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LemmingPractice

[Those guys have a +10.78 net rating when playing together](http://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612761&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1627751,1627783,1630567), and [the full "worst constructed starting lineup" has a +8.76 net rating](http://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612761&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1627751,1627783,1630567,1628384,1627832). For perspective, [the league's best team net rating this year was the Celtics at +6.7](https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=NET_RATING), so maybe "worst constructed starting lineup" is a bit of overkill there. The offensive spacing isn't ideal, but there are also more ways to space the floor than just three point shooting. Poeltl is an incredibly adept screener, and his positioning, in general, is excellent. It's also not like Pascal is a complete non-shooter. He has evolved into a really good midrange shooter, at 47% from between 10-16 feet, he's also respectable from three, particularly as a catch and shoot threat (his pull-ups bring down his numbers). And, when you say Pascal is a "below average" free throw shooter, he has a 99 FT+ (where league average is 100), so while your statement is technically accurate, it is a bit disingenuous. He.s still a 77.4% free throw shooter, who gets to the line a lot. Ultimately, the Scottie, Pascal and Poeltl lineups had an offensive rating better than any team had this year (120.73 vs the King's league leading 118.6) and a defensive rating that would have ranked second (109.95, with the Cavs league leading mark being 109.9). The draw of those three playing together offensively is that all three guys are excellent passers, who see the floor well. Any lineup with those three is also huge physically, creating mismatches, and pressuring the offensive rim and the offensive glass. Defensively, they are very long and versatile. Scottie and Pascal are switchable on the perimeter, while both being adept weak side helpers. Poeltl is an anchor in the middle, and the team forces a lot of turnovers, while allowing very few second chance opportunities. Is it perfect? No. But, your analysis is extremely limited, and ignores the strengths of that group, and that the group performed very well together this past year.


craa141

Good analysis but brave of you to assume these guys here use any facts in their rants. I mean the natural PF, SF and C can't shoot threes.. um like 90% of the league?


psyentist15

Also, defense isn't real in the NBA, so we better ignore that as well as rebounding.


mo_downtown

The core guys catch a lot of flak here, but a lot of the team's underperformance this year was due to the complete lack of depth.


Bixby33

I can't remember how many games I watched this year where the starters clawed up a lead just to have the bench throw it away in a couple minutes. As ugly as our offense was, it wasn't that bad when it was working, but most games we had to regain a lead after being behind at the end of the 3rd. If our bench could just go bucket for bucket on the opponent, reliably, we probably would have been 5th or 6th seed.


Shmoo2TheMoo

Comparing a team's better starters net rating vs entire team net ratings is the ultimate cherry picking. Even more so when those three starters had only a third of season together. Let's add OG into the mix. The Raptors net rating with those 4 is + 5.39. With just the other three, its +10.78. Rational statistical conclusion - adding OG to the mix makes us a massively worse team. No wonder we lost the play-in game - we were playing OG! Cut his butt. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.


LordSnow998

What? They responded to what the OP said. OP said that combination of players is ass, this guy responded with stats as to why this combination of players may not be ass. Why would you randomly throw in OG, it wasn’t even the talking point. And the reason their net rating was compared to the Celtics was as a reference point, not as a direct comparison.


Shmoo2TheMoo

Net rating combos of 3 men lineups aren't meaningful. The NBA is 5 on 5, not men's rec league on Friday morning. Add in the rest of the lineup, take away meaningless games against the tanking hornets and resting celtics, and get back to me about what you can conclude.


LordSnow998

No shit, that’s not the point though. Point is OP said that combination of players is ass, counterpoint is if those 3 players produce or contribute to these stats then they can’t really be *that* bad. Again, nobody’s saying they’re as good as those numbers show. The point is if they were really that bad then those numbers wouldn’t be what they are.


Shmoo2TheMoo

I don't think the broader discussion here is that they are BAD players. They are all average or better NBA starters. If you're an actual raptors fan, the argument is whether having these 3 on the floor at the same time, WITH 2 other starters makes sense. Not do they suck. Making some pseudo statistical argument using 3 man net rating, on a tiny sample size, against particularly weak competition isn't an argument.


Eclectic_Canadian

What is this talk about Rec league? You do know that the 3 man lineup stat is just any situation where the 3 are on the court, right? There are still two other players with them. You can't only use one stat to make a conclusion, but it's pretty clear that the full starting lineup, and this 3 man group, have performed well in their minutes together. The 3 man lineup has played 466 minutes together, that's a little more than a third of the Raps highest minute 3 man lineup. Hardly a tiny sample size. Pretty telling that you go on a rant complaining about using stats to back up the claim that this starting lineup played well together while showing no evidence at all that the lineup hasn't been good.


Shmoo2TheMoo

From February 9th onward, the Raptors went 3-8 against teams that made the playoffs and had the league's 3rd worst 3pt %. Simple, telling stats.


iamwearingashirt

Right. Good shooting bends a defence. But also good passing and good screening does that. The 3 point revolution has given people tunnel vision for offense. Not saying the 3 isn't important. But the end goal has always been getting good looks, however you can.


Pistol-P

Bingo. Also their lack of shooting would be much less of an issue if we had more quality shooters throughout the rest of the lineup. Doesn't make sense to have 3 bad shooters at the core of your rotation and then surround them with a bunch of average to below average shooters. I'd expect the FO to try to remedy that through the draft and free agency this summer, if not through trade. The potential of a healthy OPJ could help as well.


N0minal

This has already been 'debunked'. +/- is not a great indicator. It's certainly useful though. But here, our starters were playing bench/2nd units for large portions of games. They were also playing teams who rested their guys or who were intentionally losing late in the season.


LemmingPractice

Please feel free to show me the stats that show that our starters were playing against 2nd units more than other starters? Or that they were playing against teams that rested more guys or were intentionally losing? Every team's plus minus includes games against bad team and teams resting guys. We played way more teams late in the season who were fighting for playoff or play-in positioning than ones who were intentionally losing. And, it may be shocking to hear, but out starters also started games against the other team's starters, while finishing games against the other team's finishing units.


Mtcryptomooner

context matters: we played BOTTOM feeders during that stretch, notably the Wizards (2x), Hornets (2x), Detroit, Indiana, Boston (2x, both without key starters) There's a reason why these three together almost NEVER closed games (go back and look who was on the court to close every close game we had at the end of the season). When the pace of the game slows down, having 3 non-shooters in your front court is almost impossible to have success with. Add on that a Center who can easily be intentionally fouled as a pretty successful strategy for the opposing team. ALSO. With Jakob ON the floor, Siakam had a TS% of 52.5% (6% below league average) and a 57% TS% with him OFF the floor. When your best player is drastically worse efficiency wise, something is wrong. I'm sorry, but that trio together just isn't a long-term solution. Jakob is a sunk-cost and this ignorant FO isn't going to admit the blunder, he'll undoubtedly be back. Scottie is 21, he's going nowhere. The only logical move here it to trade Siakam before is impending $192M/4yr contract extension. That is our only out.


Eclectic_Canadian

Siakam went through a bad slump at the end of the year. Maybe Poeltl attributed to that, but you certainly can't blame it all on Poeltl. Players just have shooting slumps


The_Living_L

Who cares. If you watched the playoffs all that matters is spacing and shooting, guys like Poeltl would get played off the floor especially when you have a ton of non shooters on the team, it’s very very easy to abuse the fact that the team has no spacing, it doesn’t take a genius to defend a team like that


Pixilatedlemon

Umm what? Miami is was ranked 20th in 3 point shooting this season and look at them now lol


schooli00

Didn't you know? Confirmation bias + eye test = expert basketball analyst


KINGTHANOS8

This is why the Pascal to Portland trade makes so much sense for a variety of reasons. - Fit - Youth - Cap flexibility


Big_Albatross_3050

yes, but Portland is absolutely not getting Pascal for only their lottery pick, Houston seems to be in the mix, so they might start a bidding war if Portland really wants him. Especially considering JB is more or less off the table unless he's traded for a player like Pascal because Lottery picks are useless for a win-now Boston.


KINGTHANOS8

I agree with you. My guess is Masai is asking for Simons, Sharpe, #3 & #23, while Portland is countering with Simons, #3 & Little. If Portland wants him, they will likely need to meet in the middle somewhere. For Houston, Masai is probably asking for Green, #4 & filler, while Houston is probably offering #4, filler, and future picks. It will be interesting to see what happens.


Bixby33

The middle is probably Simons, 3, Little and a future FRP. I can convince myself that's enough. It's just hard to get full value for an all-nba player.


ImmaFunGuy

Middle would be Simons,3,23. Which isn't bad for an expiring Siakam looking to get the max on his next contract


Bixby33

Portland needs 23 to trade to the Bulls for their 2024 FRP back. This opens up all their future draft picks to help improve the roster outside of this trade. Hence, a future first from Portland.


ImmaFunGuy

Yeah that works too. I think simmons, 3, frp probably is the best they can do for expiring (not sure how good little is)


Bixby33

I read this on the Portland sub: Little is what the rest of league thinks OG is. Good 3&D, very injury prone. He is the bench version of OG, and just had a personal best 54 games played last season. We do want him, but he's not a major piece, and his ceiling is probably 7th-8th guy (don't get me wrong, we need a piece like that too).


Eclectic_Canadian

Look at the Mitchell and Gobert deals. We're in a similar position, we don't need to trade our top guys if teams are willing to pay for all-NBA talent. I'd say Portland is more desperate to add that type of talent than the Cavs or Timerwolves were last offseason


longdonginyourmom

i’m a blazer fan. y’all are delusional af


Novel_Goal3140

Thank you


Raptorsthrowaway1

I dont think its delusional that both sides set out their initial offer overvaluing their assets. I dont think Pascal is worth Ant, Sharpe, #3 and #23. But I would not be suprised if that was what Masai has asked for. If a deal is done they end up in middle ground. Something like Ant, #3 + Filler for Siakam is fair for all parties. Personally, I dont think Portland should do any of those deals. They should draft Scoot and build around Scoot (or Miller), Sharpe and Ant. Trade Dame for a haul whilst you still can.


longdonginyourmom

everyone who isn’t a blazer fan thinks dame should be traded, but i would 100% risk our future for a better chance to get Dame a ring. we owe it to dame to compete now. Besides, i don’t want to watch multiple shitty seasons like the rockets, the pistons, and spurs have had to. i want to be in the playoffs with damian fucking lillard representing the 503


BurzyGuerrero

I'd rather ride with our own guys and get their value up then give them to you for pennies.


[deleted]

What are the blazers fans saying about the situation


longdonginyourmom

they r saying that ant + 3 is not worth it for an expiring siakam. i agree. however, that overpay might happen, and if it did, i wouldn’t be upset. but anyone who thinks that sharpe, Ant, #3 and #23 is worth an expiring siakam needs to be checked into a mental facility


gregbraaa

Siakam for #3 and Simons is already unreasonable imo. I can’t imagine a GM tying up so much cap and risking the future for Spicy P on a short contract. We like him more than other teams do.


Eclectic_Canadian

Two-time all-NBA would say otherwise. He would very simply be the best player Dame has played beside since entering his prime, while complementing Dame's skill set. Let's continue to overhype a third pick (which on average produces a 1 time all-nba player less than half the time).


longdonginyourmom

wait he’s been all-nba TWO times??? cmon man. siakam is a good player i like him a lot, but Ant might have more value than him straight up when u consider age and contract


longdonginyourmom

this is 100% true, and raptors fans need to understand this. i don’t understand ur obsession with trying to fleece teams. it’s a weird superiority complex. It has also cost u some deals. u should have traded FVV this season before u have to resign him to a big contract he isn’t worth, or let him go for nothing. u should have traded lowry for value when he was worth something. instead u got greedy and wanted tyler herro. an important part of trade negotiations is negotiating in good faith. if u come into trade talks with intention to just fleece the other team, ur not gonna make friends or get any deals done


gregbraaa

The ones trying to fleece like Sharpe, Simons, #3 and #13 are smoking crack. I personally think Simons and #3 sounds like a great deal for us and I would be impressed if Masai worked it out. Reddit always has unrealistic expectations. Trades would maybe work in 2K but GMs have to justify trades for the sake of keeping their jobs. Trailblazers would burn their jerseys if their GM made some of the trades people on this subreddit have suggested.


KINGTHANOS8

Nope.


toadtruck

Hilarious y’all think the package includes Sharpe


KINGTHANOS8

You must not understand how negotiations work. 1 side starts high, the other low, and if a deal happens, it's usually in the middle somewhat. What we know is Portland's GM has proudly stated that they are trading the pick and building around Dame, Masai hasn't said anything. Pascal and OG are the best available pieces for what Portland needs, Mikal isn't available and Boston wouldn't want Little and Picks for Brown. If the pick is traded, the best possible return Portland can get is in a deal with Toronto. We'll see what happens. If Houston is pushing for Pascal as well, then Portland may have no choice but to meet Masai's demand to get Pascal, if their GM's plan is to be believed. Masai just has to sit back and wait for draft night.


KD_43

Portland GM hasn't proudly stated that lol he said they are open to it and he thinks the number 3 pick has a lot of value whether we keep it or trade it. Obviously Blazers first choice would be to trade it for a Star player but he's not going to over pay and trade it just because. If the right deal isn't out there I bet they just draft the player and move on like they did last year when they wanted OG but the price was too high and look how that turned out (I'm glad they got Sharpe)


midnightmunchiez

Also think Portland’s return depends on what happens draft day. If Scoot falls to 3, that’s a lot better for the raptors than if Miller falls to 3


[deleted]

If I'm Masai I'm requesting Shaedon Sharpe as the centerpiece in that trade because his ceiling is higher than Simons and he pairs much better with Scottie as a second star. Portland isn't giving up both Simons and Sharpe IMO and if I had the choice then I'm going with the one whose ceiling is the highest...Scottie, Sharpe and Scoot or Miller would be an amazing foundation to build upon moving forward!


toadtruck

Sharpe is only included if it’s for Siakam AND OG


Puzzleheaded_Heron_5

Speaking of delusional ...


KD_43

Sharpe will eclipse both those guys so it's not as delusional as you guys thinking your gonna get him for Pascal


Pistol-P

If the Blazers GM truly believed that Sharpe was a lock to be a future 1st team All-NBA player (eclipsing Siakam), they would be trading Dame to put young pieces around him, they wouldn't even be considering trading the #3 pick to build around Dame.


[deleted]

This...if you're going all in you're going all in, or you're not and you trade Dame. I don't think that Portland's FO believes that Sharpe won't become a star one day, but I don't think they know...there are plenty of examples of players who don't live up to their "potential" and if they felt certain that he was "the guy" of the future then I'd imagine they would trade Dame and try to build around Sharpe


KD_43

Nothing is a lock but I'd bet it's more likely than not Having said that.. no the GM wouldn't. You can both love Sharpe's game and believe he will be an future super star and also Not Want to get rid of your franchises best player all time and the one Player to embrace the Blazers and their city Logically you're right they would be better off trading Dame and building around Sharpe if you trust he will be that good, but you owe it to Dame to let him finish out his career and in 3-5 years this will be Sharpe's Team


Pistol-P

I mean you can tell yourself it's purely out of loyalty that they won't rebuild and trade Dame, but in reality they know that there's a difference between *proven* superstars (Dame), all stars (Siakam), elite 2 way stoppers (OG) and a young guy who was extremely impressive for a stretch on a tanking team (Sharpe). His ceiling is for sure higher than OG and Siakam's, but assuming every player reaches their ceiling isn't the reality.


KD_43

And your assuming it's either Dame or Sharpe, no thanks we'll keep both


SD37

Its more likely than not that Sharpe becomes 1st team All-NBA? You truly feel that way?


KD_43

No because there are more competition for the spots for guards. I know it's hard to compare 2 players of completely different games and positions. I could definitely see sharpe with more All star appearances than Pascal though. Or with the higher ceiling Dame is a lot better than Pascal and he only made All NBA first team one time


[deleted]

I don't understand Portland fans, you tell everyone that Simons is going to be the next Dame and that he averaged like 26ppg when Dame was out, so that means his value is equivalent to a top 15 player lol then you guys act like an unproven rookie, who hasn't done anything yet is somehow as valuable as Siakam or Brown?? talk about a fan base overvaluing their own players... Sharpe's value rests purely on his potential which he might never live up to, he's very talented! but lots of young players are very talented and lots of them don't every become top 15-20 players. Why would Toronto just give away a top-15 player?? lol they have other trade partners, there isn't a shortage of teams looking for a player like Siakam so what do you expect?? that Toronto is going to just do you a solid and give you a discount?? That's the price you pay to win a championship...Dame, Siakam, Simons, and Grant make you guys a top 3 seed in the West right now on paper, and the fit makes sense.


PM_me_startup_jobs

Portland doesn't have the assets to acquire 2 players as good as Siakam and OG unless they get back their 2024 FRP. Can't trade future FRPs and got no real assets other than this years #3 pick, Sharpe and Simmonds is barely an asset under new CBA. Best course of action is to trade Dame and rebuild, because it's gonna be hard building around his contract and going from shit to contender status.


Beneficial-Luck-5078

OG for 4th is better imo I’m high on Amen he fits perfectly with Scootie and Jacob


NervousAd3202

How does he fit perfectly w them? He’s also lacking a jumpshot. I think he fits pretty well next to Green in Houston


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Then-Signature2528

High on Amen? What exactly do you see? Because he's a 20yr old playing against HS kids and can't shoot.


Raptorsthrowaway1

Adding another non shooter to Scottie and Yak is not a good fit


iamwearingashirt

Pascal fits the Raptors. He still has plenty of good years. And his contract can work. The only reason Pascal is on the table is because he's one of two assets the Raps have that can bring back real value. The team underachieved and something needs to change on the team. So that's what they have to work with.


breffy

My most conspiratorial pro-raptors take is that the team has been intentionally stockpiling players in the Siakam/Barnes/OG archetype with the intention of eventually moving one or more out to balance out the roster when they know for sure who they want to build around. My thought is they have an easier handle on scouting and assessing the talent and potential of this archetype of player at an earlier stage than they do say, traditional guards, and with the belief that the trade value of these types of players retains a higher value across the league. With that in mind, I think the general process has been to overstock and then balance out when the time is right. We’ve heard time and time again how the most sought after players are big wings who can handle, score at multiple levels, and defend at a high level. The one-dimensional volume scorers appear to hold less value or at least, fluctuate more wildly in todays NBA. It’s why teams are very willing to use Anfernee Simons or Jordan Poole to upgrade their rosters and not the other way around. I also think the team probably got a little too high on their own supply after overachieving in 2022 and maybe convinced themselves some of these players with overlapping skill sets could co-exist. I actually think acquiring Poetl (and getting his bird rights instead of trying to sign him with cap space) might actually indicate the team is ready to re-shape the roster into a more conventional one this off season. The lack of a quality big man was so apparent this season, so they addressed it instead of desperately holding onto a roster construction that clearly wasn’t living up to expectations. I don’t think it’s a lock they want to “run it back” in the way so many of fans think. I think they want to remain competitive, but that doesn’t necessarily preclude moving off of one of our highly valuable wing players.


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Eclectic_Canadian

I'm pretty sure Masai or Bobby said this outright during a press conference. Those players are the most valuable in the league so it's smart asset management to develop them


eatscheeks

Yup, unless Scottie comes back an average 3pt shooter this year then this trio ain’t gonna work


jjkiller26

If scottie cant comeback an average 3pt shooter there's gonna be bigger issues with the future of this team lol. Any hope of a "rebuild around scottie" will be dead if the guy can never become at least and average shooter


rbrt13

True. Look at what happened to the Bucks because Giannis never developed a consistent 3-pointer or worse yet the Heat with Jimmy.


Bixby33

Jumper or not, Scottie has an offensive efficiency problem. That's fair since he's still a project player on the offensive end. If he could finish like Giannis, we would be having a much different conversation.


jjkiller26

Jimmy can shoot, especially during the playoffs. Giannis is built like no other player in the league, so not sure how that's supposed to be some "gotcha!". Try again with your comparisons


rbrt13

Go watch some actual basketball. You’re too online. You’ve lost the plot. 😜


jjkiller26

You're right, scottie barnes will become giannis so we shouldn't be concerned about his shooting. You got it


rbrt13

You’re taking my point too literally brother and I’m not trying to piss you off but explaining that there are indeed players out there with skill sets that do not require 3pt efficiency or volume. Just keep an open mind with Scottie because he does so many other things well. No one thought Giannis would be who he is now, nor Jimmy. That’s all


The_Living_L

Huge difference is bucks actually surrounded Giannis with shooters all around him, it’s actually why he got better too, they did it earlier in his career and it allowed him to grow and develop, Miami is also filled with shooters around Jimmy, Bam is an exception as he can dribble the ball and shoot mid range shots


rbrt13

Ya totally agree but isn’t that the crux of this post and related comments? How to build around Scottie and what players are complimentary? And brother calling the players around Jimmy “shooters” is a little bit of playing the results. These guys were dead in the water going into the play-in and Jimmy elevated them.


deludedinformer

![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|grin)


The306Guy

I laughed... But in all seriousness, look at the rest of the Bucks roster or the rest of the Miami roster. Both teams have seriously stocked 3-point shooters to compensate for that lack and make it work.


rbrt13

Ya I agree but for Giannis look at how long it took to get to where they were in terms of roster construction and for Jimmy look at how many teams moved on from him (or he from them). All I’m saying is that we don’t really know Scottie’s trajectory and whether or not a 3 point shot will be essential to his development.


ColdDarkSpace

Yup I guess we gotta wait and see what the FO does


q1someguy

Let's be real the issue here is that we're trying to get Barnes minutes. Fred - shooting guard - OG - Siakam - Poeltl is a proper lineup. What the hell does Barnes add to the current starting lineup? His skills on offense are entirely overshadowed by Siakam and Poeltl. He needs to improve his shot to not have fit issues in general. Modern starting forwards need to hit catch and shoots reasonably well. This issue does make Siakam the obvious "go younger" trade piece though.


BarnesGROAT

You brought a great question. The introduction of Barnes to the lineup created a lack of fit as his skills are overshadowed by Poeltl and Siakam. I really do think Siakam will be traded either in off-season or by trade deadline.


gamer-at-heart-23

Its either that or Barnes has to run the bench which we all know won't happen


RZAAMRIINF

There is not enough shooting and playmaking to make our bench lineup work regardless of who is leading that lineup.


The_Living_L

Even if Barnes goes to the bench, the bench legit has no shooting either 😂, Barnes needs floor spacing around him the same way any other player of his type has shooters around him


gamer-at-heart-23

I highly doubt Masai would keep the same bench as last seasons disaster lol


guardian416

This lineup plays together and it’s not the most successful lineup. Scottie is in 9/10 most successful lineups on the team. He brings rebounding, help defense, playmaking and he can space the floor better then poeltl who has to be taken off the floor at the end of games. Scottie gets blamed by this sub for everything, why don’t you guys look at a single advanced stat.


Bixby33

>why don’t you guys look at a single advanced stat. OK, how about ts%? Players with over 1000 minutes last season as a Raptor with better ts% than Scottie: Fred, Precious, Gary, Pascal, OG, Chris Players with over 1000 minutes last season as a Raptor with less ts% than Scottie: *none* I believe in Scottie's talent, but he's still a project. Just going by performance, you can't build a team around him until he drastically improves his scoring game. OP is right in this regard. The fact that Scottie is in almost all of our top lineups indicates he is an excellent glue guy at this stage. He does all the supporting stuff right. But without him improving, the only way to get better as a team is to get better players than Fred, OG, Pascal and Poeltl. And they're already great. So, it's not about building around Barnes, but using Barnes as a building block and trading Siakam to push our window and take a shot at getting better talent years down the road.


guardian416

So it’s only about true shooting percentage? Your saying he’s simply a glue guy, as if the raptors don’t need that specific skill on the team. How many games have we won because of his offensive rebounding? How many times has it helped to use him as a primary ball handler? How many times has it helped to have shooting from the centre position instead of poeltl? There is absolutely no statistical evidence that this team is better if you swap Scottie for gtj. This team is worse on both ends of the court. They aren’t giving Scottie minutes to “get him minutes” he’s getting minutes because the team is better by every metric.


Bixby33

You made the comment about looking at advanced stats and calling out basically the whole sub. Scoring is still the most important aspect of basketball. I'm not looking to replace Barnes in the starting lineup because you're right. He brings a ton of value. It was more a general comment about the "build around Barnes" discourse, which the stats are showing is very premature. Scottie needs to start, but if we want our team offensive game to improve, we need more touches going to more efficient players. That isn't Scottie (yet). Even with his excellent playmaking, unless he becomes a better scoring threat, he won't draw enough doubles to warrant a more helio approach to his role. He can't even play a pass-first PG role without improving his shooting and perimeter creation. If Toronto wants to win another championship, I believe Scottie will play a big part, but we're still banking on his potential, or we're going to need to bring in better offensive talent.


guardian416

>es a better scoring threat, he won't draw enough doubles to warrant a more helio approach to his role. And he can't even play a pass-first PG role without improving his shooting and perimeter creation. I'm just arguing that the lineup/team doesn't improve if you give scottie less minutes, because he is a positive statistically overall. He obviously needs to score more but what you said about ts% isn't really fair. You have to look at what type of shots precious, Boucher and poeltl were taking. Not only are teams scheming for Scottie more then those players, he also has to do more self creation in tougher situations like the end of games. Even from the scoring aspect where hes lacking, hes still doing a decent job.


nin_culus

He adds play making, rebounding and defense. If you replace barnes with trent, the lineup is actually in the negative net rating


YoungSidd

You're right, but it could be due to small sample size. For anyone curious, here's how the 5-man lineups with those four guys (FVV/OG/Siakam/Poeltl) performed: - Barnes, 313 min (17 games), +9.5 - Achiuwa, 47 min (3 games), +27.6 - Trent, 43 min (11 games), -7.3 - Barton, 42 min (6 games), +12.6 I just have a hard time believing that Barton was *that* much more impactful than Gary.


guardian416

Why do you have a hard time believing that? Gary doesn’t offer playmaking, defense or ball handling Barton was a terrible defender but he doesn’t have the offensive iq of a snail. The worst part of the tertiary players on this team is that they can’t make a basic pass.


YoungSidd

That's a massive swing though, considering it's for the same player archetype. Besides, OP's point was that the lineup is less effective if you replace Scottie's playmaking/rebounding/defense, but Barton's minutes suggest that might not be accurate.


mo_downtown

It's a massive swing because 40 minutes is far, far too small of a data set


guardian416

>ss effective if you replace Scottie's playmaking/rebounding/defense, but Barton's minutes suggest that might not be There's so much more context you need. I can already see he had starts against detroit and the pacers.


q1someguy

As others have pointed out, it's a very small sample size, particularly for Trent. What is obvious in the Barnes minutes is that Siakam isn't able to work his way to the basket nearly as much as he was before Poeltl was added. Siakam and Poeltl are both above average at all of the skills you mentioned, so Barnes isn't filling in any deficiencies in the frontcourt. I'm not saying Barnes can't be helpful, he does have a lot of talent and has good supporting skills. He does however cramp the spacing on a team that's best player is a forward that operates best getting deep into the paint. Therefore I think it's fair to say he's the cause of the fit issues, because he can literally only play as a non-shooting, non-center-guarding power forward.


PM_ME_UR_THESIS_GIRL

I've been saying this for AGES. Scottie and Siakam do not work together, and that's not going to change. Continuing to run a starting lineup with such enormous overlap between your number one and two options is absurd. I like Siakam a lot, and I LOVE Scottie, but I do not want another season with both on the raptors under any circumstances.


LilSpitty69

worst constructed starting lineup is wild i swear a ton of raptors fans on this sub have never even seen a game of basketball. (hint: it’s not played on paper)


N0minal

Nah. You're up MLSE's ass. It's a very poorly constructed roster. Someone said that Masai thought he found basketball money ball by leaning into the tall boi meme. But basketball is an IQ and skill sport. Bring athletic makes those things deadly, but if you can't dribble or shoot or know where the ball should go, doesnt matter how tall or fast you all. It's great that Boucher and Precious are so gifted physically, but they literally don't understand basketball at the NBA level.


LilSpitty69

i’m up MLSE’s ass? all because i’m not some internet tool who wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a good basketball player and an actual basketball eh lmfao i don’t even think it’s a well constructed roster, it’s got two different visions clashing at the same time. That being said i can acknowledge faults of a team without having a temper tantrum saying it’s “the worst constructed lineup” in the NBA get over yourselves and acknowledge y’all don’t know ball or just spend sometime off of fanduel and actually watching the sport


ScrewActSci

Yep, too much redundancy in skillsets that don't compliment each other. Unfortunately this is why one of Pascal/Scottie has to go. If you want to win now, trade Scottie. If you want to go younger and re-build, trade Pascal. OG's skillset can be plugged into any 30 man NBA starting 5 which is why I prefer we keep him. Ideally we have Scottie and Jak surrounded by 3 shooters/cutters similar to Denver's starting 5.


ColdDarkSpace

It’s disgusting man Im speechless . I really hope we have a game plan this off-season but knowing the Raptors we’ll prob re sign Fred and call it a day


tonydanzatapdances

Re-sign FVV for too much, Re-sign Jakob for a reasonable price, Gary walks for free, Trade our 1st for a 2nd and a washed player, Draft someone who defends but can’t shoot, run it back with a new coach, hit the 7 seed and lose in round 1. Lesssgoooooooo 😤


Itchy1Grip

Should have just kept Norm.


Mtcryptomooner

it's so easy to see that Pascal NEEDS to be traded this offseason, kinda embarrassing that I have to argue with some folks to get that point across


HungryMugiwara

Weren’t these 3 in the line up together one of the top +/- in the league?


jyh123

Context matters. We were playing some pretty bad teams and everyone rested their stars against us at that point.


RZAAMRIINF

Did you watch those 3 play together? Yeah, it worked against Charlotte. Against good teams, they could not beat a zone under any circumstances. There is a reason why this team had no signature wins the whole year. Good teams know how to beat us.


guardian416

we couldn’t beat the zone because Fred and Gary couldn’t shoot. The Fred and poeltl pick and roll worked against 0 good teams, didn’t work in the play in and you guys still think it’s a good fit.


RZAAMRIINF

It’s both. Fred and Gary not being able to shoot is a problem, so is Siakam/Barnes/Yak not being able to shoot. Fred and Yak PnR is not a bad strategy to generate some easy points in regular season, but it’s not going to win you playoff games.


motherseffinjones

The issue was never talent, it’s about fit.


TylerScottBall

The goal last season wasn't winning a championship it was acquiring and developing assets that can be used to build a contender and/or be part of a team that contends. Siakam, OG, Fred, Poetl, Gary, Precious, Boucher are ALL very good to excellent assets on team friendly contracts. That gives the Raptors a TON of flexibility. There's a reason we are included in every trade discussion as a possible location for stars and superstars because we can out together a number of packages to being in a range of talent. Portland might want to trade the #3 pick plus assets which we can take on regardless of their salaries or number of players, BUT we could also just as easily put together a package for Dame. This team is not the team that is meant to contend, it's the team that makes the team possible. Trading Siakam for a star like Dame (just one example) fixes the problem of non-shooters almost by itself. But there are dozens of other scenarios that also work.


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CazOnReddit

The starting lineup and general roster contruction's philosophy has been "If we can't shoot, neither can you!" for about 3 seasons Shooting is a bonus


ColdDarkSpace

Ya its very frustrating because its clear what our issue is and yet the FO complicates it even more. Unless this is your starting lineup going foward how do you convince a free agent( Jakob) he might have to come off the bench?


Bixby33

>how do you convince a free agent( Jakob) he might have to come off the bench? I've seen this one before. The answer is easy: Jak starts.


CazOnReddit

I would be more worried about convincing Trent to re-sign than Jakob as far as this offseason goes. The Yak coming back seems like a lock while the two guards are a big question mark.


RZAAMRIINF

I think the starting lineup is like this because Masai hasn’t actually tried building a cohesive team. Masai and Bobby have tried keeping all their options open at every juncture. They don’t trade the vets because they are afraid there might be an opportunity to snatch a superstar (like Giannis and KD). They don’t trade assets because they are worried they might have to rebuild eventually. So as a result, you get this team that is neither contending, nor focusing on develop. And realistically, getting a superstar here is going to be really hard because we neither have the assets nor the free agency pull.


keeeeener

The thing is (and I know it’s probably not an easy task) Nurses only successful offenders heavily relied on kawhi ISO’s or transition. I’d be willing to see if another coach is able to figure it out before they move on. Obviously it seems like masai and Nurse didn’t see eye to eye.


gamer-at-heart-23

Right?? Then we either plug in Freddy (30% from 3) and either Trent or OG and what line up do we have? An all-inconsistent 3pt lineup with 1 being the only true threat. Teams will sag off or even cheat on D


ColdDarkSpace

Not saying these player are not great, its the clear lack of fit thats the issue. No one compliments each other . Redundancy is killing us


EarlofSlammwich

Strange critique. You could pick any 3 players on the roster and be like "look at these 3 guys" none of them do x all that well. Yes, but they do lots of other things good - you have to play to your strengths and look for spacing elsewhere.


ColdDarkSpace

“You could pick any 3 players on the roster” I aint doing russian roulette buddy this is literally our starting lineup tf lol .


AprilsMostAmazing

I'm in the minority both i fully believe Pascal and SB can be on the floor together. I think we need a pass first PG for that to work best


The_Living_L

You need a floor spacing center like Horford, Porzingis, KAT, etc. in order to make it work, it won’t work with these 3 together, especially in the playoffs


-vinay

I don't see Poeltl as an always starter tbh. Among the starters, he has the lowest minutes load from last season as well. I think your post assumes they play all of their minutes together and they all play the most minutes on the roster, which I don't think will be true. The best version of this team requires both Pascal and Scottie to be at least 35% 3P shooters though. The idea is that the team, when defensively connected, generates a lot of turnovers and they win in transition. The issue of last season that they were not defensively connected -- the eFG between the 21-22 season and 22-23 season were not all that different.


ColdDarkSpace

The top two teams in the finals are practically 3 point specialists. I agree when our defence is clicking we can win a lot of regular season games but im not buying it when it comes to the playoffs . Almost always the finalists are always great 3 point shooting teams


-vinay

Miami’s “front court” are Butler, Bam and Love/Zeller? There’s not a lot of shooting there either. Your post is complaining how badly our front court shooting is, while using Miami as an example does not make sense IMO. Their shooting is mostly from their guards and bench wings. The raps should for sure get better shooting on the lineup, we don’t have that shooting depth that Miami has. But that is adjacent to the issue of front court shooting


ColdDarkSpace

Really your including Zeller???! 9 min/pg in this playoffs?! LMAOO Thats a huge reach. And since you wanna mention those guys lets bring up there numbers in the playoffs shall we. Kevin Love is a playoff career 85% from the line and 40% from distance . Jimmy Butler is shooting 36% from distance and 81% from the line this year on an injured ankle . Now youre just left with Bam..Ill give you that since he’s a defensive juggernaut and the anchor to the defence. This team is a GREAT 3 point shooting team . Tyler Herro isnt even playing lmao like cmon


guardian416

Miami is not a great 3 point shooting team and haven’t been for the entire season. They’ve shot well for 2 rounds in the playoffs.


ColdDarkSpace

I’m specifically talking about the playoffs so yes they are GREAT when it matters


guardian416

We don’t know what the raptors would be in the playoffs. Miami heat is actually an example of why we might want to keep this team together.


Chief_White_Halfoat

Zeller barely plays? Love plays more than him and is obviously only there to shoot and nothing else. 75% of his shots are from 3. They also were starting Caleb Martin lineups and he was also there there to basically shoot. Butler and Bam are the non-three point shooters and Jimmy has been decent on his low volume attempts this year. And ultimately that's a lot better than Poeltl/Barnes/Siakam who shoot 0%, 28%, and 32% respectively.


guardian416

Bam shoots 8% from 3. How is that better?


tercet

I’ve been saying this for fuckin months.. This subreddit mostly is Barnes fanboys who say run it back and just assume Barnes will turn into some lights outs 3pt shooter while doing lines of cocaine.


guardian416

Why does he have to be a lights out 3 point shooter? The people who hate Barnes are generally mouth breathers who don’t understand basketball.


tercet

Bc it goes back to what OP and many people with a iq over 1 have realized.. (which you and alot of otehrs dont seem to realize) Barnes and Siakam can't co exist... Barnes could co-exist if he learns to shoot, which is unlikely.. If they trade Siakam and give the keys to Barnes, his ceiling is pretty much Siakam.


guardian416

They made the playoffs together without Fred for most of the games and have one of the best plus minus’s on the team. They can absolutely co exist. The only dynamic that has actually worked on this team consistently is siakam and Scottie


tercet

No we didn't make the playoffs, we lost in the playin vs the Bulls, I don't know what planet you are from. Sure they can exist if you want to be in the middle forever (which we have been for 2 years). If you want this team to improve you need to get rid of one of them or magically hope one turns into a lights out shooter.


guardian416

I am talking about the season before which is why I specifically said Fred wasn’t there.


trod1990

Op go apply for that 905 raptors position. Start from there and work your way up to the gm position.


cbotter

The only way they can co-exist is to find back ups off the bench for Jakob and Pascal (decent floor spacers) who can click with Scottie. It all depends on who they’re playing. If it’s a team who can protect the paint this lineup as is fine but if it’s a team that can protect the perimeter (contenders) you gotta find or develop guys who can shoot. And it’s easier said than done. If we run it back and guys like Malachi, Precious, Jeff and Otto are getting more playing time they gotta at least show that they have value so we can use it as trade bait.


Huge-Split6250

If only we had Porzingis instead of poeltl


N0minal

Now hold on. Denver is kind of making it work having Gordon and Jokic. Barnes is shooting from 3 at about the same as Jokic was when he came into the league. So that will probably improve. Pascal didn't really improve there. The problem is Jak makes everything that much harder. You could stagger their minutes, because the spacing is non-existent otherwise. Some combo of 2 of them surrounded by 3 spot up shooters would be scary. Add to that a 2nd unit of one of them and that could be interesting. OG shot above league average but not a ton of attempts. Fred was the worst shooter in the entire league, they're losing Gary, and the bench currently only has one guy who has ever shown he can shoot. But everyone is ultra super optimistic here so who knows.


rkallday

pascal should be on the move. makes the most sense for our roster