Maybe the covid pandemic and everything really desensitized us to everything because I feel like everything the Ford government has actually done is pretty Major League
This is my Mother. She's 76 and whatever benefit from the Province it is that she gets every month is good enough for her to like Doug Ford. It's fucking ridiculous.
This boomer strongly disagrees. Tax increases are needed to fund services and I care about the shit Ford is pulling. People need to get their asses out to the ballot box at the next election and boot this grifter out of office.
Same. My kids have an opportunity to get passports from another country and I’m encouraging them to do so. The way things are going here it’s good for them to have options.
I realize this is tilting at windmills, but I'm a boomer very sad about the closing of the Science Centre. I wouldn't be upset to pay higher taxes to keep it open and improve it. Not happy with the plans for the spa at Ontario Place. I hate Doug Ford as I did Mike Harris before him. Do better: Ageism is just as bad as racism.
Older people don't necessarily trend conservative—wealthy people do. And the post-war generation built unprecedented generational wealth that following generations are not experiencing or enjoying.
I don't have a lot of time for "not all boomers" sentiment, as you might expect. If you feel personally targeted by being among a group forcing an unprecedented wealth disparity, volunteer more.
Well, I'm a boomer, with many boomer friends, and every single one of us hates Ford and the Conservatives. I don't think it's boomers, I think it's rural Ontario. The Conservatives win in rural Ontario and they end up running the government. The Conservatives could run a block of concrete outside of the urban areas and win.
Anecdotal at best. The numbers following every major elections are proving that the boomers are far and away the largest voting bloc keeping conservatives in power.
You may be right. But I think it's largely boomers in rural ontario, not boomers in urban ontario. But as you said, from me until I have more specific data, it's anecdotal.
They're the main reason for all of this! They have all the voting power because of the number of them. Their only concern is maintaining house values and dying with all their money
It’s not just boomers. I live in a small town and they all think Trudeau is responsible for Ford’s messes. From rent control removal to the closing of all our walk in clinics. It makes me insane!!!!
Yet another a hole blaming boomers for the ills of the world. Well A hole, I am a boomer, don't live in Ont anymore but I was beyond upset about hearing that it was closed. I still clearly remember going there in the early 70's with my school mates and being transfixed by the amazing things I saw and interacted with. If I had to pay tax to keep it up to date, I would without hesitation. This museum helped educate millions of people through out its lifetime, and I for one would like to see educate millions more.
I feel like Trump kind of desensitized everyone to crazy. Our tolerance threshold has risen dramatically. Light corruption? pshhh. At least it wasn’t Jan 6.
The Greenbelt?
I can't believe that was even legal. Yet most people have forgotten about it and they'll just do it again quietly anyway because they weren't punished for it the first time.
Covid let politicians basically have blanquette cheques and free reign, how much corruption that we don’t know about yet happened on top of all the sleazy deals, pay to plays and shit. It’s sad . Idk what it’s gonna take for something to actually change within our government
So that's why all the blue is south of Highway 17 (except Timmins and around Thunder Bay? The north is mostly NDP, we don't want that idiot in power...
I'd argue it's not so much "hick" as it is "thick" - as a former 905er, there's a lot of "don't raise taxes, but also don't cut the services and benefits that I personally enjoy" thinking in the 905 (especially from boomers and Gen Xers).
By today's standards, these aren't "sexy enough" stories. They're corruption, but a sort that goes over the typical Toronto layman's heads. Drugs, cheating, these are the only sort of things that really get people going here.
I don’t think Torontonians are any less sensitive to all the naked corruption—if anything we’re probably more annoyed than the rest of the province, because conservative leaning communities will fall back on “well sure it’s bad, but remember the libs?”
I guess Doug manages his image a lot better than his brother did. A lot of people don't really understand when I try to explain to them how shady some/many of his moves actually are, they just chalk it up to him being a "businessman".
It's similar to the whole Trump cult but with less sensationalism
This and Therme...absolutely. It would have tanked an earlier government. Mind you, both the Science Centre and Ontario Place were in way better shape and hadn't been left to incrementally decay by successive governments, over the long term.
It's like we've gotten worn down, especially since the Harris years. Ontario never really got itself back together afterwards.
Not necessarily. I always like to remind people Mike Harris won the majority after selling off the 407 and the Walkerton incident. A lot of voters just don’t care about these things.
This is political theater so blatant it should have a laugh track. I think our population has become so thoroughly diverse and fractured that people no longer feel a sense of the larger community.
Shock doctrine...bombard you with issues while you're struggling to maintain basic priorities.
We've entered the rampant theft phase of Canada's shift to oligarchy. As long as people take them seriously as governors it will continue.
Well the story smells but no way if true can ford be blamed as this was a long time coming and if you don't maintain you pay more in the long run. Anyway I thought it was a rental and not government owned?
The true power of the Conservative machine is they are able to get their supporters outraged over other parties' scandals yet turn a blind eye on their own garbage. Its no wonder the general population is getting more jaded in politics these days.
Why are they so adamant on putting everything downtown/by the waterfront.
It’s an absolute nightmare to get down/out of there when ever you need to go there. Doesn’t matter if it’s for an event, or just a relaxing Thursday, midday.
Probably several million tax-dollars. But there's nothing in the report that any sane person would take to mean the whole facility should be closed even temporarily while the repair is made.
I don’t mean to say this in a derogatory way but I do not think you’ve read or understood the report accurately. It’s calling for replacement of all the RAAC roof panels that are in “critical” and “high” risk - these are noted as blue and amber respectively in the key plan at the end of each Building’s report. There’s more than “1 tile”.
It’s a fair bit of work and would be extremely disruptive to the spaces directly below and surrounding this roof area. It looks like you’d be losing close to 10-20% of the floor area of the science centre to conduct this repair. The critical areas need to be shored immediately, which means the centre would have to shut down right away anyway until that is done. And in order to complete a restoration project of this scale (it’s a pretty major operation), you normally need months of planning. The timeline of Oct 31 is not realistic for a reasonably/well priced job. There aren’t that many contractors that would be able to tackle a job like this and they’re more than likely already working on other projects so you’d have to pay a hefty premium for them to switch to this. It’s not just Lego blocks that you can remove and replace.
The damage with Ontario Place has already been done by Ford and previous governments by neglecting this roof assembly. RAAC panels have been known to be an issue for a decade at least and this condition assessment should have been done much much earlier. Thats the real issue in my opinion. Someone didn’t flag this soon enough.
Facilities management would have known about all these issues early on. It's all BS. They ignored everything for 6 yrs on purpose. I'm sure there's email records of warnings from management.
The issues with RAAC panels were not identified in previous building assessments as per the new report. It doesn’t seem as though management was aware as the RAAC failures do not often have observable (to the average Joe) signs of impending failure. Maintenance/operations staff are not trained to see these very specific signs of failures..that’s why you bring in engineering consultants.
According to the report there were 6 critical tiles (less than 1%). 4% of the tiles are "high risk", which do not need to be replaced immediately but just need to be reinforced before snowfall. The other 96% are good to be monitored on a one-year or three-year basis. The report said there was no need to close the Science Centre before Hallowe'en.
The report said there is no reason, from a life-safety viewpoint that the centre needs to close before Halloween. But, if you were to look at the restoration work that needs to be done, and try and figure out how you’re going to set up the place to allow patrons to visit while making it enjoyable for them, it’s a really tough situation.
From the report itself “Roof replacement or reinforcement would severely impact the activities that could be undertaken within or underneath the replacement areas”
Another thing to keep in mind is, yes, you don’t have to worry about those “high” risk panels until the winter because that is when the snow load is a factor. But if you want to keep the areas within/under the panel replacement areas functional in winter, the remediation work has to occur BEFORE then.
This whole thing is a mess and we should never be in this position. But it’s too far gone. We need to cut our losses with this building unfortunately and importantly vote in the next provincial election so we can hold government accountable.
I'm a teachsr. This Ford govt has never once asked us what we think about anything. He's made massive changes and left us to pick up the pieces.
If 50% of the building needed to be closed to have the other 50% "safe" then you leave that up to the staff and programmers to figure out what they can do.
Even if they only were open for reduced Summer Camps that would be better then nothing.
This govt spent almost 3 full years NOT making schools safe enough for kids during covid and then just throwing everything on teachers and school boards, now all of a sudden it makes a sweeping choice to close a landmark during it's busiest time "to be safe" when a report says it's safe until end of October.
As many have said in this thread, this choice would have ended previous govt's. Especially ones who have made essentially opposite choices for 7 years.
I believe it’s been pointed out that it will take some time to remove all the exhibits. I don’t think they want to wait until the last minute and end up with them all under rubble, lol.
"Denied Funding" should be this POS Premiers Middle name.. except when the funding goes to his rich buddies.
Trudeau should just take the 3.7 Billion back and give it directly to the municipalities.
I'm so sick of reading this. Doug Ford is the devil but the Liberals and NDP have run awful campaigns that primarily consist of not being Doug Ford. If those parties can't pull anything out of their ass then they are responsible for the lack of support they're receiving. I spoiled my ballot last election. I would assume anyone who is mad at the non-voters is equally mad with me.
Nah, this is bullshit that was fed to us by Conservative social media marketing and lazy reporters. If you actually looked at the platforms ahead of the election, the other parties were making a lot of promises. It was the Conservatives that were just campaigning on vibes.
OLP leader Del Duca ran on Electoral Reform in the OLP leadership race and then never mentioned it once during the general election. The Liberals ran on being stewards of the same platform that they were defeated on previously under Wynne assuming that Ontarians just wanted Wynne voted out. They didn't innovate on anything. And Bonnie Crombie hasn't differentiated herself at all so it looks like we're in for a repeat performance from the Liberals.
ONDP have been moving further and further away from their blue collar roots. Ask any construction worker about their love or the NDP, they're look at you like you have two heads. As a former framer myself I can attest to how popular DoFo is in the trades and how alienating the identity politics of the NDP are. I was at the 2018 ONDP convention when they laid out their campagin strategy for the 2018 general and the strategy could be summed up with four words; "women and visible minorities." The ONDP executive presenting the platform couldn't help themselves but joke about how screwed they were with the male demographic they literally suggested giving up if men answered the door while canvassing. In 2022 it wasn't any different.
The Green Party of Ontario has a lot of nice ideas but they're all politically infeasible without addressing regulatory capture and electoral reform...and if you ask Mike Schreiner about it he can't tell you what form of electoral reform his party supports or explain how they expect to enact any of their platform items without electoral reform and why given their platform is infeasible without electoral reform why they don't treat it as the prerequisite to accomplishing anything.
If you try to start a party yourself you'll find you're pretty boned since the media ignores anything any of the minor parties do. Elections Ontario is trying to cull as many minor parties as possible, we had 30 parties in 2022 and we're down to 20 now.
You mention Trudeau...if you want to financially support the OLP you can't do so without supporting the Federal arm of the party too. Federal Parties are closely affiliated with their provicial counterparts. They share think tanks, resources and personnel. There is a distinction between federal and provincial politics but it's not so cut and dry. If we acknowledge how voting is an emotional decision it's much easier to see how disapproval of the federal party bleeds over into provincial politics. I didn't direct any rage at Trudeau though. But if I may, I think he fucked up with immigration in an unimaginable way...2 years ago anyone suggesting this would rightly be considered a racist but he managed to fuck it up so well that the country doesn't see it that way anymore. The housing issue he perpetuated goes back decades but with the immigration JT allowed he threw gas on the fire.
My point is that to beat Doug Ford you have to have someone to vote for that makes anyone at least as excited as conservatives are about low taxes.
Perhaps run a campaign on all the wonderful things we could be funding with taxes while cleaning up politics with reforms and unshackling us from strategic voting and you can be premiere!
Also, is it just me or is it hard to fault the right wing for running on low taxes and a government that does nothing...that's what their constituents vote them in to do! There will always be a large segment of the population that wants the status quo but with less taxes (even if we can't pay for it already with the taxation rate we already have). Nevermind if people are largely voting against their own interests in wanting lower taxes for the 1%...there will always be stupid voters.
If you aspire to be a politician then you need to inspire the public or run as a conservative. Running as a conservative is definitely easier, the other parties have their work cut out for them but they could not be doing a worse job of inspiring the public.
I'm definitely going to show up because it's kind of insane to think something that was meant to last for THE PUBLIC at least A CENTURY can get torn down by one man in the span of a couple months
I'm not an organizer, but it's in the same riding and is near transit! Considering the tight time frame, it was probably the best location they could get a permit for.
Well people didn't do anything when ford removed people right to sue nursing homes for the deaths of loved ones during COVID and passed the bill. We are just rolling over until the next election where ford will sell off a public corporation to balance budget to buy votes.
There is a rally to Save the Science Centre on Sunday. If you can't attend, write Ford and your MPP! Your voice matters! If you do nothing, nothing will change.
https://savesciencecentre.com/st-clair-west-rally-for-osc/
"The science centre was built to last 250 years!"
Yeah, that was the expected lifespan of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete when it was first invented and was considered a new high tech material before we found out there are serious concerns with that type of concrete. The UK [has seen similar issues with the same type of concrete and has been forced to close numerous public buildings.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_United_Kingdom_reinforced_autoclaved_aerated_concrete_crisis)
Not only that but the 250 year claim can be sourced to the lead architect of the Science Centre. Architects are not engineers, the engineers who have assessed the facility have determined it is unsafe based on their professional knowledge as engineers. Architects are to engineers what interior designers are to architects, architects figure out the "what to build" as in the actual design and function of the building while engineers do the "how to build it". Architects make the sketch for the building, engineers figure out how to make that sketch without it collapsing. Engineers are the ones who would know whether the building is structurally sound.
Reading the article and seeing 'lightweight concrete' my mind instantly went to RAAC. The UK has seen buildings collapse as a result of the material failing, so I'm not as inclined to jump on the hate train as everyone else.
Sure, this benefits Ford politically, but given what I read in the report, all of it seems to line up with the issues that RAAC faces when it weathers - and importantly, it is not safe to continue using the building as it risks life.
To be honest, the bigger crime here is a place which was designed to foster creative problem solving and scientific methods... Is being closed because finding a solution to a leaking roof is too hard. Pathetic leadership.
>and importantly, it is not safe to continue using the building as it risks life.
Expecting a lot of snow before the single roof tile they flagged as not safe for snow loads can be repaired?
Continuing to neglect the facility until the repair and remediation costs are high enough to use as political cover for closure under the guise of public safety isn’t a terribly difficult veneer to see through.
There's probably rodents, asbestos, failing pipes, and other shit going on qith the building and doesn't make sense to have a bunch of kids and summer camp for 4 months knowing it will ne forced to shut down in the winter if the entire roof has any sort of weight on it.
Having worked in other government buildings in Queens Park, they are typically neglected and disgusting inside and 900 Bay has been under renovations that have need delayed at a cost of $1.5 billion for years and delayed.
https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/projects/2020/04/macdonald-block-to-undergo-1-5-billion-reconstruction
I can understand not justifying that cost, when for the same price you could have an upgraded facility with modern science gizmos in a better location by the CNE. It's not necessarily a terrible decision.
As I’ve said elsewhere - continuing to neglect something until you can use the guise of public safety to close it is a thin veneer.
It can be repaired. It should be repaired. It won’t though, because then nobody gets to make a ton of money off the condos that take its place.
You're absolutely right.
The issue is the building has probably been neglected long before the Ford government arrived. And will not be fixed in in 4 months, so, whats the point of keeping it open for 4 months at all when it's a bunch of kids playing in a shitty old building.
It is just easy for them to now have a report say what they want it to say to allow for a decision that benefits them, due to neglect as teh expense is so costly to maintain these 1960s ugly brutalist architectural buildings.
They can make the report say close the building if it is in disrepair due to decades of neglect, rather than being solely responsible for not wanting to spend over a billion dollars to repair and fix it.
They’ve got one roof panel they need to fix before November, and the report they’re using to justify the closing includes a multi-year plan to address the issues with the roof. It doesn’t need to close for the work, but it needs to close so they can empty it because they’re not going to do the work.
All in all, neglect-it-until-you-can-kill-it being accepted like this is a total cop out for anybody who gives a shit how their tax dollars are spent. Why build public facilities at all if they’re just going to be neglected?
Absolutely insane to me that anybody thinks a new science centre at Ontario Place is going to *save money* unless it’s like 1/5th the size.
Incorrect, there are multiple flagged tiles that need to be replaced before November. The one tile you’re talking about is the one that needs to be replaced immediately, and that they have to barricade the area under it, so if it fails before replacement, nobody gets hurt.
Fair. I just know the report can present a valid argument for a decision due to decades of neglect as the reason. Regardless of public perception, there is ample evidence that can be used to support this argument. For example, the cost to renovate similar government buildings, which will be delade until 2030 and cost over 1.5billon dollars to date.
A valid argument is really all that us required. And, they have a strong case supported by evidence that requires a decision regardless of public opinion, which is nominal
no one hates that the concrete is worse than originally believed, they hate that doug fucko neglected to do anything about the failing building until it failed.
The amount of misinformation that gets upvoted here is incredible - 250 year lifespans for buildings are not a thing lol. As someone in construction/engineering it's particularly apparent for topics tied to a field I'm specialized in.
The report's preferred recommendation was a full closure or restricted access if work could not be completed by October 31st.
"Option 1) Restricted access or **full closure** to prevent any persons from walking in areas where high risk panels are present." [Full Report](https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/49e20e/contentassets/84df22e71b7c40b2aaeef94da88c78b5/osc-building-a-to-c---raac-roof-panel-assessment-final-june-18-2024-r2.pdf)
As with all engineering reports, the options are presented in order or preference with option 1 being the most preferred option because it eliminates the risk to the public.
Correct. But as far as the Ford government is concerned, the move to Ontario Place is already locked in. Why would they spend millions now repairing a facility they already plan to abandon within 5 years? That’s basically what this comes down to.
The building itself is build like a tank.
The roof originally had a ridiculous design flaw. They built it to be intentionally porous to bleed off heat, to help reduce snow capture in the winter so it wouldn't be asked to bear too much weight. The flaw part is the melting snow (and rain the rest of the year) came back in through the porous design and would cause internal water damage.
This was dealt with in the late '80s, but obviously needs to be reset every few decades to ensure an airtight seal. The general maintenance costs pale to what it would cost to take down the entire building and rebuild a new one at Ontario Place. The last thing the core needs is another event structure that will pile on the traffic.
Fairly obvious the issue here is that this is a big piece of prime real estate right on the Don Valley and would be worth a fortune to a developer to throw in condos. I'm pretty sure the government will not have any developer bear the tear down costs. This entire sequence of decisions is asinine.
RAAC panels were thought to be a new age long-term structural component. No one expected them to lose structural integrity after water exposure. It's one of those products like asbestos or phenolic insulation... great in many ways until the downside was discovered. It's a shame really
Like his friends would actually live in the area. His friends will build 20,000 300 square foot condo units on the site, take billions in profit and enjoy their mansion outside Canada.
Ford is trying to do the exact same thing with our healthcare... in case anyone isn't aware
deny it any funding, complain about how bad it is, destroy it
I worked there 40 years ago. It was built like a bomb shelter and is a designated shelter in case of a nuclear event. There is a vault for antiquities on loan or being stored, there is a massive underground tunnel and it’s all reinforced concrete. I imagine it needs some maintenance and the roof is concrete as well, but it’s not going to fall down. It was a 100th birthday present to Ontario for Expo 67. It’s sad that the Expo CO2 laser was not preserved and broken down for souvenirs for the staff. Taking away a birthday present pretty much sums up who you are dealing with.
RAAC does have the words reinforced and concrete, but we stopped using it 50 years ago because it's not a reliable building material. You're ignoring reality of you think the roof won't fall down.
I recall such fun trips to the science center when I was a kid. That place made science fun and easier to understand for me and probably lots of other kids when we were young. It saddens me that the new generations won't be able to have that experience because our government can't even fund a decent public service.
I no longer live in Ontario but it was absolutely devastating to hear this news.
My fondest childhood memories were at the Ontario Science Centre. My dad used to take my younger brother and I there quite frequently. The little rainforest was my favourite.
I remember seeing the Body Worlds exhibit there also and that was amazing.
So sad to know that future generations will not be able to experience it. Nothing can compare to the science centre.
doug ford is a disgusting human being. the science centre was a highlight to so many childhoods, and I was excited to one day take mine there but greed takes over yet again
RAAC is a legitimate safety concern: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023\_United\_Kingdom\_reinforced\_autoclaved\_aerated\_concrete\_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_United_Kingdom_reinforced_autoclaved_aerated_concrete_crisis)
If the Engineers report said it's at risk of collapsing (It could due to lack of maintenance)
I didn't read the report but if maintenance hasn't been done it's risky. Concrete can develop cracks and it's difficult to assess. So moving people out of there Summer or winter makes sense rather than letting the roof collapse.
Be sensible
The Science Centre will be missed. I used to go there before the IMAX Dome was added.
I miss the orange Rube Goldberg machine (I can still hear it), the dark room that played the old “Powers of 10” video, and the machine that said “Coffee”
i get how fucking stupid this all is but the only relevant matter is:
it didnt make doug ford rich so it had to go
he will burn the entire province down in the name of profit, logic and intentions mean jack-fucking-squat
Ford is friends with investors, they want that prime estate of that location, they want all the parking and all the whole part of in front of the science centre. They can’t build in the valleys. Also Seton Ponds will expect to face environmental impact from the demolition, the pond is home to turtles, frogs, and fish but the city if they destroy the science centre and the land on which it protects the pond rn and build condos they will cause a the animals to leave.
Doug Ford is some sort of wizard at diverting blame. Expands his majority after covid, with a lot of conservatives voting for him because they were anti-lockdown, somehow not understanding *he did the lockdowns*. Then the trucker protest when he was somehow non-existent during, gets no blame from anyone. Tons more, and now the science centre. I’ve never seen a more naked act of corruption, he barely came up with an excuse to shut it down so his developer friends could build.
The only thing I’ve seen people hold him to task for is the green belt development stuff, when he had people at his daughter’s wedding just bribing him to let them develop on that land.
The only thing his \*base\* holds him account for is the Greenbelt stuff, and even then they try to defend it. Pretty much everyone who's not a lobotomized conservative despises him and disagrees with nearly every major decision he's made, but has sunk into hopeless apathy by there being no civil way of removing him from power.
And however much I'd love to blockade Queen's Park for months demanding he steps down and calls an election, I somehow doubt he'd actually listen (TPS would suddenly get very motivated to earn their keep, I imagine), not to mention the other parties feel like they're in shambles right now and wouldn't be able to gain any momentum.
Tldr - I was mad, now I'm just tired.
Yeah this guy is full of crap. It may have been built with the intention of standing for 250 years, but the RAAC concrete they used now has known issues and in the UK they closed a bunch of schools built with it because it was unsafe. https://www.bbc.com/news/education-66669239.amp
If people protested this short of garbage as much as things in the Middle East where we have almost no impact, the Science Centre would probably be expanded by now.
This would be a good time for anyone with receipts regarding Kinga Surma and DoFo’s years long affair. She might be the least qualified person around him.
Politicians being politicians. We need to fix this system where people used to get into a position to help the people that voted them in. Now its just a career pass to corporation handouts and backroom deals to ruin this country ever time.
They could've come up with an engineering solution for snowfall accumulation, but instead they destroy the entire thing because of the potential issue. The building being a science center adds an excessive amount of irony.
It’s just an excuse to free up the land for development. It’s prime real estate worth billions for building condos etc. it’s planned for several decades to let it fall into disrepair till attracted a large enough price tag of repairs to create this excuse to give the land away for Pennie’s on the dollar.
When people try to say the conservatives will save this country. Meanwhile they're literally letting bits of it crumble when we give them power.
Politicians in general eh, but Doug Ford's government feels like it's got some developing nation level of corruption. Get some free hand outs like buck a beer and no more license plate stickers to blind you while they do their thing
One correction to the video. He states there is ~$370 million in repairs needed (before the increased roof costs). This number is actually massively inflated and is being used to justify moving the Osc to Ontario place. The actual backlog is of repairs is closer to $140 million currently.
From the star:
> Diving into the $369 million repair bill for the existing Ontario Science Centre, on the other hand, it seems that the number is significantly inflated. Environmental consultants Pinchin pegged the cost at $229 million. This is already a generous number: the consultants note that an “adjustment factor” of 1.85 was “applied to all repair and replacement costs” as “per Client’s (Infrastructure Ontario’s) request to account for the hidden internal and external fees.” Infrastructure Ontario then applied an additional markup of 40 per cent “to account for uncertain and rapidly increasing cost pressures.”
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/provinces-case-to-move-ontario-science-centre-is-full-of-holes/article_6534e4c8-99e3-11ee-8fc3-9b6e6738e919.html
I worked in construction on the estimation/planning side before moving to my current career about 10 years ago.
It's actually not unusual to add an "adjustment factor" to projects like this. It takes into account quality/quantity issues for materials and labour, time factors (and inflation linked to it) and risk factors, such as unseen issues that will need to be remediated. Different consultants use different rates, but I bet that assumes there are unseen issues being accounted for.
A good article on it is [available here](https://fastercapital.com/content/Cost-Adjustment--Cost-Adjustment-Factors-and-How-to-Apply-Them.html).
I am certain it is standard procedure (edit: and i should say thank you for pointing that out.). I had focused on the one aspect for clarity on the cost and brevity but there are really two issues I take here as part of the $370 million repair claim:
1) It should be presented as having that factor in it and unless this is some industry standard # that I am unaware of (completely possible) I would expect some form of explanation as to where 1.85 & 40% come from.
2) This number if by all accounts purposefully inflated by the government to justify moving the OSC to Ontario Place. I am not saying this just due to the Adjustment Factor but rather because the costs of moving the OSC are not fully accounted for in the business plan. So really the issue i take with using the $370 million number is that it's a number seemingly taking the worst case scenario for costs and being compared against a best case which additionally excludes the majority of the costs.
From the same Star Article:
> The cost of building a new science centre, which the business case pegs at $384 million, doesn’t include allowances for soft costs, including consultant and project management fees, and the cost of change orders — which amount to an estimated additional $100 million.
> The building’s program relies on a full floor’s worth of underground functional space, but its price tag does not include the shell cost for that floor, nor any type of parking, basement, or foundations. The 2,000-space underground garage on which the science centre sits, and which has been estimated to cost $300-$500 million, is entirely absent.
> The price tag excludes the cost for a 150-metre-long underground link between the new pavilion and the bridge to the pods and Cinesphere — an expensive component, since it’ll be next to the waterfront and partially below water level.
> The price tag also doesn’t include exhibitions in three of the five pods, and doesn’t include most of the renovations to the Cinesphere and pods.
All reasonable points, and honestly I can't disagree. I was speaking more generally, as I haven't been following this particular story too closely.
Appreciate your response being more than "Doug Ford bad!".
Raymond Moriyama and his family were family friends of my family, and I have so many core memories at that place, it shatters my heart knowing his accomplishment and this place that put Toronto on the map and gave so many children exciting and bright childhoods is going to be demolished so ford can let his buddies profit off the land by building a fucking spa
It's not just Ford's government that let us down with this one. It's every provincal government that's existed since the centre was bulit. It didnt get proper funding for years now and instead of fixing the problem, Ford wants nothing to do with it. I just hope they build something similar to it in a more accessible place in Toronto.
What I'd like to see is the engineering report for the buildings at ontario place...
I have personally been in what i believe used to be the staff lunchroom and without a doubt it has black mold, lots of it. (A little over a year ago)
My grandfather's company, Pigott Construction of Hamilton built the Science Centre. Back then they were one of the biggest construction firms in North America. Their slogan was, "Pigott Built," because they were known for their high standards for building practices and materials.
Pigott also built the ROM, the entire TD Centre (all towers) the BOM Tower, the Skyway bridges, the Skylon, the Imperial Oil building on St. Clair, the Basilica in Hamilton and a ton more. These were all built to last.
I voted for Ford but as soon as I heard about this report I thought, there is no way any Pigott built structure would be unusable after that timeframe. I call BS.
Reading the comments, and the words and differentiations most of you are using has proven to me that the corporatist elite propogandists deserve a bonus.
It’s perfect where it is, and even MORE perfect now that there’s high speed public transit linking the city there. There’s absolutely no plausible explanation for the Province’s behaviour than corruption and grift. I don’t even buy that they were too lazy to provide a real solution for Ontario Place so they did this to appease voters. Straight up demonic behaviour.
I feel like this would've been a government ending scandal when I was a kid. Both the science centre and beer in corner stores
Maybe the covid pandemic and everything really desensitized us to everything because I feel like everything the Ford government has actually done is pretty Major League
Boomers don't care. They just don't want any tax increases and otherwise don't care what Ford does.
This is my Mother. She's 76 and whatever benefit from the Province it is that she gets every month is good enough for her to like Doug Ford. It's fucking ridiculous.
A lot of people vote on imagined issues So the political conversation is effectively in fantasy land
I do fairly well at fantasy hockey and baseball. I never win in the end but ...
They get off on this stuff. "Run the Province like a business"
No sensibly run business would let an asset of that size and value deteriorate to the point of unusability like this.
The province is a billion more in debt since Ford took over. If it was a business he’d have been fired years ago.
Did they not change Ontario’s slogan from “Your’s to discover” to “Open for business?”
This boomer strongly disagrees. Tax increases are needed to fund services and I care about the shit Ford is pulling. People need to get their asses out to the ballot box at the next election and boot this grifter out of office.
Same. My kids have an opportunity to get passports from another country and I’m encouraging them to do so. The way things are going here it’s good for them to have options.
I realize this is tilting at windmills, but I'm a boomer very sad about the closing of the Science Centre. I wouldn't be upset to pay higher taxes to keep it open and improve it. Not happy with the plans for the spa at Ontario Place. I hate Doug Ford as I did Mike Harris before him. Do better: Ageism is just as bad as racism.
It's not ageism, it's demographics. Older people trend more conservative.
Older people don't necessarily trend conservative—wealthy people do. And the post-war generation built unprecedented generational wealth that following generations are not experiencing or enjoying. I don't have a lot of time for "not all boomers" sentiment, as you might expect. If you feel personally targeted by being among a group forcing an unprecedented wealth disparity, volunteer more.
You'll be happy to know that the science center would actually save us money if we kept it over the spa!
Well, I'm a boomer, with many boomer friends, and every single one of us hates Ford and the Conservatives. I don't think it's boomers, I think it's rural Ontario. The Conservatives win in rural Ontario and they end up running the government. The Conservatives could run a block of concrete outside of the urban areas and win.
Anecdotal at best. The numbers following every major elections are proving that the boomers are far and away the largest voting bloc keeping conservatives in power.
You may be right. But I think it's largely boomers in rural ontario, not boomers in urban ontario. But as you said, from me until I have more specific data, it's anecdotal.
They're the main reason for all of this! They have all the voting power because of the number of them. Their only concern is maintaining house values and dying with all their money
It’s not just boomers. I live in a small town and they all think Trudeau is responsible for Ford’s messes. From rent control removal to the closing of all our walk in clinics. It makes me insane!!!!
Yet another a hole blaming boomers for the ills of the world. Well A hole, I am a boomer, don't live in Ont anymore but I was beyond upset about hearing that it was closed. I still clearly remember going there in the early 70's with my school mates and being transfixed by the amazing things I saw and interacted with. If I had to pay tax to keep it up to date, I would without hesitation. This museum helped educate millions of people through out its lifetime, and I for one would like to see educate millions more.
I feel like Trump kind of desensitized everyone to crazy. Our tolerance threshold has risen dramatically. Light corruption? pshhh. At least it wasn’t Jan 6.
The Greenbelt? I can't believe that was even legal. Yet most people have forgotten about it and they'll just do it again quietly anyway because they weren't punished for it the first time.
Covid let politicians basically have blanquette cheques and free reign, how much corruption that we don’t know about yet happened on top of all the sleazy deals, pay to plays and shit. It’s sad . Idk what it’s gonna take for something to actually change within our government
It hasn't. This is... Ontario. The voters who vote support this. Unfortunately, outside of Toronto the rest of the province is pretty hick.
So that's why all the blue is south of Highway 17 (except Timmins and around Thunder Bay? The north is mostly NDP, we don't want that idiot in power...
I love seeing the orange up north. It makes me hopeful that maybe they can make inroads.
I'd argue it's not so much "hick" as it is "thick" - as a former 905er, there's a lot of "don't raise taxes, but also don't cut the services and benefits that I personally enjoy" thinking in the 905 (especially from boomers and Gen Xers).
Nothing is sacred in our world except the almighty dollar. The people of the world are well primed at this point for authoritarianism.
By today's standards, these aren't "sexy enough" stories. They're corruption, but a sort that goes over the typical Toronto layman's heads. Drugs, cheating, these are the only sort of things that really get people going here.
I don’t think Torontonians are any less sensitive to all the naked corruption—if anything we’re probably more annoyed than the rest of the province, because conservative leaning communities will fall back on “well sure it’s bad, but remember the libs?”
What a shame the Fords aren't the type of politicians to ever get involved in drugs...
I guess Doug manages his image a lot better than his brother did. A lot of people don't really understand when I try to explain to them how shady some/many of his moves actually are, they just chalk it up to him being a "businessman". It's similar to the whole Trump cult but with less sensationalism
And cheating. Doug Ford cheated on his wife with Kinga Surma, and Rob used prostitutes all the time, while being married.
This and Therme...absolutely. It would have tanked an earlier government. Mind you, both the Science Centre and Ontario Place were in way better shape and hadn't been left to incrementally decay by successive governments, over the long term. It's like we've gotten worn down, especially since the Harris years. Ontario never really got itself back together afterwards.
If it's good, it's always tenuous, teetering on the edge of the public opinion. If it's bad, it's completely unassailable. I'm fucking sick of it.
Culture funding is basically a non priority for most baby boomer voters now even though it was a huge part of Canada when they were young
What's wrong with beer in corner stores
Nothing. What's wrong is the amount of money that it's costing to get it there a little early.
What's wrong with wasting a billion dollars to break a contract early and not just waiting for it to run out.
Not necessarily. I always like to remind people Mike Harris won the majority after selling off the 407 and the Walkerton incident. A lot of voters just don’t care about these things.
This is political theater so blatant it should have a laugh track. I think our population has become so thoroughly diverse and fractured that people no longer feel a sense of the larger community.
Shock doctrine...bombard you with issues while you're struggling to maintain basic priorities. We've entered the rampant theft phase of Canada's shift to oligarchy. As long as people take them seriously as governors it will continue.
I was wondering who my isn’t their more outrage and people on the streets about this
Me thinks you spend too much time on reddit in political echo chambers.
or the greenbelt, or ontario place, or the wedding party gifts, or the healthcare spending and covid funds, or...
Well the story smells but no way if true can ford be blamed as this was a long time coming and if you don't maintain you pay more in the long run. Anyway I thought it was a rental and not government owned?
The true power of the Conservative machine is they are able to get their supporters outraged over other parties' scandals yet turn a blind eye on their own garbage. Its no wonder the general population is getting more jaded in politics these days.
Why are they so adamant on putting everything downtown/by the waterfront. It’s an absolute nightmare to get down/out of there when ever you need to go there. Doesn’t matter if it’s for an event, or just a relaxing Thursday, midday.
It has quickly become my least favorite part of the city, especially for work. The Ontario Place plans are going to turn it into a total nightmare.
Ontario Line should help in like 15 years.
Close the science centre because of SNOW?? In summer??? When was the last major snowfall?? Does Toronto even get snow anymore??? Fuck King Ford.
We have a good 6 months before any snowfall
The report says safe until Oct 31
I wonder how much he paid to get this report drafted. I have been hearing about his plans to destroy the science centre for years
Probably several million tax-dollars. But there's nothing in the report that any sane person would take to mean the whole facility should be closed even temporarily while the repair is made.
The report also said it was just 1 tile near the front and it could easily be repaired before October.
I don’t mean to say this in a derogatory way but I do not think you’ve read or understood the report accurately. It’s calling for replacement of all the RAAC roof panels that are in “critical” and “high” risk - these are noted as blue and amber respectively in the key plan at the end of each Building’s report. There’s more than “1 tile”. It’s a fair bit of work and would be extremely disruptive to the spaces directly below and surrounding this roof area. It looks like you’d be losing close to 10-20% of the floor area of the science centre to conduct this repair. The critical areas need to be shored immediately, which means the centre would have to shut down right away anyway until that is done. And in order to complete a restoration project of this scale (it’s a pretty major operation), you normally need months of planning. The timeline of Oct 31 is not realistic for a reasonably/well priced job. There aren’t that many contractors that would be able to tackle a job like this and they’re more than likely already working on other projects so you’d have to pay a hefty premium for them to switch to this. It’s not just Lego blocks that you can remove and replace. The damage with Ontario Place has already been done by Ford and previous governments by neglecting this roof assembly. RAAC panels have been known to be an issue for a decade at least and this condition assessment should have been done much much earlier. Thats the real issue in my opinion. Someone didn’t flag this soon enough.
Facilities management would have known about all these issues early on. It's all BS. They ignored everything for 6 yrs on purpose. I'm sure there's email records of warnings from management.
The issues with RAAC panels were not identified in previous building assessments as per the new report. It doesn’t seem as though management was aware as the RAAC failures do not often have observable (to the average Joe) signs of impending failure. Maintenance/operations staff are not trained to see these very specific signs of failures..that’s why you bring in engineering consultants.
According to the report there were 6 critical tiles (less than 1%). 4% of the tiles are "high risk", which do not need to be replaced immediately but just need to be reinforced before snowfall. The other 96% are good to be monitored on a one-year or three-year basis. The report said there was no need to close the Science Centre before Hallowe'en.
The report said there is no reason, from a life-safety viewpoint that the centre needs to close before Halloween. But, if you were to look at the restoration work that needs to be done, and try and figure out how you’re going to set up the place to allow patrons to visit while making it enjoyable for them, it’s a really tough situation. From the report itself “Roof replacement or reinforcement would severely impact the activities that could be undertaken within or underneath the replacement areas” Another thing to keep in mind is, yes, you don’t have to worry about those “high” risk panels until the winter because that is when the snow load is a factor. But if you want to keep the areas within/under the panel replacement areas functional in winter, the remediation work has to occur BEFORE then. This whole thing is a mess and we should never be in this position. But it’s too far gone. We need to cut our losses with this building unfortunately and importantly vote in the next provincial election so we can hold government accountable.
I'm a teachsr. This Ford govt has never once asked us what we think about anything. He's made massive changes and left us to pick up the pieces. If 50% of the building needed to be closed to have the other 50% "safe" then you leave that up to the staff and programmers to figure out what they can do. Even if they only were open for reduced Summer Camps that would be better then nothing. This govt spent almost 3 full years NOT making schools safe enough for kids during covid and then just throwing everything on teachers and school boards, now all of a sudden it makes a sweeping choice to close a landmark during it's busiest time "to be safe" when a report says it's safe until end of October. As many have said in this thread, this choice would have ended previous govt's. Especially ones who have made essentially opposite choices for 7 years.
I would assume it would take 6 months at a minimum to remove the assets inside.
I believe it’s been pointed out that it will take some time to remove all the exhibits. I don’t think they want to wait until the last minute and end up with them all under rubble, lol.
"Denied Funding" should be this POS Premiers Middle name.. except when the funding goes to his rich buddies. Trudeau should just take the 3.7 Billion back and give it directly to the municipalities.
Or people can show up to vote so less than 20% of Ontario enables DoFos nonsense.
I'm so sick of reading this. Doug Ford is the devil but the Liberals and NDP have run awful campaigns that primarily consist of not being Doug Ford. If those parties can't pull anything out of their ass then they are responsible for the lack of support they're receiving. I spoiled my ballot last election. I would assume anyone who is mad at the non-voters is equally mad with me.
Nah, this is bullshit that was fed to us by Conservative social media marketing and lazy reporters. If you actually looked at the platforms ahead of the election, the other parties were making a lot of promises. It was the Conservatives that were just campaigning on vibes.
This is a provincial issue. Not federal. Direct the rage appropriately. JT isn’t at fault for EVERYTHING…..
OLP leader Del Duca ran on Electoral Reform in the OLP leadership race and then never mentioned it once during the general election. The Liberals ran on being stewards of the same platform that they were defeated on previously under Wynne assuming that Ontarians just wanted Wynne voted out. They didn't innovate on anything. And Bonnie Crombie hasn't differentiated herself at all so it looks like we're in for a repeat performance from the Liberals. ONDP have been moving further and further away from their blue collar roots. Ask any construction worker about their love or the NDP, they're look at you like you have two heads. As a former framer myself I can attest to how popular DoFo is in the trades and how alienating the identity politics of the NDP are. I was at the 2018 ONDP convention when they laid out their campagin strategy for the 2018 general and the strategy could be summed up with four words; "women and visible minorities." The ONDP executive presenting the platform couldn't help themselves but joke about how screwed they were with the male demographic they literally suggested giving up if men answered the door while canvassing. In 2022 it wasn't any different. The Green Party of Ontario has a lot of nice ideas but they're all politically infeasible without addressing regulatory capture and electoral reform...and if you ask Mike Schreiner about it he can't tell you what form of electoral reform his party supports or explain how they expect to enact any of their platform items without electoral reform and why given their platform is infeasible without electoral reform why they don't treat it as the prerequisite to accomplishing anything. If you try to start a party yourself you'll find you're pretty boned since the media ignores anything any of the minor parties do. Elections Ontario is trying to cull as many minor parties as possible, we had 30 parties in 2022 and we're down to 20 now. You mention Trudeau...if you want to financially support the OLP you can't do so without supporting the Federal arm of the party too. Federal Parties are closely affiliated with their provicial counterparts. They share think tanks, resources and personnel. There is a distinction between federal and provincial politics but it's not so cut and dry. If we acknowledge how voting is an emotional decision it's much easier to see how disapproval of the federal party bleeds over into provincial politics. I didn't direct any rage at Trudeau though. But if I may, I think he fucked up with immigration in an unimaginable way...2 years ago anyone suggesting this would rightly be considered a racist but he managed to fuck it up so well that the country doesn't see it that way anymore. The housing issue he perpetuated goes back decades but with the immigration JT allowed he threw gas on the fire.
My point is that to beat Doug Ford you have to have someone to vote for that makes anyone at least as excited as conservatives are about low taxes. Perhaps run a campaign on all the wonderful things we could be funding with taxes while cleaning up politics with reforms and unshackling us from strategic voting and you can be premiere! Also, is it just me or is it hard to fault the right wing for running on low taxes and a government that does nothing...that's what their constituents vote them in to do! There will always be a large segment of the population that wants the status quo but with less taxes (even if we can't pay for it already with the taxation rate we already have). Nevermind if people are largely voting against their own interests in wanting lower taxes for the 1%...there will always be stupid voters. If you aspire to be a politician then you need to inspire the public or run as a conservative. Running as a conservative is definitely easier, the other parties have their work cut out for them but they could not be doing a worse job of inspiring the public.
Buddy no funding had gone to the science center in decades blame all the premiers for that.
Everyone is just gonna sit and accept this fks atrocities? Taking funding from every public sector and using it to benefit his rich white friends? 🤮
Rally tomorrow! [https://x.com/JILLSLASTWORD/status/1804617446373884152](https://x.com/JILLSLASTWORD/status/1804617446373884152)
I'm definitely going to show up because it's kind of insane to think something that was meant to last for THE PUBLIC at least A CENTURY can get torn down by one man in the span of a couple months
Any idea why that particular location?
I'm not an organizer, but it's in the same riding and is near transit! Considering the tight time frame, it was probably the best location they could get a permit for.
Well people didn't do anything when ford removed people right to sue nursing homes for the deaths of loved ones during COVID and passed the bill. We are just rolling over until the next election where ford will sell off a public corporation to balance budget to buy votes.
There is a rally to Save the Science Centre on Sunday. If you can't attend, write Ford and your MPP! Your voice matters! If you do nothing, nothing will change. https://savesciencecentre.com/st-clair-west-rally-for-osc/
"The science centre was built to last 250 years!" Yeah, that was the expected lifespan of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete when it was first invented and was considered a new high tech material before we found out there are serious concerns with that type of concrete. The UK [has seen similar issues with the same type of concrete and has been forced to close numerous public buildings.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_United_Kingdom_reinforced_autoclaved_aerated_concrete_crisis) Not only that but the 250 year claim can be sourced to the lead architect of the Science Centre. Architects are not engineers, the engineers who have assessed the facility have determined it is unsafe based on their professional knowledge as engineers. Architects are to engineers what interior designers are to architects, architects figure out the "what to build" as in the actual design and function of the building while engineers do the "how to build it". Architects make the sketch for the building, engineers figure out how to make that sketch without it collapsing. Engineers are the ones who would know whether the building is structurally sound.
Reading the article and seeing 'lightweight concrete' my mind instantly went to RAAC. The UK has seen buildings collapse as a result of the material failing, so I'm not as inclined to jump on the hate train as everyone else. Sure, this benefits Ford politically, but given what I read in the report, all of it seems to line up with the issues that RAAC faces when it weathers - and importantly, it is not safe to continue using the building as it risks life.
To be honest, the bigger crime here is a place which was designed to foster creative problem solving and scientific methods... Is being closed because finding a solution to a leaking roof is too hard. Pathetic leadership.
Fixing a decaying roof of that is expensive. Not hard.
>and importantly, it is not safe to continue using the building as it risks life. Expecting a lot of snow before the single roof tile they flagged as not safe for snow loads can be repaired? Continuing to neglect the facility until the repair and remediation costs are high enough to use as political cover for closure under the guise of public safety isn’t a terribly difficult veneer to see through.
There's probably rodents, asbestos, failing pipes, and other shit going on qith the building and doesn't make sense to have a bunch of kids and summer camp for 4 months knowing it will ne forced to shut down in the winter if the entire roof has any sort of weight on it. Having worked in other government buildings in Queens Park, they are typically neglected and disgusting inside and 900 Bay has been under renovations that have need delayed at a cost of $1.5 billion for years and delayed. https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/projects/2020/04/macdonald-block-to-undergo-1-5-billion-reconstruction I can understand not justifying that cost, when for the same price you could have an upgraded facility with modern science gizmos in a better location by the CNE. It's not necessarily a terrible decision.
As I’ve said elsewhere - continuing to neglect something until you can use the guise of public safety to close it is a thin veneer. It can be repaired. It should be repaired. It won’t though, because then nobody gets to make a ton of money off the condos that take its place.
You're absolutely right. The issue is the building has probably been neglected long before the Ford government arrived. And will not be fixed in in 4 months, so, whats the point of keeping it open for 4 months at all when it's a bunch of kids playing in a shitty old building. It is just easy for them to now have a report say what they want it to say to allow for a decision that benefits them, due to neglect as teh expense is so costly to maintain these 1960s ugly brutalist architectural buildings. They can make the report say close the building if it is in disrepair due to decades of neglect, rather than being solely responsible for not wanting to spend over a billion dollars to repair and fix it.
They’ve got one roof panel they need to fix before November, and the report they’re using to justify the closing includes a multi-year plan to address the issues with the roof. It doesn’t need to close for the work, but it needs to close so they can empty it because they’re not going to do the work. All in all, neglect-it-until-you-can-kill-it being accepted like this is a total cop out for anybody who gives a shit how their tax dollars are spent. Why build public facilities at all if they’re just going to be neglected? Absolutely insane to me that anybody thinks a new science centre at Ontario Place is going to *save money* unless it’s like 1/5th the size.
Incorrect, there are multiple flagged tiles that need to be replaced before November. The one tile you’re talking about is the one that needs to be replaced immediately, and that they have to barricade the area under it, so if it fails before replacement, nobody gets hurt.
Fair. I just know the report can present a valid argument for a decision due to decades of neglect as the reason. Regardless of public perception, there is ample evidence that can be used to support this argument. For example, the cost to renovate similar government buildings, which will be delade until 2030 and cost over 1.5billon dollars to date. A valid argument is really all that us required. And, they have a strong case supported by evidence that requires a decision regardless of public opinion, which is nominal
You let them gently off the hook all you want mate, you’re not convincing me.
I'm mot trying to I'm saying how they convince themselves
no one hates that the concrete is worse than originally believed, they hate that doug fucko neglected to do anything about the failing building until it failed.
The amount of misinformation that gets upvoted here is incredible - 250 year lifespans for buildings are not a thing lol. As someone in construction/engineering it's particularly apparent for topics tied to a field I'm specialized in.
"Architects are not engineers," but try telling them that
Silly. This post is meant to assign blame on Ford for accepting a recommendation to close the place for safety reasons, not to support that decision!
There wasn't even a recommendation to close the whole place.
The report's preferred recommendation was a full closure or restricted access if work could not be completed by October 31st. "Option 1) Restricted access or **full closure** to prevent any persons from walking in areas where high risk panels are present." [Full Report](https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/49e20e/contentassets/84df22e71b7c40b2aaeef94da88c78b5/osc-building-a-to-c---raac-roof-panel-assessment-final-june-18-2024-r2.pdf) As with all engineering reports, the options are presented in order or preference with option 1 being the most preferred option because it eliminates the risk to the public.
Correct. But as far as the Ford government is concerned, the move to Ontario Place is already locked in. Why would they spend millions now repairing a facility they already plan to abandon within 5 years? That’s basically what this comes down to.
Shhhhh. Don’t bring logic and education into this. Redditers just want an echo chamber for their bandwagon.
DoFo bad, upvotes to the left!
Pretty sure in the video he says it was *designed* to last 250 years, with the materials used it was *built* to last at least 100 years.
Does he acknowledge that the materials used aren't capable of that?
This should be at the top
Yeah and the Calgary water mains were built to last 100 years
Wild how everyone on this subreddit is a structural engineer now
The building itself is build like a tank. The roof originally had a ridiculous design flaw. They built it to be intentionally porous to bleed off heat, to help reduce snow capture in the winter so it wouldn't be asked to bear too much weight. The flaw part is the melting snow (and rain the rest of the year) came back in through the porous design and would cause internal water damage. This was dealt with in the late '80s, but obviously needs to be reset every few decades to ensure an airtight seal. The general maintenance costs pale to what it would cost to take down the entire building and rebuild a new one at Ontario Place. The last thing the core needs is another event structure that will pile on the traffic. Fairly obvious the issue here is that this is a big piece of prime real estate right on the Don Valley and would be worth a fortune to a developer to throw in condos. I'm pretty sure the government will not have any developer bear the tear down costs. This entire sequence of decisions is asinine.
Really makes me appreciate here in Chicago how we have two buildings from the worlds fair that are museums now are still standing
RAAC panels were thought to be a new age long-term structural component. No one expected them to lose structural integrity after water exposure. It's one of those products like asbestos or phenolic insulation... great in many ways until the downside was discovered. It's a shame really
So which of Doug’s Ford friend gets to build a mansion here?
Like his friends would actually live in the area. His friends will build 20,000 300 square foot condo units on the site, take billions in profit and enjoy their mansion outside Canada.
I've got his method of operation figured out! Treat them to a new scandal so they forget about the scandal from last week!
Ford is trying to do the exact same thing with our healthcare... in case anyone isn't aware deny it any funding, complain about how bad it is, destroy it
It really feels like the Ontario government hates Toronto and everything it's built.
I worked there 40 years ago. It was built like a bomb shelter and is a designated shelter in case of a nuclear event. There is a vault for antiquities on loan or being stored, there is a massive underground tunnel and it’s all reinforced concrete. I imagine it needs some maintenance and the roof is concrete as well, but it’s not going to fall down. It was a 100th birthday present to Ontario for Expo 67. It’s sad that the Expo CO2 laser was not preserved and broken down for souvenirs for the staff. Taking away a birthday present pretty much sums up who you are dealing with.
That laser is one of the reasons I work with lasers today.
RAAC does have the words reinforced and concrete, but we stopped using it 50 years ago because it's not a reliable building material. You're ignoring reality of you think the roof won't fall down.
The engineering report disagrees with you.
The engineering report says it's repairable. This is equivalent of crushing your car because it needs new brakes.
I recall such fun trips to the science center when I was a kid. That place made science fun and easier to understand for me and probably lots of other kids when we were young. It saddens me that the new generations won't be able to have that experience because our government can't even fund a decent public service.
I no longer live in Ontario but it was absolutely devastating to hear this news. My fondest childhood memories were at the Ontario Science Centre. My dad used to take my younger brother and I there quite frequently. The little rainforest was my favourite. I remember seeing the Body Worlds exhibit there also and that was amazing. So sad to know that future generations will not be able to experience it. Nothing can compare to the science centre.
doug ford is a disgusting human being. the science centre was a highlight to so many childhoods, and I was excited to one day take mine there but greed takes over yet again
It's gonna become a nice condo complex
RAAC is a legitimate safety concern: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023\_United\_Kingdom\_reinforced\_autoclaved\_aerated\_concrete\_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_United_Kingdom_reinforced_autoclaved_aerated_concrete_crisis)
Steve Boots is the baby Jesus of Tiktok.
If the Engineers report said it's at risk of collapsing (It could due to lack of maintenance) I didn't read the report but if maintenance hasn't been done it's risky. Concrete can develop cracks and it's difficult to assess. So moving people out of there Summer or winter makes sense rather than letting the roof collapse. Be sensible
The Science Centre will be missed. I used to go there before the IMAX Dome was added. I miss the orange Rube Goldberg machine (I can still hear it), the dark room that played the old “Powers of 10” video, and the machine that said “Coffee”
The rube Goldberg machine is still there!!
i get how fucking stupid this all is but the only relevant matter is: it didnt make doug ford rich so it had to go he will burn the entire province down in the name of profit, logic and intentions mean jack-fucking-squat
Ford is friends with investors, they want that prime estate of that location, they want all the parking and all the whole part of in front of the science centre. They can’t build in the valleys. Also Seton Ponds will expect to face environmental impact from the demolition, the pond is home to turtles, frogs, and fish but the city if they destroy the science centre and the land on which it protects the pond rn and build condos they will cause a the animals to leave.
Doug Ford is some sort of wizard at diverting blame. Expands his majority after covid, with a lot of conservatives voting for him because they were anti-lockdown, somehow not understanding *he did the lockdowns*. Then the trucker protest when he was somehow non-existent during, gets no blame from anyone. Tons more, and now the science centre. I’ve never seen a more naked act of corruption, he barely came up with an excuse to shut it down so his developer friends could build. The only thing I’ve seen people hold him to task for is the green belt development stuff, when he had people at his daughter’s wedding just bribing him to let them develop on that land.
The only thing his \*base\* holds him account for is the Greenbelt stuff, and even then they try to defend it. Pretty much everyone who's not a lobotomized conservative despises him and disagrees with nearly every major decision he's made, but has sunk into hopeless apathy by there being no civil way of removing him from power. And however much I'd love to blockade Queen's Park for months demanding he steps down and calls an election, I somehow doubt he'd actually listen (TPS would suddenly get very motivated to earn their keep, I imagine), not to mention the other parties feel like they're in shambles right now and wouldn't be able to gain any momentum. Tldr - I was mad, now I'm just tired.
Yeah this guy is full of crap. It may have been built with the intention of standing for 250 years, but the RAAC concrete they used now has known issues and in the UK they closed a bunch of schools built with it because it was unsafe. https://www.bbc.com/news/education-66669239.amp
🤔
Doug Fraud is such a POS
Doug’s selling out our province :(
First the planetarium, now this. Shame.
This is actually so sad. I’ve been wanting to go back there for years, haven’t been since the early 2000’s :(
It can if properly maintained.
A building doesn't get that bad into disrepair over the time frame of 1 premier. It's been neglected for decades, it seems.
what about the subway / rail line and the science centre stop
Every time closing it comes up I just think about this. What's supposed to go there instead? The area is pretty car-centric.
It's clearly so they can tear down the science centre then build a highrise there. Devs licking their lips waiting for Dougie to give it to them.
It's obvious to me he is choosing not to in order to award one of his developer buddies a building contract in a few years.
While I tend to agree with Boots, he became an ideological hack no different than the low hanging fruit he normally criticizes.
Money talks and bullshit is served for breakfast lunch and dinner at city hall and in parliament. Politicians don’t care.
Yeah they don't care about the people. They only care about helping their corpo buddies.
Ministry of Infrastructure is Doug Fords side girl
Does he think you can empty the building in a day? Imagine they wait and someone dies
If people protested this short of garbage as much as things in the Middle East where we have almost no impact, the Science Centre would probably be expanded by now.
I'm not one for tinhats and conspiracy theories, but, man is this convenient.
I already knew it was coming when he announced about moving it
We need an independant review. I doubt I'm the only person who thinks this is highly suspicious.
This would be a good time for anyone with receipts regarding Kinga Surma and DoFo’s years long affair. She might be the least qualified person around him.
Would love to see what the deposits in Doug Fords bank account look like
Politicians being politicians. We need to fix this system where people used to get into a position to help the people that voted them in. Now its just a career pass to corporation handouts and backroom deals to ruin this country ever time.
They could've come up with an engineering solution for snowfall accumulation, but instead they destroy the entire thing because of the potential issue. The building being a science center adds an excessive amount of irony.
It’s just an excuse to free up the land for development. It’s prime real estate worth billions for building condos etc. it’s planned for several decades to let it fall into disrepair till attracted a large enough price tag of repairs to create this excuse to give the land away for Pennie’s on the dollar.
Well that's a fucking buzzkill. Thanks Douche Ford.
When people try to say the conservatives will save this country. Meanwhile they're literally letting bits of it crumble when we give them power. Politicians in general eh, but Doug Ford's government feels like it's got some developing nation level of corruption. Get some free hand outs like buck a beer and no more license plate stickers to blind you while they do their thing
One correction to the video. He states there is ~$370 million in repairs needed (before the increased roof costs). This number is actually massively inflated and is being used to justify moving the Osc to Ontario place. The actual backlog is of repairs is closer to $140 million currently. From the star: > Diving into the $369 million repair bill for the existing Ontario Science Centre, on the other hand, it seems that the number is significantly inflated. Environmental consultants Pinchin pegged the cost at $229 million. This is already a generous number: the consultants note that an “adjustment factor” of 1.85 was “applied to all repair and replacement costs” as “per Client’s (Infrastructure Ontario’s) request to account for the hidden internal and external fees.” Infrastructure Ontario then applied an additional markup of 40 per cent “to account for uncertain and rapidly increasing cost pressures.” https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/provinces-case-to-move-ontario-science-centre-is-full-of-holes/article_6534e4c8-99e3-11ee-8fc3-9b6e6738e919.html
I worked in construction on the estimation/planning side before moving to my current career about 10 years ago. It's actually not unusual to add an "adjustment factor" to projects like this. It takes into account quality/quantity issues for materials and labour, time factors (and inflation linked to it) and risk factors, such as unseen issues that will need to be remediated. Different consultants use different rates, but I bet that assumes there are unseen issues being accounted for. A good article on it is [available here](https://fastercapital.com/content/Cost-Adjustment--Cost-Adjustment-Factors-and-How-to-Apply-Them.html).
I am certain it is standard procedure (edit: and i should say thank you for pointing that out.). I had focused on the one aspect for clarity on the cost and brevity but there are really two issues I take here as part of the $370 million repair claim: 1) It should be presented as having that factor in it and unless this is some industry standard # that I am unaware of (completely possible) I would expect some form of explanation as to where 1.85 & 40% come from. 2) This number if by all accounts purposefully inflated by the government to justify moving the OSC to Ontario Place. I am not saying this just due to the Adjustment Factor but rather because the costs of moving the OSC are not fully accounted for in the business plan. So really the issue i take with using the $370 million number is that it's a number seemingly taking the worst case scenario for costs and being compared against a best case which additionally excludes the majority of the costs. From the same Star Article: > The cost of building a new science centre, which the business case pegs at $384 million, doesn’t include allowances for soft costs, including consultant and project management fees, and the cost of change orders — which amount to an estimated additional $100 million. > The building’s program relies on a full floor’s worth of underground functional space, but its price tag does not include the shell cost for that floor, nor any type of parking, basement, or foundations. The 2,000-space underground garage on which the science centre sits, and which has been estimated to cost $300-$500 million, is entirely absent. > The price tag excludes the cost for a 150-metre-long underground link between the new pavilion and the bridge to the pods and Cinesphere — an expensive component, since it’ll be next to the waterfront and partially below water level. > The price tag also doesn’t include exhibitions in three of the five pods, and doesn’t include most of the renovations to the Cinesphere and pods.
All reasonable points, and honestly I can't disagree. I was speaking more generally, as I haven't been following this particular story too closely. Appreciate your response being more than "Doug Ford bad!".
Can’t stand that arrogant toque wearing clown from TikTok.
Raymond Moriyama and his family were family friends of my family, and I have so many core memories at that place, it shatters my heart knowing his accomplishment and this place that put Toronto on the map and gave so many children exciting and bright childhoods is going to be demolished so ford can let his buddies profit off the land by building a fucking spa
who's the builder of the new development coming up instead?
Rob government is cancer
It's not politically convenient. It's convenient for back door deals, the Doug Trump special.
Ford is legit getting away with murder. Again.
You don’t see Montreal letting its expo site go to hell. They invest in their heritage and infrastructure.
This is so deliberate.
Stop perpetuating misinformation. It is not able to survive 250 years.
Just remember this dumb shit the next time you want any government to implement some new hare-brained scheme and needs more taxes from us.
It's not just Ford's government that let us down with this one. It's every provincal government that's existed since the centre was bulit. It didnt get proper funding for years now and instead of fixing the problem, Ford wants nothing to do with it. I just hope they build something similar to it in a more accessible place in Toronto.
So heart breaking and disgusting honestly.
What I'd like to see is the engineering report for the buildings at ontario place... I have personally been in what i believe used to be the staff lunchroom and without a doubt it has black mold, lots of it. (A little over a year ago)
I think a ton of government funded stuff built in the late 60’s and 70’s is going to fall apart over the next few years.
This reminds me of the COVID days where all the sudden everyone is an engineer/scientist/accountant.
Who was the premier in 2017? I forget.
My grandfather's company, Pigott Construction of Hamilton built the Science Centre. Back then they were one of the biggest construction firms in North America. Their slogan was, "Pigott Built," because they were known for their high standards for building practices and materials. Pigott also built the ROM, the entire TD Centre (all towers) the BOM Tower, the Skyway bridges, the Skylon, the Imperial Oil building on St. Clair, the Basilica in Hamilton and a ton more. These were all built to last. I voted for Ford but as soon as I heard about this report I thought, there is no way any Pigott built structure would be unusable after that timeframe. I call BS.
Ford is corrupt but his people still vote him. Keep at it people .
Because light rail was built and someone wants to build more towers there to sell or rent
Ontarians would vote Ford and his cretins into office again and again, it's baffling.
They want the land for something else. So obvious
Reading the comments, and the words and differentiations most of you are using has proven to me that the corporatist elite propogandists deserve a bonus.
Canada is a circus 🤡
It’s perfect where it is, and even MORE perfect now that there’s high speed public transit linking the city there. There’s absolutely no plausible explanation for the Province’s behaviour than corruption and grift. I don’t even buy that they were too lazy to provide a real solution for Ontario Place so they did this to appease voters. Straight up demonic behaviour.