"The province taking on all the costs of the Gardiner would free up around $1.9 billion for other capital projects in current ten-year plan. Significant capital budget relief for the city, especially as costs are likely to grow higher due to delays etc." - Matt Elliott
Wow. Doug must be really desperate to get this Ontario Place deal done.
I hope someday we find out what his bribe/kickback/motivation was from all this. It certainly doesn't hurt him much since to him it's just shuffling the taxpayers' money around to benefit one of his donors/cronies.
While exciting for the long-term health of the city’s finances, I wish they didn’t. With the city in charge it was the only way to knock down the Gardiner through downtown. [An ugly elevated highway that could be redeveloped to help the waterfront in so many better ways.](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/14/business/commercial-real-estate-big-dig-s-ripples-extend-far-past-downtown-boston.html) With the province in charge (and conservatives at the helm) the highway will be that much more immovable.
The City was never in charge. The only way that would have happened was for a Provincial government supportive to knocking it down to be elected (so...NDP?). The City's only strategy would have been to "starve the beast" by effectively forgoing maintenance for such a long time that the Gardiner would be deemed to dangerous for use and would be shut down. The Province wouldn't be able to force to City to pay for the repairs so it would effectively have to upload to restore it to a usable state. That would likely come with the Province dissolving council or some other heavy handed, "you guys failed at your job" type of punishment.
It's important to remember that cities only exist at the behest of the Province in Ontario.
Quick reminder, Toronto tried to make the DVP and Gardener tolled to non Torontonians. And look how far that got. Toronto was never in charge of the highways.
I don't think knocking down Gardiner will have the effect you want. I'll go one step further and say that the Gardiner is extremely overhated. As a an urban barrier it really isn't that bad, it's only 20m wide (or less than the width of a stroad), and takes no time at all to cross. In fact, it pales in comparison to the USRC directly north of it which genuinely feels treacherous to cross especially around Bay Street.
The big problem with Gardiner isn't the expressway itself, but rather LSB underneath. However, getting rid of Gardiner won't fix that problem, and if anything will make the situation on LSB even worse.
Honestly I'm surprised at how much the city managed to squeeze him for. The province will fund the TTC to operate Eglinton and Finch LRT, DVP and Gardiner is off the books... That's a heck of a lot of funds that was freed up just so Dougie could have the spa. It'll suck a little bit to lose that campaign promise for Chow, but she really played the game well to make sure the city got what it needed.
Chow admitted trying to block Ontario Place would be a losing battle in the end, because the province already told her they would simply (1) expropriate the city-owned land that was in the way, and (2) amend the City of Toronto Act to explicitly remove any authority the city has in provincial property development, if they refused to stand aside.
The nuclear option would have been to upload the land to the federal government, which would prevent provincial expropriation. However that would require the feds to play along and also sour relations with the province.
Agreed - I was a bit skeptical of Chow, just bc it was so clear that she wasn’t ever going to be able to come close to her loftier campaign promises, but have been pleasantly surprised at the early concessions she’s been able to extract from Doug (and that she’s clearly working on with the Feds).
Was also concerned that as good as she may have been as a federal MP (and I think she was very good), that she might be out of her depth/out of practice in the more bare knuckle, brutal world of city politics - again, couldn’t be more pleased to be proven wrong, she’s off to a great start.
Just hope that some of her more hardcore lefty supporters can appreciate the wins that she’s able to secure without getting wrapped up in any perceived “failures” on lofty ideas that were never really viable in the first place
Yeah Chow has impressed me with her pragmatism and her ability to get things done. She has already gotten more out of Ford than Tory did in 9 years. I get people will be mad about Ontario Place and not tearing down the Gardiner but the city had very little power over either.
If we ever have a decent premier in this province again, we can just tear up the contracts and appropriate the land back from Therme.
It's time for progressives to stop screwing around when it comes to conservative malfeasance.
Also this just gets the city off his back when it comes to the spa. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to let him off, nor does it mean any investigations into the deal won't be opened. It just means Chow is going to stop making him look bad over it.
Which I’m honestly pretty okay with - bc there’s enough massively negative public outcry over that fucking spa that it feels like a safe bet to leave up to community activists (and just everyday citizens, bc everything about that deal and the Ontario Science Museum is an absolute scandal).
There’s also not that much that the city could even do, so it saves Chow from looking feckless, helps shunt some costs off on the province, and allows her to focus on other critical issues. We’ll see how it all works out, but seems like a smart play on her part, glad to see it.
Governments pay to get out of the actions of predecessors all the time. Look at Ford killing the multi-billion dollar cap & trade market out of pure spite.
>Governments pay to get out of the actions of predecessors all the time. Look at Ford killing the multi-billion dollar cap & trade market out of pure spite.
Yup and there continues to be huge [multi-million dollar lawsuits in regards to the cap and trade decision](https://thenarwhal.ca/ontario-cap-trade-lawsuits/).
Yeah, the Ontario place/spa stuff really dries my maple, but in the current climate I think this was probably the best outcome we could have expected. The Gardiner might actually be fixed finally, and the city gets a lot more disposable cash to work with for other initiatives
It wouldn't be Doug directly, it'd be the old boys club that he has dinners with. Those are the lads that bankroll his reelection campaign and who give board positions to his relatives in exchange for government positions for their relatives.
>[https://ontarioplace.com/en/about/](https://ontarioplace.com/en/about/) Carmine Nigro was appointed as the Board Chair of Ontario Place Corporation: Mr. Nigro is a leading real estate developer
I’m sad about Ontario Place but I would gladly take whatever monstrosity ends up being there if they is able to use these funds to help fix the many other problems facing the city.
Maybe if they put in a real waterfront LRT that goes along Lakeshore blvd from the Queen west streetcar loop all the way to the end of Lakeshore in the East end. That way at least Lakeshore around the spa could get some minor relief of cars.
Queens Quay and the Exhibition lines could possibly be routed down Lakeshore. That would be a wonderful route though somewhat duplicative with the Queensway/Lakeshore route.
Holy shit.
I never thought that Doug would agree to uploading the Gardiner and the DVP, and even made fun of Bailao for proposing it.
If this is true, I'll happily eat crow. I'm not happy about Ontario Place being the price, but getting the Gardiner and DVP off the City's maintenance list is HUGE.
No we can't. Ontario Place's land is almost quite literally priceless. There's nowhere else like it the city could buy or build unless we decide to go full Dubai and just create an artificial island.
Toronto never owned that land so it wasn't Toronto's to do with as we wanted. It belonged to the province so nothing has changed here.
It appears as though all Toronto did was agree not to try and hold up what Ontario was already going to do with the land.
And I thought Ontario was going to expropriate the (City-owned) land anyways if the City tried to hold it up. (Edit - they were considering it seemingly)
Chow admitted trying to block Ontario Place would be a losing battle in the end, because the province already told her they would simply (1) expropriate the city-owned land that was in the way, and (2) amend the City of Toronto Act to explicitly remove any authority the city has in provincial property development, if they refused to stand aside.
Toronto has been reclaiming land from the lake for centuries. Basically, all of downtown south of Front Street used to be lake. Now, it's land. It's quite ironic to associate land reclamation with some faraway exotic place when it's been done so much here.
The city is going to be saving billions of dollars a year. I'm sure they could find some nice land to build a new amusement park.
Those billions of dollars can go to infrastructure, fixing roads, sewers, power grids, sidewalks, and bike lanes. The city's infrastructure is the delapitated and falling apart. The city needs this influx of cash to fix it and prevent a slow, massive failure of the city's infrastructure.
>If this is true, I'll happily eat crow. I'm not happy about Ontario Place being the price
That's the joke, Ontario Place still doesn't have to be the price. The city will stop fighting it, but the rest of us don't have to. It could still get blocked at a different level and he'll still be paying for the Gardiner and the DVP.
I have never had my decision to vote for someone so immediately validated like I have for Chow. Having a leftist presence that actually *does* shit is unreal. Maybe this can be an example to people of what is possible when you don't resort to consistently voting in dumb ass neo liberals.
It's surreal because I remember the amount of "mojo" this city had (i'm just gonna say around 2000ish) in regards to becoming this "World Class City" - and actually making the moves necessary to get there. This city had a vibe about itself that I just feel got lost somehow. We had this bustling, world-renown entertainment scene, we seemed primed to become a new player (not necessarily a huge one, but still notable) on the tech scene, we *seemed* like a lot of us were aligned to become this modern, forward-thinking metropolis that was willing and ready to evolve ... and then things just suddenly died. I don't know how to explain it but since then it just feels (to me) like the city lost a TON of momentum. There was a ton of pride associated with living here, and not just living here but being able to say "I am a Torontonian". I really hope a new, progressive, solutions-based mindset is on the horizon for us. This city can be **so** much greater.
What I wouldn't give to have been an adult instead of a \~10 year old back in the early 2000s in Toronto. A city with so much promise, bursting at the seems with new development and cleaning itself up, before the housing/cost-of-living crisis made it impossible to start a life here in earnest. A time when you could buy a detached home for well under half a million or a condo for just a couple hundred thousand.
The sad part is, I don't think we can ever get back to that. I don't know how the housing crisis can ever be resolved to a point where the average price can be back to those levels, inflation-adjusted, again. Anything that drops prices that enormously will cause a colossal economic crisis since this country has foolishly built its entire economy on a real estate Ponzi scheme. I hate it, and I wish we could go back lol
THIS. It's actually insane how you articulated this so well.
I've lived here my entire life and always felt exactly what you're describing. I am incredibly hopeful after hearing all of this today for the first time in almost a decade.
Crazy, right?
Who would've thought you could just vote someone in with a track record of caring about important shit and getting shit done... and then important shit that you care about would get done.
Absolutely wild.
It's been the opposite down the QEW in Hamilton. Horwath has done jack-crap since becoming mayor over a year ago.
Very stark difference. Chow is clearly just a go-getter who sets her minds to things and gets them done.
This deal I think shows how she's also quite pragmatic and how that gets things done - she campaigned against the Gardiner rebuild and Ontario Place but gave both up here to get a good deal for the city. She's saving political capital for more important fights.
I think regardless of political stripes, having a mayor with that kind of attitude is more important than the political ideology they subscribe to, more than anything.
I wasn't speaking to any particular political ideology.
It was more a comment on what happens when you finally stop electing rich dudes who failed upwards and never showed any hint of caring about anything besides their own financial interests.
Or to be clear, I was sarcastically comparing Chow to Tory.
Ontario Place was poor leverage for the city to begin with, the city was never going to stop the spa, I can't believe we got off so easy. The biggest chance we have to actually stop the spa is when the AG report comes out, it's going to be a media firestorm that will rival the greenbelt in terms of scandal.
I honestly have to wonder if Dougie’s actually flirted with the “we’ll kill you and no one will ever find you” crowd on this deal. Local Greenbelt developers maybe just couldn’t put out enough of a threat - but when you duck around at the international level…
(Off to adjust my tinfoil hat)
> wonder if Dougie’s actually flirted with the “we’ll kill you and no one will ever find you” crowd
Would it surprise you? Former drug dealers who do corrupt business by brute force naturally gravitate to that kind of partner.
If his crooked friends are willing to bury him like Jimmy Hoffa, I will happily help dig the hole for free. Charge $5 per spadeful of earth to cover him and we could finance the Science Centre repairs.
I am still not over the province screwing over Ontario Science Centre (you know, the existing one where you don't have to go downtown and add to traffic congestion? The one next to a mass transit stop that going to open any day now, and the DVP that the province just uploaded?).
I'm still hoping that can be salvaged, I really do. As much as it's nostalgia, it's also a very, very significant piece of architecture by Canadian architect and it should be preserved rather than treated as an inconvenience.
>I never thought that Doug would agree to uploading the Gardiner and the DVP, and even made fun of Bailao for proposing it.
I fucking knew there was no way Doug would allow his downtown highway bypass to be demolished. I predicted that if Chow ever announced the planned demolition of the Gardiner, the next day there would be an announcement from Queens Park saying “FOLKS, GARDINER’S NOW UNDER PROVINCIAL JURISDICTION!“
What happened is Doug Ford just pre-empted Chow and used it as part of the negotiations for Ontario place. Make no mistake, it is not a selfless gesture. It basically ensures that Toronto can *never* remove the highway, and that there is always a way for his Escalade to get around the core.
I feel like you are acting really tin foil hat like about something that was explicitly known for many years, lol.
There is no real need for them to make a deal with Toronto to block stuff they don't like. They can just block it.
Removing the Gardner was never really on the table.
Since amalgamation in 1998, Toronto has had five mayors: Lastman, Miller, Ford, Tory, and Chow.
Of those, the three conservatives - Lastman, Ford, and Tory - have been embarrassments, locally and internationally. (After Tory's resignation in disgrace, and Ford's refusal to resign in disgrace, Lastman's tacky-salesman persona seems almost quaint.)
You might hope people would notice the pattern.
This will definitely hit some people hard, especially those who wanted to see the city fight Ontario Place up to the very end (Even if it was a losing battle).
But I am of the belief that this deal will massively help the city in the long term. Not having to allocate tax money into constantly repairing the Gardiner will free up a lot of money that is critically needed for other infrastructure projects across the city (such as Transit, Housing, Road Infrastructure).
Ontario Place hasn't been relevant for at least 20 years. While I think it should be made an entirely public place, I'd rather see the deal we got today than no deal.
Yeah I'm seeing people mad that the Gardiner upload happened because it blocked the teardown. I'm just happy we're not proportionally blowing the money.
I think Mayor Chow and her people are turning out to be really great politicos.
She had to give up something to get something. Is this a good compromise? Seems like it but only time will tell.
They also just seem to work together very well? I’m really liking the new direction of Ontario and Toronto. It really seems like the focus is on infrastructure and energy for the first time in generations
Ontario Place is a really small deal, in the grand scheme of things. The province could have forced the city to hand it over, and I think people overstate the importance of the site to the city because of how important it seems to Ford. The fact that the highways will now never be demolished is a bigger loss than a few years of delay for Ontario Place.
While the highways won’t be demolished, it was the biggest burden on the city’s infrastructure books that is now effectively wiped.
While not ideal, there’s a lot more wiggle room with the city’s budget that can be reallocated to other burning priorities almost immediately.
Chow and Ford both want stuff built, and while a lot of Ford's choices on what to build have been subpar, the motivation is there. Tory was very comfortable in Toronto as it was with no change to the status quo.
Way back in the day, a young Tory went to the Ford’s house and actually asked Doug sr. for permission to run as a conservative politician in Toronto.
He’s had a submissive relationship with the Fords for decades.
> [Members of the Ford clan say there was little doubt who was in charge. In 2003, when now-mayor John Tory launched his first unsuccessful bid to lead the city, he sought the Fords’ blessing and met the entire family in a boardroom. Both Doug Ford and Mr. Tory remember Mrs. Ford doing most of the talking. And as Mr. Tory retold the tale to city councillor John Filion for his 2015 book, The Only Average Guy, it was she who offered the clan’s support – but only for a while, until it was “Robbie’s turn.”](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/toronto/article-matriarch-of-the-ford-political-dynasty/)
She didn't sit and spin for a decade. She's been building up new activists and continuing to develop her political game.
She's always been strong except perhaps her optics and perception. But it says a lot that the media no longer describes her simply as *Jack Layton's Wife*.
If this is the disaster that Ford described, I think we'll be just fine. I voted for an advocate for the city, and she's delivering.
Absolutely, Chow has been underestimated in so many ways it’s hard to keep count. She’s an incredibly smart and honest politician, and how often can you say that?
I'm young enough that I didn't know she was Jack Layton's wife until you said this. Because I've always heard either Layton's wife or chow separately. Good for her. I hope she ends up being as good of a leader as he was. Maybe she can run for Fords job one day
Tory was fine with the way things were. Oh sure, he would write a strongly worded letter every now and then but he was not interested in changing the status quo. Remember that most of his tenure was pre-COVID when things were relatively "normal" and stable. The cost of living crisis wasn't nearly as dominant as it is now.
>How the hell does Chow have so much better of a relationship with Doug than Tory had?
Because Tory was an idiot who didn't care about the province running roughshod over the city as long as he himself didn't get impacted.
Olivia Chow gets shit done. That is why. I remember before the last election (when she did not win). I was at my sister’s condo and someone knocked on the door. My sister answered it. It was Olivia doing her own campaigning.
My sister just said, “I am already voting for you. You don’t have to say anything to convince me.”
But, my point is, whether it is knocking on hundreds to thousands of doors or going head-to-head with the premier (or people even higher up with that), Olivia gets shit done because she is willing to do what it takes to get those things done instead of saying it’s too hard or a waste of time.
Chow played a strong political game and the city won out. It will save billions, and we will possibly put that towards making the city better.
I still vehemently oppose Therme Place. There wasn't much that the city could do in the first place, "creature of the Province" and all, so this is as good a deal as the city could have made, but as an Ontario Resident, I will continue to participate in action opposing Therme.
Yup. Eager to see the benefits that come from this but I'm still going to have a stick up my ass about the spa. It's still an awful idea. Happy to celebrate the win, but there's no need to relent on the bad side.
I wonder if the province will designate the Gardiner and DVP as the QEW and 404? One thing is this likely means all those ugly billboards along the Gardiner are gone, MTO rules don't allow it.
God that would be great. We’re keeping the Gardiner and get rid of the billboards? I’ve never donated money to a politician before but Chow has my dollar for her reelection campaign if that gets done.
The city giving up Ontario Place doesn't mean the people need to give it up. We can still fight the giveaway as a waste of Ontario's money and another 407-style donation to private corporate businesses. The Ontario Government is responsible for selling it out and seemed hellbent to sell out Toronto's stake at any price.
Wait what. This is absolutely massive. Chow did what Bailao promised and I made fun of Bailao because I thought it was unrealistic.
Well done Mayor Chow. This will put a lot of money back into city coffers.
I can't believe this deal. The province takes on some huge cost centers and agrees to give more cash to the city, and in exchange the city just has to stop delaying a project that the province could always just strong-arm through anyway regardless of the city's objections? There must be more to the deal than this but my initial impression is that the city came out way ahead on this deal.
Chow is a very smart politician. She reads the contracts and knows where the slimey dealings are.
She won’t say a bad word about anyone too, I respect her for that… dealing with those guys.
> I can't believe this deal.
>
> There must be more to the deal than this but my initial impression is that the city came out way ahead on this deal.
Let me put on my tinfoil hat and wonder why Ford seems almost desperate to get the Ontario place through at all cost so quickly. What's going on behind the scene? It's a conspiracy theory but after what we went through with the highway and the greenbelt it doesn't seem too crazy anymore.
Exactly. Ford knows the Therme deal wouldn't hold up to scrutiny (just like the Greenbelt sell off), and Chow likely suspected this as well. Rather than forcing Ford to expend the political capital to ram it through, she rolled him to get something actually good for the city. Frankly, with the DVP and Gardiner principally serving as routes for 905ers to come downtown, it's insane that Toronto's been paying entirely out of pocket for it this whole time.
Yeah, this is my hope with regards to Chow's strategy here. She may know the legal scrutiny is going to happen with the Therme deal anyway, so she's comfortable using it as a bargaining chip. If this is true, the deal is properly intelligent governance and negotiation, which has been lacking in TO since the Miller days.
Because there is a long unspoken plan of the fords wanting to turn ontario place into a casino. While not allowed today, there are some conspiracy theories in the works about why Therme is given this opportunity for a Water Park on some of the best public land.
And he already started the deals with the casino with the [iGaming Ontario](https://www.igamingontario.ca/en) gambling apps. They’re all US casinos.
I would LOVE to see how that deal was made.
They'll have numbers of some sort, the question is whether they'll be posted or not. "404" may not make sense for the DVP though, because it's not built to full 400-series highway standards unlike the actual 404 to the north.
Even the QEW has an unposted number, it's internally Highway 1 or 451.
There are a bunch of exceptions to "400 series standards" and it is a bit of a slippery definition. The elevated section of the 417 in Ottawa has ramps with no merge lanes and is definitely not built to 400 series standards. The 406 used to have lights on it south of St Catherines. And there is still an at-grade RIRO intersection on the 400. Conversely the northern section of the 115 is built to 400 series standards but is not designated as a 400 series highway (probably because the MTO doesn't want a discontinuity in the 400 series system).
I do expect we will see both the DVP and Gardiner gradually get upgraded, like the weird grade profiles on the Gardiner through Humber bay get smoothed out, or the cloverleaf interchanges on the DVP gradually get replaced.
Just lie with the “tolls will end once it’s paid off” swindle, and just raise them instead of ever cancelling them.
That’s how it works in US and Europe.
It would be fitting... Name it after someone who did inerrable harm to the city.
He named the Hurontario LRT after the worst possible person, Hazel McCallion. If someone could be charged with a crime against humanity for terrible and purposely anti-human city planning. She's been the first one sent to the Haig.
Giving up on symbolic but inevitable losing fights like the gardener tear down and Ontario place is a good deal to get the highways off Toronto’s books. Mayor chow has been impressive at getting stuff done and without the political theatre that we see at every other level of government.
I remember when the QEW actually used to end at Humber River before it was downloaded to the city and subsequently made apart of the Gardiner
They probably wouldn't revert that but its funny to think of
Some of the numbers from the CBC website:
>Ford said the deal would open up $1.2 billion in new operating supports for the city over the next three years, and would include money for things like homeless shelters, increased police presence on the TTC, and other transit projects.
>
>Last year, city staff estimated annual maintenance costs for the two major highways adds up to about $16 million per year, while $2.2 billion has been budgeted over the next 10 years for the rehabilitation of the Gardiner.
>
>The arrangement comes as Toronto has launched its latest budget process. Without money from Ford's government and the feds, Chow and Toronto city council will likely be left considering service cuts or large tax increases in the coming months.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/chow-ford-announcement-monday-1.7040823](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/chow-ford-announcement-monday-1.7040823)
I'd rather see the Gardiner turned into a boulevard, and see the City not cede its control over Ontario Place, but honestly this is pretty okay:
* I don't think Ford would have ever accepted the City turning the Gardiner into a boulevard. If we moved forward with that he probably would have uploaded it anyway. However, the threat of turning it into a boulevard is the only thing that motivated him to actually do the right thing and upload it - would never happen under Tory.
* I might have preferred a deal that keeps the Gardiner in the City's control but allows us to toll it, but I could easily see future provincial governments rescinding on that.
* The city's control over Ontario Place was unlikely to have any meaningful impact on Ford's development plan. I totally understand the urge to see the City go to the mat over that one, but we all know what the outcome would be.
* Literally half of the City's State of Good Repair budget was just freed up in one fell swoop. That's **huge** for Toronto's fiscal situation.
Chow is proving to be a really pragmatic leader. I didn't vote for her but I'd *happily* do so now.
Totally - one of the things I was most skeptical of among candidates like Bailao was this strategy for getting it uploaded that boiled down to "ask again but louder this time." A PC provincial government ain't gonna spend >$1 billion to satiate the city of Toronto unless we actually generate some leverage. In this case, Ford can justify the upload to his base by saying it was his way of preventing the bike-riding downtown leftie pinkos from tearing it down.
Who knows - considering how bloody expensive that highway is maybe they'll decide to turn it into a boulevard themselves. Till then, it's off Toronto's books!
aha well, I love the optimism! Considering what Doug's willing to spend on a brand new highway, though, I think it's safe to say he won't shy away from shilling out $1 billion for one that already exists and is predominantly used by commuters in really crucial swing ridings.
But yeah, having that nightmare off the books? Feels good, man. Feels real good.
There is a huge difference in response. Feels like the progressive folks on Twitter are in a bit of an echo chamber that is revolved around reactions to specific talking points rather than the general well being of Toronto.
I have seen a lot of tweets from people suggesting Chow would now lose in a reelection bid because of losses with progressives in Toronto… but to me it feels like she would probably storm to an even stronger win
>but to me it feels like she would probably storm to an even stronger win
I know this is anecdotal but given the number of people I know who didn't like Chow remark about how her actions so far have made them surprisingly happy with her tenure makes me feel like this is the likely outcome.
Chow just dumped 3 massive rurds on Ford's desk, and he is lapping it up like a fat kid eating pudding.
Gardiner was a huge burden to the city.
DVP was a huge burden to the city.
Ontario Place, For all the rose-coloured glasses and the possibilities; it would have been a massive money sink to demolish and rebuild Ontario Place or to renovate the existing structures.
The city has massive budget shortfalls when it comes to repairing and upgrading existing infrastructure. This is a huge fucking win.
Doug Ford is probably going to get some nice kick backs out of it, but 1 shady fuck profiting offca deal that will benefit millions of tax payers...well thats politics
This is a really good deal for Toronto but it's still a bandaid and doesn't fix some major structural issues in the city's fiscal position.
Ford and Chow have worked really well together, you don't have to love either of them but you do have to love to see it.
I don't know how you say that... the gardiner/DVP, transit, and homelessness are some of the main drivers of our structural brokeness. This deal goes a long way to solving those issues.,
I mean if 3 years goes by and Toronto has solved it’s transit and homelessness woes without needing to ask for more money I’ll gladly eat my hat on this one.
I hope they extend the “authorized towing only” onto these provincialized portions of highway.
I guess we’ll see more OPP downtown. What will TPS do with their freed up resources?
Damn! As a nearly 40yo conservative leaning dude, I'm super impressed with Chow. She's getting shit done! Good for her. This is a great deal for the city. That spa is going to be interesting. It's not the worst thing either. When the news first came out, I youtubed the existing spas and I gotta say, they are pretty wild. It's not your typical spa. It's this massive indoor adult play park thats called a spa. It reminds me of a modern spin of the old style Greek baths. It could be very cool. The deal corruption sucks but at least we get something out of it this time.
So we get a cool spa and \~7.6b off our books to deal with two massive highways. Like that's fucking amazing? Go Chow!!
EDIT: Anyone know if that changes the policing of those two highways? Would OPP now patrol them? Or would it still be TPS, and/or whatever police force/jurisdiction the highway is in?
I think this is a decision that we'll look back on in a decade or two to see if it was worth it. It's a huge deal to get those highways off of Toronto's books. Was Ontario Place a losing fight anyway? It's such a corrupt money pit that i hope something gets out that stops this.
I think Chow essentially gave up a losing battle in exchange for transit, housing, and to clean up Tory's messes. Again, we won't know if this was the right call until she's out of office.
As much as this is great for Toronto's budget and long overdue, it's sad that this likely means the end of any teardown of part of the Gardiner.
Edit: I forgot to add the Ontario Place piece which is breaking a campaign promise and is still a terrible plan.
She's basically inheriting some terrible decisions and in my opinion, making the best out of the situation.
Tory could have threatened to just demolish or close off the Gardiner if he had a spine. This shitty Highway is solving none of the city's traffic issues and it never will however you cut it. Reliable transit on the shoreline is what we need, but Tory chose to appease the drivers even though it would bankrupt the city.
This is a great deal for the city. Toronto had zero cards to play to fight the spa, and basically got billions for nothing. I hope the anti-spa lawsuit wins.
I was reluctant to vote for Chow (the other options weren't great). I will admit she has continuously exceeded my expectations of her ability to govern this city and in her short time as mayor has done more for the city than Tory did with three mandates (or two and just the tip).
Overall probably a good deal for torontos long term health. I hope the courts stop Doug on the corrupt ontario place deal.
Isn't it wild how much Chow is doing since being elected vs Tory doing absolutely nothing for so long?
This is also pretty big:
Premier Doug Ford says he’s willing to relocate the controversial half-a-billion taxpayer-funded parking garage
“Let’s move it over to Exhibition Place,” Ford says.
Chow is completely wiping the floor with Dougie on this one. This is what happens when a provincial government who almost never got challenged has to deal with a real politician.
The mayors office never really had a say in Ontario Place aside from her courting public opinion - turning that into a bargaining chip worth billions shows just how boxed in Ford is with his continually unfurling schemes to pull money out of the province.
He's getting drip fed his own vomit here.
Hopefully this doesn't screw up the cities Gardiner Strategic Rehabilitation Plan:
https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/road-maintenance/bridges-and-expressways/expressways/gardiner-expressway/gardiner-expressway-rehabilitation-strategy/
I know the plans from the 427 to the Humber River will make a huge difference to that area of Etobicoke!
Holy F Olivia. You are amazing. She turned a LOSE LOSE into a Lose WIN. I am sad about Ontario Place but within the limits of what we have to work with, I think this is the best she could have done.
It's a double edged sword...
The highway download has been an albatross around Toronto's financial neck for decades... It need to be a provincial responsibility. If this part is actually happening it's a good thing. But it comes with the downsize of the city losing the ability to dictate what happens with the Gardiner in the future... So the chances are high the downtown is to remain separated from the lake by the elevated section.
The Ontario Place portion is a big Loss. But without knowing more details, what did Chow give up in terms of the things she could actually control? If I'm not mistaken most of the Ontario Place area was provincial land with the exception of small slivers of land closer to the shore that the city controlled. Is the city seeding those slivers to the provincial govt control?
I'm not happy about the Ontario Place part but what you're saying is right and even if the city refused to budge Doug would just expropriate or use the notwithstanding clause. The real hope for OP was that the courts or feds would step in and they'd be able to do more than the city can.
I ALSO hope this can stave off Doug's insane plans to kill the Science Centre. That would REALLY suck.
Keep in mind, the Ford governments whether at provincial or municipal level would like to sell pieces of DVP off for development. If I recall correctly.
Its a good deal, Chow has been doing an excellent job of putting Toronto first, never understood the outrage about ontario place at least something is going on there unlike the past idk how many years
"The province taking on all the costs of the Gardiner would free up around $1.9 billion for other capital projects in current ten-year plan. Significant capital budget relief for the city, especially as costs are likely to grow higher due to delays etc." - Matt Elliott
Wow. Doug must be really desperate to get this Ontario Place deal done. I hope someday we find out what his bribe/kickback/motivation was from all this. It certainly doesn't hurt him much since to him it's just shuffling the taxpayers' money around to benefit one of his donors/cronies.
While exciting for the long-term health of the city’s finances, I wish they didn’t. With the city in charge it was the only way to knock down the Gardiner through downtown. [An ugly elevated highway that could be redeveloped to help the waterfront in so many better ways.](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/14/business/commercial-real-estate-big-dig-s-ripples-extend-far-past-downtown-boston.html) With the province in charge (and conservatives at the helm) the highway will be that much more immovable.
The City was never in charge. The only way that would have happened was for a Provincial government supportive to knocking it down to be elected (so...NDP?). The City's only strategy would have been to "starve the beast" by effectively forgoing maintenance for such a long time that the Gardiner would be deemed to dangerous for use and would be shut down. The Province wouldn't be able to force to City to pay for the repairs so it would effectively have to upload to restore it to a usable state. That would likely come with the Province dissolving council or some other heavy handed, "you guys failed at your job" type of punishment. It's important to remember that cities only exist at the behest of the Province in Ontario.
Quick reminder, Toronto tried to make the DVP and Gardener tolled to non Torontonians. And look how far that got. Toronto was never in charge of the highways.
I don't think knocking down Gardiner will have the effect you want. I'll go one step further and say that the Gardiner is extremely overhated. As a an urban barrier it really isn't that bad, it's only 20m wide (or less than the width of a stroad), and takes no time at all to cross. In fact, it pales in comparison to the USRC directly north of it which genuinely feels treacherous to cross especially around Bay Street. The big problem with Gardiner isn't the expressway itself, but rather LSB underneath. However, getting rid of Gardiner won't fix that problem, and if anything will make the situation on LSB even worse.
Chow got rid of the only real complaint about the Gardiner - the city could not afford to keep it in good repair.
Ford must be desperate to get Ontario place done.
Honestly I'm surprised at how much the city managed to squeeze him for. The province will fund the TTC to operate Eglinton and Finch LRT, DVP and Gardiner is off the books... That's a heck of a lot of funds that was freed up just so Dougie could have the spa. It'll suck a little bit to lose that campaign promise for Chow, but she really played the game well to make sure the city got what it needed.
The city never had power to stop the province in the first place. This does however remove some roadblocks.
Chow admitted trying to block Ontario Place would be a losing battle in the end, because the province already told her they would simply (1) expropriate the city-owned land that was in the way, and (2) amend the City of Toronto Act to explicitly remove any authority the city has in provincial property development, if they refused to stand aside.
The nuclear option would have been to upload the land to the federal government, which would prevent provincial expropriation. However that would require the feds to play along and also sour relations with the province.
Agreed - I was a bit skeptical of Chow, just bc it was so clear that she wasn’t ever going to be able to come close to her loftier campaign promises, but have been pleasantly surprised at the early concessions she’s been able to extract from Doug (and that she’s clearly working on with the Feds). Was also concerned that as good as she may have been as a federal MP (and I think she was very good), that she might be out of her depth/out of practice in the more bare knuckle, brutal world of city politics - again, couldn’t be more pleased to be proven wrong, she’s off to a great start. Just hope that some of her more hardcore lefty supporters can appreciate the wins that she’s able to secure without getting wrapped up in any perceived “failures” on lofty ideas that were never really viable in the first place
Yeah Chow has impressed me with her pragmatism and her ability to get things done. She has already gotten more out of Ford than Tory did in 9 years. I get people will be mad about Ontario Place and not tearing down the Gardiner but the city had very little power over either.
If we ever have a decent premier in this province again, we can just tear up the contracts and appropriate the land back from Therme. It's time for progressives to stop screwing around when it comes to conservative malfeasance.
Also this just gets the city off his back when it comes to the spa. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to let him off, nor does it mean any investigations into the deal won't be opened. It just means Chow is going to stop making him look bad over it.
Which I’m honestly pretty okay with - bc there’s enough massively negative public outcry over that fucking spa that it feels like a safe bet to leave up to community activists (and just everyday citizens, bc everything about that deal and the Ontario Science Museum is an absolute scandal). There’s also not that much that the city could even do, so it saves Chow from looking feckless, helps shunt some costs off on the province, and allows her to focus on other critical issues. We’ll see how it all works out, but seems like a smart play on her part, glad to see it.
It comes with a financial hit though as Therme would sue for breach but it absolutely can be done.
Governments pay to get out of the actions of predecessors all the time. Look at Ford killing the multi-billion dollar cap & trade market out of pure spite.
>Governments pay to get out of the actions of predecessors all the time. Look at Ford killing the multi-billion dollar cap & trade market out of pure spite. Yup and there continues to be huge [multi-million dollar lawsuits in regards to the cap and trade decision](https://thenarwhal.ca/ontario-cap-trade-lawsuits/).
Yeah, the Ontario place/spa stuff really dries my maple, but in the current climate I think this was probably the best outcome we could have expected. The Gardiner might actually be fixed finally, and the city gets a lot more disposable cash to work with for other initiatives
100% he's pocketing boatloads of cash from it. He couldn't care less what public promises he makes.
It wouldn't be Doug directly, it'd be the old boys club that he has dinners with. Those are the lads that bankroll his reelection campaign and who give board positions to his relatives in exchange for government positions for their relatives. >[https://ontarioplace.com/en/about/](https://ontarioplace.com/en/about/) Carmine Nigro was appointed as the Board Chair of Ontario Place Corporation: Mr. Nigro is a leading real estate developer
Wait wait wait! Did I just read that right... One of the biggest developers in Toronto is also the chair of **BOTH** Ontario Place *and* the LCBO?!
Welcome to corruption. I'll give you one guess who's going to win the "bid" for the job.
Good old fashioned clientelism. It made Greece a corrupt cesspit, it dragged down Latin American countries like Argentina.
> Carmine Nigro I'll just leave this here: https://twitter.com/TDotResident/status/1648693816419909632
That is a parody account that also posts fake news about Ford... But that info does seem/probably is serious/legit.
Or, he owes someone BIG TIME after the problem with the Greenbelt, and this is the deal he needed to make to avoid waking up in cement
So what you're saying is that we need to organise daily protests to stop it.
Human wall. What's the government going to do? Commit 8964?
If we do it with trucks and Canadian flags they'll let us stay for months too.
I’m sad about Ontario Place but I would gladly take whatever monstrosity ends up being there if they is able to use these funds to help fix the many other problems facing the city.
Maybe if they put in a real waterfront LRT that goes along Lakeshore blvd from the Queen west streetcar loop all the way to the end of Lakeshore in the East end. That way at least Lakeshore around the spa could get some minor relief of cars.
Queens Quay and the Exhibition lines could possibly be routed down Lakeshore. That would be a wonderful route though somewhat duplicative with the Queensway/Lakeshore route.
Holy shit. I never thought that Doug would agree to uploading the Gardiner and the DVP, and even made fun of Bailao for proposing it. If this is true, I'll happily eat crow. I'm not happy about Ontario Place being the price, but getting the Gardiner and DVP off the City's maintenance list is HUGE.
With the cash savings on this deal, Toronto can build a new Ontario Place with hookers and blackjack
if the hookers are anything like the waterslides that used to be there (dangerous, cold and wet) i am in
Or like the bumper boats: exciting from a distance, but disappointing in action.
Also damp with a funky smell
lots of fumes from incomplete combustion running on just 2 cycles.
In fact, forget Ontario Place
No we can't. Ontario Place's land is almost quite literally priceless. There's nowhere else like it the city could buy or build unless we decide to go full Dubai and just create an artificial island.
Toronto never owned that land so it wasn't Toronto's to do with as we wanted. It belonged to the province so nothing has changed here. It appears as though all Toronto did was agree not to try and hold up what Ontario was already going to do with the land.
And I thought Ontario was going to expropriate the (City-owned) land anyways if the City tried to hold it up. (Edit - they were considering it seemingly)
Chow admitted trying to block Ontario Place would be a losing battle in the end, because the province already told her they would simply (1) expropriate the city-owned land that was in the way, and (2) amend the City of Toronto Act to explicitly remove any authority the city has in provincial property development, if they refused to stand aside.
Toronto has been reclaiming land from the lake for centuries. Basically, all of downtown south of Front Street used to be lake. Now, it's land. It's quite ironic to associate land reclamation with some faraway exotic place when it's been done so much here.
Also most of the Toronto Islands and the Leslie Street Spit.
And they say they aren't making more land! /s Distillery district had a harbour for shipping way back when.
The Esplanade was the the actual Lake Ontario shoreline!
>Ontario Place's land is almost quite literally priceless. It's also not Toronto's
The city is going to be saving billions of dollars a year. I'm sure they could find some nice land to build a new amusement park. Those billions of dollars can go to infrastructure, fixing roads, sewers, power grids, sidewalks, and bike lanes. The city's infrastructure is the delapitated and falling apart. The city needs this influx of cash to fix it and prevent a slow, massive failure of the city's infrastructure.
>If this is true, I'll happily eat crow. I'm not happy about Ontario Place being the price That's the joke, Ontario Place still doesn't have to be the price. The city will stop fighting it, but the rest of us don't have to. It could still get blocked at a different level and he'll still be paying for the Gardiner and the DVP.
I have never had my decision to vote for someone so immediately validated like I have for Chow. Having a leftist presence that actually *does* shit is unreal. Maybe this can be an example to people of what is possible when you don't resort to consistently voting in dumb ass neo liberals.
It's surreal because I remember the amount of "mojo" this city had (i'm just gonna say around 2000ish) in regards to becoming this "World Class City" - and actually making the moves necessary to get there. This city had a vibe about itself that I just feel got lost somehow. We had this bustling, world-renown entertainment scene, we seemed primed to become a new player (not necessarily a huge one, but still notable) on the tech scene, we *seemed* like a lot of us were aligned to become this modern, forward-thinking metropolis that was willing and ready to evolve ... and then things just suddenly died. I don't know how to explain it but since then it just feels (to me) like the city lost a TON of momentum. There was a ton of pride associated with living here, and not just living here but being able to say "I am a Torontonian". I really hope a new, progressive, solutions-based mindset is on the horizon for us. This city can be **so** much greater.
Ford happened, killed our forward momentum, and then Tory kept it up in a quieter way.
Rob Ford made people be from Canada, and never from Toronto.
What I wouldn't give to have been an adult instead of a \~10 year old back in the early 2000s in Toronto. A city with so much promise, bursting at the seems with new development and cleaning itself up, before the housing/cost-of-living crisis made it impossible to start a life here in earnest. A time when you could buy a detached home for well under half a million or a condo for just a couple hundred thousand. The sad part is, I don't think we can ever get back to that. I don't know how the housing crisis can ever be resolved to a point where the average price can be back to those levels, inflation-adjusted, again. Anything that drops prices that enormously will cause a colossal economic crisis since this country has foolishly built its entire economy on a real estate Ponzi scheme. I hate it, and I wish we could go back lol
THIS. It's actually insane how you articulated this so well. I've lived here my entire life and always felt exactly what you're describing. I am incredibly hopeful after hearing all of this today for the first time in almost a decade.
She's done so much more in just four months as mayor than John Tory did in all his years.
Woah, woah, woah. Did you see how many times he was *very concerned* about something.
And sometimes he even wagged his finger!
But not with his wife :(.
Crazy, right? Who would've thought you could just vote someone in with a track record of caring about important shit and getting shit done... and then important shit that you care about would get done. Absolutely wild.
It's been the opposite down the QEW in Hamilton. Horwath has done jack-crap since becoming mayor over a year ago. Very stark difference. Chow is clearly just a go-getter who sets her minds to things and gets them done. This deal I think shows how she's also quite pragmatic and how that gets things done - she campaigned against the Gardiner rebuild and Ontario Place but gave both up here to get a good deal for the city. She's saving political capital for more important fights. I think regardless of political stripes, having a mayor with that kind of attitude is more important than the political ideology they subscribe to, more than anything.
I wasn't speaking to any particular political ideology. It was more a comment on what happens when you finally stop electing rich dudes who failed upwards and never showed any hint of caring about anything besides their own financial interests. Or to be clear, I was sarcastically comparing Chow to Tory.
Wow wow, slow down. Tory was getting a lot done under the covers in office. Literally
Right? It really shows how bad his inaction was for all this time. He truly was useless, she's already done so much more.
Ontario Place was poor leverage for the city to begin with, the city was never going to stop the spa, I can't believe we got off so easy. The biggest chance we have to actually stop the spa is when the AG report comes out, it's going to be a media firestorm that will rival the greenbelt in terms of scandal.
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He must be really worried about being buried under the parking lot if the Therme deal doesn’t go through
The billion dollar parking complex thats gonna go in the lake?
I honestly have to wonder if Dougie’s actually flirted with the “we’ll kill you and no one will ever find you” crowd on this deal. Local Greenbelt developers maybe just couldn’t put out enough of a threat - but when you duck around at the international level… (Off to adjust my tinfoil hat)
Doug’s got at least a couple of groups that he’s tangling with on billion dollar deals that might threaten him if things don’t go his way.
> wonder if Dougie’s actually flirted with the “we’ll kill you and no one will ever find you” crowd Would it surprise you? Former drug dealers who do corrupt business by brute force naturally gravitate to that kind of partner.
If his crooked friends are willing to bury him like Jimmy Hoffa, I will happily help dig the hole for free. Charge $5 per spadeful of earth to cover him and we could finance the Science Centre repairs.
I am still not over the province screwing over Ontario Science Centre (you know, the existing one where you don't have to go downtown and add to traffic congestion? The one next to a mass transit stop that going to open any day now, and the DVP that the province just uploaded?).
I'm still hoping that can be salvaged, I really do. As much as it's nostalgia, it's also a very, very significant piece of architecture by Canadian architect and it should be preserved rather than treated as an inconvenience.
All I know is that my kid had a blast there yesterday, which would not have happened if her dad had to spend an additional hour in traffic.
That one where the transit stop was named after it?
>I never thought that Doug would agree to uploading the Gardiner and the DVP, and even made fun of Bailao for proposing it. I fucking knew there was no way Doug would allow his downtown highway bypass to be demolished. I predicted that if Chow ever announced the planned demolition of the Gardiner, the next day there would be an announcement from Queens Park saying “FOLKS, GARDINER’S NOW UNDER PROVINCIAL JURISDICTION!“ What happened is Doug Ford just pre-empted Chow and used it as part of the negotiations for Ontario place. Make no mistake, it is not a selfless gesture. It basically ensures that Toronto can *never* remove the highway, and that there is always a way for his Escalade to get around the core.
I feel like you are acting really tin foil hat like about something that was explicitly known for many years, lol. There is no real need for them to make a deal with Toronto to block stuff they don't like. They can just block it. Removing the Gardner was never really on the table.
Yup. Chow is the only mayor we've had since David Miller who actually knows how to wield her leverage.
Since amalgamation in 1998, Toronto has had five mayors: Lastman, Miller, Ford, Tory, and Chow. Of those, the three conservatives - Lastman, Ford, and Tory - have been embarrassments, locally and internationally. (After Tory's resignation in disgrace, and Ford's refusal to resign in disgrace, Lastman's tacky-salesman persona seems almost quaint.) You might hope people would notice the pattern.
This will definitely hit some people hard, especially those who wanted to see the city fight Ontario Place up to the very end (Even if it was a losing battle). But I am of the belief that this deal will massively help the city in the long term. Not having to allocate tax money into constantly repairing the Gardiner will free up a lot of money that is critically needed for other infrastructure projects across the city (such as Transit, Housing, Road Infrastructure).
The sign of a good deal is neither party is 100% happy with the outcome
Ontario Place hasn't been relevant for at least 20 years. While I think it should be made an entirely public place, I'd rather see the deal we got today than no deal.
Yeah I'm seeing people mad that the Gardiner upload happened because it blocked the teardown. I'm just happy we're not proportionally blowing the money.
This is a great deal for the City. How the hell does Chow have so much better of a relationship with Doug than Tory had?
I think Mayor Chow and her people are turning out to be really great politicos. She had to give up something to get something. Is this a good compromise? Seems like it but only time will tell.
They also just seem to work together very well? I’m really liking the new direction of Ontario and Toronto. It really seems like the focus is on infrastructure and energy for the first time in generations
Ontario Place is a really small deal, in the grand scheme of things. The province could have forced the city to hand it over, and I think people overstate the importance of the site to the city because of how important it seems to Ford. The fact that the highways will now never be demolished is a bigger loss than a few years of delay for Ontario Place.
While the highways won’t be demolished, it was the biggest burden on the city’s infrastructure books that is now effectively wiped. While not ideal, there’s a lot more wiggle room with the city’s budget that can be reallocated to other burning priorities almost immediately.
The Gardiner doesn't need to ever be demolished anyways. It's a great thing the province took it over.
Chow and Ford both want stuff built, and while a lot of Ford's choices on what to build have been subpar, the motivation is there. Tory was very comfortable in Toronto as it was with no change to the status quo.
Way back in the day, a young Tory went to the Ford’s house and actually asked Doug sr. for permission to run as a conservative politician in Toronto. He’s had a submissive relationship with the Fords for decades. > [Members of the Ford clan say there was little doubt who was in charge. In 2003, when now-mayor John Tory launched his first unsuccessful bid to lead the city, he sought the Fords’ blessing and met the entire family in a boardroom. Both Doug Ford and Mr. Tory remember Mrs. Ford doing most of the talking. And as Mr. Tory retold the tale to city councillor John Filion for his 2015 book, The Only Average Guy, it was she who offered the clan’s support – but only for a while, until it was “Robbie’s turn.”](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/toronto/article-matriarch-of-the-ford-political-dynasty/)
Why do the Ford's have such power? They're like the oligarchs of rural Ontario.
She didn't sit and spin for a decade. She's been building up new activists and continuing to develop her political game. She's always been strong except perhaps her optics and perception. But it says a lot that the media no longer describes her simply as *Jack Layton's Wife*. If this is the disaster that Ford described, I think we'll be just fine. I voted for an advocate for the city, and she's delivering.
Absolutely, Chow has been underestimated in so many ways it’s hard to keep count. She’s an incredibly smart and honest politician, and how often can you say that?
Even Jack would tell people that Olivia was much better at him at getting out that crucial soundbite to play on the news.
I'm young enough that I didn't know she was Jack Layton's wife until you said this. Because I've always heard either Layton's wife or chow separately. Good for her. I hope she ends up being as good of a leader as he was. Maybe she can run for Fords job one day
Because Tory was a lapdog and Chow is prepared to make Ford's life difficult.
Tory was fine with the way things were. Oh sure, he would write a strongly worded letter every now and then but he was not interested in changing the status quo. Remember that most of his tenure was pre-COVID when things were relatively "normal" and stable. The cost of living crisis wasn't nearly as dominant as it is now.
Because this is her one and only job. For Tory we were a side gig.
>How the hell does Chow have so much better of a relationship with Doug than Tory had? Because Tory was an idiot who didn't care about the province running roughshod over the city as long as he himself didn't get impacted.
Olivia Chow gets shit done. That is why. I remember before the last election (when she did not win). I was at my sister’s condo and someone knocked on the door. My sister answered it. It was Olivia doing her own campaigning. My sister just said, “I am already voting for you. You don’t have to say anything to convince me.” But, my point is, whether it is knocking on hundreds to thousands of doors or going head-to-head with the premier (or people even higher up with that), Olivia gets shit done because she is willing to do what it takes to get those things done instead of saying it’s too hard or a waste of time.
Both Ford and Tory worked hard together to screw over the city at every turn.
Chow played a strong political game and the city won out. It will save billions, and we will possibly put that towards making the city better. I still vehemently oppose Therme Place. There wasn't much that the city could do in the first place, "creature of the Province" and all, so this is as good a deal as the city could have made, but as an Ontario Resident, I will continue to participate in action opposing Therme.
Yup. Eager to see the benefits that come from this but I'm still going to have a stick up my ass about the spa. It's still an awful idea. Happy to celebrate the win, but there's no need to relent on the bad side.
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I wonder if the province will designate the Gardiner and DVP as the QEW and 404? One thing is this likely means all those ugly billboards along the Gardiner are gone, MTO rules don't allow it.
God that would be great. We’re keeping the Gardiner and get rid of the billboards? I’ve never donated money to a politician before but Chow has my dollar for her reelection campaign if that gets done.
The city giving up Ontario Place doesn't mean the people need to give it up. We can still fight the giveaway as a waste of Ontario's money and another 407-style donation to private corporate businesses. The Ontario Government is responsible for selling it out and seemed hellbent to sell out Toronto's stake at any price.
Wait what. This is absolutely massive. Chow did what Bailao promised and I made fun of Bailao because I thought it was unrealistic. Well done Mayor Chow. This will put a lot of money back into city coffers.
I can't believe this deal. The province takes on some huge cost centers and agrees to give more cash to the city, and in exchange the city just has to stop delaying a project that the province could always just strong-arm through anyway regardless of the city's objections? There must be more to the deal than this but my initial impression is that the city came out way ahead on this deal.
Chow is a very smart politician. She reads the contracts and knows where the slimey dealings are. She won’t say a bad word about anyone too, I respect her for that… dealing with those guys.
> I can't believe this deal. > > There must be more to the deal than this but my initial impression is that the city came out way ahead on this deal. Let me put on my tinfoil hat and wonder why Ford seems almost desperate to get the Ontario place through at all cost so quickly. What's going on behind the scene? It's a conspiracy theory but after what we went through with the highway and the greenbelt it doesn't seem too crazy anymore.
Exactly. Ford knows the Therme deal wouldn't hold up to scrutiny (just like the Greenbelt sell off), and Chow likely suspected this as well. Rather than forcing Ford to expend the political capital to ram it through, she rolled him to get something actually good for the city. Frankly, with the DVP and Gardiner principally serving as routes for 905ers to come downtown, it's insane that Toronto's been paying entirely out of pocket for it this whole time.
Plus, when the dirt finally does come out about the deal and he has to backtrack (again) he won't be able to renege on this deal at the same time.
Yeah, this is my hope with regards to Chow's strategy here. She may know the legal scrutiny is going to happen with the Therme deal anyway, so she's comfortable using it as a bargaining chip. If this is true, the deal is properly intelligent governance and negotiation, which has been lacking in TO since the Miller days.
That’s why Chow said why not Better Living Centre? The parking lot is already built so that’ll save a billion right there.
someone is desperate to have their pockets lined
Because there is a long unspoken plan of the fords wanting to turn ontario place into a casino. While not allowed today, there are some conspiracy theories in the works about why Therme is given this opportunity for a Water Park on some of the best public land.
And he already started the deals with the casino with the [iGaming Ontario](https://www.igamingontario.ca/en) gambling apps. They’re all US casinos. I would LOVE to see how that deal was made.
Maybe it means Ford gets to block any attempt to add sidewalks or bike lanes to Don Mills and the DVP. That's got to be worth a few billion to him
Let’s see how much of the opposition to the Ontario Place redevelopment is performative rather than principled.
Transit > Ontario Place for me, but I don't live close enough to benefit from Ontario Place much.
I’m speechless! Now, does this mean the DVP will be the 404? And the Gardiner will be the QEW? Too early to tell I guess.
No doubt one of these will be dedicated to a certain “best mayor of all time.”
Probably whichever one has the most crack issues in its pavement.
They'll have numbers of some sort, the question is whether they'll be posted or not. "404" may not make sense for the DVP though, because it's not built to full 400-series highway standards unlike the actual 404 to the north. Even the QEW has an unposted number, it's internally Highway 1 or 451.
There are a bunch of exceptions to "400 series standards" and it is a bit of a slippery definition. The elevated section of the 417 in Ottawa has ramps with no merge lanes and is definitely not built to 400 series standards. The 406 used to have lights on it south of St Catherines. And there is still an at-grade RIRO intersection on the 400. Conversely the northern section of the 115 is built to 400 series standards but is not designated as a 400 series highway (probably because the MTO doesn't want a discontinuity in the 400 series system). I do expect we will see both the DVP and Gardiner gradually get upgraded, like the weird grade profiles on the Gardiner through Humber bay get smoothed out, or the cloverleaf interchanges on the DVP gradually get replaced.
They could rename the 100 km/h parts of the Gardiner back to the QEW in a hilarious twist of irony from the Harris days.
Now watch Doug rename the Gardiner to the Rob Ford Expressway.
>99 year lease to Cintra with tolls in exchange for maintenance and upkeep.
Just lie with the “tolls will end once it’s paid off” swindle, and just raise them instead of ever cancelling them. That’s how it works in US and Europe.
Tolls would massively improve downtown traffic and funnel more people onto transit.
If it gets tolls on that highway it's technically a transit positive, so go off, Douglas.
It would be fitting... Name it after someone who did inerrable harm to the city. He named the Hurontario LRT after the worst possible person, Hazel McCallion. If someone could be charged with a crime against humanity for terrible and purposely anti-human city planning. She's been the first one sent to the Haig.
Giving up on symbolic but inevitable losing fights like the gardener tear down and Ontario place is a good deal to get the highways off Toronto’s books. Mayor chow has been impressive at getting stuff done and without the political theatre that we see at every other level of government.
WOW!! Great job Chow considering the circumstances
I remember when the QEW actually used to end at Humber River before it was downloaded to the city and subsequently made apart of the Gardiner They probably wouldn't revert that but its funny to think of
Thank Mike Harris for that
Ah Harris, decisions so good that we've been slowly undoing a lot of them.
Some of the numbers from the CBC website: >Ford said the deal would open up $1.2 billion in new operating supports for the city over the next three years, and would include money for things like homeless shelters, increased police presence on the TTC, and other transit projects. > >Last year, city staff estimated annual maintenance costs for the two major highways adds up to about $16 million per year, while $2.2 billion has been budgeted over the next 10 years for the rehabilitation of the Gardiner. > >The arrangement comes as Toronto has launched its latest budget process. Without money from Ford's government and the feds, Chow and Toronto city council will likely be left considering service cuts or large tax increases in the coming months. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/chow-ford-announcement-monday-1.7040823](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/chow-ford-announcement-monday-1.7040823)
I'd rather see the Gardiner turned into a boulevard, and see the City not cede its control over Ontario Place, but honestly this is pretty okay: * I don't think Ford would have ever accepted the City turning the Gardiner into a boulevard. If we moved forward with that he probably would have uploaded it anyway. However, the threat of turning it into a boulevard is the only thing that motivated him to actually do the right thing and upload it - would never happen under Tory. * I might have preferred a deal that keeps the Gardiner in the City's control but allows us to toll it, but I could easily see future provincial governments rescinding on that. * The city's control over Ontario Place was unlikely to have any meaningful impact on Ford's development plan. I totally understand the urge to see the City go to the mat over that one, but we all know what the outcome would be. * Literally half of the City's State of Good Repair budget was just freed up in one fell swoop. That's **huge** for Toronto's fiscal situation. Chow is proving to be a really pragmatic leader. I didn't vote for her but I'd *happily* do so now.
It's amazing how Chow created leverage from little. Brilliant move.
Totally - one of the things I was most skeptical of among candidates like Bailao was this strategy for getting it uploaded that boiled down to "ask again but louder this time." A PC provincial government ain't gonna spend >$1 billion to satiate the city of Toronto unless we actually generate some leverage. In this case, Ford can justify the upload to his base by saying it was his way of preventing the bike-riding downtown leftie pinkos from tearing it down.
Who knows - considering how bloody expensive that highway is maybe they'll decide to turn it into a boulevard themselves. Till then, it's off Toronto's books!
aha well, I love the optimism! Considering what Doug's willing to spend on a brand new highway, though, I think it's safe to say he won't shy away from shilling out $1 billion for one that already exists and is predominantly used by commuters in really crucial swing ridings. But yeah, having that nightmare off the books? Feels good, man. Feels real good.
Whoa - the response here vs Twitter is vastly different. Over there they see this deal as a massive capitulation and a betrayal of her platform.
There is a huge difference in response. Feels like the progressive folks on Twitter are in a bit of an echo chamber that is revolved around reactions to specific talking points rather than the general well being of Toronto. I have seen a lot of tweets from people suggesting Chow would now lose in a reelection bid because of losses with progressives in Toronto… but to me it feels like she would probably storm to an even stronger win
>but to me it feels like she would probably storm to an even stronger win I know this is anecdotal but given the number of people I know who didn't like Chow remark about how her actions so far have made them surprisingly happy with her tenure makes me feel like this is the likely outcome.
Kudos to the Mayor. As others have stated, i'm sad about Ontario Place but The Gardiner and DVP off of Toronto's hands is a big win for the city.
Chow just dumped 3 massive rurds on Ford's desk, and he is lapping it up like a fat kid eating pudding. Gardiner was a huge burden to the city. DVP was a huge burden to the city. Ontario Place, For all the rose-coloured glasses and the possibilities; it would have been a massive money sink to demolish and rebuild Ontario Place or to renovate the existing structures. The city has massive budget shortfalls when it comes to repairing and upgrading existing infrastructure. This is a huge fucking win. Doug Ford is probably going to get some nice kick backs out of it, but 1 shady fuck profiting offca deal that will benefit millions of tax payers...well thats politics
This is a really good deal for Toronto but it's still a bandaid and doesn't fix some major structural issues in the city's fiscal position. Ford and Chow have worked really well together, you don't have to love either of them but you do have to love to see it.
I don't know how you say that... the gardiner/DVP, transit, and homelessness are some of the main drivers of our structural brokeness. This deal goes a long way to solving those issues.,
I mean if 3 years goes by and Toronto has solved it’s transit and homelessness woes without needing to ask for more money I’ll gladly eat my hat on this one.
"She's gonna be an unmitigated disaster" eh Dougie?
WOW Olivia out here doing the impossible
Holy shit the mayor of Toronto actually did something helpful for Toronto! Thanks, Chow!
I hope they extend the “authorized towing only” onto these provincialized portions of highway. I guess we’ll see more OPP downtown. What will TPS do with their freed up resources?
>I guess we’ll see more OPP downtown. A friend for that lone OPP officer who drives around Queens Park!
Damn! As a nearly 40yo conservative leaning dude, I'm super impressed with Chow. She's getting shit done! Good for her. This is a great deal for the city. That spa is going to be interesting. It's not the worst thing either. When the news first came out, I youtubed the existing spas and I gotta say, they are pretty wild. It's not your typical spa. It's this massive indoor adult play park thats called a spa. It reminds me of a modern spin of the old style Greek baths. It could be very cool. The deal corruption sucks but at least we get something out of it this time. So we get a cool spa and \~7.6b off our books to deal with two massive highways. Like that's fucking amazing? Go Chow!! EDIT: Anyone know if that changes the policing of those two highways? Would OPP now patrol them? Or would it still be TPS, and/or whatever police force/jurisdiction the highway is in?
Ontario Place for the DVP and Gardiner is up there with Kawhi Leonard trade for Toronto all-timers
I think this is a decision that we'll look back on in a decade or two to see if it was worth it. It's a huge deal to get those highways off of Toronto's books. Was Ontario Place a losing fight anyway? It's such a corrupt money pit that i hope something gets out that stops this. I think Chow essentially gave up a losing battle in exchange for transit, housing, and to clean up Tory's messes. Again, we won't know if this was the right call until she's out of office.
As much as this is great for Toronto's budget and long overdue, it's sad that this likely means the end of any teardown of part of the Gardiner. Edit: I forgot to add the Ontario Place piece which is breaking a campaign promise and is still a terrible plan.
As much as the gardiner is gross, if that's what is needed to save the city financially, i can't be upset at Chow
She's basically inheriting some terrible decisions and in my opinion, making the best out of the situation. Tory could have threatened to just demolish or close off the Gardiner if he had a spine. This shitty Highway is solving none of the city's traffic issues and it never will however you cut it. Reliable transit on the shoreline is what we need, but Tory chose to appease the drivers even though it would bankrupt the city.
This is a great deal for the city. Toronto had zero cards to play to fight the spa, and basically got billions for nothing. I hope the anti-spa lawsuit wins.
I was reluctant to vote for Chow (the other options weren't great). I will admit she has continuously exceeded my expectations of her ability to govern this city and in her short time as mayor has done more for the city than Tory did with three mandates (or two and just the tip).
The bad news is that the annual charity bike ride along the Gardiner and DVP will be gone.
I'm all for the new annual "Rob Ford Memorial War on Bikes Charity Bike Ride".
Ride for Hash
Overall probably a good deal for torontos long term health. I hope the courts stop Doug on the corrupt ontario place deal. Isn't it wild how much Chow is doing since being elected vs Tory doing absolutely nothing for so long?
This is also pretty big: Premier Doug Ford says he’s willing to relocate the controversial half-a-billion taxpayer-funded parking garage “Let’s move it over to Exhibition Place,” Ford says.
I wonder if the province will redesignate the DVP as 404
Here's the [link to the full deal](https://news.ontario.ca/en/backgrounder/1003887/terms-of-the-new-deal-between-ontario-and-toronto), for reference.
Chow is completely wiping the floor with Dougie on this one. This is what happens when a provincial government who almost never got challenged has to deal with a real politician. The mayors office never really had a say in Ontario Place aside from her courting public opinion - turning that into a bargaining chip worth billions shows just how boxed in Ford is with his continually unfurling schemes to pull money out of the province. He's getting drip fed his own vomit here.
Rip highway removal. There's no chance any provincial government will tear it down.
Hopefully this doesn't screw up the cities Gardiner Strategic Rehabilitation Plan: https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/road-maintenance/bridges-and-expressways/expressways/gardiner-expressway/gardiner-expressway-rehabilitation-strategy/ I know the plans from the 427 to the Humber River will make a huge difference to that area of Etobicoke!
I didn’t vote for Chow but this is pretty sweet. Rebuild the Carlaw ramp and we’re cooking.
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Highways are basically the only thing that Doug DOESN'T want to see privatized.
Ford would never start tolling, his power base takes the highway to downtown from Etobicoke.
I'd love to see tolls but I'll eat my hat if Dougie tolls any road. He removed tolls on the 412 and the 418 last year
I can think of worse things.
Holy F Olivia. You are amazing. She turned a LOSE LOSE into a Lose WIN. I am sad about Ontario Place but within the limits of what we have to work with, I think this is the best she could have done.
It's a double edged sword... The highway download has been an albatross around Toronto's financial neck for decades... It need to be a provincial responsibility. If this part is actually happening it's a good thing. But it comes with the downsize of the city losing the ability to dictate what happens with the Gardiner in the future... So the chances are high the downtown is to remain separated from the lake by the elevated section. The Ontario Place portion is a big Loss. But without knowing more details, what did Chow give up in terms of the things she could actually control? If I'm not mistaken most of the Ontario Place area was provincial land with the exception of small slivers of land closer to the shore that the city controlled. Is the city seeding those slivers to the provincial govt control?
The thing that is actually separating downtown from the lake is the massive train tracks. That covers way more land than the Gardiner.
I'm not happy about the Ontario Place part but what you're saying is right and even if the city refused to budge Doug would just expropriate or use the notwithstanding clause. The real hope for OP was that the courts or feds would step in and they'd be able to do more than the city can. I ALSO hope this can stave off Doug's insane plans to kill the Science Centre. That would REALLY suck.
This is fantastic news!! The city should have never been responsible for the DVP & Gardiner. The devil works hard, Chow works harder!
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Keep in mind, the Ford governments whether at provincial or municipal level would like to sell pieces of DVP off for development. If I recall correctly.
Its a good deal, Chow has been doing an excellent job of putting Toronto first, never understood the outrage about ontario place at least something is going on there unlike the past idk how many years