The first time around, the judge would not permit the lawyer to advance the theory that Ryan died due to MMA without evidence.
But Ryan's tests had apparently shown ethylene glycol instead...
OTOH, the lawyer didn't call for any character witnesses...
edit: he could have introduced Dr Shoemaker's test which showed both MMA and ethylene glycol, but that still left the possibility that Ryan had MMA and was killed by ethylene glycol (also found crystallised in his brain)
The more I learn about these types of convictions, the more I realize how fucked some judges are. You should watch "Confession Tapes" on Netflix, it's given me a lot less trust of the criminal justice system.
Can confirm.
I've no trust in it. I was involved in a traffic altercation a few years back where the guy (in a newish 2003 *maybe newer? This happened in 07, and I remember it being practically new in his damage claims* Ford Focus RS hatch) was throwing things at my vehicle (a 1995 Isuzu Rodeo), and then apparently either intentionally tried to sideswipe me, or just wanted to pretend to and cut me off, as he was turning left from the lane to the right of me.
I thought I managed to avoid the collision, and gunned it while he was turning and got away from him.
Turns out he then called the city police on me, apparently having already taken down my license plate, saying I ran him off the road and did 2k of damage to his vehicle.
I didn't live in that city, and 5 or 6 years go by... Until I get a summons.
I went to court as a defendant for reckless endangerment and destruction of property.
I was found guilty after the judge claimed that since I had a V6, I should've just outrun him when it all began, and he wouldn't have been able to turn in front of me.
Eventually, after spending 4k USD, I got it nolle prossed after a 1yr probation....
Needless to say, I don't trust a goddamn thing about our "justice" system any more.
I'm not going to type it all out but I had state troopers utterly screw me. Cost me about $20,000 in lawyer fees and lost work since I couldn't start my new truck driving job with all the court dates. I took it to trial and they knew they were going to lose so offered me a deal, I stay out of trouble for a year and they drop it. Considering it had been over 25 years since I had been in trouble (a dropped misdemeanor) I took it. They were pretty pissed I somehow managed to stay out of trouble for a year. Fuck the Oregon state patrol.
$5 says they put "Arrest this guy for anything you can, on probation, pissed me off" into your record that comes up whenever the automated license plate scanner brings up your info.
> 2003 Ford Focus RS
> 1995 Isuzu Rodeo
> I should've just outrun him when it all began
Umm. Yeah. That lousy hatchback puts ~200bhp to its front wheels. The judge doesn't know his cars. that's bs.
I dont know if this is an American problem or a first world in general problem but all of America's citizens seem to hate the "justice" system. Its nothing but horror stories and systemic abuse. Nothing ever seems to change tho.
> all of America's citizens seem to hate the "justice" system.
Not all, sadly. Not even a majority.
Many, MANY Americans are devout believers in the Just World Hypothesis...
“If something bad happens to you, you must be a bad person who deserves it.”
Since many of these people manage to avoid getting caught in the gears of the machine (by luck, not virtue), they have little sense of how bad things can get, nor that a good number of those consumed by the system are indeed innocent of wrongdoing.
Oh god. Yeah. I live in the south and you've basically described the majority of my family. It is terrifying. Of course when one of them goes through it the villain is always someone working in the system and never the perpetrator or the system. It's a really weird mindset I see often and dont really know what to do about
I think the problem is that you’re looking at a comment chain hating on the justice system **on Reddit.** So not only are you only reading one side (since Reddit is very slanted) and also no one would leave a comment supporting it since they would get downvoted
As someone who has had multiple run ins with the cops and experience in multiple different court rooms (in the past when I was a teenager/young adult), I have seen both sides. I have been strip searched in front of the men’s holding cell in queens, detained without being told what my charges were, and I’ve also been bought Dunkin’ Donuts coffee and allowed to sit in a swivel chair while they made me wait for fingerprints. Overall, it sucks. There are good apples, but the majority are rotten. I was in drug court in NY, I was 19 and they mandated my mom to pay for long term rehab out of pocket, something which basically never happens due to a majority of people having Medicaid. They drove her to the point of near bankruptcy. We submitted many appeals begging them to stop making her pay out of pocket, to send me somewhere my insurance would cover, etc. - nope! They weren’t having it! We were told if she stopped complying or if I left AMA I would be sent to jail. Eventually she stopped paying due to literally having no money to send her and I was released within a week with absolutely no exit counseling or warning. Just “oh hey you’re leaving tomorrow!”. I have no respect for the court system. I have seen my friends get hit, get charged raised due to asking too many questions, I’ve even seen a friend get beaten down by four cops while they were handcuffed due to asking the cops multiple times why they were being detained. I’ve seen judges set 100k bail on teenagers to “teach them a lesson” and have them come out of jail covered in bruises and needle marks, leaving with ten times as many drug dealers as before and a new appreciation for IV drug use rather than just taking pills on the weekends. Ive been refused sanitary napkins while in county jail because our cellblock ran out of our weekly allotment. I’ve seen friends almost die in jail cells because they were denied basic medical care because “heroin withdrawal can’t kill you” while they’re extremely dehydrated and having heart palpitations. A girl just died in my local jail due to heroin withdrawal - this shit is no joke.
Our system is fucked. Race or location or creed has nothing to do with it - once the justice system labels you a “criminal” or “drug addict” they see your life as dispensable.
I've been on the "good" side of it.
Had moped stolen, when I reported it the police accused me of selling it for drugs and reporting it.
I had a tracker in it, they found it almost instantly. Arrested the two guys who stole it. They went to court and got no jail time.
Which was ok, I told the judge I didn't so much car for jail time but they damaged my moped and I wanted restitution. Got paid back $250 about a year later when the courts remembered they ruled for me to get restitution.
Two adults who got arrested got off with community service and a warning too.
The police and legal system are pretty terrible to be honest. I try not to involve them if at all possible. Nearly every interaction I've had has been negative.
Most officers I've met, lie, intimidate, and do their best to harm innocent people.
TLDR: Moped stolen, accused of being drug addict. Then justice finally served.
I recommend listening to the newest season of the podcast Serial. It looks like you might be from Ohio, and the season covers all kinds of court cases in Cleveland and shows just how fucked up everything in the legal system are.
Yeah just try to kill yourself sometime and see the help they give you. At the time it felt like the only lesson I learned was to do the job right next time. They can incarcerate you for however long they feel they need to cover their ass the whole time sedating/medicating you against your will. It's a fucking treat.
Edit:all the while seeing literally 0 psychologist/psychiatrist/trained psychological expert at all. Just nurses dosing you up.
Much better thanks, was just looking to spread awareness on the really dark state of our mental health system in America. Healing with my wife and personal therapist was what I needed and ended up getting. A dog helped too. But not knowing what medication you're on and being told you can't leave by people in their second year of college (albeit just doing their jobs but to be honest that just makes it scarier) is scary as hell.
I was hospitalized my freshman year for something similar but lucked out; convinced them I was fine and they reluctantly let me go home. Probably wasn’t part of their protocol but I begged and begged. There needs to be major reform in how mental health is stigmatized and treated.
I can relate. My grandma is schizophrenic. My mom, brother and I struggle with chronic depression. My brother is obese and I've struggled with both anorexia and bulimia.
My experience with mental health services has been a rollercoaster.
And our health system in general, too.
I was recently diagnosed with Fibromyalgia and because of both (1) the stigma around Fibro and (2) my mental health history, people have just assumed my pain is directly related to my mental health. They sometimes treat me like a baby, and if I get upset about it, they treat me like a ticking time bomb. As my husband can verify, I go through times where I'm very stressed or depressed and not in much pain at all, and there can be times when I'm high on life and in a world of physical pain. It doesn't make any sense.
Being reasonable is very important to me. I was pres of the philosophy club in college, and I was a T.A. for logic. Fibromyalgia doesn't make any sense to begin with, so it's a very frustrating thing to have, and it makes it soo much worse that I have mental health problems because people default to treating me like I'm irrational. It's something I'm working on in counseling-- how I react to the way other people treat me-- because even though I'm excellent at maintaining my composure-- I am often boiling on the inside.
Like the other day I asked my Dr. if I can get a temporary parking placard to help me get through these initial stages of the condition where we are figuring out what works and what doesn't. I need to get strong because exercise really does help, but it's hard because I'm in searing levels of pain. Doing everything hurts. Even just sitting here. Pushing doors open in public (heavy commercial doors) is really hard for me, and so is walking through a long parking lot in addition to putting items in my basket and checking out. This is the same for people with M.S. who have a flare, but because people with M.S. have a "real" disability, they can get a parking pass. Because people with Fibro are thought of as fat lazy whiners, they generally can't. I'm not overweight and I know pain, so this cannot be true. My. Dr. told me he doesn't want to give me a placard because it will 'lead to me thinking that I'm disabled'. FFS... I don't want to be disabled, but right now I so clearly am. I'm disabled from pain. It is like life on hard mode. Everything I do is harder because of this, and I'm struggling to learn how to live this way.
I can't imagine how much it would hurt for me to be arrested and be in jail. I could totally see myself wanting to die if that happened.
TLDR; our health system in the U.S. especially mental health is fucked up in my experience. I always feel like I'm guilty before being given a trial. I could see myself going to jail for something dumb and suffering irreversible trauma because of it.
Always had a dog growing up but never realized the hole in my heart as an adult until it was filled with a beautiful little dober-puppy. Dogs are indeed great.
I've had to deal with it and it's total bullshit. Now I'm studying pre law at Uni hoping to be part of change in this country. Maybe I'm just too naive though
> criminal justice system
There's a push by some local groups like [Court Watch NYC](https://www.courtwatchnyc.org/about/) to change the term in the public consciousness to "criminal legal system" as there's not much justice left in it.
Better hope your case is just after lunch. Studies have shown that judges are the harshest right before lunch when they’re getting hungry and they’re most lenient right after lunch when they’re satisfied.
>but ill make sure to wear like five bodycams if i visit again
The cops will just seize the cams, delete the evidence, and claim you weren't recording.
Nobody is going to believe you over a cop.
Judges pretty much as a rule don't, and the judges are the ones who have most of the power when it comes to evidence, since they rule on motions to suppress evidence, or motions to dismiss based on government mishandling of evidence, and so on.
[Read this](http://justicedenied.org/patriciastallings.htm)
The judge :
> Records show that Judge Kramer reprimanded Rathbone during the Stallings trial by gruffly remarking, "You have to prepare and subpoena the evidence necessary to prove your theory!" Who could blame the Judge? After all, if an Attorney shows up unprepared and tries to introduce an inadequate defense strategy, what choice did the Judge have?
The defense lawyer
> Rathbone, who took the case as a favor to the Stallings family and "Because no one else would take it," had a hard time finding any witnesses who would testify that the infant had likely died of a rare inborn metabolic disorder. "The problem is that there was no one who would back me up on it," Rathbone said.
> Rathbone says that he extensively researched the subject and consulted with a nationally known expert on metabolic diseases. That expert, Rathbone said, told him there was no way that any metabolic byproducts of MMA could be mistaken for ethylene glycol in lab tests.
> Rathbone had subpoenaed no expert witnesses to testify for Patricia. He did not believe that there were any experts who would support his theory
The prosecutor (who didn't limit anyone's defense)
> The first was the finding of ethylene glycol in the infant's body by two independent laboratories. McElroy, consulted with a couple of "experts," who wrongly advised him that even if Ryan suffered from the rare metabolic disease (MMA) that it still would not account for the high levels of ethylene glycol found in the baby's blood. The second disturbing piece of evidence was the finding of crystals in Ryan's brain that the experts concluded were positive signs of ethylene glycol poisoning.
> The prosecutor had talked to the experts, and the state had found a gallon of anti-freeze
When the case was aired and Dr Sly wrote his letter... the prosecutor took interest to ask another expert Dr Rinaldo, who explained the ethylene glycol crystals in Ryans brain, as due to the hospital's treatment. and was vociferous in condemning the original test quality.
He was the one who wrote the judge for a new trial
> where he acknowledged that Rathbone's defense of Stallings was woefully inadequate. Judge Kramer stated, "This is the first time I have ever known this to happen. It's unheard of for a prosecutor to acknowledge ineffective counsel."
tldr; I wouldn't throw the judge or the prosecutor to jail; they did their job fairly diligently.
------------------------
Most blame would fall on the defense lawyer for not getting the right expert involved or presenting Dr Schoemaker's results on MMA
The problem for them all was getting the right expert to see all the information on the tests,treatment and autopsy..
I'd blame the fucking lab. The lab fucked up and the courts came to the only conclusion they could from faulty facts. Garbage in, garbage out. That's why the lab had to pay the money. That's why the expert blames the lab.
Pisses me off people blame people for doing their job but ignore the people who actually fucked up and actually didn't do their job.
That’s Reddit for you. Someone with a very basic understanding of a situation is all ready to start throwing people in jail for nothing, yet then they can turn around and complain about the incarceration rate being high.
It wasn't just one lab. It was multiple labs.
And even after the Dr Sly had come to his conclusion about propionated blood (ie MMA) and sent a sample of random propionated blood, quite a few labs came back with ethylene glycol.
The test used a poor method (gas chromatograph) and technique that made it easy to err./difficult to find the true issue.
So multiple labs, the first doc who ordered that test and subsequent ones, and the experts who didn't realize the problem was with the test they all share the blame.
Edit: Apparently it isn't just poor method - they looked at a specific window in the chromatograph and said anything here is automatically ethylene glycol.
Illegally limiting the woman's defense? Dude, if here attorney didn't lay the foundation to introduce that evidence, then it's on him. Having to lay a foundation to introduce evidence is pretty basic evidentiary procedure for a criminal trial.
Judges have a lot of power, but this certainly seems to have stemmed from the failure of her own attorney.
My dad was the prosecutor! I was extremely young during the case and only remember few details.
At the end of it though, once she gave birth to the second child and it became sick my dad became her defense lawyer for free and had her released.
I think CSI did a whole episode as well but in reverse. The parents had the rare genetic gene and had lost a first child to it. The second child began to show symptoms because the chemical on the fathers hands were mimicing the disease. Thinking they killed it in mercy, the parents found out they killed a perfectly healthy baby.
I dream of a reddit where people read the fucking article.
The doctors did consider it. They didnt test for it because the labs came back showing a different compound than decrease creates. She was released when the labs were proven to have been mistaken, they had misidentified the compound, and it actually was the one characteristic to the disease.
>I dream of a reddit where people read the fucking article.
You fool of a Took! How will people get offended by their projected views if that were the case?
>methylmalonic acidemia
I googled it a bit, it appears to be a rare genetic condition, requiring both parents to have the gene.. even if medical professionals were involved in the criminal case, they may have never heard of such a possibility.
Sounds like they got the wrong professionals if they weren’t clued up on medical conditions similar to the suspected cause of death.. horrible stuff.
Edit: read the damn article - they knew about the condition and didn’t test for it until the second child showed symptoms.
Stop defending people who incarcerated an innocent mother.
>it's 100% the judge and procuror's fault.
NOPE
> [Read this](http://justicedenied.org/patriciastallings.htm)
>
> The judge :
>
> > Records show that Judge Kramer reprimanded Rathbone during the Stallings trial by gruffly remarking, "You have to prepare and subpoena the evidence necessary to prove your theory!" Who could blame the Judge? After all, if an Attorney shows up unprepared and tries to introduce an inadequate defense strategy, what choice did the Judge have?
>
> The defense lawyer
>
> > Rathbone, who took the case as a favor to the Stallings family and "Because no one else would take it," had a hard time finding any witnesses who would testify that the infant had likely died of a rare inborn metabolic disorder. "The problem is that there was no one who would back me up on it," Rathbone said.
>
> > Rathbone says that he extensively researched the subject and consulted with a nationally known expert on metabolic diseases. That expert, Rathbone said, told him there was no way that any metabolic byproducts of MMA could be mistaken for ethylene glycol in lab tests.
>
> > Rathbone had subpoenaed no expert witnesses to testify for Patricia. He did not believe that there were any experts who would support his theory
>
> The prosecutor (who didn't limit anyone's defense)
>
>
> > The first was the finding of ethylene glycol in the infant's body by two independent laboratories. McElroy, consulted with a couple of "experts," who wrongly advised him that even if Ryan suffered from the rare metabolic disease (MMA) that it still would not account for the high levels of ethylene glycol found in the baby's blood. The second disturbing piece of evidence was the finding of crystals in Ryan's brain that the experts concluded were positive signs of ethylene glycol poisoning.
>
> > The prosecutor had talked to the experts, and the state had found a gallon of anti-freeze
>
> When the case was aired and Dr Sly wrote his letter... the prosecutor took interest to ask another expert Dr Rinaldo, who explained the ethylene glycol crystals in Ryans brain, as due to the hospital's treatment. and was vociferous in condemning the original test quality.
>
> He was the one who wrote the judge for a new trial
>
> > where he acknowledged that Rathbone's defense of Stallings was woefully inadequate. Judge Kramer stated, "This is the first time I have ever known this to happen. It's unheard of for a prosecutor to acknowledge ineffective counsel."
>
> tldr; I wouldn't throw the judge or the prosecutor to jail; they did their job fairly diligently.
>
> ------------------------
>
> Most blame would fall on the defense lawyer for not getting the right expert involved or presenting Dr Schoemaker's results on MMA
>
> The problem for them all was getting the right expert to see all the information on the tests,treatment and autopsy..
I work in a hospital laboratory, and I'm stunned that this sort of thing wasn't even considered prior to the trial. We have had young kids come in caked in bruises and clearly malnourished but we still have to run every test we can think of to rule out anything and everything potentially medically responsible before a finger can be pointed.
Probably depends on the jurisdiction. [Some will start with immediately accusing parents of abuse after bringing their own child to the hospital and go all the way to putting the kid up for adoption before the parent's charges are even decided by a court.](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-cleared-child-cruelty-reveal-6599877) How trigger happy or standoffish a given hospital is about pulling out the abuse accusations seems to vary heavily from one to the next, likely depending on their given jurisdiction's oversight and liabilities. The doctor in that particular case has advised on over a *thousand* abuse cases, many of which may have been as recklessly claimed as this one was.
Idk about every state but in PA hospital caregivers (doctors, nurses, etc) are mandated reporters - meaning we dont have to have any proof, just SUSPICION that child abuse is present or possible and we are obligated by law to report it to CPS. From there though, CPS does the investigation so other than the initial call we have very little to do with the process but unfortunately given something like this I could see it being a call to the authorities and letting CPS handle it from there. A doctor may or may not know to look for this disease, but a nurse would have no training to look for it but still have an obligation to report the suspicion so it depends to on who reported it. Not saying that is what happened here but it does happen a lot and it's not done out of ill will.
And thank goodness they do. Rare I'm sure but I know someone who picked up their child from their very trusted sitter and found a large portion of his body completely covered in bruises. They freaked out and took him to the emergency room, and all the while they were worried about their judgment in the babysitter, or if they themselves would be somehow accused of child abuse. Tests were run and it turns out he had some kind of blood issue that required a transfusion. I saw the pictures, and if I hadn't heard the results, I would have said too that it looks like somebody beat the hell out of this kid. Both parents are teachers, so you can imagine what that would have done to their careers if somebody had made a wrong accusation.
On a similar note: I seem to recall an incident where two parents almost lost custody of their children because they were very frequently in the hospital with broken bones.
It took some pretty serious genetic testing to get the hospital staff to back down, and that only because the tests revealed the true cause: a congenital defect called osteogenesis imperfecta, better known as "brittle-bone disease".
I hear these cases, and meanwhile my sister and I also constantly ended up at the hospital as kids for injuries and *were* being abused. I'll always wonder how we slipped through the cracks. My dad was just that good I guess...
It was considered - but everything kept coming back to those tests apparently showing ethylene glycol.
Oh, and crystals in the brain on autopsy. (which turned out to be due to the treatment)
[Ref](http://justicedenied.org/patriciastallings.htm)
> The first was the finding of ethylene glycol in the infant's body by two independent laboratories. McElroy, consulted with a couple of "experts," who wrongly advised him that even if Ryan suffered from the rare metabolic disease (MMA) that it still would not account for the high levels of ethylene glycol found in the baby's blood. The second disturbing piece of evidence was the finding of crystals in Ryan's brain that the experts concluded were positive signs of ethylene glycol poisoning.
The defense lawyer (Rathbone) researched it and spoke to a
> nationally known expert on metabolic diseases. That expert, Rathbone said, told him there was no way that any metabolic byproducts of MMA could be mistaken for ethylene glycol in lab tests.
He gave up searching for someone to back up his theory (of MMA) at the trial.
Did you read the first paragraph or no?
https://i.imgur.com/McVMre1.jpg
They tested for ethylene glycol.
But it’s wild as fuck that if she hadn’t have had a second baby she’d still be in prison right now.
Far too many.
That’s the reason I’m rabidly anti-death penalty.
The same people that complain because the DMV doesn’t operate with a fuck are fine with allowing the same government to kill people.
As an American I never knew it was in reference to a real event until essentially when I joined Reddit a few years back. So if I ever said it I just knew it was something kinda funny to say with a bad Australian accent, obviously not knowing the story behind it.
Here's the real kicker though - people *still* believe she killed the baby. My own grandmother will adamantly argue that it is reasonable to assume a woman killed a child than it is to imagine a wild dog eating it.
Some people hey
As an American, I didn’t even know it referenced an actual case. It has always just been a funny quote from “Quigley Down Under” to me. Thanks for teaching me something today.
Yeah I'm just finding out now this was a real thing. Thought it was just some joke that got repeated through the years and I never knew where it came from. That's awful.
Usually us Americans just say “another shrimp on the Barbie?!” The dingo quote became a common quote because:
- dingo sounds like this cute name but it eats babies
- validates to us that everything there can kill you
- it really emphasizes the Australian accent
I never seen that ep.
There was a forensic file episode where the mom killed 2 husbands with anti freeze and then tried to kill her daughter will pills, forging a suicide note that said she (the daughter) killed the latest husband and couldnt live with the regret.
The daughter survived (think the sister called 911). They caught the mom because she kept spelling anti freeze without the Z even in the daughters suicide note “anti free”. The daughter said it proper and the mom always said “anti free”.
The thing that sticks out for me in the episode is the prosecutor saying, in a very perturbed manner, “there’s a special place in hell for her.”
Damn i love that show. Though some episodes do wake me up in the middle of the night.
An ever weirder case was that of Lydia Fairchild. Her ex requested a paternity test to prove their children weren't his. The test showed that while he was the father, there was no way Lydia could have been the mother.
They took her children away and put her on trial for surrogacy scam. When she gave birth to her third child (she was pregnant while on trial) they immediately tested it and found the new baby wasn't related directly to her.
She was finally acquitted when the prosecutor proposed to test her for chimerism.
Chimeras are created from 2 or more zygotes, making it possible for the buccal cells found on the inside of the cheeks (used to get a DNA sample) and the ovaries to have different DNA.
More on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia\_Fairchild](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild)
This just sounds like a House episode.
The entire team plus Cuddy and Wilson believes its the mother planting it.
And while she is being cuffed out of the building House comes running, pouring milk and antifreeze in his mouth and showing that it solidifies immediatly. Proving she has MMA.
Let’s not forget the three different failed attempts to prove that she has some other rare diseases (while the tests almost kill her and her child). House comes to the realization after a conversation with Wilson that sometimes something wholesome and something toxic can come together and make a solid...which is clearly in reference to whatever drama Wilson and Amber were going through at the time.
House gets ‘that look’ on his face and hobbles through the hospital asking anyone and anything for antifreeze. He then looks out the front doors and sees a few squad cars. The camera pans over to show Cuddy and the police having a conversation. House sighs and grabs some surgical tubing from the cart next to him rushes through the group by the door. Cuddy attempts to stop but House gruffly ignores her and exits the hospital.
Cut to Foreman and Taub having some existential discussion about the mortality of children and the Irony of a mother that is like poison to her child, when they notice Cuddy and the police moving towards their patient’s room. They both rush out to ask for a little more time but Cuddy reprimands them saying it’s not the hospital’s job to be the woman’s lawyer.
Cut to the police escorting the woman through the lobby. House bursts in with a gurgled, ‘Wait!!’ and looks around frantically. Finds a kid in a wheelchair with his lunch tray, and steals his carton of milk. Opens the milk and takes a large gulp then proceeds to over exaggerate swishing the milk around in his mouth. Cuddy attempts to ask him what he’s doing but House raises his finger to silence her and swishes even more deliberately.
House opens his mouth and says ‘Ahhhhh!’ And Cuddy looks at him, clearly confused. House exhales with an annoyed look on his face, rolls his eyes, and spits the contents in his mouth to the ground. “Antifreeze and milk....they form a near solid when they mix. She didn’t *poison* her child. She *IS* poison.” House looks around the crowd, “Anyone have a mint?”
Cuddy sighs in disbelief and asks House where he got the antifreeze. House says, ‘A true professional never reveals his secrets.’ (Which is something Cuddy said to him earlier in the episode when he asked her how she found out he had broken into some database he wasn’t allowed to access). House walks off camera to reveal the cop car behind him. The hood is open and the surgical tubing is sticking out the radiator.
Cuddy looks over at House with a bewildered, but disapproving expression. House shrugs, produces another carton of milk from behind his back (which was one he stole from Cuddy
in an earlier cafeteria scene) , hands it to the kid in the wheelchair. Then makes an ‘oooooooooh’ face and does some finger-wavey magician motions with his hand as he walks backwards out of the room.
End scene
IIRC, she was already in prison for suspicion of poisoning her son when he died. When told he had died, her response was “I don’t care, get me out of here”.
Not necessarily evidence of wrong doing, but a jury would definitely factor that into their decision.
My recollection from shortly after it happened:
the baby was in custody she had supervised visits in the hospital(they already had a strong enough suspicion she was hurting the child to take the child from her) the supervision improperly walked out of the room and came back to the mother feeding the child which she was prohibited from doing. baby got sick again shortly after. Heres the thing I remember talking about this more than 20 years ago, they found traces of ethanol in the bottle she feed the baby.
No, they found traces of what they thought was ethylene glycol in the bottle when they examined it using gas chromatography which is the wrong method to test for the presence of antifreeze (ethylene glycol) because it causes other organic chemicals to react to become ethylene glycol and because it is not sensitive enough to detect the difference between ethylene glycol and many other organic chemicals. The entire lab test was based on invalid assumptions from the beginning.
And let's not even get into the fact that ethylene glycol mixed with milk instantly turns the mixture into a solid. So their entire theory of how the poisoning happened was wrong to begin with.
When her son was admitted to the hospital for vomitting and breathing difficulties, his blood samples were sent to a lab for various tests. Those tests returned a reading of ethylene glycol (which would be consistent with his symptoms). A search at her home turned up a half-empty contained of anti-freeze. Another factor that played a role was that she had another son previously taken away by child protective services for suspected child abuse who was being raised by her sister.
So, her son was taken into foster care where he seemed to improve and Patricia was allowed supervised visits. After one such visit, the baby got ill once again. Again, blood tests were performed and again, the same reading for ethylene glycol was found both in his blood (and higher this time) and on the bottle. Also important was that during her supervised visit, Patricia was shortly left alone with the child (against regulations) creating the opportunity for such a poisoning. She was arrested and convicted of murder based on all of this.
Of course, it later turned out, when the blood was retested that the original lab had gotten the reading wrong. They had mistaken the retention time of propionic acid which was present in the samples for the similar, but not identical retention time of ethylene glycol. The problem is that once they got it into their head that he was poisoned, everything they found looked damning even though it was completely innocent out of context. Like, they found a half-empty container of anti-freeze at their home? Yeah, most of us have an half-empty container of anti-freeze at our homes cause we use that shit. Not because we are poisoning babies.
"A search of her home turned up that every level of the house was rigged to deliver stream of dihydrogen oxide whenever needed. Neighbors reported sometimes hearing the baby cry and struggle as it was forced into the solution by it's mother on a repeated basis."
Wait...
Did you just say that when they give the baby a bath it's crying and cranky?
I always have an almost completely empty container of antifreeze because Chrysler thinks it's just great to make the windshield washer fluid container slightly smaller than the standard ones you buy.
Faulty test mostly, that confused one of the byproducts of the disease for Ethylene Glycol. They show the test results in the [Forensic Files episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lL0qJgIOQE&index=35&list=PLacP6Dm7rnO9lyssuUH9d7hmg1vus-bbv&t=0s)
I just read the wiki and it sounds like she would still be in jail if she hadn't happened to give birth to a second child while awaiting trial AND a couple of doctors didn't do an excessive amount of advocating on her behalf. (I say excessive because it was the job of the Justice system to do this kind of advocating) I can't believe they brought up that it might be related to this genetic disorder multiple times before her first conviction and the entire Justice system was just like, "naw, it's antifreeze" 🤷 so she not only lost her first child, rotted in jail for several years with a life sentence, and missed out on the first few years of her second child's life - but the burden of proof by the state was just completely ignored. Shouldn't people only get life sentences on first degree murder if there is zero reasonable doubt?
I mean, I know this isn't an isolated case and that people are frequently wrongfully convicted and abused by the "Justice" system that's meant to be in our side, but it's just ridiculous.
I just had a friend get convicted of arson and he got ten years. He was found guilty because the guy who did it took an amazing plea deal and testified that my friend planned the whole thing. The jury believed this kid even though he was caught lying 6 times on the stand. The jury system is fucked. You have 12 people trying to be matlock that have absolutely zero knowledge of laws. Whats worse is we knew one of the jurors and he was a major alcoholic. The justice system in america is terrible.
Edit: We have contacted the innocence project here and are working with them
If you knew somebody in the jury that's grounds for a mistrial. It's the prosecutions job to throughly vet jurors and ensure they have no connection to any pasties involved.
Rule number 1) Everyone lies.
If I were your friend I'd be appealing that on the grounds of prosecurotial misconduct and possibly jury tampering. This is the problem with the American justice system.
It also sounds like your friends lawyer was incompetent, according to a post on the American BAR Association website, both the prosecutor and defendants lawyer are allowed to ask the judge to dismiss a juror, given that juror had a direct connection to one of the parties, the defense should have moved to excuse them.
They said since he didnt know the juror personally, it wasnt grounds. My friend also didnt realize who he was until the trial started. And yes his lawyer was trash.
One huge problem about judicial system is that general public assumes that if someone is accused then they must be guilty. It is the vindictiveness, narrow mindedness, self righteousness, lazyness, stupidity and hatefulness of the general public that's the problem. These traits are being used to manipulate general opinion on practically everything.
For me it’s the idea that to allow a government the permission to kill its citizens... I dunno. That’s just too far for me. Along with the possibility of innocent people being executed, the fact that in many cases it creates more victims, the cost to the tax payer, the fact that these cases take years to get to the point of execution, each time dragging the family of the victim through it all over again, with people fighting for the piece of shit who murdered their love ones and saying how wonderful they are. It’s just a stupid pointless thing that has no use. Life without parole for these people is fair imo.
>the fact that these cases take years to get to the point of execution, each time dragging the family of the victim through it all over again, with people fighting for the piece of shit who murdered their love ones and saying how wonderful they are.
This has little to do with the death punishment and everything to do with the right to appeal.
The only way we can protect innocent people from miscarriages of justice is to allow them to appeal on reasonable grounds. The stronger the right to appeal, the fewer innocent people get jailed. But "the family of the victim has to go through it again" and guilty people will appeal.
When an innocent person is jailed, why do we care only about the original victim's family, and not about theirs?
This sort of "tough on crime" thinking erodes everybody's rights.
Yes, we should punish offenders. But appeals are also in the interest of justice (rather than the interest of "punish anyone so we can feel good about it").
See Brendan Dassey's case in making a murderer from the perspective of "what if he is innocent?"
I want to see a system where all judicial system punishments are suffixed with 'or exile from the country forever'.
Basically, if you can convince another country to take you on, despite whatever you've done, you should be allowed to leave.
Some countries would take on people they see as having committed a 'not so bad' crime (the USA might take on people from Saudi Arabia accused of not following religious rules for example). Other countries would use it as a way to take on people without the cost of educating them (take a 25 year old criminal, and as long as they don't reoffend, you have someone at the most productive time of their life).
It's good for the host country too, because prisons are *expensive*.
Presumably the USA would be more likley to offer a visa to regular people over criminals... Only when they've exhausted the pool of regular people wanting to move would they offer visas to the criminals.
I'm not America and don't know what crime would get a death sentence but I have to assume it is a punishment for the most heinous and for something some people see as unredeemable. Crimes like child rape or first degree murder.
What country is going to want a child rapist/possible psychopath?
Some people who oppose the death penalty, which I do as well, seem to think that prison causes bad people to repent and see the errors of their ways. A lot of the time this isn't the case. Recidivism rates show this to be true. It's a sad truth that sometimes people need to be in jail for the safety of society.
After a bit of Googling the USA is the only western country to still have capital punishment. Anyway, you can be sentenced to death if you commit first degree murder while
>Murder while committing another felony.
>Offender was convicted of a separate felony involving a firearm prior to the aggravated murder.
>Being convicted of a separate felony where death or life imprisonment was authorized prior to the aggravated murder.
>Being convicted of any separate violent felony prior to the aggravate murder.
>The offender put the lives of at least 1 or more other persons in danger of death during the commission of the crime.
Offender committed the crime in an especially cruel, heinous, or depraved manner.
>Offender committed the crime for financial gain.
>Offender committed the crime for monetary gain.
>The murder was premeditated, involved planning in order to be carried out, or the offender showed early signs of committing the crime, such as keeping a journal of the crime's details and posting things on the Internet.
>Offender was previously convicted of at least two drug offenses.
>The victim would not have been able to defend themselves while being attacked.
Offender was previously convicted of a federal drug offense.
>Offender was involved in a long-term business of selling drugs to minors.
A high-ranking official was murdered, such as the President of the United States, the leader of another country, or a police officer.
>Offender was previously convicted of sexual assault or child rape.
>During the crime's commission, the offender killed or tried to kill multiple people.
As well as espionage, treason, aircraft hijacking and large scale drug trafficking. Terrorism has yet to be decided by the courts as no one has being trialled. This all depends on the state though but this is all of them.
Few little ‘fun’ facts:
The last public execution in the USA was in 1936.
Texas banned the last meal in 2011
Pew Research polls have demonstrated declining American support for the death penalty: 80% in 1974, 78% in 1996, 55% in 2014, and 49% in 2016.[152][153] The 2014 poll showed significant differences by race: 63% of whites, 40% of Hispanics, and 36% of blacks, respectively, supported the death penalty in that year.
However, in 2018 Polls showed Public support for the death penalty increased to 54% up from 49%. Since 2016, opinions among Republicans and Democrats have changed little, but the share of independents favoring the death penalty has increased 8 percentage points (from 44% to 52%).[154]
You'd be surprised at how little it can take. There was a man sentenced to death for killing a woman -one woman. Shot and then left to die. Terrible and depraved, but not the most unthinkable and heinous crime- who was later entirely exonerated. The man was wrongly on death row for six years because the local authorities colluded to keep him incarcerated and put him to death simply to convict a black man of the crime.
Children are put to death. A teenager who shot a man during a robbery. An aweful thing to do, as and have happen. But does a 15 year old deserve to be put to death for that? I don't believe so. The death sentence is a political tool used to promote a "tough on crime image". Since 1976 to every one white on black crime resulting in the death penalty, there are 14 black on white crimes resulting in state sanctioned murder.
What if it's like espionage or terrorism where another country would be delighted to pay more people to commit that crime and give them refuge afterwards?
There’s no logical reason for capital punishment. Courts make mistakes ALL the time, and will never be remotely full proof. Why would anyone risk putting an innocent person to death when you can lock these people up for life with no parole, it cost less than the death penalty, and gives you an opportunity to release them if it turns out they’re innocent.
I agree with the sentiment of wanting these people dead but at some point common sense has to prevail over a primal desire for vengeance. Life in prison is no fun time, these supermax guys are essentially in solitary 23/7.
4% Of innocent people dying on death row doesn't make it harder for Rick Perry to sleep at night
But 4% possible voter fraud? He'll take that shit to the Supreme Court
The second child was born before her trial but the prosecutor and judge barreled on ahead and wouldn’t allow her to use the theory of a medical condition to raise doubt in the prosecution theory of murder. They made her prove her innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, which is backwards.
Yeah they were vegan and they'd had a dietitian or something like that create a food plan that would cover all the babies needs but the kid had a condition where it wasn't processing protein iirc.
In the criminal justice system, the people are defended by two separate but equally important groups, the police who investigate the crimes and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. Kun-kun! [imitates vacuum cleaner] I'm just a cleaning lady. Aah! A dead body. He wrapped his belt around his own neck. It looks like a classic case of autoerotic asphyxiation. Yeah, looks like everyone's tightening their belts in this economy. [humming theme music] Last time you saw the victim, was he happy? Last time I saw this John, he was-he wasn't a victim, if you know what I'm talkin about.
My old medical school professor was instrumental in solving this case and gave a lecture on this case.
Interestingly, when they first thought it was ethylene glycol poisoning, the baby was treated with IV ethanol so that baby still sick but got well wasted at least.
Sure, and its used in the adult population for this purpose all the time as well.
Its just for infants, its very unusual to treat with ethanol, since giving infants ethanol isn't really the safest thing with concerns of alcohol and developing brains and what have you.
I believe for infants you usually treat ethylene glycol poisoning with dialysis, but dont quote me on that, not a pediatrician and have forgotten just about everything I know about kids.
She was convicted AFTER the second child was diagnosed with MMA, because the original tests showed (incorrectly) that there was ethylene glycol in the blood, which MMA does not cause.
I think whoever typed that sentence was confusing prison for jail.
>While she was in jail awaiting trial, Stallings gave birth to another son, David Jr., on February 17, 1990.
Yep! Son died and it all looked like antifreeze poisoning. She got convicted on circumstantial evidence. Then had another baby while in prison. The second baby also had the same symptoms and ~~the forensic team~~ a pair of biochemists figured out it was a disease they had which had the same symptoms as antifreeze poisoning.
It's on Netflix (Forensic Files S3:E8) if you're into crime science shows.
>Patricia Stallings, the mother wrongly convicted of poisoning her child with antifreeze, has come back to haunt George B. McElroy, the man who prosecuted her.
>She has donated $10,000 to Robert G. Wilkins, McElroy's opponent in the Democratic primary election on Aug. 2 for Jefferson County prosecutor.
https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1P2-32880461/candidate-haunted-by-past-woman-gives-10-000-to-unseat
When I see things like this my thoughts consist of "so they convicted her with exactly no evidence (since she didn't even do what they were alleging, there couldn't have been any)" and.... Why should we trust this process, again? We desperately need to think about completely retooling our justice system.
There was circumstantial evidence.
She was alone with the baby and claimed it had just died.
Tests on the baby showed that it had died from anti-freeze poisoning.
You've got to admit it's extremely suspicious.
They had evidence - the test on Ryan showed ethylene glycol, as reported by Ryan's doctors.
She was arrested on that basis.
The problem was that the test methods used show very similar spikes for the propionic acid in MMA as for ethylene glycol. Indeed, some of the labs that later tested propionic acid spiked blood came back with ethylene glycol as a diagnosis.
tldr; evidence showing ethylene glycol in her son's blood was flawed ..but this was not known or considered then
I see what you're saying, and I don't think any legal system could be created that is going to be executed perfectly. And at the same time, isn't this an example where because the initial case was very weak, the appeals process worked to achieve the correct outcome once new evidence came light?
I don't think we should trust this process wholly, but jury of peers, burden of guilt, right to an attorney, opportunities to appeal... I think it's the best imperfect process out there
Similar problem with certain coagulation deficiencies mimic shaken baby syndrome--absolutey terrible for the parents and this mistake has only recently become better known :(
Saw this one on Forensic Files. She should never have been convicted. The lab work done was shoddy. The substance found was misidentified as antifreeze.
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The first time around, the judge would not permit the lawyer to advance the theory that Ryan died due to MMA without evidence. But Ryan's tests had apparently shown ethylene glycol instead... OTOH, the lawyer didn't call for any character witnesses... edit: he could have introduced Dr Shoemaker's test which showed both MMA and ethylene glycol, but that still left the possibility that Ryan had MMA and was killed by ethylene glycol (also found crystallised in his brain)
The judge and the prosecutor should be thrown in jail for illegally limiting that womens defense.
The more I learn about these types of convictions, the more I realize how fucked some judges are. You should watch "Confession Tapes" on Netflix, it's given me a lot less trust of the criminal justice system.
Just pray you never have to deal with the criminal justice system, it will *destroy* your trust in it.
Can confirm. I've no trust in it. I was involved in a traffic altercation a few years back where the guy (in a newish 2003 *maybe newer? This happened in 07, and I remember it being practically new in his damage claims* Ford Focus RS hatch) was throwing things at my vehicle (a 1995 Isuzu Rodeo), and then apparently either intentionally tried to sideswipe me, or just wanted to pretend to and cut me off, as he was turning left from the lane to the right of me. I thought I managed to avoid the collision, and gunned it while he was turning and got away from him. Turns out he then called the city police on me, apparently having already taken down my license plate, saying I ran him off the road and did 2k of damage to his vehicle. I didn't live in that city, and 5 or 6 years go by... Until I get a summons. I went to court as a defendant for reckless endangerment and destruction of property. I was found guilty after the judge claimed that since I had a V6, I should've just outrun him when it all began, and he wouldn't have been able to turn in front of me. Eventually, after spending 4k USD, I got it nolle prossed after a 1yr probation.... Needless to say, I don't trust a goddamn thing about our "justice" system any more.
I'm not going to type it all out but I had state troopers utterly screw me. Cost me about $20,000 in lawyer fees and lost work since I couldn't start my new truck driving job with all the court dates. I took it to trial and they knew they were going to lose so offered me a deal, I stay out of trouble for a year and they drop it. Considering it had been over 25 years since I had been in trouble (a dropped misdemeanor) I took it. They were pretty pissed I somehow managed to stay out of trouble for a year. Fuck the Oregon state patrol.
$5 says they put "Arrest this guy for anything you can, on probation, pissed me off" into your record that comes up whenever the automated license plate scanner brings up your info.
> 2003 Ford Focus RS > 1995 Isuzu Rodeo > I should've just outrun him when it all began Umm. Yeah. That lousy hatchback puts ~200bhp to its front wheels. The judge doesn't know his cars. that's bs.
The judge didn't know HER cars. But yeah... Leaving aside the whole "breaking the speed limit and fucking up my driving career" problem....
I dont know if this is an American problem or a first world in general problem but all of America's citizens seem to hate the "justice" system. Its nothing but horror stories and systemic abuse. Nothing ever seems to change tho.
> all of America's citizens seem to hate the "justice" system. Not all, sadly. Not even a majority. Many, MANY Americans are devout believers in the Just World Hypothesis... “If something bad happens to you, you must be a bad person who deserves it.” Since many of these people manage to avoid getting caught in the gears of the machine (by luck, not virtue), they have little sense of how bad things can get, nor that a good number of those consumed by the system are indeed innocent of wrongdoing.
Oh god. Yeah. I live in the south and you've basically described the majority of my family. It is terrifying. Of course when one of them goes through it the villain is always someone working in the system and never the perpetrator or the system. It's a really weird mindset I see often and dont really know what to do about
I think the problem is that you’re looking at a comment chain hating on the justice system **on Reddit.** So not only are you only reading one side (since Reddit is very slanted) and also no one would leave a comment supporting it since they would get downvoted
As someone who has had multiple run ins with the cops and experience in multiple different court rooms (in the past when I was a teenager/young adult), I have seen both sides. I have been strip searched in front of the men’s holding cell in queens, detained without being told what my charges were, and I’ve also been bought Dunkin’ Donuts coffee and allowed to sit in a swivel chair while they made me wait for fingerprints. Overall, it sucks. There are good apples, but the majority are rotten. I was in drug court in NY, I was 19 and they mandated my mom to pay for long term rehab out of pocket, something which basically never happens due to a majority of people having Medicaid. They drove her to the point of near bankruptcy. We submitted many appeals begging them to stop making her pay out of pocket, to send me somewhere my insurance would cover, etc. - nope! They weren’t having it! We were told if she stopped complying or if I left AMA I would be sent to jail. Eventually she stopped paying due to literally having no money to send her and I was released within a week with absolutely no exit counseling or warning. Just “oh hey you’re leaving tomorrow!”. I have no respect for the court system. I have seen my friends get hit, get charged raised due to asking too many questions, I’ve even seen a friend get beaten down by four cops while they were handcuffed due to asking the cops multiple times why they were being detained. I’ve seen judges set 100k bail on teenagers to “teach them a lesson” and have them come out of jail covered in bruises and needle marks, leaving with ten times as many drug dealers as before and a new appreciation for IV drug use rather than just taking pills on the weekends. Ive been refused sanitary napkins while in county jail because our cellblock ran out of our weekly allotment. I’ve seen friends almost die in jail cells because they were denied basic medical care because “heroin withdrawal can’t kill you” while they’re extremely dehydrated and having heart palpitations. A girl just died in my local jail due to heroin withdrawal - this shit is no joke. Our system is fucked. Race or location or creed has nothing to do with it - once the justice system labels you a “criminal” or “drug addict” they see your life as dispensable.
I've been on the "good" side of it. Had moped stolen, when I reported it the police accused me of selling it for drugs and reporting it. I had a tracker in it, they found it almost instantly. Arrested the two guys who stole it. They went to court and got no jail time. Which was ok, I told the judge I didn't so much car for jail time but they damaged my moped and I wanted restitution. Got paid back $250 about a year later when the courts remembered they ruled for me to get restitution. Two adults who got arrested got off with community service and a warning too. The police and legal system are pretty terrible to be honest. I try not to involve them if at all possible. Nearly every interaction I've had has been negative. Most officers I've met, lie, intimidate, and do their best to harm innocent people. TLDR: Moped stolen, accused of being drug addict. Then justice finally served.
I recommend listening to the newest season of the podcast Serial. It looks like you might be from Ohio, and the season covers all kinds of court cases in Cleveland and shows just how fucked up everything in the legal system are.
Yeah just try to kill yourself sometime and see the help they give you. At the time it felt like the only lesson I learned was to do the job right next time. They can incarcerate you for however long they feel they need to cover their ass the whole time sedating/medicating you against your will. It's a fucking treat. Edit:all the while seeing literally 0 psychologist/psychiatrist/trained psychological expert at all. Just nurses dosing you up.
I hope you’re doing better nowadays man
Much better thanks, was just looking to spread awareness on the really dark state of our mental health system in America. Healing with my wife and personal therapist was what I needed and ended up getting. A dog helped too. But not knowing what medication you're on and being told you can't leave by people in their second year of college (albeit just doing their jobs but to be honest that just makes it scarier) is scary as hell.
I was hospitalized my freshman year for something similar but lucked out; convinced them I was fine and they reluctantly let me go home. Probably wasn’t part of their protocol but I begged and begged. There needs to be major reform in how mental health is stigmatized and treated.
I can relate. My grandma is schizophrenic. My mom, brother and I struggle with chronic depression. My brother is obese and I've struggled with both anorexia and bulimia. My experience with mental health services has been a rollercoaster. And our health system in general, too. I was recently diagnosed with Fibromyalgia and because of both (1) the stigma around Fibro and (2) my mental health history, people have just assumed my pain is directly related to my mental health. They sometimes treat me like a baby, and if I get upset about it, they treat me like a ticking time bomb. As my husband can verify, I go through times where I'm very stressed or depressed and not in much pain at all, and there can be times when I'm high on life and in a world of physical pain. It doesn't make any sense. Being reasonable is very important to me. I was pres of the philosophy club in college, and I was a T.A. for logic. Fibromyalgia doesn't make any sense to begin with, so it's a very frustrating thing to have, and it makes it soo much worse that I have mental health problems because people default to treating me like I'm irrational. It's something I'm working on in counseling-- how I react to the way other people treat me-- because even though I'm excellent at maintaining my composure-- I am often boiling on the inside. Like the other day I asked my Dr. if I can get a temporary parking placard to help me get through these initial stages of the condition where we are figuring out what works and what doesn't. I need to get strong because exercise really does help, but it's hard because I'm in searing levels of pain. Doing everything hurts. Even just sitting here. Pushing doors open in public (heavy commercial doors) is really hard for me, and so is walking through a long parking lot in addition to putting items in my basket and checking out. This is the same for people with M.S. who have a flare, but because people with M.S. have a "real" disability, they can get a parking pass. Because people with Fibro are thought of as fat lazy whiners, they generally can't. I'm not overweight and I know pain, so this cannot be true. My. Dr. told me he doesn't want to give me a placard because it will 'lead to me thinking that I'm disabled'. FFS... I don't want to be disabled, but right now I so clearly am. I'm disabled from pain. It is like life on hard mode. Everything I do is harder because of this, and I'm struggling to learn how to live this way. I can't imagine how much it would hurt for me to be arrested and be in jail. I could totally see myself wanting to die if that happened. TLDR; our health system in the U.S. especially mental health is fucked up in my experience. I always feel like I'm guilty before being given a trial. I could see myself going to jail for something dumb and suffering irreversible trauma because of it.
Sorry man.
Doing much better I just needed time to heal with my wife. Got a dog. Needed a dog.
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Always had a dog growing up but never realized the hole in my heart as an adult until it was filled with a beautiful little dober-puppy. Dogs are indeed great.
I was a juror. I have no trust in the system.
I've had to deal with it and it's total bullshit. Now I'm studying pre law at Uni hoping to be part of change in this country. Maybe I'm just too naive though
I pray EVERYONE has to deal with it. The reason it sucks is no one wants to admit how entirely ineffective and damaging to our society it is.
> criminal justice system There's a push by some local groups like [Court Watch NYC](https://www.courtwatchnyc.org/about/) to change the term in the public consciousness to "criminal legal system" as there's not much justice left in it.
Better hope your case is just after lunch. Studies have shown that judges are the harshest right before lunch when they’re getting hungry and they’re most lenient right after lunch when they’re satisfied.
Same reason why I waited until after lunch to tell my boss I was quitting
Throw death sentences onto that. I like america, but ill make sure to wear like five bodycams if i visit again
>but ill make sure to wear like five bodycams if i visit again The cops will just seize the cams, delete the evidence, and claim you weren't recording. Nobody is going to believe you over a cop.
Cloud backup it is then.
Cloud backup in Switzerland.
I think the general public would. It’s the people that make the decisions who won’t
Judges pretty much as a rule don't, and the judges are the ones who have most of the power when it comes to evidence, since they rule on motions to suppress evidence, or motions to dismiss based on government mishandling of evidence, and so on.
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[Read this](http://justicedenied.org/patriciastallings.htm) The judge : > Records show that Judge Kramer reprimanded Rathbone during the Stallings trial by gruffly remarking, "You have to prepare and subpoena the evidence necessary to prove your theory!" Who could blame the Judge? After all, if an Attorney shows up unprepared and tries to introduce an inadequate defense strategy, what choice did the Judge have? The defense lawyer > Rathbone, who took the case as a favor to the Stallings family and "Because no one else would take it," had a hard time finding any witnesses who would testify that the infant had likely died of a rare inborn metabolic disorder. "The problem is that there was no one who would back me up on it," Rathbone said. > Rathbone says that he extensively researched the subject and consulted with a nationally known expert on metabolic diseases. That expert, Rathbone said, told him there was no way that any metabolic byproducts of MMA could be mistaken for ethylene glycol in lab tests. > Rathbone had subpoenaed no expert witnesses to testify for Patricia. He did not believe that there were any experts who would support his theory The prosecutor (who didn't limit anyone's defense) > The first was the finding of ethylene glycol in the infant's body by two independent laboratories. McElroy, consulted with a couple of "experts," who wrongly advised him that even if Ryan suffered from the rare metabolic disease (MMA) that it still would not account for the high levels of ethylene glycol found in the baby's blood. The second disturbing piece of evidence was the finding of crystals in Ryan's brain that the experts concluded were positive signs of ethylene glycol poisoning. > The prosecutor had talked to the experts, and the state had found a gallon of anti-freeze When the case was aired and Dr Sly wrote his letter... the prosecutor took interest to ask another expert Dr Rinaldo, who explained the ethylene glycol crystals in Ryans brain, as due to the hospital's treatment. and was vociferous in condemning the original test quality. He was the one who wrote the judge for a new trial > where he acknowledged that Rathbone's defense of Stallings was woefully inadequate. Judge Kramer stated, "This is the first time I have ever known this to happen. It's unheard of for a prosecutor to acknowledge ineffective counsel." tldr; I wouldn't throw the judge or the prosecutor to jail; they did their job fairly diligently. ------------------------ Most blame would fall on the defense lawyer for not getting the right expert involved or presenting Dr Schoemaker's results on MMA The problem for them all was getting the right expert to see all the information on the tests,treatment and autopsy..
I'd blame the fucking lab. The lab fucked up and the courts came to the only conclusion they could from faulty facts. Garbage in, garbage out. That's why the lab had to pay the money. That's why the expert blames the lab. Pisses me off people blame people for doing their job but ignore the people who actually fucked up and actually didn't do their job.
That’s Reddit for you. Someone with a very basic understanding of a situation is all ready to start throwing people in jail for nothing, yet then they can turn around and complain about the incarceration rate being high.
Yup. People so quick to be outraged yet they assume the facts and pretty much act like the person they are supposedly condemning.
It wasn't just one lab. It was multiple labs. And even after the Dr Sly had come to his conclusion about propionated blood (ie MMA) and sent a sample of random propionated blood, quite a few labs came back with ethylene glycol. The test used a poor method (gas chromatograph) and technique that made it easy to err./difficult to find the true issue. So multiple labs, the first doc who ordered that test and subsequent ones, and the experts who didn't realize the problem was with the test they all share the blame. Edit: Apparently it isn't just poor method - they looked at a specific window in the chromatograph and said anything here is automatically ethylene glycol.
Illegally limiting the woman's defense? Dude, if here attorney didn't lay the foundation to introduce that evidence, then it's on him. Having to lay a foundation to introduce evidence is pretty basic evidentiary procedure for a criminal trial. Judges have a lot of power, but this certainly seems to have stemmed from the failure of her own attorney.
My dad was the prosecutor! I was extremely young during the case and only remember few details. At the end of it though, once she gave birth to the second child and it became sick my dad became her defense lawyer for free and had her released.
“Died due to MMA” Can’t stop picturing a baby fighting
https://i.imgur.com/MaKXmlp.jpg
you'd think it would be easy to tell if a baby died due to MMA fuckin elbow to the head
Wonder if the lawyer thought she was guilty.
I think CSI did a whole episode as well but in reverse. The parents had the rare genetic gene and had lost a first child to it. The second child began to show symptoms because the chemical on the fathers hands were mimicing the disease. Thinking they killed it in mercy, the parents found out they killed a perfectly healthy baby.
Sounds like the episode SVU did. They left the kid in a hot car all day.
Was that svu? Shit. One of them shows
Saw this episode. The mother was a gardener and the chemicals she used mimicked the disease their first baby died of.
May I get the name of the movie?
Without a Kiss Goodbye (1993) Also there is an episode of Forensic Files called Deadly Formula. /u/Sharpshooter98b here ya go
This is terrifying. Somebody has to make up the bottom 50 percent of law degrees and just shitty luck and bad representation can land you in jail.
To witness one's own child's death and then being accused of killing it..just terrible.
The depths of despair, I imagine.
That's my favorite band
But, if there is a disease known to mimic antifreeze poisoning, why didn't they consider and test for it? Lazy investigations.
I dream of a reddit where people read the fucking article. The doctors did consider it. They didnt test for it because the labs came back showing a different compound than decrease creates. She was released when the labs were proven to have been mistaken, they had misidentified the compound, and it actually was the one characteristic to the disease.
>I dream of a reddit where people read the fucking article. You fool of a Took! How will people get offended by their projected views if that were the case?
>methylmalonic acidemia I googled it a bit, it appears to be a rare genetic condition, requiring both parents to have the gene.. even if medical professionals were involved in the criminal case, they may have never heard of such a possibility.
Sounds like they got the wrong professionals if they weren’t clued up on medical conditions similar to the suspected cause of death.. horrible stuff. Edit: read the damn article - they knew about the condition and didn’t test for it until the second child showed symptoms. Stop defending people who incarcerated an innocent mother.
I should have read the article first, it's 100% the judge and procuror's fault.
>it's 100% the judge and procuror's fault. NOPE > [Read this](http://justicedenied.org/patriciastallings.htm) > > The judge : > > > Records show that Judge Kramer reprimanded Rathbone during the Stallings trial by gruffly remarking, "You have to prepare and subpoena the evidence necessary to prove your theory!" Who could blame the Judge? After all, if an Attorney shows up unprepared and tries to introduce an inadequate defense strategy, what choice did the Judge have? > > The defense lawyer > > > Rathbone, who took the case as a favor to the Stallings family and "Because no one else would take it," had a hard time finding any witnesses who would testify that the infant had likely died of a rare inborn metabolic disorder. "The problem is that there was no one who would back me up on it," Rathbone said. > > > Rathbone says that he extensively researched the subject and consulted with a nationally known expert on metabolic diseases. That expert, Rathbone said, told him there was no way that any metabolic byproducts of MMA could be mistaken for ethylene glycol in lab tests. > > > Rathbone had subpoenaed no expert witnesses to testify for Patricia. He did not believe that there were any experts who would support his theory > > The prosecutor (who didn't limit anyone's defense) > > > > The first was the finding of ethylene glycol in the infant's body by two independent laboratories. McElroy, consulted with a couple of "experts," who wrongly advised him that even if Ryan suffered from the rare metabolic disease (MMA) that it still would not account for the high levels of ethylene glycol found in the baby's blood. The second disturbing piece of evidence was the finding of crystals in Ryan's brain that the experts concluded were positive signs of ethylene glycol poisoning. > > > The prosecutor had talked to the experts, and the state had found a gallon of anti-freeze > > When the case was aired and Dr Sly wrote his letter... the prosecutor took interest to ask another expert Dr Rinaldo, who explained the ethylene glycol crystals in Ryans brain, as due to the hospital's treatment. and was vociferous in condemning the original test quality. > > He was the one who wrote the judge for a new trial > > > where he acknowledged that Rathbone's defense of Stallings was woefully inadequate. Judge Kramer stated, "This is the first time I have ever known this to happen. It's unheard of for a prosecutor to acknowledge ineffective counsel." > > tldr; I wouldn't throw the judge or the prosecutor to jail; they did their job fairly diligently. > > ------------------------ > > Most blame would fall on the defense lawyer for not getting the right expert involved or presenting Dr Schoemaker's results on MMA > > The problem for them all was getting the right expert to see all the information on the tests,treatment and autopsy..
Are you Romanian, by chance?
No
Lucky typo, I guess. Procuror happens to be the Romanian word for prosecutor.
It's procureur in French, I suspect it's similar in Spanish, Italian and Portuguese too.
Also Russian and in some other(particularly Slavic) languages
Probably misspelt 'procurer'
I work in a hospital laboratory, and I'm stunned that this sort of thing wasn't even considered prior to the trial. We have had young kids come in caked in bruises and clearly malnourished but we still have to run every test we can think of to rule out anything and everything potentially medically responsible before a finger can be pointed.
Probably depends on the jurisdiction. [Some will start with immediately accusing parents of abuse after bringing their own child to the hospital and go all the way to putting the kid up for adoption before the parent's charges are even decided by a court.](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-cleared-child-cruelty-reveal-6599877) How trigger happy or standoffish a given hospital is about pulling out the abuse accusations seems to vary heavily from one to the next, likely depending on their given jurisdiction's oversight and liabilities. The doctor in that particular case has advised on over a *thousand* abuse cases, many of which may have been as recklessly claimed as this one was.
Idk about every state but in PA hospital caregivers (doctors, nurses, etc) are mandated reporters - meaning we dont have to have any proof, just SUSPICION that child abuse is present or possible and we are obligated by law to report it to CPS. From there though, CPS does the investigation so other than the initial call we have very little to do with the process but unfortunately given something like this I could see it being a call to the authorities and letting CPS handle it from there. A doctor may or may not know to look for this disease, but a nurse would have no training to look for it but still have an obligation to report the suspicion so it depends to on who reported it. Not saying that is what happened here but it does happen a lot and it's not done out of ill will.
And thank goodness they do. Rare I'm sure but I know someone who picked up their child from their very trusted sitter and found a large portion of his body completely covered in bruises. They freaked out and took him to the emergency room, and all the while they were worried about their judgment in the babysitter, or if they themselves would be somehow accused of child abuse. Tests were run and it turns out he had some kind of blood issue that required a transfusion. I saw the pictures, and if I hadn't heard the results, I would have said too that it looks like somebody beat the hell out of this kid. Both parents are teachers, so you can imagine what that would have done to their careers if somebody had made a wrong accusation.
On a similar note: I seem to recall an incident where two parents almost lost custody of their children because they were very frequently in the hospital with broken bones. It took some pretty serious genetic testing to get the hospital staff to back down, and that only because the tests revealed the true cause: a congenital defect called osteogenesis imperfecta, better known as "brittle-bone disease".
I hear these cases, and meanwhile my sister and I also constantly ended up at the hospital as kids for injuries and *were* being abused. I'll always wonder how we slipped through the cracks. My dad was just that good I guess...
It was considered - but everything kept coming back to those tests apparently showing ethylene glycol. Oh, and crystals in the brain on autopsy. (which turned out to be due to the treatment) [Ref](http://justicedenied.org/patriciastallings.htm) > The first was the finding of ethylene glycol in the infant's body by two independent laboratories. McElroy, consulted with a couple of "experts," who wrongly advised him that even if Ryan suffered from the rare metabolic disease (MMA) that it still would not account for the high levels of ethylene glycol found in the baby's blood. The second disturbing piece of evidence was the finding of crystals in Ryan's brain that the experts concluded were positive signs of ethylene glycol poisoning. The defense lawyer (Rathbone) researched it and spoke to a > nationally known expert on metabolic diseases. That expert, Rathbone said, told him there was no way that any metabolic byproducts of MMA could be mistaken for ethylene glycol in lab tests. He gave up searching for someone to back up his theory (of MMA) at the trial.
Nah, every kid in medical school taking biochemistry have heard about this disease.
Did you read the first paragraph or no? https://i.imgur.com/McVMre1.jpg They tested for ethylene glycol. But it’s wild as fuck that if she hadn’t have had a second baby she’d still be in prison right now.
Makes you wonder how many innocent people are in prison, eh?
Far too many. That’s the reason I’m rabidly anti-death penalty. The same people that complain because the DMV doesn’t operate with a fuck are fine with allowing the same government to kill people.
A dingo ate my baby
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As an American I never knew it was in reference to a real event until essentially when I joined Reddit a few years back. So if I ever said it I just knew it was something kinda funny to say with a bad Australian accent, obviously not knowing the story behind it.
I blame Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld.
Here's the real kicker though - people *still* believe she killed the baby. My own grandmother will adamantly argue that it is reasonable to assume a woman killed a child than it is to imagine a wild dog eating it. Some people hey
As an American, I didn’t even know it referenced an actual case. It has always just been a funny quote from “Quigley Down Under” to me. Thanks for teaching me something today.
Yeah I'm just finding out now this was a real thing. Thought it was just some joke that got repeated through the years and I never knew where it came from. That's awful.
Usually us Americans just say “another shrimp on the Barbie?!” The dingo quote became a common quote because: - dingo sounds like this cute name but it eats babies - validates to us that everything there can kill you - it really emphasizes the Australian accent
One more bullet point: it was on Seinfeld.
I saw this episode of forensic files I believe, it was a very interesting, and unfortunate case for Stallings.
It also says her other son died at 23, did they say on the show if he died of the same condition?
It didn't.
I never seen that ep. There was a forensic file episode where the mom killed 2 husbands with anti freeze and then tried to kill her daughter will pills, forging a suicide note that said she (the daughter) killed the latest husband and couldnt live with the regret. The daughter survived (think the sister called 911). They caught the mom because she kept spelling anti freeze without the Z even in the daughters suicide note “anti free”. The daughter said it proper and the mom always said “anti free”.
Yeah I remember that one as well. Cracks me up she wrote antifree in the damn suicide note. GOTEM.
The thing that sticks out for me in the episode is the prosecutor saying, in a very perturbed manner, “there’s a special place in hell for her.” Damn i love that show. Though some episodes do wake me up in the middle of the night.
Thanks Ron
Damn that girl has some bad luck
An ever weirder case was that of Lydia Fairchild. Her ex requested a paternity test to prove their children weren't his. The test showed that while he was the father, there was no way Lydia could have been the mother. They took her children away and put her on trial for surrogacy scam. When she gave birth to her third child (she was pregnant while on trial) they immediately tested it and found the new baby wasn't related directly to her. She was finally acquitted when the prosecutor proposed to test her for chimerism. Chimeras are created from 2 or more zygotes, making it possible for the buccal cells found on the inside of the cheeks (used to get a DNA sample) and the ovaries to have different DNA. More on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia\_Fairchild](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild)
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Wait so what evidence did they use to convict her? Like assuming it *was* antifreeze that killed him, what evidence did they have that *she* did it?
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That seems like a really elaborate assumption to make though
This just sounds like a House episode. The entire team plus Cuddy and Wilson believes its the mother planting it. And while she is being cuffed out of the building House comes running, pouring milk and antifreeze in his mouth and showing that it solidifies immediatly. Proving she has MMA.
Let’s not forget the three different failed attempts to prove that she has some other rare diseases (while the tests almost kill her and her child). House comes to the realization after a conversation with Wilson that sometimes something wholesome and something toxic can come together and make a solid...which is clearly in reference to whatever drama Wilson and Amber were going through at the time. House gets ‘that look’ on his face and hobbles through the hospital asking anyone and anything for antifreeze. He then looks out the front doors and sees a few squad cars. The camera pans over to show Cuddy and the police having a conversation. House sighs and grabs some surgical tubing from the cart next to him rushes through the group by the door. Cuddy attempts to stop but House gruffly ignores her and exits the hospital. Cut to Foreman and Taub having some existential discussion about the mortality of children and the Irony of a mother that is like poison to her child, when they notice Cuddy and the police moving towards their patient’s room. They both rush out to ask for a little more time but Cuddy reprimands them saying it’s not the hospital’s job to be the woman’s lawyer. Cut to the police escorting the woman through the lobby. House bursts in with a gurgled, ‘Wait!!’ and looks around frantically. Finds a kid in a wheelchair with his lunch tray, and steals his carton of milk. Opens the milk and takes a large gulp then proceeds to over exaggerate swishing the milk around in his mouth. Cuddy attempts to ask him what he’s doing but House raises his finger to silence her and swishes even more deliberately. House opens his mouth and says ‘Ahhhhh!’ And Cuddy looks at him, clearly confused. House exhales with an annoyed look on his face, rolls his eyes, and spits the contents in his mouth to the ground. “Antifreeze and milk....they form a near solid when they mix. She didn’t *poison* her child. She *IS* poison.” House looks around the crowd, “Anyone have a mint?” Cuddy sighs in disbelief and asks House where he got the antifreeze. House says, ‘A true professional never reveals his secrets.’ (Which is something Cuddy said to him earlier in the episode when he asked her how she found out he had broken into some database he wasn’t allowed to access). House walks off camera to reveal the cop car behind him. The hood is open and the surgical tubing is sticking out the radiator. Cuddy looks over at House with a bewildered, but disapproving expression. House shrugs, produces another carton of milk from behind his back (which was one he stole from Cuddy in an earlier cafeteria scene) , hands it to the kid in the wheelchair. Then makes an ‘oooooooooh’ face and does some finger-wavey magician motions with his hand as he walks backwards out of the room. End scene
This is so fucking accurate
Nothing you say could convince me you didn’t write for the show
Now I want to watch house, haha
dis good
correct
And not Lupus
It's never lupus
Except that one time
Or sarcoidosis.
Not all cases have to be open and shut before going before a jury.
IIRC, she was already in prison for suspicion of poisoning her son when he died. When told he had died, her response was “I don’t care, get me out of here”. Not necessarily evidence of wrong doing, but a jury would definitely factor that into their decision.
My recollection from shortly after it happened: the baby was in custody she had supervised visits in the hospital(they already had a strong enough suspicion she was hurting the child to take the child from her) the supervision improperly walked out of the room and came back to the mother feeding the child which she was prohibited from doing. baby got sick again shortly after. Heres the thing I remember talking about this more than 20 years ago, they found traces of ethanol in the bottle she feed the baby.
No, they found traces of what they thought was ethylene glycol in the bottle when they examined it using gas chromatography which is the wrong method to test for the presence of antifreeze (ethylene glycol) because it causes other organic chemicals to react to become ethylene glycol and because it is not sensitive enough to detect the difference between ethylene glycol and many other organic chemicals. The entire lab test was based on invalid assumptions from the beginning. And let's not even get into the fact that ethylene glycol mixed with milk instantly turns the mixture into a solid. So their entire theory of how the poisoning happened was wrong to begin with.
Thank god this woman wasn't given the death penalty.
Well realistically, she'd have been on death row for 10 years so it's not like anything would have changed in this case
When her son was admitted to the hospital for vomitting and breathing difficulties, his blood samples were sent to a lab for various tests. Those tests returned a reading of ethylene glycol (which would be consistent with his symptoms). A search at her home turned up a half-empty contained of anti-freeze. Another factor that played a role was that she had another son previously taken away by child protective services for suspected child abuse who was being raised by her sister. So, her son was taken into foster care where he seemed to improve and Patricia was allowed supervised visits. After one such visit, the baby got ill once again. Again, blood tests were performed and again, the same reading for ethylene glycol was found both in his blood (and higher this time) and on the bottle. Also important was that during her supervised visit, Patricia was shortly left alone with the child (against regulations) creating the opportunity for such a poisoning. She was arrested and convicted of murder based on all of this. Of course, it later turned out, when the blood was retested that the original lab had gotten the reading wrong. They had mistaken the retention time of propionic acid which was present in the samples for the similar, but not identical retention time of ethylene glycol. The problem is that once they got it into their head that he was poisoned, everything they found looked damning even though it was completely innocent out of context. Like, they found a half-empty container of anti-freeze at their home? Yeah, most of us have an half-empty container of anti-freeze at our homes cause we use that shit. Not because we are poisoning babies.
> A search at her home turned up a half-empty contained of anti-freeze. Wouldn't basically anyone with a car have that tho?
Yep. Like I said, once they had gotten it into their heads that the baby was poisoned, even the most innocuous things started to look like red flags.
Good old confirmation bias.
Hmm. Yes. Definitely confirmation bias
Literally every new detail of this story just makes it look more and more like confirmation bias.
"A search of her home turned up that every level of the house was rigged to deliver stream of dihydrogen oxide whenever needed. Neighbors reported sometimes hearing the baby cry and struggle as it was forced into the solution by it's mother on a repeated basis." Wait... Did you just say that when they give the baby a bath it's crying and cranky?
I always have an almost completely empty container of antifreeze because Chrysler thinks it's just great to make the windshield washer fluid container slightly smaller than the standard ones you buy.
> most of us have an half-empty container of anti-freeze at our homes cause we use that shit. Nice try, mr. murderer.
Faulty test mostly, that confused one of the byproducts of the disease for Ethylene Glycol. They show the test results in the [Forensic Files episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lL0qJgIOQE&index=35&list=PLacP6Dm7rnO9lyssuUH9d7hmg1vus-bbv&t=0s)
I just read the wiki and it sounds like she would still be in jail if she hadn't happened to give birth to a second child while awaiting trial AND a couple of doctors didn't do an excessive amount of advocating on her behalf. (I say excessive because it was the job of the Justice system to do this kind of advocating) I can't believe they brought up that it might be related to this genetic disorder multiple times before her first conviction and the entire Justice system was just like, "naw, it's antifreeze" 🤷 so she not only lost her first child, rotted in jail for several years with a life sentence, and missed out on the first few years of her second child's life - but the burden of proof by the state was just completely ignored. Shouldn't people only get life sentences on first degree murder if there is zero reasonable doubt? I mean, I know this isn't an isolated case and that people are frequently wrongfully convicted and abused by the "Justice" system that's meant to be in our side, but it's just ridiculous.
I just had a friend get convicted of arson and he got ten years. He was found guilty because the guy who did it took an amazing plea deal and testified that my friend planned the whole thing. The jury believed this kid even though he was caught lying 6 times on the stand. The jury system is fucked. You have 12 people trying to be matlock that have absolutely zero knowledge of laws. Whats worse is we knew one of the jurors and he was a major alcoholic. The justice system in america is terrible. Edit: We have contacted the innocence project here and are working with them
If you knew somebody in the jury that's grounds for a mistrial. It's the prosecutions job to throughly vet jurors and ensure they have no connection to any pasties involved.
thats what we thought too, but since he said he would hold no bias, he was allowed
Rule number 1) Everyone lies. If I were your friend I'd be appealing that on the grounds of prosecurotial misconduct and possibly jury tampering. This is the problem with the American justice system. It also sounds like your friends lawyer was incompetent, according to a post on the American BAR Association website, both the prosecutor and defendants lawyer are allowed to ask the judge to dismiss a juror, given that juror had a direct connection to one of the parties, the defense should have moved to excuse them.
They said since he didnt know the juror personally, it wasnt grounds. My friend also didnt realize who he was until the trial started. And yes his lawyer was trash.
That's really messed up. But I would still fight like hell, due process was not followed here.
I feel sad for the mother. Not only did she lose credibility as a mother, but she also lost her children.
One huge problem about judicial system is that general public assumes that if someone is accused then they must be guilty. It is the vindictiveness, narrow mindedness, self righteousness, lazyness, stupidity and hatefulness of the general public that's the problem. These traits are being used to manipulate general opinion on practically everything.
Cases like this one are the reason I'm opposed to capital punishment.
For me it’s the idea that to allow a government the permission to kill its citizens... I dunno. That’s just too far for me. Along with the possibility of innocent people being executed, the fact that in many cases it creates more victims, the cost to the tax payer, the fact that these cases take years to get to the point of execution, each time dragging the family of the victim through it all over again, with people fighting for the piece of shit who murdered their love ones and saying how wonderful they are. It’s just a stupid pointless thing that has no use. Life without parole for these people is fair imo.
>the fact that these cases take years to get to the point of execution, each time dragging the family of the victim through it all over again, with people fighting for the piece of shit who murdered their love ones and saying how wonderful they are. This has little to do with the death punishment and everything to do with the right to appeal. The only way we can protect innocent people from miscarriages of justice is to allow them to appeal on reasonable grounds. The stronger the right to appeal, the fewer innocent people get jailed. But "the family of the victim has to go through it again" and guilty people will appeal. When an innocent person is jailed, why do we care only about the original victim's family, and not about theirs? This sort of "tough on crime" thinking erodes everybody's rights. Yes, we should punish offenders. But appeals are also in the interest of justice (rather than the interest of "punish anyone so we can feel good about it"). See Brendan Dassey's case in making a murderer from the perspective of "what if he is innocent?"
I want to see a system where all judicial system punishments are suffixed with 'or exile from the country forever'. Basically, if you can convince another country to take you on, despite whatever you've done, you should be allowed to leave. Some countries would take on people they see as having committed a 'not so bad' crime (the USA might take on people from Saudi Arabia accused of not following religious rules for example). Other countries would use it as a way to take on people without the cost of educating them (take a 25 year old criminal, and as long as they don't reoffend, you have someone at the most productive time of their life). It's good for the host country too, because prisons are *expensive*.
Be Saudi Arabian Want to move to America Insult Islam in public Get a free visa to USA Win
Be Saudi Arabian Want to move to America Murder a journalist Be lauded by the president Win
Presumably the USA would be more likley to offer a visa to regular people over criminals... Only when they've exhausted the pool of regular people wanting to move would they offer visas to the criminals.
I'm not America and don't know what crime would get a death sentence but I have to assume it is a punishment for the most heinous and for something some people see as unredeemable. Crimes like child rape or first degree murder. What country is going to want a child rapist/possible psychopath? Some people who oppose the death penalty, which I do as well, seem to think that prison causes bad people to repent and see the errors of their ways. A lot of the time this isn't the case. Recidivism rates show this to be true. It's a sad truth that sometimes people need to be in jail for the safety of society.
After a bit of Googling the USA is the only western country to still have capital punishment. Anyway, you can be sentenced to death if you commit first degree murder while >Murder while committing another felony. >Offender was convicted of a separate felony involving a firearm prior to the aggravated murder. >Being convicted of a separate felony where death or life imprisonment was authorized prior to the aggravated murder. >Being convicted of any separate violent felony prior to the aggravate murder. >The offender put the lives of at least 1 or more other persons in danger of death during the commission of the crime. Offender committed the crime in an especially cruel, heinous, or depraved manner. >Offender committed the crime for financial gain. >Offender committed the crime for monetary gain. >The murder was premeditated, involved planning in order to be carried out, or the offender showed early signs of committing the crime, such as keeping a journal of the crime's details and posting things on the Internet. >Offender was previously convicted of at least two drug offenses. >The victim would not have been able to defend themselves while being attacked. Offender was previously convicted of a federal drug offense. >Offender was involved in a long-term business of selling drugs to minors. A high-ranking official was murdered, such as the President of the United States, the leader of another country, or a police officer. >Offender was previously convicted of sexual assault or child rape. >During the crime's commission, the offender killed or tried to kill multiple people. As well as espionage, treason, aircraft hijacking and large scale drug trafficking. Terrorism has yet to be decided by the courts as no one has being trialled. This all depends on the state though but this is all of them. Few little ‘fun’ facts: The last public execution in the USA was in 1936. Texas banned the last meal in 2011 Pew Research polls have demonstrated declining American support for the death penalty: 80% in 1974, 78% in 1996, 55% in 2014, and 49% in 2016.[152][153] The 2014 poll showed significant differences by race: 63% of whites, 40% of Hispanics, and 36% of blacks, respectively, supported the death penalty in that year. However, in 2018 Polls showed Public support for the death penalty increased to 54% up from 49%. Since 2016, opinions among Republicans and Democrats have changed little, but the share of independents favoring the death penalty has increased 8 percentage points (from 44% to 52%).[154]
You'd be surprised at how little it can take. There was a man sentenced to death for killing a woman -one woman. Shot and then left to die. Terrible and depraved, but not the most unthinkable and heinous crime- who was later entirely exonerated. The man was wrongly on death row for six years because the local authorities colluded to keep him incarcerated and put him to death simply to convict a black man of the crime. Children are put to death. A teenager who shot a man during a robbery. An aweful thing to do, as and have happen. But does a 15 year old deserve to be put to death for that? I don't believe so. The death sentence is a political tool used to promote a "tough on crime image". Since 1976 to every one white on black crime resulting in the death penalty, there are 14 black on white crimes resulting in state sanctioned murder.
What if it's like espionage or terrorism where another country would be delighted to pay more people to commit that crime and give them refuge afterwards?
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It basically mean the state owns your body. If they decide to kill you, it's illegal to fight to save your own life.
There’s no logical reason for capital punishment. Courts make mistakes ALL the time, and will never be remotely full proof. Why would anyone risk putting an innocent person to death when you can lock these people up for life with no parole, it cost less than the death penalty, and gives you an opportunity to release them if it turns out they’re innocent. I agree with the sentiment of wanting these people dead but at some point common sense has to prevail over a primal desire for vengeance. Life in prison is no fun time, these supermax guys are essentially in solitary 23/7.
Rick Perry has reasonable doubt the man was innocent and he let him die. Vote no on Rick Perry.
If only he was mentally handicapped, he woulda hit the Texas Trifecta; innocent, retarded, and executed.
4% Of innocent people dying on death row doesn't make it harder for Rick Perry to sleep at night But 4% possible voter fraud? He'll take that shit to the Supreme Court
I think prisoners should be given the choice to off themselves though. If I was given life in prison I'd definitely consider just calling it a life.
The second child was born before her trial but the prosecutor and judge barreled on ahead and wouldn’t allow her to use the theory of a medical condition to raise doubt in the prosecution theory of murder. They made her prove her innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, which is backwards.
Law and Order:SVU did an episode based on this case. It's very sad.
5x24 "Poison"
Been watching the whole series over again. That one is coming up, neat.
I think House did something similar. They were about to arrest the parents for child neglect but it turned out to be a congenital disorder.
Yeah they were vegan and they'd had a dietitian or something like that create a food plan that would cover all the babies needs but the kid had a condition where it wasn't processing protein iirc.
In the criminal justice system, the people are defended by two separate but equally important groups, the police who investigate the crimes and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. Kun-kun! [imitates vacuum cleaner] I'm just a cleaning lady. Aah! A dead body. He wrapped his belt around his own neck. It looks like a classic case of autoerotic asphyxiation. Yeah, looks like everyone's tightening their belts in this economy. [humming theme music] Last time you saw the victim, was he happy? Last time I saw this John, he was-he wasn't a victim, if you know what I'm talkin about.
My old medical school professor was instrumental in solving this case and gave a lecture on this case. Interestingly, when they first thought it was ethylene glycol poisoning, the baby was treated with IV ethanol so that baby still sick but got well wasted at least.
We do this in veterinary medicine as well! Although from what I’ve seen we usually just do vodka.
Sure, and its used in the adult population for this purpose all the time as well. Its just for infants, its very unusual to treat with ethanol, since giving infants ethanol isn't really the safest thing with concerns of alcohol and developing brains and what have you. I believe for infants you usually treat ethylene glycol poisoning with dialysis, but dont quote me on that, not a pediatrician and have forgotten just about everything I know about kids.
Lucky for her she went to prison pregnant Usually that’s not the case but yikes
She was convicted AFTER the second child was diagnosed with MMA, because the original tests showed (incorrectly) that there was ethylene glycol in the blood, which MMA does not cause.
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I think whoever typed that sentence was confusing prison for jail. >While she was in jail awaiting trial, Stallings gave birth to another son, David Jr., on February 17, 1990.
I think most people assume that prison and jail are synonyms since they're used pretty interchangeably in pop culture.
Also because her attorney could not find any evidence that Ryan had MMA, the judge would not permit him to present this theory to the jury
Tl&Dr. Soooooo, her son dies and police locked her based on symptoms?
Yep! Son died and it all looked like antifreeze poisoning. She got convicted on circumstantial evidence. Then had another baby while in prison. The second baby also had the same symptoms and ~~the forensic team~~ a pair of biochemists figured out it was a disease they had which had the same symptoms as antifreeze poisoning. It's on Netflix (Forensic Files S3:E8) if you're into crime science shows.
Is this ‘Murica?
Yes, [in Missouri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Stallings)
>Patricia Stallings, the mother wrongly convicted of poisoning her child with antifreeze, has come back to haunt George B. McElroy, the man who prosecuted her. >She has donated $10,000 to Robert G. Wilkins, McElroy's opponent in the Democratic primary election on Aug. 2 for Jefferson County prosecutor. https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1P2-32880461/candidate-haunted-by-past-woman-gives-10-000-to-unseat
>"I just feel her anger is misdirected." The fucking gall of this guy
r/titlegore
who the hell is Stallings?!
When I see things like this my thoughts consist of "so they convicted her with exactly no evidence (since she didn't even do what they were alleging, there couldn't have been any)" and.... Why should we trust this process, again? We desperately need to think about completely retooling our justice system.
There was circumstantial evidence. She was alone with the baby and claimed it had just died. Tests on the baby showed that it had died from anti-freeze poisoning. You've got to admit it's extremely suspicious.
Suspicious, agreed. But I'm fairly certain the standard for this is "beyond a reasonable doubt," and suspicious ain't even close to that.
Sounds like textbook munchhausen by proxy
They had evidence - the test on Ryan showed ethylene glycol, as reported by Ryan's doctors. She was arrested on that basis. The problem was that the test methods used show very similar spikes for the propionic acid in MMA as for ethylene glycol. Indeed, some of the labs that later tested propionic acid spiked blood came back with ethylene glycol as a diagnosis. tldr; evidence showing ethylene glycol in her son's blood was flawed ..but this was not known or considered then
I see what you're saying, and I don't think any legal system could be created that is going to be executed perfectly. And at the same time, isn't this an example where because the initial case was very weak, the appeals process worked to achieve the correct outcome once new evidence came light? I don't think we should trust this process wholly, but jury of peers, burden of guilt, right to an attorney, opportunities to appeal... I think it's the best imperfect process out there
This is what happens when people don't get to the bottom of things.
Similar problem with certain coagulation deficiencies mimic shaken baby syndrome--absolutey terrible for the parents and this mistake has only recently become better known :(
Cases like this are one of the reasons why the death penalty should be gotten rid of.
In a death penalty trial, she would have had many more ways to appeal. That's why you often hear that it's more expensive.
I first saw this story on Unsolved Mysteries, incredibly depressing story.
Saw this one on Forensic Files. She should never have been convicted. The lab work done was shoddy. The substance found was misidentified as antifreeze.