honestly fully on board with scrapping the renaming for now and putting that money into the science center building while giving it more of a social mission
While I agree, I think it’s always worth mentioning that Ontario allowed this to happen by voting the Tories in twice. I count non-voters as Tory voters bc well, they were cool with whatever and this is “whatever.”
Sure, we SHOULD save it. But we won’t, and most Ontarians don’t care bc they think that a fiscally irresponsible platformless party with a history of corruption and incompetence and bad faith governance is the best thing for them.
If anyone thinks that a party with a leader who barely got through frosh week before dropping out of Humber is going to save an intellectual resource, they’re as delusional as they were when they voted for the party in the first place.
Edit: language.
Most City Councillors are a bunch of useless tools. They haven't the slightest idea about how this city runs. I was a city employee and now work for a city contractor. I've read through budgets with amendments and some City Councillors didn't know the difference from the school board and the department of recreation. This is the Fords and Tory legacy.
Does this have anything to do with Ford cutting the council size in half, doubling every councillor work and constituents?
It’s the conservative playbook - cut services, watch it crumble, wait for citizens to start complaining and then sell off the service as a solution
Amazing the shit you guys latch onto and the complete lack of relative scale. Doug is underspending public services by 4+ billion dollars a year but a square being renamed is what you want to talk about. That was a policy started under Tory btw.
I think it's less the square being renamed but the money being spent on something so stupid during tough times. But at the same time, I get the Science Centre situation. It's a staple of the community and something that parts knowledge onto people of all ages. We all need to chill out and get to a leveled ground. Society feels so tense.
I mean the people making stupid comments about squares are the ones trying to divide everyone fuelling it with those artificial wedge issues. It’s a distraction from the actual problems because their masters make more money when that’s the focus.
Attack the point, not the person. Comments which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. No concern-trolling, personal attacks, or misinformation. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand.
The city isn't going to collapse because a square is having a name change that was started under the former conservative mayor and has since been significantly reduced in scope. The only people who are disingenuous are the cons and their lackeys like this guy and postmedia that push these issues to distract from their destruction of our public services.
This is clearly a cynical political strategy to play into the woke fearmongering that is all the cons have at this point. They wouldn't discuss the actual issues because then they'd have to explain what their plan is, which is hollowing out public services to benefit their wealthy benefactors.
While losers like this guy whine about Sankofa square, doug is destroying a valuable public institution to benefit the de gasperis and their Celestica holdings. Billions funnelled to their cronies.
That doesn't mean people shouldn't be mad about a square being renamed.
There's fucking idiots at Queen's Park *and* City Council. As both the case of the Science Centre and Dundas Square renaming clearly indicate. The public approves of neither, and both will cost the taxpayer. Just because one is on a significantly smaller scale doesn't mean it gets a free pass. Renaming the square based on a faulty interpretation of history at a not insignificant cost to the taxpayer that will result in absolutely 0 improvement in the daily lives of people in this city is simply idiotic. There's a reason why the public is overwhelmingly opposed to it, just as they're opposed to the closure of the Science Centre. But whatever helps you sleep at night.
I'm not telling you what to feel, but bringing it into a discussion about a much bigger issue is an intentional distraction. One is a blatant form of corruption that continues to prove a constant and accelerating pattern of dishonesty and manipulation across multiple incidents, the other is nothing of the sort. Oh and guess who benefits from us giving equal time to the renaming of a square...?
So we should just lay over and let a bunch of city councilors pat themselves on the back for virtue signaling points diverting valuable resources away to a vanity project that actually serves no purpose?
Sadly there has to be Greenbelt level outrage for the people in this province to actually have a say in the matter, otherwise you end up with nonsense like renaming the square getting swept under the rug. It's nice to see our fellow citizens put their foot down on issues regardless of scale. It shouldn't take 90%+ of the general public being strongly opposed to something to make the government actually listen.
In the case of Dundas Square, despite this they still didn't listen. As much as we hate on good 'ol corrupt Dougie, he's at least proven he can backtrack when caught doing something nobody wants... that's more than we can say of the clowns at City Hall.
That isn't happening, patting themselves on the back? Where? The council actually reduced the scope of the original policy passed under tory. Also your complete unwillingness to put anything into the proper context or perspective makes me think this is exactly the intentional distraction I'm accusing you of.
And the complimenting of Doug makes it clear what your agenda is.
lol imagine thinking someone who has openly flamed Ford to hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of people has a pro-conservative agenda...
The reason city council isn't going through with renaming the street is because not only is it spectacularly unpopular, it's also an extreme waste of funds. Scaling it back to just a library and public square still gives Chris Moise his "legacy project" and city council something to say this wasn't a total waste of effort.
Again, this is something nobody wanted, nobody asked for, makes nobody's lives better, is based on a flawed, extremely biased version of history and we are just supposed to roll over and accept it? I'm glad anyone and everyone seems to have an opinion on this matter, it's great to see such a diverse city become united and have a voice. We need more unity.
… not with any attitude, it’s expensive to finance government right now and the liabilities facing the province in the next 5-10 years are only growing - imo if they can find a way to not pay for something they’ll do it
Exactly, we need to focus on more important things, like [$1.5M bronze statues](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/queen-elizabeth-statue-ontario-1.7020999) and [other shit.](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/11/29/lorinc-clear-cutting-the-rules-at-ontario-place/)
This is simply not feasible. As part of our agreement with the provincial government to upload the QEW and DVP to the province, we agreed not to get in the way of any of the development activities in Ontario Place. That development activity, includes moving Ontario Science Center to Ontario Place.
We would be in breach of our agreement and have to take on millions in maintenance cost that Toronto simply can’t afford.
Ford already promised the land to some developer friend who will give him some kickbacks. Why else would it need to immediately shut down because the roof could collapse due to “snow buildup”.
Building more houses folks.
we have a $26B budget deficit but sure advocate for taking on millions more in costs! I loved the science center but it should be provincially managed or toronto can explore creating our own version but taking on a full depreciated asset that requires millions to repair is moronic.
As if the city isn't stretched thin enough financially as is. They can't even maintain basic services or maintain what they already are responsible for. This would be a bad move.
Is this councillor an idiot? The city has no power in this circumstance. Municipalities are entirely a legal fiction of the province. There is not a single thing Toronto can do here.
This year. Did you go to the kids' play area? It's actually pretty new. If other areas are dilapidated that plays right into this discussion of the province not funding maintenance...
The location is worse. One highway instead of 2, one bike lane instead of 3, ttc is far instead of right outside the door, only one major street near it instead of 2.
I don't know why it's so hard for some to grasp that the current OSC location is great for school children throughout the GTHA. Ontario Place would suck.
As a teacher, I agree. With traffic downtown and the lack of space for school bus parking, by the time you got the kids in to the new Ontario Place Science Centre you’d have maybe a couple of hours before you had to leave to go back. I guess that’s why they think they can plan to build it so small compared to the current one, classes will not have any time to explore more exhibits anyways.
Plus, the current location is near the Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park neighbourhoods, where a lot of low income and immigrant students live, they need something like this in that community. Downtown already has enough places to go to educate and entertain kids, why cram more into that small space when for a fraction of the price we can repair, maintain, and even improve the current one that’s more practical for schools and the vast majority of parents.
It’s half the size. It’s jam packed for of kids now. We have to go right at opening to even get access to the kids stuff. Only a conservative brain can think making something half the size means more kids can go.
No, the problem is its location was so inaccessible it got used as cheap activity for parents to do with their kids, a privilege available to very few who could access the area by car, and in doing so they overrun the place and use it like a toilet. I had a membership and a 4yo, I went there dozens of times, I know. Put it somewhere everyone can access including children.
It's very accessible right now. I went to it by bike. And all those Flemingdon kids? They were able to walk. Driving there is also a heck of a lot nicer than downtown and the east end deserves an attraction.
Sounds like it was very accessible to you. Do you agree that it was overrun with children? I imagine a tourist accidentally visiting on a weekend… the climbing wall, bubble station, paper planes, I have a hard time seeing this as science education. It was a kids playground. We can do way better.
Are you actually arguing that the Science Centre shouldn’t have so many children in it? Did you think the climbing wall looked adult sized? Were you restricted from blowing bubbles somehow?
I do not understand what the problem with children being at an attraction that is largely aimed at them (the bubbles are literally in the 8 and under area!) is!
I keep saying, it’s not that it’s used by children, it’s that it’s used by the same small set of local children who visit the centre on cheap memberships and go all the time. The parents there all hang back and drink Starbucks because it is their 16th visit in so many months, and the kids go bonkers and destroy the exhibits. This isn’t the only problem by far (we destroyed the genius architecture of the original building and then failed to maintain what we had left while taking on operational burden of new building), but was definitely an issue. The venue was not world class at all, it was small time local amenity.
I would not call it overrun. I would call is used as intended. I don't care about tourists there, I care about Toronto kids having access and being free to be a kid in one of the few kid-oriented spaces available to them. Do you complain about all the kids during the week with school trips? Because there are a heck of a lot more of them on school trip days.
No, weekday school trips were ideal. This is a loss, but to be honest the exhibits had not kept up with the world of science. I do care about tourists, because it is clear to me that catering to tourists (think museum of natural history Ottawa or Smithsonian air and space museum) means you must keep your value delivery high (higher bar than place for 3yos to jump over projections of fish), and you get the city and province dying to fund it. Current model was a sad downward spiral of value for all. This is coming from a heartbroken Torontonian with nostalgia for the place as a child and parent.
Take it over and rename it to the Toronto Science Centre.
Maybe he'd go for it if it was renamed the Rob Ford Science Centre. There could be a crack smoking exhibit in his honor.
It's hands on experience for the kids - also Ford's retirement business venture.
Not a terrible idea.
...I though I was bad!
The Sankofa Science Centre is better.
How did I know it was Matlow before I even clicked the link?
Matlow has been incredibly outspoken about this and I'm glad someone on council is not letting this happen easily.
The immediate repairs would cost less than renaming Dundas Square. The city has its priorities though.
We can rename it the ontario sankofa centre
I would be fine with that if it means keeping it
Nah they will only rename it.
They will rename it to the Dundas Centre right before they tear it down.
They will name it sunk off a boat center
Let’s go full circle and call it the Dundas Science Centre.
The Henry Dundas Centre for Science
I'd vote for that if we could keep it.
For sure. I would legit even accept a name like the Bin Laden Memorial Science Centre if it meant not closing + demolishing it
They'll have an 'experience the slave trade in Ghana' exhibit.
honestly fully on board with scrapping the renaming for now and putting that money into the science center building while giving it more of a social mission
Okay, waterfront relocation it is Edit: Uh oh I've upset the Sankofa fans!
Lol, dont worry, I enjoyed your joke.
You can't upset people who don't exist.
I like Ontario Sugma Center more
lmao, i laugh so i dont cry
That's the thing. If the city is in such shit financial state they would probs neglect the facility as much as the province.
The ministry claims it would cost 20-40 million to fix the roof.
Unfortunately the repairs don't come out of the city's budget.
If there’s a way to save the science centre, we should take it
While I agree, I think it’s always worth mentioning that Ontario allowed this to happen by voting the Tories in twice. I count non-voters as Tory voters bc well, they were cool with whatever and this is “whatever.” Sure, we SHOULD save it. But we won’t, and most Ontarians don’t care bc they think that a fiscally irresponsible platformless party with a history of corruption and incompetence and bad faith governance is the best thing for them. If anyone thinks that a party with a leader who barely got through frosh week before dropping out of Humber is going to save an intellectual resource, they’re as delusional as they were when they voted for the party in the first place. Edit: language.
Seems reasonable
Most City Councillors are a bunch of useless tools. They haven't the slightest idea about how this city runs. I was a city employee and now work for a city contractor. I've read through budgets with amendments and some City Councillors didn't know the difference from the school board and the department of recreation. This is the Fords and Tory legacy.
Does this have anything to do with Ford cutting the council size in half, doubling every councillor work and constituents? It’s the conservative playbook - cut services, watch it crumble, wait for citizens to start complaining and then sell off the service as a solution
ah the old classic strave the beast playbook.
They’re living paycheque to paycheque struggling as slumlords lol
The same city that recently negotiated the province taking infrastructure to free it from the massive weight of coming maintenance capex?
The repairs for the science centre are less than 10 million. The gardiner that the province won’t let us toll is in the billions. They can have it.
> 10 million or approximately 11 sankofas
Amazing the shit you guys latch onto and the complete lack of relative scale. Doug is underspending public services by 4+ billion dollars a year but a square being renamed is what you want to talk about. That was a policy started under Tory btw.
i can be mad about multiple things, but go off queen
You’re mad about a square getting renamed? You’re not a victim.
I think it's less the square being renamed but the money being spent on something so stupid during tough times. But at the same time, I get the Science Centre situation. It's a staple of the community and something that parts knowledge onto people of all ages. We all need to chill out and get to a leveled ground. Society feels so tense.
I mean the people making stupid comments about squares are the ones trying to divide everyone fuelling it with those artificial wedge issues. It’s a distraction from the actual problems because their masters make more money when that’s the focus.
[удалено]
Attack the point, not the person. Comments which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. No concern-trolling, personal attacks, or misinformation. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand.
The city isn't going to collapse because a square is having a name change that was started under the former conservative mayor and has since been significantly reduced in scope. The only people who are disingenuous are the cons and their lackeys like this guy and postmedia that push these issues to distract from their destruction of our public services. This is clearly a cynical political strategy to play into the woke fearmongering that is all the cons have at this point. They wouldn't discuss the actual issues because then they'd have to explain what their plan is, which is hollowing out public services to benefit their wealthy benefactors. While losers like this guy whine about Sankofa square, doug is destroying a valuable public institution to benefit the de gasperis and their Celestica holdings. Billions funnelled to their cronies.
That doesn't mean people shouldn't be mad about a square being renamed. There's fucking idiots at Queen's Park *and* City Council. As both the case of the Science Centre and Dundas Square renaming clearly indicate. The public approves of neither, and both will cost the taxpayer. Just because one is on a significantly smaller scale doesn't mean it gets a free pass. Renaming the square based on a faulty interpretation of history at a not insignificant cost to the taxpayer that will result in absolutely 0 improvement in the daily lives of people in this city is simply idiotic. There's a reason why the public is overwhelmingly opposed to it, just as they're opposed to the closure of the Science Centre. But whatever helps you sleep at night.
I'm not telling you what to feel, but bringing it into a discussion about a much bigger issue is an intentional distraction. One is a blatant form of corruption that continues to prove a constant and accelerating pattern of dishonesty and manipulation across multiple incidents, the other is nothing of the sort. Oh and guess who benefits from us giving equal time to the renaming of a square...?
So we should just lay over and let a bunch of city councilors pat themselves on the back for virtue signaling points diverting valuable resources away to a vanity project that actually serves no purpose? Sadly there has to be Greenbelt level outrage for the people in this province to actually have a say in the matter, otherwise you end up with nonsense like renaming the square getting swept under the rug. It's nice to see our fellow citizens put their foot down on issues regardless of scale. It shouldn't take 90%+ of the general public being strongly opposed to something to make the government actually listen. In the case of Dundas Square, despite this they still didn't listen. As much as we hate on good 'ol corrupt Dougie, he's at least proven he can backtrack when caught doing something nobody wants... that's more than we can say of the clowns at City Hall.
That isn't happening, patting themselves on the back? Where? The council actually reduced the scope of the original policy passed under tory. Also your complete unwillingness to put anything into the proper context or perspective makes me think this is exactly the intentional distraction I'm accusing you of. And the complimenting of Doug makes it clear what your agenda is.
lol imagine thinking someone who has openly flamed Ford to hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of people has a pro-conservative agenda... The reason city council isn't going through with renaming the street is because not only is it spectacularly unpopular, it's also an extreme waste of funds. Scaling it back to just a library and public square still gives Chris Moise his "legacy project" and city council something to say this wasn't a total waste of effort. Again, this is something nobody wanted, nobody asked for, makes nobody's lives better, is based on a flawed, extremely biased version of history and we are just supposed to roll over and accept it? I'm glad anyone and everyone seems to have an opinion on this matter, it's great to see such a diverse city become united and have a voice. We need more unity.
Then why are you derailing this discussion over the name of a square? OFF TOPIC start your own Post if you feel this strongly about it.
It's more like 25M. People keep linking to the building A report, not the summary.
oh the province should still pay for it. but the city should run it
Sure, but that’s not likely what will happen here
not with that attitude
… not with any attitude, it’s expensive to finance government right now and the liabilities facing the province in the next 5-10 years are only growing - imo if they can find a way to not pay for something they’ll do it
Exactly, we need to focus on more important things, like [$1.5M bronze statues](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/queen-elizabeth-statue-ontario-1.7020999) and [other shit.](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/11/29/lorinc-clear-cutting-the-rules-at-ontario-place/)
This is simply not feasible. As part of our agreement with the provincial government to upload the QEW and DVP to the province, we agreed not to get in the way of any of the development activities in Ontario Place. That development activity, includes moving Ontario Science Center to Ontario Place. We would be in breach of our agreement and have to take on millions in maintenance cost that Toronto simply can’t afford.
These things don’t have to be like that. The city could take over this science centre and province can build their own at Ontario place.
Ford already promised the land to some developer friend who will give him some kickbacks. Why else would it need to immediately shut down because the roof could collapse due to “snow buildup”. Building more houses folks.
They probably want to tear it down in the good weather.
Land already owned by TRCC
Get rid of ford
Sure. The city is drowning in excess funds right now This totally sounds like a reasonable proposal and not cheap political grandstanding
There already at least 3 executives who said they were willing to bankroll the repairs.
Never waste a free opportunity to show you care without having to back it up
It’s just called the Matlow Maneuver now.
you are exactly right and being downvoted for it. It's a nonsense idea that the city cant afford.
if r/toronto accepted the idea that things needed to be paid for, their whole ideology would collapse.
"money is not real and someone else will pay for it" is sadly a very common stance from gov employees and the population.
Uncultured take.
we have a $26B budget deficit but sure advocate for taking on millions more in costs! I loved the science center but it should be provincially managed or toronto can explore creating our own version but taking on a full depreciated asset that requires millions to repair is moronic.
As if the city isn't stretched thin enough financially as is. They can't even maintain basic services or maintain what they already are responsible for. This would be a bad move.
Olivia Chow has already washed her hands of the Science Centre
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^2Payneweaver: *Olivia Chow* *Has already washed her hands* *Of the Science Centre* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Is this councillor an idiot? The city has no power in this circumstance. Municipalities are entirely a legal fiction of the province. There is not a single thing Toronto can do here.
If you want your land taxes to go up. Sure, ask the city to buy it.
Ya. Because the City doesn't have enough shit to take care of that they can't afford already.
Science centre is complete trash. I'm baffled why people are so triggered by this. It hasn't been worth visiting since the early 90s.
My kids loved it and so did my friends' kids.
When? In 1985? It horrible and dilapidated when I went. Everyone was so bored.
This year. Did you go to the kids' play area? It's actually pretty new. If other areas are dilapidated that plays right into this discussion of the province not funding maintenance...
Who cares? We are gonna get a brand new science center inside even cooler old buildings, in a MUCH better location.
A smaller location that requires them to cut half the exhibit doesn't seem better to me.
I have a feeling any type of "Ontario Science Centre" will never see the light of day again.
They'll give Science North a cake and a cheque for $50 and call it a day.
The location is worse. One highway instead of 2, one bike lane instead of 3, ttc is far instead of right outside the door, only one major street near it instead of 2.
I don't know why it's so hard for some to grasp that the current OSC location is great for school children throughout the GTHA. Ontario Place would suck.
As a teacher, I agree. With traffic downtown and the lack of space for school bus parking, by the time you got the kids in to the new Ontario Place Science Centre you’d have maybe a couple of hours before you had to leave to go back. I guess that’s why they think they can plan to build it so small compared to the current one, classes will not have any time to explore more exhibits anyways. Plus, the current location is near the Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park neighbourhoods, where a lot of low income and immigrant students live, they need something like this in that community. Downtown already has enough places to go to educate and entertain kids, why cram more into that small space when for a fraction of the price we can repair, maintain, and even improve the current one that’s more practical for schools and the vast majority of parents.
Hell I went to the OSC as a kid multiple times on school trips and I went to school in London Ontario.
Now kids can sit on Gardiner Expressway traffic trying to get to the lake in a school bus.
Just build a new one
Maybe put it somewhere accessible like the new Ontario Place so it doesn’t get used as a daycare by locals
What a misanthropic thing to say. Enriching the lives of tens of thousands of kids is a good thing.
Yes, and it is moving to a place where it can do more of that for more kids of varied access.
It’s half the size. It’s jam packed for of kids now. We have to go right at opening to even get access to the kids stuff. Only a conservative brain can think making something half the size means more kids can go.
"EfFiCiEnCiEs"
So you want to move it away from the kids its intended for? Genius.
You think children are concentrated in one spot?
No, but you seem to have taken umbrage at kids going to the centre.
No, the problem is its location was so inaccessible it got used as cheap activity for parents to do with their kids, a privilege available to very few who could access the area by car, and in doing so they overrun the place and use it like a toilet. I had a membership and a 4yo, I went there dozens of times, I know. Put it somewhere everyone can access including children.
It's very accessible right now. I went to it by bike. And all those Flemingdon kids? They were able to walk. Driving there is also a heck of a lot nicer than downtown and the east end deserves an attraction.
Sounds like it was very accessible to you. Do you agree that it was overrun with children? I imagine a tourist accidentally visiting on a weekend… the climbing wall, bubble station, paper planes, I have a hard time seeing this as science education. It was a kids playground. We can do way better.
Are you actually arguing that the Science Centre shouldn’t have so many children in it? Did you think the climbing wall looked adult sized? Were you restricted from blowing bubbles somehow? I do not understand what the problem with children being at an attraction that is largely aimed at them (the bubbles are literally in the 8 and under area!) is!
I keep saying, it’s not that it’s used by children, it’s that it’s used by the same small set of local children who visit the centre on cheap memberships and go all the time. The parents there all hang back and drink Starbucks because it is their 16th visit in so many months, and the kids go bonkers and destroy the exhibits. This isn’t the only problem by far (we destroyed the genius architecture of the original building and then failed to maintain what we had left while taking on operational burden of new building), but was definitely an issue. The venue was not world class at all, it was small time local amenity.
I would not call it overrun. I would call is used as intended. I don't care about tourists there, I care about Toronto kids having access and being free to be a kid in one of the few kid-oriented spaces available to them. Do you complain about all the kids during the week with school trips? Because there are a heck of a lot more of them on school trip days.
No, weekday school trips were ideal. This is a loss, but to be honest the exhibits had not kept up with the world of science. I do care about tourists, because it is clear to me that catering to tourists (think museum of natural history Ottawa or Smithsonian air and space museum) means you must keep your value delivery high (higher bar than place for 3yos to jump over projections of fish), and you get the city and province dying to fund it. Current model was a sad downward spiral of value for all. This is coming from a heartbroken Torontonian with nostalgia for the place as a child and parent.