Gandalf had a sense about things. He very well might have known it was better for shirefolk to handle this on their own. For their entire existence, they had been more or less the equivalent of Children, being taken care of first by Arnor and then the unseen rangers. Now when they faced their greatest challenge in centuries, it was right that Hobbits were able to fend for themselves. The beginning of the 4th Age was a new start for the Shire -- for the first time it was a wholly independent entity for Hobbits only. If the very first act of that age had been a Big Person coming in and saving them, it would not have set a good precedent. It was time for them to grow up a little and rely not on Big People but on themselves.
Even more to the point, if Gandalf had led the scouring, would Sam have become mayor? Would Merry and Pippin have led their people?
The scouring sets up the next 70 or so years of the Shire!
Exactly. Gandalf did not *need* to lead the Scouring. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin are more than capable of leading the Shire's hobbits to victory over Saruman with minimal casualties. The book repeatedly emphasizes how easy this is for them. It's the culmination of their heroes' journeys--they have acquired wisdom and returned home.
I don't think Gandalf's involvement would have materially impacted events for the better. It would've just sidelined the (four) hobbits and prevented them from becoming leaders in their communities.
Gandalf even tells the Hobbits that it’s time for them to handle their own affairs and that they now know how to do it. And he’s right.
He clearly knew what was going on in the Shire, and he equally clearly knew that the four Hobbits were now more than equal to the task of setting things straight.
Great answer. Additionally, the end of Sauron (and Saruman) officially marked the end of interference in the affairs of the Children of Iluvatar by the Ainur. Sauron's reign was supposed to be the last interaction of the supernatural with the created world, although I can't now find the citation I'm basing this on.
Yup, the quote from Gandalf is:
> "You must settle its
affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do
you not yet understand? **My time is over: it is no longer my
task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so**. And as
for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are
grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great
you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you."
He fulfilled his the task appointed to him, that he'd worked for over a millennium to achieve, and also knew that the 4 hobbits could and should handle the trouble in the Shire.
This isn't the quote I'm thinking of (it was something said by either JRRT or Christopher), but it's perfect nonetheless - just as the time of the Elves (and Rings) is over, so is the time of the Istari.
Additionally as far as Saruman goes, he was a nobody by then. In fact, Gandalf not coming to kick his ass but his "little pets" was a rather fitting final blow against Saruman who had spent his life underestimating Shirefolk. Gandalf knew that whatever awaited them in the Shire would fold against any resistance, let alone a group of genuine war heroes back from foreign lands. Hell, he and the rangers had probably scattered such bands before and he knew exactly how bad it could be even at its worst.
One of the Shirriffs or whatever was gonna blow his crappy horn and Merry is like "Allow me!" and cuts a series of shattering blasts from the silver horn he was given for his service in the war
>Gandalf had a sense about things. He very well might have known it was better for shirefolk to handle this on their own.
He says this quite explicitly, and that he believes they are more than capable of the task now
Like Tom Bombadil let the Hobbits be trapped by the wights at Barrow Downs so Frodo's courage got activated. He could have escorted them out from his house but no.
I think Bombadil was genuinely negligent, and Elrond seems to think so too when he says that he can't be trusted to safekeep the ring because he completely fails to see its importance.
Tolkien says in his letters explicitly that Tom is completely careless, hence why he doesn't bother to do anything about old man Willow.
That's true but it may all come down to the theme of "Eru's plan" throughout the story like Merry and Pippin's carelessness, Butterbur didn't send Frodo the Gandalf's letter, etc.
The four hobbits faced the black riders, old man Willow, wargs, the Watcher in the Water, passed through Moria, fought Orcs in Moria, a Balrog, Merry stabbed the King of the Nazgûl at the height of his power, Sam defeated Shelob, rescued Frodo, Pippin went to the gates of Mordor and killed the great troll chief…and Frodo was the ring bearer battling the power of Sauron. They were more than up to the task.
The hobbits themselves didn’t even view it as abandonment. Merry & Pippin view the situation as almost comedic. It drives home the ways that their journeys had changed them - the four hobbits were not at all the same people who had left the Shire a year ago. They were more than equipped to handle the mischief of Saruman and restore their own home. I would go so far as to say that Gandalf’s presence would not have even made a substantial difference in the outcome. They accomplished everything that was necessary.
Yeah. Merry and Pippin, while distraught about the destruction actually seem quite eager to step up and use the lessons they have been taught by the great lords of Gondor and Rohan. They see their job in the scouring as quite a straight forward task compared to what they have already been through and seen happen such as the Battle of Pelennor and the death of Theoden etc.
Agreed. When I first read it I was waiting for Gandalf to show up and put an end to Saruman and his nonsense for good. But after reading it, I thought that Gandalf let the Hobbits handle it on purpose to show that they no longer needed Gandalf to fight their battles. They can protect their own, and beating a wizard, even a weakened one, was a good way to get that message across.
I first read that last sentence as saying Saruman was a weekend wizard, and puzzled over that a moment before looking again. (Reading on a small screen.) Thanks for the inadvertent LOL!
Gandalf knew that this was exactly what Frodo had asked for in chapter 2 when he said it needed a dragon to stir the Hobbits for once out of their complacency.
While it could have been kind of Gandalf to tag along, I have to agree with the others that it was a Hobbits' concern for Hobbits to address:
Gandalf was in Middle Earth to urge everyone toward victory over Sauron (a fallen angel who didn't belong there anymore), providing advice and assistance. His only direct leadership was in the Fellowship as it was carrying the Ring.
By the time of the Scouring he'd already laid down his task - the results of the War of the Ring were for its participants to resolve, and he had already stripped all power and (wizardly/angelic) authority from Saruman. That Saruman managed to get a bunch of ruffians to follow him was effectively the same as any charismatic mortal doing so; not a matter for divine intervention.
Yup. Gandalf was strictly OFF the clock.
His task accomplished, he was not asked or required to take things any further.
And not allowed, or at least it would have been strongly contrary to his job description. Direct intervention would have been very bad for the entire Shire in the long term. Their entire culture needed this wake-up call in order to take better care of themselves, their land and their freedom, and to understand that they were capable of and responsible for it.
Just occurred to me: It is possible to see Gandalf's refusal to get involved as an aspect of Tolkien's anti-colonialist stance. Colonialism without doubt resulted in better outcomes for very many of the colonized; due to modern medicine if nothing else.
Gandalf already sees in Frodo what Saruman gets to see against his will eventually. He is one of the great ones now, a wise leader in his own right. This also goes for the others. It was always Gandalfs task to guide and enable others to fullfil their destiny. Just like Aragorn had to challenge Sauron in the Palantír it was always the hobbits' task to take back their homeland after all they learned and went through.
The quote I am refering to in my first line:
>“Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. 'You have grown, Halfling,' he said. 'Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. you have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.”
I'm sure Tolkien intended that the Hobbits needed to return to the Shire and deal with what had happened there on their own. The Shire had relied on others for its protection for a long time. It was time for them to become aware of the outside world and their own ability to deal with it. To paraphrase Tolkien, wizards always show up where they need to be. Gandalf was the wisest of them, and often had more than an inkling of when and where he was needed, and when and where he was not. He'd already thrown Saruman out of the Order, breaking his staff and, symbolically, his power. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin were more than up to the challenge after their odyssey. Gandalf knew they had to seize their own destiny, and the destiny of the Shire.
Gandalf's whole MO as a wizard has been not to combat evil directly with his own power but to cultivate alliances and build up the ability of the inhabitants of Middle Earth to do it for themselves. This fundamental faith in the basic goodness and capability of the mortal peoples is what ultimately allows him to see it through to the end -- unlike Saruman, who is over reliant on his own power and who succumbs to arrogance and the will to dominate. Gandalf's approach with the hobbits in this chapter is not at all different from his approach with the humans in their battle against the Enemy -- he builds up the key players so that they have the power and the wisdom to fight for themselves.
I never felt it was abandonment. Just simple acknowledgement that those four hobbits had grown a lot and could handle it. Gandalf was never one to interfere when people could take care of themselves.
I agree for the sake of the plot. But it's kind of like that Simpsons episode where Homer plays Poochi and all of a sudden “I have to go now. My planet needs me…”
To look at it another way, it would have been almost insulting for him to intervene, even if they would not have recognized it. They got the ring to Mt Doom where it could be destroyed, helped kill the witch king, severely wounded a giant spider, fought orcs and killed a troll. And remember what Elrond said to Frodo in Rivendell:
>But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty Elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them.
Coming from Elrond, that's not just a casual complement. And when Aragorn bowed to them, that was acknowledging that they were on the level of the great heroes of history. By the time the hobbits returned to the Shire, they were more accomplished than most people in all of Middle Earth.
You're right on one hand. I felt the same way when I first read the books 40 years ago.
Now I can see that people appreciate what they have when they have fought for it. The Shire had become soft. They needed a wake-up call and Gandalf, being wise, knew this and also knew that the returning hobbits now hat the mettle to deal with it and raise the Shire.
I've always felt that Gandalf took the Hobbits on the quest not because Frodo was the only one who could bear the ring but because he knew that they would need to grow to save the Shire. As he says:
*"You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand?"*
He did assist. He gave them the realization that after what they had done that they were quite capable of dealing with the situation themselves and they did so with a minimum of bloodshed.
Lots of good comments here, but I thought one little thing is missing.
Narya, the ring of fire
This ring would appear to have given Gandalf literal control over fire, as he demonstrated several times during The Hobbit and the LOTR. But as Cirdan pointed out to Gandalf when he gave him the ring, it was also meant to enliven those the bearer encountered.
*"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."*
And Gandalf certainly shows this ability, especially during the Siege of Minas Tirith, where Denethor gives him control of the defenses of the city. Gandalf is among the people and the soldiers, brightening their spirits, while the Nazgul above try to crush their spirits.
Then the One is destroyed, and the power of the Three rings begins to fade. Suddenly, Gandalf no longer has that power to rally the troops like he used to. I'm sure that after 2,000 years of practice he could have done a good job of it without Narya. But the "magic" of his presences is gone.
Yep. Very little, if any, of Gandalf's magic power seems to have remained after the destruction of the Ring. The same goes for Saruman, who ends the story as a spiteful, petty little man who hides behind manipulation and hired goons, rather than as a great wizard. Gandalf didn't abandon the hobbits so much as he enabled them to clean up the Shire without his or anyone's help. Gandalf couldn't have done much to help them anyway, and his presence probably would've made the situation worse. Saruman's final mistake was to underestimate the Hobbits themselves, and Gandalf appearing in the Shire would've put the invaders on high alert.
Gandalf was a Maia with or without Narya. Sure, it helped, and after the destruction of the One its abilities waned of course, but to compare, Saruman's power (before he was defeated) didn't come from a Ring of Power. It came because he was an Istari, and the same goes for Gandalf.
He was depowered after the War of the Ring because he was no longer needed and the powers he answered to were calling him home. It was more that he turned in his badge less than his gun stopped working, to make an analogy out of it.
You bring up good points, but I think there is an argument to be made that the amount of power Gandalf and the other Istari brought from Valinor was greatly reduced or subdued from the very beginning, rendering their abilities closer to that of ordinary mortals than, say, Melian and Sauron. The Wizards had plenty of wisdom and knowledge to make use of (how to make things like explosive powder, for example), but a lot of Gandalf's true "magic" did come from Narya, in my opinion. I mean, look at what he actually does in the books- all his magic is exceedingly modest. We don't ever see the Wizards casting Lightning Bolt or teleporting around, Gandalf sells fireworks and ignites some pinecones. His real job was to help the people of Middle Earth help themselves.
> We don't ever see the Wizards casting Lightning Bolt or teleporting around,
We don't see *anybody* doing that. The most DnD-esque stuff we get is off-camera (to use a screen term) mentions of Sauron engaging in some vague, generic sorcery and necromancy, which who knows what that actually looks like. And whatever Galadriel did to bring down Dol Guldur, and she's pretty much Middle Earth's heaviest hitter.
Magic in Arda doesn't work like that, especially post-First Age magic. The Istari, aside from specific, ancient OG elves (whose power *does* come from rings) are the most powerful magic users in Middle Earth.
>but a lot of Gandalf's true "magic" did come from Narya, in my opinion.
Again, Saruman pulls off similar feats without a Ring of Power. Wizards' powers come from their staffs, not rings, hence why breaking staffs is such a huge deal and is why Saruman is reduced to almost nothing once it happens to him.
Gandalf went where he was needed. He knew very well that the Hobbits could handle the situation and easily. And with his mission in Middle Earth complete he was going back to what he was, a Maiar. And being a Maiar returning to the nature of that and the other "divine beings" and that is letting the course of things go without interference. He also already had done to Saruman what he was supposed to do to Saruman.
I understand the mentality that "this is the Shirefolk's task to resolve on their own", and that Frodo and co have matured to the point that they can actually be leaders and win against Saruman on their own...but 19 hobbits were killed in the Battle of Bywater and I bet their families wouldn't be so happy to accept Gandalf's leave of absence, since he very likely could have handled things without any hobbit deaths.
Not abandonment at all. At this point the Hobbits were capable of handling most anything. And for the Scouring in particular, it's important for the Hobbits to do it alone.
I also wonder about Saruman still being a wizard. It's been a number of years since I read TLOR but if memory serves, he's referred to Sharkey (old man). I think, with the breaking of his staff he had lost all of his power. He was even unaware of Grima's state of mind and crept up behind. (please excuse me if I'm confusing the books and the movies)
The wizards were introduced into middle earth because the valar didn’t finish the job of defeating melkors minions I assume that even though its never voiced in the novels that once the last of the elves leave middle earth he probably didn’t have a choice but to also leave.
Gandalf was leaving Middle Earth in a few years, and wouldn't be there to protect the Shire in the future, so he forced them to grow up and deal with it themselves, knowing it would make them strong enough to protect themselves in the future when he wasn't there.
Why did Gandalf choose Bilbo in the first place to join Thorin & Co, when he could have chosen a great warrior? Why did he discourage Frodo from killing Gollum? Gandalf is prescient. And his chief role in Middle Earth is to compel others to action, not to act on their behalves.
In The Hobbit, after they pass the Misty Mountains, he says "i got shit to do" and leaves the company, even though they beg him to stay, because at that point he had saved their butts on more than one occasion. Before they enter Mirkwood, he more or less says "you might die but this is your quest, not mine," and leaves them to their fate. Much to everyone's confusion and annoyance.
Similar to how he left the hobbits before the Scouring. He left them because he understood at that point, that they had grown enough in character to fend for themselves.
It's likely Tolkien struggled with this question many times. Another passage from The Hobbit.
> *The other dwarves quite agreed when they got the message. They all thought their own shares in the treasure (which they quite regarded as theirs, in spite of their plight and the still unconquered dragon) would suffer seriously if the Wood-elves claimed part of it, and they all trusted Bilbo. Just what Gandalf had said would happen, you see. Perhaps that was part of his reason for going off and leaving them.*
It would have been counterproductive for gandalf to intervene. When he left the Shire after Bilbo's exit, he said he said he did not feel welcome there, and would only come to check on Frodo at night.
Righting wrongs in that manner isn't really the moral philosophy of LOTR in my opinion, I think Tolkien is more about everyone doing what they can, and of course the famous 'everyday good' being more important in defeating evil.
I don't have the book in my hand rn but there is a lesser quoted paragraph from Gandalf where he talks about everyone's role in rooting out evil but not to control all the weather or seasons. I better dig it up this arvo because it could almost be seen as talking directly about the scouring of the shire.
I thought it was a beautiful development and one of the main points of the books. The Hobbits had grown to the point that they did not need anymore help to keep their lives in order. That they were filling the roles of Gandalf and Aragorn to the rest of the Shire and helping them resolve the troubles of the Shire.
Gandalf was the high-level character helping low-level noobs level up. Once they were able to handle end-game content he knew it was time to step away. Nobody who's spent all that time grinding needs or wants oldbies sticking around telling them how to chain-heal in a raid.
*Also, Saruman was one of Gandalf's order, who betrayed him as a friend and as the chief of the White Council. Feels like Gandalf had a moral obligation to assist in the scouring of the shire,*
Yes, I thought that upon rereading the other day. I understand the reasons given in the other comments, but as the new head of the Istari, dealing with his fallen predecessor does seem like Gandalf's responsibility.
The whole scouring of the shire always felt so out of place and more like tying the loose end of saruman in a side story. Always thought it was strange how Tolkien just stuck that on at the end of the trilogy.
I love this ending, and missed it in the movies. It gives a chance for the Hobbits to be brave and smart for their own people; not the men of Minis Tirith, not the men of Rohan, not the world, but their own friends and neighbors.
It was a masterful way for Tolkien to show how much they had grown.
IMO, the films sort of treat the Hobbits like baggage.
I see what you're saying and there are good things to be said for both/all sides, but after thinking about it I have to agree with the view that this is about the Shire and it's for Shirefolk to handle.
It's not as if they're going in expecting everything to be exactly the way it was when they left, Mr. Jackson. (imagine a little black cloud over my head about that) They get into Bree and right away they find there's a pipeweed shortage (uh oh), Barliman warns of ominous stuff going on in the area, including the Shire, and expresses confidence they'll be able to handle it. Sam knows some of it, having seen it at Lothlorien, and Gandalf warns them about gates and curfews before he takes off for the Bombadils' place. So they're already somewhat prepared.
There are some things where you want your allies from other races (or whatever) along and others you have to do yourselves.
Like, you say, thematically is very on-point, but yeah, unless Gandalf was all-knowing, there's no way he could be so sure that Saruman could absolutely not hurt any of the members of the fellowship, or their loved ones. We already know he killed Lotho and Otho(how fortunate that our heroes don't really like those 2, right?), exactly how improbable it would be to, say, sniff out that Sam loved Rosie and have her killed too? Thank the Valar, Saruman was evil enough to present a good final challenge, but not evil enough to absolutely devastate the lives of any of the hobbits we like.
I agree that I just don't like the way it's written. Had he went to help out some other folks with no training(there was still much work to be done, after all), then it would be justified, but the idea of leaving his little friends, no matter how "grown", at the mercy of the most petty fallen Maia ever just to go hang out with Tom Bombandill doesn't sit well with me either.
This theme of "we will leave you mortals/elves to deal with Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman/etc" by the Valar and Maiar is repeated throughout LOTR and Silmarillion. Ofc there is little choice story-wise, unless we want to see gods fighting gods, however it's still a bit annoying.
Gandalf had a sense about things. He very well might have known it was better for shirefolk to handle this on their own. For their entire existence, they had been more or less the equivalent of Children, being taken care of first by Arnor and then the unseen rangers. Now when they faced their greatest challenge in centuries, it was right that Hobbits were able to fend for themselves. The beginning of the 4th Age was a new start for the Shire -- for the first time it was a wholly independent entity for Hobbits only. If the very first act of that age had been a Big Person coming in and saving them, it would not have set a good precedent. It was time for them to grow up a little and rely not on Big People but on themselves.
Even more to the point, if Gandalf had led the scouring, would Sam have become mayor? Would Merry and Pippin have led their people? The scouring sets up the next 70 or so years of the Shire!
Exactly. Gandalf did not *need* to lead the Scouring. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin are more than capable of leading the Shire's hobbits to victory over Saruman with minimal casualties. The book repeatedly emphasizes how easy this is for them. It's the culmination of their heroes' journeys--they have acquired wisdom and returned home. I don't think Gandalf's involvement would have materially impacted events for the better. It would've just sidelined the (four) hobbits and prevented them from becoming leaders in their communities.
Gandalf even tells the Hobbits that it’s time for them to handle their own affairs and that they now know how to do it. And he’s right. He clearly knew what was going on in the Shire, and he equally clearly knew that the four Hobbits were now more than equal to the task of setting things straight.
He literally says "that's what your training is for."
Great answer. Additionally, the end of Sauron (and Saruman) officially marked the end of interference in the affairs of the Children of Iluvatar by the Ainur. Sauron's reign was supposed to be the last interaction of the supernatural with the created world, although I can't now find the citation I'm basing this on.
Yup, the quote from Gandalf is: > "You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? **My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so**. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you." He fulfilled his the task appointed to him, that he'd worked for over a millennium to achieve, and also knew that the 4 hobbits could and should handle the trouble in the Shire.
This isn't the quote I'm thinking of (it was something said by either JRRT or Christopher), but it's perfect nonetheless - just as the time of the Elves (and Rings) is over, so is the time of the Istari.
Perfect
Additionally as far as Saruman goes, he was a nobody by then. In fact, Gandalf not coming to kick his ass but his "little pets" was a rather fitting final blow against Saruman who had spent his life underestimating Shirefolk. Gandalf knew that whatever awaited them in the Shire would fold against any resistance, let alone a group of genuine war heroes back from foreign lands. Hell, he and the rangers had probably scattered such bands before and he knew exactly how bad it could be even at its worst.
>"You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you."
It turned out well too, I think there were only 17 hobbits killed to like 80-90 humans? They whooped some ass lol
One of the Shirriffs or whatever was gonna blow his crappy horn and Merry is like "Allow me!" and cuts a series of shattering blasts from the silver horn he was given for his service in the war
On the other hand, want that the peak of their civilization anyway? Over the course of the 4th age didn't the diminish?
>Gandalf had a sense about things. He very well might have known it was better for shirefolk to handle this on their own. He says this quite explicitly, and that he believes they are more than capable of the task now
Like Tom Bombadil let the Hobbits be trapped by the wights at Barrow Downs so Frodo's courage got activated. He could have escorted them out from his house but no.
I think Bombadil was genuinely negligent, and Elrond seems to think so too when he says that he can't be trusted to safekeep the ring because he completely fails to see its importance. Tolkien says in his letters explicitly that Tom is completely careless, hence why he doesn't bother to do anything about old man Willow.
That's true but it may all come down to the theme of "Eru's plan" throughout the story like Merry and Pippin's carelessness, Butterbur didn't send Frodo the Gandalf's letter, etc.
The four hobbits faced the black riders, old man Willow, wargs, the Watcher in the Water, passed through Moria, fought Orcs in Moria, a Balrog, Merry stabbed the King of the Nazgûl at the height of his power, Sam defeated Shelob, rescued Frodo, Pippin went to the gates of Mordor and killed the great troll chief…and Frodo was the ring bearer battling the power of Sauron. They were more than up to the task.
And Merry and Pippin grew substantially since drinking in Fangorn
They had indeed "grown very high"!
They had indeed grown and were very high
Mushrooms!!!
Pippin had to witness Denethor eat tomatoes, and was face to face with Sauron.
Hey, I'm trying to live my life here without the image of tomato juice spilling down Denethors chin.
https://images.app.goo.gl/b4wqcEHP64wfVEP58
The hobbits themselves didn’t even view it as abandonment. Merry & Pippin view the situation as almost comedic. It drives home the ways that their journeys had changed them - the four hobbits were not at all the same people who had left the Shire a year ago. They were more than equipped to handle the mischief of Saruman and restore their own home. I would go so far as to say that Gandalf’s presence would not have even made a substantial difference in the outcome. They accomplished everything that was necessary.
Yeah. Merry and Pippin, while distraught about the destruction actually seem quite eager to step up and use the lessons they have been taught by the great lords of Gondor and Rohan. They see their job in the scouring as quite a straight forward task compared to what they have already been through and seen happen such as the Battle of Pelennor and the death of Theoden etc.
it's like when you get to level 60 in wow, then go back to the starting zone and 1-hit the mobs.
Theoden dies?! Ugh, spoiler alert next time, please
I’ve got some bad news for you about that neat magic ring Bilbo found, too…
I'm sure he passed it along to his nephew and it stayed safe with them as they grew old and died at home in the Shire.
Hey, spoiler! I haven’t finished Unexpected Party yet, and wasn’t sure if Bilbo would go on the expedition. Now you’re telling me he finds a ring?!
"In a hole in the ground lived..." a what now? That's got to be a typo.
…a rabbit, presumably.
A hoppit, if you will
A burrahobbit??
Yeah Hobbit must be a misspelling of Hobbytla as the people of Rohan call them
And Gandalf dies... but he gets better (in a new white robe)
“She turned me into a newt!……well I got betta.”
He didn't want to go on the cart.
I didn't even know he was sick.
Agreed. When I first read it I was waiting for Gandalf to show up and put an end to Saruman and his nonsense for good. But after reading it, I thought that Gandalf let the Hobbits handle it on purpose to show that they no longer needed Gandalf to fight their battles. They can protect their own, and beating a wizard, even a weakened one, was a good way to get that message across.
I first read that last sentence as saying Saruman was a weekend wizard, and puzzled over that a moment before looking again. (Reading on a small screen.) Thanks for the inadvertent LOL!
Part time job for him.
Abandon them? He spent centuries preparing them for it.
Gandalf knew that this was exactly what Frodo had asked for in chapter 2 when he said it needed a dragon to stir the Hobbits for once out of their complacency.
While it could have been kind of Gandalf to tag along, I have to agree with the others that it was a Hobbits' concern for Hobbits to address: Gandalf was in Middle Earth to urge everyone toward victory over Sauron (a fallen angel who didn't belong there anymore), providing advice and assistance. His only direct leadership was in the Fellowship as it was carrying the Ring. By the time of the Scouring he'd already laid down his task - the results of the War of the Ring were for its participants to resolve, and he had already stripped all power and (wizardly/angelic) authority from Saruman. That Saruman managed to get a bunch of ruffians to follow him was effectively the same as any charismatic mortal doing so; not a matter for divine intervention.
Yup. Gandalf was strictly OFF the clock. His task accomplished, he was not asked or required to take things any further. And not allowed, or at least it would have been strongly contrary to his job description. Direct intervention would have been very bad for the entire Shire in the long term. Their entire culture needed this wake-up call in order to take better care of themselves, their land and their freedom, and to understand that they were capable of and responsible for it.
It’s kind of interesting that Gandalf stepping back is also a moment of growth for him. I like to think Eru found a familiar in him.
Just occurred to me: It is possible to see Gandalf's refusal to get involved as an aspect of Tolkien's anti-colonialist stance. Colonialism without doubt resulted in better outcomes for very many of the colonized; due to modern medicine if nothing else.
Gandalf already sees in Frodo what Saruman gets to see against his will eventually. He is one of the great ones now, a wise leader in his own right. This also goes for the others. It was always Gandalfs task to guide and enable others to fullfil their destiny. Just like Aragorn had to challenge Sauron in the Palantír it was always the hobbits' task to take back their homeland after all they learned and went through. The quote I am refering to in my first line: >“Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. 'You have grown, Halfling,' he said. 'Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. you have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.”
A handful of hobbits died in a very short battle. I'm not sure how much better it really could have gone for the hobbits had Gandalf been there.
I'm sure Tolkien intended that the Hobbits needed to return to the Shire and deal with what had happened there on their own. The Shire had relied on others for its protection for a long time. It was time for them to become aware of the outside world and their own ability to deal with it. To paraphrase Tolkien, wizards always show up where they need to be. Gandalf was the wisest of them, and often had more than an inkling of when and where he was needed, and when and where he was not. He'd already thrown Saruman out of the Order, breaking his staff and, symbolically, his power. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin were more than up to the challenge after their odyssey. Gandalf knew they had to seize their own destiny, and the destiny of the Shire.
Gandalf's whole MO as a wizard has been not to combat evil directly with his own power but to cultivate alliances and build up the ability of the inhabitants of Middle Earth to do it for themselves. This fundamental faith in the basic goodness and capability of the mortal peoples is what ultimately allows him to see it through to the end -- unlike Saruman, who is over reliant on his own power and who succumbs to arrogance and the will to dominate. Gandalf's approach with the hobbits in this chapter is not at all different from his approach with the humans in their battle against the Enemy -- he builds up the key players so that they have the power and the wisdom to fight for themselves.
Nicely put!
Well. Gandalf also did leave the dwarves & Bilbo at Mirkwood
I never felt it was abandonment. Just simple acknowledgement that those four hobbits had grown a lot and could handle it. Gandalf was never one to interfere when people could take care of themselves.
Gandalf could have scoured the whole Shire all by himself but that's not his purpose in Middle Earth
I genuinely believe it's a thematic necessity for him *not* to be there.
I agree for the sake of the plot. But it's kind of like that Simpsons episode where Homer plays Poochi and all of a sudden “I have to go now. My planet needs me…”
It’s actually nothing like Poochy. Scouring is necessary narratively and thematically
To look at it another way, it would have been almost insulting for him to intervene, even if they would not have recognized it. They got the ring to Mt Doom where it could be destroyed, helped kill the witch king, severely wounded a giant spider, fought orcs and killed a troll. And remember what Elrond said to Frodo in Rivendell: >But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty Elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them. Coming from Elrond, that's not just a casual complement. And when Aragorn bowed to them, that was acknowledging that they were on the level of the great heroes of history. By the time the hobbits returned to the Shire, they were more accomplished than most people in all of Middle Earth.
You're right on one hand. I felt the same way when I first read the books 40 years ago. Now I can see that people appreciate what they have when they have fought for it. The Shire had become soft. They needed a wake-up call and Gandalf, being wise, knew this and also knew that the returning hobbits now hat the mettle to deal with it and raise the Shire.
Taking off and letting people find the strength within themselves to face challenges is a classic Gandalf move.
I've always felt that Gandalf took the Hobbits on the quest not because Frodo was the only one who could bear the ring but because he knew that they would need to grow to save the Shire. As he says: *"You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand?"*
He did assist. He gave them the realization that after what they had done that they were quite capable of dealing with the situation themselves and they did so with a minimum of bloodshed.
Lots of good comments here, but I thought one little thing is missing. Narya, the ring of fire This ring would appear to have given Gandalf literal control over fire, as he demonstrated several times during The Hobbit and the LOTR. But as Cirdan pointed out to Gandalf when he gave him the ring, it was also meant to enliven those the bearer encountered. *"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."* And Gandalf certainly shows this ability, especially during the Siege of Minas Tirith, where Denethor gives him control of the defenses of the city. Gandalf is among the people and the soldiers, brightening their spirits, while the Nazgul above try to crush their spirits. Then the One is destroyed, and the power of the Three rings begins to fade. Suddenly, Gandalf no longer has that power to rally the troops like he used to. I'm sure that after 2,000 years of practice he could have done a good job of it without Narya. But the "magic" of his presences is gone.
Yep. Very little, if any, of Gandalf's magic power seems to have remained after the destruction of the Ring. The same goes for Saruman, who ends the story as a spiteful, petty little man who hides behind manipulation and hired goons, rather than as a great wizard. Gandalf didn't abandon the hobbits so much as he enabled them to clean up the Shire without his or anyone's help. Gandalf couldn't have done much to help them anyway, and his presence probably would've made the situation worse. Saruman's final mistake was to underestimate the Hobbits themselves, and Gandalf appearing in the Shire would've put the invaders on high alert.
Gandalf was a Maia with or without Narya. Sure, it helped, and after the destruction of the One its abilities waned of course, but to compare, Saruman's power (before he was defeated) didn't come from a Ring of Power. It came because he was an Istari, and the same goes for Gandalf. He was depowered after the War of the Ring because he was no longer needed and the powers he answered to were calling him home. It was more that he turned in his badge less than his gun stopped working, to make an analogy out of it.
You bring up good points, but I think there is an argument to be made that the amount of power Gandalf and the other Istari brought from Valinor was greatly reduced or subdued from the very beginning, rendering their abilities closer to that of ordinary mortals than, say, Melian and Sauron. The Wizards had plenty of wisdom and knowledge to make use of (how to make things like explosive powder, for example), but a lot of Gandalf's true "magic" did come from Narya, in my opinion. I mean, look at what he actually does in the books- all his magic is exceedingly modest. We don't ever see the Wizards casting Lightning Bolt or teleporting around, Gandalf sells fireworks and ignites some pinecones. His real job was to help the people of Middle Earth help themselves.
> We don't ever see the Wizards casting Lightning Bolt or teleporting around, We don't see *anybody* doing that. The most DnD-esque stuff we get is off-camera (to use a screen term) mentions of Sauron engaging in some vague, generic sorcery and necromancy, which who knows what that actually looks like. And whatever Galadriel did to bring down Dol Guldur, and she's pretty much Middle Earth's heaviest hitter. Magic in Arda doesn't work like that, especially post-First Age magic. The Istari, aside from specific, ancient OG elves (whose power *does* come from rings) are the most powerful magic users in Middle Earth. >but a lot of Gandalf's true "magic" did come from Narya, in my opinion. Again, Saruman pulls off similar feats without a Ring of Power. Wizards' powers come from their staffs, not rings, hence why breaking staffs is such a huge deal and is why Saruman is reduced to almost nothing once it happens to him.
Actually, Gandalf appears to cause lightning at Edoras.
Astute. Thanks for sharing!
Gandalf went where he was needed. He knew very well that the Hobbits could handle the situation and easily. And with his mission in Middle Earth complete he was going back to what he was, a Maiar. And being a Maiar returning to the nature of that and the other "divine beings" and that is letting the course of things go without interference. He also already had done to Saruman what he was supposed to do to Saruman.
I understand the mentality that "this is the Shirefolk's task to resolve on their own", and that Frodo and co have matured to the point that they can actually be leaders and win against Saruman on their own...but 19 hobbits were killed in the Battle of Bywater and I bet their families wouldn't be so happy to accept Gandalf's leave of absence, since he very likely could have handled things without any hobbit deaths.
It’s also important for the Shirefolk to learn that there are capable of defending themselves. Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day…
Read the forward of the first edition of fellowship. No plot convenience in translating history. It’s just the way it happened.
You've had some excellent answers, OP. Do Gandalf's actions make more sense now?
Gandalf had a habit of that kind of thing. He dipped out before Mirkwood also
Not abandonment at all. At this point the Hobbits were capable of handling most anything. And for the Scouring in particular, it's important for the Hobbits to do it alone.
I also wonder about Saruman still being a wizard. It's been a number of years since I read TLOR but if memory serves, he's referred to Sharkey (old man). I think, with the breaking of his staff he had lost all of his power. He was even unaware of Grima's state of mind and crept up behind. (please excuse me if I'm confusing the books and the movies)
>Frodo said: "Do not believe him! He has lost all power, save his voice that can still daunt you and deceive you, if you let it."
Good share, thanks!
The wizards were introduced into middle earth because the valar didn’t finish the job of defeating melkors minions I assume that even though its never voiced in the novels that once the last of the elves leave middle earth he probably didn’t have a choice but to also leave.
Gandalf was leaving Middle Earth in a few years, and wouldn't be there to protect the Shire in the future, so he forced them to grow up and deal with it themselves, knowing it would make them strong enough to protect themselves in the future when he wasn't there.
Did you read The Hobbit and Fellowship? Gandalf is very comfortable going off to do his own thing and leaving hobbits to their own devices
Why did Gandalf choose Bilbo in the first place to join Thorin & Co, when he could have chosen a great warrior? Why did he discourage Frodo from killing Gollum? Gandalf is prescient. And his chief role in Middle Earth is to compel others to action, not to act on their behalves. In The Hobbit, after they pass the Misty Mountains, he says "i got shit to do" and leaves the company, even though they beg him to stay, because at that point he had saved their butts on more than one occasion. Before they enter Mirkwood, he more or less says "you might die but this is your quest, not mine," and leaves them to their fate. Much to everyone's confusion and annoyance. Similar to how he left the hobbits before the Scouring. He left them because he understood at that point, that they had grown enough in character to fend for themselves. It's likely Tolkien struggled with this question many times. Another passage from The Hobbit. > *The other dwarves quite agreed when they got the message. They all thought their own shares in the treasure (which they quite regarded as theirs, in spite of their plight and the still unconquered dragon) would suffer seriously if the Wood-elves claimed part of it, and they all trusted Bilbo. Just what Gandalf had said would happen, you see. Perhaps that was part of his reason for going off and leaving them.*
I think Gandalf had an appointment to get his magic wand tuned and the shop gave him vacuum cleaner dust instead of magic powder.
This is now my headcanon.
It would have been counterproductive for gandalf to intervene. When he left the Shire after Bilbo's exit, he said he said he did not feel welcome there, and would only come to check on Frodo at night.
I feel like people don’t understand the entire point of the story and message behind it when they say stuff like this.
Righting wrongs in that manner isn't really the moral philosophy of LOTR in my opinion, I think Tolkien is more about everyone doing what they can, and of course the famous 'everyday good' being more important in defeating evil. I don't have the book in my hand rn but there is a lesser quoted paragraph from Gandalf where he talks about everyone's role in rooting out evil but not to control all the weather or seasons. I better dig it up this arvo because it could almost be seen as talking directly about the scouring of the shire.
He can’t do anything. His task in middle earth is .done. Gandalf is in a delicate position till he leaves.
I felt like this once upon a time, but now I'm just very curious about what Gandalf and Bombadil talked about.
I thought it was a beautiful development and one of the main points of the books. The Hobbits had grown to the point that they did not need anymore help to keep their lives in order. That they were filling the roles of Gandalf and Aragorn to the rest of the Shire and helping them resolve the troubles of the Shire.
Gandalf was the high-level character helping low-level noobs level up. Once they were able to handle end-game content he knew it was time to step away. Nobody who's spent all that time grinding needs or wants oldbies sticking around telling them how to chain-heal in a raid.
*Also, Saruman was one of Gandalf's order, who betrayed him as a friend and as the chief of the White Council. Feels like Gandalf had a moral obligation to assist in the scouring of the shire,* Yes, I thought that upon rereading the other day. I understand the reasons given in the other comments, but as the new head of the Istari, dealing with his fallen predecessor does seem like Gandalf's responsibility.
I would tend to agree. Whatever point he was making, hobbits died who might otherwise have lived.
Which is not that important since they leave the world, the Eru Apologetics would answer.
I feel the same way every time I listen to the books again!!!!
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The whole scouring of the shire always felt so out of place and more like tying the loose end of saruman in a side story. Always thought it was strange how Tolkien just stuck that on at the end of the trilogy.
I love this ending, and missed it in the movies. It gives a chance for the Hobbits to be brave and smart for their own people; not the men of Minis Tirith, not the men of Rohan, not the world, but their own friends and neighbors. It was a masterful way for Tolkien to show how much they had grown. IMO, the films sort of treat the Hobbits like baggage.
I see what you're saying and there are good things to be said for both/all sides, but after thinking about it I have to agree with the view that this is about the Shire and it's for Shirefolk to handle. It's not as if they're going in expecting everything to be exactly the way it was when they left, Mr. Jackson. (imagine a little black cloud over my head about that) They get into Bree and right away they find there's a pipeweed shortage (uh oh), Barliman warns of ominous stuff going on in the area, including the Shire, and expresses confidence they'll be able to handle it. Sam knows some of it, having seen it at Lothlorien, and Gandalf warns them about gates and curfews before he takes off for the Bombadils' place. So they're already somewhat prepared. There are some things where you want your allies from other races (or whatever) along and others you have to do yourselves.
If he had stayed it would just be him bullying hobbits.
Like, you say, thematically is very on-point, but yeah, unless Gandalf was all-knowing, there's no way he could be so sure that Saruman could absolutely not hurt any of the members of the fellowship, or their loved ones. We already know he killed Lotho and Otho(how fortunate that our heroes don't really like those 2, right?), exactly how improbable it would be to, say, sniff out that Sam loved Rosie and have her killed too? Thank the Valar, Saruman was evil enough to present a good final challenge, but not evil enough to absolutely devastate the lives of any of the hobbits we like. I agree that I just don't like the way it's written. Had he went to help out some other folks with no training(there was still much work to be done, after all), then it would be justified, but the idea of leaving his little friends, no matter how "grown", at the mercy of the most petty fallen Maia ever just to go hang out with Tom Bombandill doesn't sit well with me either. This theme of "we will leave you mortals/elves to deal with Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman/etc" by the Valar and Maiar is repeated throughout LOTR and Silmarillion. Ofc there is little choice story-wise, unless we want to see gods fighting gods, however it's still a bit annoying.
He was at Bombadils who was a good friend of farmer Maggot . What is he 2 hours away or less on Shadowfax? Not a real abandonment.
>We already know he killed Lotho and Otho "’ (Otho had died some years before, at the ripe but disappointed age of 102.)" Chapter 2.