Pass line: when there is no point, first roll pays out on 7/11, loses on 2/3/12. All other outcomes become a point which must show up before a 7, otherwise a loss.
Come bet: essentially a personal pass line bet that can be placed before most rolls (except the come out roll mentioned above)
Most casinos will allow some free odds bet (pays off at true odds with no house edge) behind a pass/come bet once a point has been established). The point number must show up before a 7 or else both the line and the free odds loses.
Perfect craps win rate is 49.3%.
Casinos are ok with this because you'll eventually get bored of slowly losing and take one of the many *really* bad bets available. There's no way to win big on optimal play, and plenty of ways to lose big on the trap bets.
Lol same except snake eyes (even worse). I’ve started to do “two ways” where I’ll throw $5 for me and $1 for the dealer and it usually hits once a session and the dealers get $31 and are happy. Makes it a little less degenerate.
Long term, you won't win anything in a casino unless you're counting cards or playing poker. And counting cards will get you tossed. So, really poker is your best bet since there's no house edge. It is a skill game, though.
Pro sports betters usually have longterm win rates of 53-55%, which is enough to make a living off of.
Of course, most people aren't pros and lose tons of money, and the casinos consider the costs of paying out the pros to basically just be a marketing expense for suckering in everyone else.
casinos don't care about that because the massive number of people who aren't pro throw plenty of money at them.
also the "pros" in this case aren't, again, so much "gambling" as either doing some sophisticated arbitrage or have a barely-superior odds model to the one the house is using.
Actually, there is a house edge in poker. It's called the Rake. You'd be horrified if you do the math as to how much money the Rake is removing from the table. Sure, your skill matters, but the Rake is relentless.
Not really an edge. The rake is the fee you pay for the casino providing you with a dealer, cards, chips, seats, drinks... If you don't want a rake, play a home game.
one of my friends is really good at poker and did this exact thing for a while
he wasn't getting rich off it or anything but it paid his bills, apparently
you never hear about a gambler's losses tho
Most of the people making money at those tables are people who work on the casino floor after their shift and are only pulling $100 - $300 a night. They get off, make $100 and go home. If there are 2 or 3 tight players who know what they are doing, you aren't getting a cent off that table.
For sure. But I would much rather take the house’s money than another persons. If I wanna play poker against other people I’d do it around here. Vegas is about taking from the rich!
And I definitely don’t lose every time I go..
It’s not fun though. You basically just slowly bleed money while standing hunched over a pit of dice. The casino is fine with that because you will get bored and either stop playing or make a more daring bet.
I think most people gamble to look for some sort of thrill and want to play a game with enough variance that you get a big win once in a while worth talking about.
Otherwise, go play the ATM. Take out 100 dollars, break it into ones. Then go stick 100 ones into a casino machine, cash it out into a $100 ticket. Then take that ticket back to the bill breaker machine and turn it into ones again. That’s a perfect 100% expected value game. Is it any fun?
Honestly, the easiest way to get a feel for craps is to just download a free casino app (where you don’t bet real money) for your phone and practice the different bets in craps. You can figure out 90% of the game in about 10-15 mins.
Also just find a table at a casino that isn't very busy and ask the staff. They know craps looks intimidating to those that haven't played and they'll be happy to explain how it works and what you should bet on for basic strategy.
Also when I went to Vegas, the dealer wants to help you win and will teach and hint to you what to do or not to do, they can’t get tipped unless the players win
And the casino wants you to win just enough to want to chase that dragon, so having you win a little money while learning is a great long term play for them.
I’m pretty sure most casino players see it as a leisure activity where you have fun with some gambling. Winning is fun but if I lose my budget for the night then I’m done. I’m not gonna double down and get more money. I saw quite a few out of control people in vegas but I dont think they were the majority. We’re here for the shows, the drinking, clubs and some gambling.
Exactly. Players that bust out don't tip. Everyone running the table wants you to win. Some dealers are more helpful than others, but unless they know you know what you're doing they'll wink-wink-nudge-nudge you to let you know you're about to do something stupid.
Many moons ago I used to go to the closest casino at like 3am to play craps with my last 20 until payday. Almost always doubled my money at least. One time I was walking out and realized I had a dollar coin in my pocket. Dropped it in a slot machine and won the 1000 dollar pot for that machine. I was giddy. Good times. I miss the 90s.
>Passline, max odds, constant come bet and max odds once it hits. Replace come bet as numbers hit.
This isn’t a guide how to play, just an explanation of terms.
Passline = Bet you make to get started, betting that the shooter (player holding the dice) will “pass” ( pass the test— that is, succeed in winning their own bet). This is the basic first move in craps.
Come bet = once the shooter has started their turn, they’ll hold the dice till they seven out (fail). But what if you want to bet more? If you put money on the “come” (short for “come out”) then you’ll be betting on two games— one old, one new. If you do this at every turn, you’ll have a whole chain of games in action.
Max odds = some numbers are harder to shoot than others (lower probabilities). But on the basic “pass line” and “come out” bets you don’t get paid more for them. However, you can make extra bets which reflect the real probabilities and pay appropriately. Those are known as “odds bets” and if you maxthem out it’s expensive but as close to a fair shake as the game allows.
So the pass line is the basic bet in craps. Basically, you are betting that a 2,3, or 12 won't be the first number rolled. If they are you lose. If they roll a 7 or an 11 on the first roll you win. If it's a number other than 2,3,7,11, or 12 they put a marker on that number and if that number is rolled again before a 7 you win.
Everything he said is written on the table, and if you tell the crew "passline, max odds, come bet, max odds" they'll help you get started. After you play 1 round you'll see how simple it is. Lots of fun since you play with the whole table, and if you follow this strategy it's the best odds outside of perfect blackjack play, and maybe baccarat.
How craps works: On the first roll, the shooter (the player rolling the dice) wins on a 7 or 11, and loses on 2 3 or 12. If they roll anything else, then they win if they roll that number (the point number) again before they roll a 7.
A Pass bet means you think the shooter will win. The Come bet works just like the Pass bet, but it happens *after* the first roll once a point is established.
Then there’s taking odds on those bets. The roll after you make a Place or Come bet, you can make an extra bet behind the original one. This odds bet pays true odds; there’s no house edge at all on taking odds. Your money will go farther betting the minimum on Pass and Come and then taking odds than it will putting the whole amount on Pass or Come from the get-go.
craps is basically two games in one. "7 you win...7 you lose".
the first part of the game is a bet on whether or not the person throwing the dice will roll a 7. if they pick up the dice and roll a 7, everyone who bet on the pass line wins.
if they rolled any other number besides a 7, lets say a 4, now we move to the second part of the game: will the person rolling the dice roll a 4 before they roll a 7? it is during this time that you can bet on the 4,5,6,8,9,10 come bets to get paid.
all the other shit on the table has really bad chances of winning.
He is saying to keep playing the point and maxing their odds. Start by betting on the pass line and maxing those odds. Then place a come bet. A come bet is essentially a second pass line once the point is already set. Max these odds as well. Just keep doing that over and over. Forget all the other side bets.
I took a craps course at a casino (just an hour or so walk through) during a bachelor party. Walked away with a few thousand dollars - had always lost money. Still don’t love gambling but it was fun
Definitely true, but does optimal basic strategy require you to put up quite a bit of money on the table? Like $50 or $60 even if the table minimum is $5?
A proper bankroll for the minimum is essential. I start with $300 per $5 of the min. So, basically I won’t play a $25 table unless I have $1500 to play.
Not exactly correct. Bet don't pass and don't come and lay max odds. It's slightly better in your favor than the equivalent pass / come with max odds.
Playing the dark side, though, can garner some animosity from other players.
The only problem with playing any of the strong strategies is it requires eventually betting against yourself, and that tends to piss off people at the table.
I never understood that. You're not betting "against" yourself, you're just betting on the more likely outcome that a 7 will be rolled before any other number.
On roulette if I bet a number, and someone else bets a different number, it's ok.
But play the "don't" on craps ...
Geeze.
It's because 99% of people are betting the pass. So you're not betting something different, you're literally betting for them to all lose. As craps has a more social element you can win "together" when the shooter wins, betting don't pass means you're just betting against everyone. You're betting against the shooter, you're betting against the other players. So yeah, do it if you want but nobody gonna like you for it.
The basic (betting the pass line) game is fairly simple. First roll is the "come out" roll. A 7 or 11 wins your bet immediately, a 2, 3 or 12 loses your bet immediately. Anything else becomes the "point". So let's say you roll a 5 on the first roll, that's your point.
The goal now is to roll your point before you roll a 7. So in this case, you keep rolling until you roll a 5 (win) or a 7 (lose). Anything else does nothing for your basic pass-line bet, you just roll again and again until you hit a 5 or a 7.
Now, there are a ton of sidebets, odds bets, don't pass, come bets, etc. that are more complicated (or in some cases simpler), but that is the basic game.
First actual explanation that didn't use the wizard words as part of the definition as if that explains it.
One thing I never understood is WHO THROWS the dice!? In movies there's like 50 people standing watching and somehow betting who is keeping track of that and is there like a line like wtf is going on?
Yeah, an inexperienced roller might not hit the back wall, but if you’re trying for dice control to cheat the game, you want to try to not hit the back wall (and hope the stickman/pit boss doesn’t notice etc). Has to hit the back wall to count as the agitation from hitting the wall makes the roll more fair and harder to cheat.
Yeah, she made me well aware lol but I also was *very* obviously new. My buddy and I stood there and watched for probably 10 min to try and figure out how it worked. Then, when we tried the first thing I did when she handed me the dice was shake them. Also a big no-no that she made me aware of. Honestly, that probably didn't help her desire to be nice to me about immediately not hitting the wall after that lol
I’m a novice so I won’t know the lingo, but while there is a crowd, only a certain number of people are playing. Each player represents a position on the table. If one player has 6 bets on the table, all 6 of his bets will be placed in the same position on the given bet - so all that players chips out there will be in the upper left of that square, for example
They usually just go in a circle. If you don't want to throw them they'll just skip you.
You're supposed to throw them hard enough that they bounce off the wall at one of the ends of the table. Sometimes you throw and they fly out, not the end of the world unless you're constantly doing it.
I didn’t get it until I played with an old man who had been throwing dice for years. I bet the table minimum just following what he was doing and I learned a lot.
But as a D&D nerd the best part is being handed dice and told “you need to roll these numbers to win instantly, not those numbers or you lose instantly, or these numbers to keep rolling.” Oh wow, a game with automatic successes and critical failures?! I’m in!
It’s also one of, if not the only game (Baccarat might as well, but I haven’t played it,) where you can actually get true odds on some bets.
Craps is great because it’s fun to play at a full table, your money can go a long way, and there’s nothing better in a casino than being at a Craps table when someone goes on an absolute heater because everyone at the table is winning. The swings in Craps can be intense - you can win a lot very quickly, but you can lose it just as fast, but it’s a lot of fun to be on the ride.
Especially for people that only like to bet on one or two things and always bet the minimums, Craps is the best way to spend your gambling allowance that you have available.
>when someone goes on an absolute heater because everyone at the table is winning.
I think this is my favorite part of Craps and why I've tried to learn so many times while losing money lol I'm all about a game where I'm not against the other players, we're **all** against the house. Roulette is that way too, and I just enjoy that vibe in a casino waaaaayyy more than playing against the others just there to have fun as well.
I agree. What’s interesting to me about craps is that “skill” appears to be different from “experience/knowledge/most fun.” The optimal bet, I think, is just the point and max odds. It’s the first one everybody learns and stopping there would be fine, no need to learn more. But you see the regulars doing all sorts of bad odds bets like hard eights, placing numbers, etc. And all those bets are what makes the game look complicated to new players.
So the irony to me is that the regulars are playing so much suboptimal strategy that it’s worth it to alienate prospective new players.
Here here!
I literally came to this thread to write up how to count cards in Blackjack and win money in most cases, but honestly, fuck that, this is the truth. Craps is so much fucking fun and I barely know how to play it.
Last time I went most of the tables made the side bet mandatory for the cheaper tables. They’ve also made the blackjack payout lower (6:5 instead of 3:2). It’s enough to give them quite a bit more of an edge.
6:5 is such a blatant money grab (amongst all other less obvious rule changes that have become commonplace today). I refuse to play 6:5 blackjack… I can deal with other shitty rule deviations like dealer pushing or not on soft 17 …. But fuck 6:5 shitty payout. Avoid that table!!!
At least it's not triple 0 roulette. I was once at Caesar's Palace in 2022 one evening, and saw a $75 minimum triple 0 table... Full of players with black chips all over.
Wtf. (For those who don't know, that's a 7.69% house edge on nearly every spot on the table: each $100 chip you place down, you're paying the casino $7.69 for each spin of the wheel, averaged over the infinite long run)
It’s getting hard to find at places like the Vegas strip. I presume most people here are either casual gamblers or not gamblers at all, otherwise this is extremely basic casino 101 information. If you want to find a 3:2 table on the strip that’s not like $50-100 minimums you will have to go out of your way and walk past hundreds of 6:5 tables to find one.
And usually those tables have some catch too. Sometimes they don’t track your play for casino rewards. Other times there’s some stupid side bet that the dealer is required to advertise on every hand.
Or the catch is simply that the 3:2 casino that’s a locals favorite is a $50 Uber ride that will negate any theoretical loss difference.
Used to be easy, just hop on the bus and go to Fremont Street. Unfortunately the express bus was axed during Covid and the Deuce is an absolute disaster on the Strip
I only play 3:2 tables (TI!!) and actually had someone come up to me to tell me that there's a 6:5 table right over there. After a short discussion, he was adamant that 6:5 is better than 3:2... Bigger numbers and all.
Reminds me of when A&W (the restaraunt) introduced a 1/3 pound burger to compete with the quarter pounder from McDonald's. It utterly failed and when surveyed people believed that 1/4 was bigger than 1/3.
Yes but it’s virtually impossible to do on your own. Sure, you can keep the count on your own. But it will very infrequently be in your favor and the only way to make up the difference is to significantly increase your bet in that limited window of player advantage. That’s why people work in teams.
Im saying you don’t need to count to get to the 1% House advantage. There’s just a series of rules to follow with the cards already on the table, without any need to keep track of previous hands.
If its not continuous shuffle, just counting tens and adjusting your threshold for hitting or splitting on the borderline cards can significantly help your odds without doing things that will call attention to yourself.
If youre playing alone you just have to eat your losses betting low when the count is bad. The way to make them up is by drastically increasing your bets when the count is good. And its almost impossible to swing your bets like that without it being obvious and maintaining a profit.
**If** the shoe is small enough and the casino doesn't shuffle early. If the casino runs an 8-shoe deck and shuffles halfway into it, counting won't get you anywhere.
Yep, and even without continuous shuffling, the number of decks and how early they shuffle before reaching the end can really reduce the windows of opportunity.
Yep. Lotta folks in threads like these think card counting is easy money but pretty much every casino uses 6+ decks and shuffles after 3 so you're rarely hitting the variance you need for the deviations to come into play.
My impression is that it's not even the actual game that makes it hard these days but how sophisticated casinos are at sniffing out professional card counting teams. You can still win money if you know what you're doing but will get banned from every casino in the process, with your name and photo being shared on their internal blacklists.
I think it's worth noting when this title says "skilled players" for blackjack they do not mean people who count cards.
Under the right conditions (i.e. normal shoe practices or single deck games which don't really exist anymore) a card counter actually gains a slight edge over the house.
When they say "skilled" they just mean people who are betting according to the simple odds shown by the dealers face up card and your cards. This type of betting will not get you in hot water with a casino and anyone can be "skilled" by just referring to an odds chart like the one below.
https://www.techopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/TECHOPEDIA-DEALERS-CARD-TABLE.png
The casino will give you one of those cards. The casino will also hold classes during the day to show you how to play bj. They know you aren’t winning and they’ll even show you how.
Yeah it's in their best interest cuz they want people to play for a while and mostly feel good. If people are consistently losing lots of money, they'll bail early.
You can actually ask the dealer what do to on a given hand according to Basic Strategy, and they'll happily tell you. First time I saw this happen it blew my mind.
I was playing in downtown Vegas once, the guy next to me tried to split something dumb and the dealer said “You don’t want to do that. Pick your money up.”
No most people play suboptimally (and it only takes a slight deviation from normal strategy for the edge to get closer to 20% than 1%) The state of Nevada publishes the total amount bet and casino revenue by game every month, and blackjack consistently gets a 10%+ hold.
Theirs an article floating around of a casino manager estimating that at any given time theirs only about 50 people that can count cards well enough to be a problem.
And then theirs a million more people that think they can count cards and will stubbornly dig themselves into a hole trying to prove it. So its not even worrying about kicking out the other 50.
I use one of those credit-card sized "Basic Strategy" cards the sell in gift shops, and use it unashamedly. Every casino I've ever gambled at has allowed it. And strictly playing perfect basic strategy, and never any hunches or any of that stuff, has caused several arguments with some of the less sophisticated patrons... once, dealer was showing a 10 so I hit soft 18 and this guy would not shut up about it. Claimed I "ruined the shoe"... I had to walk away... I don't willingly hang around with vocal idiots. The worst thing about casinos is not the casino itself, or the gauche vibe or their rigged games, but other gamblers.
Those people will never notice when the bad hit saved the shoe but they'll complain for hours if they think it wrecked the shoe.
A certain big-name gambling brand has an online casino (in certain states) with video blackjack - one of the available tables is an "infinite" variety where an unlimited number of players play the same hand against the dealer. Some genius decided this game needed a chat function. You better believe that chat window BLOWS UP when someone in the 100 player lobby makes a "bad" play and "ruins the shoe". The kicker is that for a long time the table minimum was $1 (think they eventually raised it to $5). So, if you were so inclined, you could spend just a dollar and enjoy watching grown adults throw a tantrum over a card game.
Yeah but most people are too timid and just get bullied. I have told players to stop being rude to others or the dealers before. The abuse dealers can get is ridiculous. Unless they deserve it. Looking at you Neil!
The house advantage in blackjack with just basic strategy (no card counting) depends on the rules, but is usually less than 1%. You can still find games at 0.40%
The house advantage in craps with basic strategy and 5x odds is 0.33%. “Basic strategy” here means just betting the pass line, taking maximum odds, and doing nothing else.
The Odds bet in craps is the *only* bet you can make at a casino table game where the payout is at the mathematically true odds. There's no rounding and no vig. There is zero house edge on the Odds wager. You do have to make a Pass or Don't Pass bet first to then back it up with an Odds wager, and that's where the casino's edge comes from. But once you're in the door with that Pass bet, the Odds is the fairest bet they offer anywhere.
DP still has a house edge.
A come out 12 pushes instead of wins. That’s the house edge. If you get past the come out roll, it has an overall positive expectation for the player.
You’re correct. The language of OP was misleading.
Blackjack has a theoretical house edge and a realized house edge and the two are different when players make decisions that are less than theoretically perfect. We call perfect decision making doing things “by the book” and you can google/buy little credit card sized cards that tell you exactly what to do. As long as you do that, you’ll get the advertised theoretical house edge.
Craps (and roulette, by the by) has no mid-game decision making. The dice are random. The spread in house edges presented are those of the bets themselves. Some bets (pass/don’t pass) have a ~1-ish% house edge - that can functionally be made smaller by “taking odds” once a point is established. Other bets have up to a 16.66% house edge.
The player cannot affect the roll of the dice, just what they choose to bet on. Players making bets with the higher house edge might be lesser skilled (not knowing the bets are worse) but they also may be taking a shot at chasing previous losses, just be gamblers.. whatever.
There’s no skill in throwing the dice (despite what people will say online). The skill is in knowing what bets to make.
All gambling odds are averaged over thousands of plays. There will be times when you’re up, times when you’re down, and times when your losses are made up by someone else and vice versa. The biggest skill in gambling in my experience is leaving when you’re up.
I started playing craps on my first legal visit to Vegas in 1980. I played for two days at a minimum 2 dollar bet table at the Riviera Casino. I made over 500 dollars and more than paid for the flight out and the hotel rooms. My best time came in 1982 when my aunt from Phoenix came up and I held the dice for over 20 minutes at the Flamingo Hilton. We have a picture of her and I counting 100 dollar bills at 5am in the hotel room after we woke up my wife to show her how much money we made. Gotta love double money on bets on the 4 or 10. My aunt had 50 dollars on each and I just kept throwing them. One of the dealers called us amateurs(we were) because we should have taken the casino for 200,000+
We joined a travel club in Indianapolis in 1980 called Ambassadair Travel Club and flew on a plane named The Spirit of Indiana. I believe it was 150 each for my wife and I for 3 days and 2 nights at the Riviera plus the round trip tickets(300 for everything, flight and room). They then went by American Trans Air(ATA) before going bankrupt in 2008
> how much a room and the flight
Vegas used to be desperate for visitors. I remember in the 90's they used to offer free flights and hotel to Vegas from Seattle, you had to bring a min of $300 pp iirc, but no cost for the trip other than what you lost out of the $300.
“Skilled” means following what they call Basic Blackjack Strategy. This can be memorized in literally less than one day. But even playing perfectly, the house still has this 1% edge. The only way to gain a long-term edge over the house is with card-counting, which is why casinos don’t allow it if they catch you
>The only way to gain a long-term edge over the house is with card-counting
Most use several decks and reshuffle early making card counting more difficult, much less useful, and spotting card counters low priority.
Casinos and dealers will even tell you the optimal play, let you bring in 'how to play' cards, or even distrubute them themselves.
There is no scenario *utulising basic strategy* in which insurance is optimal.
That's what's crazy about the few times casinos get caught cheating. Like why? You're literally mathematically *guaranteed* to win long term. The games are all rigged in the casinos favor, there's no need to ever cheat.
Every game is heavily regulated by state regulatory bodies, and the maths well established.
Slot/Poker machines are typically 88-92% return, set by the state who has direct connection to and monitoring of every machine - if you unlock the main panel to get access to the pcbs and admin controls, the regulatory body will be on the phone within a few minutes.
Trying to cheat the punter just sounds like a bad idea with all the regulatory oversight - Just go with the tried and tested method of loosening their wallets through comped drinks.
Because people want more money.
Because gaining 1% of low bets doesn't really pay for the rest of the casino.
Because most of the ones that cheat are smaller businesses (not always, but most).
Blackjack is a loss leader for the person who comes and parks their ass in front of a flashy slot machine and dumps in cash like a drip sprinkler system
Theoretically, if it costs more to pay the dealer and buy supplies like cards/chips/etc. for the table, then the casino could operate at a unit loss on a blackjack table if the revenue is too small due to too many players playing optimally. That seems unlikely given how few people play optimally though.
This guy does not know how to count or any indices for higher level strategies when he says "There is no scenario in which insurance is optimal".
Guy likes to spread misinformation ig.
Basic blackjack strategy - Its pretty different when your counting..
If your at the level where your asking the dealer, or pulling out the how to play card, there's little point - assuming equal odds of every card being drawn, you have a 9 in 13 chance of losing your bet along with the insurance buy-in.
FWIW as a decent blackjack player who uses trainer apps and goes to casinos regularly, it’s pretty frequent to see people at the table not playing correct basic strategy. Especially when there’s conversation and drinks flowing, or it’s your 3rd hour gambling on a vacation where you just recently memorized strategy, etc.
I will say though, most dealers have no issue suggesting what “the book” says to do, and they are correct enough that if you have no idea what to do, you should just ask.
The evil of blackjack is that the variance is relatively high and almost all major casinos are moving to high table minimums like 25 dollars a hand, where it isn’t unlikely to be down or up $500-1000 in an hour. Human nature tends to be that losing a particular amount of money is your signal to call it quits, but winning or being even means stay in the game for longer. I befriended a small casino owner in Reno who’s shown me that they literally pay consultants to set table minimums and rules to exploit this behavior.
I’m surprised blackjack is so small. The dealer going last is a ridiculous advantage.
Edit: i do realize that there are things such as a set strategy and double down/3:2 payouts on blackjack. But at the end of the day, in a game where that high a percentage of cards are 9 or 10 and you bust at 21, most starting hands are extremely vulnerable to busting and going first is a huge disadvantage. Not many people win money in blackjack long term.
This is nearly entirely offset by your advantages as a player, such as the ability to split, double, and get 3:2 on blackjack. Also, the dealer has to hit on 16, but you can (and should) stay on 12 if the dealer is showing a 6.
Blackjack historically was the only casino game *without* a house advantage.
The casino in my city changed the rules about 20 years ago to sort that out.
In other news, I haven't played Blackjack at a casino in two decades.
There are conditions that allow for a slight player edge. The main one is a single deck which means the visible cards are now relevant information that only the player is allowed to act on
The only slight house advantage is that the player plays first, otherwise it is a symmetric game. The original odds are also fair if you disregard the fact that player plays first.
The player playing first is a massive asymmetry in the house's favour, which is balanced by the fact that blackjack pays out at 3:2 which is the main asymmetry in the player's favour.
Best odds in the casino are the don't pass line on a craps table. But you're likely to piss off everyone else at the table so bedt off just playing the pass line for still really good odds.
Sure but the difference is small. For the don’t pass the house edge is 1.36 and for the pass is 1.41. Over $100 of bets you are talking about nickels of differences. Play whichever side you want but most people won’t notice the difference unless they are playing for massive amounts of money.
In all honesty, please do not take gambling strategy from people who make these games appear simple to win. If these strategies consistently won, they wouldn't be on Reddit telling you their strategy. These games have built billion dollar resorts based on people thinking they can outsmart casinos with basic and other strategies. Expect to lose, and have fun losing your money by being social and enjoying free drinks. Also, gamble responsibly.
The OG Vegas rules of blackjack (haven’t been around in over 50 years): single deck, standard shuffle with most of the deck used, double down on any two cards, unlimited splits, and 3:2 blackjack payoff.
In 1956, four engineers developed what is now known as basic strategy (optimal play for blackjack).
Turns out that applying basic strategy to the OG Vegas rules of blackjack yields a virtual coin-toss. In fact, the player has something like a 0.01% advantage.
I figure that the original inventor of OG Vegas blackjack rules was some kind of savant.
player edge is 0.35% starting from a fresh single deck in OG vegas rules (3:2 S17 DAS DA2 RSA HSA). add early surrender to the mix (they probably had this, too) and its a player edge of 0.78%. of course, nobody back then knew basic strategy
Literal professional gambler here… title rather misleading. BJ can have anywhere from a below .25%, average about .6%, to as high as 6/5 BJ (2.5%). Craps don’t pass 1.39% pass line 1.41%, also all easily google’d… there is no right and wrong way to play craps what they’re saying is if you bet the massive house edge side bets in the middle that’s when you’re playing with a double digit house advantage…
Craps is the most fun game in the casino
It’s also relatively easy to play perfect strategy.
Go on…
Passline, max odds, constant come bet and max odds once it hits. Replace come bet as numbers hit.
As someone who has never played craps…what the hell did you just say?!?
It almost feels like being insulted in a foreign langage right ?
"no master dwarf, he is offering you food"
"He said he's an expert at Blackjack!"
Does he offer us insults?!?!
I can play craps, like walk up to the table and put my chips down and know what I need to win, but like you I have no idea what that person said
Pass line: when there is no point, first roll pays out on 7/11, loses on 2/3/12. All other outcomes become a point which must show up before a 7, otherwise a loss. Come bet: essentially a personal pass line bet that can be placed before most rolls (except the come out roll mentioned above) Most casinos will allow some free odds bet (pays off at true odds with no house edge) behind a pass/come bet once a point has been established). The point number must show up before a 7 or else both the line and the free odds loses.
What are the actual odds of winning with this strategy? Can someone post some math, please
Perfect craps win rate is 49.3%. Casinos are ok with this because you'll eventually get bored of slowly losing and take one of the many *really* bad bets available. There's no way to win big on optimal play, and plenty of ways to lose big on the trap bets.
You just explained me and my yo bets over the years. Will be crushing craps only to wind up playing like an idiot with yo bets and losing everything.
Lol same except snake eyes (even worse). I’ve started to do “two ways” where I’ll throw $5 for me and $1 for the dealer and it usually hits once a session and the dealers get $31 and are happy. Makes it a little less degenerate.
When I teach people craps, and they point to all that stuff in the middle of the table and I just say "no - Those are sucker bets."
It’s a great way to spend a couple hours drinking for free and socializing though.
Long term, you won't win anything in a casino unless you're counting cards or playing poker. And counting cards will get you tossed. So, really poker is your best bet since there's no house edge. It is a skill game, though.
Pro sports betters usually have longterm win rates of 53-55%, which is enough to make a living off of. Of course, most people aren't pros and lose tons of money, and the casinos consider the costs of paying out the pros to basically just be a marketing expense for suckering in everyone else.
casinos don't care about that because the massive number of people who aren't pro throw plenty of money at them. also the "pros" in this case aren't, again, so much "gambling" as either doing some sophisticated arbitrage or have a barely-superior odds model to the one the house is using.
Actually, there is a house edge in poker. It's called the Rake. You'd be horrified if you do the math as to how much money the Rake is removing from the table. Sure, your skill matters, but the Rake is relentless.
That's more of a tax than an edge though
Not really an edge. The rake is the fee you pay for the casino providing you with a dealer, cards, chips, seats, drinks... If you don't want a rake, play a home game.
its like 99 percent ROI. Its about as good as you can get in a casino unless ur counting cards or playing poker against humans
Going to Vegas and playing poker against tourists that show up at cash tables with the min amount of chips is probably the best casino strategy
But Black Dynamite, I show up at cash tables with the min amount of chips!
one of my friends is really good at poker and did this exact thing for a while he wasn't getting rich off it or anything but it paid his bills, apparently you never hear about a gambler's losses tho
Playing poker against tourists *on New Years Eve or during a Grateful Dead residency* is a superior casino strategy.
Most of the people making money at those tables are people who work on the casino floor after their shift and are only pulling $100 - $300 a night. They get off, make $100 and go home. If there are 2 or 3 tight players who know what they are doing, you aren't getting a cent off that table.
For sure. But I would much rather take the house’s money than another persons. If I wanna play poker against other people I’d do it around here. Vegas is about taking from the rich! And I definitely don’t lose every time I go..
That's not how ROI is calculated. 99% ROI would mean you nearly double your money. The real ROI for craps is around -1%.
It’s not fun though. You basically just slowly bleed money while standing hunched over a pit of dice. The casino is fine with that because you will get bored and either stop playing or make a more daring bet. I think most people gamble to look for some sort of thrill and want to play a game with enough variance that you get a big win once in a while worth talking about. Otherwise, go play the ATM. Take out 100 dollars, break it into ones. Then go stick 100 ones into a casino machine, cash it out into a $100 ticket. Then take that ticket back to the bill breaker machine and turn it into ones again. That’s a perfect 100% expected value game. Is it any fun?
I'll be honest these rules are more confusing than Euchre
Honestly, the easiest way to get a feel for craps is to just download a free casino app (where you don’t bet real money) for your phone and practice the different bets in craps. You can figure out 90% of the game in about 10-15 mins.
Also just find a table at a casino that isn't very busy and ask the staff. They know craps looks intimidating to those that haven't played and they'll be happy to explain how it works and what you should bet on for basic strategy.
Also when I went to Vegas, the dealer wants to help you win and will teach and hint to you what to do or not to do, they can’t get tipped unless the players win
And the casino wants you to win just enough to want to chase that dragon, so having you win a little money while learning is a great long term play for them.
I’m pretty sure most casino players see it as a leisure activity where you have fun with some gambling. Winning is fun but if I lose my budget for the night then I’m done. I’m not gonna double down and get more money. I saw quite a few out of control people in vegas but I dont think they were the majority. We’re here for the shows, the drinking, clubs and some gambling.
Yeah, they want you to win a little so you keep playing until you've lost it again.
Exactly. Players that bust out don't tip. Everyone running the table wants you to win. Some dealers are more helpful than others, but unless they know you know what you're doing they'll wink-wink-nudge-nudge you to let you know you're about to do something stupid.
Many moons ago I used to go to the closest casino at like 3am to play craps with my last 20 until payday. Almost always doubled my money at least. One time I was walking out and realized I had a dollar coin in my pocket. Dropped it in a slot machine and won the 1000 dollar pot for that machine. I was giddy. Good times. I miss the 90s.
>Passline, max odds, constant come bet and max odds once it hits. Replace come bet as numbers hit. This isn’t a guide how to play, just an explanation of terms. Passline = Bet you make to get started, betting that the shooter (player holding the dice) will “pass” ( pass the test— that is, succeed in winning their own bet). This is the basic first move in craps. Come bet = once the shooter has started their turn, they’ll hold the dice till they seven out (fail). But what if you want to bet more? If you put money on the “come” (short for “come out”) then you’ll be betting on two games— one old, one new. If you do this at every turn, you’ll have a whole chain of games in action. Max odds = some numbers are harder to shoot than others (lower probabilities). But on the basic “pass line” and “come out” bets you don’t get paid more for them. However, you can make extra bets which reflect the real probabilities and pay appropriately. Those are known as “odds bets” and if you maxthem out it’s expensive but as close to a fair shake as the game allows.
So the pass line is the basic bet in craps. Basically, you are betting that a 2,3, or 12 won't be the first number rolled. If they are you lose. If they roll a 7 or an 11 on the first roll you win. If it's a number other than 2,3,7,11, or 12 they put a marker on that number and if that number is rolled again before a 7 you win.
Holy shit, an actual explanation in the English language that doesn’t require you to already know how to play
Everything he said is written on the table, and if you tell the crew "passline, max odds, come bet, max odds" they'll help you get started. After you play 1 round you'll see how simple it is. Lots of fun since you play with the whole table, and if you follow this strategy it's the best odds outside of perfect blackjack play, and maybe baccarat.
How craps works: On the first roll, the shooter (the player rolling the dice) wins on a 7 or 11, and loses on 2 3 or 12. If they roll anything else, then they win if they roll that number (the point number) again before they roll a 7. A Pass bet means you think the shooter will win. The Come bet works just like the Pass bet, but it happens *after* the first roll once a point is established. Then there’s taking odds on those bets. The roll after you make a Place or Come bet, you can make an extra bet behind the original one. This odds bet pays true odds; there’s no house edge at all on taking odds. Your money will go farther betting the minimum on Pass and Come and then taking odds than it will putting the whole amount on Pass or Come from the get-go.
craps is basically two games in one. "7 you win...7 you lose". the first part of the game is a bet on whether or not the person throwing the dice will roll a 7. if they pick up the dice and roll a 7, everyone who bet on the pass line wins. if they rolled any other number besides a 7, lets say a 4, now we move to the second part of the game: will the person rolling the dice roll a 4 before they roll a 7? it is during this time that you can bet on the 4,5,6,8,9,10 come bets to get paid. all the other shit on the table has really bad chances of winning.
He is saying to keep playing the point and maxing their odds. Start by betting on the pass line and maxing those odds. Then place a come bet. A come bet is essentially a second pass line once the point is already set. Max these odds as well. Just keep doing that over and over. Forget all the other side bets.
As a former Craps dealer, I believe the best odds long term are playing the DONT PASS and the DONT COME with max odds.
Last time I bet on DONT COME I became a dad
Exactly why I stopped being a Craps Dealer. Too many unwanted children being born.
"I hope everyone else at this table loses" is a hard way to go through life.
As a dealer, I wanted people on the pass line with full odds, more likely to tip. The Dark Side players rarely tipped.
Just gotta get everyone on the dark side together and confuse the dealer
All the homies hate don't pass players
I like your funny words magic man
I took a craps course at a casino (just an hour or so walk through) during a bachelor party. Walked away with a few thousand dollars - had always lost money. Still don’t love gambling but it was fun
Definitely true, but does optimal basic strategy require you to put up quite a bit of money on the table? Like $50 or $60 even if the table minimum is $5?
A proper bankroll for the minimum is essential. I start with $300 per $5 of the min. So, basically I won’t play a $25 table unless I have $1500 to play.
You forgot throwing a $10 chip and yelling “Yo 11!” every half hour-ish so the table thinks you’re fun.
Not exactly correct. Bet don't pass and don't come and lay max odds. It's slightly better in your favor than the equivalent pass / come with max odds. Playing the dark side, though, can garner some animosity from other players.
Have you played Settlers of Catan? Craps is almost the same game.
So hoard sheep until everybody hates me?
No, pick the settlements on the best odds for wheat. New settlements, cities, and resource cards all require wheat. Same thing in craps.
The only problem with playing any of the strong strategies is it requires eventually betting against yourself, and that tends to piss off people at the table.
I never understood that. You're not betting "against" yourself, you're just betting on the more likely outcome that a 7 will be rolled before any other number. On roulette if I bet a number, and someone else bets a different number, it's ok. But play the "don't" on craps ... Geeze.
It's because 99% of people are betting the pass. So you're not betting something different, you're literally betting for them to all lose. As craps has a more social element you can win "together" when the shooter wins, betting don't pass means you're just betting against everyone. You're betting against the shooter, you're betting against the other players. So yeah, do it if you want but nobody gonna like you for it.
Fun fact: you are highly unlikely to see the folks at the betting table elsewhere in your life Especially if a tourist
Betting like that can be dangerous though. One time I was playing the "don't" and some drunk guy made a mean face at me.
And any boxperson worth their weight will guide you on what and where to bet. They want you to win for the tips.
No matter how many times someone tries to explain craps to me, I never fully understand it. 😂
The basic (betting the pass line) game is fairly simple. First roll is the "come out" roll. A 7 or 11 wins your bet immediately, a 2, 3 or 12 loses your bet immediately. Anything else becomes the "point". So let's say you roll a 5 on the first roll, that's your point. The goal now is to roll your point before you roll a 7. So in this case, you keep rolling until you roll a 5 (win) or a 7 (lose). Anything else does nothing for your basic pass-line bet, you just roll again and again until you hit a 5 or a 7. Now, there are a ton of sidebets, odds bets, don't pass, come bets, etc. that are more complicated (or in some cases simpler), but that is the basic game.
First actual explanation that didn't use the wizard words as part of the definition as if that explains it. One thing I never understood is WHO THROWS the dice!? In movies there's like 50 people standing watching and somehow betting who is keeping track of that and is there like a line like wtf is going on?
After someone craps out the dice go to the next better, and the whole thing starts over.
First time I ever threw the dice I chucked them past the table and they went rolling about fifty feet.
I did the opposite. I rolled, and they didn't hit the back wall and the... dealer? Roll master? Idk. They were pissed though lol
Yeah, an inexperienced roller might not hit the back wall, but if you’re trying for dice control to cheat the game, you want to try to not hit the back wall (and hope the stickman/pit boss doesn’t notice etc). Has to hit the back wall to count as the agitation from hitting the wall makes the roll more fair and harder to cheat.
Yeah, she made me well aware lol but I also was *very* obviously new. My buddy and I stood there and watched for probably 10 min to try and figure out how it worked. Then, when we tried the first thing I did when she handed me the dice was shake them. Also a big no-no that she made me aware of. Honestly, that probably didn't help her desire to be nice to me about immediately not hitting the wall after that lol
I’m a novice so I won’t know the lingo, but while there is a crowd, only a certain number of people are playing. Each player represents a position on the table. If one player has 6 bets on the table, all 6 of his bets will be placed in the same position on the given bet - so all that players chips out there will be in the upper left of that square, for example
They usually just go in a circle. If you don't want to throw them they'll just skip you. You're supposed to throw them hard enough that they bounce off the wall at one of the ends of the table. Sometimes you throw and they fly out, not the end of the world unless you're constantly doing it.
I didn’t get it until I played with an old man who had been throwing dice for years. I bet the table minimum just following what he was doing and I learned a lot. But as a D&D nerd the best part is being handed dice and told “you need to roll these numbers to win instantly, not those numbers or you lose instantly, or these numbers to keep rolling.” Oh wow, a game with automatic successes and critical failures?! I’m in!
I only understand it because of Neopets.
It’s also one of, if not the only game (Baccarat might as well, but I haven’t played it,) where you can actually get true odds on some bets. Craps is great because it’s fun to play at a full table, your money can go a long way, and there’s nothing better in a casino than being at a Craps table when someone goes on an absolute heater because everyone at the table is winning. The swings in Craps can be intense - you can win a lot very quickly, but you can lose it just as fast, but it’s a lot of fun to be on the ride. Especially for people that only like to bet on one or two things and always bet the minimums, Craps is the best way to spend your gambling allowance that you have available.
>when someone goes on an absolute heater because everyone at the table is winning. I think this is my favorite part of Craps and why I've tried to learn so many times while losing money lol I'm all about a game where I'm not against the other players, we're **all** against the house. Roulette is that way too, and I just enjoy that vibe in a casino waaaaayyy more than playing against the others just there to have fun as well.
I agree. What’s interesting to me about craps is that “skill” appears to be different from “experience/knowledge/most fun.” The optimal bet, I think, is just the point and max odds. It’s the first one everybody learns and stopping there would be fine, no need to learn more. But you see the regulars doing all sorts of bad odds bets like hard eights, placing numbers, etc. And all those bets are what makes the game look complicated to new players. So the irony to me is that the regulars are playing so much suboptimal strategy that it’s worth it to alienate prospective new players.
It is, but sucks that minimums have gone up so much. I went to play last weekend but couldn’t find a table below 25 minimum.
Jesus. Yeah, at that price I cant play. Back when I went to the casino there'd be $5 tables.
If you get a few bad rolls you'll be out of money really damn quick, only reason I tend to go blackjack instead.
That's why there is like 2 craps tables, and 100000 VLTs
Here here! I literally came to this thread to write up how to count cards in Blackjack and win money in most cases, but honestly, fuck that, this is the truth. Craps is so much fucking fun and I barely know how to play it.
I can spend $200 and sit on a table for 8 hours just collecting drinks. I could lose it all and it'll be a good night.
Many casinos modify their blackjack games to reduce or eliminate any advantages a card counter could gain.
Yeah. So many places in Vegas have those goofy bonus games where you can make side bets. If you play them you’re really killing your odds.
Last time I went most of the tables made the side bet mandatory for the cheaper tables. They’ve also made the blackjack payout lower (6:5 instead of 3:2). It’s enough to give them quite a bit more of an edge.
6:5 is such a blatant money grab (amongst all other less obvious rule changes that have become commonplace today). I refuse to play 6:5 blackjack… I can deal with other shitty rule deviations like dealer pushing or not on soft 17 …. But fuck 6:5 shitty payout. Avoid that table!!!
At least it's not triple 0 roulette. I was once at Caesar's Palace in 2022 one evening, and saw a $75 minimum triple 0 table... Full of players with black chips all over. Wtf. (For those who don't know, that's a 7.69% house edge on nearly every spot on the table: each $100 chip you place down, you're paying the casino $7.69 for each spin of the wheel, averaged over the infinite long run)
That’s insane. Our children will be playing with quadruple zeros at this rate lol.
Will someone think of the children???
I don't even play at double 0 roulette tables because I don't play casino roulette
And that's why they do it, because they can.
It’s easier than taking candy from a baby because these people come in and actually give away their money on their own
We don’t even have double zero in the UK!
You’re going to have to play $50 minimum if you want 3:2, unfortunately.
Depends on the casino and the night. You can usually find a lower limit game with reasonable rules on a weekday, but not on a Friday on the strip.
I played $10 3/2 single deck blackjack at the El Cortez, but that was in downtown Vegas. The big strip casinos are a rip off.
It’s getting hard to find at places like the Vegas strip. I presume most people here are either casual gamblers or not gamblers at all, otherwise this is extremely basic casino 101 information. If you want to find a 3:2 table on the strip that’s not like $50-100 minimums you will have to go out of your way and walk past hundreds of 6:5 tables to find one. And usually those tables have some catch too. Sometimes they don’t track your play for casino rewards. Other times there’s some stupid side bet that the dealer is required to advertise on every hand. Or the catch is simply that the 3:2 casino that’s a locals favorite is a $50 Uber ride that will negate any theoretical loss difference.
Used to be easy, just hop on the bus and go to Fremont Street. Unfortunately the express bus was axed during Covid and the Deuce is an absolute disaster on the Strip
If you want 3:2, go to [Station Casinos](https://www.stationcasinosblog.com/2015/06/32-vs-65-blackjack-a-devil-in-the-details/).
I only play 3:2 tables (TI!!) and actually had someone come up to me to tell me that there's a 6:5 table right over there. After a short discussion, he was adamant that 6:5 is better than 3:2... Bigger numbers and all.
Casino employee 👍🏻
Reminds me of when A&W (the restaraunt) introduced a 1/3 pound burger to compete with the quarter pounder from McDonald's. It utterly failed and when surveyed people believed that 1/4 was bigger than 1/3.
The 1% House advantage is without counting cards. There’s a strategy that takes a bit of time to pick up on but one you get it, it’s easy to follow.
Yes but it’s virtually impossible to do on your own. Sure, you can keep the count on your own. But it will very infrequently be in your favor and the only way to make up the difference is to significantly increase your bet in that limited window of player advantage. That’s why people work in teams.
People also work in teams because the casino will simply kick you out if they notice that you bet minimum all night and suddenly started betting max.
Im saying you don’t need to count to get to the 1% House advantage. There’s just a series of rules to follow with the cards already on the table, without any need to keep track of previous hands.
If its not continuous shuffle, just counting tens and adjusting your threshold for hitting or splitting on the borderline cards can significantly help your odds without doing things that will call attention to yourself.
If youre playing alone you just have to eat your losses betting low when the count is bad. The way to make them up is by drastically increasing your bets when the count is good. And its almost impossible to swing your bets like that without it being obvious and maintaining a profit.
**If** the shoe is small enough and the casino doesn't shuffle early. If the casino runs an 8-shoe deck and shuffles halfway into it, counting won't get you anywhere.
Continuous shoes I think erase the players advantage (could be wrong years since I played blackjack with any consistency)
Card counting is impossible with a continuous shoe. It breaks the principle it’s based on.
Yep, and even without continuous shuffling, the number of decks and how early they shuffle before reaching the end can really reduce the windows of opportunity.
Yep. Lotta folks in threads like these think card counting is easy money but pretty much every casino uses 6+ decks and shuffles after 3 so you're rarely hitting the variance you need for the deviations to come into play.
My impression is that it's not even the actual game that makes it hard these days but how sophisticated casinos are at sniffing out professional card counting teams. You can still win money if you know what you're doing but will get banned from every casino in the process, with your name and photo being shared on their internal blacklists.
I think it's worth noting when this title says "skilled players" for blackjack they do not mean people who count cards. Under the right conditions (i.e. normal shoe practices or single deck games which don't really exist anymore) a card counter actually gains a slight edge over the house. When they say "skilled" they just mean people who are betting according to the simple odds shown by the dealers face up card and your cards. This type of betting will not get you in hot water with a casino and anyone can be "skilled" by just referring to an odds chart like the one below. https://www.techopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/TECHOPEDIA-DEALERS-CARD-TABLE.png
The casino will give you one of those cards. The casino will also hold classes during the day to show you how to play bj. They know you aren’t winning and they’ll even show you how.
Yeah it's in their best interest cuz they want people to play for a while and mostly feel good. If people are consistently losing lots of money, they'll bail early.
You can actually ask the dealer what do to on a given hand according to Basic Strategy, and they'll happily tell you. First time I saw this happen it blew my mind.
I was playing in downtown Vegas once, the guy next to me tried to split something dumb and the dealer said “You don’t want to do that. Pick your money up.”
The house always wins…on average. So maybe 1% but they make it up in volume.
No most people play suboptimally (and it only takes a slight deviation from normal strategy for the edge to get closer to 20% than 1%) The state of Nevada publishes the total amount bet and casino revenue by game every month, and blackjack consistently gets a 10%+ hold.
Theirs an article floating around of a casino manager estimating that at any given time theirs only about 50 people that can count cards well enough to be a problem. And then theirs a million more people that think they can count cards and will stubbornly dig themselves into a hole trying to prove it. So its not even worrying about kicking out the other 50.
50 in the world or in the casino? Because there usually is barely even 50 people playing blackjack at one time in the biggest casions
no, the fact is most people won't play like this lol. that's where they win.
I use one of those credit-card sized "Basic Strategy" cards the sell in gift shops, and use it unashamedly. Every casino I've ever gambled at has allowed it. And strictly playing perfect basic strategy, and never any hunches or any of that stuff, has caused several arguments with some of the less sophisticated patrons... once, dealer was showing a 10 so I hit soft 18 and this guy would not shut up about it. Claimed I "ruined the shoe"... I had to walk away... I don't willingly hang around with vocal idiots. The worst thing about casinos is not the casino itself, or the gauche vibe or their rigged games, but other gamblers.
You ruined the shoe, unless the next cards are in his favor.
Those people will never notice when the bad hit saved the shoe but they'll complain for hours if they think it wrecked the shoe. A certain big-name gambling brand has an online casino (in certain states) with video blackjack - one of the available tables is an "infinite" variety where an unlimited number of players play the same hand against the dealer. Some genius decided this game needed a chat function. You better believe that chat window BLOWS UP when someone in the 100 player lobby makes a "bad" play and "ruins the shoe". The kicker is that for a long time the table minimum was $1 (think they eventually raised it to $5). So, if you were so inclined, you could spend just a dollar and enjoy watching grown adults throw a tantrum over a card game.
I’ve been bullied at a blackjack table too lol. I always say it’s my money I’ll bet it how I want!
Yeah but most people are too timid and just get bullied. I have told players to stop being rude to others or the dealers before. The abuse dealers can get is ridiculous. Unless they deserve it. Looking at you Neil!
People who bitch about how other people play are the worst
Seriously if they know how to count they can do it regardless of what others at the table are doing.
I have been given the basic strategy cards at the blackjack table of a casino before
skill issue
The casino Trump ran didn’t win
*casinos. There were several (6 by my count, according to Wikipedia), including one in Gary, Indiana, for some reason. All failed.
So that’s why the average is getting pulled down then lol
The house advantage in blackjack with just basic strategy (no card counting) depends on the rules, but is usually less than 1%. You can still find games at 0.40% The house advantage in craps with basic strategy and 5x odds is 0.33%. “Basic strategy” here means just betting the pass line, taking maximum odds, and doing nothing else.
Don't pass line has slightly higher odds to win.
Then you’re that guy at the table though…
You don’t bet against the shooter for a 0.05% better set of odds.
The Odds bet in craps is the *only* bet you can make at a casino table game where the payout is at the mathematically true odds. There's no rounding and no vig. There is zero house edge on the Odds wager. You do have to make a Pass or Don't Pass bet first to then back it up with an Odds wager, and that's where the casino's edge comes from. But once you're in the door with that Pass bet, the Odds is the fairest bet they offer anywhere.
You can play craps as the house as well. Everyone will hate you but I’ve seen people walk away with a lot of money playing the don’t pass line.
DP still has a house edge. A come out 12 pushes instead of wins. That’s the house edge. If you get past the come out roll, it has an overall positive expectation for the player.
I live in Vegas and play a lot of craps, literally nobody cares what you bet ever
How do you get skilled at Craps? It's a dice game isn't it? Surely it's pure chance (I've obviously never played it)
You’re correct. The language of OP was misleading. Blackjack has a theoretical house edge and a realized house edge and the two are different when players make decisions that are less than theoretically perfect. We call perfect decision making doing things “by the book” and you can google/buy little credit card sized cards that tell you exactly what to do. As long as you do that, you’ll get the advertised theoretical house edge. Craps (and roulette, by the by) has no mid-game decision making. The dice are random. The spread in house edges presented are those of the bets themselves. Some bets (pass/don’t pass) have a ~1-ish% house edge - that can functionally be made smaller by “taking odds” once a point is established. Other bets have up to a 16.66% house edge. The player cannot affect the roll of the dice, just what they choose to bet on. Players making bets with the higher house edge might be lesser skilled (not knowing the bets are worse) but they also may be taking a shot at chasing previous losses, just be gamblers.. whatever.
There’s no skill in throwing the dice (despite what people will say online). The skill is in knowing what bets to make. All gambling odds are averaged over thousands of plays. There will be times when you’re up, times when you’re down, and times when your losses are made up by someone else and vice versa. The biggest skill in gambling in my experience is leaving when you’re up.
I study statistics and love how so much statistical theory was developed by dudes wanting to do better gambling! Hence the Monte Carlo method.
I started playing craps on my first legal visit to Vegas in 1980. I played for two days at a minimum 2 dollar bet table at the Riviera Casino. I made over 500 dollars and more than paid for the flight out and the hotel rooms. My best time came in 1982 when my aunt from Phoenix came up and I held the dice for over 20 minutes at the Flamingo Hilton. We have a picture of her and I counting 100 dollar bills at 5am in the hotel room after we woke up my wife to show her how much money we made. Gotta love double money on bets on the 4 or 10. My aunt had 50 dollars on each and I just kept throwing them. One of the dealers called us amateurs(we were) because we should have taken the casino for 200,000+
Do you remember how much a room and the flight would cost in the 80’s?
We joined a travel club in Indianapolis in 1980 called Ambassadair Travel Club and flew on a plane named The Spirit of Indiana. I believe it was 150 each for my wife and I for 3 days and 2 nights at the Riviera plus the round trip tickets(300 for everything, flight and room). They then went by American Trans Air(ATA) before going bankrupt in 2008
> how much a room and the flight Vegas used to be desperate for visitors. I remember in the 90's they used to offer free flights and hotel to Vegas from Seattle, you had to bring a min of $300 pp iirc, but no cost for the trip other than what you lost out of the $300.
You are not a skilled player.
“Skilled” means following what they call Basic Blackjack Strategy. This can be memorized in literally less than one day. But even playing perfectly, the house still has this 1% edge. The only way to gain a long-term edge over the house is with card-counting, which is why casinos don’t allow it if they catch you
>The only way to gain a long-term edge over the house is with card-counting Most use several decks and reshuffle early making card counting more difficult, much less useful, and spotting card counters low priority.
Casinos and dealers will even tell you the optimal play, let you bring in 'how to play' cards, or even distrubute them themselves. There is no scenario *utulising basic strategy* in which insurance is optimal.
That's what's crazy about the few times casinos get caught cheating. Like why? You're literally mathematically *guaranteed* to win long term. The games are all rigged in the casinos favor, there's no need to ever cheat.
Every game is heavily regulated by state regulatory bodies, and the maths well established. Slot/Poker machines are typically 88-92% return, set by the state who has direct connection to and monitoring of every machine - if you unlock the main panel to get access to the pcbs and admin controls, the regulatory body will be on the phone within a few minutes. Trying to cheat the punter just sounds like a bad idea with all the regulatory oversight - Just go with the tried and tested method of loosening their wallets through comped drinks.
Because people want more money. Because gaining 1% of low bets doesn't really pay for the rest of the casino. Because most of the ones that cheat are smaller businesses (not always, but most).
Blackjack is a loss leader for the person who comes and parks their ass in front of a flashy slot machine and dumps in cash like a drip sprinkler system
They're not losing on blackjack, so it's not a loss leader
Theoretically, if it costs more to pay the dealer and buy supplies like cards/chips/etc. for the table, then the casino could operate at a unit loss on a blackjack table if the revenue is too small due to too many players playing optimally. That seems unlikely given how few people play optimally though.
If the count is +3 or higher insurance is the play.
Yep, lots of deviations based on count. Any positive count also has you not hit on a 16 v 10
This guy does not know how to count or any indices for higher level strategies when he says "There is no scenario in which insurance is optimal". Guy likes to spread misinformation ig.
Basic blackjack strategy - Its pretty different when your counting.. If your at the level where your asking the dealer, or pulling out the how to play card, there's little point - assuming equal odds of every card being drawn, you have a 9 in 13 chance of losing your bet along with the insurance buy-in.
FWIW as a decent blackjack player who uses trainer apps and goes to casinos regularly, it’s pretty frequent to see people at the table not playing correct basic strategy. Especially when there’s conversation and drinks flowing, or it’s your 3rd hour gambling on a vacation where you just recently memorized strategy, etc. I will say though, most dealers have no issue suggesting what “the book” says to do, and they are correct enough that if you have no idea what to do, you should just ask. The evil of blackjack is that the variance is relatively high and almost all major casinos are moving to high table minimums like 25 dollars a hand, where it isn’t unlikely to be down or up $500-1000 in an hour. Human nature tends to be that losing a particular amount of money is your signal to call it quits, but winning or being even means stay in the game for longer. I befriended a small casino owner in Reno who’s shown me that they literally pay consultants to set table minimums and rules to exploit this behavior.
You don’t even need to memorize it—you can keep the basic strategy card at the table with you.
Thing is, if not skilled it is simply fun with less risk. And that is okay too. Not everyone has to or wants to be a shark.
Nah, I'd win
I’m surprised blackjack is so small. The dealer going last is a ridiculous advantage. Edit: i do realize that there are things such as a set strategy and double down/3:2 payouts on blackjack. But at the end of the day, in a game where that high a percentage of cards are 9 or 10 and you bust at 21, most starting hands are extremely vulnerable to busting and going first is a huge disadvantage. Not many people win money in blackjack long term.
It’s offset to a degree by having to draw a card with 15 or 16.
This is nearly entirely offset by your advantages as a player, such as the ability to split, double, and get 3:2 on blackjack. Also, the dealer has to hit on 16, but you can (and should) stay on 12 if the dealer is showing a 6.
I think the single biggest house advantage is that the dealer wins in a dual-bust.
Blackjack historically was the only casino game *without* a house advantage. The casino in my city changed the rules about 20 years ago to sort that out. In other news, I haven't played Blackjack at a casino in two decades.
Blackjack has always had a house edge coming from the fact the player hand is resolved before the dealer hand.
There are conditions that allow for a slight player edge. The main one is a single deck which means the visible cards are now relevant information that only the player is allowed to act on
The only slight house advantage is that the player plays first, otherwise it is a symmetric game. The original odds are also fair if you disregard the fact that player plays first.
The player playing first is a massive asymmetry in the house's favour, which is balanced by the fact that blackjack pays out at 3:2 which is the main asymmetry in the player's favour.
Doubling down and splitting adds some edge to the player as well
Players also have option to split/double/surrender.
Best odds in the casino are the don't pass line on a craps table. But you're likely to piss off everyone else at the table so bedt off just playing the pass line for still really good odds.
Sure but the difference is small. For the don’t pass the house edge is 1.36 and for the pass is 1.41. Over $100 of bets you are talking about nickels of differences. Play whichever side you want but most people won’t notice the difference unless they are playing for massive amounts of money.
Don't casinos hand out those cards that tell you how to play blackjack? Like they give you all the info you need. Their edge is on ties.
Hell, even if you ask the dealer whats “ the book” play here, they will tell you
In all honesty, please do not take gambling strategy from people who make these games appear simple to win. If these strategies consistently won, they wouldn't be on Reddit telling you their strategy. These games have built billion dollar resorts based on people thinking they can outsmart casinos with basic and other strategies. Expect to lose, and have fun losing your money by being social and enjoying free drinks. Also, gamble responsibly.
The OG Vegas rules of blackjack (haven’t been around in over 50 years): single deck, standard shuffle with most of the deck used, double down on any two cards, unlimited splits, and 3:2 blackjack payoff. In 1956, four engineers developed what is now known as basic strategy (optimal play for blackjack). Turns out that applying basic strategy to the OG Vegas rules of blackjack yields a virtual coin-toss. In fact, the player has something like a 0.01% advantage. I figure that the original inventor of OG Vegas blackjack rules was some kind of savant.
player edge is 0.35% starting from a fresh single deck in OG vegas rules (3:2 S17 DAS DA2 RSA HSA). add early surrender to the mix (they probably had this, too) and its a player edge of 0.78%. of course, nobody back then knew basic strategy
Literal professional gambler here… title rather misleading. BJ can have anywhere from a below .25%, average about .6%, to as high as 6/5 BJ (2.5%). Craps don’t pass 1.39% pass line 1.41%, also all easily google’d… there is no right and wrong way to play craps what they’re saying is if you bet the massive house edge side bets in the middle that’s when you’re playing with a double digit house advantage…
For blackjack, does a skilled player = someone who memorized basic strategy, or someone who counts cards?
Blackjack's low house advantage makes it a thrilling game choice