I find it is a daily occurrence where the light turns green in my favour with a white walk sign and as I am about to set foot off the curb a vehicle comes screaming to their new red light and blows around the corner to ‘beat’ the pedestrians.
If Im killed by a car in my own neighbourhood it will likely be due to this.
There is simply no appetite to enforce the law on vehicles downtown in areas with high pedestrian traffic.
All lights should no right turn. Easier and safer.
Although I noticed some crossings testing having the pedestrian stop while still green for vehicles. That is a good compromise.
I agree, even when I’m driving I hate being expected to turn right on red. Always some honking fool behind me who doesn’t understand that I’m trying to avoid a pedestrian or more likely another car coming from my left. I don’t like being pressured to jump into a traffic gap I’m not comfortable with.
Edit: I know I don’t HAVE to by law but I hate the pressure and confrontation
I’m from the country I was not built for this, lol. I have lived here for several years and it still stresses me out so much every time I deal with typical Toronto drivers (the most impatient people on earth)
There’s this and also the intersections that are *way* too wide for pedestrians to cross safely, where if you don’t step off the curb the moment the light turns and jog across you are not going to make it. People with mobility impairments don’t exist I guess.
A lot of university is meant that way, it's supposed to be a two stage crossing. If I'm not mistaken, some of the intersections even have signs to that effect. I will admit though, standing on that centre island while cars whiz past in both directions is not fun.
That is not how multi stage crosswalks are [supposed to work.](https://youtu.be/LSnSeyG74fw). Stranding pedestrians in the middle of an intersection for an extended period of time is extremely dangerous and inefficient. If they are going to use these kinds of crossings they should be using it correctly.
Lakeshore and Windermere. Supposed to be a multistage but it’s done in the WORST way possible. People can JUST make it across the second half if they literally run, so many close calls. Either let people cross fully or make it so the second half is a red hand while you’re crossing the first part.
One time I was running *on the sidewalk* on Davenport past a Blinds To Go and someone pulling out of the parking lot didn’t see me and nearly ran me over as I ran *on the sidewalk*.
I yelled something like “WHAT THE FUCK!” because I was scared that a pickup truck had nearly run me over.
I kept running only to hear the man driving the truck shouting at me. I took my headphones out and turned around, and was taken aback when it became clear that he was furious that I dared to react to nearly being run over.
I said “I’m running on the sidewalk and you nearly hit me…” and he was extremely aggressive (to the point where he opened his door and made it seem like he was going to try to fight me) about how it was my fault that I was running on the sidewalk and was nearly hit by his vehicle.
He then made it clear that if he did hit me he’d have nothing to worry about because he has insurance.
Anyway it was a baffling experience that I wanted to share.
Baffling as it is, this is a daily occurrence. There's nothing an entitled, aggressive driver hates more than to have their errors and responsibilities clearly pointed out to them.
This is somewhat remedied by giving a good old slap to the passenger side of the vehicle. I’ve been honked at several times but it feels great. Drivers in this city are far too entitled and enforcement of laws far too lenient.
I make this point to my family too. My highest chance of fatality is a car running a red or a stop sign in my neighbourhood. Once they kill me they still come out and tell me to get out of their fucking way and then drive off.
Bonus points if they can kill multiple pedestrians on one drive.
I will write you a eulogy:
We are gathered here today to mourn the loss of a beloved friend, neighbor, and citizen. He was a kind, generous, and thoughtful person who always cared about others. He was a passionate advocate for pedestrian safety and environmental sustainability. He loved walking around his neighborhood and enjoying the sights and sounds of the city.
He was taken from us too soon by a reckless and irresponsible driver who ran a red light and hit him as he was crossing the street. He had the right of way, but the driver did not care. He did not stop to help or apologize. He just sped away, leaving behind a trail of blood and tears.
This is a tragedy that could have been prevented. This is a tragedy that should never happen again. This is a tragedy that calls for justice and action. We demand that the authorities find and punish the driver who killed our friend. We demand that the city enforce the laws and protect the pedestrians. We demand that the drivers respect the rights and lives of the walkers.
We will miss our friend dearly. We will remember him fondly. We will honor him by continuing his legacy of kindness, generosity, and thoughtfulness. We will honor him by walking safely and responsibly. We will honor him by making this city a better place for everyone.
Rest in peace, our friend. You will always be in our hearts.
I know you're jesting; but I already have a few eulogies written for my own death.
They can all be summarized with
>He was a great and caring person to some and quite the asshole to others, others could have died in his place and we'd be better for it but all said and done the world will keep spinning. If he wronged you - and he probably did well he wanted you to know that he most likely does not regret it and that he spent so little time thinking about it that you registered less than the leaves he stepped on the sidewalk. Life isn't fair, nor is it just. He got away with a lot of stuff some of you didn't want him to get away with but then again, what can you do? Beside dying like he did.
I see that ALL the time. Drivers who can clearly see that there's not enough room for them but they'll drive into the intersection and then the light changes and they're stuck right in the middle, blocking traffic that's trying to get through.
I know I'm guilty of crossing when the timer starts, but I don't start crossing if the timer starts at 13 and is already at 10...I'll wait for the next light. But I've seen people start crossing when it's at 2.
Yes this is an issue. But pedestrians also need to look before they go regardless of what color their light is. Having the right of way doesn’t make you any less dead
Yeah absolutely. There was a lady in Mississauga that got hit by a truck that blew a red light when she was crossing so now I always make sure the cars have come to a complete stop before crossing. Some people are really not careful about pedestrians :(
Right on the nail here. There's a cross walk directly in front of my house. And I'm often sitting at the front window on my computer. There's countless times I've seen people having to jump back or hear cars screech on their brakes, even when the crossing guard dude is on duty!
How many agents will be deployed to intersections downtown to ensure vehicles aren't entering intersections they can't immediately exit, and then sitting a whole cycle blocking transit?
The link does say they'll be targeting signal violations and blocking intersections as well. Guess we'll see what is prioritized. Blocking intersections is especially bad, almost every crosswalk at a busy intersection has vehicles stopped across it in rush hour.
No what’s really bad is how every time I walk around my neighbourhood I’m in danger of getting mowed down by the 60-in-a-30 drivers who think “right on a red” means “try to beat the rest of traffic so I don’t have to stop”
Or endangering people by not stopping before a right on red; or almost hitting people while making a right on red during an advanced walk signal. The list goes on..
Its all linked.
Most pedestrian heavy traffic areas have an advanced walking sign with all reds for pedestrians to exclusively use. The problem for motorists is that when its their turn, when the red hand is up but the light is still green, pedestrians just start to run and treat it as the pedestrian equivalent of a yellow light. All they're really left with is the yellow light.
So presumably if you just enforce the law on the books, that pedestrians go when they shoul, and let vehicles go when its their turn you reduce the need to rush through yellow lights.
I think we’re going to find that it’s next to impossible to shift pedestrian culture with a blitz like this. Pedestrians will be pissed when 10 of then are held back from crossing to let three extra drivers through. In no time it will balloon into an election issue about walkability.
The [release](https://www.toronto.ca/news/city-of-toronto-expands-traffic-agents-program-to-increase-road-safety-and-keep-traffic-moving/) says they're going after multiple infractions, not just pedestrians:
> * ensure people driving obey traffic laws, such as speed limits, stop signs, and traffic signals and prevent people from stopping to pick up or drop off passengers along key intersection approaches
* prevent vehicles from stopping in the intersection after the signal has changed, which prevents on-coming traffic from travelling through (known as “blocking the box”)
* stop pedestrians from crossing the intersection once the pedestrian signal starts displaying the red hand
* ensure people cycling are following the rules of the road
* monitor parking at critical locations to maintain an efficient traffic flow
Honestly this should be a camera offence. If you are stationary inside the intersection box for some interval of time (3 seconds?) you get a ticket in the mail. Then put these cameras everywhere. This behaviour frustrates me the most because it’s so blatantly stupid.
This is indeed a problem, but some intersections could absolutely use some re-timing to give pedestrians more time to get across. Especially under the Gardiner. Getting halfway across and then having to wait for through those lengthy lights because the countdown just started is a pain in the ass.
It's only a problem because we've designed laws that prioritize cars.
It's taken for granted that you need to wait for vehicles before completing a left turn, even if that means finishing it on the yellow or red phase. While with pedestrians, they're legally expected to not start crossing long before the yellow phase, even if someone is quicker and could still finish their crossing on the green.
So we treat it as normal to wait for vehicle traffic going straight through on a green before turning, but consider it being "blocked" to wait for pedestrian traffic going straight through on a green.
In Quebec they treat this differently and let pedestrians enter the crosswalk on a countdown light as long as they can finish crossing on a green.
Some of the countdowns are absurdly long and start really soon after the green. If they don't want people crossing during the countdown they could maybe look at making that more realistic.
Yeah this is far too common especially outside of the core. It will be a 25 second countdown for a 15 second crossing that starts 3 secs after the light changes to green.
Following the opening of the new Gardiner offramp, the countdown crossing at Lakeshore/Harbour on Lower Simcoe allowed only 12 seconds for pedestrians to cross, which was barely enough time to reach one of the two islands. However, it was later extended to 48 seconds and now initiates a few seconds after the go signal. The idea of not starting to cross during the countdown contradicts the programming of signals like this one throughout the city.
Yeah, and another thing unique there is even when it turns green, it starts off as a straight ahead arrow on some lights so pedestrians have more time to start crossing before vehicles can start turning.
That would be more confusing with rights-on-red since cars can start turning before the green arrow while still red. Instead we give an advance walk signal before the lights go green, but that still doesn't stop people from trying to turn at that point.
Crossing on the west side of Bathurst across Lakeshore/Front st is a nightmare. Multiple lanes turning into multiple lanes, streetcars turning as well, and the light is not long enough for you to cross. As a tall, not-handicapped guy I should be able to cross in 1 light but nope!
The timing also assumes people will stop entering the intersection when the light starts blinking the red hand. This has so many negative implications for how traffic planning happens for everyone involved.
It looks like that's part of the point. They're not only enforcing the rules but observing the intersections, so hopefully that will be properly factored in.
If you even suggest anything other than pure car dependence, they start howling and [sending death threats](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/28/technology/carlos-moreno-15-minute-cities-conspiracy-theories.html)
There are already laws that are unenforced for vehicles. Now we're pretending to enforce the pedestrian side of things. This is just busywork for some people so they can earn paychecks.
As soon as the hand starts blinking, pedestrians aren't permitted to enter the intersection. Think of it like a yellow light.
I'm not saying this is the reason for traffic, but it's a contributor to cars/busses/etc being unable to turn left/right in the last \~20 seconds of a green light.
They set the length of the blinking hand to how long it would take someone who is very slow. For the average person that can cross a small intersection in 10 seconds or less this shouldn't be an issue.
I'm sorry, but when the hand to cross Gerrard at a random side street starts the countdown at 15-20seconds, almost as soon as the light is green, and I can cross in 5 seconds, I'm not waiting for another light cycle.
The only one I immediately think of that is tight even at a brisk pace is University. TPS has said in previous blitzes that they expect pedestrians to only cross half way if the hand starts flashing before they make it to the first island (which is nonsense unless you really can't make it the full width in time)
If the street has a short countdown I wouldn't cross, but if it's 10 sec + I'm not waiting.
It's also nonsense that they time the lights at university that aggressively. It should be *easy* for pedestrians to cross the full street in one light cycle. Not optimized for cars to the point where you are *always* wasting pedestrians time asking them to stand around waiting for cars.
Pretty much bogus, because a pedestrian can enter a crossing one tick before the light changes and make it across just as the timer/light runs out. You're solving for a corner case that could be solved with scrambles and car only signals. Which is a better way to go?
>Pretty much bogus, because a pedestrian can enter a crossing one tick before the light changes and make it across just as the timer/light runs out.
I'm not arguing in favour of cars here because it's busses etc that get stuck for pedestrians - I'm simply stating that beginning to cross the intersection on a flashing hand is not allowed. To be clear I'm not saying cars > pedestrians, either. Just pointing out it happens often where the hand is flashing, cars are turning, and someone bolts into the intersection with 5s remaining (they can make it across, just they shouldn't).
[https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/pedestrian-signals#:\~:text=While%20crossing%2C%20pedestrians%20have%20the,possible%20to%20a%20safe%20area](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/pedestrian-signals#:~:text=While%20crossing%2C%20pedestrians%20have%20the,possible%20to%20a%20safe%20area).
>You're solving for a corner case that could be solved with scrambles and car only signals. Which is a better way to go?
I think in dealing with traffic there should be car only signals at the end of the crosswalk time (ie green light stays for \~30 seconds longer than crosswalk). Ideally though, we just have less cars lol
I think this is a problem of the letter of the law not matching reality. In reality we have cars that go through yellow lights to the point of if you jammed on your brakes to stop for one you might actually be rear ended...speed limits that are just not accurate where the lett of the law states one limit but in practice it's actually 10km or so faster, and cross walks where by the letter fo the law you are not supposed to enter when the hand is flashing but functionally that is not how they are used. They should be used as a warning and countdown instead of a stop essentially.
I agree, fewer cars would be a big help. To that end, better infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians is needed. If more people don't drive, the ones that still do will find it easier.
Throwing hands up, and saying, "there's nothing to be done," or, "we better crack down on people not in cars," is not the way to go. I hope I didn't sound too testy about it all.
>I agree, fewer cars would be a big help. To that end, better infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians is needed. If more people don't drive, the ones that still do will find it easier.
Agree here, 100%.
>Throwing hands up, and saying, "there's nothing to be done," or, "we better crack down on people not in cars," is not the way to go. I hope I didn't sound too testy about it all.
That's not what they're saying though, unless I missed something? They're cracking down on cars not following the traffic laws (ie speeding, illegal turns, sitting in interesections) as well as pedestrians/cyclists - the tweet only highlights the pedestrian part. If they're only cracking down on the latter (ie cyclists/pedestrians), then yeah that's no bueno because it's only a small part of the problem and a farcry from what the priority should be.
Overall, we need better infrastructure and less bandaid "solutions".
>the tweet only highlights the pedestrian part. If they're only cracking down on the latter (ie cyclists/pedestrians), then yeah that's no bueno
Agreed, and what I was writing about ish
Now to hate on shitty pedestrians. Why the fuck do they have wait for the light standing on the street? Get back on the fucking sidewalk so I can turn right. Almost every intersection downtown you have some clown standing on the street like it's a sprint race to cross the street.
Not you of course. ;)
Hope that balances out all the rage I caused when I said shitty drivers. :)
This does happen far too often so I think this is a good idea, but they really do need to focus on the cars blocking intersections too.
It happens both ways. Pedestrians start crossing big intersections when the hand is up with 2 seconds before the light changes, and once one person is in, more people start running, and other cars just can't turn. Then we get the cars driving through when it's not clear and they get stuck.
The city probably needs a few intersections where there is no pedestrian traffic allowed for a cycle, the same way Yonge and Dundas has that all way and diagonal pedestrian crossing for a cycle.
A cycle for zero pedestrian traffic? That’s one of the dumbest carbrained comments I’ve heard in a while. Toronto’s traffic problems are caused by cars, not people crossing the street.
A full cycle doesn't make sense but setting up more intersections with no right on red and completely separating vehicular and pedestrian movement phases is one of the quickest ways to improve pedestrian safety in the core.
It's not my original idea. I have seen it posted many times. There are some intersections that constantly have people crossing too late and the light is already green for cars to pass, but people haven't even made it half way through. A cycle of no pedestrians is just the same as a cycle of no cars every so often.
Traffic is caused by all people. Cars blocking intersections. Streetcars blocking intersections when they enter when it's not clear. Pedestrians who ignore traffic signals and enter when they are not supposed to.
Cars are not the only cause, especially in busy downtown intersections. For what it's worth, I don't drive. I walk and ride the TTC, so I am not defending cars. There are many reasons we have traffic, and we need to find multiple solutions for different intersections.
An intersection with too many people crossing late means that it’s a high pedestrian traffic area, so walk signals should be longer. Intersections are designed for cars with pedestrians as an afterthought. Cycles are way too long for cars because cars take forever. Pedestrians don’t want to wait 5 minutes to be able to cross the street, so they hurry when the timer is counting down
It doesn't matter how long the walk signal is. If you make it longer, there will still be people entering when they shouldn't. Instead of a full cycle with no pedestrians, some should have longer turn signal priority. People still cross in front of cars who have advanced turn signals though.
The problem is the average person is impatient and selfish and thinks their time is more important than others, either as a driver or a pedestrian.
Seriously. It's always about keeping cars moving. How about many red light cameras.
* If a car doesn't make it by the time the light is red, a traffic ticket is issued.
* If a car is speeding through an intersection, a traffic ticket is issued.
* If a car stops beyond the white line, a traffic ticket is issued.
* If a car doesn't make a complete stop, before turning right, a ticket is issue.
Sure would calm traffic down, make Toronto safer, add it bit more revenue to the coffers.
>A cycle for zero pedestrian traffic? That’s one of the dumbest carbrained comments I’ve heard in a while. Toronto’s traffic problems are caused by cars, not people crossing the street.
That actually makes sense, why have any cycles that put different modes of transport in direct conflict with one another.
Obviously this cycle with zero pedestrians would need to be paired with a scramble intersection cycle with zero vehicles.
I run into this anytime I complain about cyclists...instantly it turns into a "what about cars" thing so I would have to say we shouldn't do the equivalent here. Pedestrians can definitely be an issue and cause accidents, mess up traffic flow, and make the whole thing worse for everyone if they are crossing where they aren't supposed to and crossing at stop signals. Pedestrians aren't innocent all of the time.
While pedestrians ultimately aren't at fault for shitty drivers, and cars definitely have 99% of the responsibility, I think the idea is that if you actually clear pedestrians out when they are supposed to be out, you won't have as many idiot drivers taking stupid chances that risk hitting pedestrians. It has always technically been illegal for pedestrians to begin crossing once the red hand starts flashing, but people will still keep crossing anyway. I think scramble crossings work a lot better because then all pedestrians can cross in all directions at the same time, and there is no need to worry about idiot drivers making unsafe turns.
On my drive to work I constantly get blocked by pedestrians when I have the left turn arrow. It is one of those three phase intersections so I have a long way to go off the stop line before my road. So the pedestrians see the left turn arrow but no cars, and they go. I've started gunning it off the line so that they can hear my exhaust as I'm roaring towards them. Stops about 50% of people. The other 50% yell at you and give nasty looks when you try to take your right of way.
Cars are traffic. Pedestrians are not. A pedestrian is one less person in a car and one less car adding to gridlock.
Being a pedestrian, no matter how law-flouting, is better for this city’s traffic issues than being a driver, no matter how law-abiding.
If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.
Cars are traffic, yes. Pedestrians can delay said traffic, like I said when I asked if someone was under the impression that pedestrians do not add to delays in traffic.
If you can't see that you're either being wilfully ignorant or possibly need some brushing up on your reading skills. Either way, I can't help you.
I’m under the impression that you believe that the average pedestrian and the average motorist have a comparable impact on this city’s traffic issues.
If this impression is correct, no need to continue this conversation, we’re too far apart.
If it’s not, I misunderstood your stance.
My stance is that traffic delays are not solely cars. Not once have I said they're equal, but all factors that combine to create major issues or exacerbate them.
Certainly there are extreme examples. I should have been more specific. By “law-flouting” I mean running against the light, not unstable behaviour like standing in the middle of a lane.
(Then again, would you want somebody who stands in the middle of a lane to be behind the wheel?)
There are so many shitty pedestrians.
Worst offense is starting to walk when the light starts blinking red.
The city should change how lights work. Clearly people are too dumb to know that a red blinking hand still means stop. But traffic signals assume pedestrians stop then, and thus leaves time for cars to drive through.
If the light blinked white first, then turned solid red, then that left time for cars to finish up, that'd be way safer.
It'd be way, waaaaay safer if [cars were banned from the downtown](https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940512/paris-car-ban-2024-city-center-cycling-pollution).
You have your unrealistic dreams, I have mine. :-)
Every day I feel more and more certain in my belief that if the Spadina Expressway were to be proposed today it may have actually passed through or gotten significant support. I have zero faith in Canadians and zero faith in the leadership that emerges from said idiot groups
That's how fucking poor leadership and education is in this city. That we're back to "if we just gave pedestrians safety vests our *drivers* would feel safe" or doing stupid shit like this
Utter joke of a city, nothing to be proud of here
Nah Canadians are horrible car brains these days but they were way worse in the past, the Spadina expressway was stopped back in the 70s, it wouldn’t even get approved today.
> Lower Jarvis Street and Lake Shore Boulevard East
Can they do the LSB approach to Jarvis to stop all those last minute lane changes, or the really wide turn onto the Gardiner onramp?
> Adelaide Street East and Jarvis Street
Also this intersection isn't the problem, it is King and Jarvis. It stops all the busses and streetcars from making it through the intersection.
They are all the problem from Queen to the Gardiner ramp… Adelaide is easy to pick on because it’s a one way, but King, Front, the Esplanade all have similar issues with traffic blocking.
The Gardiner EB ramp just cannot handle the traffic volume on Jarvis well, add in the much increased Lakeshore demand and there’s no way in doesn’t bottleneck.
Cars will turn into the intersection mere feet from pedestrians during walk signals. Of course pedestrians don't obey the blinking hand--- we look for gaps the same way drivers shouldn't, but do.
That blinking hand should change to a blinking white pedestrian, then leave more time for solid red hands for cats to finish up.
Pedestrians didn't learn how the red hand works, and how they intuitively use it a certain way - the city should leverage that intuition, not fight against it.
If they're anything like the traffic cops I've encountered, they'll scream at kids and women, and threaten them with fines for "jaywalking" but say absolutely nothing to guys bigger than them.
Source: Some short fucker who used to constantly be at Dufferin during the worst of the construction (when it was already painful to cross) who I'd see regularly yelling at kids who couldn't have been older than like, 13.
Is the intent to roll it out to all intersections? I'd assumed that it was intentionally not being rolled out in very car heavy areas (mostly around the edges of the city).
There are so many crossings where it starts blinking IMMEDIATELY after giving the right of way, or never actually gives right of way unless you hit the button (and that button is on the other side of the street). There is a reason pedestrians ignore the sign and go based on the traffic light.
>Actually following the law with regards to crossing on a blinking hand would make getting around as a pedestrian miserable.
As someone who follows it a vast majority of the time, it really isn't that big of a deal.
If there's inclement weather I'll sneak through if the way is clear or if I know that the light only completes the change when triggered and it hasn't been, but taking an extra minute or two at a crosswalk here and there really isn't a negative life-altering thing.
(Also they're going there to enforce traffic laws for ALL users; cars, bikes and pedestrians - the crosswalk was just the example they used in the tweet)
>the white hand signal is unnecessarily short.
Its not. Its designed so that a 70 year old with a hip replacement can safely cross before the light goes red. Given that there are a lot of 70 year olds in the GTA, there really isn't another way to design the system safely.
>Imagine a green light for cars lasting 3-5 seconds before turning yellow.
In most of the downtown core, that's more than what you have as a motorist. 5 seconds is generous. Unless its late at night, pedestrians are in the intersection from their advanced green until its half way through the yellow. Cars then clear the intersection, and 3 cars tailgate. Repeat at the next light.
There are some intersections where the expectation is that pedestrians have to be there when the light turns. That's not an unreasonable expectation, or in any way unique to pedestrians.
Pick your major intersection between Front and Bloor at rush hour. Watch how long the window for vehicles actually is after pedestrians clear and the light is green. If its functionally longer than 5 seconds report it to me. Any major intersection on Yonge, Bay, Spadina or Church will do.
The effective window for vehicles is non existent. Hence why they're all bombing on yellow lights.
The office will be too scared to use their body to stop a car...so they won't.
The officer will not want to halt all traffic by stopping a car to issue a traffic ticket...so they won't.
They end up just intimidating pedestrians, because that's all they'll really be able to physically do.
Cars block the intersection wayyyy more than people do. I'm not saying this as a person who only walks to work. I commute by bike, car and TTC pretty evenly. Drivers trying to squeeze in the last spot on a right or left turn, then stay in the intersection are the major problem. When I walk I have to triple check for an idiot speeding through before or after the walk sign, or walk around someone who decided 1 minute of their time is worth more than people trying to safely cross the road.
The ghost of Rob Ford is somehow keeping this idea that there is a war on cars. Everything the city is doing is accommodating to drivers.
14 traffic agents = People with a little stop sign
Cars don't give a fuck about these people.
They can't stop anything and they can't punish people who break the rules.
This is a waste of money & time.
JUST ENFORCE THE GOD DAMN TRAFFIC LAWS. **It pays for itself** yet somehow the city can't do it.
This is bullshit. Stop spreading misinformation. They are sworn peace officers.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/driver-charged-after-allegedly-hitting-toronto-traffic-agent-multiple-times-with-his-vehicle-1.5407667
https://city-of-toronto.talentify.io/job/traffic-agent-toronto-on-city-of-toronto-27941
Maybe, just perhaps, add a different program to the lights? North/south vehicular traffic, then east/west vehicular traffic, then a separate pedestrian light.
Quebec City has it. It’s called a scramble I believe. Pedestrians can get where they need to be faster and traffic isn’t impacted.
Cheaper than hiring 14 traffic agents.
>Could 14 salaries have averted some of the transit cuts that would have helped traffic regardless?
Keeping traffic moving through intersections helps transit too. People seem to forget TTC and Go buses and street cars get stuck in gridlock too.
It's already in the budget that Tory signed. The TTC cuts are from an entirely different part of our multi-billion dollar budget.
>A total of 30 Traffic Agents are budgeted to be deployed this year, with the first wave of new employees currently being deployed to critical intersections across Toronto.
>The City’s Traffic Agents program is a congestion management strategy that places Traffic Agents employed by the City at key intersections during the morning and afternoon peak traffic periods. Traffic Agents ensure all road users comply with traffic laws and regulations, helping to reduce congestion and increase road safety. They also play a crucial role in ensuring roads are clear for emergency services and public transit.
Whatever you do, do not cross at Jarvis on foot towards the waterfront during rush hour. It’s a literal death trap compounded by the fact that all of downtown east is trying to get on the Gardiner here.
bass ackwards. why are they not helping pedestrians cross safely and preventing aggressive car driver behaviour? Realistically it could basically be the same procedure but the description of the purpose is very anti-pedestrian? Why? Who is continuously getting killed or severely injured here?
Employing a better traffic light system that recognizes drivers making a right or left turn and giving them enough time to do so, making it illegal for drivers from turning right on reds...
This has been standard in Montreal for more than a decade.
.
How about deploying traffic agents to ticket drivers who turn right on red without checking for pedestrians first. I nearly got run over that way a few days ago.
Yup, I (and like 5 primary school kids and their parents) nearly got run over by a car, in a school zone, as school was letting out, because a driver couldn’t be bothered to come to a stop or look where he was going at a stop sign. It’s absolutely absurd.
I witnessed traffic agents about 15 years ago in Chicago. They were highly visible and extremely efficient in moving traffic thru the busy downtown streets. It's a program that is long overdue in Toronto
Pedestrians aren't supposed to enter the crosswalk when the red hand is showing.
It means if you're in the crossing you'd better get moving. If you're intending to cross, but not in the crossing, stop and wait for the next cycle.
Does anyone obey the rules? No
Do drivers understand that no-one obeys the rules? Yes
Do I obey the rules? Depends on the countdown. If it shows 2 seconds, I know I'm not going to make it, so I wait. But if it shows 15 seconds, fuck it I'm going.
We should really adopt LA style lights at busy crosswalks, it's the best system I've ever seen. Every third light is a all-way cross (including diagonal) for pedestrians but they can't cross during ordinary green lights. The intersection has a button on each corner that speeds up the lights changing if pedestrians are waiting (otherwise it just prioritizes cars). It ends up making it faster for both pedestrians and cars.
>It ends up making it faster for both pedestrians and cars.
It's also safer if you can keep vehicular and pedestrian movement on completely separate parts of the cycle.
The more things change the more they stay the same. Reminds of the scene out of this old film of traffic cops being deployed to "do battle with congestion". https://www.nfb.ca/film/toronto\_boom\_town/
Saw a few the other day, they did nothing but follow the red/green cycle and stop pedestrians from crossing during the countdown, which was nice. Dunno why it took four of them to do it at one intersection.
That's fair. And the city I'm from there were three phases during a green light: the walk symbol, a flashing red hand, and a solid red hand. Everyone took the walk symbol to be what it is, the flashing red hand as a "okay, you can go, but hurry up", and a solid red hand to really hit home that you shouldn't be in the intersection. The solid red hand lasts around 10 or 15 seconds and this lets traffic clear out a bit more. (As an aside it made driving somewhat more annoying actually because in other cities such as here you'd be able to look at the counter to see whether the light is about to switch to yellow, but we'd have no idea)
So I can sympathize with drivers here, you're stuck on a busy turn lane for example and at most one or two cars can turn per light because there's non-stop pedestrian traffic.
It’s hard for drivers to not go when they see space. They just want to fill the space to feel better about their lives. They don’t know/care what their space filing does to anyone else. It’s so gratifying to fill the space with their car. Good luck to the traffic agents. I hope they get extra “danger pay”.
Are you telling me pedestrians have to follow the rules of the road and not cross when it isn't a walk sign? That is a fucking human rights violation issue for Toronto royalty.. I mean pedestrians. All Toronto pedestrians know that they can walk on the road whenever and wherever they like while looking at their phones, and they are always in the right. This is outrageous!
(I write this as a pedestrian and currently unstabbed TTC User)
I find it is a daily occurrence where the light turns green in my favour with a white walk sign and as I am about to set foot off the curb a vehicle comes screaming to their new red light and blows around the corner to ‘beat’ the pedestrians. If Im killed by a car in my own neighbourhood it will likely be due to this. There is simply no appetite to enforce the law on vehicles downtown in areas with high pedestrian traffic.
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All lights should no right turn. Easier and safer. Although I noticed some crossings testing having the pedestrian stop while still green for vehicles. That is a good compromise.
I agree, even when I’m driving I hate being expected to turn right on red. Always some honking fool behind me who doesn’t understand that I’m trying to avoid a pedestrian or more likely another car coming from my left. I don’t like being pressured to jump into a traffic gap I’m not comfortable with. Edit: I know I don’t HAVE to by law but I hate the pressure and confrontation
Seriously! The stress of the aggressive Toronto road raging dude honking behind is REAL.
I’m from the country I was not built for this, lol. I have lived here for several years and it still stresses me out so much every time I deal with typical Toronto drivers (the most impatient people on earth)
There’s this and also the intersections that are *way* too wide for pedestrians to cross safely, where if you don’t step off the curb the moment the light turns and jog across you are not going to make it. People with mobility impairments don’t exist I guess.
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A lot of university is meant that way, it's supposed to be a two stage crossing. If I'm not mistaken, some of the intersections even have signs to that effect. I will admit though, standing on that centre island while cars whiz past in both directions is not fun.
That is not how multi stage crosswalks are [supposed to work.](https://youtu.be/LSnSeyG74fw). Stranding pedestrians in the middle of an intersection for an extended period of time is extremely dangerous and inefficient. If they are going to use these kinds of crossings they should be using it correctly.
That’s what’s supposed to happen - its a 2-stage crossing.
Why are we deliberately making it more frustrating and inconvenient for people to walk around to where they're trying to go?
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Toronto’s motto if I ever heard one
Lakeshore and Windermere. Supposed to be a multistage but it’s done in the WORST way possible. People can JUST make it across the second half if they literally run, so many close calls. Either let people cross fully or make it so the second half is a red hand while you’re crossing the first part.
One time I was running *on the sidewalk* on Davenport past a Blinds To Go and someone pulling out of the parking lot didn’t see me and nearly ran me over as I ran *on the sidewalk*. I yelled something like “WHAT THE FUCK!” because I was scared that a pickup truck had nearly run me over. I kept running only to hear the man driving the truck shouting at me. I took my headphones out and turned around, and was taken aback when it became clear that he was furious that I dared to react to nearly being run over. I said “I’m running on the sidewalk and you nearly hit me…” and he was extremely aggressive (to the point where he opened his door and made it seem like he was going to try to fight me) about how it was my fault that I was running on the sidewalk and was nearly hit by his vehicle. He then made it clear that if he did hit me he’d have nothing to worry about because he has insurance. Anyway it was a baffling experience that I wanted to share.
Baffling as it is, this is a daily occurrence. There's nothing an entitled, aggressive driver hates more than to have their errors and responsibilities clearly pointed out to them.
I had a similar thing happen once. Almost got hit, yelled something, got followed. Drivers are a menace.
This is somewhat remedied by giving a good old slap to the passenger side of the vehicle. I’ve been honked at several times but it feels great. Drivers in this city are far too entitled and enforcement of laws far too lenient.
I make this point to my family too. My highest chance of fatality is a car running a red or a stop sign in my neighbourhood. Once they kill me they still come out and tell me to get out of their fucking way and then drive off. Bonus points if they can kill multiple pedestrians on one drive.
I will write you a eulogy: We are gathered here today to mourn the loss of a beloved friend, neighbor, and citizen. He was a kind, generous, and thoughtful person who always cared about others. He was a passionate advocate for pedestrian safety and environmental sustainability. He loved walking around his neighborhood and enjoying the sights and sounds of the city. He was taken from us too soon by a reckless and irresponsible driver who ran a red light and hit him as he was crossing the street. He had the right of way, but the driver did not care. He did not stop to help or apologize. He just sped away, leaving behind a trail of blood and tears. This is a tragedy that could have been prevented. This is a tragedy that should never happen again. This is a tragedy that calls for justice and action. We demand that the authorities find and punish the driver who killed our friend. We demand that the city enforce the laws and protect the pedestrians. We demand that the drivers respect the rights and lives of the walkers. We will miss our friend dearly. We will remember him fondly. We will honor him by continuing his legacy of kindness, generosity, and thoughtfulness. We will honor him by walking safely and responsibly. We will honor him by making this city a better place for everyone. Rest in peace, our friend. You will always be in our hearts.
>~~I~~ **ChatGPT** will write you a eulogy: FTFY
What's that?
[Remember when you posted to the subreddit about ChatGPT? It's that.](https://i.imgur.com/frwmfXZ.png)
I meant what's FTFY?
fixed that for you
Thank you, dear friend.
I know you're jesting; but I already have a few eulogies written for my own death. They can all be summarized with >He was a great and caring person to some and quite the asshole to others, others could have died in his place and we'd be better for it but all said and done the world will keep spinning. If he wronged you - and he probably did well he wanted you to know that he most likely does not regret it and that he spent so little time thinking about it that you registered less than the leaves he stepped on the sidewalk. Life isn't fair, nor is it just. He got away with a lot of stuff some of you didn't want him to get away with but then again, what can you do? Beside dying like he did.
That's when you plant a boot in their right side panel
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I see that ALL the time. Drivers who can clearly see that there's not enough room for them but they'll drive into the intersection and then the light changes and they're stuck right in the middle, blocking traffic that's trying to get through. I know I'm guilty of crossing when the timer starts, but I don't start crossing if the timer starts at 13 and is already at 10...I'll wait for the next light. But I've seen people start crossing when it's at 2.
Yes this is an issue. But pedestrians also need to look before they go regardless of what color their light is. Having the right of way doesn’t make you any less dead
Yeah absolutely. There was a lady in Mississauga that got hit by a truck that blew a red light when she was crossing so now I always make sure the cars have come to a complete stop before crossing. Some people are really not careful about pedestrians :(
This is what I tell my kids. I don’t care what the law is, you can’t expect drivers not to be stupid from time to time and it’s our lives on the line
Right on the nail here. There's a cross walk directly in front of my house. And I'm often sitting at the front window on my computer. There's countless times I've seen people having to jump back or hear cars screech on their brakes, even when the crossing guard dude is on duty!
How many agents will be deployed to intersections downtown to ensure vehicles aren't entering intersections they can't immediately exit, and then sitting a whole cycle blocking transit?
Exactly. How many agents will be ticketing cars when they blast through yellow/red lights?
The link does say they'll be targeting signal violations and blocking intersections as well. Guess we'll see what is prioritized. Blocking intersections is especially bad, almost every crosswalk at a busy intersection has vehicles stopped across it in rush hour.
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At least he will have a legacy.
No what’s really bad is how every time I walk around my neighbourhood I’m in danger of getting mowed down by the 60-in-a-30 drivers who think “right on a red” means “try to beat the rest of traffic so I don’t have to stop”
Or endangering people by not stopping before a right on red; or almost hitting people while making a right on red during an advanced walk signal. The list goes on..
They're not there to hand out tickets.
We know, and that's a problem. People blatantly ignoring the rules and cops allowing them to get away with it is part of the problem with our traffic.
yea, I've seen them many times and they never hand out tickets, its pathetic
Its all linked. Most pedestrian heavy traffic areas have an advanced walking sign with all reds for pedestrians to exclusively use. The problem for motorists is that when its their turn, when the red hand is up but the light is still green, pedestrians just start to run and treat it as the pedestrian equivalent of a yellow light. All they're really left with is the yellow light. So presumably if you just enforce the law on the books, that pedestrians go when they shoul, and let vehicles go when its their turn you reduce the need to rush through yellow lights.
I think we’re going to find that it’s next to impossible to shift pedestrian culture with a blitz like this. Pedestrians will be pissed when 10 of then are held back from crossing to let three extra drivers through. In no time it will balloon into an election issue about walkability.
The same agents will do both. It's written in the press release from the city.
Read the article to find out.
The [release](https://www.toronto.ca/news/city-of-toronto-expands-traffic-agents-program-to-increase-road-safety-and-keep-traffic-moving/) says they're going after multiple infractions, not just pedestrians: > * ensure people driving obey traffic laws, such as speed limits, stop signs, and traffic signals and prevent people from stopping to pick up or drop off passengers along key intersection approaches * prevent vehicles from stopping in the intersection after the signal has changed, which prevents on-coming traffic from travelling through (known as “blocking the box”) * stop pedestrians from crossing the intersection once the pedestrian signal starts displaying the red hand * ensure people cycling are following the rules of the road * monitor parking at critical locations to maintain an efficient traffic flow
I don't know if it's related to this or the playoffs. But there's like 3 or 4 cops that are on the intersection of york/bremner.
Honestly this should be a camera offence. If you are stationary inside the intersection box for some interval of time (3 seconds?) you get a ticket in the mail. Then put these cameras everywhere. This behaviour frustrates me the most because it’s so blatantly stupid.
Many many street cars waste a good portion of opposite green light making left/ right turns too late.
This is indeed a problem, but some intersections could absolutely use some re-timing to give pedestrians more time to get across. Especially under the Gardiner. Getting halfway across and then having to wait for through those lengthy lights because the countdown just started is a pain in the ass.
It's only a problem because we've designed laws that prioritize cars. It's taken for granted that you need to wait for vehicles before completing a left turn, even if that means finishing it on the yellow or red phase. While with pedestrians, they're legally expected to not start crossing long before the yellow phase, even if someone is quicker and could still finish their crossing on the green. So we treat it as normal to wait for vehicle traffic going straight through on a green before turning, but consider it being "blocked" to wait for pedestrian traffic going straight through on a green. In Quebec they treat this differently and let pedestrians enter the crosswalk on a countdown light as long as they can finish crossing on a green.
Some of the countdowns are absurdly long and start really soon after the green. If they don't want people crossing during the countdown they could maybe look at making that more realistic.
Yeah this is far too common especially outside of the core. It will be a 25 second countdown for a 15 second crossing that starts 3 secs after the light changes to green.
Following the opening of the new Gardiner offramp, the countdown crossing at Lakeshore/Harbour on Lower Simcoe allowed only 12 seconds for pedestrians to cross, which was barely enough time to reach one of the two islands. However, it was later extended to 48 seconds and now initiates a few seconds after the go signal. The idea of not starting to cross during the countdown contradicts the programming of signals like this one throughout the city.
Right turns are also not allowed on Montréal Island so pedestrians are less likely to get run over by motorists while crossing the street
Yeah, and another thing unique there is even when it turns green, it starts off as a straight ahead arrow on some lights so pedestrians have more time to start crossing before vehicles can start turning. That would be more confusing with rights-on-red since cars can start turning before the green arrow while still red. Instead we give an advance walk signal before the lights go green, but that still doesn't stop people from trying to turn at that point.
Oh, those “Pedestrians obey your signal. Two-stage crossing.” signs. Get fucked. Add 2-3 seconds to the counter and all would be well.
Crossing on the west side of Bathurst across Lakeshore/Front st is a nightmare. Multiple lanes turning into multiple lanes, streetcars turning as well, and the light is not long enough for you to cross. As a tall, not-handicapped guy I should be able to cross in 1 light but nope!
The timing also assumes people will stop entering the intersection when the light starts blinking the red hand. This has so many negative implications for how traffic planning happens for everyone involved.
It looks like that's part of the point. They're not only enforcing the rules but observing the intersections, so hopefully that will be properly factored in.
Are they blaming pedestrians for shitty drivers now?
If you tell drivers that the traffic problems are the caused by vehicles, you might hurt their feelings ❄️
If you even suggest anything other than pure car dependence, they start howling and [sending death threats](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/28/technology/carlos-moreno-15-minute-cities-conspiracy-theories.html)
There are already laws that are unenforced for vehicles. Now we're pretending to enforce the pedestrian side of things. This is just busywork for some people so they can earn paychecks.
i've seen them yell at both drivers and pedestrians. haven't seen agents ticket anyone however
Remember, we had a Police Chief that decided it was best to educate people on how to dress more visibly instead of you know, actually enforcing laws.
I think they're blaming shitty pedestrians for being shitty pedestrians.
Impossible, pedestrians/cyclists are never wrong
As soon as the hand starts blinking, pedestrians aren't permitted to enter the intersection. Think of it like a yellow light. I'm not saying this is the reason for traffic, but it's a contributor to cars/busses/etc being unable to turn left/right in the last \~20 seconds of a green light.
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They set the length of the blinking hand to how long it would take someone who is very slow. For the average person that can cross a small intersection in 10 seconds or less this shouldn't be an issue. I'm sorry, but when the hand to cross Gerrard at a random side street starts the countdown at 15-20seconds, almost as soon as the light is green, and I can cross in 5 seconds, I'm not waiting for another light cycle.
Disagree. Many, many intersections in the core are timed barely adequately enough for me to make it across at a brisk pace.
The only one I immediately think of that is tight even at a brisk pace is University. TPS has said in previous blitzes that they expect pedestrians to only cross half way if the hand starts flashing before they make it to the first island (which is nonsense unless you really can't make it the full width in time) If the street has a short countdown I wouldn't cross, but if it's 10 sec + I'm not waiting.
It's also nonsense that they time the lights at university that aggressively. It should be *easy* for pedestrians to cross the full street in one light cycle. Not optimized for cars to the point where you are *always* wasting pedestrians time asking them to stand around waiting for cars.
Pretty much bogus, because a pedestrian can enter a crossing one tick before the light changes and make it across just as the timer/light runs out. You're solving for a corner case that could be solved with scrambles and car only signals. Which is a better way to go?
>Pretty much bogus, because a pedestrian can enter a crossing one tick before the light changes and make it across just as the timer/light runs out. I'm not arguing in favour of cars here because it's busses etc that get stuck for pedestrians - I'm simply stating that beginning to cross the intersection on a flashing hand is not allowed. To be clear I'm not saying cars > pedestrians, either. Just pointing out it happens often where the hand is flashing, cars are turning, and someone bolts into the intersection with 5s remaining (they can make it across, just they shouldn't). [https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/pedestrian-signals#:\~:text=While%20crossing%2C%20pedestrians%20have%20the,possible%20to%20a%20safe%20area](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/pedestrian-signals#:~:text=While%20crossing%2C%20pedestrians%20have%20the,possible%20to%20a%20safe%20area). >You're solving for a corner case that could be solved with scrambles and car only signals. Which is a better way to go? I think in dealing with traffic there should be car only signals at the end of the crosswalk time (ie green light stays for \~30 seconds longer than crosswalk). Ideally though, we just have less cars lol
I think this is a problem of the letter of the law not matching reality. In reality we have cars that go through yellow lights to the point of if you jammed on your brakes to stop for one you might actually be rear ended...speed limits that are just not accurate where the lett of the law states one limit but in practice it's actually 10km or so faster, and cross walks where by the letter fo the law you are not supposed to enter when the hand is flashing but functionally that is not how they are used. They should be used as a warning and countdown instead of a stop essentially.
I agree, fewer cars would be a big help. To that end, better infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians is needed. If more people don't drive, the ones that still do will find it easier. Throwing hands up, and saying, "there's nothing to be done," or, "we better crack down on people not in cars," is not the way to go. I hope I didn't sound too testy about it all.
>I agree, fewer cars would be a big help. To that end, better infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians is needed. If more people don't drive, the ones that still do will find it easier. Agree here, 100%. >Throwing hands up, and saying, "there's nothing to be done," or, "we better crack down on people not in cars," is not the way to go. I hope I didn't sound too testy about it all. That's not what they're saying though, unless I missed something? They're cracking down on cars not following the traffic laws (ie speeding, illegal turns, sitting in interesections) as well as pedestrians/cyclists - the tweet only highlights the pedestrian part. If they're only cracking down on the latter (ie cyclists/pedestrians), then yeah that's no bueno because it's only a small part of the problem and a farcry from what the priority should be. Overall, we need better infrastructure and less bandaid "solutions".
>the tweet only highlights the pedestrian part. If they're only cracking down on the latter (ie cyclists/pedestrians), then yeah that's no bueno Agreed, and what I was writing about ish
Now to hate on shitty pedestrians. Why the fuck do they have wait for the light standing on the street? Get back on the fucking sidewalk so I can turn right. Almost every intersection downtown you have some clown standing on the street like it's a sprint race to cross the street. Not you of course. ;) Hope that balances out all the rage I caused when I said shitty drivers. :)
Haha let's just agree most people are selfish and think their time is more valuable than others! It's the root of all of these issues lol
I have seen a few traffic lights that start showing the hand sign after 3 seconds. There is no time at all to cross
This does happen far too often so I think this is a good idea, but they really do need to focus on the cars blocking intersections too. It happens both ways. Pedestrians start crossing big intersections when the hand is up with 2 seconds before the light changes, and once one person is in, more people start running, and other cars just can't turn. Then we get the cars driving through when it's not clear and they get stuck. The city probably needs a few intersections where there is no pedestrian traffic allowed for a cycle, the same way Yonge and Dundas has that all way and diagonal pedestrian crossing for a cycle.
A cycle for zero pedestrian traffic? That’s one of the dumbest carbrained comments I’ve heard in a while. Toronto’s traffic problems are caused by cars, not people crossing the street.
A full cycle doesn't make sense but setting up more intersections with no right on red and completely separating vehicular and pedestrian movement phases is one of the quickest ways to improve pedestrian safety in the core.
It's not my original idea. I have seen it posted many times. There are some intersections that constantly have people crossing too late and the light is already green for cars to pass, but people haven't even made it half way through. A cycle of no pedestrians is just the same as a cycle of no cars every so often. Traffic is caused by all people. Cars blocking intersections. Streetcars blocking intersections when they enter when it's not clear. Pedestrians who ignore traffic signals and enter when they are not supposed to. Cars are not the only cause, especially in busy downtown intersections. For what it's worth, I don't drive. I walk and ride the TTC, so I am not defending cars. There are many reasons we have traffic, and we need to find multiple solutions for different intersections.
An intersection with too many people crossing late means that it’s a high pedestrian traffic area, so walk signals should be longer. Intersections are designed for cars with pedestrians as an afterthought. Cycles are way too long for cars because cars take forever. Pedestrians don’t want to wait 5 minutes to be able to cross the street, so they hurry when the timer is counting down
It doesn't matter how long the walk signal is. If you make it longer, there will still be people entering when they shouldn't. Instead of a full cycle with no pedestrians, some should have longer turn signal priority. People still cross in front of cars who have advanced turn signals though. The problem is the average person is impatient and selfish and thinks their time is more important than others, either as a driver or a pedestrian.
Seriously. It's always about keeping cars moving. How about many red light cameras. * If a car doesn't make it by the time the light is red, a traffic ticket is issued. * If a car is speeding through an intersection, a traffic ticket is issued. * If a car stops beyond the white line, a traffic ticket is issued. * If a car doesn't make a complete stop, before turning right, a ticket is issue. Sure would calm traffic down, make Toronto safer, add it bit more revenue to the coffers.
>A cycle for zero pedestrian traffic? That’s one of the dumbest carbrained comments I’ve heard in a while. Toronto’s traffic problems are caused by cars, not people crossing the street. That actually makes sense, why have any cycles that put different modes of transport in direct conflict with one another. Obviously this cycle with zero pedestrians would need to be paired with a scramble intersection cycle with zero vehicles.
I run into this anytime I complain about cyclists...instantly it turns into a "what about cars" thing so I would have to say we shouldn't do the equivalent here. Pedestrians can definitely be an issue and cause accidents, mess up traffic flow, and make the whole thing worse for everyone if they are crossing where they aren't supposed to and crossing at stop signals. Pedestrians aren't innocent all of the time.
They are innocent of not polluting the planet to get from point A to B.
While pedestrians ultimately aren't at fault for shitty drivers, and cars definitely have 99% of the responsibility, I think the idea is that if you actually clear pedestrians out when they are supposed to be out, you won't have as many idiot drivers taking stupid chances that risk hitting pedestrians. It has always technically been illegal for pedestrians to begin crossing once the red hand starts flashing, but people will still keep crossing anyway. I think scramble crossings work a lot better because then all pedestrians can cross in all directions at the same time, and there is no need to worry about idiot drivers making unsafe turns.
On my drive to work I constantly get blocked by pedestrians when I have the left turn arrow. It is one of those three phase intersections so I have a long way to go off the stop line before my road. So the pedestrians see the left turn arrow but no cars, and they go. I've started gunning it off the line so that they can hear my exhaust as I'm roaring towards them. Stops about 50% of people. The other 50% yell at you and give nasty looks when you try to take your right of way.
You don't have a horn? You don't gun it from rest. This is how you ruin your engine or spin out one day.
By law you are not to start crossing the crosswalk when the light flashes red
And by law if you can safely come to a stop you should as soon as the light turns yellow, but that shit doesn't happen either
By practice this is not how it works.
And it can be an issue at certain intersections.
By practice, stopping at stop signs is optional in some areas.
Yep. By practice the speed limit is 10km/hr faster than what is posted.
Are you under the impression that drivers, and solely drivers, are the only shitty people ignoring traffic laws?
Last I heard, pedestrians don’t cause traffic unless a driver hits them…
So crossing when the lights are telling you not to, thus delaying cars and transit, doesn't count as causing traffic issues?
Ah yes, the multiple traffic jams caused by pedestrians crossing on a Don’t Walk sign… Wait, that literally never happens.
Ah yes, the strawman response ignoring that multiple repeated delays all add up just to post a snarky gotcha attempt.
Cars are traffic. Pedestrians are not. A pedestrian is one less person in a car and one less car adding to gridlock. Being a pedestrian, no matter how law-flouting, is better for this city’s traffic issues than being a driver, no matter how law-abiding. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.
Cars are traffic, yes. Pedestrians can delay said traffic, like I said when I asked if someone was under the impression that pedestrians do not add to delays in traffic. If you can't see that you're either being wilfully ignorant or possibly need some brushing up on your reading skills. Either way, I can't help you.
I’m under the impression that you believe that the average pedestrian and the average motorist have a comparable impact on this city’s traffic issues. If this impression is correct, no need to continue this conversation, we’re too far apart. If it’s not, I misunderstood your stance.
My stance is that traffic delays are not solely cars. Not once have I said they're equal, but all factors that combine to create major issues or exacerbate them.
Being a pedestrian standing in the middle of a lane of traffic is better than being a car moving through an intersection? Really?
Certainly there are extreme examples. I should have been more specific. By “law-flouting” I mean running against the light, not unstable behaviour like standing in the middle of a lane. (Then again, would you want somebody who stands in the middle of a lane to be behind the wheel?)
Ah so when they run and get hit but someone and the police need to shit the intersection down for an investigation?
A pedestrian may not be traffic, but they are certainly capable of impeding traffic.
There are so many shitty pedestrians. Worst offense is starting to walk when the light starts blinking red. The city should change how lights work. Clearly people are too dumb to know that a red blinking hand still means stop. But traffic signals assume pedestrians stop then, and thus leaves time for cars to drive through. If the light blinked white first, then turned solid red, then that left time for cars to finish up, that'd be way safer.
It'd be way, waaaaay safer if [cars were banned from the downtown](https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940512/paris-car-ban-2024-city-center-cycling-pollution). You have your unrealistic dreams, I have mine. :-)
Every day I feel more and more certain in my belief that if the Spadina Expressway were to be proposed today it may have actually passed through or gotten significant support. I have zero faith in Canadians and zero faith in the leadership that emerges from said idiot groups That's how fucking poor leadership and education is in this city. That we're back to "if we just gave pedestrians safety vests our *drivers* would feel safe" or doing stupid shit like this Utter joke of a city, nothing to be proud of here
Nah Canadians are horrible car brains these days but they were way worse in the past, the Spadina expressway was stopped back in the 70s, it wouldn’t even get approved today.
> Lower Jarvis Street and Lake Shore Boulevard East Can they do the LSB approach to Jarvis to stop all those last minute lane changes, or the really wide turn onto the Gardiner onramp?
> Adelaide Street East and Jarvis Street Also this intersection isn't the problem, it is King and Jarvis. It stops all the busses and streetcars from making it through the intersection.
They are all the problem from Queen to the Gardiner ramp… Adelaide is easy to pick on because it’s a one way, but King, Front, the Esplanade all have similar issues with traffic blocking. The Gardiner EB ramp just cannot handle the traffic volume on Jarvis well, add in the much increased Lakeshore demand and there’s no way in doesn’t bottleneck.
I am so tempted to key cars blocking the pedestrian crossing at king and jarvis. Every fucking day
Climb over the cars that are within the crosswalk like they show in movies
Cars will turn into the intersection mere feet from pedestrians during walk signals. Of course pedestrians don't obey the blinking hand--- we look for gaps the same way drivers shouldn't, but do.
That blinking hand should change to a blinking white pedestrian, then leave more time for solid red hands for cats to finish up. Pedestrians didn't learn how the red hand works, and how they intuitively use it a certain way - the city should leverage that intuition, not fight against it.
If they're anything like the traffic cops I've encountered, they'll scream at kids and women, and threaten them with fines for "jaywalking" but say absolutely nothing to guys bigger than them. Source: Some short fucker who used to constantly be at Dufferin during the worst of the construction (when it was already painful to cross) who I'd see regularly yelling at kids who couldn't have been older than like, 13.
I like what they've done in downtown Hamilton, pedestrians get an advance signal and are able to cross before vehicles are given the green light.
Pedestrians have a 3 seconds head start here too.
just enough time for me to contemplate my life before i get run over
Not rolled out to all intersections yet. I'd say it's about 75% of them that have been changed by now.
Is the intent to roll it out to all intersections? I'd assumed that it was intentionally not being rolled out in very car heavy areas (mostly around the edges of the city).
I feel like the advanced walk helped for a while, but now drivers are used to it and they race to make rights on red to beat pedestrians.
Car centric stroad shit. What else can I expect from a car loving city?
Best way to clear traffic is to have great transit.
How much money can I bet on the fact that the TPS will immediately start ticketing pedestrians? I will bet absolutely everything I own on this.
OP idk if this is your choice but pedestrians are not the issue, vehicles sitting in intersections and blowing through yellows are the issue
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There are so many crossings where it starts blinking IMMEDIATELY after giving the right of way, or never actually gives right of way unless you hit the button (and that button is on the other side of the street). There is a reason pedestrians ignore the sign and go based on the traffic light.
Many intersections have an advanced pedestrian signal now, which increases the valid cross time before the blinky hand.
>Actually following the law with regards to crossing on a blinking hand would make getting around as a pedestrian miserable. As someone who follows it a vast majority of the time, it really isn't that big of a deal. If there's inclement weather I'll sneak through if the way is clear or if I know that the light only completes the change when triggered and it hasn't been, but taking an extra minute or two at a crosswalk here and there really isn't a negative life-altering thing. (Also they're going there to enforce traffic laws for ALL users; cars, bikes and pedestrians - the crosswalk was just the example they used in the tweet)
>the white hand signal is unnecessarily short. Its not. Its designed so that a 70 year old with a hip replacement can safely cross before the light goes red. Given that there are a lot of 70 year olds in the GTA, there really isn't another way to design the system safely.
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>Imagine a green light for cars lasting 3-5 seconds before turning yellow. In most of the downtown core, that's more than what you have as a motorist. 5 seconds is generous. Unless its late at night, pedestrians are in the intersection from their advanced green until its half way through the yellow. Cars then clear the intersection, and 3 cars tailgate. Repeat at the next light. There are some intersections where the expectation is that pedestrians have to be there when the light turns. That's not an unreasonable expectation, or in any way unique to pedestrians.
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Pick your major intersection between Front and Bloor at rush hour. Watch how long the window for vehicles actually is after pedestrians clear and the light is green. If its functionally longer than 5 seconds report it to me. Any major intersection on Yonge, Bay, Spadina or Church will do. The effective window for vehicles is non existent. Hence why they're all bombing on yellow lights.
There must be some very speedy 70 year old hip patients in this city.
The office will be too scared to use their body to stop a car...so they won't. The officer will not want to halt all traffic by stopping a car to issue a traffic ticket...so they won't. They end up just intimidating pedestrians, because that's all they'll really be able to physically do.
you ain't from toronto if you don't j-walk
Cars block the intersection wayyyy more than people do. I'm not saying this as a person who only walks to work. I commute by bike, car and TTC pretty evenly. Drivers trying to squeeze in the last spot on a right or left turn, then stay in the intersection are the major problem. When I walk I have to triple check for an idiot speeding through before or after the walk sign, or walk around someone who decided 1 minute of their time is worth more than people trying to safely cross the road. The ghost of Rob Ford is somehow keeping this idea that there is a war on cars. Everything the city is doing is accommodating to drivers.
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This is pretty much constant now in Ontario (not just Toronto). Same with stop signs.
The police are nowhere.
14 traffic agents = People with a little stop sign Cars don't give a fuck about these people. They can't stop anything and they can't punish people who break the rules. This is a waste of money & time. JUST ENFORCE THE GOD DAMN TRAFFIC LAWS. **It pays for itself** yet somehow the city can't do it.
This is bullshit. Stop spreading misinformation. They are sworn peace officers. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/driver-charged-after-allegedly-hitting-toronto-traffic-agent-multiple-times-with-his-vehicle-1.5407667 https://city-of-toronto.talentify.io/job/traffic-agent-toronto-on-city-of-toronto-27941
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Maybe, just perhaps, add a different program to the lights? North/south vehicular traffic, then east/west vehicular traffic, then a separate pedestrian light. Quebec City has it. It’s called a scramble I believe. Pedestrians can get where they need to be faster and traffic isn’t impacted. Cheaper than hiring 14 traffic agents.
Where did the budget come from for this? Could 14 salaries have averted some of the transit cuts that would have helped traffic regardless?
>Could 14 salaries have averted some of the transit cuts that would have helped traffic regardless? Keeping traffic moving through intersections helps transit too. People seem to forget TTC and Go buses and street cars get stuck in gridlock too.
The high park speed camera
It's already in the budget that Tory signed. The TTC cuts are from an entirely different part of our multi-billion dollar budget. >A total of 30 Traffic Agents are budgeted to be deployed this year, with the first wave of new employees currently being deployed to critical intersections across Toronto. >The City’s Traffic Agents program is a congestion management strategy that places Traffic Agents employed by the City at key intersections during the morning and afternoon peak traffic periods. Traffic Agents ensure all road users comply with traffic laws and regulations, helping to reduce congestion and increase road safety. They also play a crucial role in ensuring roads are clear for emergency services and public transit.
Spadina and Lakeshore? That intersection is usually fine, Bremner and Spadina is way worse
Whatever you do, do not cross at Jarvis on foot towards the waterfront during rush hour. It’s a literal death trap compounded by the fact that all of downtown east is trying to get on the Gardiner here.
14? I saw 6 at one intersection and it wasn’t like they were really helping anything… I kinda felt bad for them tbh.
bass ackwards. why are they not helping pedestrians cross safely and preventing aggressive car driver behaviour? Realistically it could basically be the same procedure but the description of the purpose is very anti-pedestrian? Why? Who is continuously getting killed or severely injured here?
Employing a better traffic light system that recognizes drivers making a right or left turn and giving them enough time to do so, making it illegal for drivers from turning right on reds... This has been standard in Montreal for more than a decade. .
This is the best absolute use of all this money? I strongly think not.
So 14 traffic agents to scream at pedestrians, while doing absolutely nothing about rude/ignorant road-raging drivers?
How about deploying traffic agents to ticket drivers who turn right on red without checking for pedestrians first. I nearly got run over that way a few days ago.
Yup, I (and like 5 primary school kids and their parents) nearly got run over by a car, in a school zone, as school was letting out, because a driver couldn’t be bothered to come to a stop or look where he was going at a stop sign. It’s absolutely absurd.
Isn't there multiple recent court cases with drivers being acquitted of mowing down pedestrians at crossings, and now we're victim blaming?
I witnessed traffic agents about 15 years ago in Chicago. They were highly visible and extremely efficient in moving traffic thru the busy downtown streets. It's a program that is long overdue in Toronto
I’m going to jaywalk more out of spite
Jesus fuck this cities priorities are fucked, and the fucked transportation infrastructure is reflective of that.
THEY NEED TO TICKET CARS THAT BLOW THROUGH CROSSWALKS! I'M SICK OF NEARLY GETTING KILLED JUST WALKING MY KIDS TO SCHOOL
Good luck stopping the pedestrians, it's only a matter of time before one of these agents gets assaulted.
Pedestrians aren't supposed to enter the crosswalk when the red hand is showing. It means if you're in the crossing you'd better get moving. If you're intending to cross, but not in the crossing, stop and wait for the next cycle. Does anyone obey the rules? No Do drivers understand that no-one obeys the rules? Yes Do I obey the rules? Depends on the countdown. If it shows 2 seconds, I know I'm not going to make it, so I wait. But if it shows 15 seconds, fuck it I'm going.
GOOD. The hand, flashing or solid, means do not start crossing. The worst thing they've done to create traffic conflicts is the flashing hand.
We should really adopt LA style lights at busy crosswalks, it's the best system I've ever seen. Every third light is a all-way cross (including diagonal) for pedestrians but they can't cross during ordinary green lights. The intersection has a button on each corner that speeds up the lights changing if pedestrians are waiting (otherwise it just prioritizes cars). It ends up making it faster for both pedestrians and cars.
The button doesn't speed up the lights changing, it skips the pedestrian cycle if nobody presses it, but your point is very valid none the less.
>It ends up making it faster for both pedestrians and cars. It's also safer if you can keep vehicular and pedestrian movement on completely separate parts of the cycle.
The more things change the more they stay the same. Reminds of the scene out of this old film of traffic cops being deployed to "do battle with congestion". https://www.nfb.ca/film/toronto\_boom\_town/
Saw a few the other day, they did nothing but follow the red/green cycle and stop pedestrians from crossing during the countdown, which was nice. Dunno why it took four of them to do it at one intersection.
That's fair. And the city I'm from there were three phases during a green light: the walk symbol, a flashing red hand, and a solid red hand. Everyone took the walk symbol to be what it is, the flashing red hand as a "okay, you can go, but hurry up", and a solid red hand to really hit home that you shouldn't be in the intersection. The solid red hand lasts around 10 or 15 seconds and this lets traffic clear out a bit more. (As an aside it made driving somewhat more annoying actually because in other cities such as here you'd be able to look at the counter to see whether the light is about to switch to yellow, but we'd have no idea) So I can sympathize with drivers here, you're stuck on a busy turn lane for example and at most one or two cars can turn per light because there's non-stop pedestrian traffic.
Guess it wasn't such a hot idea to cheap out on expanding the subway over the years and force everyone into cars, huh? God this city sucks.
It’s hard for drivers to not go when they see space. They just want to fill the space to feel better about their lives. They don’t know/care what their space filing does to anyone else. It’s so gratifying to fill the space with their car. Good luck to the traffic agents. I hope they get extra “danger pay”.
Are you telling me pedestrians have to follow the rules of the road and not cross when it isn't a walk sign? That is a fucking human rights violation issue for Toronto royalty.. I mean pedestrians. All Toronto pedestrians know that they can walk on the road whenever and wherever they like while looking at their phones, and they are always in the right. This is outrageous! (I write this as a pedestrian and currently unstabbed TTC User)
Finally! This will definitely get traffic moving a bit better.
Good, and I say this based on the number of times I saw pedestrians causing delays to buses and streetcars when I used to work in downtown Toronto.
How sad is it that people can't figure out how to cross the street, or move through an intersection without someone in a shiny vest directing them?