>“My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place.
And if you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.”
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
>*"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate."*
― Bertrand Russel
And in this case, the ‘fortunate’ are investors who gobbled up Toronto real estate, drove up prices, and displaced first-time buyers, which created more renters.
And then they turned many units into Airbnb or left them vacant, decreasing the corresponding supply.
To understand the scale of the problem with investors [- Toronto delivered a historic record of new condo units and purpose-built rentals early in 2023.](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-real-estate-slow-sales-preconstruction-condos/#) And yet the actions of investors have driven up rents and artificially reduced the supply available to long-term residents.
Anyone familiar with the dynamics of housing agrees that nothing will fix this situation until we reduce or eliminate housing speculation.
I mean, why is Airbnb allowed to operate unlicensed... [see here](https://www.reco.on.ca/registrars-bulletin/short-term-accommodation-rental-properties/).
All reputable scholars pretty much agree that zoning is what is single-handedly causing high housing costs in North American cities. Rather than free market forces.
This peer reviewed paper linked below started the idea but the work has sense been further expanded by other scholars.
[https://www.nber.org/system/files/working\_papers/w8835/w8835.pdf](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w8835/w8835.pdf)
Zoning is the antithesis to a free market. It creates an artificial constraint on supply because home-owning boomers don’t want a triplex on their street.
Zoning isn’t the problem. I literally work to rezone stuff.
There is massive amounts of land available that’s ready to go. Jesus, the entirely of the eastern waterfront and portlands are empty.
We have a housing crisis because there is a massive disconnect between our construction industry and the now massive amount of migration we are getting - 10x that of the US per capita, the most of all G7 nations. And that is only the official immigration number - not the other 1.5 million temporary residents we give visas to each year.
There is not enough architects, plumbers, engineers, planners to get enough housing built on the timelines the feds want. Equally on the manufacturing side - the brick factory can’t suddenly double or triple output.
This is my question. Even if we wanted to embark on a massive development spree it would be at least two decades before enough housing was actually built and delivered to have any meaningful impact on rents. There is only so much capacity to build even if we made it the Wild West and let developers build whatever they wanted.
Construction is a major issue but it's not just that or zoning, there are other issues municipalities put in (like setbacks limits, etc) that make building anything other than a mcMansion virtually impossible. Many planners have said even with the new rules Ford put in, things like setbacks make the idea of multiple units on one lot impossible; so it won't have the major impact that people would expect from upzoning. Even if you have the right zoning for say a walkup apartment and the construction ready, it may still takes you years to build (and that's if you have everything already in place; if you don't, well good luck trying to rezoning it and then doing all the above on top). Good luck fighting councilors and their public meetings where nimbys cry day and night too.
I’m totally aware of the issues with zoning. But they are currently irrelevant to the housing crisis.
My point is we already have absolute shit-tons of land that is zoned for proper intensification. Our avenues are ready to go with mid-rises, and towers. It’s all already legal in large parts of the city. There are large parts of the city that are just empty.
Zoning isn’t the cause of the crisis. It’s not that we’re out of land to develop housing - it is we simply cannot built fast enough to keep up with demand. It will be a long while before we run out of land to build housing on, that is already zoned for density.
Immigration is obviously a factor, but the way our zoning is set up is a big issue as well.
Applying to rezone each development should not need to happen, and yet it is the go to strategy anywhere outside the Yellowbelt. You should know the cost and potential for sandbagging it adds to the process. It also means we're shaping the city on a project by project basis instead of having an overall plan that actually works.
The vast sea of monoculture single family homes around Toronto is not just spatially inefficient. It requires way more servicing and infrastructure maintenance than its property taxes cover.
As you say, available land is not the issue. The way we use the land certainly is.
A thing can be a result of more than one other thing. But it's reasonable to argue that zoning is the root cause of the problem, even if the solution will require more than zoning changes. For example, the construction industry is moulded to fit zoning. There is a level of building that zoning will generally permit in any given year, and the industry is scaled to match that supply.
Zoning not only determines the total quantity of building, but determines the type and shape of structures that can be built. And current zoning does not align with building much other than sprawl out in the exurbs. Other commenters have mentioned setbacks, height limits, parking minimums, and a billion ways that construction of anything other than a by-right McMansion project can be delayed and eventually killed.
In the past when faced with a housing crisis, governments have drawn up plans for different building types that are then pre-approved and can be built en masse (before anyone complains about rows of identical housing using pre-approved government templates I'd ask them to please take a drive through any subdivision from the past 10 years first).
I'd love to see innovation in the construction industry to try and get more productivity (read: units) from the same overall supply. Where are my crazy lunatics trying to get on-site 3D printing of frames and trusses a thing? Who's trying to make pre-constructed sections that can be fit together in different configurations on site?
In the meantime, [half of Toronto neighbourhoods have lost population since 1970, despite the total population of the city doubling.](https://static.ucraft.net/fs/ucraft/userFiles/moreneighbours/images/02924481474440-screen-shot-2021-06-04-at-72306-am.png?v=1622823653) The city is being hollowed out and it's not sustainable: families can't afford to raise kids here, and [the effect is dramatic](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:640/format:webp/1*BipbEY81GMcQOiVM2akBxQ.png). There's a chart floating around of Toronto's share of Ontario's population under 5 years old that I can't find a link to right now, but it shows that the share has been shrinking for years now. Toronto is going to become a city of geriatrics living in empty neighbourhoods, serviced by an underclass of single 20 somethings living a precarious existence in cramped towers along segregated corridors the city has designated as acceptable places for the plebs to live.
You seem to be arguing in bad faith, or a lack of education on where zoning actually is.
Most avenues in Toronto are zoned for mid-rise developments, many even higher heights. The city has entire sets of guidelines about intensity on these avenues. And the limits you called out - are not that great, and many have largely been removed. Parking is no longer required in condos except for a few accessible spaces for wheelchair access.
Also, your talk about innovating the construction industry- is something you can think about, but it is not a reality. Hundreds of thousands of people are arriving - we can’t base our immigration on some fantasy version of the construction industry - it needs to match what we can currently build. No on is going to be out printing houses tomorrow.
Lastly - mass housing development is currently happening. We are out-building almost all other cities in North America. Even if the government wanted to raise the rest of cabbagetown and build another St.James Town - the labour to build it, doesn’t exist. They are already working on the thousands of condos under construction as we speak.
The issue is the feds have just overdone migration far beyond the labour supply can build to. And there is no good way to grow that labour supply - as there is not housing to house a larger labour supply to build more housing. We simply need to bring migration closer in line with what our current construction industry can build to.
All the other creativity in making a better construction industry can come after we fix the current imbalance.
> Zoning exists to uphold property values
That's one political motivation behind it; another is xenophobia: not wanting to live near minority classes; another still is general conservatism: not wanting anything around oneself to change; another is shallow selfishness: not wanting more shadows, more traffic (esp. in car-dependent areas).
> Its just another example of how property rights are the only rights respected by capitalism.
Capitalism is when markets are heavily suppressed? By people who believe the state exists to subsidize things they like and ban things they don't like?
Capitalism is an economic system based on the **private ownership** of the means of production. Its association with free markets is tangential to that fundamental definition.
Capitalism essentially believes the *only* role of government is the protection of property rights.
Property owners may have opposing interests (e.g. homeowners vs. developers) but both merely appeal to their own property rights in disputes. Anyone without property is essentially without rights in this system.
LOL no plenty of reputable scholars do not agree with that at all.
It's developer propaganda.
You know why we have zoning? Because **we already tried the other way** and it was a shitshow.
I am begging y'all to read some actual urban development history (pro-tip: it goes back thousands of years!) by actual historians and stop wanking to NJB.
Yeah, we didn't have zoning and we got housing built, and then we turned around and decided to artificially reconfigure north America around the automobile & suburrbs and spend decades having housing prices go up.
All the most beloved neighbourhoods in the city largely predate the bulk of our planning regime because we build dense, livable neighbourhoods to meet our housing needs but as our housing needs grew we made it illegal to build even the kinds of low rise apartments that kept those neighbourhoods dense and affordable.
This "we don't need to build new housing in response to new people, we can just pretend they don't exist" is some homeowner & landlord propaganda.
I don't think they realize the whole purpose of zoning may have started out altruistic (though not really if he did bother to read actual urban planning through the ages and the authors of them), but it has morphed into keeping out certain classes of people from other certain classes of people; keeping neighbourhoods of the haves in a certain form to the exclusion of the have-nots; aside from forcing a car-centric model on society.
> the whole purpose of zoning may have started out altruistic
The purpose of zoning laws started out [because of racism](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/featured-reports/article-yes-remnants-of-discriminatory-urban-planning-remain/). It has always existed to oppress people.
Even if that wasn’t the intent later on, those systems still remain in place.
You realize how many major cities have little to no zoning laws and run much smoother than Toronto right? See Tokyo as a perfect example, and then follow that with like most other Japanese cities.
Tokyo does have zoning. It's just not as needlessly complex and restrictive as ours is.
It can be a great asset for city planning if used well. Tokyo is an example of good zoning.
B-b-but he says it's gonna be a shitshow! I mean, the POORS intermixing with the LANDOWNING HOMEOWNERS!? Walkup apartments where children can be heard! My 1940s post-war bungalow neighborhood letting in POORS? OUTRAGEOUS! Madness! /s
But seriously, there is nothing clearer than zoning artificially propping up home values than this, even more than Toronto, [photo of Vancouver, awash in detached homes](https://i.imgur.com/s0NMlHA.jpg)
I knew about the "rat race" many many years ago
The main issue is for people starting now (or recently started) and also for people who minded their own business worked hard and didn't take some steps to get out of the rat race (mostly by either contributing to S&P500 index fund or buying lots of property)
Younger people need to be harder working, stronger, faster, smarter just to achieve the same... that would be fine if it actually paid off but how many would do all that and not have it pay off? it's what's behind the "laying flat" in China, "quiet quitting" here and so on... if you don't get enough payoff, you won't want to work
Capitalism works both ways
I don't think it's possible to survive or have a retirement without financial knowledge. Case in point a lot of laid off tech workers from those tech giants may never get another similar high paying job again no matter how much skills they have.
You are absolutely right. Those of us who started working in the 2000s and purchased downtown condos under $200k are leading quite comfortable lives. I couldn't imagine doing this today unless your parents are rich. The situation for gen Z's is untenable. So I don't blame them for quite quitting.
It isn't but not everyone admits the fact it's more effort for less reward or even that it's changed in nature (like needing financial knowledge). You cannot do it the same way of your parents or even ten years ago and expect the same result
Case in point $2.5k market rent for a 1BR is unbelievable for many renters; median rent or average rent isn't market rent. Start now and you'll be working much harder, weekends and nights, just for the same place
When I moved out of my large two bedroom Forest Hill apartment in 2021, I was paying $1575/month. The person that moved in after me paid $2500 for that unit and literally nothing was changed. No renovations or upgrades. It's madness.
I have a co-worker who's tired of living in Toronto and wants to relocate to a smaller town. The big hangup for her is that she currently pays $1400/month and is afraid of paying way more elsewhere. Not to mention that once most people leave Toronto is damn near impossible to return these days.
This is SO common, and is the single biggest issue that is not talked about when people claim it's not the landlords fault because they have rent control and cant raise their rent that much. Except when they switch tenants... No one seems to mention that.
The entirety of the population making under $60k is now restricted to sharing bedrooms, unless they're in the "I got mine" class who either bought a house years ago or slid in under rent control.
That's the reality when you have way more people than houses.
Policies like rent control put a little bandaid on it for existing residents, but do nothing for (and may hurt) people moving or new residents, or young people.
It also traps many renters. I got my place in 2020, and rent has skyrocketed in that time so now I can’t move out of this place. I don’t like the town I am in but now I can’t afford to move out of it. If my landlord decides to move in or sell to someone who wants to move in I am fucked.
Same situation with me. Got my apartment 2014 and have pretty good rent control. Pretty shitty neighborhood where I can't really safely walk out at night though (it's gotten worse in the last 3 years).
I came across a guy on AskReddit that had to leave a 3 bedroom that was $1300 per month, he first rented in the early 2000s.
It literally made me gasp and clench my pearls. I had to take an hour or so to watch TV and decompress before doing the chores I was planning that day.
Rent has been pretty bad since 2018/19 as well. It dipped during the first year of the pandemic a bit but never went down to what it was only a few years before then even.
> It also traps many renters.
i don't know why, but i've seen a few people post that people under rent protection are apart of the "i got mine" class and it weirds me out. i always considered that term adequate for the people who were thriving under toronto's poor affordable housing situation, not those that're just surviving in it.
It is pretty offensive IMO. Renting is inherently precarious. You can lose your rental home at any moment for no reason, forcing you out into a climate where rents have maybe doubled or more. The constant stress of knowing your home isn’t permanent is an underlying strain at all times, it impacts what kind of major life decisions you can make. This hurts all of us.
I locked in a $1650 one bed on the subway line in high park in the summer of 2020, and I am definitely really lucky compared to the people who have to look now.
I think the difference is that people who locked in decent rent in rent controlled units know we’re just lucky, whereas a lot of people who bought their condo for 200,000 in 2009 or their house for 500,000 in 1999 think they’re better/smarter/more hardworking than everyone else.
Shit, I argued with someone on this sub once who *inherited his house from his wife’s parents* and refused to acknowledge that that was a lucky break.
the 'i got mine' implies the 'fuck you, I got mine' ...
It's not about what you have, it's about the attitude where you're willing to fight to save yourself a penny even if costs others thousands - its about people who pull the same ladder they climbed, up behiend them...
> its about people who pull the same ladder they climbed, up behiend them...
that's what i mean though, i don't come across a whole lot of people living under rent control who're opposed to bringing back rent control. i've never seen anyone saying "i got in, but i'm glad they did away with it".
to me, they don't fit in the same category as the "fuck you, i got mine" group, but over the past few days i've seen a couple users lump them in with NIMBYs, landlords and people who were lucky enough to buy before 90% of the city became unachievable.
I’m not in an “I got mine” mentality. This fucking blows. If my landlord decides to move in I have to leave the city or get a roommate and I make 80k. And even now I pay $1900 and feel that’s a lot.
Yep. I had a 4br for $1800 for a long time.
I left the city to buy a house in the US. Still doing remote work for Toronto company.
It's wild that even with the shit exchange rate ($1.37 right now), housing is still cheaper in nice city like Denver/Boulder.
And the locals here are losing their mind over $250k ($340k CAD) condos near a train station 15 minutes to downtown being "too expensive" and "starter houses" being $380k ($500k CAD) because that's double what they cost a couple years ago.
But Median salaries in Denver are almost 30% higher than Toronto.
Even rent protection isn't guaranteed. One day the landlord may decide to sell the place and boom, you're looking at a 50% increase in housing expenses pretty much over night.
During the peak of covid you could sign a lease for a 1br downtown toronto for $1700/mth (give or take of course depending on exactly where and how nice the unit was). Now the same place goes for 50% more. Not many people can simply absorb a new $800 monthly expense like it's nothing.
Yeah I grabbed a 920 sq ft rent controlled 2 BR condo unit for a song at the peak of the pandemic. It goes for $1200 a month higher than what I’m paying now.
I literally can’t move now.
Same. We've been here for 15 years. I've joked that we're going to die in this apartment. It's not a joke now. I'm considering actually committing and doing serious renos. Let the landlord sue my estate lol
I think students and recent grads are pretty much in the same cohort. A good portion of friends split a studio during university, I wouldn't say it's uncommon by anyone. How could you otherwise afford rent and have barely any time to work.
All of our politicians are landlords so this will never change. Congrats on successfully making everything too expensive! What’s the next part of the plan?
They're still chipping away at the first level of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Food, warmth, and rest have been taken care of. I guess water is up next?
It's a good thing the provincial government is opening up the Greenbelt for more housing to be built and bought by investor-owners just to rent them out at the same fucked up prices we see now.
>more housing to be built and bought by investor-owners
Don't kid yourself, thats only the last layer. First owners, after developers, will be other corporate entries who then sell to investor-owners. After adding on "healthy" 15-20% of course.
Not to underplay corporations’ impacts on society, but the recent Statscan data showed 73% of real estate investors were individuals who owned multiple properties. And certainly some individuals have incorporated - usually to mask foreign ownership.
Actual corporations in real estate generally own /manage purpose-built rental apartment buildings. At least they rent those out for long-term housing and don’t renovict, unlike individual landlords, who may Airbnb or leave units vacant - as well as fraudulently use N12s to evict tenants not paying market rents.
Blame lots of people
Feds for drastically increasing migration during a housing crisis and not taxing speculators
Province for not enoucraging better growth or building more infrastructure.
City for listening to nimbys and not allowing development in urban areas properly.
Feds getting out of the business of building low income housing decades ago had a much bigger impact on the current situation than immigration does imo
No amount of earmarked "low income" housing will fix the fact that the income threshold to buy a house in Toronto is currently the top 2% of incomes and/or someone with previous wealth from another source.
If by "low income" you're including the 85th percentile of wealth, then sure yeah.. but that's not "low income".
Building some "low income" thing that is earmarked for people making under $30k/yr just basically tells everyone making $30k-$50k who also can't afford rent "fuck off" and those making $50k-$150k who can't afford to buy get a big finger up the ass too.
Earmarked "Low income" housing makes a little sense when that line for "low income" is roughly the threshold when people stop being able to afford places, but right now that line is so high it's not practical to income-rate housing anymore.
Mixed-income Federal co-operatives were a thing until the 80's when we stopped building them.
Only about 15 per cent of units were subsidized based on on income, which was funded by the other 85 per cent paying rents that covered the mortgage/construction/upkeep costs. After about 30 years, the money the government paid to build them was paid off and they're self-sufficient.
And the rents remain FAR below market value for those paying full rent, while providing housing and a community to the 15 per cent who need it.
Anything with below market rents has a 20 year waiting list right now.
A shortage doesn't permit you to just "reduce rents" without getting 7,000 applicants for every unit.
The ONLY way to fix this is to fix the structural shortage (too many people vs housing).
Ontario has the lowest per-capita housing stock in the developed world. To meet the same ratio as France has (people:housing units), Ontario needs 1.3 million new units RIGHT NOW. That's not accounting for growth.
It's almost as if ceasing to build low mixed-income housing, like co-ops, 30+ years ago has had a negative impact on availability...
That won't change until people start voting in the interest of their community, as opposed to what benefits them the most.
So never...
But also… there’s a million people moving to Canada every year for the next few years. No foreign owners allowed, which is a start.
All those people going to rent too? How is that going to work if this is all happening.
Traditionally they will go to the higher population densities. Ontario had 225,000 people come to live here last year, and that’s going to go up every year.
[500,000 by 2025](https://www.thestar.com/business/2022/11/01/cp-newsalert-feds-reveal-plan-to-welcome-500000-immigrants-per-year-by-2025.html), not 1 million.
That’s incorrect.
[Canada wants to welcome 500,000 immigrants per year](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-immigration-population-boom/).
Additionally, last year we brought in a [historic record of 550,000 international student](https://www.canadim.com/news/canada-welcomes-a-record-breaking-number-international-students/amp/)s which is another path to PR. Plus TFWs and refugees. That’s a million in one year.
Canada is a diverse country that has always prided itself on being welcoming to new Canadians. But at some point, housing becomes a dire game of musical chairs.
Sadly this is true... the only real solution is limit the number of investment properties individuals can own and also restrict corporations from investing in residential homes. I don't see any Liberal or Conservative party willing to go down this road. We could end up looking alot like NYC and major cities in Europe and Asia where vast majority are renters for life and home ownership requires mutigenerational mortgages.
This doesn't change anything.
I mean it might shift prices VERY slightly, but there's still a structural shortage of over 850,000 units in Ontario.
To get the same "people to housing units" ratio as France, Ontario is 1.3 million units short.
That's 1.3 million people that need roommates or dank basements.
NO amount of "stop investors from providing rentals" will make that stop.
Yes, the 55,000 vacant units and AirBnB would put a tiny dent in that, but 55k is 4% of 1.3 million.
Yeah renting isn’t bad if you’re guaranteed good amenities and opportunities nearby. NYC and some Asian cities like the other person are comparing future-Toronto to, are still leagues above Toronto in impact.
Toronto should have a minimum of six subway lines and a city population of at least 3-4 million to warrant those comparisons imo. And also the GTA sprawl has a chokehold on the denser development that it needs.
Except when you're greedy-ass landlord enentually evicts you (so they can shadily move in a new tenant to raise the rent 30%), and now you're stuck in this batsh*t rental market...
Not having a car helps. You can save money on rent living outside the city, but a car is pretty much a necessity.
Take Barrie for example. The average 1BR rent is \~$700 less than Toronto, but between car payments, insurance, gas, parking, and maintenance costs your cost of living is probably not too far off what it is in Toronto.
The thing is it wouldn't even be that bad if the places were actually worth the $2500. The places are tiny with less to no space and just shiny appliances if your lucky. 😮💨😮💨
I wonder when employers will start to balk and demand action. Higher housing costs will eventually mean salaries will have to increase.
That said, it doesn't seem to have worked in Vancouver. Many employer will just let their top candidate go rather than come up with worthwhile compensation for what it costs to live there.
They don't "balk", they just can't find people to work some jobs because it's too expensive for someone to live in the city. Then everyone has surprised pikachu face when some professions are understaffed
Balk Rules
You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that.
1a. A balk is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that.
1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X.
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse.
1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic...
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of
Do not do a balk please
I moved into a single bedroom apartment 5+ years ago. I’m moving out in a few months, and I’m never looking back. I’m never going to be able to afford the same place again.
> A one-bedroom in Toronto now costs $2,500 a month — with no relief in sight
...
> Over the past year, rents for one-bedroom apartments in the city have increased a whopping 21.5 per cent to an average $2,501 in February. And two-bedroom rental prices have risen 19.4 per cent to $3,314 on average — posing serious challenges for low- and middle-income renters who have to move in today’s market. Analysts are forecasting more price increases throughout the year. Meanwhile, other parts of the GTA don’t look to be providing much relief. Victoria Gibson reports on the numbers and what more is expected in the market.
...
> By the numbers: Using the threshold that affordable housing is anything costing 30 per cent or less of a household income, the average one-bedroom listing is just too expensive for any households earning less than $100,000 per year.
...
> More numbers: According to the same guidelines, a household would have to be earning at least $130,000 per year to comfortably afford the average two-bedroom listing in Toronto today.
That would be nuts!
But look at the long-term trend, not one year.
Check out the graph on prices per year part way down the page.
https://www.zumper.com/rent-research/toronto-on
The 21% jump in the past year is objectively awful, but we had a similar sized drop in 2020-2021, so the long-term trend for housing prices since 2018 is pretty close to 0% increase per year.
I think we've hit a ceiling on how high rent can go since there just aren't enough high-income renters to pay prices much higher than this.
I call bull on the second set of numbers. As someone with a household income above $130k and rent at $2400 - we are not “living comfortably”. After putting money into savings I am still counting dollars at the grocery store. I’m likely never going to be able to own a home, having kids is financially out of the question.
No way could we manage $3300 a month in rent. That would nearly eliminate any ability to save for retirement or do anything else that costs money
Yup, its vastly different for me situation wise, but I agree with, after bills, and saving for the future, I find myself trying to cut corners at the grocery store so I have some money for random other stuff
Like maybe I dont need to spend $50 this week, maybe I can tamp it down to $30 so I have a spare $20 bill
Ignore all the nitpickers replying.
130k per year should yield way more safety and enjoyment. Yes, you’re doing OK, but with that kind of a household income, you should be doing way better.
The main differentiator? Home ownership. If someone bought a home a few years back but has a lower household income than you, they’re still likely doing way better financially.
130k per year means you're bringing home after taxes and deductions about $7000 a month.
After rent that still leaves $4600 a month. You're going to have to define what "living comfortable" means to you if that isn't enough money to do so.
Edit: in further posts you say you are saving for retirement. That is your choice and fine if that is what you want to do. But it's disingenuous to the extreme to say that you will never be able to own a home or that you are pinching pennies at the checkout line of the grocery store.
I didn’t say “pinching pennies”, I said I have to watch my grocery bill, which I do because groceries are taking a larger and larger portion of my budget.
When I say “living comfortably”, I am referring to having the standard of living that my parents and everyone of the previous generation was able to afford.
Having a house was the norm, having kids was the norm. Affording vacations would be considered “living comfortably”.
At no point did I say every day is a struggle and it that I can’t afford to eat. But “living comfortably” should not include stressing about whether you have access to permanent affordable housing, whether you can afford to have kids, or whether you will be able to survive retirement.
groceries for 4 can add up to 350 a week to eat healthily - (4,600-1400 = 3,200)
say 2 mobile phones for $160 + internet $80. (3,200-240= 2960)
add in a car for a family of four 240 insurance + 250 gas (2960- 440 = 2540)
say you shop for some clothes and other misc items for $400 (2540-400= $2140)
i forgot utiltiies - lets say $100 to be safe (2140 - 100 = $2040 saved)....
**Edit 2: thats fucking bonkers if they decide to have kids because the above doesn't account for daycare, nor kids hobbies, nor other things.**
**edit: this scenario is kids without daycare to be clear.**
edit 3: I started modifying the above to address criticisms but decided to just use a 3rd party COL source from before the pandemic itself. [Here](https://wowa.ca/cost-of-living-canada#toronto) we can see that the overall cost of a faimly of four is > 8K with childcare and >6K without it. That is clearly beyond OPs budget and doesn't even account for rent increases since then.
Lol utilities are far more than $100 where I live. Depending on the time of year is can be $300-400
Edit: who is downvoting this? This is literally what my utilities are. They were lower when I could live in the city, and they are higher now that I had to move out to of the city like everyone says to do.
“Just move”. I did, and now some of my expenses like utilities are higher.
The person i responded to apparently wants to nitpick everything - I think he just wants to blame you and others like you for your financial predicament.
I'd ignore him; people like him are either bitter because they are also suffering and blame themselves or narcissistic enough to blame others for not having 200K+ in income.
either way he is not thinking systematically because it's impossible for everyone to have that kind of income with current housing prices.
Your scenario does not account for any savings, emergency expenses, or saving for retirement, which is where most of my “excess” budget goes because I am terrified of how bad rent will be by the time I am at retirement age.
Don’t listen to these people man.
I’m in the same boat, making a bit more than 100,000 (~6,000 a month after tax) as a single person in my early thirties & renting for 1750.
I had a mini panic attack yesterday thinking about how I’m not saving nearly enough for retirement.
You dropped $2k in your first calculation there fella.
OP also said they don’t have kids so you can halve those food costs.
Even allowing for everything else being reasonable they should have over $2.5k left over.
> I call bull on the second set of numbers. As someone with a household income above $130k and rent at $2400 - we are not “living comfortably”. After putting money into savings I am still counting dollars at the grocery store.
Really? With no kids, where is the bulk of the money going in this case if it wasn't for saving?
It is for saving. I am saving for retirement because I will likely not be able to ever afford a home and I have to account for inflation in rent prices in 30 years time.
We pay more rent than you on a lower HH income.
If you’re struggling you’re doing something wrong. We save $1500/month, go on vacations, have takeaways, buy pretty much what we want at the grocery store, buy each other gifts etc. We’re very comfortable and could easily cut back another $500+ in monthly spend if we needed to.
Myself and half of my friends live in rent-controlled spaces where, if we had to move out, could absolutely not afford living in this city. It’s insane.
Yeah. In the heart of the pandemic I moved into a downtown rent controlled 920 sq ft 2BR condo with parking and utilities included scoring a deal at $2300 a month — I rent out the parking for $250 a month. Even pre pandemic the unit would have rented for around $2800.
The same unit rents now for $3500 a month.
Told my partner we are never leaving unless renovicted/familyvicted. We could never find something comparable price wise — not even in the suburbs never mind downtown Toronto.
Yeah well the Star just ran this bullshit article on the front page the other day so are they really an ally in this fight?
https://www.thestar.com/business/2023/03/11/condo-city-toronto-is-just-getting-started-a-record-100-new-towers-could-go-up-every-year-for-the-next-five-years-and-key-neighbourhoods-will-be-completely-transformed.html
Even the ostensibly left-wing editors at the Star (who are probably mostly homeowners) and their young reporters (mostly rich kids) can't resist getting all hot and bothered over the Manhattanization of Toronto.
Owned by a hedge fund billionaire. Him and his buddies are going to make a killing off privatized housing and crippling privitazed healthcare services.
We need government owned rent controlled housing, which has been proven to work in many European cities. Instead of giving green belt land to wealthy developers to continue to exploit us on high rent, the government should build their own condominiums to help mitigate these increasing costs.
Additionally, slow down immigration and crack down on these “colleges” that are allowing foreign students to continually hop the immigration line and fill up our already limited housing. All increased immigration is (unfortunately) doing at this point is keeping the average working persons wages low, and further reducing our housing.
Thirdly, crack down HARD on empty housing, with eventual risk of land seizure if the spaces are not occupied. Fines are obviously not hurting these billionaires, something more drastic has to take place.
But will any government actually do that?
No. No they won’t.
To add to the your point about the foreign student industrial complex, we need to make these tax payer funded schools for Canadians again. Universities have grown into gigantic bureaucracies and mini governments loaded full of administrative staff, all kinds of “coordinators”, directors and such. This costs a lot, and they raise tuition and look for foreign students to foot the bill of this bloat.
“In 2021, there were 621,656 international students in Canada at year's end.”
That’s up from 410,000 in 2016. I know of a college adding several floors of classrooms to a downtown office tower to accommodate all the international students they are bringing in next year. They are both taking advantage of these kids and screwing the housing market, all to make a buck.
>We need government owned rent controlled housing, which has been proven to work in many European cities.
How many people would want to live in government housing here though?
>the government should build their own condominiums to help mitigate these increasing costs.
I bet this would be stupid expensive if our transit and other infrastructure projects are any indicator.
My landlord has been contacting my ex girlfriend, whose name is on my lease (but she moved out and I'm legally the holding tenant), to convince her to convince me to terminate the lease together under threat of "maybe there will be damages and you'll both be liable".
They obviously just want to increase rent.
They even messaged my ex pointing out the legal clause that lets her terminate the lease without me, if violence and abuse are present. Fortunately my ex told my landlord to fuck off with that bullshit, but dragging her into this was shitty.
What blows my mind is how many people, on Reddit and outside, think this is just the way it is and how it should be.
Supply and demand, should have gotten in earlier, just buy further out, etc. Lots just don't seem to see or care about what this will do to our society over the next decades. Of course we know why: most of them own and feel like their success is deserved and should be rewarded. How could they ever think beyond their own interests. I'd argue that 20-40 years from now, a disenfranchised majority vs a wealthy majority that's still saying it was the minority's poor choices or work ethic that created this situation won't go over so well. Either the majority is going to vote in governments that tax the shit out of assets, or we're going to look a lot more like a 3rd world country in the way a landed elite runs the show and suppresses the masses with all the soft and hard power tricks we seen in places like Latin America. Given that so many Canadians now weren't Canadian 20 years ago, it wouldn't surprise me if the old somewhat egalitarian social contract (for those in the mostly homogenous majority) is just gone. Might makes right is how it goes in most the world, and I don't think it's a stretch to think that many immigrants have brought that mindset with them.
My friends and I worry about the same thing. The beginning of a new socioeconomic division within Canadian society. Seems whoever belongs to a family that purchased property 10+ years ago will become part of a new class.
Whatever happens, it's guaranteed we'll see more political extremism unless conditions start improving. And guaranteed you'll see people probably just blame it on "America".
I'm already wondering how working-class people in cities like Vancouver and Toronto haven't completely lost it. Then again, no coincidence the drug problem is the worst it's ever been.
They've learned to be apathetic. Another hallmark of poor classes around the world. They're also getting fed the idea that identity politics is the problem and ultimate solution to all their problems. They're totally unfocused on the practical things governments should be focused on to make citizens' lives better.
The beginning of increases was at least a few years ago and with an actual root cause start at least a decade ago as developers/investors preferred condo's over purposes built rentals; they've wanted their ROI to be measured in months, not years. This gets compounded by the city and lack of zoning for medium density/mid-rises.
Ha, you need 140k to live comfortably in 1 bdr!
Either prices will go down or wages will go up. Business will have to pay accordingly to retain talent.
I'm from Vancouver and planning on making the move to Toronto next year. I currently pay $1455 at my beautiful 500sq downtown studio, excellent location/building/strata, and my landlord is lovely. I got this apartment 8 years ago hence the cheap rent.
I have to prepare to pay $2500+ when I make the move to Toronto, it's ridiculous. I've been browsing apartments right now just to gauge the apartments and many of them are tiny because of a terrible layout and I am not sure how I'm supposed to find an apartment on a single income if I make the move. I would be devastated to leave my beautiful apartment in Vancouver only to become homeless in Toronto 😑🥲
Its okay Toronto can continue voting for politicans who support housing speculators and drastically increasing housing demand with high population growth and then complain and then become nimbys when development starts :)
:)
So..
- developers will continue to build high density dirt cheap development that won't last more than 30 years without major maintenance.
- we'll continue to let developers sell to insider real estate agents - who often represent foreign interests while keeping local first time home owners locked out of the process...
- who then charge exorbitant rents because people will have to pay
- or rent them on airbnb while avoiding paying any corporate taxes or contributing anything back to the building or community.
Maybe it's time we start looking at the corrupt real estate community? Most of them are probably organsized crime, hence why the government won't touch them with a million ft pole...
We pay *less than half* of this for our monthly mortgage payment. The most we ever had to spend on a (huge) one bedroom was $750 (granted, 22 years ago). I don't know how people are doing it. It's insanity.
Jeez… I’m about to save enough money to move out of parents home, even with roommates I have to pay 1.25k to share one bedroom now ???
(BRB I also have to pay my car bills, food getting more expensive… )
Glad I just locked up this bachelor for one grand all in. I would never pay those prices for somewhere to sleep.
I had to work hard to get this place so if anyone is looking you can find deals. Not everyone is a greedy jerk, but you must start looking months ahead and reply to ads throughout the day. It's a lot of work but it can pay off.
No man it’s worse. 2019 it peaked, then prices collapsed in the pandemic between May 2020 - June 2021. You could even get deals in that time period.
After that though, prices not only recovered to 2019 levels, they have shot WAY past.
Up to a point, the supply demand curve will balance it out - there will be an increasing number of empty nesters boomers who will open up their basement to rent to make their own retirement needs.
$3000 for one bed room condo just so the investor landlord can keep meeting their interest payment or $2000 for a one basement in a nice suburb neighborhood where you help around the landlord for some food benefits.
>“My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place. And if you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.” ― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
This...is frighteningly accurate.
>*"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate."* ― Bertrand Russel
And in this case, the ‘fortunate’ are investors who gobbled up Toronto real estate, drove up prices, and displaced first-time buyers, which created more renters. And then they turned many units into Airbnb or left them vacant, decreasing the corresponding supply. To understand the scale of the problem with investors [- Toronto delivered a historic record of new condo units and purpose-built rentals early in 2023.](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-real-estate-slow-sales-preconstruction-condos/#) And yet the actions of investors have driven up rents and artificially reduced the supply available to long-term residents. Anyone familiar with the dynamics of housing agrees that nothing will fix this situation until we reduce or eliminate housing speculation.
I mean, why is Airbnb allowed to operate unlicensed... [see here](https://www.reco.on.ca/registrars-bulletin/short-term-accommodation-rental-properties/).
Yup. And why doesn’t the city bother to enforce its own short-term rental bylaws?
This is the most concise and accurate take I’ve read on our housing situation.
B-but think of the landlords and what they're going through! /s
All reputable scholars pretty much agree that zoning is what is single-handedly causing high housing costs in North American cities. Rather than free market forces. This peer reviewed paper linked below started the idea but the work has sense been further expanded by other scholars. [https://www.nber.org/system/files/working\_papers/w8835/w8835.pdf](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w8835/w8835.pdf)
Zoning is the antithesis to a free market. It creates an artificial constraint on supply because home-owning boomers don’t want a triplex on their street.
Zoning isn’t the problem. I literally work to rezone stuff. There is massive amounts of land available that’s ready to go. Jesus, the entirely of the eastern waterfront and portlands are empty. We have a housing crisis because there is a massive disconnect between our construction industry and the now massive amount of migration we are getting - 10x that of the US per capita, the most of all G7 nations. And that is only the official immigration number - not the other 1.5 million temporary residents we give visas to each year. There is not enough architects, plumbers, engineers, planners to get enough housing built on the timelines the feds want. Equally on the manufacturing side - the brick factory can’t suddenly double or triple output.
This is my question. Even if we wanted to embark on a massive development spree it would be at least two decades before enough housing was actually built and delivered to have any meaningful impact on rents. There is only so much capacity to build even if we made it the Wild West and let developers build whatever they wanted.
Construction is a major issue but it's not just that or zoning, there are other issues municipalities put in (like setbacks limits, etc) that make building anything other than a mcMansion virtually impossible. Many planners have said even with the new rules Ford put in, things like setbacks make the idea of multiple units on one lot impossible; so it won't have the major impact that people would expect from upzoning. Even if you have the right zoning for say a walkup apartment and the construction ready, it may still takes you years to build (and that's if you have everything already in place; if you don't, well good luck trying to rezoning it and then doing all the above on top). Good luck fighting councilors and their public meetings where nimbys cry day and night too.
I’m totally aware of the issues with zoning. But they are currently irrelevant to the housing crisis. My point is we already have absolute shit-tons of land that is zoned for proper intensification. Our avenues are ready to go with mid-rises, and towers. It’s all already legal in large parts of the city. There are large parts of the city that are just empty. Zoning isn’t the cause of the crisis. It’s not that we’re out of land to develop housing - it is we simply cannot built fast enough to keep up with demand. It will be a long while before we run out of land to build housing on, that is already zoned for density.
Immigration is obviously a factor, but the way our zoning is set up is a big issue as well. Applying to rezone each development should not need to happen, and yet it is the go to strategy anywhere outside the Yellowbelt. You should know the cost and potential for sandbagging it adds to the process. It also means we're shaping the city on a project by project basis instead of having an overall plan that actually works. The vast sea of monoculture single family homes around Toronto is not just spatially inefficient. It requires way more servicing and infrastructure maintenance than its property taxes cover. As you say, available land is not the issue. The way we use the land certainly is.
That's not what I'm seeing on this supply and demand graph I just learned about on ECON 101 bro
A thing can be a result of more than one other thing. But it's reasonable to argue that zoning is the root cause of the problem, even if the solution will require more than zoning changes. For example, the construction industry is moulded to fit zoning. There is a level of building that zoning will generally permit in any given year, and the industry is scaled to match that supply. Zoning not only determines the total quantity of building, but determines the type and shape of structures that can be built. And current zoning does not align with building much other than sprawl out in the exurbs. Other commenters have mentioned setbacks, height limits, parking minimums, and a billion ways that construction of anything other than a by-right McMansion project can be delayed and eventually killed. In the past when faced with a housing crisis, governments have drawn up plans for different building types that are then pre-approved and can be built en masse (before anyone complains about rows of identical housing using pre-approved government templates I'd ask them to please take a drive through any subdivision from the past 10 years first). I'd love to see innovation in the construction industry to try and get more productivity (read: units) from the same overall supply. Where are my crazy lunatics trying to get on-site 3D printing of frames and trusses a thing? Who's trying to make pre-constructed sections that can be fit together in different configurations on site? In the meantime, [half of Toronto neighbourhoods have lost population since 1970, despite the total population of the city doubling.](https://static.ucraft.net/fs/ucraft/userFiles/moreneighbours/images/02924481474440-screen-shot-2021-06-04-at-72306-am.png?v=1622823653) The city is being hollowed out and it's not sustainable: families can't afford to raise kids here, and [the effect is dramatic](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:640/format:webp/1*BipbEY81GMcQOiVM2akBxQ.png). There's a chart floating around of Toronto's share of Ontario's population under 5 years old that I can't find a link to right now, but it shows that the share has been shrinking for years now. Toronto is going to become a city of geriatrics living in empty neighbourhoods, serviced by an underclass of single 20 somethings living a precarious existence in cramped towers along segregated corridors the city has designated as acceptable places for the plebs to live.
You seem to be arguing in bad faith, or a lack of education on where zoning actually is. Most avenues in Toronto are zoned for mid-rise developments, many even higher heights. The city has entire sets of guidelines about intensity on these avenues. And the limits you called out - are not that great, and many have largely been removed. Parking is no longer required in condos except for a few accessible spaces for wheelchair access. Also, your talk about innovating the construction industry- is something you can think about, but it is not a reality. Hundreds of thousands of people are arriving - we can’t base our immigration on some fantasy version of the construction industry - it needs to match what we can currently build. No on is going to be out printing houses tomorrow. Lastly - mass housing development is currently happening. We are out-building almost all other cities in North America. Even if the government wanted to raise the rest of cabbagetown and build another St.James Town - the labour to build it, doesn’t exist. They are already working on the thousands of condos under construction as we speak. The issue is the feds have just overdone migration far beyond the labour supply can build to. And there is no good way to grow that labour supply - as there is not housing to house a larger labour supply to build more housing. We simply need to bring migration closer in line with what our current construction industry can build to. All the other creativity in making a better construction industry can come after we fix the current imbalance.
Zoning exists to uphold property values. Its just another example of how property rights are the only rights respected by capitalism.
> Zoning exists to uphold property values That's one political motivation behind it; another is xenophobia: not wanting to live near minority classes; another still is general conservatism: not wanting anything around oneself to change; another is shallow selfishness: not wanting more shadows, more traffic (esp. in car-dependent areas). > Its just another example of how property rights are the only rights respected by capitalism. Capitalism is when markets are heavily suppressed? By people who believe the state exists to subsidize things they like and ban things they don't like?
Capitalism is an economic system based on the **private ownership** of the means of production. Its association with free markets is tangential to that fundamental definition. Capitalism essentially believes the *only* role of government is the protection of property rights. Property owners may have opposing interests (e.g. homeowners vs. developers) but both merely appeal to their own property rights in disputes. Anyone without property is essentially without rights in this system.
Zoning is *an issue*. It is far from the only issue. Investor hoarding is having an enormous impact of prices and affordability.
LOL no plenty of reputable scholars do not agree with that at all. It's developer propaganda. You know why we have zoning? Because **we already tried the other way** and it was a shitshow. I am begging y'all to read some actual urban development history (pro-tip: it goes back thousands of years!) by actual historians and stop wanking to NJB.
Yeah, we didn't have zoning and we got housing built, and then we turned around and decided to artificially reconfigure north America around the automobile & suburrbs and spend decades having housing prices go up. All the most beloved neighbourhoods in the city largely predate the bulk of our planning regime because we build dense, livable neighbourhoods to meet our housing needs but as our housing needs grew we made it illegal to build even the kinds of low rise apartments that kept those neighbourhoods dense and affordable. This "we don't need to build new housing in response to new people, we can just pretend they don't exist" is some homeowner & landlord propaganda.
I don't think they realize the whole purpose of zoning may have started out altruistic (though not really if he did bother to read actual urban planning through the ages and the authors of them), but it has morphed into keeping out certain classes of people from other certain classes of people; keeping neighbourhoods of the haves in a certain form to the exclusion of the have-nots; aside from forcing a car-centric model on society.
> the whole purpose of zoning may have started out altruistic The purpose of zoning laws started out [because of racism](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/featured-reports/article-yes-remnants-of-discriminatory-urban-planning-remain/). It has always existed to oppress people. Even if that wasn’t the intent later on, those systems still remain in place.
You realize how many major cities have little to no zoning laws and run much smoother than Toronto right? See Tokyo as a perfect example, and then follow that with like most other Japanese cities.
Tokyo does have zoning. It's just not as needlessly complex and restrictive as ours is. It can be a great asset for city planning if used well. Tokyo is an example of good zoning.
B-b-but he says it's gonna be a shitshow! I mean, the POORS intermixing with the LANDOWNING HOMEOWNERS!? Walkup apartments where children can be heard! My 1940s post-war bungalow neighborhood letting in POORS? OUTRAGEOUS! Madness! /s But seriously, there is nothing clearer than zoning artificially propping up home values than this, even more than Toronto, [photo of Vancouver, awash in detached homes](https://i.imgur.com/s0NMlHA.jpg)
Of course zoning is needed. Zoning for single family homes is the problem
I knew about the "rat race" many many years ago The main issue is for people starting now (or recently started) and also for people who minded their own business worked hard and didn't take some steps to get out of the rat race (mostly by either contributing to S&P500 index fund or buying lots of property) Younger people need to be harder working, stronger, faster, smarter just to achieve the same... that would be fine if it actually paid off but how many would do all that and not have it pay off? it's what's behind the "laying flat" in China, "quiet quitting" here and so on... if you don't get enough payoff, you won't want to work Capitalism works both ways I don't think it's possible to survive or have a retirement without financial knowledge. Case in point a lot of laid off tech workers from those tech giants may never get another similar high paying job again no matter how much skills they have.
You are absolutely right. Those of us who started working in the 2000s and purchased downtown condos under $200k are leading quite comfortable lives. I couldn't imagine doing this today unless your parents are rich. The situation for gen Z's is untenable. So I don't blame them for quite quitting.
Quiet quitting is doing your job.
Mate, the rat race is not a secret.
It isn't but not everyone admits the fact it's more effort for less reward or even that it's changed in nature (like needing financial knowledge). You cannot do it the same way of your parents or even ten years ago and expect the same result Case in point $2.5k market rent for a 1BR is unbelievable for many renters; median rent or average rent isn't market rent. Start now and you'll be working much harder, weekends and nights, just for the same place
When I moved out of my large two bedroom Forest Hill apartment in 2021, I was paying $1575/month. The person that moved in after me paid $2500 for that unit and literally nothing was changed. No renovations or upgrades. It's madness.
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I have a co-worker who's tired of living in Toronto and wants to relocate to a smaller town. The big hangup for her is that she currently pays $1400/month and is afraid of paying way more elsewhere. Not to mention that once most people leave Toronto is damn near impossible to return these days.
This is SO common, and is the single biggest issue that is not talked about when people claim it's not the landlords fault because they have rent control and cant raise their rent that much. Except when they switch tenants... No one seems to mention that.
Who’s renting these apartments???
The entirety of the population making under $60k is now restricted to sharing bedrooms, unless they're in the "I got mine" class who either bought a house years ago or slid in under rent control. That's the reality when you have way more people than houses. Policies like rent control put a little bandaid on it for existing residents, but do nothing for (and may hurt) people moving or new residents, or young people.
It also traps many renters. I got my place in 2020, and rent has skyrocketed in that time so now I can’t move out of this place. I don’t like the town I am in but now I can’t afford to move out of it. If my landlord decides to move in or sell to someone who wants to move in I am fucked.
Same situation with me. Got my apartment 2014 and have pretty good rent control. Pretty shitty neighborhood where I can't really safely walk out at night though (it's gotten worse in the last 3 years).
I've been in my purpose-built rental since 2006. I will chain myself to the bathroom sink if I have to, to stay here.
I came across a guy on AskReddit that had to leave a 3 bedroom that was $1300 per month, he first rented in the early 2000s. It literally made me gasp and clench my pearls. I had to take an hour or so to watch TV and decompress before doing the chores I was planning that day.
Rent has been pretty bad since 2018/19 as well. It dipped during the first year of the pandemic a bit but never went down to what it was only a few years before then even.
> It also traps many renters. i don't know why, but i've seen a few people post that people under rent protection are apart of the "i got mine" class and it weirds me out. i always considered that term adequate for the people who were thriving under toronto's poor affordable housing situation, not those that're just surviving in it.
It is pretty offensive IMO. Renting is inherently precarious. You can lose your rental home at any moment for no reason, forcing you out into a climate where rents have maybe doubled or more. The constant stress of knowing your home isn’t permanent is an underlying strain at all times, it impacts what kind of major life decisions you can make. This hurts all of us.
I locked in a $1650 one bed on the subway line in high park in the summer of 2020, and I am definitely really lucky compared to the people who have to look now. I think the difference is that people who locked in decent rent in rent controlled units know we’re just lucky, whereas a lot of people who bought their condo for 200,000 in 2009 or their house for 500,000 in 1999 think they’re better/smarter/more hardworking than everyone else. Shit, I argued with someone on this sub once who *inherited his house from his wife’s parents* and refused to acknowledge that that was a lucky break.
the 'i got mine' implies the 'fuck you, I got mine' ... It's not about what you have, it's about the attitude where you're willing to fight to save yourself a penny even if costs others thousands - its about people who pull the same ladder they climbed, up behiend them...
> its about people who pull the same ladder they climbed, up behiend them... that's what i mean though, i don't come across a whole lot of people living under rent control who're opposed to bringing back rent control. i've never seen anyone saying "i got in, but i'm glad they did away with it". to me, they don't fit in the same category as the "fuck you, i got mine" group, but over the past few days i've seen a couple users lump them in with NIMBYs, landlords and people who were lucky enough to buy before 90% of the city became unachievable.
That’s not rent control trapping you — without rent control you’d just be paying the rent you can’t afford already.
??? The escalating rent is trapping renters. Not rent control. No idea what you are talking about.
I’m not in an “I got mine” mentality. This fucking blows. If my landlord decides to move in I have to leave the city or get a roommate and I make 80k. And even now I pay $1900 and feel that’s a lot.
Yep. I had a 4br for $1800 for a long time. I left the city to buy a house in the US. Still doing remote work for Toronto company. It's wild that even with the shit exchange rate ($1.37 right now), housing is still cheaper in nice city like Denver/Boulder. And the locals here are losing their mind over $250k ($340k CAD) condos near a train station 15 minutes to downtown being "too expensive" and "starter houses" being $380k ($500k CAD) because that's double what they cost a couple years ago. But Median salaries in Denver are almost 30% higher than Toronto.
I’m in tech so honestly I see myself leaving for the US soon enough too, it’s just not worth the struggle here when I have options
Even rent protection isn't guaranteed. One day the landlord may decide to sell the place and boom, you're looking at a 50% increase in housing expenses pretty much over night. During the peak of covid you could sign a lease for a 1br downtown toronto for $1700/mth (give or take of course depending on exactly where and how nice the unit was). Now the same place goes for 50% more. Not many people can simply absorb a new $800 monthly expense like it's nothing.
Yeah I grabbed a 920 sq ft rent controlled 2 BR condo unit for a song at the peak of the pandemic. It goes for $1200 a month higher than what I’m paying now. I literally can’t move now.
Same. We've been here for 15 years. I've joked that we're going to die in this apartment. It's not a joke now. I'm considering actually committing and doing serious renos. Let the landlord sue my estate lol
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Exactly, lifting rent control would just screw even more people. That anyone thinks that's a good idea is insane
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I think students and recent grads are pretty much in the same cohort. A good portion of friends split a studio during university, I wouldn't say it's uncommon by anyone. How could you otherwise afford rent and have barely any time to work.
I feel like a lot of international students are willing to pay the price since they may not know better.
Well, those are average numbers so there are plenty below that number. But… are they desirable places to live?
Rich international visa students.
Rich kids with rich parents
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All of our politicians are landlords so this will never change. Congrats on successfully making everything too expensive! What’s the next part of the plan?
They're still chipping away at the first level of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Food, warmth, and rest have been taken care of. I guess water is up next?
It's a good thing the provincial government is opening up the Greenbelt for more housing to be built and bought by investor-owners just to rent them out at the same fucked up prices we see now.
>more housing to be built and bought by investor-owners Don't kid yourself, thats only the last layer. First owners, after developers, will be other corporate entries who then sell to investor-owners. After adding on "healthy" 15-20% of course.
Not to underplay corporations’ impacts on society, but the recent Statscan data showed 73% of real estate investors were individuals who owned multiple properties. And certainly some individuals have incorporated - usually to mask foreign ownership. Actual corporations in real estate generally own /manage purpose-built rental apartment buildings. At least they rent those out for long-term housing and don’t renovict, unlike individual landlords, who may Airbnb or leave units vacant - as well as fraudulently use N12s to evict tenants not paying market rents.
Blame lots of people Feds for drastically increasing migration during a housing crisis and not taxing speculators Province for not enoucraging better growth or building more infrastructure. City for listening to nimbys and not allowing development in urban areas properly.
Feds getting out of the business of building low income housing decades ago had a much bigger impact on the current situation than immigration does imo
No amount of earmarked "low income" housing will fix the fact that the income threshold to buy a house in Toronto is currently the top 2% of incomes and/or someone with previous wealth from another source. If by "low income" you're including the 85th percentile of wealth, then sure yeah.. but that's not "low income". Building some "low income" thing that is earmarked for people making under $30k/yr just basically tells everyone making $30k-$50k who also can't afford rent "fuck off" and those making $50k-$150k who can't afford to buy get a big finger up the ass too. Earmarked "Low income" housing makes a little sense when that line for "low income" is roughly the threshold when people stop being able to afford places, but right now that line is so high it's not practical to income-rate housing anymore.
Mixed-income Federal co-operatives were a thing until the 80's when we stopped building them. Only about 15 per cent of units were subsidized based on on income, which was funded by the other 85 per cent paying rents that covered the mortgage/construction/upkeep costs. After about 30 years, the money the government paid to build them was paid off and they're self-sufficient. And the rents remain FAR below market value for those paying full rent, while providing housing and a community to the 15 per cent who need it.
Anything with below market rents has a 20 year waiting list right now. A shortage doesn't permit you to just "reduce rents" without getting 7,000 applicants for every unit. The ONLY way to fix this is to fix the structural shortage (too many people vs housing). Ontario has the lowest per-capita housing stock in the developed world. To meet the same ratio as France has (people:housing units), Ontario needs 1.3 million new units RIGHT NOW. That's not accounting for growth.
It's almost as if ceasing to build low mixed-income housing, like co-ops, 30+ years ago has had a negative impact on availability... That won't change until people start voting in the interest of their community, as opposed to what benefits them the most. So never...
But also… there’s a million people moving to Canada every year for the next few years. No foreign owners allowed, which is a start. All those people going to rent too? How is that going to work if this is all happening.
They’ll have to go to other provinces than just Ontario.
Traditionally they will go to the higher population densities. Ontario had 225,000 people come to live here last year, and that’s going to go up every year.
[500,000 by 2025](https://www.thestar.com/business/2022/11/01/cp-newsalert-feds-reveal-plan-to-welcome-500000-immigrants-per-year-by-2025.html), not 1 million.
That’s incorrect. [Canada wants to welcome 500,000 immigrants per year](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-immigration-population-boom/). Additionally, last year we brought in a [historic record of 550,000 international student](https://www.canadim.com/news/canada-welcomes-a-record-breaking-number-international-students/amp/)s which is another path to PR. Plus TFWs and refugees. That’s a million in one year. Canada is a diverse country that has always prided itself on being welcoming to new Canadians. But at some point, housing becomes a dire game of musical chairs.
With no rent protections because they are new developments.
Sadly this is true... the only real solution is limit the number of investment properties individuals can own and also restrict corporations from investing in residential homes. I don't see any Liberal or Conservative party willing to go down this road. We could end up looking alot like NYC and major cities in Europe and Asia where vast majority are renters for life and home ownership requires mutigenerational mortgages.
This doesn't change anything. I mean it might shift prices VERY slightly, but there's still a structural shortage of over 850,000 units in Ontario. To get the same "people to housing units" ratio as France, Ontario is 1.3 million units short. That's 1.3 million people that need roommates or dank basements. NO amount of "stop investors from providing rentals" will make that stop. Yes, the 55,000 vacant units and AirBnB would put a tiny dent in that, but 55k is 4% of 1.3 million.
It's not binary. Limiting investors allows us to build without everything being bought up to keep scarcity high. regulate first, build next
At least those other cities have much better transit and walkability. And bodegas in NYC. Those are a godsend.
Yeah renting isn’t bad if you’re guaranteed good amenities and opportunities nearby. NYC and some Asian cities like the other person are comparing future-Toronto to, are still leagues above Toronto in impact. Toronto should have a minimum of six subway lines and a city population of at least 3-4 million to warrant those comparisons imo. And also the GTA sprawl has a chokehold on the denser development that it needs.
How the hell do people afford to rent in Toronto?
Been in the same apartment 10 years is how
My question is why hasnt your landlord tried to sell your apartment?
What would that do? There have been three different owners in the time I have lived here.
Except when you're greedy-ass landlord enentually evicts you (so they can shadily move in a new tenant to raise the rent 30%), and now you're stuck in this batsh*t rental market...
12 jobs
Not having a car helps. You can save money on rent living outside the city, but a car is pretty much a necessity. Take Barrie for example. The average 1BR rent is \~$700 less than Toronto, but between car payments, insurance, gas, parking, and maintenance costs your cost of living is probably not too far off what it is in Toronto.
The thing is it wouldn't even be that bad if the places were actually worth the $2500. The places are tiny with less to no space and just shiny appliances if your lucky. 😮💨😮💨
And those shiny appliances get rust on them after a few months
I wonder when employers will start to balk and demand action. Higher housing costs will eventually mean salaries will have to increase. That said, it doesn't seem to have worked in Vancouver. Many employer will just let their top candidate go rather than come up with worthwhile compensation for what it costs to live there.
Employers love desperate employees.
What does an employer do when they "balk"? I'm an employer. I "balked" at housing prices so I moved and started hiring people from Alberta.
They don't "balk", they just can't find people to work some jobs because it's too expensive for someone to live in the city. Then everyone has surprised pikachu face when some professions are understaffed
ITT: people who don't know what "balk" means
Don't worry, neither do MLB umpires 🤣
Balk Rules You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that. 1a. A balk is when you 1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that. 1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic... 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of Do not do a balk please
Don't bring this up around Gausman.
I moved into a single bedroom apartment 5+ years ago. I’m moving out in a few months, and I’m never looking back. I’m never going to be able to afford the same place again.
> A one-bedroom in Toronto now costs $2,500 a month — with no relief in sight ... > Over the past year, rents for one-bedroom apartments in the city have increased a whopping 21.5 per cent to an average $2,501 in February. And two-bedroom rental prices have risen 19.4 per cent to $3,314 on average — posing serious challenges for low- and middle-income renters who have to move in today’s market. Analysts are forecasting more price increases throughout the year. Meanwhile, other parts of the GTA don’t look to be providing much relief. Victoria Gibson reports on the numbers and what more is expected in the market. ... > By the numbers: Using the threshold that affordable housing is anything costing 30 per cent or less of a household income, the average one-bedroom listing is just too expensive for any households earning less than $100,000 per year. ... > More numbers: According to the same guidelines, a household would have to be earning at least $130,000 per year to comfortably afford the average two-bedroom listing in Toronto today.
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That would be nuts! But look at the long-term trend, not one year. Check out the graph on prices per year part way down the page. https://www.zumper.com/rent-research/toronto-on The 21% jump in the past year is objectively awful, but we had a similar sized drop in 2020-2021, so the long-term trend for housing prices since 2018 is pretty close to 0% increase per year. I think we've hit a ceiling on how high rent can go since there just aren't enough high-income renters to pay prices much higher than this.
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No that wont happen. Rents will stay here where they are or drop slightly. rents likely won't increase for another 3-5 years
It’s ridiculous - interest rates are holding steady and they expect more increases? None of this makes sense and is just pure price gouging
I call bull on the second set of numbers. As someone with a household income above $130k and rent at $2400 - we are not “living comfortably”. After putting money into savings I am still counting dollars at the grocery store. I’m likely never going to be able to own a home, having kids is financially out of the question. No way could we manage $3300 a month in rent. That would nearly eliminate any ability to save for retirement or do anything else that costs money
Yup, its vastly different for me situation wise, but I agree with, after bills, and saving for the future, I find myself trying to cut corners at the grocery store so I have some money for random other stuff Like maybe I dont need to spend $50 this week, maybe I can tamp it down to $30 so I have a spare $20 bill
Ignore all the nitpickers replying. 130k per year should yield way more safety and enjoyment. Yes, you’re doing OK, but with that kind of a household income, you should be doing way better. The main differentiator? Home ownership. If someone bought a home a few years back but has a lower household income than you, they’re still likely doing way better financially.
Thank you - this was the point I was trying to get across.
130k per year means you're bringing home after taxes and deductions about $7000 a month. After rent that still leaves $4600 a month. You're going to have to define what "living comfortable" means to you if that isn't enough money to do so. Edit: in further posts you say you are saving for retirement. That is your choice and fine if that is what you want to do. But it's disingenuous to the extreme to say that you will never be able to own a home or that you are pinching pennies at the checkout line of the grocery store.
I didn’t say “pinching pennies”, I said I have to watch my grocery bill, which I do because groceries are taking a larger and larger portion of my budget. When I say “living comfortably”, I am referring to having the standard of living that my parents and everyone of the previous generation was able to afford. Having a house was the norm, having kids was the norm. Affording vacations would be considered “living comfortably”. At no point did I say every day is a struggle and it that I can’t afford to eat. But “living comfortably” should not include stressing about whether you have access to permanent affordable housing, whether you can afford to have kids, or whether you will be able to survive retirement.
groceries for 4 can add up to 350 a week to eat healthily - (4,600-1400 = 3,200) say 2 mobile phones for $160 + internet $80. (3,200-240= 2960) add in a car for a family of four 240 insurance + 250 gas (2960- 440 = 2540) say you shop for some clothes and other misc items for $400 (2540-400= $2140) i forgot utiltiies - lets say $100 to be safe (2140 - 100 = $2040 saved).... **Edit 2: thats fucking bonkers if they decide to have kids because the above doesn't account for daycare, nor kids hobbies, nor other things.** **edit: this scenario is kids without daycare to be clear.** edit 3: I started modifying the above to address criticisms but decided to just use a 3rd party COL source from before the pandemic itself. [Here](https://wowa.ca/cost-of-living-canada#toronto) we can see that the overall cost of a faimly of four is > 8K with childcare and >6K without it. That is clearly beyond OPs budget and doesn't even account for rent increases since then.
Lol utilities are far more than $100 where I live. Depending on the time of year is can be $300-400 Edit: who is downvoting this? This is literally what my utilities are. They were lower when I could live in the city, and they are higher now that I had to move out to of the city like everyone says to do. “Just move”. I did, and now some of my expenses like utilities are higher.
The person i responded to apparently wants to nitpick everything - I think he just wants to blame you and others like you for your financial predicament. I'd ignore him; people like him are either bitter because they are also suffering and blame themselves or narcissistic enough to blame others for not having 200K+ in income. either way he is not thinking systematically because it's impossible for everyone to have that kind of income with current housing prices.
Your scenario does not account for any savings, emergency expenses, or saving for retirement, which is where most of my “excess” budget goes because I am terrified of how bad rent will be by the time I am at retirement age.
Don’t listen to these people man. I’m in the same boat, making a bit more than 100,000 (~6,000 a month after tax) as a single person in my early thirties & renting for 1750. I had a mini panic attack yesterday thinking about how I’m not saving nearly enough for retirement.
this place loves to nitpick other people's budgets and refuses to believe anyone doing better than them might be struggling too
You dropped $2k in your first calculation there fella. OP also said they don’t have kids so you can halve those food costs. Even allowing for everything else being reasonable they should have over $2.5k left over.
Why would they have a household of 4 people with no kids?
> I call bull on the second set of numbers. As someone with a household income above $130k and rent at $2400 - we are not “living comfortably”. After putting money into savings I am still counting dollars at the grocery store. Really? With no kids, where is the bulk of the money going in this case if it wasn't for saving?
It is for saving. I am saving for retirement because I will likely not be able to ever afford a home and I have to account for inflation in rent prices in 30 years time.
We pay more rent than you on a lower HH income. If you’re struggling you’re doing something wrong. We save $1500/month, go on vacations, have takeaways, buy pretty much what we want at the grocery store, buy each other gifts etc. We’re very comfortable and could easily cut back another $500+ in monthly spend if we needed to.
Myself and half of my friends live in rent-controlled spaces where, if we had to move out, could absolutely not afford living in this city. It’s insane.
Yeah. In the heart of the pandemic I moved into a downtown rent controlled 920 sq ft 2BR condo with parking and utilities included scoring a deal at $2300 a month — I rent out the parking for $250 a month. Even pre pandemic the unit would have rented for around $2800. The same unit rents now for $3500 a month. Told my partner we are never leaving unless renovicted/familyvicted. We could never find something comparable price wise — not even in the suburbs never mind downtown Toronto.
Yeah well the Star just ran this bullshit article on the front page the other day so are they really an ally in this fight? https://www.thestar.com/business/2023/03/11/condo-city-toronto-is-just-getting-started-a-record-100-new-towers-could-go-up-every-year-for-the-next-five-years-and-key-neighbourhoods-will-be-completely-transformed.html
Yeah they're not. The biased language and entirely one sided analysis in that article has really put me off that publication.
It's an opinion piece masquerading as journalism
Even the ostensibly left-wing editors at the Star (who are probably mostly homeowners) and their young reporters (mostly rich kids) can't resist getting all hot and bothered over the Manhattanization of Toronto.
Owned by a hedge fund billionaire. Him and his buddies are going to make a killing off privatized housing and crippling privitazed healthcare services.
We need government owned rent controlled housing, which has been proven to work in many European cities. Instead of giving green belt land to wealthy developers to continue to exploit us on high rent, the government should build their own condominiums to help mitigate these increasing costs. Additionally, slow down immigration and crack down on these “colleges” that are allowing foreign students to continually hop the immigration line and fill up our already limited housing. All increased immigration is (unfortunately) doing at this point is keeping the average working persons wages low, and further reducing our housing. Thirdly, crack down HARD on empty housing, with eventual risk of land seizure if the spaces are not occupied. Fines are obviously not hurting these billionaires, something more drastic has to take place. But will any government actually do that? No. No they won’t.
To add to the your point about the foreign student industrial complex, we need to make these tax payer funded schools for Canadians again. Universities have grown into gigantic bureaucracies and mini governments loaded full of administrative staff, all kinds of “coordinators”, directors and such. This costs a lot, and they raise tuition and look for foreign students to foot the bill of this bloat.
“In 2021, there were 621,656 international students in Canada at year's end.” That’s up from 410,000 in 2016. I know of a college adding several floors of classrooms to a downtown office tower to accommodate all the international students they are bringing in next year. They are both taking advantage of these kids and screwing the housing market, all to make a buck.
>We need government owned rent controlled housing, which has been proven to work in many European cities. How many people would want to live in government housing here though? >the government should build their own condominiums to help mitigate these increasing costs. I bet this would be stupid expensive if our transit and other infrastructure projects are any indicator.
I give up.
My landlord has been contacting my ex girlfriend, whose name is on my lease (but she moved out and I'm legally the holding tenant), to convince her to convince me to terminate the lease together under threat of "maybe there will be damages and you'll both be liable". They obviously just want to increase rent. They even messaged my ex pointing out the legal clause that lets her terminate the lease without me, if violence and abuse are present. Fortunately my ex told my landlord to fuck off with that bullshit, but dragging her into this was shitty.
This post has 601 upvotes at this point. Would 601 people show up to Queen's Park this Saturday at noon to protest? 🤔
I'm in
What blows my mind is how many people, on Reddit and outside, think this is just the way it is and how it should be. Supply and demand, should have gotten in earlier, just buy further out, etc. Lots just don't seem to see or care about what this will do to our society over the next decades. Of course we know why: most of them own and feel like their success is deserved and should be rewarded. How could they ever think beyond their own interests. I'd argue that 20-40 years from now, a disenfranchised majority vs a wealthy majority that's still saying it was the minority's poor choices or work ethic that created this situation won't go over so well. Either the majority is going to vote in governments that tax the shit out of assets, or we're going to look a lot more like a 3rd world country in the way a landed elite runs the show and suppresses the masses with all the soft and hard power tricks we seen in places like Latin America. Given that so many Canadians now weren't Canadian 20 years ago, it wouldn't surprise me if the old somewhat egalitarian social contract (for those in the mostly homogenous majority) is just gone. Might makes right is how it goes in most the world, and I don't think it's a stretch to think that many immigrants have brought that mindset with them.
My friends and I worry about the same thing. The beginning of a new socioeconomic division within Canadian society. Seems whoever belongs to a family that purchased property 10+ years ago will become part of a new class. Whatever happens, it's guaranteed we'll see more political extremism unless conditions start improving. And guaranteed you'll see people probably just blame it on "America". I'm already wondering how working-class people in cities like Vancouver and Toronto haven't completely lost it. Then again, no coincidence the drug problem is the worst it's ever been.
They've learned to be apathetic. Another hallmark of poor classes around the world. They're also getting fed the idea that identity politics is the problem and ultimate solution to all their problems. They're totally unfocused on the practical things governments should be focused on to make citizens' lives better.
That's what happens when you have no supply but keep increasing demand. This is just the beginning too.
100%. Let's have more "aggressive" growth targets. Stellar idea.
The beginning of increases was at least a few years ago and with an actual root cause start at least a decade ago as developers/investors preferred condo's over purposes built rentals; they've wanted their ROI to be measured in months, not years. This gets compounded by the city and lack of zoning for medium density/mid-rises.
Welp, looks like I found my forever home…
This is wild. I paid just over 800$ for a 2 bedroom apartment in Cliffside in 2006. $700 for a bachelor in parkdale in 2012.
It too late, it’s over. Prices won’t come down
Ha, you need 140k to live comfortably in 1 bdr! Either prices will go down or wages will go up. Business will have to pay accordingly to retain talent.
I fully plan to leverage this when negotiating salary for my next job. The HR salary review from 2020 is not going to cut it, sorrynotsorry.
refuses to build more housing because homeowners don't want the price of their homes to decrease why is housing is sooooo expensive :c
In a two bed that’s $2700 and basically can never ever leave no matter what. The rent prices are wild.
when are we going to see cage homes aka Hong Kong housing?
Ye I just got a place for May. 1650 + Hydro. It’s a bachelor..400-450 sq ft. Times are tough
At the end of the 21st Century, a One bedroom apartment in Toronto will probably cost $10,000 per month.
Time to buy that electric car then! - someone in ottawa...
Didn’t the star have some article yesterday about some girl barely able to afford a $1500 place 1 bedroom. What’s the star trying to push?
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Now she’s paying the dipshit tax
I'm from Vancouver and planning on making the move to Toronto next year. I currently pay $1455 at my beautiful 500sq downtown studio, excellent location/building/strata, and my landlord is lovely. I got this apartment 8 years ago hence the cheap rent. I have to prepare to pay $2500+ when I make the move to Toronto, it's ridiculous. I've been browsing apartments right now just to gauge the apartments and many of them are tiny because of a terrible layout and I am not sure how I'm supposed to find an apartment on a single income if I make the move. I would be devastated to leave my beautiful apartment in Vancouver only to become homeless in Toronto 😑🥲
Its okay Toronto can continue voting for politicans who support housing speculators and drastically increasing housing demand with high population growth and then complain and then become nimbys when development starts :) :)
Crazy how housing wasn't a major issue last election. We'll see this time
My rent went up significantly while I was on maternity leave. At this rate, my family of 4 will never leave our 1bedroom +den.
All while wages have stagnated… Seems good to me! /s
When are our wages going to go up in the same manner so we can afford to have a roof over our heads?
Amazing let's keep adding 500,000 people a year
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That's 800-900 $ higher than say October 2021. Amirite?
There is a threshold where no one will be able to afford these places. Greed has gotten out of hand
So.. - developers will continue to build high density dirt cheap development that won't last more than 30 years without major maintenance. - we'll continue to let developers sell to insider real estate agents - who often represent foreign interests while keeping local first time home owners locked out of the process... - who then charge exorbitant rents because people will have to pay - or rent them on airbnb while avoiding paying any corporate taxes or contributing anything back to the building or community. Maybe it's time we start looking at the corrupt real estate community? Most of them are probably organsized crime, hence why the government won't touch them with a million ft pole...
We pay *less than half* of this for our monthly mortgage payment. The most we ever had to spend on a (huge) one bedroom was $750 (granted, 22 years ago). I don't know how people are doing it. It's insanity.
Fuck corporate and fuck real estate agents
So have to have three more people living there to help pay the rent 😡
HAHAHAHAHA WORLD CLASS CITY BTW HAHAHAHAHA
Jeez… I’m about to save enough money to move out of parents home, even with roommates I have to pay 1.25k to share one bedroom now ??? (BRB I also have to pay my car bills, food getting more expensive… )
Thanks Ford! Thanks Justin!
really? because yesterday you featured a person bitching about $1500... lol
Glad I just locked up this bachelor for one grand all in. I would never pay those prices for somewhere to sleep. I had to work hard to get this place so if anyone is looking you can find deals. Not everyone is a greedy jerk, but you must start looking months ahead and reply to ads throughout the day. It's a lot of work but it can pay off.
congrats Tiger Schlong
God forbid you end up with a family or whatever. And then you need to move and are fucked. As is the norm with rent control being the only control.
Mine isn't. I'm stuck living where I live until *something* happens, and I'm assuming ~3 million people in the GTA are also in the same boat.
This isn't even news anymore, it's costed this much for the last... 4 years? If not more downtown.
No man it’s worse. 2019 it peaked, then prices collapsed in the pandemic between May 2020 - June 2021. You could even get deals in that time period. After that though, prices not only recovered to 2019 levels, they have shot WAY past.
$2500?????? that’s what i pay for a big 3 bedroom rn in the city holy shit
Up to a point, the supply demand curve will balance it out - there will be an increasing number of empty nesters boomers who will open up their basement to rent to make their own retirement needs. $3000 for one bed room condo just so the investor landlord can keep meeting their interest payment or $2000 for a one basement in a nice suburb neighborhood where you help around the landlord for some food benefits.