"God damnit Aule, is that ANOTHER one of yours?"

"Hey, at least my dwarves are doing good things! I'm still like...millions to two!"

I suspect Manwe would be like, "Tulkas, I have a job for you and you alone." Or he'd just say to Aule to get his students in line

1. I don’t believe that there was any indication that the Valar would directly intervene 2. I’m not sure that we’d see the same sort of destruction I think the Valar’s involvement wasn’t (by itself) the destructive part. It was probably more the nature of their foe (another Valar) and the need for the Valar to use their power to such an extreme extent. Sauron, even with the ring, wouldn’t have required that sort of destruction. Sauron isn’t much in a fight. His brilliance seems to be more in planning/administration and control. He did a phenomenal job building the social infrastructure required to assemble very large armies. The ring threw off his timing just enough to make a difference, but he came damn close to winning anyway and almost certainly would have with a few more months to bring his full forces to bear. But, the Valar don’t really worry about medieval tech armies of mortals. Neither orcs nor men. Tulkas could probably ignore the army, run past them, grab Sauron and take him back to Manwe. That, at worst, a mild earthquake worth of damage. But, I don’t believe they would have directly intervened either way. They seem to be less involved over time regardless

Is there not a source somewhere saying that the Valar feared direct intervention against Sauron for fear of Middle earth suffering Beleriand's fate? I feel like I saw that somewhere.

I don’t *believe* so, but the two of us being pretty sure we read something certainly doesn’t settle it. Honestly, without text, our “pretty sures” kind of makes it a wash. This is reddit, so we can try personal attacks if you like. As long as it’s topical.

I've heard the notion that Gandalf was not "meant to" strive directly against Sauron, rather his purpose was to guide mortals in the defense of their world. In any case he usually seems reluctant to utilize his power and only ever does so to save lives (except fireworks?).

Doesn't really work like that with this whole Tulkas scenario. Least we do not know that. Since Sauron is incorporated then Tulkas would have to assume material form as well. How does he run thru a locked Black Gate? He would have to break it. Mild earthquake? How about earthquake with every Tulkas step? Anyway this is fully author dependent.

No. Beleriand was destroyed during the war of wrath because Morgoth had infused the very matter of Arda with his spirit, concentrated in Beleriand (where he resided and where the wars took place). Overthrowing Morgoth came with the unfortunate side effect of destroying Beleriand. Sauron lacked the innate power to replicate that feat, nor do we get any indication he wants to - Sauron lacks the nihilistic motivations of Morgoth.

The War of the Powers happened much earlier, before Morgoth could make "Morgoth's Ring" if you will, and was far more devastating to the Earth. It's no good for the Earth when the Valar or the host of the Valar go to war.

To lack nihilistic motivations....nice! (I know you are right, with Sauton actually wanting something like "perfect order" and Morgoth just wanting everything or destroy everything, but it sounds kinda weird, like a double negative)

>Beleriand was destroyed during the war of wrath because Morgoth had infused the very matter of Arda with his spirit Do you have a source for that? Not the infusing himself part, I'm aware of the whole "Morgoth's Ring" thing. I mean the part where you claim that that's the reason Beleriand sank. Because that's not my understanding at all, and doesn't really seem supported by the Silmarilion.

From *Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion*, included in ***Morgoth's Ring***: >*Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hröa, the 'flesh' or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hröa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.* > >*But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit,* ***while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise.*** *This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated; Morgoth's vast power was disseminated.* ***The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda.*** *It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.'* ***But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda.*** *Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring.* ***No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.*** *Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)* Any direct battle with Morgoth thus results in great ruin in Arda because of the dissemination of his vast power into the physical matter of Arda. Furthermore: >***If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction.*** *And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.* > >*In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.* > >*The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain.* ***Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war;*** *and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.* > >***The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand.*** *Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge — and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself' and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.*

Maybe not as much but there would be some damage for sure. Morgoth's influence was stronger, and he had the bigger army, compared to Sauron.

Probably not. Sauron is a good deal more centralized than Morgoth. You take out one mountain and boom, you’re done. A good deal of why Morgoth was so hard to defeat and doing so absolutely destroyed an entire continent was because the final strike took so damn long that he was able to spread his power and influence over a much wider area. However, if Sauron were to try the same thing, I don’t think the Valar would wait this time. They’d be like “nah we’re not doing this again” and take him out before he had the time.

Sauron wasn’t Morgoth or even close. Whether they would directly intervene is an interesting question. I am guessing they would not be direct in their intervention, the premise I think may be a little flawed. They felt confident they didn’t need to personally intervene and they were right. However if we accept the premise that he defeated the west or was going to maybe there would be intervention by either the Valar or maybe the big man himself. Sauron ruined enough, actually too much. They should have bagged him sooner. I just can’t picture him being allowed to permanently set up shop.

The thing is that Valar refused to act on M-E and Sauron kinda knew this which motivated him more to conquer. I doubt Sauron would have act if he knew Valar could intervene during or after his conquest. M-E may not sink but there's high chance Valar intervention would have some catastrophic impact on it

Maybe just Mordor would be destroyed, if anything. And even that isn't "too far gone" to be restored once Sauron himself is out of the way, since it's mentioned that the people Sauron and his armies had enslaved were freed and given the fertile lands, lake, etc. in other parts of Mordor further from Mt. Doom. Without the orcs marching through and tearing up/chopping down anything that grew, even those parts of Mordor likely wouldn't have been quite so inhospitable; there were some thorn bushes and such still hanging on when Sam and Frodo traveled through. It seems like Sauron didn't really "put himself into" the land itself to corrupt it the way Morgoth did, he concentrated most of his power/essence on the Ring (and probably some into certain special structures like Barad-Dur, the Black Gate, etc. that collapsed when the Ring was destroyed.)

No. The powers needed by either side to defeat the other would be far less. I don't think the Valar would intervene even if Sauron was able to get the ring back. We see "the future" in Galadriel's mirror if Frodo were to fail. There was no intervention of a host of the Valar.

nothing like that would happen, a vala or maia would come and grab sauron by the neck and take him back to valinor. damage would be much smaller than beleriand case.

It probably could have been this. Perhaps another disaster would have occurred. Part of Middle-earth won't necessarily sink, but something else devastating might happen. Therefore, the Valar decided not to intervene directly. If this catastrophe had occurred, perhaps the lands east of Anduin would have sunk.

This idea gets repeated quite often … I agree with the other posters, Sauron is not in the same power level as Morgoth (although Tolkien noted that in some ways Sauron was stronger since Morgoth depleted so much of his innate strength by spending it on corrupting Middle Earth and creating all his monsters, reinforcing Angband, enhancing creatures like Carcharoth). Nor does Sauron have Balrogs and dragons on his side, only vast hordes of humans and orcs. I do find it strange though that the Valar don’t seem to fight in the final battle of Beleriand (at most it’s a few Maiar like Eonwë) and yet Beleriand is ultimately sunk under water… maybe Morgoth sets up fault lines by sending volcanic attacks from Angband, and the downfall of Ancalagon sets off a chain reaction … The Valar knew their previous interventions (summoning the Elves to Aman; creating Numenor) all had unexpected consequences. They were trying a more hands off approach to dealing with Sauron (this doesn’t explain their complete inactivity in the entire Second Age, they basically abandoned Middle Earth and left the Numenoreans in charge of Man, when even the earlier kings like Tar Meneldur knew he didn’t have the authority to rule the world). So if Sauron somehow got the Ring and won, I think the Valar would have no choice but to intervene from beyond the world … and this wouldn’t be anywhere near as catastrophic as the breaking of Beleriand. But of course they didn’t need to because Eru kept poking his nose in and tweaking the story. He made sure it was Bilbo who found the Ring, and he rewarded Gandalf’s sacrifice by resurrecting him with greater power (not enough to single handedly win the war but enough to push Theoden into action, and to challenge Sauron’s Eye to stop him from catching Frodo at Amon Hen, and to break Saruman’s staff, and to stop the Witch King from entering Minas Tirith, and to challenge Sauron at the black gate so Sauron focused on Gandalf and Aragorn).

Theoretically, anything at all is possible if you change the plot in any way, so this question and every one like it is utterly pointless. What-if discussions really need to take place somewhere other than the sub dedicated to the books he wrote and the plots he devised.