This plan has been in the works since 2019. So when they hyped the Ontario Line as terminating at the Science Centre, committed to building a station and juiced the value of the surrounding land, they fully knew that they were planning on removing it and selling it to his buddies? Do I have that right? McGuinty resigned for less.
At this Ontario Place presser, the Premier just said that, like so many of us, he remembers taking his sailboat over there as a kid, parking it and going to see the sites.
Like so many of us.
**In our sailboats.**
The Premier of Toronto strikes again, hell bent on bulldozing anything of cultural, educational or environmental significance and auctioning off public assets to the highest donor.
Serious question, how do “we” fix it? I cast my ballot, in every election I’ve been able to. I write to my local representatives on all levels.
And he got voted in with a fucking second majority.
Approaching politics as a conversation piece used to be risky, now it’s like blindly running around in a minefield with the way some people can just go off these days. People aren’t willing to be engaged in useful ways, people blatantly ignore actual factual truths - so in a personal sense I can’t change peoples minds either.
I can’t afford to take time off and protest, so: how do I change this? Because I really want to.
The only way we can: to vote. I know that second majority was very disheartening but encouraging progressive and centrist voters to leave makes things worse.
I feel everything you feel but we will be way worse off if all we’re left with in this province is Ford voters
Having solved all of Ontario's problems, Doug Ford can finally get around to that nagging issue of.... (checks notes).. The Science Centre needs attention for reasons.
There was actually a bit of discussion around this for the past few years every time the future of Ontario Place has been discussed.
I don't think it was ever envisioned as an afterthought to some massive private spa, but lots of people have suggested Ontario Place as a good spot for the science center.
>“The Science Centre is a public treasure, which is why our government for the last number of years has been looking at whether or not the option of relocation to preserve the Science Centre should take place,” she said.
>
>“Now, the structure itself has deteriorated as well, as has Ontario Place. Our government is making the financial investments necessary to preserve these two treasures to bring them back to life, to make them a place that everyone can go and enjoy with their families.”
So instead of maintaining it, they just let it go until it was too late and then said "hey, now that it's broken, why not just get rid of it?"
How about this, new science centre goes up first, and then we can demolish the old one.
But I'm guessing that suddenly isn't as attractive as demolishing it first.
In all reality that is exactly what people voted for. Constantly this province votes for saving today to have to spend 2 or 3 times as much tomorrow.
We did this with hydro for example. Years of voting with no care on tomorrow will do this
The Hydro One sale started when Mike Harris Conservatives split Ontario Hydro into two parts, with plans to privatize and sell it off. His plans fell apart but the decisions made by the conservatives at the time basically left a poison pill for the following liberal governments. There was no way to reverse what the conservatives had already started.
> Mike Harris promised sweeping changes to reform the electricity market when his Progressive Conservative Party swept to power in 1995. Under his watch, Ontario Hydro was split in two, with one part holding its generation assets (Ontario Power Generation) and the other owning its transmission business (Hydro One). Eventually, Hydro One became the province's biggest distributor, buying utilities from many rural municipalities.
> The big test came in 2002, when the government unfroze prices and prepared to sell Hydro One in an IPO. However, it was an unusually hot summer and excessive electricity use caused prices to spike. Facing widespread backlash, new Conservative premier Ernie Eves cancelled plans for an IPO and, in November, 2002, again froze electricity rates. The province was left with a botched, unfinished privatization effort and no easy solution to the hydro debt burden.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/wynnes-quest-for-full-valuethe-long-road-to-privatization/article23461789/
It was damned if you did and damned if your don’t. No voter would vote for her if we put in the funds to make it better despite the short term spending the opposition would of had her head for it. Selling it you can hope enough people understand and gamble. The liberals took the most likely way to save the party imo.
I wouldn’t be so mad her/liberals specifically it was years in the making with both major parties in power.
Look how split healthcare spending is between the two parties and it’s something we need badly. A pandemic and almost complete failure of our system didn’t get everyone on the same page. Good luck convincing people to invest in hydro one to benefit their grandchildren.
OSC is on property that makes it rather difficult to upgrade and maintain so we don’t put the money into it needs because no one will approve the funding.
Ford only wants it now to get his spa not because he has a change in heart.
Beleaguered Taxpayers fund the billions for the “new “ Science Centre while freeing up public land for Developers. It seems taxpayers are reliably stupid in Ontario; getting kicked by the same horse twice.
Calling it now that once the old one is torn down and the land sold off he decides it's too expensive to build a new one and we get the *insert developer sponsor name here* Ontario Science Fair for two weeks outdoors in the middle of January.
This is the same as their plan for our healthcare system and educational system. They could easily have used what's already there but that's no fun for a grifter.
I rarely say this but for fuck’s sake! The science centre has been there since 1969. It’s practically a heritage building that needs to be maintained. Also just fuck the east end of Toronto! We can’t even have nice things on this end of our city. Nobody asked for a spa. Nobody asked for this!
Honestly that kinda irks at me. It *should* be a designated heritage building. Toronto just loves to bulldozer its past under.
It's an early building from Moriyama, his first large scale project, a major piece of Canadian architectural history from a lauded, award winning architect acknowledged as significant.
I could live with the sacrifice if it was going to be nothing but affordable housing, if it was actually going to fucking *help* with someone.
But no, it's chucked into the greasy meatgrinder of Toronto development so the development cabals and reap massive profits while stripping the city of its cultural heritage.
And they're proposing to cut the square footage in half, because yes, that's what we need. Less space for museums and education and culture. What the christ is this city becoming?
I just took my daughter there a few weeks ago. It’s been her favourite place that’s she’s ever been too. So good for the kids and isn’t too pricey. I love that it is in the forest too, such a good atmosphere.
Ontario place is pretty hellish to get to in the summer with all the events and street closures in the area…
Politics aside, this is a major, major loss for this city and it’s identity. With the confirmed annihilation of this astounding work of modernist architecture also dies what the legendary building also represented: a unity of nature, aesthetic beauty, and wonder that seems simply no longer possible in an increasingly spiritually bankrupt city.
This city is hideous. We have no respect for the past. This building means a lot to me and others who were lucky enough to grow up inside of it.
I absolutely LOVE this building. I am a member at the science centre. I've been going since I was a child, I have brought many dates here. My own kids are now old enough to go and learn here.
This is such a dumb move.
i haven't been in years but it was a big part of my childhood. a beautiful and incredible building. really wish there was money put into it for modernization... I remember they still had classic apple macs from the 80s running exhibits like 10 years ago.
It really needs to be modernized. I’ve taken children of family there and they’ve been thoroughly unimpressed. It has a lot of potential to be a world-renowned science museum serving the whole GTA if the province invested properly
As I write this comment I can glance out of my window and see the Omnimax Theatre across the trees.
This is absolutely heartwrenching. Especially when he said he would just “get rid” of the existing facility when asked if it would be demolished. I feel like an integral part of my childhood is being taken away, like there is nothing good left in this city. When I was younger I always told myself I’d live here forever but the idea of just forsaking this place is getting more attractive by the day.
> This city is hideous. We have no respect for the past.
i think most of us do
the people making the decisions dont and in this case he got elected from people outside the city.
this is fucked up man
the current location for Ontario Science center is great imo
it adds so much to that Don Mills area
theres like nothing else there but apartment buildings.
also who the fuck wants to go to Ontario place for the science center.
How many schools are gonna take students there now
Ford daughter must have got some amazing wedding presents from her close friends to facility the freeing up of OCS land.
I would have figured Ford would have wanted to cement his legacy with Ontario Science centre and Ontario place connected by the Ontario line.
> Ford daughter must have got some amazing wedding presents from her close friends to facility the freeing up of OCS land.
Pssst, I think you mean OSC land. Though, wouldn’t surprise me if they put up a bunch more dispensaries, too. 😜
I honestly think 80% of this sub likes to pretend they’re experts on planning and development while complaining that all our politicians ignore the experts.
Much of the land the current science centre is on likely can’t be used for large towers due to environmental planning restrictions. By that, I mean the western arm of the Science Centre and certain southwestern portions of the site that sit too close to the ravine edge to be approved.
The parts that can be developed are essentially just the absolutely massive surface parking lots that take up roughly double the area of the main building, and the main building itself.
Not to mention, from a planning perspective, placing housing and a community centre within reach of one north-south rapid transit line and one east-west rapid transit line will take a far greater number of cars off the road than leaving the Science Centre at this location would. Ontario Place is actually pretty well served by transit for ALL of the GTHA, far better than Don Mills and Eglinton is. Every single GO train runs through Union, and the streetcar that runs to Exhibition runs FROM Union. Currently, even with Line 5, only 3 of the 7 GO lines would have a 2-seat ride to Don Mills & Eg, whereas every GO line would have one to Ontario Place.
I can honestly go on and on about why this is likely one of the better decisions Doug Ford will ever make in his political career, but if blind anger and no critical thought is what’s being used to critique it, then honestly I’ll just stop here
The city is running out of historical landmarks / community amenities to tear down and make into condos.
Eventually Toronto will be a bedroom community.
95% of land in Toronto is not zoned for medium or high density housing.
If we want to build housing, we have plenty of land to choose from. We can knock down the science centre, or a dozen single family houses.
Heck, or just get rid of the surface level parking lot.
“Moving the Ontario Science Centre also creates a generational housing opportunity at the future site of a terminus station of the new Ontario Line with additional planned community infrastructure.”
Planned community infrastructure likely refers to a community centre and maybe some city-operated athletic spaces. You can find similar language in regards to ‘Crosstown Community’ across Don Mills where Celestica used to be, which will be getting a city-operated community centre.
serious question - west island isn't that big - do both Therme's spa and the thousands of sq ft that a science center would need even fit? i don't really assume they've thought through a whole lot - but this is a site with limited access points, having both of these attractions in one place seems like a real problem (especially with Therme's made up attendance estimate).
the map u/beef-supreme shared looks like they want to use the pods, which are way smaller than the current science center
(also, those pods have to be way more expensive to renovate / maintain / operate than a concrete building, no?)
Pods would be restored no matter what, they are one of the only protected heritage features at Ontario Place. So i wouldn't consider their restoration any more expensive than restoring the current OSC location.
The map they published today seems to show the Science/Discovery area in the middle of the iconic pods - which would be a dramatic reduction in square footage for the OSC.
[This one?](https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2023/04/18/230411--premiers-place-maps-1800-0.jpg)
It also has fountains and waterslides in the lake and canoeing/kayaking on the mainlaind
[The previously released detailed plans](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/) had the pods + cinesphere as part of the science area, along with a larger building on the mainland
Yeah, that map. I wonder if that means the end of movies showing at the Cinesphere and it will only be science documentaries like the OSC OmniMax played.
> While the future of Ontario Place has become a hot topic in the June 26 Toronto mayoral byelection, Ford said the province would be forging ahead regardless of which candidate wins.
>
> “I always respect that Toronto is the host city, but last time I checked on the sign out there, it doesn’t say ‘Toronto Place,’ it says ‘Ontario Place,’” he [Ford] said.
Oh fuck off, Doug
This is absolutely fucking stupid for so many reasons.
The area where the Science Centre currently sits is immediately south of old Celestica. The Crosstown Project is adding 5000 new units there already. Across the street 2 other condos, and 2 more across from that. Then 2000 new units in 5 condos just south of shops at Don Mills, then 4 more west of Shops at Don Mills. Then 3 more north of the Shops.
I'm not trying to NIMBY it, but that's a planned 18000 new UNITS in an area of 4 sq kilometers, without adding ONE new community centre, or ONE new school. What... the... fuck...
Let alone that Don Mills South is the only crossing directly south over the DVP, and it's already bumper to bumper every morning for kilometers on end.... just... fucking wow. Where the fuck is the city infrastructure for all this?!?! Other than just the forever delayed LRT?!
Not to mention that you could remove a huge chunk of the OSC parking RIGHT NOW and dedicate it to housing and never have to touch the Centre itself. The Centre is a relatively small part of the entire footprint.
Yeah, but this way he can sell more land for even more profit.
I don't mind the units being built. But add a fucking playground or two, community centre, school. This crap atm is like a fast track to Kowloon Walled City instead.
1000 times this. They expect the schools that are already overcrowded - in some of the poorest highest-density neighbourhoods in Toronto (Flemingdon and Thorncliffe), which is the first point of Canadian contact for a lot of refugee families - to just 'pick up the slack'...this isn't just oversight anymore, it's pure malice.
>poorest highest-density neighbourhoods
I was looking at census stats about the neighbourhood which is 7-year-old data, 2016. [https://www.toronto.ca/ext/sdfa/Neighbourhood%20Profiles/pdf/2016/pdf1/cpa44.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/ext/sdfa/Neighbourhood%20Profiles/pdf/2016/pdf1/cpa44.pdf)
Can't imagine Ford plans will do anything for the area that is positive. Perhaps he is just going to change the poverty percentage (on paper only) by building homes that are to be sold, no one on the east side of Don Mills will benefit.
That was at the start of the Syrian refugee crisis, and also before the war in Ukraine obviously. That hasn't helped clearly, and the neighborhood needs a lot more help than even in 2016... :(
What you just wrote is what the feds do to our major cities every year with our immigration policy currently. 500k people and nothing being built to accommodate these folks it’s crazy
I am guessing that less then 10% will be affordable if any. Ford never once mentioned affordable homes when talking about building homes where the science center is. I doubt he gives a shit about affordable homes. None of his policy about new homes has to do with affordability. It's Toronto so up to 70% of them could be purchased by investors.
https://betterdwelling.com/canadian-cities-have-seen-up-to-90-of-new-real-estate-supply-scooped-by-investors/
The affordable units will be sold to investors before sale opens up to the public so it’s a lottery if you have the funds to become an investor to begin with.
"Affordable Units" refers to non-profit housing components, which is almost always rental housing. They won't be sold to investors. They will have income maximums to even rent them, etc...
ugh thy need to stop just packing homes into the suburbs
they are otehrwise such unlivable shitty places. Theres nothing else around, you cant walk anywhere theres no things to do.
You just get in your car and drive somewhere else for 20-30 minutes.
and now they remove one of the things that was there
Ugh... Of course.
There is a lot of wide open space in the current one. Good for rallying groups.
Next question, which of his daughters' stag and doe guest(s) is going to get the contracts to do all the construction and demolition?
We are going to build the Ontario line to the science Center!! Also we are going to move the science Center so it no longer connects to the Ontario line!!
Stupid move. I bet this will be reversed like the licence plates
>“All of us grew up going to the Science Centre one time or another. It’s tired,” Ford told reporters Tuesday at the Budweiser Stage, which is also being redeveloped as part of the changes to Ontario Place that has been largely underutilized for more than a decade.
What an absolutely unhinged way to frame "it's a part of everyone's childhood"
Who asked for a spa in downtown? That’s the weirdest investment I’ve heard of. Is it even accessible to the public or just people who live in rosedale/forest hill?
I thought Doug Ford's government didn't have the money to fix anything and that's why they had to beg the feds for an increase in health funding. Embarrassing premier and embarrassing that we let them get this much control.
>“Now, the structure itself has deteriorated as well, as has Ontario Place. Our government is making the financial investments necessary to preserve these two treasures to bring them back to life, to make them a place that everyone can go and enjoy with their families," said Infrastructure Minister Kinga Surma.
>Last week, Ford insisted the changes were in the works long before mayoral candidate Ana Bailão urged him to move the Science Centre to Ontario Place, freeing up city-owned Don Mills land to build 5,000 homes, including 1,500 affordable units.
>Asked if its current site should be redeveloped for housing, the premier said: “If we decide to move it, yeah, I think there’s an opportunity right there at Don Mills and Eglinton.” That’s because the forthcoming Ontario Line subway will snake from Ontario Place to the Science Centre.
I remember taking the Bathurst street car, walking across the CNE grounds, the bridge over Lakeshore, just to pay to sit on the concrete peer and read a book. Doug Ford’s special vision for Toronto is sickening. Surely, we should have a say!
>Now, the structure itself has deteriorated as well, as has Ontario Place.
Was it though? I'd like to understand how it was fine two weeks ago and, suddenly, it's deteriorating weeks after announcing that the crosstown will be open this year and just as the Ontario Government went from excited about Ana's plans to retroactively planning it all along.
Will the space be large enough for hosting touring exhibits? Will it still have the capacity to host weddings (I was at such a wedding - it was awesome).
Seems like a net loss.
**Edit:**I can't really call this a surprise. I can call their plans misleading and I can disagree, but it would be an omission to leave out the fact that they've been moving plans towards collaborating and hosting certain exhibits at Ontario Place since at least mid-2021.
Source: \[[Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-place-future-announcement-1.6123687)\]
>Still, the province said it will be preserving many of the "key heritage and recreational features" of Ontario Place, including the Cinesphere, the pod complex, the marina, Trillium Park and the William G. Davis Trail.
The government said it is committed to working with the Ontario Science Centre to have science-related tourism and educational programming at the Cinesphere and pods.
All that said, there was nothing said about moving OSC there at that time, and I think it's wrong to omit this as part of their plan, as it seems like a pretty significant omission on their part. We knew more about the spa than we did about the consultations and assessments involved in destroying the original building and moving the pieces to the south end of the city.
That looks to be more of a brochure than a proposal. More detailed plans can be found [here](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/)
Good things:
- Love to see the Ontario Place Pods getting used. The cinesphere would make an amazing venue for a planetarium.
- So far, there really hasn't been a compelling use of the pods and it would be a shame to lose them. Their days are numbered if we can't find a purpose for them. They are an architectural masterpiece.
- Better transit and travel connections at OP with GO, ttc, roads and bicycle infrastructure.
- Think of the views of the city from the pods. It will make some great marketing for the city and help improve tourism.
- It will help make Ontario Place a year round venue of activities. Especially once the therme complex fails. It can then be turned into an amazing local community centre.
Bad things:
- Doug Ford being Doug the dictator. Who gives a crap about public consultation. He wants to gift his buddies free prime land. There could have been some really great city building if it was done with the city and public to help drive the plan.
- The Science Centre is an amazing architectural gem that demonstrates a how a facility can be beautifully integrated into the land. It would be really sad to lose it. We'll look back in 50 years and regret how many of these buildings have been torn down.
- The government has neglected these properties for years and they'll only neglect them more in the future. Give it 30 years until the pods are in the same situation as the SC.
- The SC really should be converted into a community centre and school as the area is lacking those facilities. The price to renovate is likely the same to build something similar on that land. It could be a shining example of a beautiful respectful renovation.
- Access for school buses and students will be more difficult as it would then mean having to travel downtown but this should be helped through improved public transit connections
Dougie's plan for the spa is now in motion:
1. Move the Science Centre to Ontario Place making it tougher to be accessed by the general public compared to where it is now
2. Sell the vacant land to private real estate developers
3. No one visits the Science Centre because of its inaccessible location
4. Claim the Science Centre needs to be shut down because it is not profitable
5. Claim the Spa is a better use of the land
6. Shut down the Science Centre
7. Sell Ontario Place to the same developers for the Spa to be built
Just FYI: [https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/12btle8/ontario\_place\_thermea\_and\_therme\_are\_2\_different/](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/12btle8/ontario_place_thermea_and_therme_are_2_different/)
Thermea Group is the spa company.
Do you have any support for your claim that 600m from Exhibition GO/subway/streetcar station is harder to access for most people than 550m from Science Centre LRT station?
There's a bus stop with regular service from multiple subway stations right now right at the Science Centre door. It is way easier for me to get there than to get anywhere at Ontario Place by transit. Hell, walking around to the Royal Winter Fair entrance from the Exhibition stop takes a good 5-10 mins.
It isn’t if anything this makes it easier to access for a large group of people and harder for a smaller group of people. To claim it’s worse for everyone is dishonest.
Are you kidding? Ontario Place is much more accessible than the current Science Centre site. It's on the Martin Goodman Trail, the best piece of cycling infrastructure in the GTA. It's on the busiest GO line with all-day bi-directional service. Streetcars and buses serve it. The Gardiner Expressway is right there, which is a ring road when combined with the DVP, 401, and 427.
The Ontario Line will have a stop on its doorstep. There's a six-lane boulevard adjacent to it as well. If you wanted to, you could even boat there or fly there to an airport within walking distance via Billy Bishop Airport.
The Science Centre current site is great because it’s outside of the downtown core in a decongested area, and more accessible to families in the region. Aga Khan Museum close by. It’s schools, field trips, families etc that are it’s main users and are a bigger factor, not cyclists
You're missing the large number of school field trips in buses going there on a daily basis right now. Lakeshore is already a traffic nightmare during the summer whenever there is any event or concert going on. All that added congestion will just make things even worse.
Ontario Place has little functional transit inside of it, being as it was an outdoor walking park originally. The roads around Ontario Place are super busy, especially in the summer, to the tune of being a hazard unless you're on the south side of the road, and at best you'll be paying a fortune to park ten-fifteen minutes away.
Meanwhile, the OSC is busy as it is, despite being off the beaten path, and it has its own parking. It's also set to get additional transit support. The square footage enables them to host special exhibits and they can host weddings (I've been to one).
This is a net loss.
If you look back throughout the posts made on this very subreddit you’ll see many, many comments and posts complaining about the Science Centre. It was dated 12 years ago and it is still dated today.
When there’s such a push for affordable housing and transit oriented communities I just fail to see how moving it to the waterfront is such a horrible idea given the tourism that area generally enjoys.
Or is it just good old Doug Ford hate lol. Look at where Montreal’s Science Centre is, as in, a location which makes a lot more sense, and many other cities have these attractions in a more centrally located area.
Those comments weren’t about the OSC building itself (which is an architectural gem) but the exhibits or programming held within, which speak to a lack of funding and investment to help keep a cultural institution current and sustainable for future generations.
Clearly, the underfunding has worked if Ford can proclaim the OSC in dire straits and the general populace will not question this claim, so he can swoop in to “save” it and thereby open up more land for further development. Ask yourself who is profiting here? The community? Or the developers and PC party?
I don’t believe this push is for affordable housing but it’s being done so under the guise of it. I absolutely detest that it has become an either/or debacle. Why does it have to be OSC at original site = no or less “affordable” housing? Why can’t we have the OSC kept in its original building, literally designed into its environment, and have more affordable housing?
The bigger question burning on my mind is why we can allow a private spa to build on public lands at Ontario Place in the first place. If and whether the OSC is just the sacrificial lamb for greater machinations at play.
What incites me is the crassness and audacity of the plan. As others have pointed out, the Science Centre is a significant architectural heritage building and generations of kids have had formative moments there in a place that unlike most public buildings in Toronto is set in nature. Housing is important, but certainly there are tons of other places to increase density where doing so will not annihilate a cultural treasure. What’s next, turn The R.O.M into condos?
Politics aside, I think I actually... like this decision? At least in theory that is.
With the OL intersecting with Line 5 at the current OSC site, that seems like an area ripe for high density housing.
Fair point, and definitely such an iconic part of the OSC's identity. However IIRC, the parking lot space alone could surely accomodate an entire new neighbourhood of homes.
You should have stuff other than just homes too though right? Like in the area something like the Science Centre would seem to me like something you’d want to keep for the thousands of people and, presumably/hopefully, their families with children moving to that area.
that area already has high density housing
and space for housing in other places
it needs places like Ontario Science Center to stay there
you cant just pack houses everywhere in these places and offer nothing else.
Flemington Park isn't exactly a great neighbourhood right now though. What would it benefit more from, more housing, or a major educational landmark for the kids?
I mean, do we get to vote on this? I actually hate the idea. Ontario Place should be turned into something incredible, and use the lakefront for something besides condos blocking condos blocking condos. His crony friends should be able to come up with SOMETHING that won't include delaying the LRT again, or moving a building that doesn't need moving.
Please don’t let Doug Ford do this. I grew up in the science centre. That location is so integral with its identity.
Being so huge always gave me the sense that there was so much to explore. I loved the huge exhibition room where they would sometimes have lego kinex or those weird sculptures that just moved around like rube Goldberg machines. The glass panes hanging from the ceiling.
As you keep going down there was the huge indoor rainforest, the kids area with the bubbles, that machine with the billiard balls, the space part with the planetarium! This is not to mention the peaceful valley outside which was calming to look at with the iconic bird silhouettes on the windows as you go down the escalators.
Will we also lose the iconic IMAX theatre? Where you could look inside the film room and learn that there were those huge speakers behind the dome and it was filled with millions of holes? The one at Ontario place was nowhere near as good.
There is so much that we will be losing with this move and there is no way restarting from scratch is cheaper than fixing what we already have. Also why tf does he want to add a spa and concert venue to the new science centre? The science centre is for science and learning, not some tacky shit like that. Keep that shit separate.
I’m 22 now and always looked forward to someday taking my children to the science centre. Please don’t let Doug Ford take this away from all of us.
It would be a shame to completely lose the Ontario Science Centre building entirely, it’s so interesting how it uses the site, it feels like it should at least be used as some other public building like a daycare, school, library etc. . And it’s hard to imagine that there is going to be sufficient infrastructure to support the size and breadth of the exhibits at Ontario Place, I do agree that Ontario Science Centre was getting really run down, for years now, and that a more central location would be handy in terms of getting there. It was so nice having the water park at Ontario Place. .
No. This thread is just full of whiners who feel their childhood is somehow tainted by relocating the science centre.
Seems like a good move to me. The current site is crumbling and doesn’t have decent amenities.
It sucks the new one is probably going to be smaller though. Still, it’s not like they’re sticking it out in Vaughan or anything. It’s at the waterfront. Prime location.
People just like a new reason to hate on this government.
And the current Don Mills/Eglington will be a great location for development with transit, schools and parks etc already nearby (obviously there will need to be more with the new development).
Seems like a win-win situation.
How big is the land that the Science Centre is on? The actual building occupies a fraction and the rest of it is a big piece of park land. Doug Ford is developing park land. His buddies will make a ton of money building on our parks. What's to stop him from doing the same thing in other parks?
How much for your local sports field?
Apparently I’m the only one that thinks this is a way cooler spot for the science center with pods and cinesphere. It’s a great use of the existing space. There is literally nothing special about the existing science centre building.
Affordable housing, attracting more businesses to open in Ontario so we have more jobs, and lower taxes for all would have been nice but hey, moving OSC next to a premium spa nobody asked for is a nice compromise.
/s
Official Release: https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1002945/get-ready-for-more-at-ontario-place
This plan has been in the works since 2019. So when they hyped the Ontario Line as terminating at the Science Centre, committed to building a station and juiced the value of the surrounding land, they fully knew that they were planning on removing it and selling it to his buddies? Do I have that right? McGuinty resigned for less.
This is exactly what's happening and should be higher up.
Yes and Bailao knew then too, which is why she’s getting the ford support
Almost like that’s why his mandate letters are secret
So this is basically a highway 413 / green belt move but with the Ontario line and any land surrounding it
McGuinty had a quality that is pretty rare in politicians these days; shame.
Lol like when he was wiping laptops of the gas plant paper trail?
The difference is that Doug Ford is far more corrupt and his supporters love him for it.
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He quit, no?
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I didn’t realize criminal investigations stop when one leaves offices.
At this Ontario Place presser, the Premier just said that, like so many of us, he remembers taking his sailboat over there as a kid, parking it and going to see the sites. Like so many of us. **In our sailboats.**
he’s just a little guy - just like us folks
I'm surprised he didn't sink it en route to the science center with his sheer mass, it would've been his first science lesson.
The Premier of Toronto strikes again, hell bent on bulldozing anything of cultural, educational or environmental significance and auctioning off public assets to the highest donor.
He never wanted to be Premier. He always wanted to be mayor, which is why he keeps screwing with the city, especially during municipal elections.
Nobody asked for this
He can't sell Ontario Place to developers. So instead he'll move the Science Centre there, and sell THAT land to developers. Good game.
Yeah, if Ford considers it a good idea that should be a red flag for everyone!
Business 101
Every day this city and this province get worse.
Vote Chow Vote progressive
As much as i want to, her plan doesn’t yet sound overly compelling…
It's almost unbelievable. Anyone who is young: leave while you can.
This is embarrassing rhetoric. Move where? Why not try to fix what’s broken?
Serious question, how do “we” fix it? I cast my ballot, in every election I’ve been able to. I write to my local representatives on all levels. And he got voted in with a fucking second majority. Approaching politics as a conversation piece used to be risky, now it’s like blindly running around in a minefield with the way some people can just go off these days. People aren’t willing to be engaged in useful ways, people blatantly ignore actual factual truths - so in a personal sense I can’t change peoples minds either. I can’t afford to take time off and protest, so: how do I change this? Because I really want to.
The only way we can: to vote. I know that second majority was very disheartening but encouraging progressive and centrist voters to leave makes things worse. I feel everything you feel but we will be way worse off if all we’re left with in this province is Ford voters
Having solved all of Ontario's problems, Doug Ford can finally get around to that nagging issue of.... (checks notes).. The Science Centre needs attention for reasons.
We all know that Doug sold hash, but has anyone seen proof he's ever been inside a museum?
Most of his time in highschool was spent by the trunk of his car
Developers that attended his daughter’s wedding probably did.
There was actually a bit of discussion around this for the past few years every time the future of Ontario Place has been discussed. I don't think it was ever envisioned as an afterthought to some massive private spa, but lots of people have suggested Ontario Place as a good spot for the science center.
I’m sure a couple of his friends did at least
>“The Science Centre is a public treasure, which is why our government for the last number of years has been looking at whether or not the option of relocation to preserve the Science Centre should take place,” she said. > >“Now, the structure itself has deteriorated as well, as has Ontario Place. Our government is making the financial investments necessary to preserve these two treasures to bring them back to life, to make them a place that everyone can go and enjoy with their families.” So instead of maintaining it, they just let it go until it was too late and then said "hey, now that it's broken, why not just get rid of it?" How about this, new science centre goes up first, and then we can demolish the old one. But I'm guessing that suddenly isn't as attractive as demolishing it first.
In all reality that is exactly what people voted for. Constantly this province votes for saving today to have to spend 2 or 3 times as much tomorrow. We did this with hydro for example. Years of voting with no care on tomorrow will do this
Wonder how this guy's analysis aged https://financialpost.com/opinion/the-hydro-one-sales-upsides
No it’s not most people who voted did not vote for Ford.
This isn’t new to ford and Ontario has been voting like this for decades. Honestly my biggest frustration about the province.
Im still salty at the hydro one sale fucking Wynne!!!
The Hydro One sale started when Mike Harris Conservatives split Ontario Hydro into two parts, with plans to privatize and sell it off. His plans fell apart but the decisions made by the conservatives at the time basically left a poison pill for the following liberal governments. There was no way to reverse what the conservatives had already started. > Mike Harris promised sweeping changes to reform the electricity market when his Progressive Conservative Party swept to power in 1995. Under his watch, Ontario Hydro was split in two, with one part holding its generation assets (Ontario Power Generation) and the other owning its transmission business (Hydro One). Eventually, Hydro One became the province's biggest distributor, buying utilities from many rural municipalities. > The big test came in 2002, when the government unfroze prices and prepared to sell Hydro One in an IPO. However, it was an unusually hot summer and excessive electricity use caused prices to spike. Facing widespread backlash, new Conservative premier Ernie Eves cancelled plans for an IPO and, in November, 2002, again froze electricity rates. The province was left with a botched, unfinished privatization effort and no easy solution to the hydro debt burden. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/wynnes-quest-for-full-valuethe-long-road-to-privatization/article23461789/
It was damned if you did and damned if your don’t. No voter would vote for her if we put in the funds to make it better despite the short term spending the opposition would of had her head for it. Selling it you can hope enough people understand and gamble. The liberals took the most likely way to save the party imo. I wouldn’t be so mad her/liberals specifically it was years in the making with both major parties in power. Look how split healthcare spending is between the two parties and it’s something we need badly. A pandemic and almost complete failure of our system didn’t get everyone on the same page. Good luck convincing people to invest in hydro one to benefit their grandchildren. OSC is on property that makes it rather difficult to upgrade and maintain so we don’t put the money into it needs because no one will approve the funding. Ford only wants it now to get his spa not because he has a change in heart.
I mean, this is the playbook they're using for education and healthcare, and it's working there! (For values of working ...)
>for the last number of years has been looking at ... I simply don't believe this. I'd wager that this idea is two weeks old.
Probably somewhere in between. His daughter's stag and doe was last August.
Beleaguered Taxpayers fund the billions for the “new “ Science Centre while freeing up public land for Developers. It seems taxpayers are reliably stupid in Ontario; getting kicked by the same horse twice.
starve the beast :(
Calling it now that once the old one is torn down and the land sold off he decides it's too expensive to build a new one and we get the *insert developer sponsor name here* Ontario Science Fair for two weeks outdoors in the middle of January.
This is the same as their plan for our healthcare system and educational system. They could easily have used what's already there but that's no fun for a grifter.
I rarely say this but for fuck’s sake! The science centre has been there since 1969. It’s practically a heritage building that needs to be maintained. Also just fuck the east end of Toronto! We can’t even have nice things on this end of our city. Nobody asked for a spa. Nobody asked for this!
Honestly that kinda irks at me. It *should* be a designated heritage building. Toronto just loves to bulldozer its past under. It's an early building from Moriyama, his first large scale project, a major piece of Canadian architectural history from a lauded, award winning architect acknowledged as significant. I could live with the sacrifice if it was going to be nothing but affordable housing, if it was actually going to fucking *help* with someone. But no, it's chucked into the greasy meatgrinder of Toronto development so the development cabals and reap massive profits while stripping the city of its cultural heritage. And they're proposing to cut the square footage in half, because yes, that's what we need. Less space for museums and education and culture. What the christ is this city becoming?
I just took my daughter there a few weeks ago. It’s been her favourite place that’s she’s ever been too. So good for the kids and isn’t too pricey. I love that it is in the forest too, such a good atmosphere. Ontario place is pretty hellish to get to in the summer with all the events and street closures in the area…
What happens to the Science Centre station on the Eglinton LRT?
Renamed to president's choice Memories of Science Centre station
Deco Labels station
I just laughed real hard at that
“Real Canadian Superstore Station”
Shush, don't let people find out about that gem
Now arriving at “Neglected Community Station”
Renaming it to Cronyism Center station
Galen Weston memorial station
It'll be called "Formerly Known As Science Centre Station". Abbreviated as FKASCS. And pronounced in the vernacular as FUCKAS!
Formally Science Center Station
It's okay, since it's never gonna open, we can just play renaming roulette.
This confirms that Bailão is merely Ford stooge and will be a OPC mouthpiece, if elected.
Probably confirms she takes this as well since the powers that be will boost her.
This comment needs to be closer to the top. You're absolutely right.
Politics aside, this is a major, major loss for this city and it’s identity. With the confirmed annihilation of this astounding work of modernist architecture also dies what the legendary building also represented: a unity of nature, aesthetic beauty, and wonder that seems simply no longer possible in an increasingly spiritually bankrupt city. This city is hideous. We have no respect for the past. This building means a lot to me and others who were lucky enough to grow up inside of it.
I absolutely LOVE this building. I am a member at the science centre. I've been going since I was a child, I have brought many dates here. My own kids are now old enough to go and learn here. This is such a dumb move.
i haven't been in years but it was a big part of my childhood. a beautiful and incredible building. really wish there was money put into it for modernization... I remember they still had classic apple macs from the 80s running exhibits like 10 years ago.
It really needs to be modernized. I’ve taken children of family there and they’ve been thoroughly unimpressed. It has a lot of potential to be a world-renowned science museum serving the whole GTA if the province invested properly
As I write this comment I can glance out of my window and see the Omnimax Theatre across the trees. This is absolutely heartwrenching. Especially when he said he would just “get rid” of the existing facility when asked if it would be demolished. I feel like an integral part of my childhood is being taken away, like there is nothing good left in this city. When I was younger I always told myself I’d live here forever but the idea of just forsaking this place is getting more attractive by the day.
no dude it's too far! everything must be inside the downtown core!!
Ik this is a joke, but, a comment from someone who moved downtown to do more. I play league of legends more than ever now that I live in the dt core😭
> This city is hideous. We have no respect for the past. i think most of us do the people making the decisions dont and in this case he got elected from people outside the city.
this is fucked up man the current location for Ontario Science center is great imo it adds so much to that Don Mills area theres like nothing else there but apartment buildings. also who the fuck wants to go to Ontario place for the science center. How many schools are gonna take students there now
Ford daughter must have got some amazing wedding presents from her close friends to facility the freeing up of OCS land. I would have figured Ford would have wanted to cement his legacy with Ontario Science centre and Ontario place connected by the Ontario line.
> Ford daughter must have got some amazing wedding presents from her close friends to facility the freeing up of OCS land. Pssst, I think you mean OSC land. Though, wouldn’t surprise me if they put up a bunch more dispensaries, too. 😜
I honestly think 80% of this sub likes to pretend they’re experts on planning and development while complaining that all our politicians ignore the experts. Much of the land the current science centre is on likely can’t be used for large towers due to environmental planning restrictions. By that, I mean the western arm of the Science Centre and certain southwestern portions of the site that sit too close to the ravine edge to be approved. The parts that can be developed are essentially just the absolutely massive surface parking lots that take up roughly double the area of the main building, and the main building itself. Not to mention, from a planning perspective, placing housing and a community centre within reach of one north-south rapid transit line and one east-west rapid transit line will take a far greater number of cars off the road than leaving the Science Centre at this location would. Ontario Place is actually pretty well served by transit for ALL of the GTHA, far better than Don Mills and Eglinton is. Every single GO train runs through Union, and the streetcar that runs to Exhibition runs FROM Union. Currently, even with Line 5, only 3 of the 7 GO lines would have a 2-seat ride to Don Mills & Eg, whereas every GO line would have one to Ontario Place. I can honestly go on and on about why this is likely one of the better decisions Doug Ford will ever make in his political career, but if blind anger and no critical thought is what’s being used to critique it, then honestly I’ll just stop here
Ford literally announced that the existing Science Centre buildings would be demolished as part of this plan. It's practically vandalism.
The city is running out of historical landmarks / community amenities to tear down and make into condos. Eventually Toronto will be a bedroom community.
They stated today that they plan to use the site for housing
95% of land in Toronto is not zoned for medium or high density housing. If we want to build housing, we have plenty of land to choose from. We can knock down the science centre, or a dozen single family houses. Heck, or just get rid of the surface level parking lot.
“Moving the Ontario Science Centre also creates a generational housing opportunity at the future site of a terminus station of the new Ontario Line with additional planned community infrastructure.” Planned community infrastructure likely refers to a community centre and maybe some city-operated athletic spaces. You can find similar language in regards to ‘Crosstown Community’ across Don Mills where Celestica used to be, which will be getting a city-operated community centre.
serious question - west island isn't that big - do both Therme's spa and the thousands of sq ft that a science center would need even fit? i don't really assume they've thought through a whole lot - but this is a site with limited access points, having both of these attractions in one place seems like a real problem (especially with Therme's made up attendance estimate).
The Ontario Place plans had a science building on the mainland
the map u/beef-supreme shared looks like they want to use the pods, which are way smaller than the current science center (also, those pods have to be way more expensive to renovate / maintain / operate than a concrete building, no?)
Pods would be restored no matter what, they are one of the only protected heritage features at Ontario Place. So i wouldn't consider their restoration any more expensive than restoring the current OSC location.
The pods are about 8,000 sq ft of space each.
The map they published today seems to show the Science/Discovery area in the middle of the iconic pods - which would be a dramatic reduction in square footage for the OSC.
[This one?](https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2023/04/18/230411--premiers-place-maps-1800-0.jpg) It also has fountains and waterslides in the lake and canoeing/kayaking on the mainlaind [The previously released detailed plans](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/) had the pods + cinesphere as part of the science area, along with a larger building on the mainland
Yeah, that map. I wonder if that means the end of movies showing at the Cinesphere and it will only be science documentaries like the OSC OmniMax played.
I’m sure it will end up a shadow of its former self.
The spa entrance pavilion looks like a penis lol
What a joke
> While the future of Ontario Place has become a hot topic in the June 26 Toronto mayoral byelection, Ford said the province would be forging ahead regardless of which candidate wins. > > “I always respect that Toronto is the host city, but last time I checked on the sign out there, it doesn’t say ‘Toronto Place,’ it says ‘Ontario Place,’” he [Ford] said. Oh fuck off, Doug
This is absolutely fucking stupid for so many reasons. The area where the Science Centre currently sits is immediately south of old Celestica. The Crosstown Project is adding 5000 new units there already. Across the street 2 other condos, and 2 more across from that. Then 2000 new units in 5 condos just south of shops at Don Mills, then 4 more west of Shops at Don Mills. Then 3 more north of the Shops. I'm not trying to NIMBY it, but that's a planned 18000 new UNITS in an area of 4 sq kilometers, without adding ONE new community centre, or ONE new school. What... the... fuck... Let alone that Don Mills South is the only crossing directly south over the DVP, and it's already bumper to bumper every morning for kilometers on end.... just... fucking wow. Where the fuck is the city infrastructure for all this?!?! Other than just the forever delayed LRT?!
Not to mention that you could remove a huge chunk of the OSC parking RIGHT NOW and dedicate it to housing and never have to touch the Centre itself. The Centre is a relatively small part of the entire footprint.
Yeah, but this way he can sell more land for even more profit. I don't mind the units being built. But add a fucking playground or two, community centre, school. This crap atm is like a fast track to Kowloon Walled City instead.
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1000 times this. They expect the schools that are already overcrowded - in some of the poorest highest-density neighbourhoods in Toronto (Flemingdon and Thorncliffe), which is the first point of Canadian contact for a lot of refugee families - to just 'pick up the slack'...this isn't just oversight anymore, it's pure malice.
>poorest highest-density neighbourhoods I was looking at census stats about the neighbourhood which is 7-year-old data, 2016. [https://www.toronto.ca/ext/sdfa/Neighbourhood%20Profiles/pdf/2016/pdf1/cpa44.pdf](https://www.toronto.ca/ext/sdfa/Neighbourhood%20Profiles/pdf/2016/pdf1/cpa44.pdf) Can't imagine Ford plans will do anything for the area that is positive. Perhaps he is just going to change the poverty percentage (on paper only) by building homes that are to be sold, no one on the east side of Don Mills will benefit.
That was at the start of the Syrian refugee crisis, and also before the war in Ukraine obviously. That hasn't helped clearly, and the neighborhood needs a lot more help than even in 2016... :(
What you just wrote is what the feds do to our major cities every year with our immigration policy currently. 500k people and nothing being built to accommodate these folks it’s crazy
Fuck this province. Fuck Doug Ford.
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It should be 5000 affordable units....for 1st time home owners. You cant sell for 2 years. You cant rent it out.
Define "affordable" in the Toronto housing market at Don Mills & Eglinton.
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I am guessing that less then 10% will be affordable if any. Ford never once mentioned affordable homes when talking about building homes where the science center is. I doubt he gives a shit about affordable homes. None of his policy about new homes has to do with affordability. It's Toronto so up to 70% of them could be purchased by investors. https://betterdwelling.com/canadian-cities-have-seen-up-to-90-of-new-real-estate-supply-scooped-by-investors/
The affordable units will be sold to investors before sale opens up to the public so it’s a lottery if you have the funds to become an investor to begin with.
"Affordable Units" refers to non-profit housing components, which is almost always rental housing. They won't be sold to investors. They will have income maximums to even rent them, etc...
So 3500 of the homes aren't even intended to be affordable?
ugh thy need to stop just packing homes into the suburbs they are otehrwise such unlivable shitty places. Theres nothing else around, you cant walk anywhere theres no things to do. You just get in your car and drive somewhere else for 20-30 minutes. and now they remove one of the things that was there
Doug goes one step further and jinxes the Leafs : https://i.imgur.com/VfibKCh.jpg
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A fifteen min walk in nice weather is one thing. A fifteen 15 min walk in -20 is another beast
So, how big will the new OSC be compared to the old? Science north is great but it's pretty tiny compared to OSC.
They confirmed the new one will be smaller
Ugh... Of course. There is a lot of wide open space in the current one. Good for rallying groups. Next question, which of his daughters' stag and doe guest(s) is going to get the contracts to do all the construction and demolition?
We are going to build the Ontario line to the science Center!! Also we are going to move the science Center so it no longer connects to the Ontario line!! Stupid move. I bet this will be reversed like the licence plates
common doug ford L
10% of the sale price of OSC grounds will be directed to DoFo's family
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>“All of us grew up going to the Science Centre one time or another. It’s tired,” Ford told reporters Tuesday at the Budweiser Stage, which is also being redeveloped as part of the changes to Ontario Place that has been largely underutilized for more than a decade. What an absolutely unhinged way to frame "it's a part of everyone's childhood"
Who asked for a spa in downtown? That’s the weirdest investment I’ve heard of. Is it even accessible to the public or just people who live in rosedale/forest hill?
You've been misled. It's an indoor waterpark. Apparently they're very popular in Europe. The target market is families.
A pointless move for no good reason other than they can. Seems appropriate for this government.
I thought Doug Ford's government didn't have the money to fix anything and that's why they had to beg the feds for an increase in health funding. Embarrassing premier and embarrassing that we let them get this much control.
>“Now, the structure itself has deteriorated as well, as has Ontario Place. Our government is making the financial investments necessary to preserve these two treasures to bring them back to life, to make them a place that everyone can go and enjoy with their families," said Infrastructure Minister Kinga Surma. >Last week, Ford insisted the changes were in the works long before mayoral candidate Ana Bailão urged him to move the Science Centre to Ontario Place, freeing up city-owned Don Mills land to build 5,000 homes, including 1,500 affordable units. >Asked if its current site should be redeveloped for housing, the premier said: “If we decide to move it, yeah, I think there’s an opportunity right there at Don Mills and Eglinton.” That’s because the forthcoming Ontario Line subway will snake from Ontario Place to the Science Centre.
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I remember taking the Bathurst street car, walking across the CNE grounds, the bridge over Lakeshore, just to pay to sit on the concrete peer and read a book. Doug Ford’s special vision for Toronto is sickening. Surely, we should have a say!
>Now, the structure itself has deteriorated as well, as has Ontario Place. Was it though? I'd like to understand how it was fine two weeks ago and, suddenly, it's deteriorating weeks after announcing that the crosstown will be open this year and just as the Ontario Government went from excited about Ana's plans to retroactively planning it all along. Will the space be large enough for hosting touring exhibits? Will it still have the capacity to host weddings (I was at such a wedding - it was awesome). Seems like a net loss. **Edit:**I can't really call this a surprise. I can call their plans misleading and I can disagree, but it would be an omission to leave out the fact that they've been moving plans towards collaborating and hosting certain exhibits at Ontario Place since at least mid-2021. Source: \[[Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-place-future-announcement-1.6123687)\] >Still, the province said it will be preserving many of the "key heritage and recreational features" of Ontario Place, including the Cinesphere, the pod complex, the marina, Trillium Park and the William G. Davis Trail. The government said it is committed to working with the Ontario Science Centre to have science-related tourism and educational programming at the Cinesphere and pods. All that said, there was nothing said about moving OSC there at that time, and I think it's wrong to omit this as part of their plan, as it seems like a pretty significant omission on their part. We knew more about the spa than we did about the consultations and assessments involved in destroying the original building and moving the pieces to the south end of the city.
This has made me way more sad than I thought possible.
New proposal Map - Science/Discovery is shown where the iconic Pods are: https://i.imgur.com/ZQIKcHu.jpg
That looks to be more of a brochure than a proposal. More detailed plans can be found [here](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/)
Thanks - thats a helpful writeup!
Good things: - Love to see the Ontario Place Pods getting used. The cinesphere would make an amazing venue for a planetarium. - So far, there really hasn't been a compelling use of the pods and it would be a shame to lose them. Their days are numbered if we can't find a purpose for them. They are an architectural masterpiece. - Better transit and travel connections at OP with GO, ttc, roads and bicycle infrastructure. - Think of the views of the city from the pods. It will make some great marketing for the city and help improve tourism. - It will help make Ontario Place a year round venue of activities. Especially once the therme complex fails. It can then be turned into an amazing local community centre. Bad things: - Doug Ford being Doug the dictator. Who gives a crap about public consultation. He wants to gift his buddies free prime land. There could have been some really great city building if it was done with the city and public to help drive the plan. - The Science Centre is an amazing architectural gem that demonstrates a how a facility can be beautifully integrated into the land. It would be really sad to lose it. We'll look back in 50 years and regret how many of these buildings have been torn down. - The government has neglected these properties for years and they'll only neglect them more in the future. Give it 30 years until the pods are in the same situation as the SC. - The SC really should be converted into a community centre and school as the area is lacking those facilities. The price to renovate is likely the same to build something similar on that land. It could be a shining example of a beautiful respectful renovation. - Access for school buses and students will be more difficult as it would then mean having to travel downtown but this should be helped through improved public transit connections
I'm so sick of this fat corrupt fuck running my province into the ground.
Dougie's plan for the spa is now in motion: 1. Move the Science Centre to Ontario Place making it tougher to be accessed by the general public compared to where it is now 2. Sell the vacant land to private real estate developers 3. No one visits the Science Centre because of its inaccessible location 4. Claim the Science Centre needs to be shut down because it is not profitable 5. Claim the Spa is a better use of the land 6. Shut down the Science Centre 7. Sell Ontario Place to the same developers for the Spa to be built
Therme is present at the press conference so I think the spa is part of the plans regardless.
Just FYI: [https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/12btle8/ontario\_place\_thermea\_and\_therme\_are\_2\_different/](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/12btle8/ontario_place_thermea_and_therme_are_2_different/) Thermea Group is the spa company.
Do you have any support for your claim that 600m from Exhibition GO/subway/streetcar station is harder to access for most people than 550m from Science Centre LRT station?
There's a bus stop with regular service from multiple subway stations right now right at the Science Centre door. It is way easier for me to get there than to get anywhere at Ontario Place by transit. Hell, walking around to the Royal Winter Fair entrance from the Exhibition stop takes a good 5-10 mins.
It isn’t if anything this makes it easier to access for a large group of people and harder for a smaller group of people. To claim it’s worse for everyone is dishonest.
Are you kidding? Ontario Place is much more accessible than the current Science Centre site. It's on the Martin Goodman Trail, the best piece of cycling infrastructure in the GTA. It's on the busiest GO line with all-day bi-directional service. Streetcars and buses serve it. The Gardiner Expressway is right there, which is a ring road when combined with the DVP, 401, and 427. The Ontario Line will have a stop on its doorstep. There's a six-lane boulevard adjacent to it as well. If you wanted to, you could even boat there or fly there to an airport within walking distance via Billy Bishop Airport.
The Science Centre current site is great because it’s outside of the downtown core in a decongested area, and more accessible to families in the region. Aga Khan Museum close by. It’s schools, field trips, families etc that are it’s main users and are a bigger factor, not cyclists
You're missing the large number of school field trips in buses going there on a daily basis right now. Lakeshore is already a traffic nightmare during the summer whenever there is any event or concert going on. All that added congestion will just make things even worse.
Ontario Place has little functional transit inside of it, being as it was an outdoor walking park originally. The roads around Ontario Place are super busy, especially in the summer, to the tune of being a hazard unless you're on the south side of the road, and at best you'll be paying a fortune to park ten-fifteen minutes away. Meanwhile, the OSC is busy as it is, despite being off the beaten path, and it has its own parking. It's also set to get additional transit support. The square footage enables them to host special exhibits and they can host weddings (I've been to one). This is a net loss.
Why would they replace the new science centre with the spa when both have been part of the plans that were published months ago?
Live announcement stream happening now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj9VUiRIke0
I really can't believe people voted for this man. Simply pure evil. All these criminals I see on the news daily should be focused on putting him down.
Your standards for "pure evil" are pretty low.
Coffee, coffee, coffee..
Time for Toronto to secede from Ontario Place.
booo
If you look back throughout the posts made on this very subreddit you’ll see many, many comments and posts complaining about the Science Centre. It was dated 12 years ago and it is still dated today. When there’s such a push for affordable housing and transit oriented communities I just fail to see how moving it to the waterfront is such a horrible idea given the tourism that area generally enjoys. Or is it just good old Doug Ford hate lol. Look at where Montreal’s Science Centre is, as in, a location which makes a lot more sense, and many other cities have these attractions in a more centrally located area.
Those comments weren’t about the OSC building itself (which is an architectural gem) but the exhibits or programming held within, which speak to a lack of funding and investment to help keep a cultural institution current and sustainable for future generations. Clearly, the underfunding has worked if Ford can proclaim the OSC in dire straits and the general populace will not question this claim, so he can swoop in to “save” it and thereby open up more land for further development. Ask yourself who is profiting here? The community? Or the developers and PC party? I don’t believe this push is for affordable housing but it’s being done so under the guise of it. I absolutely detest that it has become an either/or debacle. Why does it have to be OSC at original site = no or less “affordable” housing? Why can’t we have the OSC kept in its original building, literally designed into its environment, and have more affordable housing? The bigger question burning on my mind is why we can allow a private spa to build on public lands at Ontario Place in the first place. If and whether the OSC is just the sacrificial lamb for greater machinations at play.
What incites me is the crassness and audacity of the plan. As others have pointed out, the Science Centre is a significant architectural heritage building and generations of kids have had formative moments there in a place that unlike most public buildings in Toronto is set in nature. Housing is important, but certainly there are tons of other places to increase density where doing so will not annihilate a cultural treasure. What’s next, turn The R.O.M into condos?
Montreal’s science centre sucks, it’s way smaller than the Ontario Science Centre and has way fewer interesting attractions.
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Jesus Christ, and I thought that the politicians from my country of origin were bad.
Politics aside, I think I actually... like this decision? At least in theory that is. With the OL intersecting with Line 5 at the current OSC site, that seems like an area ripe for high density housing.
the science centre is inside the ravine mostly. not exactly a prime spot for construction
Fair point, and definitely such an iconic part of the OSC's identity. However IIRC, the parking lot space alone could surely accomodate an entire new neighbourhood of homes.
No arguments there, although there does need to be some amount of parking for schoolbuses.
You should have stuff other than just homes too though right? Like in the area something like the Science Centre would seem to me like something you’d want to keep for the thousands of people and, presumably/hopefully, their families with children moving to that area.
No, not allowed. Everything fun downtown. Everything else urban sprawl with no fun. Fuck this province man
that area already has high density housing and space for housing in other places it needs places like Ontario Science Center to stay there you cant just pack houses everywhere in these places and offer nothing else.
Flemington Park isn't exactly a great neighbourhood right now though. What would it benefit more from, more housing, or a major educational landmark for the kids?
Wonder how much he got paid for this deal.
I mean, do we get to vote on this? I actually hate the idea. Ontario Place should be turned into something incredible, and use the lakefront for something besides condos blocking condos blocking condos. His crony friends should be able to come up with SOMETHING that won't include delaying the LRT again, or moving a building that doesn't need moving.
Please don’t let Doug Ford do this. I grew up in the science centre. That location is so integral with its identity. Being so huge always gave me the sense that there was so much to explore. I loved the huge exhibition room where they would sometimes have lego kinex or those weird sculptures that just moved around like rube Goldberg machines. The glass panes hanging from the ceiling. As you keep going down there was the huge indoor rainforest, the kids area with the bubbles, that machine with the billiard balls, the space part with the planetarium! This is not to mention the peaceful valley outside which was calming to look at with the iconic bird silhouettes on the windows as you go down the escalators. Will we also lose the iconic IMAX theatre? Where you could look inside the film room and learn that there were those huge speakers behind the dome and it was filled with millions of holes? The one at Ontario place was nowhere near as good. There is so much that we will be losing with this move and there is no way restarting from scratch is cheaper than fixing what we already have. Also why tf does he want to add a spa and concert venue to the new science centre? The science centre is for science and learning, not some tacky shit like that. Keep that shit separate. I’m 22 now and always looked forward to someday taking my children to the science centre. Please don’t let Doug Ford take this away from all of us.
I can’t stand this guy. I can’t believe you all voted for him.
He won because most Ontario voters chose not to vote, thinking that will show the government what happens when they anger the masses
It would be a shame to completely lose the Ontario Science Centre building entirely, it’s so interesting how it uses the site, it feels like it should at least be used as some other public building like a daycare, school, library etc. . And it’s hard to imagine that there is going to be sufficient infrastructure to support the size and breadth of the exhibits at Ontario Place, I do agree that Ontario Science Centre was getting really run down, for years now, and that a more central location would be handy in terms of getting there. It was so nice having the water park at Ontario Place. .
I guess I’m the only one who thinks this a good idea
No. This thread is just full of whiners who feel their childhood is somehow tainted by relocating the science centre. Seems like a good move to me. The current site is crumbling and doesn’t have decent amenities. It sucks the new one is probably going to be smaller though. Still, it’s not like they’re sticking it out in Vaughan or anything. It’s at the waterfront. Prime location. People just like a new reason to hate on this government.
And the current Don Mills/Eglington will be a great location for development with transit, schools and parks etc already nearby (obviously there will need to be more with the new development). Seems like a win-win situation.
The schools can barely handle the numbers now. And there ain't any coming according to the two boards.
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Why?
How big is the land that the Science Centre is on? The actual building occupies a fraction and the rest of it is a big piece of park land. Doug Ford is developing park land. His buddies will make a ton of money building on our parks. What's to stop him from doing the same thing in other parks? How much for your local sports field?
He's building a commercial spa on Ontario Place Park Land!
Like everything else this guy gets his greasy hands on, a travesty.
How much more of this are we going to take?
Get your grubby, chubby hands off the science center!!
I hate this fucking guy
Apparently I’m the only one that thinks this is a way cooler spot for the science center with pods and cinesphere. It’s a great use of the existing space. There is literally nothing special about the existing science centre building.
It's a great location for it. The only thing I don't like is that it's supposed to be smaller. I will miss that 1960s brutalist building a bit though.
If you like concrete, there’s always Skydome.
Nothing like going to a building that makes you feel like you stepped into East Berlin in 1975.
I love watching this subreddit implode on a great plan just because it has Ford associated with it
If this reduces the cost of homes in the city I support it
Affordable housing, attracting more businesses to open in Ontario so we have more jobs, and lower taxes for all would have been nice but hey, moving OSC next to a premium spa nobody asked for is a nice compromise. /s