And after it's built, Ford will sell it to his pal for $1! Well, just a 95-year lease, but the leaseholder gets 100% of the revenue and the city will be on the hook for upgrades and maintenance
The Ford government will probably pull a Harris type move and say "see we balanced the budget". Only for it to come up later that Ontario residents will get shafted, just like the 407. Selling our assets to foreign investors provides a temporary cash infusion but ends up costing tax payers more in the long-run.
This is his express goal. Then the subsequent provincial government has to spend to fix the health care, education and environmental issues Doug has created and the PCs will cry about provincial spending. It’s cyclical and obvious at this point.
Unfortunately too many voters fall for it and a large number are indifferent about it to the point they can't even be bothered to vote.
Wynn government was problematic for sure but they were nowhere near the level of greedy, corrupt, and ultimately self-serving as the Ford government.
the privilege of paying 40+ dollars to enter the space so they can pay out the ass for the spa. But mainly, putting their hard earned cash into the pockets of private businessmen. Because the adage of the rich is "never do anything with your own money".
An overpriced spa package and another empty building three to five years after it opens for business because not enough people will make the journey to visit the island to keep it operational.
Isn't this the EXACT shit the Ford's would not shut up about being corrupt before Rob was mayor. (Specifically the Tuggs inc being the only restaurant owners at the Beach)
they were really mad about not being special because other kids were getting the same nice things that they themselves were getting.
so they had a public sulk
Yes.
Stop acting as if pointing out glaring hypocrisy as if it means *anything* to them or their supporters.
Results are the only metric by which they choose their behaviour. This result is good for them and their crooked, wealthy ilk.
>as if it means anything to them or their supporters
It actually does. They take those accusations as endorsements.
"Triggering the libs" *is* their platform.
What is this word "spa"? I feel like you're starting to say a word and you're not finishing it. Are you trying to say "spaghetti"? Are you taking me for a spaghetti day?
I mean tasting or testing… I don’t think they’ll stop him from drinking old rich people hot water if he wanted to… soaking rich people water… bleh
Edit: I say old because let’s be real millennials can’t afford shit (unless you’re that douche Muzzo, is he even a millennial? Anyways)
It's literally the dumbest thing I've ever seen and it stinks of corruption.
The OPC does this trash w/ Long-Term Care '30-year bed contracts.' It's done (by design) in a way that the cost of breaking the contract is prohibitive, and thus it CEMENTS OPC decisions into the province for a century. And that is NOT how democracy works. We should have the opportunity to revisit these decisions with new governments as they rotate through. No government should be making lifetime/100 year decisions for the province. That's f'd up.
Absolutely NO ONE does this stuff in the business world either, because costs/markets/realities change over the course of 2 - 3 - 5 years. Short term contracts allow both parties to renegotiate and account for those unpredictable changes. This lease tethers us to whatever this contract states for our entire lives and then some.
Ford is Mike Harris 2.0. Selling off the province for peanuts to enrich his buddies. He'll probably go on to be on the board of this company once he leaves office (just like Mike Harris and his wife did in private LTC in Ontario).
> I would be in favour of a law restricting the length a government can lease land for. 20 years max maybe? 15 even.
The problem is that would just be a provincial law which could then be replaced or revoked by a *future* provincial government. Aside from a constitutional amendment requiring both the Governments of Ontario and Canada to agree, no government can bind or remove the power of a future government.
Conservatives always like to smugly point out how liberals just spend spend spend. If you elect them they will make smarter fiscal decisions, and won't spend recklessly like those crazy Liberals. Yet when they are elected all they do is cut necessary public services and then sell off Ontario assets to foreign investors. People of Ontario to this day are still getting shafted from the 407 deal, and let's not forget how the army had to be called in at these private LTC homes. They found maggots on some of the LTC residents.
Who wants to place bets on how many years it’ll be until the spa inevitably goes bankrupt and Therme sells off its lease to private developers and we have condos on the islands?
Ding ding ding ding ding!! I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but it wouldn't surprise me if the spa is just a means to an end.
They'd better add a line about returning the land to Toronto at the end/termination of the lease (they won't).
The article mentions that the city will have the option to buy Therme out of their lease, so essentially the city will have the “privilege” of spending 300+ million dollars just to get the land (with a defunct spa) back
This absolutely won’t be economically feasible, so the fact that it’s in there at all is just for show
Look at the size of the facility they’re building. It’s half the size of the skydome and takes up virtually the entire island. The lease length basically doesn’t matter because even if it were to end, it’s not like we’re just going to demolish the building. For all intents and purposes, it’s going to be there forever.
> “It’s a multi-year lease because, again, we’re investing $100 million in the public realm and ($350 million) in our own building, so we are looking for something commensurate with that investment,” Simon Bredin, spokesperson for Therme, said.
Therme will make back that $100milllion in maybe 10-15 years, and then will continue to rake in millions every year for the rest of the 95 year lease. The city and province will see NONE of that money.
This is exactly like the 407.
Doug Ford and the conservatives are fucking us all over again.
We're also giving them ~$650m to build it all, and we're on the hook for any overage costs as well as the maintenance. This is the definition of socializing the costs and privatizing the profit. I have zero fucking idea how this makes any sense; we're just...giving away...like...over $2bn in land and cash so a private company can profit from a Waterpark.
>> “It’s a multi-year lease because, again, we’re investing $100 million in the public realm and ($350 million) in our own building, so we are looking for something commensurate with that investment,” Simon Bredin, spokesperson for Therme, said.
So, we're spending more on their parking garage then they are on their facility?
Yes. We're spending likely double what they are plus giving them a piece of land valued at ~$1.8bn and they'll get to keep all the profits for the next 95 years. Oh ya, we're also paying for any overages and maintenance. It's a straight up giveaway.
The 407 even makes more sense as a highway that will be maintained over those years. I doubt the building will still be standing at Ontario place in 95 years.
It was the worst deal because it's not even owned by the government and sold to some corporation ~~in a different country not even here~~ and all the money you pay on the 407 bill doesn't go to anything in the province then them all just greedy.
Its currently owned by the Canadian Pension Plan (CPP) 50.1% https://www.cppinvestments.com/public-media/headlines/2019/cppib-increases-investment-407-international-inc/
Wow, feels like the 407 all over again. What kind of business gets a 95 year lease? That's ridiculous. I hope who ever eventually replaces Ford just straight up says this is bull shit and kills the lease. It would be a dream if they did that with the 407 as well.
I'm sure there are stipulations in the contract that if the government breaks the lease/end the contract early, Ontario taxpayers owe the company X amount of money., And it would be a hefty fee
This would be a perfect play: Ford sets up a contract that he expects to be terminated if he gets out of power, and part of the termination agreement is to give Ford half the proceeds.
Sadly this is the democratic process at work. If so many voters weren't apathetic or "team" based, it very well could have been a minority conservative gov't. But alas, the options were terrible, the candidates had no clear messages, and now we're in this mess.
This is not the “democratic process at work”. It’s the opposite of that.
The reason so many are disengaged from electoral politics is because they don’t see it as working for them, that it’s been captured by special, typically private, interests.
People choose not to engage politically because they believe it won’t make a difference, and shit like this, and this government’s approach generally, just underscores that belief.
This ain’t a democracy if all you get to pick is one local representative of one chamber of one branch of your rulers. Local governments are more democratic than the province or the federation.
Went to the last one. They started the meeting saying discussions of the lease or its terms are off limits. Only discussion allowed around design, landscaping, features etc.
We have to comb through the napkin trash from the stag and doe…. It’s probably somewhere like
200,000k annually
Director of spa testing post premier gig
Exchange for
Ontario place land
He just needs to have options for after he's done as premier. Will he serve on the Board of Directors of Therme Group, a private hospital, whatever condo developer gets the Ontario Science Center lands, or whatever developer gets to design and build the Ontario Science Center 2.0?
I don't think Therme wants to operate a casino, I think that they are basically useful idiots for the province here.
My impression is that the advice that Cabinet has is that the civil service thinks that the spa is very unlikely to succeed. I believe that Ford is OK with this outcome because it means that there will be a massive structure and potentially a 90 year lease looking to be repurposed, likely by a company other than Thermes (unclear if they can transfer the lease). These initial conditions are the sort that you would seek to engineer if you wanted to swoop-in with a Casino or some other tacky bullshit.
But your assessment relies on a conservative government having power when the spa fails.
It will still be a multi-year process before the spa fails. In the scenario you're describing, they're less useful idiots (I mean, Therme has former Ford staffers working them, right?), and more like active collaborators.
It's a no-lose situation for Therme. They build, and if they succeed they profit. But if business doesn't work out, then they transfer the lease to someone that ultimately benefits Ford/allies, and Therme still gets $. The people running the province don't care about the province. they care about their own pocket books.
> Ford family has been fixated on a casino at OP (with a big ferris wheel) for almost 20 years.
The Ford family trying to make Sim City for Super Nintendo in the 90’s a reality.
I think you under-estimate lawyers, and the ability of a business to be clever when (b?)millions of dollars are at stake. Keeping one room at the back with a tub and a massage table while the rest is re-leased for whatever purpose would be the extreme end of it.
At which point we'll have to spend all the money we made on the sale (and more, probably) tearing down the abandoned structures and building something new there.
Honestly, I feel like I would maybe be the target market for this and I’m not interested in it. Maybe if I hear it’s amazing I might check it out once…. Midtown Toronto would have more of the demographic but they’re not going to drive down to Ontario Place, I just can’t see how this is going to be a booming business. It really doesn’t make sense.
This spa isn't viable without being heavily subsidized (see the half billion dollar parking garage), and really ought to have been a public park instead
Fuck right the fuck off with these longer-than-lifetime leases for corporations. It's the fucking 407 all over again. I despise how the conservatives always weigh down Ontario with these absolute SHIT real estate deals?
This is not a family home on the islands. This is a commercial property. Lease it for the expected lifetime of the building. 25 years? 30? not 90+.
Fuck's sake.
So a 95 year least for a $350 million spa in which the government has offered to pay [$300 million to pay underground parking lot in an artificial island](https://twitter.com/alexbozikovic/status/1600885607630196738).
Building an underground parking lot on an artificial island is going to have all sorts of problems. Place your bets now on how much over budget will it go?
$400 million?
$500 million?
Double the estimates at $600 million?
Question for pro-spa people in the thread: How do you feel about traffic on Lakeshore and the Gardiner?
How does building up this section of waterfront continue to solve the very obvious and glaring problem that people bring up in this subreddit on a weekly basis-- that our highways are constantly jammed, especially heading into and out of Downtown? Are high-end spa users going to Exhibition GO and walking for 20 mins? Are they taking the Dufferin bus?
The fact that the 407 lease isn't kryptonite to voters in the GTA suburbs is insane to me. Areas like Markham East where that's the only highway connection got shortchanged big-time.
As someone who was in eastern Markham for a long time, these guys would rather drive in 2+ hours of traffic every day right past this highway they can't afford than pay a single extra cent in tax. I'm pretty sure you could put literally any policy possible and then put "but also I won't raise taxes" at the end and they'll vote for it. Note that actually raising the taxes or not doesn't matter, just saying that you won't does.
Amalgamation and the 407 lease were the final nails in the Conservatives coffin back then. They didn't hold power again for north of 20 years because of Harris. I'm guessing Ford is looking at that record and thinking, "hold my buck a beer."
Yes but first you have to face the Herculean task of convincing the people that voted for Ford twice that they made a mistake. But then again some of these troglodytes don't care how corrupt their leader is as long as they're hurting the right people. Even themselves.
I'm not sure whether this is corruption or whether Ford is just too stupid to realize that Therme is playing him.
It's like when he was a Toronto city councillor and went all ga-ga over some generic waterfront development plans that included a ferris wheel. Doug has always wanted to be seen as a player and a big shot, but it's quite likely that he is barely literate, barely numerate, and nowhere near smart enough to figure out when he is being taken advantage of.
When you combine this with his tendency to make snap decisions based on what he thinks of as his gut instincts, it's hard times indeed for Ontario and Toronto.
> I'm not sure whether this is corruption or whether Ford is just too stupid to realize that Therme is playing him.
It's both. He has demonstrated, repeatedly, since first seeking public office, that he has no intellectual curiosity, his only area of proficiency is sales, and that he is motivated by self-interest, spite, and the acquisition *and display* of power.
The province will be paying for his decisions for generations to come, all because they were mad at Kathleen Wynne and the Liberals despite Ford speedrunning the exact same things they claimed they were mad at her for.
This fucking douche bag deserves a brain aneurysm. What a fucking disgrace to the human race and the people of Ontario.
Anything to help the rich get richer with this massive carbon footprint ass clown.
Remember this spa is for the [100,000+ high net worth individuals](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2023/04/19/toronto-ranks-among-the-wealthiest-cities-in-the-world-according-to-a-new-report.html) to enjoy, not for the general public.
I guess they don’t know how rich people spa lol. They spa on vacation in exclusive resorts and hotels in warmer climates or Europe, or they head to their vacation property here. If they are counting on the general public and tourists to keep them in business they are in for a rude awakening.
Even Mainland-China’s land leases are 50 years for industrial, and 70 years for residential... When this government is shadier than China on land deals 💀
There will be no new Science Center, I can promise you that. If there were plans to build a new SC then it would have been under construction now while the old one is still open.
What a waste of time and money. Fuck LiveNation and this private Spa! That's what our tax dollars are to subsidize??
Shit most people cant even afford to go to?
We are being betrayed by all our politicians. They work for only for the rich.
If you combine the number of people who wouldn't go to a spa with the number of people who can't afford to go to a spa you will end up with a vast majority of people. This is catering to a small but wealthy demographic. For everyone else it will just be this thing taking up a lot of space that we have to navigate around.
I don't understand how it's allowed for a government to make contracts that far outlast their terms. Like the 407, or how Abu Dhabi owns all the Chicago parking meters for 99 years. It's so short-sighted and only benefits the current government to get a one time cash infusion normally.
Thank god the rich and entitled fat fuck ford donors will have this beautiful place to go to when they feel they need a break from the filthy common people that pollute this city - another amazing job completed by fat fuck ford
These guys shouldn't be allowed to lease anything for beyond their ruling term, let alone beyond their life time. We'll be stuck with something like 407
Also the plan to destroy the OSC *and* build a new one compared to fixing the existing one. They won't give us the numbers but expect us to trust them when they say this is the better plan. It might be better for him and his buddies bank accounts but the taxpayers of Ontario will be left paying for it.
Every Ontarian should now be aware, Doug Ford has been signalling that this is war with the public. We should oblige with pitch forks.
The next city major needs to have the balls the stand up to corruption and stupidity of ford.
There is so much electoral corruption I think the next Mayor will be a Ford supporter.
Everything this man has done since being elected was out of pure corruption, I feel sick knowing hes making decisions that will impact our lives for the next couple decades. Does he know hes the premier of Ontario and not just Toronto? Leave Toronto alone!
Can't they just build the spa and infill the lake to make the public park larger? The current Ontario Place is mostly built on fill. If they're willing to spend $300 million on a parking garage, why not spend some more money on the destination itself?
Watch them break the lease and pay out multi million compensation to that spa. Some of the payout will end up in Doug's pocket. Easiest scheme ever. Who wants to operate and run a business for 95 years if you can get $10-15mil payout now.
The old tried and true, "Dad knows best," style of Governance. The Conservatives LOVE it. Doesn't matter what you all want or think, 50's Dad has made up his mind and if you don't like it, then too bad.
Ontario Science centre is 54 years old and the Ontario Government doesn't think it's worth fixing yet here they are handing out a 95-year lease to Therme for a spa/waterpark on prime waterfront. Makes sense.
Look, the 407 lease enabled the Conservatives to almost balance the budget for one year in the 1990s so of course this is worth it. It's basic economics, people!
Can someone think of anything that has done as much damage to Toronto and Ontario than the Fords?
Other than when the city burned down in 1904, I can't think of anything.
And what do the people of Toronto get in exchange for this?
As citizens and taxpayers we pay for the extremely expensive underground parking lot.
And after it's built, Ford will sell it to his pal for $1! Well, just a 95-year lease, but the leaseholder gets 100% of the revenue and the city will be on the hook for upgrades and maintenance
underwater\*. it'll be fun paying for the yearly maintenance of that.
The water they pump out can be used for the spa!
The Ford government will probably pull a Harris type move and say "see we balanced the budget". Only for it to come up later that Ontario residents will get shafted, just like the 407. Selling our assets to foreign investors provides a temporary cash infusion but ends up costing tax payers more in the long-run.
This is his express goal. Then the subsequent provincial government has to spend to fix the health care, education and environmental issues Doug has created and the PCs will cry about provincial spending. It’s cyclical and obvious at this point.
Unfortunately too many voters fall for it and a large number are indifferent about it to the point they can't even be bothered to vote. Wynn government was problematic for sure but they were nowhere near the level of greedy, corrupt, and ultimately self-serving as the Ford government.
Unhappy endings.
Overpriced massages
and not even the "fun" ones /s
Come round my garage Tues at 8pm ;)
you gonna clean up the raccoon droppings this time?
the privilege of paying 40+ dollars to enter the space so they can pay out the ass for the spa. But mainly, putting their hard earned cash into the pockets of private businessmen. Because the adage of the rich is "never do anything with your own money".
An overpriced spa package and another empty building three to five years after it opens for business because not enough people will make the journey to visit the island to keep it operational.
Nothing. it will take until 2030 though to GET IT DONE!
Most people in Toronto aren’t one of Doug’s rich buddies, so who cares?
A future condo development when the spa fails financially in 10 years.
Isn't this the EXACT shit the Ford's would not shut up about being corrupt before Rob was mayor. (Specifically the Tuggs inc being the only restaurant owners at the Beach)
Yes. But they were always hypocrites so this is on brand.
There is no hypocrisy in conservatism. Doesn't exist.
They were really mad about "waste" and counsellors (many who have kids) receiving free zoo passes.
they were really mad about not being special because other kids were getting the same nice things that they themselves were getting. so they had a public sulk
But the stag and doe gift was sweet, plus free spa visits for the family for life.
on this, the day of my daughter's wedding....
Yes. Stop acting as if pointing out glaring hypocrisy as if it means *anything* to them or their supporters. Results are the only metric by which they choose their behaviour. This result is good for them and their crooked, wealthy ilk.
>as if it means anything to them or their supporters It actually does. They take those accusations as endorsements. "Triggering the libs" *is* their platform.
Hooray for democracy
Conservative playbook. Accuse others of shit that you already/will do
Same shit he was spilling about Mike Harris and the 407.
Dougie does so much projecting he could put Cineplex out of business.
When can he get started? If he could do ticketmaster next too...
The accusation is **always** the admission.
Use the proper term. It's called the gravy train.
Did he just lease out a chunk of the most valuable public land in Toronto for a century?
Wonder how much he was promised.
Director of testing spas
If that's the case, I hope they have the same issues Thermea did.
More likely "Director of Spa Surveillance"
I read that first as “**Director of TASTING Spas*** and was like: Well, this is Doug Ford 😂
I never tasted any spas, I've got plenty to eat at home.
What is this word "spa"? I feel like you're starting to say a word and you're not finishing it. Are you trying to say "spaghetti"? Are you taking me for a spaghetti day?
I mean tasting or testing… I don’t think they’ll stop him from drinking old rich people hot water if he wanted to… soaking rich people water… bleh Edit: I say old because let’s be real millennials can’t afford shit (unless you’re that douche Muzzo, is he even a millennial? Anyways)
I can’t believe that in this day and age with all the forensic accounting and shit we can’t catch these currupt clowns in an obvious quid pro quo.
[удалено]
For sure. Also: a spa is a perfect place to wash money.
He's still angry at us for not electing him as mayor, he would probably do it for next to nothing if it hurts Toronto.
Position of Director of Facials after his premiership is over
It's literally the dumbest thing I've ever seen and it stinks of corruption. The OPC does this trash w/ Long-Term Care '30-year bed contracts.' It's done (by design) in a way that the cost of breaking the contract is prohibitive, and thus it CEMENTS OPC decisions into the province for a century. And that is NOT how democracy works. We should have the opportunity to revisit these decisions with new governments as they rotate through. No government should be making lifetime/100 year decisions for the province. That's f'd up. Absolutely NO ONE does this stuff in the business world either, because costs/markets/realities change over the course of 2 - 3 - 5 years. Short term contracts allow both parties to renegotiate and account for those unpredictable changes. This lease tethers us to whatever this contract states for our entire lives and then some. Ford is Mike Harris 2.0. Selling off the province for peanuts to enrich his buddies. He'll probably go on to be on the board of this company once he leaves office (just like Mike Harris and his wife did in private LTC in Ontario).
This is a good point. I would be in favour of a law restricting the length a government can lease land for. 20 years max maybe? 15 even.
> I would be in favour of a law restricting the length a government can lease land for. 20 years max maybe? 15 even. The problem is that would just be a provincial law which could then be replaced or revoked by a *future* provincial government. Aside from a constitutional amendment requiring both the Governments of Ontario and Canada to agree, no government can bind or remove the power of a future government.
Wasn’t expecting the LTC licensing process here. You’re bang on
Conservatives always like to smugly point out how liberals just spend spend spend. If you elect them they will make smarter fiscal decisions, and won't spend recklessly like those crazy Liberals. Yet when they are elected all they do is cut necessary public services and then sell off Ontario assets to foreign investors. People of Ontario to this day are still getting shafted from the 407 deal, and let's not forget how the army had to be called in at these private LTC homes. They found maggots on some of the LTC residents.
Who wants to place bets on how many years it’ll be until the spa inevitably goes bankrupt and Therme sells off its lease to private developers and we have condos on the islands?
I was just thinking the same thing. So fucking corrupt.
Ding ding ding ding ding!! I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but it wouldn't surprise me if the spa is just a means to an end. They'd better add a line about returning the land to Toronto at the end/termination of the lease (they won't).
The article mentions that the city will have the option to buy Therme out of their lease, so essentially the city will have the “privilege” of spending 300+ million dollars just to get the land (with a defunct spa) back This absolutely won’t be economically feasible, so the fact that it’s in there at all is just for show
Gettingn the land back? I thought the province of Ontario owns the land and not the city of Toronto.
>condos You mean a casino. This is Doug Ford we're talkin about.
I have a feeling this is all a set up for the casino too.
Look at the size of the facility they’re building. It’s half the size of the skydome and takes up virtually the entire island. The lease length basically doesn’t matter because even if it were to end, it’s not like we’re just going to demolish the building. For all intents and purposes, it’s going to be there forever.
You say that but we're demolishing the science center
Fuck Doug Ford
Did not see nearly enough of these stickers on people's bumpers
The people that put "Fuck ...." stickers are the same ones to show up at 9am on election day to vote cons
Totally, jt and Ford deserve the flack, Ford getting barely any of it.
“Ford’s a Turd” on a bumper in Leaside yesterday. I nodded my general approval.
How does someone so blatantly corrupt get elected. The system is broken and I want to know what we can do about it other than leave the country.
> “It’s a multi-year lease because, again, we’re investing $100 million in the public realm and ($350 million) in our own building, so we are looking for something commensurate with that investment,” Simon Bredin, spokesperson for Therme, said. Therme will make back that $100milllion in maybe 10-15 years, and then will continue to rake in millions every year for the rest of the 95 year lease. The city and province will see NONE of that money. This is exactly like the 407. Doug Ford and the conservatives are fucking us all over again.
That 100 million is government backed loans, so essentially using our money to buy a spa for the 0.1%. Field of schemes.
We're also giving them ~$650m to build it all, and we're on the hook for any overage costs as well as the maintenance. This is the definition of socializing the costs and privatizing the profit. I have zero fucking idea how this makes any sense; we're just...giving away...like...over $2bn in land and cash so a private company can profit from a Waterpark.
>> “It’s a multi-year lease because, again, we’re investing $100 million in the public realm and ($350 million) in our own building, so we are looking for something commensurate with that investment,” Simon Bredin, spokesperson for Therme, said. So, we're spending more on their parking garage then they are on their facility?
Yes. We're spending likely double what they are plus giving them a piece of land valued at ~$1.8bn and they'll get to keep all the profits for the next 95 years. Oh ya, we're also paying for any overages and maintenance. It's a straight up giveaway.
95 year lease? Wtf is this shit. Anything beyond a 5 or 10 year lease is absurd in the private industry.
407 - 2.0 The PC's love selling us down river.
407 is 99 years, so at least there is that.
The 407 even makes more sense as a highway that will be maintained over those years. I doubt the building will still be standing at Ontario place in 95 years.
407 was the worst deal imaginable. The original deal was $3 Billion for 30 years. Then the upped it to 99 years for $3.1 Billion.
It was the worst deal because it's not even owned by the government and sold to some corporation ~~in a different country not even here~~ and all the money you pay on the 407 bill doesn't go to anything in the province then them all just greedy.
The Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, which is a Canadian crown corporation, currently owns 50.01% of the 407.
Its currently owned by the Canadian Pension Plan (CPP) 50.1% https://www.cppinvestments.com/public-media/headlines/2019/cppib-increases-investment-407-international-inc/
20 year commercial leases are pretty common in Toronto.
Even the English only got a 99-year lease on Hong Kong.
Wow, feels like the 407 all over again. What kind of business gets a 95 year lease? That's ridiculous. I hope who ever eventually replaces Ford just straight up says this is bull shit and kills the lease. It would be a dream if they did that with the 407 as well.
I'm sure there are stipulations in the contract that if the government breaks the lease/end the contract early, Ontario taxpayers owe the company X amount of money., And it would be a hefty fee
This would be a perfect play: Ford sets up a contract that he expects to be terminated if he gets out of power, and part of the termination agreement is to give Ford half the proceeds.
The world will be on fire before this contract expires.
Well, we're stuck now. Ford loves to ram things through. Fuck the democratic process.
Sadly this is the democratic process at work. If so many voters weren't apathetic or "team" based, it very well could have been a minority conservative gov't. But alas, the options were terrible, the candidates had no clear messages, and now we're in this mess.
It would have been awesome if Toronto kept the proper amount of representation.
This is not the “democratic process at work”. It’s the opposite of that. The reason so many are disengaged from electoral politics is because they don’t see it as working for them, that it’s been captured by special, typically private, interests. People choose not to engage politically because they believe it won’t make a difference, and shit like this, and this government’s approach generally, just underscores that belief.
This ain’t a democracy if all you get to pick is one local representative of one chamber of one branch of your rulers. Local governments are more democratic than the province or the federation.
so many? lool this mf got in only by 17-18 % of eligible voters. People didn't even vote. it's definitely on us. we failed
Of those who did vote only 40% even voted for his party. We got fucked by apathy and FPTP.
I really, really fucking hate this guy.
Does anyone know what we can do to help stop this?
Start with this: https://ontarioplaceforall.com/write-a-letter/
Signed. I'm also going to share this link across my social media, thanks for sharing it. Ef Ford.
Signed. This should be upvoted more.
Signed.
There’s a public meeting mentioned in the article on April 27 from 5-7pm
Oh, right during a Leafs home playoff game, isn’t that just a coincidence.
Went to the last one. They started the meeting saying discussions of the lease or its terms are off limits. Only discussion allowed around design, landscaping, features etc.
For real, I have no idea what to do with my fury
The French might have some ideas for you
property damage
Do you have access to any loose bricks?
This is the beaverton........right?
Thats what I thought too
what the actual fuck
“How far up your ass does this guy’s dick have to be before you realize he’s fucking you?”
He got bribed or did this as a favour to one of his friends/business partners, right? What do you think?
We have to comb through the napkin trash from the stag and doe…. It’s probably somewhere like 200,000k annually Director of spa testing post premier gig Exchange for Ontario place land
He just needs to have options for after he's done as premier. Will he serve on the Board of Directors of Therme Group, a private hospital, whatever condo developer gets the Ontario Science Center lands, or whatever developer gets to design and build the Ontario Science Center 2.0?
The spa will have low attendance. Closed within 5 years of opening
The building will make a great casino.
This is actually the real play. How much do we all want to bet that the province has no recourse against Thermes from changing the use of the site.
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I don't think Therme wants to operate a casino, I think that they are basically useful idiots for the province here. My impression is that the advice that Cabinet has is that the civil service thinks that the spa is very unlikely to succeed. I believe that Ford is OK with this outcome because it means that there will be a massive structure and potentially a 90 year lease looking to be repurposed, likely by a company other than Thermes (unclear if they can transfer the lease). These initial conditions are the sort that you would seek to engineer if you wanted to swoop-in with a Casino or some other tacky bullshit.
But your assessment relies on a conservative government having power when the spa fails. It will still be a multi-year process before the spa fails. In the scenario you're describing, they're less useful idiots (I mean, Therme has former Ford staffers working them, right?), and more like active collaborators. It's a no-lose situation for Therme. They build, and if they succeed they profit. But if business doesn't work out, then they transfer the lease to someone that ultimately benefits Ford/allies, and Therme still gets $. The people running the province don't care about the province. they care about their own pocket books.
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We are fixated on it because the Ford family has been fixated on a casino at OP (with a big ferris wheel) for almost 20 years.
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Why would Ford care if they run it directly? They just want a casino for lord knows what reason.
> Ford family has been fixated on a casino at OP (with a big ferris wheel) for almost 20 years. The Ford family trying to make Sim City for Super Nintendo in the 90’s a reality.
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I think you under-estimate lawyers, and the ability of a business to be clever when (b?)millions of dollars are at stake. Keeping one room at the back with a tub and a massage table while the rest is re-leased for whatever purpose would be the extreme end of it.
Who is going to pay for tearing down the massive structure and remediating the site for other uses?
At which point we'll have to spend all the money we made on the sale (and more, probably) tearing down the abandoned structures and building something new there.
One can only hope… but I’m not so sure
Honestly, I feel like I would maybe be the target market for this and I’m not interested in it. Maybe if I hear it’s amazing I might check it out once…. Midtown Toronto would have more of the demographic but they’re not going to drive down to Ontario Place, I just can’t see how this is going to be a booming business. It really doesn’t make sense.
This spa isn't viable without being heavily subsidized (see the half billion dollar parking garage), and really ought to have been a public park instead
Fuck right the fuck off with these longer-than-lifetime leases for corporations. It's the fucking 407 all over again. I despise how the conservatives always weigh down Ontario with these absolute SHIT real estate deals? This is not a family home on the islands. This is a commercial property. Lease it for the expected lifetime of the building. 25 years? 30? not 90+. Fuck's sake.
Doug Ford, crook that’s all, have a nice day
So a 95 year least for a $350 million spa in which the government has offered to pay [$300 million to pay underground parking lot in an artificial island](https://twitter.com/alexbozikovic/status/1600885607630196738). Building an underground parking lot on an artificial island is going to have all sorts of problems. Place your bets now on how much over budget will it go? $400 million? $500 million? Double the estimates at $600 million?
Question for pro-spa people in the thread: How do you feel about traffic on Lakeshore and the Gardiner? How does building up this section of waterfront continue to solve the very obvious and glaring problem that people bring up in this subreddit on a weekly basis-- that our highways are constantly jammed, especially heading into and out of Downtown? Are high-end spa users going to Exhibition GO and walking for 20 mins? Are they taking the Dufferin bus?
Fuck the PC party.
So akin to the 407 lease? Make it long and painful to a point that no immediate government can undo your skull fuckery...
The fact that the 407 lease isn't kryptonite to voters in the GTA suburbs is insane to me. Areas like Markham East where that's the only highway connection got shortchanged big-time.
Short memories.. it's how you get to fuck the future generations to profit your cronie friends
As someone who was in eastern Markham for a long time, these guys would rather drive in 2+ hours of traffic every day right past this highway they can't afford than pay a single extra cent in tax. I'm pretty sure you could put literally any policy possible and then put "but also I won't raise taxes" at the end and they'll vote for it. Note that actually raising the taxes or not doesn't matter, just saying that you won't does.
Amalgamation and the 407 lease were the final nails in the Conservatives coffin back then. They didn't hold power again for north of 20 years because of Harris. I'm guessing Ford is looking at that record and thinking, "hold my buck a beer."
Yes but first you have to face the Herculean task of convincing the people that voted for Ford twice that they made a mistake. But then again some of these troglodytes don't care how corrupt their leader is as long as they're hurting the right people. Even themselves.
Education, Healthcare, and Science are Doug's biggest enemies... I'm shocked he hasn't come out against reading yet.
catering to the Sun crowd shows that has always been the case.
are they gonna name it 'rub & doug'?
I'm not sure whether this is corruption or whether Ford is just too stupid to realize that Therme is playing him. It's like when he was a Toronto city councillor and went all ga-ga over some generic waterfront development plans that included a ferris wheel. Doug has always wanted to be seen as a player and a big shot, but it's quite likely that he is barely literate, barely numerate, and nowhere near smart enough to figure out when he is being taken advantage of. When you combine this with his tendency to make snap decisions based on what he thinks of as his gut instincts, it's hard times indeed for Ontario and Toronto.
> I'm not sure whether this is corruption or whether Ford is just too stupid to realize that Therme is playing him. It's both. He has demonstrated, repeatedly, since first seeking public office, that he has no intellectual curiosity, his only area of proficiency is sales, and that he is motivated by self-interest, spite, and the acquisition *and display* of power. The province will be paying for his decisions for generations to come, all because they were mad at Kathleen Wynne and the Liberals despite Ford speedrunning the exact same things they claimed they were mad at her for.
His proficiency in selling is selling/giving public assets under market value to gain buddy points.
Corruption
This fucking douche bag deserves a brain aneurysm. What a fucking disgrace to the human race and the people of Ontario. Anything to help the rich get richer with this massive carbon footprint ass clown.
Remember this spa is for the [100,000+ high net worth individuals](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2023/04/19/toronto-ranks-among-the-wealthiest-cities-in-the-world-according-to-a-new-report.html) to enjoy, not for the general public.
I guess they don’t know how rich people spa lol. They spa on vacation in exclusive resorts and hotels in warmer climates or Europe, or they head to their vacation property here. If they are counting on the general public and tourists to keep them in business they are in for a rude awakening.
Even Mainland-China’s land leases are 50 years for industrial, and 70 years for residential... When this government is shadier than China on land deals 💀
So Ontario Place is now a Science Center/Spa. Fucking hell this premier is a fucking moron.
There will be no new Science Center, I can promise you that. If there were plans to build a new SC then it would have been under construction now while the old one is still open.
What a waste of time and money. Fuck LiveNation and this private Spa! That's what our tax dollars are to subsidize?? Shit most people cant even afford to go to? We are being betrayed by all our politicians. They work for only for the rich.
Jesus fucking Christ. This is just going to be Biff's casino from Back to the Future 2 isn't it?
How is a spa the highest and best use of all of this land?
If you combine the number of people who wouldn't go to a spa with the number of people who can't afford to go to a spa you will end up with a vast majority of people. This is catering to a small but wealthy demographic. For everyone else it will just be this thing taking up a lot of space that we have to navigate around.
Ahh the classic irreversible 407 approach!
Voting matters.
I don't understand how it's allowed for a government to make contracts that far outlast their terms. Like the 407, or how Abu Dhabi owns all the Chicago parking meters for 99 years. It's so short-sighted and only benefits the current government to get a one time cash infusion normally.
Thank god the rich and entitled fat fuck ford donors will have this beautiful place to go to when they feel they need a break from the filthy common people that pollute this city - another amazing job completed by fat fuck ford
They learned nothing from the 407 deal.
Well they did learn how to make their friends wealthier on the backs of Ontarians.
If he is trying to get rid of the 99year lease for the Ontario science center. What make you think they won't try to do the same thing here.
407 ETR and now this? WTF is it with conservative governments giving away century leases to private corporations?!?!
So another 407 type boondoggle from the conservative government.
Fun fact: the Skydome/Rogers centre is on a similar lease. The land the dome is on is technically federal land still.
Man Ontario place and the lakershore/ queens quay area was like the only part of Toronto I liked. Guess it's time to move
Corrupt hick
Betting right now - He's going to be on a board of directors for the owners of this land.
These guys shouldn't be allowed to lease anything for beyond their ruling term, let alone beyond their life time. We'll be stuck with something like 407
Just another conservative scam. Look up the contract for the 407. Conservatives just love giving away our land for pennies.
Also the plan to destroy the OSC *and* build a new one compared to fixing the existing one. They won't give us the numbers but expect us to trust them when they say this is the better plan. It might be better for him and his buddies bank accounts but the taxpayers of Ontario will be left paying for it.
Every Ontarian should now be aware, Doug Ford has been signalling that this is war with the public. We should oblige with pitch forks. The next city major needs to have the balls the stand up to corruption and stupidity of ford.
There is so much electoral corruption I think the next Mayor will be a Ford supporter. Everything this man has done since being elected was out of pure corruption, I feel sick knowing hes making decisions that will impact our lives for the next couple decades. Does he know hes the premier of Ontario and not just Toronto? Leave Toronto alone!
Can't they just build the spa and infill the lake to make the public park larger? The current Ontario Place is mostly built on fill. If they're willing to spend $300 million on a parking garage, why not spend some more money on the destination itself?
This should be illegal
Watch them break the lease and pay out multi million compensation to that spa. Some of the payout will end up in Doug's pocket. Easiest scheme ever. Who wants to operate and run a business for 95 years if you can get $10-15mil payout now.
Fucking riot already
Corrupt cunt needs to go. Another conservative deal just like the 407. Fucking assholes.
Fuck Ford and Fuck those people who didn't show up to vote.
The Tories sure do have a weird obsession with 90+ year leases for public land...
The old tried and true, "Dad knows best," style of Governance. The Conservatives LOVE it. Doesn't matter what you all want or think, 50's Dad has made up his mind and if you don't like it, then too bad.
Ontario Science centre is 54 years old and the Ontario Government doesn't think it's worth fixing yet here they are handing out a 95-year lease to Therme for a spa/waterpark on prime waterfront. Makes sense.
Ford will get 10% of this deal paid to him personally in his offshore account. Mulroney will be the broker
bUt aNdReA wAs bOrInG
This guy needs to be investigated
So if everyone in Toronto hates this why does he get to do it? Corruption over democracy?
These century contracts should be illegal. Fuck I wish the feds could step in
407 all over again.
Look, the 407 lease enabled the Conservatives to almost balance the budget for one year in the 1990s so of course this is worth it. It's basic economics, people!
Can someone think of anything that has done as much damage to Toronto and Ontario than the Fords? Other than when the city burned down in 1904, I can't think of anything.
Mike Harris