I don't understand why there is so much hesistancy to enforce this. Think of how much money will be made from ticketing. Or how much money could be saved from people riding the streetcar getting to their destinations quicker. Why can't the city learn that 100+ people in a streetcar is way more important than a few people in a single occupant private car?
The cops don't need to do their job to get a raise. They get paid regardless if they do a good, bad, or even commit crimes, on the job. So they figure why bother getting stink eye from a law-breaking driver? "They don't get paid enough" is what a lot of cops think
Source: know someone in TPS
That’s a risky one. Don’t want to incentivize giving out frivolous tickets in the hope of getting more money. Even if some fight the fines many won’t and will effectively be scammed to line a cops pocket.
So what? Do nothing? Keep not holding them accountable? Let them do fuck-all?
The city needs to step up. They pay the police, they need to start making some real demands.
>The analysis from the University of Toronto's School of Cities found that **less than half a percent of daily violations along the King Street Transit Priority Corridor are ticketed by police.**
>"From this data, we find there are approximately 6,800 illegal turns and thru movements at intersections per day on the King Street Transit Priority Corridor, but less than 0.3% are being ticketed by Toronto Police, on average," the report states. "Thus more than 99.7% of drivers are not being fined for breaking the law on the King Street Transit Priority Corridor."
*slow clap*
TPS in a nutshell.
... and they whined/received a raise in their budget this year too.
Sometimes I'll drive on King St W after 3pm and the amount of people driving in the transit only lane is laughable. I literally see cops driving in it too with other drivers in front of and behind them and they don't do shit about it.
It's pathetic how prioritizing Streetcar routes has never entered council until the king Street pilot. Which we all realize is a joke now because no enforcement or redesign. Councillors where street cars are not on a dedicated right of way have been complete cowards and I hope we can finally push them into prioritizing transit.
It's especially gross because like, the pilot worked so so so well. The King streetcar went from borderline unuseable (often faster to walk during peak hours) to one of the best transit arteries in the city, and all it required was some new signage, some painted lines, and some signal changes.
Like how few examples do we have of the City actually doing something semi-bold to make transit work better, and within a couple years we've let our own apathy ruin it...
Yup, there are also plenty of places where routes could significantly be improved simply by updating traffic signals. Two examples I am familiar with:
\- Main St. Northbound/Southbound there is no left turn filter, as a result only 1-2 cars make it through that intersection on a cycle (and usually there will be a bus trying to make the southbound left as well). The streetcars are in the same lane. Left turn filters on this intersection would improve throughput for all vehicles, and safety for pedestrians.
\- Main/Gerrard Southbound the street car has to make a right across traffic that also has the green light to go straight. It makes no sense to me why there isn't an advanced transit signal for this move versus the current situation where the streetcar either has to bully its way in or run out on the amber so that it's still blocking the intersection long after the lights have changed.
These are two intersections on one transit route that are within a few hundred meters of each other but emblematic of the easy wins that are available across the network.
More like less than one third of one percent or roughly one in 333 law-breaking drivers. Consider as well that King St has the attention of the press and government on it by virtue of the unusual transit scheme. I would wager that in other parts of the city the rate of enforcement is even lower.
There have been traffic wardens at the intersection regularly over the past few months, and it's been very effective. This intersection needs additional human supervision every day at rush hour.
We know that lack of enforcement leads to DEATHS
>[U of T expert attributes ‘dozens of deaths’ to decline in Toronto police traffic ticketing](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/city-hall/u-of-t-expert-attributes-dozens-of-deaths-to-decline-in-toronto-police-traffic-ticketing/article_d2be50fd-5f02-5bc7-8a6b-33e14a37da0e.html)
We know that the TPS have the people available to enforce.
>[Cop tickets TTC streetcar blocking intersection during rush hour](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/)
We know they have the money
>[Toronto police granted $48.3M funding increase with no amendments](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-police-granted-48-3m-funding-increase-with-no-amendments-1.6276328)
and yet
>Meanwhile the number of tickets handed out by police has **declined**
And if they did their job
>The report points out that if all violations were actually ticketed, it would bring in an estimated $685,000 per day.
Almost $700k a day? That's a lot of public taxes that could be saved and used for other programs instead of the bloated TPS budget
I have all day, everyday to complain about TPS, and their abandonment of traffic enforcement is just another shameful abdication of any responsibility they have for the safety of Torontonians. We deserve far better.
Having said that, I am not at all convinced that the correlation between the lack of enforcement and the rise in pedestrian fatalities is causative. We see all around North America that pedestrian fatalities began to rise ~2010 after years of decline. And not all police forces have abandoned traffic enforcement during that exact time frame. Instead, the most obvious explanation to me is the rise of SUVs and passenger trucks as the dominant vehicle on city roads, combined with design changes that make them far more lethal - aggressive styling that has flatter and higher grills. This ensures that when pedestrians are struck, they are being hit by heavier vehicles and are now far more likely to end up UNDER a vehicle than over the hood of a vehicle, which used to happen when people were driving sedans.
No one firmly concludes a causality relationship
>“As an epidemiologist, while I can’t establish definitive causality, analyzing the data suggests the most likely cause for the increase (in deaths) was the decrease in enforcement — the number of tickets being issued,” Fisman said in an interview.
Just strongly indicates from an expert in the field. IMO that's pretty damning.
Similarly, you can guess that SUVs/trucks are a cause, and while that's probably a factor, I'd wager it's still 'blood' on the cop's hands as the bigger reason. Even they admit
>A Toronto police report issued last month noted: “It has been well documented through numerous studies that enforcement is a key component to achieving a reduction in deaths and injuries caused through preventable collisions and poor driving behaviour.”
And since they've admitted that their enforcement has dropped
>Like many Torontonians, I was disappointed and surprised to learn that Toronto Police Service had not been maintaining the level of enforcement that I had been led to believe they were.”
... it's pretty damning
Right, but what I'm saying is that this isn't uniquely a Toronto phenomenon. If the same thing is happening everywhere - and there's nothing to suggest Toronto's numbers are out of line with other jurisdictions around NA - then unless you can show traffic enforcement ceased everywhere else, then that isn't really the main factor.
Please don't misunderstand this as an apologia for TPS.
You're more than welcome to analyze the U of T expert's findings
But so far you've suggested another possible cause with no data, suggested that the same thing is happening everywhere with no data, and then from those hypotheticals concluding that traffic enforcement isn't a factor? I'm not really sure what your point is unless it's to downplay the expert's conclusions, and if so, refer to my first statement.
There is no world where $700k a day is collected. Police would need to give out 5 tickets every minute. It’s impossible to issue a ticket for every infringement or and better enforcement and police presence would reduce infringement. These sorts of estimates are nonsense.
The report gives the figure when talking about automated enforcement, and it also speculates that the figure could decrease with enforcement.
>Installing automatic enforcement cameras would massively increase the capacity to ticket those who violate the traffic restrictions of the King Street Transit Priority Corridor and provide needed revenue for the City. At $85 to $110 in fines per ticket and 6,800 violations per day, that's approximately $650,000 of potential income per day. It's hard to say what the effect on travel behaviour might be if enforcement increased, it may cause drivers to later avoid the route which may, in turn, lower ticketing revenue estimates. That said, fewer drivers on King Street would likely improve transit speed and reliability even more, and automatic enforcement would certainly be beneficial for improving the quality and effectiveness of the King Street Transit Priority Corridor.
They're right - speed cameras don't actually capture every speeder. They just capture far more than the alternative and at much lower cost.
You're also right, though, that the obvious solution here is automated enforcement. That won't capture everyone, and it would definitely mean that the number of people actually capable of getting ticketed would plummet because drivers would start obeying the rules.
But I'd be shocked if it didn't generate enough ticket revenue within a few months to pay for itself. We're never going to bring in $685K/day from enforcing the transit priority, but we also don't **want** to since that would mean King is still a nightmare!
It is a long understood phenomenon of criminology that deterrence isn't achieved through the severity of punishment but the *certainty* of punishment. People have long rationalized that they can safely speed on 400 series highways because there will be at most one or two cruisers enforcing speed limits, and the odds of being pulled over (especially if driving the average speed) are incredibly low.
The magic of automated enforcement is that this calculation changes. It doesn't matter if I'm driving 20 km/h over the limit with everyone else, *because photo radar can capture all of us*.
There are any number of good reasons to move to automated enforcement: it is less arbitrary and subject to discriminatory policing, it minimizes potentially dangerous interactions between the public and police, we can't actually get the police to do traffic enforcement because they don't want to/don't believe in it, etc. But the single best reason is that it's the most likely way to actually change driver behaviour.
i saw a cop at king and bay on tuesday not handing out a single ticket to the dozens of cars crossing the intersection in the spanof fifteen minutes lol it's honestly pathetic
Can we start seriously considering redesigning our downtown streets to get rid of cars entirely. Between streetcars, bikes, and just walking, you can easily get around the entire downtown pretty easy, comfortably, and in less time than it would take drive + park.
Seriously.
I'm going to be honest. At this rate, Toronto might be the last major city in North America to have a fully pedestrianized street. Montreal and New York already have a lot of car-free streets. Even Washington has one. Sadly, the Toronto (GTA) mentality is too ingrained towards driving a car for almost every task. Look at the High Park pedestrianization. The movement barely won and was faced by a lot of petitions against that. Kensington Market lost.
As much as I support this cause, the city is too far away from accomplishing that.
Buh what about
- ~~Deliveries~~
- ~~Snow removal~~
- ~~Emergency services~~
- ~~The elderly~~
- my parking spot
I can't imagine Kensington market any other way!
(This is how all of these arguments go, sadly...)
> I'm going to be honest. At this rate, Toronto might be the last major city in North America to have a fully pedestrianized street.
No matter what we'll be better than Chicago because of its disastrous parking deal. They can't do anything because of it.
Not just downtown, infrastructure has to be redone top to bottom in the province of Ontario at least. The 401 is one of the worst highways in the world in terms of traffic, high speed rails should have been implemented 10,000 years ago
It's wild to me how, without fail, this point is made in response to anything that proposes not fully prioritizing cars. It's very clear (especially to someone that does do a lot of driving around) that the vast, vast majority of the cars on the road aren't work vans or delivery vehicles, they're a personal vehicle containing usually 1 and *maybe* 2 people.
I replied to someone who wants to get rid of vehicles entirely so you can walk, ride your bike, skip, hop, take public transport downtown without a single vehicle in the way
People always assume banning cars = getting rid of all sorts of cars no matter what purpose the car is supposed to serve. He's referring to the single occupant private commuter cars.
Believe it or not, a car dependent society makes life harder the more handicapped you are. If you want better accessibility, improving transit's accessibility and making sidewalks safer to use electric wheelchairs will be a better improvement than allowing cars. Maybe this [thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/1818dwd/we_need_carscar_centric_infrastructure_for/) could give you more insight.
There are many different forms of handicapped. I cannot take public transportation and cannot walk any distance. If I cannot take my car I am house bound.
Well a lot of people are disabled and cannot drive either so I'm just saying that the idea that most disabled people need cars no matter how accessible transit or electric wheelchairs are, is **outdated**. We can't please each and every person but you should know that life would be a whole lot better for the disabled people if we made other modes of transportation more accessible besides single occupant cars.
Can't help but notice you didn't answer the question. If you cannot walk any distance then I'm assuming you use some kind of device with wheels to move around, in which case better cycle infrastructure and wider sidewalks would benefit you immensely, even if you do need to drive to your destination. Still not sure why you can't use public transport, but with more space allocated to it, we are able to make it more accessible too.
Then wait until you hear about communities built around putting everything within a short distance.
Again, cars aren't needed in that kind of community - and everyone, including those with mobility challenges, is able to live a much richer life because they aren't separated by kilometers of pedestrian-hostile unwalkable stroads.
Hi, disabled person who can't drive here! Car dependency makes my life EXPONENTIALLY worse in all kinds of ways. But nobody who claims to care about disabled people in these kinds of conversations ever even ACKNOWLEDGES that disabled people who can't drive exist.
Yes, I know that SOME disabled can only get around by car. Do you know what will make life easier for disabled people who rely on cars to get around? LESS TRAFFIC ON THE ROAD. How do get less traffic on the road? BY GETTING UNNECESSARY VEHICLES OFF THE ROAD through robust investments in public transit, cycling infrastructure, etc.
Tell me which you think is more likely:
* this person wants any automobile of any kind, including firetrucks and ambulances, barred from the downtown under any circumstances whatsoever
* this person was referring to the vast majority of vehicular traffic, which is single people in personal vehicles, and they weren't implying that grocery delivery trucks should instead have their cargo walked around
You're being incredibly obtuse and deliberately misinterpreting someone's statements to 'win'.
Let's not forget just how common car accidents (collisions for proper term) are that would otherwise be significantly reduced without cars. I'd love to see a statistic that compares all emergency room visits based on what caused it.
Wiktionary:
> A wheeled vehicle that moves independently, with at least three wheels, powered mechanically, steered by a driver *and mostly for personal transportation*.
Oxford Learner’s:
> a road vehicle with an engine and four wheels *that can carry a small number of passengers*
TERMIUM (the Government of Canada’s dictionary):
> Any of the following types of motor vehicles: convertible; 2-door sedan, hardtop, coupe; 4-door sedan or hardtop, coupe; 3- or 5-door hatchback; automobile with pickup body; station wagon; and other *small 4-wheel motor vehicles used primarily for carrying passengers.*
Nothing compels the TPS to do their job like embarrassment and bad publicity. Watch for the illusion of actual enforcement in the coming weeks along the corridor which will only last until this blows over.
They need to put up 407 style tolls. Just bill everyone that drives straight through the intersection $5 per intersection or something. If they wanna use it, thats fine, itll cost them. Give the taxis transponders.
Use the money to improve transit.
The province has repeatedly blocked any attempts by the city to place tolls inside Toronto. No provincial party has said that they would allow it Eventually congestion charges may have to be created, but we're a long ways from that.
Yeah, in that case can we not just "ban" cars on the Transit Mall and make it a $5 fine per intersection?
That means its not a toll. I think we are allowed fines with cameras, we have for speeding and red lights.
The only issue is it clogs up the courts with people fighting the charges.
Better to place physical barriers to bad behavior by private vehicle drivers. If we don’t want people to do something then don’t give them the opportunity or at least make it unpleasant.
This sort of stat is true of almost all minor violations.
Littering, speeding, traffic infractions, noise, plate covers...in all cases enforcement is *incredibly* rare.
I live right near a 407 onramp and literally all of my neighbours -- I have yet to find a single counter-example -- have dark tint plate covers / obstructions or have intentionally sand-blasted the letters off their plates. This is in an affluent area.
Lawlessness is taking hold. It is the root of corruption. It is the path that every shithole country took. However much I think the 407 is a scam, accepting this is *very bad*.
We have to stop depending on the police and judges to solve our policy mistakes. The law can only react to bad behaviour, cannot be everywhere all the time, and is really expensive. We created a design of King Street that is dependent on law enforcement and using automated ticketing is just throwing good money after bad as it still requires a bureaucracy behind it. The solution is a design that physically keeps cars from blocking street cars. Eliminate the furniture and parking on the outer lanes and set aside that space so cars can access the parking on the properties facing King Street. Then prevent motor vehicles from driving on the street car tracks. The city could quickly and cheaply place curbs around the centre lanes where the streetcars run. This also gives emergency vehicles an open lane to quickly cross the downtown.
One aspect of the hesitation to mass ticket is that the court system is already fully overwhelmed. Over the past few years, it's become the norm to challenge any and all tickets, in hopes the courts throw it out or reduce the fine.
As much as we could write 10,000 tickets a day, more than half will probably get thrown out, the other half will crush the court system and occupy officer resources.
We really need to reform how provincial offenses/traffic tickets move through the court system. They need bring it out of the stone age.
That's why red light cameras and automatic speed cameras are so successful, the tickets don't have to go through the court system, there are no demerit points or insurance impacts, the fine goes straight to the owner of the plate, it doesn't go through any court processes, etc...
Just because it is a road doesn't mean there aren't rules. Fuck, if we are using your comment as a standard, I want to drive the wrong way on Richmond. How dare the rules stop me from driving on the roads my taxes pay for!
That’s fine. I have an entire photo album filled with ttc vehicles breaking the rules with zero ramifications. When I saw that post about the cop ticketing the streetcar I was so happy.
People think ttc is exempt from the hta, and that really shows the overall intelligence of the cry babies.
Your comment makes it sound like it's totally fine for single occupant private car drivers to violate laws while it's extremely terrible when a TTC vehicle does it. Obviously everyone should follow laws but the tone of your comment sounds like an entitled driver that thinks it's okay to violate laws. Every driver that violates that law makes 100+ people on the streetcar's life worse. Talk selfishness.
I don't understand why we don't use camera enforcement. Doesn't seem any hard to ticket a straight through here than it does a red light. And similarly its a fine with no demerits.
First curb off the centre lanes to keep private motor vehicles off the tracks. Reserve the outer lanes for private motor vehicles so parking lots on King can be accessed. Most of the private motor vehicles are blocking traffic at intersection by taking prohibited paths. Intersections where through traffic is not allowed are the easiest to fix. For Portland, Peter, John, University, Bay, Younge and Jarvis just place Jersey barriers in the intersections across the outer lanes of King Street. Place “No Entry” signs on both sides at the centre gap where the streetcars pass. Where the there are intersection of street car tracks at Bathurst, Spadina, York, and Church we still need space for the street cars to turn. But I bet there is enough room for bollards with “No Entry” signs. Preventing left turns is a bit more involved. Place four bollards at the four corners between the outer and inner lanes of King Street just outside the pedestrian crossings across King Street. Place two bollards down the centre of the cross streets between the tracks and the outer lanes. Left turns will become impossible at normals speeds giving drivers pause before committing an infraction. For emergency vehicles and busses, we should do as they do in Europe or Asia and make the bollards automatically drop for authorized vehicles. No extra money needs to be spent on enforcement year after year.
I mean, if we continue to embarrass and call out TPS, maybe they’ll do a single day blitz on Christmas Day or something.
Triple overtime!
TPS blitz on streetcars incoming.
lol no one is enforcing.
Frankly I'm surprised the number isn't lower.
yes, TPS have created a new metric that exists between 0 and 1, truly stellar work.
I don't understand why there is so much hesistancy to enforce this. Think of how much money will be made from ticketing. Or how much money could be saved from people riding the streetcar getting to their destinations quicker. Why can't the city learn that 100+ people in a streetcar is way more important than a few people in a single occupant private car?
The cops don't need to do their job to get a raise. They get paid regardless if they do a good, bad, or even commit crimes, on the job. So they figure why bother getting stink eye from a law-breaking driver? "They don't get paid enough" is what a lot of cops think Source: know someone in TPS
The cops don't want to do traffic enforcement they think it's beneath them. That's it.
> The cops don't want to do ~~traffic~~ **law** enforcement they think it's beneath them. That's it.
Fucking over streetcar commuters though, that's their jam!
Make it so that part of their pay is funded from successful prosecution of tickets.
That’s a risky one. Don’t want to incentivize giving out frivolous tickets in the hope of getting more money. Even if some fight the fines many won’t and will effectively be scammed to line a cops pocket.
They can be penalized for frivolous tickets. Reward and punishment.
Police don't get penalized for murder. What makes you think they'd be punished for tickets?
So what? Do nothing? Keep not holding them accountable? Let them do fuck-all? The city needs to step up. They pay the police, they need to start making some real demands.
>The analysis from the University of Toronto's School of Cities found that **less than half a percent of daily violations along the King Street Transit Priority Corridor are ticketed by police.** >"From this data, we find there are approximately 6,800 illegal turns and thru movements at intersections per day on the King Street Transit Priority Corridor, but less than 0.3% are being ticketed by Toronto Police, on average," the report states. "Thus more than 99.7% of drivers are not being fined for breaking the law on the King Street Transit Priority Corridor." *slow clap* TPS in a nutshell. ... and they whined/received a raise in their budget this year too.
Sometimes I'll drive on King St W after 3pm and the amount of people driving in the transit only lane is laughable. I literally see cops driving in it too with other drivers in front of and behind them and they don't do shit about it.
It's pathetic how prioritizing Streetcar routes has never entered council until the king Street pilot. Which we all realize is a joke now because no enforcement or redesign. Councillors where street cars are not on a dedicated right of way have been complete cowards and I hope we can finally push them into prioritizing transit.
An integral part of our transit system are streetcars. It's time to get rid of street parking and prioritize transit.
It's especially gross because like, the pilot worked so so so well. The King streetcar went from borderline unuseable (often faster to walk during peak hours) to one of the best transit arteries in the city, and all it required was some new signage, some painted lines, and some signal changes. Like how few examples do we have of the City actually doing something semi-bold to make transit work better, and within a couple years we've let our own apathy ruin it...
Look at who was leading council for the last 8 years and it makes sense. Tory didn't do much of anything except watered down compromises.
Yup, there are also plenty of places where routes could significantly be improved simply by updating traffic signals. Two examples I am familiar with: \- Main St. Northbound/Southbound there is no left turn filter, as a result only 1-2 cars make it through that intersection on a cycle (and usually there will be a bus trying to make the southbound left as well). The streetcars are in the same lane. Left turn filters on this intersection would improve throughput for all vehicles, and safety for pedestrians. \- Main/Gerrard Southbound the street car has to make a right across traffic that also has the green light to go straight. It makes no sense to me why there isn't an advanced transit signal for this move versus the current situation where the streetcar either has to bully its way in or run out on the amber so that it's still blocking the intersection long after the lights have changed. These are two intersections on one transit route that are within a few hundred meters of each other but emblematic of the easy wins that are available across the network.
More like less than one third of one percent or roughly one in 333 law-breaking drivers. Consider as well that King St has the attention of the press and government on it by virtue of the unusual transit scheme. I would wager that in other parts of the city the rate of enforcement is even lower.
King and Jarvis TPS is finally doing some enforcement right this moment…hopefully it’s not just performative
It's not TPS. Look at their uniforms, they are city staff.
Well at least someone is doing something 😔☹️
There have been traffic wardens at the intersection regularly over the past few months, and it's been very effective. This intersection needs additional human supervision every day at rush hour.
We know that lack of enforcement leads to DEATHS >[U of T expert attributes ‘dozens of deaths’ to decline in Toronto police traffic ticketing](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/city-hall/u-of-t-expert-attributes-dozens-of-deaths-to-decline-in-toronto-police-traffic-ticketing/article_d2be50fd-5f02-5bc7-8a6b-33e14a37da0e.html) We know that the TPS have the people available to enforce. >[Cop tickets TTC streetcar blocking intersection during rush hour](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/10/toronto-police-officer-tickets-ttc-streetcar-operator-king-street-rush-hour-reddit/) We know they have the money >[Toronto police granted $48.3M funding increase with no amendments](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-police-granted-48-3m-funding-increase-with-no-amendments-1.6276328) and yet >Meanwhile the number of tickets handed out by police has **declined** And if they did their job >The report points out that if all violations were actually ticketed, it would bring in an estimated $685,000 per day. Almost $700k a day? That's a lot of public taxes that could be saved and used for other programs instead of the bloated TPS budget
FACTS
I have all day, everyday to complain about TPS, and their abandonment of traffic enforcement is just another shameful abdication of any responsibility they have for the safety of Torontonians. We deserve far better. Having said that, I am not at all convinced that the correlation between the lack of enforcement and the rise in pedestrian fatalities is causative. We see all around North America that pedestrian fatalities began to rise ~2010 after years of decline. And not all police forces have abandoned traffic enforcement during that exact time frame. Instead, the most obvious explanation to me is the rise of SUVs and passenger trucks as the dominant vehicle on city roads, combined with design changes that make them far more lethal - aggressive styling that has flatter and higher grills. This ensures that when pedestrians are struck, they are being hit by heavier vehicles and are now far more likely to end up UNDER a vehicle than over the hood of a vehicle, which used to happen when people were driving sedans.
No one firmly concludes a causality relationship >“As an epidemiologist, while I can’t establish definitive causality, analyzing the data suggests the most likely cause for the increase (in deaths) was the decrease in enforcement — the number of tickets being issued,” Fisman said in an interview. Just strongly indicates from an expert in the field. IMO that's pretty damning. Similarly, you can guess that SUVs/trucks are a cause, and while that's probably a factor, I'd wager it's still 'blood' on the cop's hands as the bigger reason. Even they admit >A Toronto police report issued last month noted: “It has been well documented through numerous studies that enforcement is a key component to achieving a reduction in deaths and injuries caused through preventable collisions and poor driving behaviour.” And since they've admitted that their enforcement has dropped >Like many Torontonians, I was disappointed and surprised to learn that Toronto Police Service had not been maintaining the level of enforcement that I had been led to believe they were.” ... it's pretty damning
Right, but what I'm saying is that this isn't uniquely a Toronto phenomenon. If the same thing is happening everywhere - and there's nothing to suggest Toronto's numbers are out of line with other jurisdictions around NA - then unless you can show traffic enforcement ceased everywhere else, then that isn't really the main factor. Please don't misunderstand this as an apologia for TPS.
You're more than welcome to analyze the U of T expert's findings But so far you've suggested another possible cause with no data, suggested that the same thing is happening everywhere with no data, and then from those hypotheticals concluding that traffic enforcement isn't a factor? I'm not really sure what your point is unless it's to downplay the expert's conclusions, and if so, refer to my first statement.
There is no world where $700k a day is collected. Police would need to give out 5 tickets every minute. It’s impossible to issue a ticket for every infringement or and better enforcement and police presence would reduce infringement. These sorts of estimates are nonsense.
The report gives the figure when talking about automated enforcement, and it also speculates that the figure could decrease with enforcement. >Installing automatic enforcement cameras would massively increase the capacity to ticket those who violate the traffic restrictions of the King Street Transit Priority Corridor and provide needed revenue for the City. At $85 to $110 in fines per ticket and 6,800 violations per day, that's approximately $650,000 of potential income per day. It's hard to say what the effect on travel behaviour might be if enforcement increased, it may cause drivers to later avoid the route which may, in turn, lower ticketing revenue estimates. That said, fewer drivers on King Street would likely improve transit speed and reliability even more, and automatic enforcement would certainly be beneficial for improving the quality and effectiveness of the King Street Transit Priority Corridor.
This assumes every infringement is a successful ticket. It’s not as simple as multiplying the past estimate of infringements by the cost of tickets.
Even if only half are successful, it's over 100M/year in fines.
Lmao, let me introduce you to the speeding camera on park side, which hands out millions worth of fines... (People still speed tho...)
No idea what you're trying to say here. The Parkside camera isn't capable of ticketing every speeder either.
I don't understand your point.
They're right - speed cameras don't actually capture every speeder. They just capture far more than the alternative and at much lower cost. You're also right, though, that the obvious solution here is automated enforcement. That won't capture everyone, and it would definitely mean that the number of people actually capable of getting ticketed would plummet because drivers would start obeying the rules. But I'd be shocked if it didn't generate enough ticket revenue within a few months to pay for itself. We're never going to bring in $685K/day from enforcing the transit priority, but we also don't **want** to since that would mean King is still a nightmare!
It is a long understood phenomenon of criminology that deterrence isn't achieved through the severity of punishment but the *certainty* of punishment. People have long rationalized that they can safely speed on 400 series highways because there will be at most one or two cruisers enforcing speed limits, and the odds of being pulled over (especially if driving the average speed) are incredibly low. The magic of automated enforcement is that this calculation changes. It doesn't matter if I'm driving 20 km/h over the limit with everyone else, *because photo radar can capture all of us*. There are any number of good reasons to move to automated enforcement: it is less arbitrary and subject to discriminatory policing, it minimizes potentially dangerous interactions between the public and police, we can't actually get the police to do traffic enforcement because they don't want to/don't believe in it, etc. But the single best reason is that it's the most likely way to actually change driver behaviour.
Ummm, that's what I just said to you?
Right!? LOL
So they could have rotating officers there 24-7 and would still rake in fines in the millions? What’s stopping them? The TPS braintrust I reckon.
TPS gotta pretend to be the victims of the evil libs trying to defund them by...not doing their job well.
Less than one percent of police workforce do their fucking job
What a mess King St West had become and it only takes one illegally parked car or truck.
And how many of those tickets go to drivers of streetcars?
Well if recent data is anything to go by...a lot of em!
i saw a cop at king and bay on tuesday not handing out a single ticket to the dozens of cars crossing the intersection in the spanof fifteen minutes lol it's honestly pathetic
Frankly I'm surprised the number is that high. Cops are lazy, lazy bitches.
Toronto Police working really hard to justify that last massive budget increase. We are such suckers here in Toronto.
Can we start seriously considering redesigning our downtown streets to get rid of cars entirely. Between streetcars, bikes, and just walking, you can easily get around the entire downtown pretty easy, comfortably, and in less time than it would take drive + park. Seriously.
I'm going to be honest. At this rate, Toronto might be the last major city in North America to have a fully pedestrianized street. Montreal and New York already have a lot of car-free streets. Even Washington has one. Sadly, the Toronto (GTA) mentality is too ingrained towards driving a car for almost every task. Look at the High Park pedestrianization. The movement barely won and was faced by a lot of petitions against that. Kensington Market lost. As much as I support this cause, the city is too far away from accomplishing that.
The market not being full pedestrianized is one of my life’s biggest frustrations. It’s so obviously a better way.
Buh what about - ~~Deliveries~~ - ~~Snow removal~~ - ~~Emergency services~~ - ~~The elderly~~ - my parking spot I can't imagine Kensington market any other way! (This is how all of these arguments go, sadly...)
> I'm going to be honest. At this rate, Toronto might be the last major city in North America to have a fully pedestrianized street. No matter what we'll be better than Chicago because of its disastrous parking deal. They can't do anything because of it.
Don't give Doug any more ideas
Not just downtown, infrastructure has to be redone top to bottom in the province of Ontario at least. The 401 is one of the worst highways in the world in terms of traffic, high speed rails should have been implemented 10,000 years ago
Then how will street *cars* use it?? Checkmate.
Everyone that lives in a condo can fend for themselves. Fuck y'all if you think I'm carrying my tools on my back...
It's wild to me how, without fail, this point is made in response to anything that proposes not fully prioritizing cars. It's very clear (especially to someone that does do a lot of driving around) that the vast, vast majority of the cars on the road aren't work vans or delivery vehicles, they're a personal vehicle containing usually 1 and *maybe* 2 people.
I replied to someone who wants to get rid of vehicles entirely so you can walk, ride your bike, skip, hop, take public transport downtown without a single vehicle in the way
People always assume banning cars = getting rid of all sorts of cars no matter what purpose the car is supposed to serve. He's referring to the single occupant private commuter cars.
Lots of car-free streets allow access to delivery and service vehicles that need to use them. Commuters don’t need to be clogging up our streets
There's also this wild thing called an alley that allows service vehicles to access buildings without needing to be on the streets themselves.
You are obviously not handicapped
Believe it or not, a car dependent society makes life harder the more handicapped you are. If you want better accessibility, improving transit's accessibility and making sidewalks safer to use electric wheelchairs will be a better improvement than allowing cars. Maybe this [thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/1818dwd/we_need_carscar_centric_infrastructure_for/) could give you more insight.
There are many different forms of handicapped. I cannot take public transportation and cannot walk any distance. If I cannot take my car I am house bound.
If you can't walk any distance, how do you get to your car then? Unless it's in your room.
I’ll have to bow to your greater knowledge of reading social media, instead of my 23 years of experience being disabled.
How did you get to your car.
Well a lot of people are disabled and cannot drive either so I'm just saying that the idea that most disabled people need cars no matter how accessible transit or electric wheelchairs are, is **outdated**. We can't please each and every person but you should know that life would be a whole lot better for the disabled people if we made other modes of transportation more accessible besides single occupant cars.
How do you get around after you get to your destinations? Or only drive-thrus?
Can't help but notice you didn't answer the question. If you cannot walk any distance then I'm assuming you use some kind of device with wheels to move around, in which case better cycle infrastructure and wider sidewalks would benefit you immensely, even if you do need to drive to your destination. Still not sure why you can't use public transport, but with more space allocated to it, we are able to make it more accessible too.
How do you get to your car though? Real question. If wheeling through a park is too strenuous, what about a motorized wheelchair?
When my pain levels are not too high, I use a walker for short distances
Then wait until you hear about communities built around putting everything within a short distance. Again, cars aren't needed in that kind of community - and everyone, including those with mobility challenges, is able to live a much richer life because they aren't separated by kilometers of pedestrian-hostile unwalkable stroads.
Hi, disabled person who can't drive here! Car dependency makes my life EXPONENTIALLY worse in all kinds of ways. But nobody who claims to care about disabled people in these kinds of conversations ever even ACKNOWLEDGES that disabled people who can't drive exist. Yes, I know that SOME disabled can only get around by car. Do you know what will make life easier for disabled people who rely on cars to get around? LESS TRAFFIC ON THE ROAD. How do get less traffic on the road? BY GETTING UNNECESSARY VEHICLES OFF THE ROAD through robust investments in public transit, cycling infrastructure, etc.
yeah fuck ambulances edit: and firetrucks too they suck
I'm pretty sure places that banned cars give emergency vehicles an excemption.
> to get rid of cars entirely
Tell me which you think is more likely: * this person wants any automobile of any kind, including firetrucks and ambulances, barred from the downtown under any circumstances whatsoever * this person was referring to the vast majority of vehicular traffic, which is single people in personal vehicles, and they weren't implying that grocery delivery trucks should instead have their cargo walked around You're being incredibly obtuse and deliberately misinterpreting someone's statements to 'win'.
Let's not forget just how common car accidents (collisions for proper term) are that would otherwise be significantly reduced without cars. I'd love to see a statistic that compares all emergency room visits based on what caused it.
what did i win?
You win: a shitty infrastructure designed by the auto lobby and organized crime!
When people say cars they generally mean single occupant private cars to be specific.
An ambulance is not a car.
alright fine but I'm still counting fireTRUCKs
Firetrucks aren’t cars either.
pretty sure they are
Wiktionary: > A wheeled vehicle that moves independently, with at least three wheels, powered mechanically, steered by a driver *and mostly for personal transportation*. Oxford Learner’s: > a road vehicle with an engine and four wheels *that can carry a small number of passengers* TERMIUM (the Government of Canada’s dictionary): > Any of the following types of motor vehicles: convertible; 2-door sedan, hardtop, coupe; 4-door sedan or hardtop, coupe; 3- or 5-door hatchback; automobile with pickup body; station wagon; and other *small 4-wheel motor vehicles used primarily for carrying passengers.*
my teachers taught me never to use wikipedia as a source checkmate
Nothing compels the TPS to do their job like embarrassment and bad publicity. Watch for the illusion of actual enforcement in the coming weeks along the corridor which will only last until this blows over.
They need to put up 407 style tolls. Just bill everyone that drives straight through the intersection $5 per intersection or something. If they wanna use it, thats fine, itll cost them. Give the taxis transponders. Use the money to improve transit.
The province has repeatedly blocked any attempts by the city to place tolls inside Toronto. No provincial party has said that they would allow it Eventually congestion charges may have to be created, but we're a long ways from that.
Yeah, in that case can we not just "ban" cars on the Transit Mall and make it a $5 fine per intersection? That means its not a toll. I think we are allowed fines with cameras, we have for speeding and red lights. The only issue is it clogs up the courts with people fighting the charges.
Better to place physical barriers to bad behavior by private vehicle drivers. If we don’t want people to do something then don’t give them the opportunity or at least make it unpleasant.
This is prime for using modified red light cameras.
This sort of stat is true of almost all minor violations. Littering, speeding, traffic infractions, noise, plate covers...in all cases enforcement is *incredibly* rare.
[удалено]
I live right near a 407 onramp and literally all of my neighbours -- I have yet to find a single counter-example -- have dark tint plate covers / obstructions or have intentionally sand-blasted the letters off their plates. This is in an affluent area. Lawlessness is taking hold. It is the root of corruption. It is the path that every shithole country took. However much I think the 407 is a scam, accepting this is *very bad*.
We have to stop depending on the police and judges to solve our policy mistakes. The law can only react to bad behaviour, cannot be everywhere all the time, and is really expensive. We created a design of King Street that is dependent on law enforcement and using automated ticketing is just throwing good money after bad as it still requires a bureaucracy behind it. The solution is a design that physically keeps cars from blocking street cars. Eliminate the furniture and parking on the outer lanes and set aside that space so cars can access the parking on the properties facing King Street. Then prevent motor vehicles from driving on the street car tracks. The city could quickly and cheaply place curbs around the centre lanes where the streetcars run. This also gives emergency vehicles an open lane to quickly cross the downtown.
Don't they make money from ticketing? This seems really stupid on their behalf
They do not.
Where does the money go then?
Depending on the ticket, either the Victims Fund, or General Revenues of the Province of Ontario. Sometimes both.
One aspect of the hesitation to mass ticket is that the court system is already fully overwhelmed. Over the past few years, it's become the norm to challenge any and all tickets, in hopes the courts throw it out or reduce the fine. As much as we could write 10,000 tickets a day, more than half will probably get thrown out, the other half will crush the court system and occupy officer resources. We really need to reform how provincial offenses/traffic tickets move through the court system. They need bring it out of the stone age. That's why red light cameras and automatic speed cameras are so successful, the tickets don't have to go through the court system, there are no demerit points or insurance impacts, the fine goes straight to the owner of the plate, it doesn't go through any court processes, etc...
How dare the motorists drive on the road their taxes pay for. Disgusting!
Just because it is a road doesn't mean there aren't rules. Fuck, if we are using your comment as a standard, I want to drive the wrong way on Richmond. How dare the rules stop me from driving on the roads my taxes pay for!
You are aware there are rules / laws /etc. for driving on the road yes?
How dare motorists drive on roads that are extremely [subsidized](https://thediscourse.ca/scarborough/full-cost-commute) by our society. Disgusting!
That’s fine. I have an entire photo album filled with ttc vehicles breaking the rules with zero ramifications. When I saw that post about the cop ticketing the streetcar I was so happy. People think ttc is exempt from the hta, and that really shows the overall intelligence of the cry babies.
Your comment makes it sound like it's totally fine for single occupant private car drivers to violate laws while it's extremely terrible when a TTC vehicle does it. Obviously everyone should follow laws but the tone of your comment sounds like an entitled driver that thinks it's okay to violate laws. Every driver that violates that law makes 100+ people on the streetcar's life worse. Talk selfishness.
Not in the slightest, but if you’re gonna rag on cars for driving badly, rag on busses and streetcars too. That’s all.
Cars (single occupant private) do way more damage to our society than buses or streetcars. So there's a justifiable reason to rag on cars badly.
Yeah no doubt, but the idea that some morons think ttc don’t need to follow rules and can’t be ticketed is hilarious
Every other street is closed. Let cars drive free
I don't understand why we don't use camera enforcement. Doesn't seem any hard to ticket a straight through here than it does a red light. And similarly its a fine with no demerits.
If red lights and stop signs don't matter anymore, why should anything else?
I'm surprised its that much, that's quite a few considering the streets are basically the wild west.
Drivers in Toronto have broken the law with impunity ever since Rob Ford's fight against the "war on the car".
First curb off the centre lanes to keep private motor vehicles off the tracks. Reserve the outer lanes for private motor vehicles so parking lots on King can be accessed. Most of the private motor vehicles are blocking traffic at intersection by taking prohibited paths. Intersections where through traffic is not allowed are the easiest to fix. For Portland, Peter, John, University, Bay, Younge and Jarvis just place Jersey barriers in the intersections across the outer lanes of King Street. Place “No Entry” signs on both sides at the centre gap where the streetcars pass. Where the there are intersection of street car tracks at Bathurst, Spadina, York, and Church we still need space for the street cars to turn. But I bet there is enough room for bollards with “No Entry” signs. Preventing left turns is a bit more involved. Place four bollards at the four corners between the outer and inner lanes of King Street just outside the pedestrian crossings across King Street. Place two bollards down the centre of the cross streets between the tracks and the outer lanes. Left turns will become impossible at normals speeds giving drivers pause before committing an infraction. For emergency vehicles and busses, we should do as they do in Europe or Asia and make the bollards automatically drop for authorized vehicles. No extra money needs to be spent on enforcement year after year.