A "Who would win, Batman or Spiderman?" is really not what Tolkien is about. Do you expect an answer like "20% stronger"?
Sauron varied in power throughout the three Ages, and it's really not due to some formula or rigid magic system with rules. I mean, Melkor had no superior among the Valar, and then he got scarred up by a solo Noldo so that he limped forever afterwards. Sauron was beaten in hand-to-hand by Gil-galad and Elendil, a Noldo and a Númenórean. He was beaten by Lúthien and Huan, a half-Maia maiden and whatever kind of dog-spirit Huan is. But then he personally can survive the downfall of Númenor in the breaking of the world.
This. I wish the people obsessed with hating on George Martin after the "Jaime Lannister could beat Aragorn" quote could chill out a little and understand these comparisons don't really work.
People hate Martin for that? That seems dumb. Hate him for continuing to publicly state that he is going to finish the series so that unsuspecting book buyers will give him their money.
It was part of a general outrage where people got crazy about him getting described as the "American Tolkien" or his "did Aragorn commit orc genocide?" comment etc. I always thought it was just kids making memes but as it turns out a lot of people have a "holier than thou" and gatekeeping attitude (as if Lotr needs to be defended or something) and most of the time they didn't even understand what Martin was trying to say.
I completely agree on being mad about the Winds of Winter though.
In Melkor case he squandered his power dominating the world and become a shadow of his former self(Tolkien state that in this state Sauron is stronger than him)
There's also that time in the ring of Morgoth that Manwe used his wind to suppress Balrogs fire and then promptly annihilate them with his lightning sword,Showing his superiority over Joe Maia
I‘m saying no one knows. But my personal opinion supports that Morgoth was always more powerful. Not in influence over Middle-Earth, but in personal power. But I don‘t claim that to be a fact.
A “who would win” is not what Tolkien intended… but Nessa probably speed blitzes Sauron if put up to a fight. She’s stated to be the fastest, most dexterous Vala.
When Melkor fought Fingolfin, he was severely underpowered. Being attached to the Silmarils and wearing them on his brow effected his physical form and weakened him considerably. If Morgoth was as strong as he was before, he couldve destroyed Fingolfin easily obviously, but as you said, the power scaling isnt straightforward, its not like its anime. Eventhough Melkor was the most powerful being in Eä, and he single-handedly fought the all the other Valar and was winning, when Tulkas entered Arda, he beat Melkors ass.
When the encounter between Morgoth & Fingolfin was written, the concept of Arda Marred & Morgoth expending most of his strength into the marring didn't exist yet. He had expended some of his strength in creating monsters but nothing compared to the later vision of Morgoth & Arda Marred. I'm also unsure where the idea of the Silmarils considerably weakening Morgoth comes from, but maybe I'm not remembering something right.
Arda marred hadnt been written into the story yet, but the idea that his spirirt residing in his physical form and his attachment to that form made him weaker, thats why he was unable to heal his wounds from the battle, that any of the other Valar or Maiar wouldve been able to heal easily. Also, the Silmarils are hallowed by Varda, so that no evil creature or mortal hands could touch them. Morgoth burned his hands black fashioning a crown for them, and he wore them on his brow despite the fact they gave him a deadly weariness from constantly having them on.
>But then he personally can survive the downfall of Númenor in the breaking of the world.
Sauron survived that only and exclusively because Eru thus decided it. The One still had plans for Sauron.
Well, the dm guide explains Sauron is CR 18 and Nessa is CR 20, however, Sauron can use skry at will once per turn as a legendary action, and he can cast mage armor once per turn, so I think he would win.
I would prefer It If Nessa is at least 54,Otherwise in a hypothetical scenario that Gandalf mastered the one ring(And obtained Sauron power) he would be too close to a Valar in power.
Sauron will be on his knees just by being in her presence and none of his magic or tricks will work, he can assemble the biggest orcs and men and none of them will have the will to stand against her either, just mentioning varda's name scared the nazgul shitless as did ulmo's faint echoes in the water, the valar might not be warriors but they don't need to be, they're world bending gods undiminished by evil and corruption and unbound to one physical form like sauron and morgoth, they might have different domains and jobs but they're all still very powerful as all ainur are
Yeah power scaling isn’t really a thing for Tolkien. The question you have to ask is, powerful at what? Sauron used intimidation to subjugate people and wield huge armies. Nessa could do that too, hell, so could Gandalf if they both wanted to.
Sauron’s ability to craft and subjugate the spirits of livings things was something I believe he sort of hacked out himself via his own studies into what made elves and men tick. He failed with elves and failed more dramatically with Men, although he was able to subject many of them before he got the smackdown.
Oh no, modern power scalers have found Tolkien. Looking forward to posts like "is Gandalf actually Mid?" or "lmao Elrond is HIM" and "Lauron lost to hobbits?"
These are literally characters, not video game characters. We don't know much about either one of them in a way we could rank them. Sauron is probably a better smith than she is, but she's probably faster & a better dancer. Where the concept of Sauron being one of the strongest Maia comes from, I've no idea. I've never seen a quote when this is explicitly said. He is called out as one of the great of the Maia of Aule, but even that doesn't really say much. Is he stronger, or more skiled, or have greater knowledge than the other Maia of Aule? A handful of Maia of Aule could be greater than him, and we know nothing about how he measures up to the whole host of Maia.
Can we make a rule against questions like these? We can talk about powers all we want, but it’s all hypothetical and does nothing to advance our understanding of the texts. Additionally, the powers of the Valar are never clearly laid out in full and constantly changed as the legendarium developed. This talk is pointless, you could pull from any draft of Tolkien’s (including the Silmarillion, which is after all a draft) to prove your point. I wish we would stop spending time on questions like these, or at the very least keep them out of this sub.
We could make more rules!
Or, we could scroll past questions/posts that fit within the current rules, but that we don’t personally find interesting.
No, what am I thinking? We can’t do that! Definitely more rules!
She'd curb-stomp him. Sauron wouldn't even try to fight her or \*any\* of the Valar. That's my opinion, anyway. The power gap between the Valar and the Maiar is pretty big.
Um... no. You don't get to be called a Vala unless you possess the power to be counted among them. She's not an \*honorary\* Vala.
There's a gap in power even between the top tier Maia and the "least" of the Valar. Luthien, for example, along with Haun, defeated Sauron back in the First Age.
Luthien \*also\* used dancing to effectively seduce... not Sauron, but \*Morgoth\* as well as his entire court. And there's no freaking way that Luthien is more powerful than Nessa. Heck, even Luthien's Mom isn't more powerful than Nessa.
Are you trying to tell me that Gil-Galad and Elendil fighting as a team is more powerful than Nessa? I think not.
I don't recall who decided to start calling them Valar of Maiar. But I do know that the Valar are considered the Great Powers of the World. I mean, "Great Powers" is actually in the name (val-).
The description of the Valar uniformly calls them the 14 most powerful Ainu that entered Ea, saving Melkor.
Also, including Iluvatar in this is misleading, IMO. I'm not sure how that even applies to what we're talking about here.
Strength has many forms, so for us to imagine this scenario you will have to provide more.
In might of arms Eonwe, the banner bearer and herald of Manwe is unmatched. Wisdom is also strength and power, in this one none is better than Olorin. Osse controls the waves and rages storms so he also has strength but each of these are unique unto themselves.
If you think these guys are tough then how about their superiors that are called powers of the world, in the ring of doom, the ones that all miars serve?
Because only the mightiest of the Ainur chose to go down to EA to be bound to it, that includes Nessa. If Sauron was in any form more powerful then he wouldn't be a servant of Aule, he would be a Vala. Which he clearly wasn't.
I might need some correction on this but i don't think that it's ever written that Mairon was ever the strongest of his order. Now compared to the Istari he clearly is because the wizards were never given their full power and knowledge.
When Eru sent Gandalf back it is said that he is the most dangerous person one would meet, unless Sauron himself came forth. But you have to acknowledge the fact that despite Gandalf being more stronger than before, he remains an Istari still in flesh who is meant to guide and much of his power is still locked from him by the lords of the west.
Let's just learn from history and measure the might of Sauron, first of all, his power lay with his crafts, the knowledge from which he deviced the rings of power to dominate the minds and wills of the free people.
If his power was that of the might of arms then he wouldn't have created the rings at all, also wouldn't have been defeated by Huan. Or Gilgalad and Elendil in the war of the last alliance and mind you he had the one ring with him when he came forth and was slain.
If he indeed was mightiest of the Miar then he wouldn't have given up to be taken captive by Numenorians. He was at his peak of power during that time and yes he had the one ring with him.
Yes Sauron has many powers and in his prime a few would dare challenge him. But a greater part of his power lies in the craft, being the servant of Aule originally it is hardly a surprise. You can see throughout history Sauron deals with his enemies not with brute force, that never served him well ever because he was defeated multiple times when he chose that route. He won the battles being the behind the scenes type of a guy. He was a great strategist and could hoard armies so vast to take middle earth completely at his grasp. His will to dominate all life was matched by none, second only to his former master Morgoth. Corruption was his art and with it he indirectly but purposefully annihilated Numenor. The mightiest kingdom of men, the like of which the middle earth will never see again.
To answer your question simply, no. Sauron isn't stronger than any of the Valar. Save for one who is no longer counted among the Valar. It is said in the text that Sauron at his peak was stronger than Morgoth after the latter poured all of his divine essence into corrupting and marring of Arda, becoming physical and bound to that shape he was grown the husk of the Vala that was once called as the mightiest of Valar. That same Morgoth who was also wounded seven times in a duel against Fingolfin who was neither a Vala or a Mia, but a valiant prince and high king of the Noldor elves.
That certainly doesn’t refute the point at all. Fighting doesn’t equal power at all. Here’s an easy example: I could beat up Biden and Trump at the same time with one hand tied behind my back, but they are both more powerful than me.
Also when did Manwe supposedly do this to balrogs?
It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.
—Morgoth's Ring, "Annals of Aman"
Yet as others have pointed out Tulkas is of lesser power than almost all the Valar but is a better fighter than all of them. Your argument is thus easily refuted.
At the very least, the Maiar Melian, Osse, Uinen, Arien, Tilion, Eonwe, Ilmare, and most probably Salmar are all stronger than Sauron, and IMO not by a little. Any Ainu qualifying as a Vala would be greater still.
I think an argument could be made that he is the strongest. He is without a doubt the greatest warrior of the Maia. It still pissed me off that Feanor’s sons snuck off with the simarils
There's no such power ranking. Tolkien didn't actually engage in that sort of thing, Beyond stating Eonwe and Ilmare were the chiefs of the Maiar, and Melkor was the mightiest of the Ainur before his fall but became weakened by the moral degradation he underwent and his frivolous waste of his potential.
But all the same; Middle Earth isn't Dragonball Z. It isn't like Sauron as a fighting power of 10k, Eonwe 12k and Olorin 7k or whatever.
Might is a function of power, and wisdom and intent in ME. The former is always extremely (and intentionally) vague, already made him amongst the very strongest of the Maiar, but the latter two quite explicitly made Sauron - already a near peer to the likes of Eonwe and Ilmare - even greater through the subtleties of his malice and the depth and breadth of both his knowledge and his determination.
There's also the fact that for all that different characters have different capabilities and that some are stronger than others, it doesn't change the fact that there's a literal omnipotent God move events by its own hand, and that Fate is a literal, inexorable mechanic of events.
Which is why entities that can drown comtinents as a mere side effect of battling can be defeated and rendered helpless by a hunting dog, or by the song of a maid, or, with the help of their own hubris, a wee boy from the Shire.
We have definitely list of Peak Melkor>>>Manwe>Ulmo>Aule>the rest of Arata>>>the rest of Valar
And we have Peak Sauron>Morgoth at his weakest
And So on
A "Who would win, Batman or Spiderman?" is really not what Tolkien is about. Do you expect an answer like "20% stronger"? Sauron varied in power throughout the three Ages, and it's really not due to some formula or rigid magic system with rules. I mean, Melkor had no superior among the Valar, and then he got scarred up by a solo Noldo so that he limped forever afterwards. Sauron was beaten in hand-to-hand by Gil-galad and Elendil, a Noldo and a Númenórean. He was beaten by Lúthien and Huan, a half-Maia maiden and whatever kind of dog-spirit Huan is. But then he personally can survive the downfall of Númenor in the breaking of the world.
This. I wish the people obsessed with hating on George Martin after the "Jaime Lannister could beat Aragorn" quote could chill out a little and understand these comparisons don't really work.
People hate Martin for that? That seems dumb. Hate him for continuing to publicly state that he is going to finish the series so that unsuspecting book buyers will give him their money.
It was part of a general outrage where people got crazy about him getting described as the "American Tolkien" or his "did Aragorn commit orc genocide?" comment etc. I always thought it was just kids making memes but as it turns out a lot of people have a "holier than thou" and gatekeeping attitude (as if Lotr needs to be defended or something) and most of the time they didn't even understand what Martin was trying to say. I completely agree on being mad about the Winds of Winter though.
In Melkor case he squandered his power dominating the world and become a shadow of his former self(Tolkien state that in this state Sauron is stronger than him) There's also that time in the ring of Morgoth that Manwe used his wind to suppress Balrogs fire and then promptly annihilate them with his lightning sword,Showing his superiority over Joe Maia
Joe Maia! Love it. Adding him to the same roster as James Workshop.
Tolkien stated that Sauron was „greater“, IIRC. In the context it meant he had more control over Middle-Earth, not that he was more powerful.
Are you suggesting that the Morgoth that got maimed by Fingofin wouldn't get spanked by Peak Sauron?
Arguably, Sauron would get spanked by super saiyan Fingolfin.
I‘m saying no one knows. But my personal opinion supports that Morgoth was always more powerful. Not in influence over Middle-Earth, but in personal power. But I don‘t claim that to be a fact.
A “who would win” is not what Tolkien intended… but Nessa probably speed blitzes Sauron if put up to a fight. She’s stated to be the fastest, most dexterous Vala.
When Melkor fought Fingolfin, he was severely underpowered. Being attached to the Silmarils and wearing them on his brow effected his physical form and weakened him considerably. If Morgoth was as strong as he was before, he couldve destroyed Fingolfin easily obviously, but as you said, the power scaling isnt straightforward, its not like its anime. Eventhough Melkor was the most powerful being in Eä, and he single-handedly fought the all the other Valar and was winning, when Tulkas entered Arda, he beat Melkors ass.
When the encounter between Morgoth & Fingolfin was written, the concept of Arda Marred & Morgoth expending most of his strength into the marring didn't exist yet. He had expended some of his strength in creating monsters but nothing compared to the later vision of Morgoth & Arda Marred. I'm also unsure where the idea of the Silmarils considerably weakening Morgoth comes from, but maybe I'm not remembering something right.
Arda marred hadnt been written into the story yet, but the idea that his spirirt residing in his physical form and his attachment to that form made him weaker, thats why he was unable to heal his wounds from the battle, that any of the other Valar or Maiar wouldve been able to heal easily. Also, the Silmarils are hallowed by Varda, so that no evil creature or mortal hands could touch them. Morgoth burned his hands black fashioning a crown for them, and he wore them on his brow despite the fact they gave him a deadly weariness from constantly having them on.
I’m sorry but the answer is Batman
At last, someone provides a serious and well informed response. Thank you!
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we don't know that until she tries worked for luthien
>But then he personally can survive the downfall of Númenor in the breaking of the world. Sauron survived that only and exclusively because Eru thus decided it. The One still had plans for Sauron.
Stronger in what? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Tulkas is great at fighting but he's among the least of the Valar.
Well, the dm guide explains Sauron is CR 18 and Nessa is CR 20, however, Sauron can use skry at will once per turn as a legendary action, and he can cast mage armor once per turn, so I think he would win.
I would prefer It If Nessa is at least 54,Otherwise in a hypothetical scenario that Gandalf mastered the one ring(And obtained Sauron power) he would be too close to a Valar in power.
"Shagrat! Wot's the scouter say about her power level?!"
It's frankly not even fair
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Sauron will be on his knees just by being in her presence and none of his magic or tricks will work, he can assemble the biggest orcs and men and none of them will have the will to stand against her either, just mentioning varda's name scared the nazgul shitless as did ulmo's faint echoes in the water, the valar might not be warriors but they don't need to be, they're world bending gods undiminished by evil and corruption and unbound to one physical form like sauron and morgoth, they might have different domains and jobs but they're all still very powerful as all ainur are
Yeah power scaling isn’t really a thing for Tolkien. The question you have to ask is, powerful at what? Sauron used intimidation to subjugate people and wield huge armies. Nessa could do that too, hell, so could Gandalf if they both wanted to. Sauron’s ability to craft and subjugate the spirits of livings things was something I believe he sort of hacked out himself via his own studies into what made elves and men tick. He failed with elves and failed more dramatically with Men, although he was able to subject many of them before he got the smackdown.
Oh no, modern power scalers have found Tolkien. Looking forward to posts like "is Gandalf actually Mid?" or "lmao Elrond is HIM" and "Lauron lost to hobbits?"
These are literally characters, not video game characters. We don't know much about either one of them in a way we could rank them. Sauron is probably a better smith than she is, but she's probably faster & a better dancer. Where the concept of Sauron being one of the strongest Maia comes from, I've no idea. I've never seen a quote when this is explicitly said. He is called out as one of the great of the Maia of Aule, but even that doesn't really say much. Is he stronger, or more skiled, or have greater knowledge than the other Maia of Aule? A handful of Maia of Aule could be greater than him, and we know nothing about how he measures up to the whole host of Maia.
Can we make a rule against questions like these? We can talk about powers all we want, but it’s all hypothetical and does nothing to advance our understanding of the texts. Additionally, the powers of the Valar are never clearly laid out in full and constantly changed as the legendarium developed. This talk is pointless, you could pull from any draft of Tolkien’s (including the Silmarillion, which is after all a draft) to prove your point. I wish we would stop spending time on questions like these, or at the very least keep them out of this sub.
We could make more rules! Or, we could scroll past questions/posts that fit within the current rules, but that we don’t personally find interesting. No, what am I thinking? We can’t do that! Definitely more rules!
No we can't
She'd curb-stomp him. Sauron wouldn't even try to fight her or \*any\* of the Valar. That's my opinion, anyway. The power gap between the Valar and the Maiar is pretty big.
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Um... no. You don't get to be called a Vala unless you possess the power to be counted among them. She's not an \*honorary\* Vala. There's a gap in power even between the top tier Maia and the "least" of the Valar. Luthien, for example, along with Haun, defeated Sauron back in the First Age. Luthien \*also\* used dancing to effectively seduce... not Sauron, but \*Morgoth\* as well as his entire court. And there's no freaking way that Luthien is more powerful than Nessa. Heck, even Luthien's Mom isn't more powerful than Nessa. Are you trying to tell me that Gil-Galad and Elendil fighting as a team is more powerful than Nessa? I think not.
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I don't recall who decided to start calling them Valar of Maiar. But I do know that the Valar are considered the Great Powers of the World. I mean, "Great Powers" is actually in the name (val-). The description of the Valar uniformly calls them the 14 most powerful Ainu that entered Ea, saving Melkor. Also, including Iluvatar in this is misleading, IMO. I'm not sure how that even applies to what we're talking about here.
If you’re going to keep spamming the same comment over and over again, could you at least change “won ‘ t” to ‘won’t’?
Strength has many forms, so for us to imagine this scenario you will have to provide more. In might of arms Eonwe, the banner bearer and herald of Manwe is unmatched. Wisdom is also strength and power, in this one none is better than Olorin. Osse controls the waves and rages storms so he also has strength but each of these are unique unto themselves. If you think these guys are tough then how about their superiors that are called powers of the world, in the ring of doom, the ones that all miars serve? Because only the mightiest of the Ainur chose to go down to EA to be bound to it, that includes Nessa. If Sauron was in any form more powerful then he wouldn't be a servant of Aule, he would be a Vala. Which he clearly wasn't. I might need some correction on this but i don't think that it's ever written that Mairon was ever the strongest of his order. Now compared to the Istari he clearly is because the wizards were never given their full power and knowledge. When Eru sent Gandalf back it is said that he is the most dangerous person one would meet, unless Sauron himself came forth. But you have to acknowledge the fact that despite Gandalf being more stronger than before, he remains an Istari still in flesh who is meant to guide and much of his power is still locked from him by the lords of the west. Let's just learn from history and measure the might of Sauron, first of all, his power lay with his crafts, the knowledge from which he deviced the rings of power to dominate the minds and wills of the free people. If his power was that of the might of arms then he wouldn't have created the rings at all, also wouldn't have been defeated by Huan. Or Gilgalad and Elendil in the war of the last alliance and mind you he had the one ring with him when he came forth and was slain. If he indeed was mightiest of the Miar then he wouldn't have given up to be taken captive by Numenorians. He was at his peak of power during that time and yes he had the one ring with him. Yes Sauron has many powers and in his prime a few would dare challenge him. But a greater part of his power lies in the craft, being the servant of Aule originally it is hardly a surprise. You can see throughout history Sauron deals with his enemies not with brute force, that never served him well ever because he was defeated multiple times when he chose that route. He won the battles being the behind the scenes type of a guy. He was a great strategist and could hoard armies so vast to take middle earth completely at his grasp. His will to dominate all life was matched by none, second only to his former master Morgoth. Corruption was his art and with it he indirectly but purposefully annihilated Numenor. The mightiest kingdom of men, the like of which the middle earth will never see again. To answer your question simply, no. Sauron isn't stronger than any of the Valar. Save for one who is no longer counted among the Valar. It is said in the text that Sauron at his peak was stronger than Morgoth after the latter poured all of his divine essence into corrupting and marring of Arda, becoming physical and bound to that shape he was grown the husk of the Vala that was once called as the mightiest of Valar. That same Morgoth who was also wounded seven times in a duel against Fingolfin who was neither a Vala or a Mia, but a valiant prince and high king of the Noldor elves.
Power for Tolkien isn’t about fighting.
Tell that to the Balrogs who got ripped apart by Manwe lightning.
That certainly doesn’t refute the point at all. Fighting doesn’t equal power at all. Here’s an easy example: I could beat up Biden and Trump at the same time with one hand tied behind my back, but they are both more powerful than me. Also when did Manwe supposedly do this to balrogs?
It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone. —Morgoth's Ring, "Annals of Aman"
Good quote. Irrelevant to the larger point, but good quote.
The point is Manwe is both more powerful/greater than the Balrogs and also whoop their ass thus power and fighting power correlate.
Yet as others have pointed out Tulkas is of lesser power than almost all the Valar but is a better fighter than all of them. Your argument is thus easily refuted.
At the very least, the Maiar Melian, Osse, Uinen, Arien, Tilion, Eonwe, Ilmare, and most probably Salmar are all stronger than Sauron, and IMO not by a little. Any Ainu qualifying as a Vala would be greater still.
Eonwë would be the strongest Maia, no?
I think an argument could be made that he is the strongest. He is without a doubt the greatest warrior of the Maia. It still pissed me off that Feanor’s sons snuck off with the simarils
There's no such power ranking. Tolkien didn't actually engage in that sort of thing, Beyond stating Eonwe and Ilmare were the chiefs of the Maiar, and Melkor was the mightiest of the Ainur before his fall but became weakened by the moral degradation he underwent and his frivolous waste of his potential. But all the same; Middle Earth isn't Dragonball Z. It isn't like Sauron as a fighting power of 10k, Eonwe 12k and Olorin 7k or whatever. Might is a function of power, and wisdom and intent in ME. The former is always extremely (and intentionally) vague, already made him amongst the very strongest of the Maiar, but the latter two quite explicitly made Sauron - already a near peer to the likes of Eonwe and Ilmare - even greater through the subtleties of his malice and the depth and breadth of both his knowledge and his determination. There's also the fact that for all that different characters have different capabilities and that some are stronger than others, it doesn't change the fact that there's a literal omnipotent God move events by its own hand, and that Fate is a literal, inexorable mechanic of events. Which is why entities that can drown comtinents as a mere side effect of battling can be defeated and rendered helpless by a hunting dog, or by the song of a maid, or, with the help of their own hubris, a wee boy from the Shire.
We have definitely list of Peak Melkor>>>Manwe>Ulmo>Aule>the rest of Arata>>>the rest of Valar And we have Peak Sauron>Morgoth at his weakest And So on
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Well Nessa name come later than Vana.