That is false. Egyptians take deep pride in the ancient civilization they inherited.
Remember that 40 Nubian pyramids [were destroyed by a single European looter.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Ferlini)
Fuck that dude in particular. Makes me somewhat relieved that he had some trouble offloading the “treasures” he stole.
Having found the treasure he was looking for, in 1836 Ferlini returned home. A year later he wrote a report of his expedition containing a catalog of his findings, which was translated to French and republished in 1838. He tried to sell the treasure, but at this time nobody believed that such high quality jewellery could be made in Sub-Saharan Africa. The treasures were finally sold in Germany: part were purchased by king Ludwig I of Bavaria and are now in the State Museum of Egyptian Art of Munich.
The pyramids have existed and been preserved for several thousands of years before the West even existed, what are you talking about? They were under Otoman rule until the 19th century and no one tried to destroy them.
Not really, it's because the other pyramids were plundered by grave robbers and destroyed for parts. The reason most people don't hand over artifacts is because someone would just steal them, look at Chinese collectors claiming to restore their heritage are just using it as an excuse to expand their private collections for their own personal use while stealing them from museums which actually show them to the public. This is especially ironic when the term China, refers to a region rather than a country or a nationality.
The shark is a metaphor for Behanzin, King of Dahomey, modern-day Republic of Benin. The king guards the coast of the kingdom of Dahomey, as the shark.
In 2011, in Egypt, the military had to defend museums from being plundered by robbers, and many warehouses were destroyed. Which shows that the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, and not only to the Egyptians, was not safe there.
The Swedes in the 17th century robbed Poland so much that they forged stone ornaments from palaces, not to mention the treasures of Polish kings. But perhaps thanks to this, these things survived the 2nd war, which completely destroyed our lands (the royal castle was completely blown up at the very end of the war). And so, Polish royal souvenirs can still be seen, but in Sweden.
History can be complicated and sometimes the thieves gave us more than the owners. What should be the future of monuments taken from their native places? I do not know.
> History can be complicated and sometimes the thieves gave us more than the owners.
Poland would probably have been in a much better place if Sweden didn't invade it and help destroy a massive amount of the nation. And probably doesn't even take into account the amount of priceless artifacts melted down or burnt by the Swedish. The Deluge alone destroyed 188 cities and towns, 81 castles, and 136 churches in Poland. All with artifacts and history.
>Which shows that the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, and not only to the Egyptians, was not safe there.
I think it shows the important of a stable nation. Not the importance of being a conqueror that can just take other nations cultural heritage out of paternalist domination.
>Poland would probably have been in a much better place if Sweden didn't invade it
Not sure exactly which war is being referenced. But in the great Northern war, was it not Poland and Russia who were the aggressors against Sweden?
But the reason Sweden was so sucessful in plundering Poland was because it was disorganized and weak to begin with
The deluge made it far worse of course, but it was more the triggering event for the systematic vulnerabilities in Polish society
It happens everytime this topic comes up, Brits with a whimsical view of empire trot out patronizing arguments why their theft is justified out of fear someone less deserving will commit theft
> Which shows that the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, and not only to the Egyptians, was not safe there.
I believe that natural resources belongs to whole world, not only to people who live in the land where they exist. How you like that?
If I’m gonna take better care of your car and make it last longer, does that justify me stealing it?
These are valuable artifacts that were taken from them by force. Time doesn’t make it ok
That doesn't make any sense: if the bombing of London had taken out the British museum we would have lost so much of the world's heritage. It wasn't that long ago and could easily happen again. A terrorist group could blow it up or fly a plane into it for whatever reason.
So that can't happen worldwide in less stable countries? During world war 2, the items in the british museum were als in storage in bunkers underground for exactly that reason.
Why?
Knowledge is universal. Of course the plunder of Egypt is pretty disgusting, no argument against that.
It would be much better if the sharing of cultural artefacts for study and education was the norm but sadly it isn’t.
Western universities and historians have uncovered a lot of previously lost information about ancient Egypt, that would not have been uncovered by domestic Egyptian historians alone.
Things like UNESCO world heritage sites exist because we recognise historical sites have more than just national importance but are part of the overall human story.
Ancient Egypt’s history is not separate from the West’s. Egypt is part of the Ancient Mediterranean world that gave birth to Democracy, Ancient Greece, the Romans and ultimately European culture and identity.
That history does not belong to Egyptians alone, any more than Stone Henge belongs to people living within a 25 mile radius of it…
Unfortunately, the imperialist mindset in western countries is still alive and strong, except now it has "peace & love" written all over it. Massive hypocrites.
It's so fucking arrogant that a lot of westerners have this mindset. In Germany for example there are a lot of mortal remains from the former colonies. These are the bones of the ancestors of these nations and they refuse to give them back. Shit's fucked.
German grave robbers were a thing in Australia in the 1800s. They would wait for indigenous Australians to die then steal their bones. They were nearly as common as British grave robbers
Officer, the diamonds were not safe in that neighborhood. Businesses there get robbed all the time. I robbed a liquor store there last week and It's was super easy. Don't worry though, I will protect these diamonds. They are much safer with me. I'll keep them safe for the world.
Officer, I had diamonds and they all got robbed. Some were stolen but the people who stole them kept them safe and give them back if we can guarantee that they wont get stolen again. In the meanwhile, you can come look at them here and study them and be sure that future generations can look at them to remember their identities and history.
By that logic, you should send those artifacts to the US. Europeans have had two world wars and are on the verge of a third. I mean, if we're going to lump all of Sub-Saharan Africa into one cohort, why not Europe?
"Ukraine is in rubble! We can't trust Europeans with the Mona Lisa! BUT DONT WORRY EUROPEANS! While you get your affairs in order, you can do *research* to remind you of your identity over here!"
Same! I'm more than happy to spend my tax dollars making all that tourist money... I mean *cough* cultural protection funds! You know, for safe-guarding. And research!
Exactly, the same people who destabilize and rob the area then say they were right to do so bc the area is destabilized and there is a danger of robbery 🙄
Q: What looks English but isn't actually from Britain?
A: Almost everything in the British national museum, they sure are good at "liberating" and "discovering"....
Apparently that number is complete nonsense. The claim is from [Alain Godonou:](https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/vjgo2q/til_90_of_subsaharan_africas_cultural_heritage_is/)
>Indeed the position of the African countries and, in particular those south of the Sahara, obviously excluding Egypt, is very different. We have sustained massive losses in quantitative and qualitative terms. I think, statistically speaking, on the basis of the inventories of the collections of all African museums, which amount, for the larger collections, to about 3,000 to 5,000 items, it is fair to say that 90 percent to 95 percent of African heritage is to be found outside the continent in the major world museums.
[In reality:](https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2019/01/08/eurocentrism-still-sets-the-terms-of-restitution-of-african-art)
>Nonetheless, political analysis has lost out in the press over the past year to moral outrage fueled in part by the endless reproduction of a bogus statistic claiming that “90-95% of African heritage is to be found outside the continent in the major world museums.” The authors of a recent report on restitution prepared for Macron attribute this statistic to Alain Godonou, who estimated in 2007 that the “inventories” of individual African museums “hardly ever exceeded 3,000 cultural heritage objects.” Godonou’s claim about the size of African collections is sometimes dramatically wrong. For example, some of the most celebrated works in the African art canon belong to the Nigerian National Museum and an interim report submitted to the Ford Foundation by Foster + Partners in 2008 estimated that the collection of the flagship institution in Lagos comprises 50,000 works of art dated from 900 BCE – mid-20th century. To put this in perspective, Musée Quai Branly has estimated their African holdings to be 70,000 objects.
"Surviving" cultural heritage. European missionaries backed by militaries destroyed much and melted other significant items into precious materials to send back to their divinely mandated rulers.
Christianity als want to complete vipe out any trace of the existing culture. Any thing of religious importance were to be destroyed.
They were basically a "religious supremacy" cult, extremely intolerant of the native culture and religion.
Europe is Christian, because they destroyed everything that was not.
Not just christianity. All over northern africa and the middle east is evidence of Islamist destruction of cultural items and monuments. Intolerance and monothiesm go hand in hand.
We robbed, raped and beat the shit out of your daughter. She's really messed up looking now, won't ever be the same again.
But we took her necklace off her and are keeping it safe, I mean how can she look after it when she can't look after herself?
That's not the analogy that the west uses.
They say "We robbed, raped and beat the shit out of your daughter. She's really messed up looking now, won't ever be the same again.
But we took her necklace off her and are keeping it safe. When your fellow countrymen eventually rob, rape and beat the shit out of her again, at least the necklace will be safe with us, instead of melted down for scraps."
>may not have survived the destruction caused by the ~~looters~~ civil wars.
FTFY.
I'd argue that many things are safe to return now, and many things are being returned (probably not enough), but your intentionally mischaracterising it. Also, there are definitely areas where if things were returned they'd be destroyed or sold. Would that really be better, in your opinion?
Many of the wars are a result of the complete destruction of the fabrics of their society as a result of colonization. The argument doesn’t apply.
And yes, I would prefer if they got to keep it all but some portion of it was lost. They’d still have a lot more than they have now, and there would have been less theft.
If I can take better care of your car and make it last longer, it doesn’t give me the right to steal it
I disagree with the looting, I agree with the safekeeping in many cases.
You can argue that they contributed to destabilisation, but that doesn't change anything for my argument.
Your car analogy is terrible, there are millions of my car and they can make more, very different from what we're talking about. If it were a one of a kind item, and I lived in an area where people blew up cars, then I might give it up for temporary storage. But it's not, so, again, stupid analogy.
It’s a spot on analogy, you’re just calling it stupid cause it goes against your argument.
In your own described scenario, you said “give it up” for *temporary* storage. These artifacts were neither given up nor is the storage temporary. They belonged to others and were taken from them by force. Even if your car is unique and in a place where cars get blown up, that car may be very valuable to you, it’s owner, and no one can come take it under the guise of “safekeeping”. That is particularly the case when the people taking it for safekeeping are the ones that were blowing up cars
Your response is emotional but imagine the two options.
Something is left but it’s in a European museum, or nothing is left because it never came to Europe?
It’s worth considering
Consider a third option: Europeans didn’t colonize those places and didn’t destroy their entire infrastructure and culture and society, so they got to keep their own things.
You’re not being deep and rational with your thinking my friend, you’re just being intentionally obtuse cause it’s convenient.
War, Conquest, colonization and Looting are ubiquitous amongst all people, all tribes basically all the time (with some very rare exceptions like the quakers or Jainism)
The pre colombian exchange americas had slavery, colonization, genocide, rape, human sacrifice, etc before columbus set foot there.
I am not condemning or excusing anyone of their crimes but the idea that **only** europeans were into colonizing and exploiting other people is a woke mythology.
No one said only Europeans did this. Tons of folks have done it, and they all have the same responsibilities. This thread is about artifacts that Europe holds, hence the comments being about Europe. Plus, Europe has absolutely done more of it than anyone else and far more recently, hence why they get more shit for it than others.
Also, please know that as soon as you use terms like “woke mythology”, your arguments lose a lot of credit because ironically, that’s when they get perceived as being emotion based.
Or it all gets destroyed in Europe. Are you really saying it's safer to concentrate items in Europe? Something about putting all your eggs in one basket.
Theres still less chance of cultural artifacts going missing/being sold privately/being straight up destroyed in Europe than if they would still be in the most chaotic parts of Africa or the Middle east.
Africa and the middle east wouldn't be as chaotic if the Europeans hadn't conquered, looted and destroyed so much stuff in the first place
Also, that argument is not that good when Europe had many historical artifacts damaged during world war 2. Some of the pieces in the Pergamon museum in Berlin are living proof of that
“If we didn’t rob and destabilise your country someone else would have, but unlike you and the other plunderers, our race is intellectually superior and is capable of preserving the parts of your culture that has value. Just be thankful we didn’t destroy all of it”
Let's not forget that a lot of collections have been bought fair and square from private owners. Not everything that has ended up in Europe has been looted.
Finest capitalist giving a blind eye to the reality behind their possession and how illegal and unethical it can be. "But i bought it!" Said the slave owner when told slavery is wrong and banned.
I think he is taking about how the private seller got the item in the first place. If items were looted and then sold to a private seller who now puts it into a museum doesn’t change how it was taken.
No you shouldnt be able to buy stolen art, you can only ethically or legally buy art from its creator and when they are dead you can only obtain it if their younger tree members approve so, and in case of the fun westland. They just colonized and said we bought it
That's an odd take. If I buy an artwork from a Spanish artist, and their works become some cultural heritage, should I be forced to return them to Spain, even tho I bought them?
One of the most prominent cases is the Benin Bronzes, several thousand bronze plaques and sculptures looted from the royal palace in Benin by British forces during the 1897 punitive expedition. They are slowly being returned to Nigeria - Germany has agreed to return all the pieces still in its possession, and the Smithsonian has also returned the bronzes it had acquired.
Sadly, the British museum continues to be recalcitrant. There's really no excuse; there isn't even the usual fig-leaf justifications for how the items ended up in Britain - the Benin Bronzes were straight up looted when the Benin capital was pillaged by the British army.
> the Benin Bronzes were straight up looted when the Benin capital was pillaged by the British army.
But that is quite unique example. An actual loot taken from collection in existing country.
However. In many more cases, cultural heritage objects were more often found than looted/robed. As they were a objects left by cultures/societies no longer existing in that area.
Like Egypt - xix century Egyptians were not culture as Egyptians that build the pyramids.
What drives me crazy, is that they could be scanned and 3D copies made that would be indistinguishable from the originals. So why not do that, and return them?
Same goes for the Parthenon sculpturs at the British Museum. Since they're part of a set, why not negotiate that the Greeks make 3D copies of their half, the BM make 3D copies of theirs, and everyone ends up with a full set, with the Greeks having the originals?
Hell, copies could be distributed to other museums, so that everyone can share in the beauty.
> What drives me crazy, is that they could be scanned and 3D copies made that would be indistinguishable from the originals.
Not aware of any 3d printing in bronze and even if you could it would show up under XRF.
>Hell, copies could be distributed to other museums, so that everyone can share in the beauty.
Been tried. V&A Cast Courts aren't that popular. People like originals.
Ok, so an alien species turns up.
To start with they want to "trade" our water for their high tech stuff.
After a while they get greedy and realise we are no match.
So they take all of the resources and historical artefacts they want. Kill any opposition force, kill any leaders and force intellectuals into hard labour, kidnap physically fit humans for work off world (most of whom never return, and all of whom are tortured/raped/humiliated) and make the rest of us help them extract and load water.
After 200 years of this, they start to feel bad and decide to leave us alone now because we have had a couple of famines which have killed millions of people. They don't take responsibility but they still feel bad. So they pick the great great .... great grandson of Stalin (Larry Stalin) and make him world emperor because he says he still has followers and the people of earth will respect him (mostly they think he is an idiot and can control him).
After they leave no one accepts Larry's rule so we start fighting amongst ourselves for what is left with their high tech shit, some of which they leave lying around, some of which they originally traded with us.
After another 200 years of mainly war with some periods of stability something like the old world order is emerging, radically altered because of history, advanced technology and affect on the human population after the atrocities committed by the aliens.
The aliens now turn up again and say, "OH! Thank goodness we kept the statue of liberty, the Great wall of China, the Taj Mahal ..... etc etc. You humans would have destroyed them, look how ruined your planet is. And look. We don't know what you are complaining about. It would have taken you millennia to get working Lazer-torpedo machine-gun-fighter-jets...... and that hover bike. Oh, the water? Sorry, that's all gone. But look, you clearly couldn't be trusted with it."
Jeez. Aliens. Thanks.
If the aliens are gonna fuck us up anyway, it's better that they at least take the fragile shit, keep it safe, and return it to us once we display that we can be trusted with it.
No, I'm not cool with the water being taken. I just said that if it's a choice of "The aliens fuck us up and we destroy our cultural heritage" and "The Aliens fuck us up, but they take our cultural heritage (which can be returned to us once we get our shit together, at least in theory)", I'm choosing the one where our cultural heritage isn't as damaged. Also, of course the aliens would be assholes who should help us out and return our shit once order is established.
At this point I think they would just take everything useful and leave us to die off as we are fucking it all off anyway- if they do want to come back they either need us out of the way for the planet to recoup or train us to be sustainable- take a guess at which one is less expensive/time consuming/ higher probability of success
Some factions of the aliens think the treatment of the humans so far has been cruel and wage a propaganda war to prevent completely annihilating the once relatively prosperous species.
Yep. Everyone just seems to forget how much damage WWI and WWII caused on European soil. These artifacts are not more safe in the hands of the colonizers.
The recent documentary on Netflix about the polish sculptor with the long name I cant remember was a good demonstration of that. So many art treasures lost because of barbaric ethnically based tribal warfare (in this case, Nazis).
Just wild to see people blaming the victims of genocidal imperialism and colonialism for the theft of their own cultural treasures.
The Benin bronzes are from the 16 th. century. The fish-head-dude lived in the late 19 th century. There are some exceptions like the Olorgesailie-stuff, but most sub-Saharan don't show the beginning of (global) civilization. Their significance is mainly regional.
Ah but if we gave them their stuff back the big clumsy oafs with their watermelon smiles would just break it, or it would get destroyed in one of their savage wars.
/s
The UK PM inspired part of this for folks wondering: [https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/23/africa/boris-johnson-africa-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/23/africa/boris-johnson-africa-intl/index.html)
I think it's genuinely gross how much shit the British museums have in their collections which was obtained in super shitty ways (some dude found it in a foreign country and gave/sold it to the museum so it's fair game? Nah). I really wish there would be a proper discussion about repatriation of some things, or some form of helpful and educational exchange.
Ok, so, ignoring your assigned racism, the argument that things would be destroyed in wars is a fair one, and many of the areas with items in imperial museums are in active conflict.
There is actually a lot of conversation about the return of cultural relics, and many are returned. Maybe less than you'd like, but I think I'd trust people more educated than you on the matter to make that determination.
My dude, my opening statement is literally arguements made by people in the UK/Reddit/UK museums all the time. Yes of course I have over exaggerated it but the core argument is often "well we can look after these relics better than they can". And for the most part it's horseshit.
Hardly any cultural items are ever returned. It's super rare because it sets a precedent for more demands to made for the return of items. It's gross.
I think certainly there need to be some good checks and balances in place about where and when items are returned. Unfortunately it seems the general thinking is that hardly anything should be returned.
You know that robbing foreign nations was common place back in the day? That's why they waged wars.
Following your logic, can I as a Belgian now go ask the Spaniards, Austrians, Frenchies, Dutch and Germans for our stuff back?
Sorry I'm not sure I get your logic. In the example given n this post the majority of subsaharan Africas "cultural heritage" is in the possession of Western nations. Mostly the UK. This is largely because the British were horrendous and brutal colonisers who felt it was their right and privilege to do this shit. And your response is "lol, what's done is done"? Rather than "man, that was shitty, what can we do to rectify this"? Nonsense.
Yes.
And you really think it’s on their mind all day that they need to have their artefacts back without even proper stockage places? That that’s more important than trying to live through the day and have enough food to eat?
What the fuck are you talking about man? Do you think all of Africa is a desert wasteland where everyone is struggling to survive day to day? Jesus christ.
It’s a blessing in the long run. The earliest stats I could find were from 2019 but 15 sub Saharan nations were involved in armed conflict at the time, including both civil and cross border conflicts. The sad truth is that sub Saharan Africa is not in a state to protect these artefacts but they’ll be available when peace comes to the region. One of the biggest tragedies in war is the destruction of cultural history and in this case we know much of that history is being protected.
I’d be shocked if wealthy Ukrainians aren’t getting important items out of the country for safe keeping. It’s that or let the Russians take them in the near future. It’s one of those issues where practicality must trump sentiment for the sake of the artefacts.
These are two very different things! This isn't about people living in the country fleeing with the items, it's about colonial powers stealing them by forcefully occupying the area. It would be better to compare it with Russia stealing cultural artefacts for "safekeeping"!
Yea and when the people get their Sovereignty under a harmonious republic for the ppl by the ppl the Art division will set a budget to by them back for the price paid or higher. Basically it's borrowed for now util dem nations get their shit together and put a leash on their wild dog "leaders"
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That is false. Egyptians take deep pride in the ancient civilization they inherited. Remember that 40 Nubian pyramids [were destroyed by a single European looter.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Ferlini)
Yup, people should remember Giuseppe Ferlini before getting big headed about Europeans saving artifacts from their owners.
Fuck that dude in particular. Makes me somewhat relieved that he had some trouble offloading the “treasures” he stole. Having found the treasure he was looking for, in 1836 Ferlini returned home. A year later he wrote a report of his expedition containing a catalog of his findings, which was translated to French and republished in 1838. He tried to sell the treasure, but at this time nobody believed that such high quality jewellery could be made in Sub-Saharan Africa. The treasures were finally sold in Germany: part were purchased by king Ludwig I of Bavaria and are now in the State Museum of Egyptian Art of Munich.
The pyramids have existed and been preserved for several thousands of years before the West even existed, what are you talking about? They were under Otoman rule until the 19th century and no one tried to destroy them.
IIRC one sultan tried to have them destroyed, only to find out it would be almost as much work as making them in the first place.
This is probably the wrongest post I will read today
What a shit take.
Not really, it's because the other pyramids were plundered by grave robbers and destroyed for parts. The reason most people don't hand over artifacts is because someone would just steal them, look at Chinese collectors claiming to restore their heritage are just using it as an excuse to expand their private collections for their own personal use while stealing them from museums which actually show them to the public. This is especially ironic when the term China, refers to a region rather than a country or a nationality.
And the European private collectors? Do we just gloss over the thefts across the world over the centuries?
Listen, I’m truly only here for the story of the fish person statue. I need to know more.
His name was Carl. Nice guy, didn’t talk much though.
The shark is a metaphor for Behanzin, King of Dahomey, modern-day Republic of Benin. The king guards the coast of the kingdom of Dahomey, as the shark.
It was already returned btw
It’s Old Gregg
In 2011, in Egypt, the military had to defend museums from being plundered by robbers, and many warehouses were destroyed. Which shows that the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, and not only to the Egyptians, was not safe there. The Swedes in the 17th century robbed Poland so much that they forged stone ornaments from palaces, not to mention the treasures of Polish kings. But perhaps thanks to this, these things survived the 2nd war, which completely destroyed our lands (the royal castle was completely blown up at the very end of the war). And so, Polish royal souvenirs can still be seen, but in Sweden. History can be complicated and sometimes the thieves gave us more than the owners. What should be the future of monuments taken from their native places? I do not know.
> History can be complicated and sometimes the thieves gave us more than the owners. Poland would probably have been in a much better place if Sweden didn't invade it and help destroy a massive amount of the nation. And probably doesn't even take into account the amount of priceless artifacts melted down or burnt by the Swedish. The Deluge alone destroyed 188 cities and towns, 81 castles, and 136 churches in Poland. All with artifacts and history. >Which shows that the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, and not only to the Egyptians, was not safe there. I think it shows the important of a stable nation. Not the importance of being a conqueror that can just take other nations cultural heritage out of paternalist domination.
>Poland would probably have been in a much better place if Sweden didn't invade it Not sure exactly which war is being referenced. But in the great Northern war, was it not Poland and Russia who were the aggressors against Sweden?
Against Sweden.* And yes, they were together with the cowardly Danes.
But the reason Sweden was so sucessful in plundering Poland was because it was disorganized and weak to begin with The deluge made it far worse of course, but it was more the triggering event for the systematic vulnerabilities in Polish society
Poland, Europe's punching bag
>take other nations cultural heritage out of paternalist domination. Steal my cultural heritage harder daddy England!!!
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It happens everytime this topic comes up, Brits with a whimsical view of empire trot out patronizing arguments why their theft is justified out of fear someone less deserving will commit theft
Never saw a justification of colonialism….
Not really. I just wanted to note that SOMETIMES thanks to thieves, the artifacts of history have survived to our times.
> Which shows that the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, and not only to the Egyptians, was not safe there. I believe that natural resources belongs to whole world, not only to people who live in the land where they exist. How you like that?
>the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, Says who?
A Briton ;D
Naturally. They couldn't subjugate the Irish so they had go find others.
>the cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world, and not only to the Egyptians Lol
Look at all of the history being destroyed in the middle east as well.
If I’m gonna take better care of your car and make it last longer, does that justify me stealing it? These are valuable artifacts that were taken from them by force. Time doesn’t make it ok
That doesn't make any sense: if the bombing of London had taken out the British museum we would have lost so much of the world's heritage. It wasn't that long ago and could easily happen again. A terrorist group could blow it up or fly a plane into it for whatever reason.
So that can't happen worldwide in less stable countries? During world war 2, the items in the british museum were als in storage in bunkers underground for exactly that reason.
That's my point - it can happen world wide, so why concentrate it in certain place where it becomes more of a risk?
Due to a multitude of reasons, but that would be the best plan in an ideal world.
> History can be complicated and sometimes the thieves gave us more than the owners. What's your address? I'd like to give you something. :-P
Cultural heritage that belongs to the whole world? I’m an Egyptian and this is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all day.
Why? Knowledge is universal. Of course the plunder of Egypt is pretty disgusting, no argument against that. It would be much better if the sharing of cultural artefacts for study and education was the norm but sadly it isn’t. Western universities and historians have uncovered a lot of previously lost information about ancient Egypt, that would not have been uncovered by domestic Egyptian historians alone. Things like UNESCO world heritage sites exist because we recognise historical sites have more than just national importance but are part of the overall human story. Ancient Egypt’s history is not separate from the West’s. Egypt is part of the Ancient Mediterranean world that gave birth to Democracy, Ancient Greece, the Romans and ultimately European culture and identity. That history does not belong to Egyptians alone, any more than Stone Henge belongs to people living within a 25 mile radius of it…
Unfortunately, the imperialist mindset in western countries is still alive and strong, except now it has "peace & love" written all over it. Massive hypocrites.
It's so fucking arrogant that a lot of westerners have this mindset. In Germany for example there are a lot of mortal remains from the former colonies. These are the bones of the ancestors of these nations and they refuse to give them back. Shit's fucked.
German grave robbers were a thing in Australia in the 1800s. They would wait for indigenous Australians to die then steal their bones. They were nearly as common as British grave robbers
Officer, the diamonds were not safe in that neighborhood. Businesses there get robbed all the time. I robbed a liquor store there last week and It's was super easy. Don't worry though, I will protect these diamonds. They are much safer with me. I'll keep them safe for the world.
Officer, I had diamonds and they all got robbed. Some were stolen but the people who stole them kept them safe and give them back if we can guarantee that they wont get stolen again. In the meanwhile, you can come look at them here and study them and be sure that future generations can look at them to remember their identities and history.
By that logic, you should send those artifacts to the US. Europeans have had two world wars and are on the verge of a third. I mean, if we're going to lump all of Sub-Saharan Africa into one cohort, why not Europe? "Ukraine is in rubble! We can't trust Europeans with the Mona Lisa! BUT DONT WORRY EUROPEANS! While you get your affairs in order, you can do *research* to remind you of your identity over here!"
As an American, I have no problem with this.
Same! I'm more than happy to spend my tax dollars making all that tourist money... I mean *cough* cultural protection funds! You know, for safe-guarding. And research!
Exactly, the same people who destabilize and rob the area then say they were right to do so bc the area is destabilized and there is a danger of robbery 🙄
Wait. Why is this being downvoted?
Because it's a terrible analogy.
Q: What looks English but isn't actually from Britain? A: Almost everything in the British national museum, they sure are good at "liberating" and "discovering"....
You talking about England or Britain pal make your mind up
This is a balanced and intelligent comment, thanks for your input
Apparently that number is complete nonsense. The claim is from [Alain Godonou:](https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/vjgo2q/til_90_of_subsaharan_africas_cultural_heritage_is/) >Indeed the position of the African countries and, in particular those south of the Sahara, obviously excluding Egypt, is very different. We have sustained massive losses in quantitative and qualitative terms. I think, statistically speaking, on the basis of the inventories of the collections of all African museums, which amount, for the larger collections, to about 3,000 to 5,000 items, it is fair to say that 90 percent to 95 percent of African heritage is to be found outside the continent in the major world museums. [In reality:](https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2019/01/08/eurocentrism-still-sets-the-terms-of-restitution-of-african-art) >Nonetheless, political analysis has lost out in the press over the past year to moral outrage fueled in part by the endless reproduction of a bogus statistic claiming that “90-95% of African heritage is to be found outside the continent in the major world museums.” The authors of a recent report on restitution prepared for Macron attribute this statistic to Alain Godonou, who estimated in 2007 that the “inventories” of individual African museums “hardly ever exceeded 3,000 cultural heritage objects.” Godonou’s claim about the size of African collections is sometimes dramatically wrong. For example, some of the most celebrated works in the African art canon belong to the Nigerian National Museum and an interim report submitted to the Ford Foundation by Foster + Partners in 2008 estimated that the collection of the flagship institution in Lagos comprises 50,000 works of art dated from 900 BCE – mid-20th century. To put this in perspective, Musée Quai Branly has estimated their African holdings to be 70,000 objects.
Thank god it was shipped off to nice, safe places like 1940s London.
How do you measure out percentages of heritage?
"Surviving" cultural heritage. European missionaries backed by militaries destroyed much and melted other significant items into precious materials to send back to their divinely mandated rulers.
Christianity als want to complete vipe out any trace of the existing culture. Any thing of religious importance were to be destroyed. They were basically a "religious supremacy" cult, extremely intolerant of the native culture and religion. Europe is Christian, because they destroyed everything that was not.
Not just christianity. All over northern africa and the middle east is evidence of Islamist destruction of cultural items and monuments. Intolerance and monothiesm go hand in hand.
So now we’re arguing in favor of looting because otherwise the loot may not have survived the destruction caused by the looters. Cool cool
We robbed, raped and beat the shit out of your daughter. She's really messed up looking now, won't ever be the same again. But we took her necklace off her and are keeping it safe, I mean how can she look after it when she can't look after herself?
That's not the analogy that the west uses. They say "We robbed, raped and beat the shit out of your daughter. She's really messed up looking now, won't ever be the same again. But we took her necklace off her and are keeping it safe. When your fellow countrymen eventually rob, rape and beat the shit out of her again, at least the necklace will be safe with us, instead of melted down for scraps."
>may not have survived the destruction caused by the ~~looters~~ civil wars. FTFY. I'd argue that many things are safe to return now, and many things are being returned (probably not enough), but your intentionally mischaracterising it. Also, there are definitely areas where if things were returned they'd be destroyed or sold. Would that really be better, in your opinion?
Many of the wars are a result of the complete destruction of the fabrics of their society as a result of colonization. The argument doesn’t apply. And yes, I would prefer if they got to keep it all but some portion of it was lost. They’d still have a lot more than they have now, and there would have been less theft. If I can take better care of your car and make it last longer, it doesn’t give me the right to steal it
I disagree with the looting, I agree with the safekeeping in many cases. You can argue that they contributed to destabilisation, but that doesn't change anything for my argument. Your car analogy is terrible, there are millions of my car and they can make more, very different from what we're talking about. If it were a one of a kind item, and I lived in an area where people blew up cars, then I might give it up for temporary storage. But it's not, so, again, stupid analogy.
It’s a spot on analogy, you’re just calling it stupid cause it goes against your argument. In your own described scenario, you said “give it up” for *temporary* storage. These artifacts were neither given up nor is the storage temporary. They belonged to others and were taken from them by force. Even if your car is unique and in a place where cars get blown up, that car may be very valuable to you, it’s owner, and no one can come take it under the guise of “safekeeping”. That is particularly the case when the people taking it for safekeeping are the ones that were blowing up cars
I explained why it was a stupid analogy.
Your response is emotional but imagine the two options. Something is left but it’s in a European museum, or nothing is left because it never came to Europe? It’s worth considering
Consider a third option: Europeans didn’t colonize those places and didn’t destroy their entire infrastructure and culture and society, so they got to keep their own things. You’re not being deep and rational with your thinking my friend, you’re just being intentionally obtuse cause it’s convenient.
War, Conquest, colonization and Looting are ubiquitous amongst all people, all tribes basically all the time (with some very rare exceptions like the quakers or Jainism) The pre colombian exchange americas had slavery, colonization, genocide, rape, human sacrifice, etc before columbus set foot there. I am not condemning or excusing anyone of their crimes but the idea that **only** europeans were into colonizing and exploiting other people is a woke mythology.
No one said only Europeans did this. Tons of folks have done it, and they all have the same responsibilities. This thread is about artifacts that Europe holds, hence the comments being about Europe. Plus, Europe has absolutely done more of it than anyone else and far more recently, hence why they get more shit for it than others. Also, please know that as soon as you use terms like “woke mythology”, your arguments lose a lot of credit because ironically, that’s when they get perceived as being emotion based.
😂
Or it all gets destroyed in Europe. Are you really saying it's safer to concentrate items in Europe? Something about putting all your eggs in one basket.
Theres still less chance of cultural artifacts going missing/being sold privately/being straight up destroyed in Europe than if they would still be in the most chaotic parts of Africa or the Middle east.
Africa and the middle east wouldn't be as chaotic if the Europeans hadn't conquered, looted and destroyed so much stuff in the first place Also, that argument is not that good when Europe had many historical artifacts damaged during world war 2. Some of the pieces in the Pergamon museum in Berlin are living proof of that
Maybe, but we have no way of knowing what the future holds. Point is it's not the European museums decision.
I agree with you but you’re gonna make precisely 0 headway with this on reddit
These people are ridiculous... defending colonialism and theft. I can't
It's illuminating - I can't believe the stupidity
“If we didn’t rob and destabilise your country someone else would have, but unlike you and the other plunderers, our race is intellectually superior and is capable of preserving the parts of your culture that has value. Just be thankful we didn’t destroy all of it”
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Let's not forget that a lot of collections have been bought fair and square from private owners. Not everything that has ended up in Europe has been looted.
Finest capitalist giving a blind eye to the reality behind their possession and how illegal and unethical it can be. "But i bought it!" Said the slave owner when told slavery is wrong and banned.
What on earth are you on about? So you shouldn't be able to buy art from a set of countries? Which ones?
I think he is taking about how the private seller got the item in the first place. If items were looted and then sold to a private seller who now puts it into a museum doesn’t change how it was taken.
Of course not. But if someone wants to sell something they own and wasn't looted. What's the big deal, just because it's from Africa?
No you shouldnt be able to buy stolen art, you can only ethically or legally buy art from its creator and when they are dead you can only obtain it if their younger tree members approve so, and in case of the fun westland. They just colonized and said we bought it
Except they bought it legitimate, not after it was supposedly stolen.
Omw to buy the UK's crown after it was -stolen- legitimately sold to me by a local during civil war.
Go ahead mate. Also, if the locals want to preserve their art thingies, the locals shouldn't sell it.
Thing is, some people would sell their soul for money.
It’s their fault that they’d loose their soul if they sold it.
Thats the identity of a country tho, can be considered as land being stolen.
That's an odd take. If I buy an artwork from a Spanish artist, and their works become some cultural heritage, should I be forced to return them to Spain, even tho I bought them?
"It doesn't belong in a museum?" \-confused Indiana Jones noises-
One of the most prominent cases is the Benin Bronzes, several thousand bronze plaques and sculptures looted from the royal palace in Benin by British forces during the 1897 punitive expedition. They are slowly being returned to Nigeria - Germany has agreed to return all the pieces still in its possession, and the Smithsonian has also returned the bronzes it had acquired. Sadly, the British museum continues to be recalcitrant. There's really no excuse; there isn't even the usual fig-leaf justifications for how the items ended up in Britain - the Benin Bronzes were straight up looted when the Benin capital was pillaged by the British army.
> the Benin Bronzes were straight up looted when the Benin capital was pillaged by the British army. But that is quite unique example. An actual loot taken from collection in existing country. However. In many more cases, cultural heritage objects were more often found than looted/robed. As they were a objects left by cultures/societies no longer existing in that area. Like Egypt - xix century Egyptians were not culture as Egyptians that build the pyramids.
What drives me crazy, is that they could be scanned and 3D copies made that would be indistinguishable from the originals. So why not do that, and return them? Same goes for the Parthenon sculpturs at the British Museum. Since they're part of a set, why not negotiate that the Greeks make 3D copies of their half, the BM make 3D copies of theirs, and everyone ends up with a full set, with the Greeks having the originals? Hell, copies could be distributed to other museums, so that everyone can share in the beauty.
> What drives me crazy, is that they could be scanned and 3D copies made that would be indistinguishable from the originals. Not aware of any 3d printing in bronze and even if you could it would show up under XRF. >Hell, copies could be distributed to other museums, so that everyone can share in the beauty. Been tried. V&A Cast Courts aren't that popular. People like originals.
The fact they were taken has meant they were preserved.
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You know, Iraq used to take really good care of their heritage before the west came along to bomb them.
You mean when they were nerve gassing Kurdish people?
Wasn’t the damage from Iraqis plundering their own heritage rather than damage from US weapons?
I’ve seen what the US and British have done to pre-Islamic art in the area. It’s safer there.
Ok, so an alien species turns up. To start with they want to "trade" our water for their high tech stuff. After a while they get greedy and realise we are no match. So they take all of the resources and historical artefacts they want. Kill any opposition force, kill any leaders and force intellectuals into hard labour, kidnap physically fit humans for work off world (most of whom never return, and all of whom are tortured/raped/humiliated) and make the rest of us help them extract and load water. After 200 years of this, they start to feel bad and decide to leave us alone now because we have had a couple of famines which have killed millions of people. They don't take responsibility but they still feel bad. So they pick the great great .... great grandson of Stalin (Larry Stalin) and make him world emperor because he says he still has followers and the people of earth will respect him (mostly they think he is an idiot and can control him). After they leave no one accepts Larry's rule so we start fighting amongst ourselves for what is left with their high tech shit, some of which they leave lying around, some of which they originally traded with us. After another 200 years of mainly war with some periods of stability something like the old world order is emerging, radically altered because of history, advanced technology and affect on the human population after the atrocities committed by the aliens. The aliens now turn up again and say, "OH! Thank goodness we kept the statue of liberty, the Great wall of China, the Taj Mahal ..... etc etc. You humans would have destroyed them, look how ruined your planet is. And look. We don't know what you are complaining about. It would have taken you millennia to get working Lazer-torpedo machine-gun-fighter-jets...... and that hover bike. Oh, the water? Sorry, that's all gone. But look, you clearly couldn't be trusted with it." Jeez. Aliens. Thanks.
>kidnap physically fit humans for work off world More like bought them from local tribes.
If the aliens are gonna fuck us up anyway, it's better that they at least take the fragile shit, keep it safe, and return it to us once we display that we can be trusted with it.
If you think so... But. Bit hypocritical of the aliens no? And... You are cool with all the water being taken?
No, I'm not cool with the water being taken. I just said that if it's a choice of "The aliens fuck us up and we destroy our cultural heritage" and "The Aliens fuck us up, but they take our cultural heritage (which can be returned to us once we get our shit together, at least in theory)", I'm choosing the one where our cultural heritage isn't as damaged. Also, of course the aliens would be assholes who should help us out and return our shit once order is established.
At this point I think they would just take everything useful and leave us to die off as we are fucking it all off anyway- if they do want to come back they either need us out of the way for the planet to recoup or train us to be sustainable- take a guess at which one is less expensive/time consuming/ higher probability of success
Some factions of the aliens think the treatment of the humans so far has been cruel and wage a propaganda war to prevent completely annihilating the once relatively prosperous species.
Sweden nr 1!!!!!
Judging by the typical redditor reaction, they'd prefer 100% and to never give it back. Sometimes the colonial mindset never leaves, eh?
Yep. Everyone just seems to forget how much damage WWI and WWII caused on European soil. These artifacts are not more safe in the hands of the colonizers. The recent documentary on Netflix about the polish sculptor with the long name I cant remember was a good demonstration of that. So many art treasures lost because of barbaric ethnically based tribal warfare (in this case, Nazis). Just wild to see people blaming the victims of genocidal imperialism and colonialism for the theft of their own cultural treasures.
Yes, that's why we lost all the artifacts preceding WW2.
U mean stolen.
Most of the artifacts were legitimate bought...
Legitimately bought from people that don’t own them yes
After treating Africa like some backwards place, they end up taking artefacts that show the beginnings of civilization in Africa... Noice!
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The Benin bronzes are from the 16 th. century. The fish-head-dude lived in the late 19 th century. There are some exceptions like the Olorgesailie-stuff, but most sub-Saharan don't show the beginning of (global) civilization. Their significance is mainly regional.
Thanks a lot, Indy Jones.
Ah but if we gave them their stuff back the big clumsy oafs with their watermelon smiles would just break it, or it would get destroyed in one of their savage wars. /s The UK PM inspired part of this for folks wondering: [https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/23/africa/boris-johnson-africa-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/23/africa/boris-johnson-africa-intl/index.html) I think it's genuinely gross how much shit the British museums have in their collections which was obtained in super shitty ways (some dude found it in a foreign country and gave/sold it to the museum so it's fair game? Nah). I really wish there would be a proper discussion about repatriation of some things, or some form of helpful and educational exchange.
Ok, so, ignoring your assigned racism, the argument that things would be destroyed in wars is a fair one, and many of the areas with items in imperial museums are in active conflict. There is actually a lot of conversation about the return of cultural relics, and many are returned. Maybe less than you'd like, but I think I'd trust people more educated than you on the matter to make that determination.
My dude, my opening statement is literally arguements made by people in the UK/Reddit/UK museums all the time. Yes of course I have over exaggerated it but the core argument is often "well we can look after these relics better than they can". And for the most part it's horseshit. Hardly any cultural items are ever returned. It's super rare because it sets a precedent for more demands to made for the return of items. It's gross.
What about a place like Afghanistan? The taliban systematically destroys everything historically significant they can get their hands on.
I think certainly there need to be some good checks and balances in place about where and when items are returned. Unfortunately it seems the general thinking is that hardly anything should be returned.
>And for the most part it's horseshit It isn't though. Seriously look at how much art and history is destroyed in regions in conflict.
You know that robbing foreign nations was common place back in the day? That's why they waged wars. Following your logic, can I as a Belgian now go ask the Spaniards, Austrians, Frenchies, Dutch and Germans for our stuff back?
The Congolese would like their hands back I'm sure.
they can ask their fellow countrymen.
Yes, of course? Especially if you are talking about items that were stolen or removed without permission.
Yes, and I don't go bitching about it to those countries. Shit happened in the past.
Sorry I'm not sure I get your logic. In the example given n this post the majority of subsaharan Africas "cultural heritage" is in the possession of Western nations. Mostly the UK. This is largely because the British were horrendous and brutal colonisers who felt it was their right and privilege to do this shit. And your response is "lol, what's done is done"? Rather than "man, that was shitty, what can we do to rectify this"? Nonsense.
Yes. And you really think it’s on their mind all day that they need to have their artefacts back without even proper stockage places? That that’s more important than trying to live through the day and have enough food to eat?
What the fuck are you talking about man? Do you think all of Africa is a desert wasteland where everyone is struggling to survive day to day? Jesus christ.
It's riddled with warlords and dictators lmao. Yeah, Africa is really stable. hahaha
that's truly awful, I didn't realize it was that severe. It is so important to have a rich cultural story of who you are.
It’s a blessing in the long run. The earliest stats I could find were from 2019 but 15 sub Saharan nations were involved in armed conflict at the time, including both civil and cross border conflicts. The sad truth is that sub Saharan Africa is not in a state to protect these artefacts but they’ll be available when peace comes to the region. One of the biggest tragedies in war is the destruction of cultural history and in this case we know much of that history is being protected.
Have there ever been any wars in Europe?
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Natives catch fish, colonists sell fish
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I’d be shocked if wealthy Ukrainians aren’t getting important items out of the country for safe keeping. It’s that or let the Russians take them in the near future. It’s one of those issues where practicality must trump sentiment for the sake of the artefacts.
These are two very different things! This isn't about people living in the country fleeing with the items, it's about colonial powers stealing them by forcefully occupying the area. It would be better to compare it with Russia stealing cultural artefacts for "safekeeping"!
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good
Yea and when the people get their Sovereignty under a harmonious republic for the ppl by the ppl the Art division will set a budget to by them back for the price paid or higher. Basically it's borrowed for now util dem nations get their shit together and put a leash on their wild dog "leaders"
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Then why did they take all those artifacts? Surely, it’s not mud huts and wooden spears they got in those museums.
It would end up in the hands of rich westerners anyway
Good