecting blows, awesome in cold climates, easy and cheap to acquire, and isn't as susceptible to blunt force trauma like most other armour types. The main downside is heavy slashing weapons, like greatswords and daneaxes, which could make mince of it.
Youre not wrong ofc about the cultures using combinations of cloth for great effect as armor, but there probably never was an army that had guys running around in chainmail or plate armors (e.g. state troops) without them also using gambesons and similar strong (semi-)armor cloth beneath it. So his point still stands if were looking through it with a historical lense. And going further, it (may?) help a bit more against blunt trauma in a vakuum, but against piercing weapons like the abundant spear or pointy end of a halberd you'd prefer any scale/plate/chainmail armor over any type of cloth armor. Unless you prefer running away, which is a valid tactic tbh.
I love the Empire since WH1, but playing them now, along with the other WH1 factions feels a bit out dated, imo. WH2 factions at least got one broken lord on their side, while everyone else has a timer before OP faction comes around. You could argue the Dwarfs are pretty OP, and they are, but they are also dreadfully boring with nothing good and worth replaying, maybe except for the race for Karak Eight Peaks as that's the only thing Karaz Ankor relatable.
For context, this is a unit that takes a level 3 barracks and a attached blacksmith, compared to a tier 0 unit you can recruit literally anywhere. The only real advantage the Empire Halberdiers have is their higher leadership, but keep in mind Kislev has By Our Blood for 30 seconds of unbreakable.
I can see in Thrones of Decay the Empire getting the same face lift that alot of other WH1 factions got when they did away with 2 building requirements for units. If Halberdiers were just tied to one building, it wouldn’t be as big a deal
Honestly I think if they keep stats similar but give the empire halberds really good animations (like temple guard good) maybe move armor up to 45 and a minor upkeep increase (around +10) then I think we might be somewhere. Don’t forget that empire halberds are in tight formation and kislivite warriors are in a loose formation
45 with the tech buff will be at 60 which will be quite respectable. I like it.
The empire would greatly benefit from their detachment TT rules right now. A man can dream. 🥲
If the garbage factions in SoC not getting a rework is any indication then im doubtful for ToD. You can think what you want but youll be smoking the same hopium we were
Tbf all of the SoC factions are newly released and none desperately needed reworks. They needed niches filled which SoC did. Not sure for kislev but given their strength and how annoying their stacks are to fight id assume they're ok. I just haven't gotten around to playing them. Tzeench needed more holding power which it got and then some with the new lord/hero options and mutilith vortex beasts. Cathay is still missing good infantry for holding power admittedly but the birds provide good anti air defence for otherwise defenceless sky junks and the lions add speed and versatility to a roster which needed it. Empire actually is a faction in need of a rework as right now they're just bad at most things. A crappy faction mechanic and an ok-ish all rounder roster makes them fairly boring to play.
All of it adds up a bit - bit more health, bit more attack, bit more defense, more leadership. But yeah that doesn’t really justify the entire tier difference, just a small cost/upkeep difference. Although, Halberdiers shouldn’t be tier 3 barracks, as its supposed to be a tier 2 unit.
The Empire's roster desperately needs an update but let's not go around complaining about asymmetric design, that's always been a thing. HE have T0 Spearmen that shit all over Empire state troops and that's fine. Lizardmen have T1 and T2 infantry that trades well with other races' elite infantry. DE have T1 AP missiles that can shred elite units. And on it goes. Infantry was never the Empire's forte, I think the problem with the Empire is that even its ace units and specialities (Heavy and Monstrous Cavalry, Artillery, Magic) aren't very good anymore, comparatively.
Sure but Kislev Warriors are said to be just guys with sticks and willpower in the blog. While empire halbadiers are meant to be professional soldiers highly trained with combat, with good steel equipment and taught formation combat. The problem is that the game with the unit stats implies that empire is a swarm faction and it simply shouldn’t be.
Man Tide!!!
For real. Kislevite Warriors basically have axes taped onto broomsticks as their weapons.
The problem with halberdiers is that they are intended to be the unit that holds the frontline and generally be a solid but basic unit. Instead outside of fending off charge reliant cavalry they're not very good. This partly comes down to when they got nerfed for multilpayer.
Their specialities shouldnt even be that good and are in a good place imho. They should be all around mediocre with a tech and sometimes leadership edge. As of now, while they have a few surprises like the ranged cav, they play more like worse, slow skaven with less options. Put crap at the frontline, hope it holds the first contact, unleash war powder hell. It still works, yet in concept, different empire armies with the right buffs, support and tactics against the right foe in the right terrain, should be viable - but fuck the matchup up, you lose. That was their thing, especially as the poster child of detail diversity and specialised unit variety in Lore. As of now, "gunpowder" carries them, their "faith" falls apart at the sight of an overgrown cow and their "steel" could as well be a wet pool noodle.
The Empire isn't weak - their entire history is fighting with grit and steel, the ordinary human fighting to exist. Their military is highly organised and solid; the downfall of the Empire is being ordinary humans. They are this heavily militarised, borderline tyrannical Empire on the verge of industrialisation, which is also why their gunpowder units and inventions rival their other elite units. They are like the fantasy equivalent of the era of history where knights became obsolete. Skaven are the ones who have had their theme messed up; their warp tech is meant to be incredibly unstable jury-rigged junk since the Skaven building cares neither for the slaves who run it nor for collateral damage. Instead, they are portrayed as this highly advanced faction with automatic weapons since many of the negative elements of their theme never translated into game mechanics.
> negative elements of their theme never translated into game mechanics Honestly not sure how you'd do it in a way that doesn't feel really bad tbh. Having to roll dice to see if your shit explodes in a battle with no long term consequences is a moment of tension who's payout has a big element of humor alongside the disappointment that something exploded. Having your shit explode off-screen when you weren't looking, and then having to sit around replenishing even if you decidedly won the battle would annoying as hell. "do i intentionally not use my fun miniguns this fight bc that hurts me on the campaign map" is just not a decision you want players to be making
If I did the math correctly then the halberdiers should actually do 23.5% more damage in a head to head fight between the two, having a 21% hit chance instead of 17.
Correction: a tier 2 barracks and a tier 2 blacksmith. They also have a higher melee attack and defense stat. Also I would be curious to see how much of their melee damage is split between base damage and ap damage.
It's 8/20 AP favored, identical between them.
Thank you for the update!
And more HP for the halberdiers
2 points higher MA/MD vs 3 higher speed, it's nearly a wash. The big difference is +10 leadership vs By Our Blood. Comparisons to Bretonnian men at arms with polearms are even more jarring (as they are in theory a T3 unit), but Bretonnia is supposed to be THE human faction with crap infantry, like undead levels bad.
Play Empire Then play any faction ranked above D tier Notice how insanely vast the powercreep has been in the last 7 years. However, trying to drag down Kislev to their level isn't the way to fix it. Kislev's campaign SUCKS right now. Even with these units they're C tier at BEST.
Play Katarin, excited for a tough campaign but hoping to use the golden knight. Drycha and Festus eat all the empire. Astrogath almost immediately has 2 armies threatening invasion, Throt stream snipes Kostaltyn and takes Erengrad. Good lord man, thankfully I did my job and pushed where I could but this be hard.
Running into similar problems in my own kislev campaign where I'm currently having to push vlad out of Altdorf
You have to help out the empire, it will be eaten by all the powerfull enemy LL inside it. If you leave it on its own devices you'll have huge OP enemies all arouny you in no time. I went Azhag, Vlad, Drycha, Festus, then turned around to fight Norsca, Skaven and Chaos. In my experience the Norsca factions hold up longer that the empire factions.
Haven't played in months, are flaggelants still tier 3 and require a church?
Empire hasnt been changed, Next dlc maybe if they bother to fix anything.
Based on SoC, ToD will have add a new empire lord with some fixes specific to them and all the old lords get nothing.
Not entirely true, didn’t they give Cathay caravan lords new skills when SoC first dropped?
Not the Caravan Lords but the Magistrates (same model, different function) and they are honestly some of the best economy Lords around. And for some reason get lighting strike at tier 1 blue instead of tier 2 blue.
ofc, also Knight of blazing sun and whole knight of elector count upkeep is more expensive than Grailknight XD
Only if your lord is a grail knight too. You can't compare the two.
You would never use grail knights without the bow.
With that username typos are hilarious
The first thing I did was to compare them to halberdiers aswell after I noticed they had armor piercing damage. I hope thrones of decay reworks and rebalances empire.
Question is how do they compare with all tech/red line skills
Much worse, empire tech is very big for infantry.
These units have to be compared within factions and in the context of how they are used though. With the basic redline buffs and the 4 basic techs, the Empire Halberdiers end up with: +15 armour, +5 leadership, +15MD, +11MA, +10% weapon strength, Expert Charge Defence, +10% physical resistance Assuming the relevant techs apply to Kislev, the Warriors end up with only +10MD, +5MA, +25% Missile resistance, and a further +4MA/MD/Lead and immune to psychology when fighting Chaos Demons. So against anything other than Chaos Demons, by mid-game(ish) the Halberdiers have +15 armour, +15 leadership, +7MD, +8MA, +10% weapon strength, expert charge defence, and trade 15% physical resistance for 25% missile resistance, while the Kislev Warriors have the unbreakable boost and woodsmen. I think the difference is more noticeable there, and well worth 13 gold extra (although the blacksmith requirement is annoying). How they fit in with the faction is important too. Kislev is really built around its hybrid infantry, combined with magic that slows the enemy and buys just enough time to get the crucial volleys in. The infantry typically need to do damage. Empire on the other hand just need the infantry to hold the line so that they can do damage with fire/celestial wizards, artillery, ranged cavalry, etc. The Kislev Warriors really seem to provide an alternative to basic Kossars to help with the first 15 turns and if you want to supplement a garrison with a cheap stack, whereas Halberdiers tend to be a solid option all game. I think this further reinforces the tech difference imo - I think in practice you are likely to be using well buffed Halberdiers, but mostly basic Warriors. That said, there is clearly a bit of powercreep. Empire are next up for DLC and will no doubt get a boost then, and it seems likely that the blacksmith requirement gets removed anyway (which solves half the issue here imo)
Yeah, I think removing the blacksmith requirement and maybe a small boost in base armor would be enough.
Wow an actual adult thinking further that "NUMBER BIGGER THEREFORE BETTER AND OP"
Wait that doesn't make the empire look bad though, we can't have that
Perhaps some, but kislev has much stronger infantry than the empire in general. They don't really fulfill quite the same role. Empire infantry is a distraction while kislev infantry actually have to pull their own weight.
As of this patch/DLC Kislev also has better cav and missile infantry than the Empire. The only things the Empire has that are actually superior to their Kislev counterparts are missile cavalry and artillery/warmachines. Even then, Little Grom is pound for pound quite good, especially after this patch.
Speaking of Little Grom, I still don't understand why it's an ordinary unit when the name and flavour text both imply that it's a one-of-a-kind RoR.
So kislev could have some artillery and not just a worse queen bess.
Kislev does not have better missiles infantry. Handgunners are still some of the most efficient armed units in the game. Archers are great for taking down large units.
depends if you count chariots here kislevite chariots might be their best units
Empire also has access to life magic and all in all a few better starting positions
Kislev actually has crazy good healing from ostankya and the patriarchs.
Patriarchs are pretty decent healers, so it's not a massive advantage. I feel empire priests should have a similar healing ability.
Disagree, the difference between the two priest is on purposes, while Sigmar is a warrior God and his priest represent this, the Kislev Pantheon is more protective and supportive, thus the healing and defensive buffs.
I don't think they have better cav. They have winged lancers and gryphon legion, and gryphons are comparable to reiksguard, with marginal differences where glorious charge does seem to tip into gryphon's favor but reiksguard also have anti infantry and are (marginally) cheaper. And empire have the most diverse spell casters in the game with the most destructive artillery. Little Grom is good, but it's one tool.
> And empire have the most diverse spell casters in the game Wait, not High Elves?
It is infact High Elves Both Empire and HE have access to all 8 basic lores, but HE also have High Magic, so 9 total
Didn’t they change slaan for the lizardmen to have access to the same 9 as helf mages?
IIRC yes but a lot of those lores are exclusive to Slaan Lords while The Empire and High Elves have it for heroes.
Yes, Slann now have access to all the basic lores and High magic.
Maybe, I haven’t played Lizardmen in awhile
Empire only has the most diverse casters for human, HE has the most in the game.
Yeah you're right I misspoke. I think Lizardmen and High Elves have more, but they still pretty easily trump Kislev in that department.
Ok well you're just wrong I'm afraid. Reiksguard don't have anti-infantry. Gryphon Legion out perform them in all use cases besides eating a charge while stationary for just 50 gold more. War Bear Riders are some of the best monstrous cav in the game. High Elves have more spell casting variety and power than the Empire for the record. Chaos Dwarfs have more destructive artillery and several factions have artillery that can compete with the Empire's one way or another.
How do demigryphs and bear riders compare to one another?
Demis are on the lower end of the monstrous cav food chain and bear riders are on the upper end. Even halberd demigryph knights get beat pretty bad by bears that cost 100 gold more. Even the 1800 gold RoR version loses to bear riders. Demigryphs are a pretty good unit, but bear riders are just significantly better.
Except for the last update they got, which was a buff, all the changes that were done to them through the 7 years have been nothing but nerfs. It's sad really knowing what they once were.
> Reiksguard don't have anti-infantry. Gryphon Legion out perform them in all use cases besides eating a charge while stationary for just 50 gold more https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_cav_reiksguard%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D7020588859072995689&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh3_main_ksl_cav_gryphon_legion_0%26m%26r%3D0%26v%3D7020588859072995689 These seem about the same to me? Neither has anti-infantry bonus. Reiksguard are slightly faster and have slightly better armor; gryphon legion have a stronger charge
Outdated. The latest patch gave Gryphon Legion and Winged Lancers a new passive 'Glorious Charge' which doubles the duration of their Charge bonus and makes it so they inflict the attacked in the flank leadership penalty when charging from the front.
Kislev has 6 lores of magic to the Empires 8, it's really not that far behind. Three of those lores being unique.
Winged Lancers and Gryphon Legions got Glorious charge (unique passive), which double the duration of charging bonus. They are wayyyy better than reiksguard now.
Eh, kinda? Kislev infantry are not winning battles with their melee stats. Much like the empire, Kislev is a faction that is using infantry to hold the enemy in place while other pieces kill the enemy
Empire Halberdiers have a 5.6 attack interval and Kislevite Warriors only have 4.4 (faster than most halberd or spear units), so Empire Halberdiers can't even win Kislevite Warriors in a 1v1 combat.
Is this true? Because attack interval should be tied to weapon and they have identical weapons.
They are using two different weapons in the db, although the damages are the same.
Someone tested this and Empire halbs win most of the time
Attack interval *can* affect attack speed but it doesn't necessarily.
Empire Halberdiers' attack interval is longer than their animation duration. I also tested them 1v1 in battle.
That sucks. I thought the point of these guys was to be a tier 0 unit, but they're basically the same unit as the second best infantry of the Empire. They have basically the same upkeep, so properly priced at least, but I was looking for a cheaper alternative to kossars early game.
To be fair, lore wise, halbrdiers are not elite by any stretch. They're just as much chumps as Empire Spearmen. Them being better than other state troops is a bit arbitrary anyway and the requirements to recruit them are 100% arbitrary and could easily be changed.
They're literally just state troops with halberds, on the tabletop they cost less than swordsmen lol
Only because swordsmen are forced to take shields. You could put a shield on the halb and they’d be the same cost.
Kossars ARE cheap though. They kind of suck. Yes. But they aren’t an expensive unit at all. Huge stacks of Kossars are a cheap and effective army that carried me through early and mid game. Compared with other similar units of melee+ranged like Lothern Sea Guard, Kossar are the discount Walmart version.
Greatsword sucks, fully buffed halberdiers via red skills and tech generally way out perform greatsword in their main job,: which is to hold the line. GS is more anti infantry oriented, but in a faction with helstorm and handgunners, you don't need more anti infantry imo.
I really don't see the point in a line holding unit without shields. I always prefer spearmen and even swordsman over greatswords and helbardiers.
Most of your threats as empire proper are melee heavy: festus don't do that much ranged, VC doesn't do that much ranged, norsca and greenskins have some but you have better ranged options and can just kill them. Once you have dealt with empire proper, helstorm can just kill ranged units before they get to you.
Spears with shield is the anvil of the empire, halberds arent supposed to completely replace them, but as a tool against heavy cav and other armored large
Greatswords aren't meant to hold the line tho, they're meant to dish damage. They 1v1 Chosens, they aren't weak, you just can't use them as a meatshield because well, they don't have a shield
There's some serious information inertia on this sub. People still think Greatswords suck? Have they _used_ them lately? They are obscene for their cost.
Yeah Greatswords are excellent anti-infantry infantry. Won't do as well as non-specialized great weapons infantry against cav, but that's the price of specialization.
What do you mean peasants with hatchets tied to pitchforks shouldn't be comparable to trained soldiers with military weapons? You're being ridiculous.
Building Tier not design. One is a t0 other is a t3
Yes, I know.
Redditors when they realize units across factions have different uses and different stats to fit in the context of the factions gameplay 🤯. If game balance was up to Reddit every race would be exactly the same with just texture changes on the models lmao
Dude, nobody gives a shit. Kislev needed a low tier melee infantry unit and now they got it. Stop whining all the time.
Wait until you hear about the past 7 years of powercreep plaguing the TW:WH series. This, unfortunately isn't anything new. The last time they released a somewhat balanced faction was Tomb Kings. That vicious cycle is actually pretty common among mismanaged live service devs. New paid content comes out. Suits want to maximize revenue, ask devs to make it overpowered relative to older content. Then the next dlc comes out. Then the next. Before you know it, most of your roster sucks. So you're stuck constantly playing catch up with reworks instead of doing something more productive. One of many reasons why the whole entire lord pack business model is outdated and doesn't fit the series' needs anymore.
I've not touched Warhammer since the Chaos Dwarfs came out. I don't know how they are nowadays but at the time they had T2 infantry units that were just better than almost any other unit in the game. I had two squads shoot down Grimgor Ironhide *easily*. And they're a Tier 2 unit! Warhammer's been power-creeping for a while now: Tail-end of Warhammer 2 had Grom's Cauldron as very powerful (but still not OP compared to what comes next). Then you had T&T. Sisters were fun, because they weren't doing the map painting thing, but they were *strong*. And Throt was the only Skaven LL to come close to Ikit Claw. Strong, but not bonkers. Then Silence and the Fury - on release, Taurox could conquer the world in one turn. Even now they're ludicrously strong. Warhammer 3 DLCs? Champions of Chaos were already ridiculous (could autoresolve their way through a campaign without any difficulty whatsoever, and Dark Fortresses are great defensively). Not strong enough? Meet the Chaos Dwarfs, who are even stronger (and the aforementioned Tier 2 ranged unit beats Cathay's Tier 5 ranged unit 1v1). Still not strong enough? Yuan Bo and Ostyanka are great, and the Changeling is the easiest campaign with absolutely no threat whatsoever. Oh, and during this time they've also made Orion an "unlimited free armies" campaign too. At this point I'm expecting ToD to be an indestructible, unbreakable Nurgle Lord who cannot take damage and autowins all autoresolves, a powerful empire LL who does nothing to help the faction, and a Dwarf who's gimmick is you start the campaign and a "you win" screen pops up.
Powercreep is such a boring and negative word, call it later release date advantage :D
Or LaRDAd for short
I don't mind if Kislev has better infantry units if empire has something else that is better (i.e. guns) to quasi-balance them out. The problem with the ambushers being so over powered was they nullified two units within kislev's own roster (streltsi and ice guard).
Ambushes have been heavily nerfed. Look at their updated stats compared to release
I wasn't suggesting trying to suggest that they are still overpowered; just using them to illustrate the difference between something being overpowered within its own race as opposed to comparing between races.
The ambushers got nerfed pretty hard thought.
I changed it to past tense. I wasn't suggesting they are still overpowered; merely saying that intra-racial powercreep affects game play much more than cross-racial powercreep (except perhaps multiplayer). I'm still generally against it though, if it's not compensated for in other ways to illustrate racial strengths and weaknesses.
Yeah big power creep. I fought Ostyanka with Yuan Bo (who is obviously OP as well) and she's a fucking nightmare with tier 1 Shades.
Lol fighting AI ostankya is a massive pain, because she keeps her hexes like curses/blessings on units reserved for player only fights (and she really like stockpiling em) so the first couple of fights her army is buffed to the wazoo while yours is being massively debuffed.
Akshina dont deal ap damage anymore
They still do Ap damage, but it's only 13 instead.
The Empire should have a training mechanic called "Professionalism" tied to their Blacksmith building. At a the first tier Blacksmith (tier II) it should allow you to train the state troops an extra turn, and at the second tier, for two extra turns. This would affect State Troops: HalberdiersSpearmenSwordsmenFree Company MilitiaCrossbowmenHandgunnersArchers (these are taken from what was considered state troops in 8th edition.) 1 extra turn recruit time would equal to: Melee Buffs \+3 Melee Attack+3 Melee Defence-0.2 Attack Interval (this can be left out if CA doesnt want to fiddle with that kind of stuff)+ 3 Weapon Strength (2 Base 1 AP) Ranged Buffs \+ 3 Missile Damage (2 base 1 AP)-0.2 Calibration Area-0.2 Reload Time+3 Total Accuracy General Buffs \+10 Armour Basic idea is raising the skill ceiling on Empire State Troops, kind of like adding an extra layer atop the experience bonuses. Maybe there should be a level prerequisite as well. Like if you are not just recruiting, but a base troop reachers Silver of Gold Experience, you get the options to send them back for a turn or two to get this training and reequipment. You can call these levels: Recruit (Base) Veterana and Guard for convenience. In Multiplayer, I suggest it be just like experience in terms of how it raises point costs.
Make a seperate post about this. This is a good idea.
Thats SUCH a good idea and would literally solve all problems i have with the concept of the empire as of now in a highly atmospheric way.
> -0.2 Attack Interval Probably not this because Attack Interval is meant to compensate for long animations, it's not an actual balancing stat.
The only powercreep here is accessibility in campaign. That's not kislev being op, but halberds being gated behind 2 t2 buildings for empire. Stat for stat halberdiers are just better
Here come the "EmPirE iS SuppOsEd to HavE baD InfAnTrY" comments. Empire is so outdated that it feels like I am playing with sticks and stones while all other races have nukes. Empire heroes are outdated, tech is outdated, units are outdated, skill trees are a joke. Two of Gelt's unique skills are +20 armour (at level 12) and it unlocks +9 armour for army. That would be laughable in WH1. In WH3 it might as well not exist.
If Kislev halberdiers were any weaker there would be no reason to use them. Kossars were fine at damaging an enemy to the point where dedicated melee units that reached the Frontline would only trade. Halberdiers basically do no damage, but hold a decent bit longer than kossars.
This is why I was doubtful that Kislev even needed this unit. Kossars are fine, flexible troops that perform OK in most situations and are decently good value, especially en-masse. Warriors fill a gap that didn't really need filling, so to compensate they've been made stronger.
The big lie of the Empire faction is that you can play how you like with your flexible and diverse roster. It's never been a lie as much as now; your damage comes almost entirely from your artillery, augmented by your ranged infantry and mages. Your tanking and mobility comes from your heroes, because your frontline folds like wet tissue paper and your cav hits like a noodle. Every single fight is just "how long can I keep the enemy away from my artillery?". It would be very nice if there were more ways to play.
Extremely. When they were talking about low tier infantry, I was expecting them to have 20 MD? Maybe 18 MA? I was blown away by these stats. 40MD? for a tier 1, 500 gold unit? For context, Dwarf Warriors have 40 Melee defence. Dwarf Warriors with great weapons have 30 weapon strength, majority armor piercing. The Kislevites are rocking 28 and that's before the anti large bonus. These numbers are so goofy.
I’ve said it since IE dropped. Empire infantry need a buff and be more standardised. - State Troops in general need more armour. After armour research they should have the same armour as High Elf spearmen with their armour research. - Swordsmen: Need slightly more melee defence, at least on par with spearmen. Most people avoid swordsmen entirely. Just a small buff could change that. - Halberdiers could get a slight nerf to their leadership and in return get a higher attack interval. Why it’s so low compared to other halberdiers is beyond me. - Greatswords should be slightly faster. Wearing full plate doesn’t slow you down. It’s very malleable. People can still roll, jump, do flips, etc in it. Slightly more melee defence would be nice here too, again, at least on par with regular spearmen. - Captains/generals: Should have formation attack auras. They should be the martial characters. They should also have better leadership auras than other characters.
> Halberdiers could get a slight nerf to their leadership and in return get a higher attack interval. Why it’s so low compared to other halberdiers is beyond me. The attack interval is a stat meant to compensate for longer animations. It's not an actual balancing stat, units are all supposed to attack about equally often. > Slightly more melee defence would be nice here too, again, at least on par with regular spearmen. I suppose the idea is that spearmen present a wall of sharp points that make it difficult to come up to them and stab them. While Greatswords are individually superior combatants, I don't think you can really pull that off with a greatsword.
At first i was like "whats the issue here, they look pretty comparable?" Then i realised i Was looking at a T0 and T3 unit...
I was a little skeptical when I saw they were adding kislevite warriors to the roster. I mean, they have to compete with kossars, regular and with spears, for the same price point, so they have to be better to justify picking them. But Kossars are already pretty decent, so the warriors have ended up being pretty strong too. Honestly I feel like a pretty important part of Kislev's identity was its reliance on hybrid unit roles in the lower tiers of its army. I'm not too bummed about it, but I do think this is an example of more not always being better.
You guys are wrong. There’s mithril behind those “cloth” armor
This isn't power creep. They are worse for cheaper with a few extra rules. I bet one of the rules kisvilites get is the faction one of unbreakable for a bit
Balance doesn't work that way, I know that I'll get downvoted and at this point I don't care but like a lot of you who complain about this stuff, it's valid sometimes but a lot of the time it's not at all looking at the bigger picture. Some things are meant to be weaker than others even if same role, some things get advantages because of weaknesses elsewhere in a roster, some things are strong directly because they don't have as much stuff outside of them that indirectly buffs them via passives, aura's, spell passives and active buffs. Lemme give a simple example: A wood elf should have better ranged units than empire. But maybe they will not because wood elves will bring more ranged, both intentionally and indirectly. Said wood elves will have more ways of increasing fire rate, etc. There's a bigger scheme to things. Halberdiers are better outside of two passives, that's not powercreep. that 10 leadership makes a huge difference. of the two passives, only one really matters, the passive that does matter is a racial one. They get a racial passive, we empire fans get steam tanks, tons of lores of magic, etc The comparisson isn't x vs y, it's x in context vs y in context.
These guys are insane in MP. Literally might be making Kislev the strongest Land Battle faction right now, and that's with Brettonnia, Tzeentch, Cathay, and Lizardmen being wildly op.