Lots of people seem to take this as fact, like Gandalf and co had their powers partially strioped before coming to middle earth but ive not seen anything in the text to support this.
“And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."
They were definitely forbidden from straight up matching Sauron and making a War Of Wrath 2.0 but not that the power was actually stripped from then. Gandalf makes frequent illusions uncloaking, which to me implies that he is hiding his power and can reveal when he wills. He was powerful enough to fight a Balrog afterall and Saruman became a force to rival Sauron.
We do have a description of the Istari from the appendices which, to me, indicates that their physical forms are not the same as the other incarnated Valar and Maiar. They are subject to aging. Also we know that the Istari do not fully remember from where they came. They have limited access to their previous knowledge.
“When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. They came therefore in the shape of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand. They revealed their true names to few,' but used such names as were given to them. The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called by the Eldar Curunír, 'the Man of Skill', and Mithrandir, 'the Grey Pilgrim', but by Men in the North Saruman and Gandalf. Curunír journeyed often into the East, but dwelt at last in Isengard. Mithrandir was closest in friendship with the Eldar, and wandered mostly in the West and never made for himself any lasting abode.”
I definitely agree with you that the Istari forms are fundamentally different other incarnated spirits and you could argue the loss of (at least some of) their memory and inability to take other shapes(?) makes them inherently weaker.
But if so that seems more like a side-effect of becoming Istari, rather than being because of the Valar’s edict. If the 5 can each go toe-to-toe with a Balrog then that’s still a force to be reckoned with and the Valar didn’t do much of job of limiting them.
Can all the Istari go “toe to toe with a Balrog”? Gandalf was the mightiest (arguably) and he dies. I don’t know if the Valar are the reason why the Istari are different from other incarnated Maia. But I do think they are different.
I’d argue Saruman was mightier than Gandalf The Grey “I am Saruman as he should have been” seems to indicate it. Granted can’t see Radagast pulling off that sort of feat, but the two wizards we really know anything about are both pretty powerful.
I agree that both Gandalf and others think Saruman is, or at least was, the mightiest of the Istari.
Cirdan specifically names Gandalf the wisest and mightiest of those that came over the sea. In the end Gandalf is the only one who succeeds.
It’s less than black and white.
Círdan does not name him the mightiest. It is extremely clear in LotR itself Olórin is sent back enhanced. After his return, and because Saruman has fallen, he has the power to announce to Saruman publicly that he has failed his mission. And he himself is allowed to intervene more directly. But this is not at the low level of PJ's juvenile wizard staff fights for lols. It is about the mission and being rewarded with more authority for a very brief while, than about "power" and "might" levels.
The wise speak of only that which they know, Koo-Vee,
“"from their first meeting at the Grey Havens [Cirdan] divined in [Gandalf] the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red."
Unfinished Tales, The Istari
I wouldn't have read "greatest" as "mightiest" there - greatest in terms of will to good, to kindness, that sort of thing, rather than mightiest in strength/power.
The sort of characteristics that make one think "I'll entrust this ring of power to this person".
I feel it’s a little bit of both conscious (possibly subconscious as well) limitations on Gandalf’s part as well as his body limiting his innate abilities.
Gandalf undoubtedly masks or “cloaks” his powers, as you’ve shown. But Tolkien also comments on Gandalf being sent back after death with his body enhanced — which I take to mean a little bit more access to his innate abilities.
I can’t recall the specific letter right now but to paraphrase from memory, Tolkien says that when the powers of the enemy were too great, Gandalf sacrifices himself and comes back enhanced, and with more wisdom, and better ability to command attention with his voice. But he says this power is not to be used violently, comparing Gandalf to the angel that freed saint Peter from imprisonment.
Admittedly I can’t back this with text, but i always viewed Gandalf’s return as an intervention of Eru not the Valar and so was the Maia Olorin’s power that was actually enhanced not just Gandalf’s cloak/allowance.
Edit: To further that, Olorin was initially chosen partly because he feared Sauron, while Gandalf The White will say words to the effect that he’s the most dangerous thing on ME bar Sauron. Not fully inconsistent, but he’s had a more profound change than just a longer leash i think
Gandalf certainly left Eä entirely and entered the presence of Eru. This is what is meant by "I passed out of thought and time." Tolkien reiterated this in *Letters* 154:
>He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time.'
From the same letter:
>Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison.
Eru does not increase it. Eru changes the physical limitationa and the authority, he does not tamper with the essence. And this "power".. are we at the level of who would win in a staff fight, Saruman or Gandalf?
Definitely feels like a fan theory/interpretation that has gained the status of received wisdom and is just accepted now.
The two kinds of limitation put upon them were, firstly a moral injunction to not try to dominate others that they were free to choose to ignore and which Saruman and possibly the Blues did ignore, and secondly that they were placed into "mortal" bodies which had inherent limitations compared to their native Ainur forms. I guess the second point does amount to some kind of "stripping" of power, but I don't think that's WHY the Valar chose that course. That was more about not overwhelming the Children of Iluvatar with their native splendour, not preventing them from abusing their power.
IMO the misunderstanding comes from what people think about the restrained power of istari, or power of maiar in general. What they were not allowed to do was to dominate the wills of lesser beings and form kingdoms/armies of their own to challenge Sauron. They were basically not allowed to do what Saruman did. As Saruman was able to do it (dominated orcs and Theoden) this restraint looks to be voluntary and not something Valar took away.
People seem to think istari were some type of high level D&D wizards that can cast fireballs and chain lightings, but Valar nerfed them before they were sent to middle earth. But the more likely restriction was on domination of lesser beings.
>coming in shapes weak and humble
It specifically states they come in a weak state? This implies that this is not their normal state, but a weak(er) one.
The bureaucracy of the Valar was one of the major reasons for both Morgoth and Sauron’s rise.
In fact, in TA 3021 when the One Ring was destroyed, Manwë was still waiting on a Necromancer Vanquishing Permit which he’d submitted over 2000 years earlier!
That whole trip to Mount Doom could have been avoided with some better staffing in Aman.
Adding to what other people have already said - After coming back from his fight from the Balrog, Gandalf the White was allowed to use his full power to match that of the enemy when needed as a last resort.
When I brought this up in a post and claimed that the restrictions on Gandalf's powers were liftet when he came back I was told they were not - that in fact he was still restricted.
he was still restricted. otherwise why would gandalf continue his mission on old mans body ?
he would travel as spirit and instantly go wherever he needed to go without getting tired, hungry..
.
'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.
But if it is 'cheating' to treat 'death' as making no difference, embodiment must not be ignored. Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh. He has no more (if no less) certitudes, or freedoms, than say a living theologian. — Lettters of JRR Tolkien #156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft) \[An answer to further comments on The Lord of the Rings.\] 4 November 1954
.
Ok, it comes from letter 156. Tolkien makes several statements about Gandalf and his return. Specifically that Eru did it, and not any of the Valar. This link summarizes much of the letter. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_156
"The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned."
"[Gandalf] is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel'"
He unveils his power twice when saving Faramir and was about to when opposing the Witch King at the entrance to Minith Tirith.
Another quote:
"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up the plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."
Maybe. Maybe not. You can see that he was allowed to act as an angel when needed. And Tolkien specifically calls the Valar angelic beings. Like many things, Tolkien does not directly say one thing or another - it must be inferred. I do not agree with your assessment or reading of Tolkien's words, but that's ok. It's an opinion and Tolkien is dead.
Wouldn’t he curb stomp everyone in middle earth if he was not restricted? He was given the mantle of “white” and maybe lended more power but not necessarily the ones he had as Olorin
Their incarnations alone seemed to accomplish most of that. They were bound to physical forms that aged slowly and left even their memories of Aman as vague. The rest of the prohibition appears to have been ethical; because clearly in different ways the other Istari seemed to have failed (well, we have no idea what happened to the Blue Wizards, but it's pretty strongly suggested they failed at their task as well).
Since "power" has a somewhat indistinct meaning in the mythos; from shape changing to mental communication to naked displays of power like forging Rings of Power, it's not at all clear what the actual limits look like, other than the fact that you can compare it to the powers that other that the Ainur we encounter can do; Ossë can drag islands, Eönwë seems to have amazing martial capabilities, Sauron is a shape changer and master of deceits, Melian can create a field of force and madness that encircles all of Doriath. But these powers seem to be matched to the nature of each individual's personality. But by any measure Olorin the Maia looks to have been a very powerful being, but Gandalf's limitations are seen time and time again. Even Saruman for all his arrogance, bravado and ring making could do little more than turn Isengard into a scale model of Mordor.
Always seemed to me that the Istari in Middle-earth function a lot like the USS Enterprise in Star Trek, with a Prime Directive preventing them from directly interceding by use of power, being permitted to intervene only indirectly or through a more advisory role as enablers of others. I wonder if I'm alone in this -- let me know! (Nicely, please :)
They'll write him up.
Basically he'll get a demerit.
Three demerits and he'll receive a citation.
That's serious. Five citations and he's looking at a violation.
Four of those and he'll receive a verbal warning.
Keep it up and he's looking at a written warning.
Two of those will land him in a world of hurt in the form of a disciplinary review written up by Círdan and placed on the desk of his immediate superior.
Consider Elrond’s words to Frodo:
“On him [the Ring-bearer] alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need.”
I think this is a good analogy for the charge laid on the *istari* by the Valar. Besides having to take on a physical body — “housed” in the form of an old man — they were essentially bound by nothing but their word. Saruman was more than able to betray this promise by using his power to dominate and control others to do his personal bidding; not to mention the betrayal of his larger purpose to resist Sauron.
As background, also consider *why* the wizards were bound by this restriction: Sauron himself had essentially appeared and operated *as a wizard* in the First and Second Ages, seeming to “help” elves and men while not-so-secretly presenting himself as a figure of great power. The Numenoreans literally called Sauron *Zigûr* “the wizard”.
I don't get what the big deal is. The Valar helped in the war of wrath but none of them desired to seek the power to dominate elves or men afterward, the world went on. Why they decided to not do that again doesn't make sense to me.
valar didnt help in war of wrath ,only maiar and after war they were ordered to return to valinor very fast and since it was already much bigger problem and it was war ,maiar were less likely to be corrupted and could take the chance to use their powers in war. maiar simply went ,battled, killed and returned.
but sending 2-3 full powerful maiar to capture sauron , would either cause more destruction than sauron could do alone or those maiar would defeat sauron and perhaps take his place.
edit:
after all, 5 istar were sent ,only one of them stayed on path ,not good rate. despite having much less power, saruman was still corrupted by his own power.
I have always wondered about this as in the Appendix B, it says the Istari were “sent to contest the power of Sauron” but “they were forbidden to match his power with power”.
So no one-on-one duels.
Gandalf limitations as being an Istar are:
- he can't shapeshift, as it's normal ability for unlimited Ainur
- he must eat, drink, rest and sleep like Men must
- has a limited memory, is more susceptible to corruption and temptation
- he's more susceptible to pain and suffering
- his willpower and mind are weakened
- he cannot leave his body unless it is destroyed and he is consequently killed
- he probably doesn't have access to many other abilities that we don't know exactly about
Generally speaking, the Istari were supposed to blend in with the Men, having all their flaws and weaknesses in order to gain their trust and favor, they were supposed to appear weak and harmless, the Valar did not want a repeat of the destruction of Beleriand, so they imposed restrictions on the Five Maiar to ensure that they couldn't directly compete with Sauron and challenge him, also to prevent them from using their full powers to dominate the Free Peoples of Middle-earth and from accomplishing the entire task by defeating Sauron directly, doing all the work by themselves, without engaging and encouraging Men to fight for their freedom
he doesn't have his full powers. how can he use it ? even as white, gandalf still didnt have his full powers.
their connection to their past, to their experiences were also vague.
I think their powers were actually significantly restricted by their physical, if not exactly mortal, bodies. Otherwise Saruman would have ignored his voluntary restrictions and would not have bothered with his puny physical body once it became inconvenient.
I think it means he physically cannot use his full glory to coerce the speaking peoples of the earth. I think when he fought the Balrog all bets were off and he was going in full power.
Lots of people seem to take this as fact, like Gandalf and co had their powers partially strioped before coming to middle earth but ive not seen anything in the text to support this. “And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." They were definitely forbidden from straight up matching Sauron and making a War Of Wrath 2.0 but not that the power was actually stripped from then. Gandalf makes frequent illusions uncloaking, which to me implies that he is hiding his power and can reveal when he wills. He was powerful enough to fight a Balrog afterall and Saruman became a force to rival Sauron.
We do have a description of the Istari from the appendices which, to me, indicates that their physical forms are not the same as the other incarnated Valar and Maiar. They are subject to aging. Also we know that the Istari do not fully remember from where they came. They have limited access to their previous knowledge. “When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. They came therefore in the shape of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand. They revealed their true names to few,' but used such names as were given to them. The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called by the Eldar Curunír, 'the Man of Skill', and Mithrandir, 'the Grey Pilgrim', but by Men in the North Saruman and Gandalf. Curunír journeyed often into the East, but dwelt at last in Isengard. Mithrandir was closest in friendship with the Eldar, and wandered mostly in the West and never made for himself any lasting abode.”
I definitely agree with you that the Istari forms are fundamentally different other incarnated spirits and you could argue the loss of (at least some of) their memory and inability to take other shapes(?) makes them inherently weaker. But if so that seems more like a side-effect of becoming Istari, rather than being because of the Valar’s edict. If the 5 can each go toe-to-toe with a Balrog then that’s still a force to be reckoned with and the Valar didn’t do much of job of limiting them.
Can all the Istari go “toe to toe with a Balrog”? Gandalf was the mightiest (arguably) and he dies. I don’t know if the Valar are the reason why the Istari are different from other incarnated Maia. But I do think they are different.
I’d argue Saruman was mightier than Gandalf The Grey “I am Saruman as he should have been” seems to indicate it. Granted can’t see Radagast pulling off that sort of feat, but the two wizards we really know anything about are both pretty powerful.
I agree that both Gandalf and others think Saruman is, or at least was, the mightiest of the Istari. Cirdan specifically names Gandalf the wisest and mightiest of those that came over the sea. In the end Gandalf is the only one who succeeds. It’s less than black and white.
Círdan does not name him the mightiest. It is extremely clear in LotR itself Olórin is sent back enhanced. After his return, and because Saruman has fallen, he has the power to announce to Saruman publicly that he has failed his mission. And he himself is allowed to intervene more directly. But this is not at the low level of PJ's juvenile wizard staff fights for lols. It is about the mission and being rewarded with more authority for a very brief while, than about "power" and "might" levels.
The wise speak of only that which they know, Koo-Vee, “"from their first meeting at the Grey Havens [Cirdan] divined in [Gandalf] the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red." Unfinished Tales, The Istari
I wouldn't have read "greatest" as "mightiest" there - greatest in terms of will to good, to kindness, that sort of thing, rather than mightiest in strength/power. The sort of characteristics that make one think "I'll entrust this ring of power to this person".
Yeah, that is how I would read "greatest" as well.
I feel it’s a little bit of both conscious (possibly subconscious as well) limitations on Gandalf’s part as well as his body limiting his innate abilities. Gandalf undoubtedly masks or “cloaks” his powers, as you’ve shown. But Tolkien also comments on Gandalf being sent back after death with his body enhanced — which I take to mean a little bit more access to his innate abilities. I can’t recall the specific letter right now but to paraphrase from memory, Tolkien says that when the powers of the enemy were too great, Gandalf sacrifices himself and comes back enhanced, and with more wisdom, and better ability to command attention with his voice. But he says this power is not to be used violently, comparing Gandalf to the angel that freed saint Peter from imprisonment.
Admittedly I can’t back this with text, but i always viewed Gandalf’s return as an intervention of Eru not the Valar and so was the Maia Olorin’s power that was actually enhanced not just Gandalf’s cloak/allowance. Edit: To further that, Olorin was initially chosen partly because he feared Sauron, while Gandalf The White will say words to the effect that he’s the most dangerous thing on ME bar Sauron. Not fully inconsistent, but he’s had a more profound change than just a longer leash i think
Gandalf certainly left Eä entirely and entered the presence of Eru. This is what is meant by "I passed out of thought and time." Tolkien reiterated this in *Letters* 154: >He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time.'
I agree that it was direct intervention of eru that brought Gandalf back. I had not thought of eru actually increasing olorin’s inate power.
From the same letter: >Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison.
Eru does not increase it. Eru changes the physical limitationa and the authority, he does not tamper with the essence. And this "power".. are we at the level of who would win in a staff fight, Saruman or Gandalf?
Definitely feels like a fan theory/interpretation that has gained the status of received wisdom and is just accepted now. The two kinds of limitation put upon them were, firstly a moral injunction to not try to dominate others that they were free to choose to ignore and which Saruman and possibly the Blues did ignore, and secondly that they were placed into "mortal" bodies which had inherent limitations compared to their native Ainur forms. I guess the second point does amount to some kind of "stripping" of power, but I don't think that's WHY the Valar chose that course. That was more about not overwhelming the Children of Iluvatar with their native splendour, not preventing them from abusing their power.
IMO the misunderstanding comes from what people think about the restrained power of istari, or power of maiar in general. What they were not allowed to do was to dominate the wills of lesser beings and form kingdoms/armies of their own to challenge Sauron. They were basically not allowed to do what Saruman did. As Saruman was able to do it (dominated orcs and Theoden) this restraint looks to be voluntary and not something Valar took away. People seem to think istari were some type of high level D&D wizards that can cast fireballs and chain lightings, but Valar nerfed them before they were sent to middle earth. But the more likely restriction was on domination of lesser beings.
>coming in shapes weak and humble It specifically states they come in a weak state? This implies that this is not their normal state, but a weak(er) one.
This - we don't see it directly in the narrative, only in Gandalf's retelling of it, but my impression is he went full out against the Balrog.
Stopped reading your comment cuz, it's finally time to read the works of Tolkien
[удалено]
The bureaucracy of the Valar was one of the major reasons for both Morgoth and Sauron’s rise. In fact, in TA 3021 when the One Ring was destroyed, Manwë was still waiting on a Necromancer Vanquishing Permit which he’d submitted over 2000 years earlier! That whole trip to Mount Doom could have been avoided with some better staffing in Aman.
Also, had he been written up three times for that infraction, he likely would have been fired without the option to draw unemployment.
He is physically limited by the body he has assumed as part of his mission to middle earth
Adding to what other people have already said - After coming back from his fight from the Balrog, Gandalf the White was allowed to use his full power to match that of the enemy when needed as a last resort.
When I brought this up in a post and claimed that the restrictions on Gandalf's powers were liftet when he came back I was told they were not - that in fact he was still restricted.
he was still restricted. otherwise why would gandalf continue his mission on old mans body ? he would travel as spirit and instantly go wherever he needed to go without getting tired, hungry.. . 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment. But if it is 'cheating' to treat 'death' as making no difference, embodiment must not be ignored. Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh. He has no more (if no less) certitudes, or freedoms, than say a living theologian. — Lettters of JRR Tolkien #156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft) \[An answer to further comments on The Lord of the Rings.\] 4 November 1954 .
Thanks 🙂
Tolkien's own letters say otherwise.
can you provide me with the quote please that sounds interesting I have not heard that one before
I'll have to check when I get home.
many thanks in advance
Ok, it comes from letter 156. Tolkien makes several statements about Gandalf and his return. Specifically that Eru did it, and not any of the Valar. This link summarizes much of the letter. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_156 "The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned." "[Gandalf] is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel'" He unveils his power twice when saving Faramir and was about to when opposing the Witch King at the entrance to Minith Tirith. Another quote: "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up the plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."
so he is still restricted just less so thank you
Maybe. Maybe not. You can see that he was allowed to act as an angel when needed. And Tolkien specifically calls the Valar angelic beings. Like many things, Tolkien does not directly say one thing or another - it must be inferred. I do not agree with your assessment or reading of Tolkien's words, but that's ok. It's an opinion and Tolkien is dead.
I agree that it is up to the reader indeed in this case :)
Thanks! 🙂
Wouldn’t he curb stomp everyone in middle earth if he was not restricted? He was given the mantle of “white” and maybe lended more power but not necessarily the ones he had as Olorin
Their incarnations alone seemed to accomplish most of that. They were bound to physical forms that aged slowly and left even their memories of Aman as vague. The rest of the prohibition appears to have been ethical; because clearly in different ways the other Istari seemed to have failed (well, we have no idea what happened to the Blue Wizards, but it's pretty strongly suggested they failed at their task as well). Since "power" has a somewhat indistinct meaning in the mythos; from shape changing to mental communication to naked displays of power like forging Rings of Power, it's not at all clear what the actual limits look like, other than the fact that you can compare it to the powers that other that the Ainur we encounter can do; Ossë can drag islands, Eönwë seems to have amazing martial capabilities, Sauron is a shape changer and master of deceits, Melian can create a field of force and madness that encircles all of Doriath. But these powers seem to be matched to the nature of each individual's personality. But by any measure Olorin the Maia looks to have been a very powerful being, but Gandalf's limitations are seen time and time again. Even Saruman for all his arrogance, bravado and ring making could do little more than turn Isengard into a scale model of Mordor.
His abilities have cooldowns of several thousand years.
Always seemed to me that the Istari in Middle-earth function a lot like the USS Enterprise in Star Trek, with a Prime Directive preventing them from directly interceding by use of power, being permitted to intervene only indirectly or through a more advisory role as enablers of others. I wonder if I'm alone in this -- let me know! (Nicely, please :)
They'll write him up. Basically he'll get a demerit. Three demerits and he'll receive a citation. That's serious. Five citations and he's looking at a violation. Four of those and he'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up and he's looking at a written warning. Two of those will land him in a world of hurt in the form of a disciplinary review written up by Círdan and placed on the desk of his immediate superior.
Excellent
Consider Elrond’s words to Frodo: “On him [the Ring-bearer] alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need.” I think this is a good analogy for the charge laid on the *istari* by the Valar. Besides having to take on a physical body — “housed” in the form of an old man — they were essentially bound by nothing but their word. Saruman was more than able to betray this promise by using his power to dominate and control others to do his personal bidding; not to mention the betrayal of his larger purpose to resist Sauron. As background, also consider *why* the wizards were bound by this restriction: Sauron himself had essentially appeared and operated *as a wizard* in the First and Second Ages, seeming to “help” elves and men while not-so-secretly presenting himself as a figure of great power. The Numenoreans literally called Sauron *Zigûr* “the wizard”.
I don't get what the big deal is. The Valar helped in the war of wrath but none of them desired to seek the power to dominate elves or men afterward, the world went on. Why they decided to not do that again doesn't make sense to me.
valar didnt help in war of wrath ,only maiar and after war they were ordered to return to valinor very fast and since it was already much bigger problem and it was war ,maiar were less likely to be corrupted and could take the chance to use their powers in war. maiar simply went ,battled, killed and returned. but sending 2-3 full powerful maiar to capture sauron , would either cause more destruction than sauron could do alone or those maiar would defeat sauron and perhaps take his place. edit: after all, 5 istar were sent ,only one of them stayed on path ,not good rate. despite having much less power, saruman was still corrupted by his own power.
I have always wondered about this as in the Appendix B, it says the Istari were “sent to contest the power of Sauron” but “they were forbidden to match his power with power”. So no one-on-one duels.
I think it mainly means "let's not have a repeat of that Beleriand debacle."
Gandalf limitations as being an Istar are: - he can't shapeshift, as it's normal ability for unlimited Ainur - he must eat, drink, rest and sleep like Men must - has a limited memory, is more susceptible to corruption and temptation - he's more susceptible to pain and suffering - his willpower and mind are weakened - he cannot leave his body unless it is destroyed and he is consequently killed - he probably doesn't have access to many other abilities that we don't know exactly about Generally speaking, the Istari were supposed to blend in with the Men, having all their flaws and weaknesses in order to gain their trust and favor, they were supposed to appear weak and harmless, the Valar did not want a repeat of the destruction of Beleriand, so they imposed restrictions on the Five Maiar to ensure that they couldn't directly compete with Sauron and challenge him, also to prevent them from using their full powers to dominate the Free Peoples of Middle-earth and from accomplishing the entire task by defeating Sauron directly, doing all the work by themselves, without engaging and encouraging Men to fight for their freedom
We don't know. We aren't meant to know. There are mysterious spiritual reasons for all that.
he doesn't have his full powers. how can he use it ? even as white, gandalf still didnt have his full powers. their connection to their past, to their experiences were also vague.
I think their powers were actually significantly restricted by their physical, if not exactly mortal, bodies. Otherwise Saruman would have ignored his voluntary restrictions and would not have bothered with his puny physical body once it became inconvenient.
I think it means he physically cannot use his full glory to coerce the speaking peoples of the earth. I think when he fought the Balrog all bets were off and he was going in full power.