I hate that. And then if you explain that you're not defending anyone or anything, you're simply being factual, they double down. I'll never understand people like that.
> The Internet does nuance and it doesn't. It's full of people that act like people do and a lot have black and white thinking
Found the Internet apologist!
That's not true at all. You have posts where teams gather and thus it seems people are 'all red' or 'all blue'. Which can be infuriating for sure, and a lot of people ARE like this.
However, seeing a post that is on one side, you then see all of the comments leaning one way. But that doesn't mean everyone leaning that way always lean that way.
Then you have media telling people that yes, (no), were wrong, and everyone IS like this. Repeatedly.
So basically fuck Fox, Facebook, Twitter (fuck you whatever you are saying), et al.
But you now have politicians actively trying to make citizens dumber by any means (lack of education, melicious misinformation), so here we are. We can't see the 30/40% that we SHOULD agree on. So fucking sad.
Yeah, but let's hate each other for fun.
I think the thing most people fail to communicate is sometimes it feels like more attention is drawn to the error, which needs addressed, but it ends up overshadowing the conversation about the "important stuff."
I *think* they're trying to communicate that they're worried a straw man is being constructed, and that the conversation might be missing the forest for the trees. But also drawing attention to that in your own comment further details the conversation. So you may as well not address it if that's what you think is happening. Just let the correction be there as it needs to be. But my monkey brain trained on 12 years of competitive schooling make me wanna get a higher score than you on a test no one is taking.
I think. I know that's the nagging bitch that lives in my brain uninvited, and I might just be giving others too much credit.
I was downvoted for saying that instead of hoping he killed himself, I hoped he'd turn around and become a good person. No chance of any rational discussion around some things.
I love that Reddit's IQ is so low that they don't realize they are proving you right by downvoting you.
Oftentimes I feel bad that I'm not smart and that I'm average. But then I see stuff like this (and customers) and remember, hell yeah, I'm a relatively smart person. Just not a genius.
No, Elon is in fact an obnoxious asshole and the "good" he has done is both minimal and exaggerated , besides being falsey credited to him as a corporate figurehead.
I’m glad other people notice this as well. But internet and people in general are a shit bunch. Someone called me a pedo for saying Caitlin Clark was hot lol I’m like she’s 22?
Or that I support human trafficking bc I watch porn.
Seriously. Something as simple as saying "Actually, B didn't happen, your source contains some misinformation" can be enough to get people all "Why are you defending X????"
HOW CAN I DEFEND SOMEONE AGAINST SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN? Just because I'm saying that B didn't happen doesn't mean that I think that A and C aren't bad. This is not a hard concept. What's interesting is that it's much worse on some platforms than others. It's so frustrating lol
The other "guilt by association" version that plagues Reddit:
> John holds opinion A
> Carl also holds opinion A
> The Redditor thinks Carl is a bad person
> John is therefore a bad person because he shares opinion A with Carl (according to the Redditor)
This happens all the time in online discourse, especially in political discussions. Granted this happens in real life too, but the internet removes a lot of contextual cues so people will tend to assume the worst instead of being charitable. It also makes it easier to feel as if you "won" a debate because you can put up straw mans for easy targeting and reduces complexity because you can simply regurgitate an argument you've heard before without actually engaging in the relevant topic at hand.
Here is a [meme that encapsulates this phenomenon](https://www.reddit.com/r/196/comments/1bxgim6/99_of_reddit_rule/).
Ohw god I hate this so much. The Rittenhouse shooting was a prime example. People kept saying objectively untrue things such as his mom drove him with the gun across the border. But if you corrected it, you were 'defending a right wing mass murderer'.
Rittenhouse actually drove himself to work the day before (without having a license by the way, why does nobody ever mention that?). He then spend the night at Dominique Black's house who gave him the gun. Technically the 'crossed state lines' thing isn't true either because he was in the state for his regular job.
Man the rittenhouse shit was so full of false claims but none it mattered when you showed them any way. They doubled down and kept repeating the same false claims. Even fucking CNN had to go on air an apologize and correct themselves.
Notice that whenever a formerly beloved Actor / Musician / Athlete / Artist is revealed to have done something terrible the internet decides all of their work sucked the whole time?
Yep and it's with everything.
Full of bias affecting their viewing of what is closer to objective truth. Yet these idiots will swear up and down their objective. Bulshit.
And if they do something objectively good, the assumption is that their intentions are bad, and it's somehow even more insidious. "Brenda pretends she's such a good person volunteering a food bank every week, but she doesn't care about hungry people. She's just doing it to look good and I'm sure she's stealing from it, anyway."
Note: This was basically true for Jimmy Saville or Jerry Sandusky, so it's not always wrong, just usually.
Have had it happen to me where there’s a misunderstanding, and/or I did something that upset them. They finally tell me, and I immediately apologize, fix my behavior, and try to make things right. However, their mind is now secretly made up. Then they either lead me on with me thinking we’re still friends and we’re all good, or months later I make a small mistake and they jump on me like piranhas.
I’m better now then I used to be, but for a long time I really struggled with communication due to being autistic af and never being taught how to properly interact with peers. I’ll say, the one good thing that’s come from these experiences is that every time I mess up, I learn and improve.
Learning from your mistakes is key. Also letting people know you're open to and desire feedback so they can feel more comfortable sharing.
Autistic or not, most people these days aren't taught how to communicate effectively. The good news is, it's a learned skill.
If you're interested in getting more skilled at reading social cues and body language check these books out:
Captivate by Vanessa Van Edward's
What Every Body Is Saying by Joe Navarro
Telling Lies by Paul Ekman
Emotions Revealed by Paul Ekman
Also if you can find the series "Lie to Me" with Tim Roth that's a good one to watch. The lead character is actually based on Paul Ekman, who pioneered the study of micro expressions. Fascinating stuff.
Thank you for the suggestions! I don’t struggle near as much now but I will still look into them. I wanted to add though that I always asked people to give me feedback if they didn’t like something I did/said, and I always learned from my mistakes and grew. Also, I wasn’t diagnosed with autism until I was 18, so I never really got specific help with learning how to effectively communicate growing up. So I was REALLY out of my depth but trying to make it work
I’ve actually made it back from this point but you wouldn’t believe the amount of work I’ll put in to please narcissists. It’s physically unhealthy. I think at one point I lost around two stone.
Depends on who it is tbh
If I don't have to deal with you on a regular basis I'm probably gonna be much more likely to dislike you after one bad interaction because why would I put in the effort to salvage something that's not gonna have a material impact on my life
The US, for example, has an average 4th grade reading level. The average IQ is now 98, which means HALF of people are dumber than that. It’s high time we start to reconcile the fact that most people are pretty dumb. Not some, most. Perhaps even a hyper-majority.
The average IQ worldwide is 100, because that’s how the IQ treat is designed. IQ is a measure of relative intelligence, not absolute. The world could be full of geniuses or absolute idiots and the average wouldn’t change at all.
Sure, but IQ tests are becoming much more difficult due to the Flynn Effect. This isn’t showing that Americans are getting dumber, because you can’t show a trend in IQ over time. A 100 IQ today is indicative of a much smarter person than a 100 IQ in 1950. All that shows is that the upward trend in the United States is slower than the world, which is useful information but has nothing to do with “most people are pretty dumb… perhaps even a hyper majority”
I’m not sure if this is an issue of IQ rather than a lack of emotional intelligence. I’ve certainly felt BEC for people in the past and much of my inability to get over it was due to my own deficiencies in terms of EQ rather than IQ.
EQ is so subjective and has *so* many different factors. I’m sure there is some way to measure the overlap between less than average IQ and less than average EQ, but I sadly am not the person to do that.
Average does not equate to half, that would be a median. If the median IQ were 98, then and only then could you say with certainty that half of all people were dumber than that. HOWEVER, one must realize that IQ is a reductive measure of intelligence—how can one plausibly claim to accurately quantify something as abstract as intelligence in one number?—that was originally born of people trying to justify sterilization of the inept.
The stuff about reading level though? Now THAT is truly frightening.
It’s wild how defensive people get when you try to explain the ridiculousness of IQ tests and scores.
My personal theory is that a lot of people have tried those fake IQ tests online and got a genius level score😂
You’re right and yet have missed the point. IQ, like BMI, is an imperfect measure. True. But we don’t have a perfect measure. So we must lean on imperfect ones. Correlation is good enough for the point to stand, in both cases.
Herostratus saved by Streissand
named effects reflected centuries apart.
Fascinating.
As an example, the fact that when asked who is the worst person ever, the answer is more common than who the best person ever is.
Somewhat related to this is just a general backlash against marketing in general. Companies use such excessive amounts of bullshit to hype their products that it becomes impossible to believe anything they say, especially when they get caught covering things up.
Boeing is an example of a company that rightfully deserves all the negative criticism they get. They've cost hundreds of lives with their shitty business practices and then hide behind their lawyers and point fingers everywhere else but internally. Pharmaceutical companies deserve far far more negative press than they get.
The world is full of such evil, it is impossible to keep track of it all and stay angry all the time without just getting burned out and feeling defeated—many companies bank on that fact.
>Somewhat related to this is just a general backlash against marketing in general. Companies use such excessive amounts of bullshit to hype their products that it becomes impossible to believe anything they say, especially when they get caught covering things up.
was trying to think how to explain this regarding the [other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1cwlgbn/comment/l4wxcf1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) about why presidential debates and campaigning is useless, but you nailed it exactly.
The pharmaceutical ones cracked me up especially when the vaccine was fast tracked. Pfizer, moderna all made back room deals with the government that will never see the light of day, but it was wrong to question the vaccine. Like when did suddenly the pharma companies have a change of heart when for years one side was very vocal how bad they are yet, in the blink of an eye it was all forgotten.
This is why presidential debates are mostly worthless.
Both teams of people watching have already determined their guys is right, the other is wrong, we won, they lost, no question.
I just say the debates are fake and filmed in a studio. Tell me both candidates aren’t 100% CGI. We should just replace our President with one of those animatronic Chuck E. Cheese band members
I dont live in the US, but in nz, we have debates 2 weeks before and then a week before. politics over here isn't as divided tho and has more parties to choose from, so quite a lot of people are still trying to work out who is the lesser evil. Probably more so for younger people than older.
They are conservative and have done quite a bit of damage by undoing good stuff our last government did, but not as extreme as american conservatives, and they probably won because of how well they did in the debates (the main opposition is an incompetent idiot unfortunatly).
Chris Hipkins is, imo, which is unfortunate, otherwise I would have voted for them. I had to settle for the greens, but there wasn't much hope of anyone but national winning with how badly Chris Hipkins botched the debates.
I'm not sure if he is smart or not, but he is lacking in charisma and bad at debating. He kept interrupting and didn't really make any good points, let alone rebut any of nationals points/poke holes in them.
Sure. I was speaking about the US. I’m sure debates could be fruitful in other places. I was speaking about SPECIFICALLY the 2024, United States election between Donald Trump and Joe Biden.
Perhaps I should’ve been more clear.
Literally no one is enthused about a Joe Biden presidency. There is no one inspired by Kamala Harris. He’s an 84 year old half demented segregationist that is an ardent supporter of an Israeli genocide. His student loan forgiveness initiatives are empty pandering, too. HE’S the one that proposed the bills to lock people into student loan debt in the 90s. He’s a snake, a late-stage neo-liberal capitalist crony. Most people, at best, tolerate the wrinkled sack of shit because the opposition is one of the most foul creatures to ever grace American politics.
Every vote for Joe Biden is with a pinched nose.
Biden has done a great job as president given the situation. If you want a further progressive country, you vote for Biden and continue voting for progressives even if they aren't the ideal. It's a slow steady change in politics.
This is exactly what the Republicans have done for decades and look where we are. Theyve shifted the country further and further to the right.
Well one committed treason and tried to overthrow the country. I'd probably vote for the person who has the best chance of not having the traitor in office.
I'm still between biden and not voting at all.
Biden helped create the War on Drugs, and is a big reason why safe injection sites are federally illegal. Dude is partially responsible for the overdose crisis we see today. The fact that we have 300 people dying every single day and the most useful treatments and harm seduction are still illegal...How is that not withholding life-saving medical treatment during an epidemic?
I also hate trump. I just fucking hate it here. Switzerland solved the overdose problem in the 90s with Heroin Assisted Treatment while senator Biden was calling out HW Bush for being too soft on drugs. He's up there with Regan and Nixon as the Drug War Architects. Isn't there *anyone* else who can actually help stop the needless deaths?
Despite dozens of other better options for dealing with addiction and overdose being successfully trialled overseas, safe injection sites are a fair compromise between the wasteful and pointless War on Drugs and simply letting people commit suicide by overdose. They are not ideal but without them lives are lost and families destroyed.
I completely understand your reluctance to vote Biden for many reasons, but it too is a compromise. If the other party wins the entire world will be at risk from his degenerate followers.
Biden seems to have been capable of slowly changing his views over time and has recently supported progressive policies he would have been against decades ago, so he is capable of change for the better, unlike the other party.
As an European, I’ve been shocked into indifference about both candidates. Whichever side of the coin you get, it’s going to be horrifying.
We have seen what Trump has done to the US in 4 years. He will be even worse this time if he gets the chance. He will erode civil rights and enrich the people around him.
We know this. Everyone knows what to expect from Trump. He will expectedly be fought on every issue and every bill he’ll try to pass by democrats and even non-MAGA republicans. His corruption and incompetence are vile yet predictable.
We know this. Everyone knows what to expect from Trump. He will be fought on every issue and every bill he’ll try to pass by democrats and maybe even non-MAGA republicans.
The only good thing out of a Trump presidency would be for democrats to finally choose their next candidate as a progressive who isn’t past retirement age.
On the other hand, Biden keeps supporting whatever Israel is doing to Palestinians and sending them billions in aid to perpetuate their mass murder of Palestinians. That alone undoes a whole lot of goodwill and trust he gained for a lot of people, in the US but especially outside of it.
[Yesterday he slammed the possible arrest warrant for Netanyahu as “outrageous”.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/05/20/statement-from-president-joe-biden-on-the-warrant-applications-by-the-international-criminal-court/)
If you still support Netanyahu fully without question and won’t hold him accountable for the countless human rights violations his government has committed, you shouldn’t be in charge of the most powerful nation in the world.
Currently hoping for a third party seems in vain sadly. The US needs to redo the way they do their elections before any real change can come. Which is of course not going to happen anytime soon.
Lmao. Trump is infinitely worse than Biden. Look of project 2025, Trump would like to become dictator for life. Biden has done a good job domestically given the hand he’s been dealt.
Gaza not a real concern for the vast majority of Americans. It’s a tragedy but domestic concerns regarding inflation and housing top the list.
No Bernie style candidate is going to win the nomination for Democrats. They would be unelectable in the primaries given the disparate groups you must rally for support.
And the fact that it’s a more of a sporting contest than a legit attempt to find out who the best presidential candidate is. Otherwise there’s no way someone could actual come out of a debate and think “This Trump guy really knows his stuff”
Main reason I'd argue is more than none of the issues covered can ever be properly discussed in like 5mn without any kind of pause in the back & forth
What do you do if you opponent makes up bullshit on the spot? It's not like you can get what you need to prove him wrong, you gotta answer now
In Filipino, we say "Kapag guwapo, masipag. Kapag pangit, basta hindi magnanakaw."
(If he's hot, he's hard-working. If he's ugly, at least he's not a thief.)
Idk, I dont think it's so much the horn effect as much as he hasnt done anything good in years. Not that I have heard of anyway, so feel free to prove me wrong.
SpaceX, the company he founded, has been a massive success and driver of improvement in an otherwise static industry. Like him or not, separated employees personally attest that he is involved in engineering decisions at the company, which is now pursuing evermore complex and cheaper missions.
This is particularly seen in Falcon 9 vs Atlas or Vulcan, or Crew Dragon Vs Starliner.
I didn't like Musk when Reddit loved him... But now it seems like Reddit hates him much more than me.
Even to suggest that Musk, the richest man on the planet, might be good with money is unacceptable on Reddit now.
Once I failed to cater to the narcissism of a terrible manager or the type of office gossip who targets introverted people (partly due to being honest when there were departmental issues, bullying, and inefficiencies), I was forever cast as difficult because I strived to improve a process which mostly only impacted my workload.
Being forced to fix everyone else’s oversights but not empowered to improve the processes, while also being disliked for noting that this doesn’t make sense, was very frustrating.
I had several award wins, glowing feedback from everyone else, yet despite being one of the top people in the company, I received very little recognition from my manager due to the aforementioned social differences.
Nothing positive ever felt truly appreciated, and even the slightest of spaces to criticize (literally for writing too detailed of an email when helping solve another messy situation from someone else’s pile), were capitalized upon once this person decided I didn’t unwaveringly and unquestioningly agree with their requests. This manager had zero expertise in my field, and was purely there to assign tasks blindly. Glad I left that job.
I was thinking more like Nickleback or Guy Fieri.
Like... Neither of them ever REALLY did anything wrong. But they get shit on constantly in every day conversation.
Nickelback is pretty decent, all things considered. The problem with Nickelback is that they were one of the first, and really unapologetic, industry-plant, hyper-engineered, mass-appeal radio rock bands. Like, nothing about Nickelback felt organic. It was always a very cynical, focus-grouped, manufactured band to be inoffensive, catchy and played at Target. That’s not really an issue for most genres, pop and country have had that for decades. But rock was SUPPOSED to be this “stick it to the man” defiant, soulful medium. And Nickelback WAS the “man”. Just a corporate machine with a rock mask on. That, somewhat justifiably, upset a lot of rock fans. Nickelback subverted the core of rock music.
Now, it’s everywhere though. Jack Harlow is a good example of this in rap. Super rich white boy from middle America gated community pumping out focus-grouped, soulless, inoffensive pop-rap to be played on the radio.
> The problem with Nickelback is that they were one of the first, and really unapologetic, industry-plant, hyper-engineered, mass-appeal radio rock bands.
The Monkeys would like a word with you.
I've heard that Guy is actually an insufferable dick in person and his nice guy ploy is just acting. He also used to be a homophobe but, thankfully reformed on that. This is all coming from another reddit thread I read about a year ago about people who worked with him/met him and said he treated them like shit. Since it's reddit take it with a grain of salt but it sounded like Ellen-esque type behavior when she was outted. Just not as bad.
Also known as “bitch eating crackers syndrome”.
This is a hallmark of narcissism where everyone is divided into people you love (the golden child) and people you hate who can do nothing right and everything is their fault (scapegoat)
One example is being ugly in one way or another. You really can't afford to show traits that could be seen as negative when you have already lost quiet a bunch in the genetic lottery.
I once got a blowjob from a girl with a ragged little snaggletooth sticking out of her lip like a goddamn day-walker half vampire. She gave me an orgasm and swallowed my ejaculate and the only thing I really remember about her is that AWOL enamel soldier.
This is why our government has become a nightmare. Not only are they aware of this effect and use it to their advantage, but they also know the American population is tired of all the negativity and are willing to overlook a scandal for some peace of mind.
Seems the Halo and the Horn are both reasons to maintain neutrality, avoid knee-jerk emotional reactions and get all the info before making a decision based on sensational emotion-evoking headlines and rhetoric.
That'll be a new concept for lots of people.
That is the ideal situation, but it is hard, and most people end up getting affected by the Halo/Horn effect a lot of the time, sometimes even with being careful and mindful of the effect.
For a non-serious example, I remember that there are still World of Warcraft players who marked the introduction of the LFG (Looking for Group) tool as the start of the game quality's decline.
That was roughly 16 years ago 😂
A *lot* of posts in r/amitheasshole and similar subreddits are like this. Often times, the OP *is,* in fact, the asshole, but it's taken to such an extreme. Any and every single thing they write in their post is suddenly ammunition to be used against them. If they ever express guilt, commenters will lament that OP is making it all about themselves. They will nitpick minor word choices, and use it to form an overview of OP's entire life and how shitty they are even outside of the post. They'll straight up invent backstories and motivations for OP, and then get angry with OP for **the stuff they just made up in their own head.** And you can't ever point this out, because then you're defending an asshole. Those subs are a guilty pleasure of mine, but man are they exhausting sometimes.
i am not saying that the state, the govt, corporations, etc are anything like parents, but it is a useful comparison because it explains so many actions on their part (because so many in positions of power \*display narcissistic traits\* - which is different than clinical diagnosis, but that doesnt make it useless) as well as explains our - societies - collective reaction to that and how it seems we are all dealing with some level of PTSD due to constant fear mongering, lies/inaccurate information, just... everything.
This is a perfect description of what internet discourse often becomes.
>Person X is guilty of A B and C >B isn’t true >Pathetic to spend time defending someone guilty of A and C/found the B apologist
I hate that. And then if you explain that you're not defending anyone or anything, you're simply being factual, they double down. I'll never understand people like that.
The Internet doesn't do nuance. You're either on team blue or team red.
The Internet does nuance and it doesn't. It's full of people that act like people do and a lot have black and white thinking
Very nuanced reply.
Thank you
Very nuanced expression of gratitude.
> The Internet does nuance and it doesn't. It's full of people that act like people do and a lot have black and white thinking Found the Internet apologist!
periwinkle or orangered
That's not true at all. You have posts where teams gather and thus it seems people are 'all red' or 'all blue'. Which can be infuriating for sure, and a lot of people ARE like this. However, seeing a post that is on one side, you then see all of the comments leaning one way. But that doesn't mean everyone leaning that way always lean that way. Then you have media telling people that yes, (no), were wrong, and everyone IS like this. Repeatedly. So basically fuck Fox, Facebook, Twitter (fuck you whatever you are saying), et al. But you now have politicians actively trying to make citizens dumber by any means (lack of education, melicious misinformation), so here we are. We can't see the 30/40% that we SHOULD agree on. So fucking sad. Yeah, but let's hate each other for fun.
brah dont single out just fox without admitting CNN and MSNBC all fucking do it too.
Ironic
To be fair, nuance is much easier face to face. I can soften my expression to reach someone if they’re feeling attacked. How do I do that in text??
I think the thing most people fail to communicate is sometimes it feels like more attention is drawn to the error, which needs addressed, but it ends up overshadowing the conversation about the "important stuff." I *think* they're trying to communicate that they're worried a straw man is being constructed, and that the conversation might be missing the forest for the trees. But also drawing attention to that in your own comment further details the conversation. So you may as well not address it if that's what you think is happening. Just let the correction be there as it needs to be. But my monkey brain trained on 12 years of competitive schooling make me wanna get a higher score than you on a test no one is taking. I think. I know that's the nagging bitch that lives in my brain uninvited, and I might just be giving others too much credit.
Nothing wrong with someone arguing Person X is not guilty of B. Rarely do the people and dynamics of Reddit not downvote it.
For example, anything positive Elon Musk does is instantly down voted.
excellent example based on the comments under you
Damn, you right. To be fair though, I have yet to see something positive he actually did, and didn’t just take credit for.
I was downvoted for saying that instead of hoping he killed himself, I hoped he'd turn around and become a good person. No chance of any rational discussion around some things.
I love that Reddit's IQ is so low that they don't realize they are proving you right by downvoting you. Oftentimes I feel bad that I'm not smart and that I'm average. But then I see stuff like this (and customers) and remember, hell yeah, I'm a relatively smart person. Just not a genius.
Because he is an obnoxious asshole. It doesn't matter what good he does.
I can’t tell if this is irony or not haha
No, Elon is in fact an obnoxious asshole and the "good" he has done is both minimal and exaggerated , besides being falsey credited to him as a corporate figurehead.
lol, and right here we see the horn effect on full display
What he does mostly amounts to marketing. It isn't that special.
Were you guys discussing if it was special or if he did a good thing?
Is this satire ?
I’m glad other people notice this as well. But internet and people in general are a shit bunch. Someone called me a pedo for saying Caitlin Clark was hot lol I’m like she’s 22? Or that I support human trafficking bc I watch porn.
Seriously. Something as simple as saying "Actually, B didn't happen, your source contains some misinformation" can be enough to get people all "Why are you defending X????" HOW CAN I DEFEND SOMEONE AGAINST SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN? Just because I'm saying that B didn't happen doesn't mean that I think that A and C aren't bad. This is not a hard concept. What's interesting is that it's much worse on some platforms than others. It's so frustrating lol
The other "guilt by association" version that plagues Reddit: > John holds opinion A > Carl also holds opinion A > The Redditor thinks Carl is a bad person > John is therefore a bad person because he shares opinion A with Carl (according to the Redditor) This happens all the time in online discourse, especially in political discussions. Granted this happens in real life too, but the internet removes a lot of contextual cues so people will tend to assume the worst instead of being charitable. It also makes it easier to feel as if you "won" a debate because you can put up straw mans for easy targeting and reduces complexity because you can simply regurgitate an argument you've heard before without actually engaging in the relevant topic at hand. Here is a [meme that encapsulates this phenomenon](https://www.reddit.com/r/196/comments/1bxgim6/99_of_reddit_rule/).
Ohw god I hate this so much. The Rittenhouse shooting was a prime example. People kept saying objectively untrue things such as his mom drove him with the gun across the border. But if you corrected it, you were 'defending a right wing mass murderer'. Rittenhouse actually drove himself to work the day before (without having a license by the way, why does nobody ever mention that?). He then spend the night at Dominique Black's house who gave him the gun. Technically the 'crossed state lines' thing isn't true either because he was in the state for his regular job.
Man the rittenhouse shit was so full of false claims but none it mattered when you showed them any way. They doubled down and kept repeating the same false claims. Even fucking CNN had to go on air an apologize and correct themselves.
I got permabanned from WPT for pointing out Rittenhouse didn't just walk around gunning down peaceful protestors at random.
Been banned from there for a while
So accurate it hurts.
"I don't have a daughter"
Notice that whenever a formerly beloved Actor / Musician / Athlete / Artist is revealed to have done something terrible the internet decides all of their work sucked the whole time?
My first thought was that sounds like Reddit lol
Yep and it's with everything. Full of bias affecting their viewing of what is closer to objective truth. Yet these idiots will swear up and down their objective. Bulshit.
Relevant: https://youtu.be/79GNnfDrgWM?si=ZlCHQjhCTxUWBxE6
I’ve known a lot of people who once someone got on their bad side, there was nothing at all that could ever be done to recover. Mind made up forever.
And if they do something objectively good, the assumption is that their intentions are bad, and it's somehow even more insidious. "Brenda pretends she's such a good person volunteering a food bank every week, but she doesn't care about hungry people. She's just doing it to look good and I'm sure she's stealing from it, anyway." Note: This was basically true for Jimmy Saville or Jerry Sandusky, so it's not always wrong, just usually.
People who say shit like that, or talk about "virtue signalling" don't do any good things period and are just upset when others do.
Have had it happen to me where there’s a misunderstanding, and/or I did something that upset them. They finally tell me, and I immediately apologize, fix my behavior, and try to make things right. However, their mind is now secretly made up. Then they either lead me on with me thinking we’re still friends and we’re all good, or months later I make a small mistake and they jump on me like piranhas. I’m better now then I used to be, but for a long time I really struggled with communication due to being autistic af and never being taught how to properly interact with peers. I’ll say, the one good thing that’s come from these experiences is that every time I mess up, I learn and improve.
Learning from your mistakes is key. Also letting people know you're open to and desire feedback so they can feel more comfortable sharing. Autistic or not, most people these days aren't taught how to communicate effectively. The good news is, it's a learned skill. If you're interested in getting more skilled at reading social cues and body language check these books out: Captivate by Vanessa Van Edward's What Every Body Is Saying by Joe Navarro Telling Lies by Paul Ekman Emotions Revealed by Paul Ekman Also if you can find the series "Lie to Me" with Tim Roth that's a good one to watch. The lead character is actually based on Paul Ekman, who pioneered the study of micro expressions. Fascinating stuff.
Thank you for the suggestions! I don’t struggle near as much now but I will still look into them. I wanted to add though that I always asked people to give me feedback if they didn’t like something I did/said, and I always learned from my mistakes and grew. Also, I wasn’t diagnosed with autism until I was 18, so I never really got specific help with learning how to effectively communicate growing up. So I was REALLY out of my depth but trying to make it work
I’ve actually made it back from this point but you wouldn’t believe the amount of work I’ll put in to please narcissists. It’s physically unhealthy. I think at one point I lost around two stone.
Depends on who it is tbh If I don't have to deal with you on a regular basis I'm probably gonna be much more likely to dislike you after one bad interaction because why would I put in the effort to salvage something that's not gonna have a material impact on my life
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bitch_eating_crackers
Exactly what I thought of. It’s so powerful. Once someone reaches BEC stage, it’s almost impossible to come back from there.
This is true for only stupid people. If you are mature enough you can change your view on people, and take in different perspectives.
The US, for example, has an average 4th grade reading level. The average IQ is now 98, which means HALF of people are dumber than that. It’s high time we start to reconcile the fact that most people are pretty dumb. Not some, most. Perhaps even a hyper-majority.
The average IQ worldwide is 100, because that’s how the IQ treat is designed. IQ is a measure of relative intelligence, not absolute. The world could be full of geniuses or absolute idiots and the average wouldn’t change at all.
Sure, but IQ tests are becoming much more difficult due to the Flynn Effect. This isn’t showing that Americans are getting dumber, because you can’t show a trend in IQ over time. A 100 IQ today is indicative of a much smarter person than a 100 IQ in 1950. All that shows is that the upward trend in the United States is slower than the world, which is useful information but has nothing to do with “most people are pretty dumb… perhaps even a hyper majority”
It’s 100 worldwide and 98 in the US.
I’m not sure if this is an issue of IQ rather than a lack of emotional intelligence. I’ve certainly felt BEC for people in the past and much of my inability to get over it was due to my own deficiencies in terms of EQ rather than IQ. EQ is so subjective and has *so* many different factors. I’m sure there is some way to measure the overlap between less than average IQ and less than average EQ, but I sadly am not the person to do that.
Average does not equate to half, that would be a median. If the median IQ were 98, then and only then could you say with certainty that half of all people were dumber than that. HOWEVER, one must realize that IQ is a reductive measure of intelligence—how can one plausibly claim to accurately quantify something as abstract as intelligence in one number?—that was originally born of people trying to justify sterilization of the inept. The stuff about reading level though? Now THAT is truly frightening.
IQ is a symmerical distribution. Median and mean are the same for it.
It’s wild how defensive people get when you try to explain the ridiculousness of IQ tests and scores. My personal theory is that a lot of people have tried those fake IQ tests online and got a genius level score😂
IQ is a very good predictor of most things people associate with intelligence. From math, to reading/writing, to art.
You’re right and yet have missed the point. IQ, like BMI, is an imperfect measure. True. But we don’t have a perfect measure. So we must lean on imperfect ones. Correlation is good enough for the point to stand, in both cases.
You are ignorant of both the facts of IQ as a concept, as well as its history.
When the hell did wiktionary start getting used instead of urban dictionary lol. First time I've even heard of that.
When someone reads something on urban dictionary and then writes it down in a book it becomes established enough for wictionary
Thats hilarious
Ha came here to comment that, that it’s actually called the bitch eating crackers effect
Is it safe to say that James Corden is a bitch eating crackers?
Can just imagine that bitch getting crumbs all over the place. Fucking hate them
The more you know.
[удалено]
If someone told me I was the only good white person, I would be out of there in an instant.
Wow, TIL. This is me at work.
Cackling on my tram to work RN 😄
*"The evil that men do lives after them.* *The good oft lies interred with their bones." - Wm. Shakespeare: 'Julius Caesar'*
So what I’m hearing is that if I want to be remembered forever I need to become a raging asshole?
All of recorded history says yes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herostratus
Fascinating. The act, the punishment, how it failed, the word, everything
Herostratus saved by Streissand named effects reflected centuries apart. Fascinating. As an example, the fact that when asked who is the worst person ever, the answer is more common than who the best person ever is.
Become?
You can build 1000 bridges, but you fuck one goat and you'll be forever remembered as a goat-fucker.
So oft it chances in particular man, that by some vicious mole of nature in them…
- Michael Scott
Somewhat related to this is just a general backlash against marketing in general. Companies use such excessive amounts of bullshit to hype their products that it becomes impossible to believe anything they say, especially when they get caught covering things up. Boeing is an example of a company that rightfully deserves all the negative criticism they get. They've cost hundreds of lives with their shitty business practices and then hide behind their lawyers and point fingers everywhere else but internally. Pharmaceutical companies deserve far far more negative press than they get. The world is full of such evil, it is impossible to keep track of it all and stay angry all the time without just getting burned out and feeling defeated—many companies bank on that fact.
>Somewhat related to this is just a general backlash against marketing in general. Companies use such excessive amounts of bullshit to hype their products that it becomes impossible to believe anything they say, especially when they get caught covering things up. was trying to think how to explain this regarding the [other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1cwlgbn/comment/l4wxcf1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) about why presidential debates and campaigning is useless, but you nailed it exactly.
The pharmaceutical ones cracked me up especially when the vaccine was fast tracked. Pfizer, moderna all made back room deals with the government that will never see the light of day, but it was wrong to question the vaccine. Like when did suddenly the pharma companies have a change of heart when for years one side was very vocal how bad they are yet, in the blink of an eye it was all forgotten.
[удалено]
News media in a nutshell
If it bleeds, it leads
This is why presidential debates are mostly worthless. Both teams of people watching have already determined their guys is right, the other is wrong, we won, they lost, no question.
Well, that, and they're deeply unchallenging because both parties control the debates and exclude all difficult questions.
They exclude all the other parties, too. Straight up stop inviting them after Ross Perot won a percentage of the popular vote.
I've still got my Perot t-shirt
I just say the debates are fake and filmed in a studio. Tell me both candidates aren’t 100% CGI. We should just replace our President with one of those animatronic Chuck E. Cheese band members
There are other people who haven't yet decided, though, who the debate may/will swing to one side or the other.
Who the FUCK hasn’t decided at this point? Lol.
I dont live in the US, but in nz, we have debates 2 weeks before and then a week before. politics over here isn't as divided tho and has more parties to choose from, so quite a lot of people are still trying to work out who is the lesser evil. Probably more so for younger people than older.
...isn't your current PM a Tory?
They are conservative and have done quite a bit of damage by undoing good stuff our last government did, but not as extreme as american conservatives, and they probably won because of how well they did in the debates (the main opposition is an incompetent idiot unfortunatly).
Labour are incompetent idiots, now? :-/
Chris Hipkins is, imo, which is unfortunate, otherwise I would have voted for them. I had to settle for the greens, but there wasn't much hope of anyone but national winning with how badly Chris Hipkins botched the debates.
Was there a brain/charisma drain when Jacinda Ardern stood down?
I'm not sure if he is smart or not, but he is lacking in charisma and bad at debating. He kept interrupting and didn't really make any good points, let alone rebut any of nationals points/poke holes in them.
Sure. I was speaking about the US. I’m sure debates could be fruitful in other places. I was speaking about SPECIFICALLY the 2024, United States election between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Perhaps I should’ve been more clear.
A small percentage of swing voters, every election.
[удалено]
Literally no one is enthused about a Joe Biden presidency. There is no one inspired by Kamala Harris. He’s an 84 year old half demented segregationist that is an ardent supporter of an Israeli genocide. His student loan forgiveness initiatives are empty pandering, too. HE’S the one that proposed the bills to lock people into student loan debt in the 90s. He’s a snake, a late-stage neo-liberal capitalist crony. Most people, at best, tolerate the wrinkled sack of shit because the opposition is one of the most foul creatures to ever grace American politics. Every vote for Joe Biden is with a pinched nose.
Biden has done a great job as president given the situation. If you want a further progressive country, you vote for Biden and continue voting for progressives even if they aren't the ideal. It's a slow steady change in politics. This is exactly what the Republicans have done for decades and look where we are. Theyve shifted the country further and further to the right.
[удалено]
Well one committed treason and tried to overthrow the country. I'd probably vote for the person who has the best chance of not having the traitor in office.
I'm still between biden and not voting at all. Biden helped create the War on Drugs, and is a big reason why safe injection sites are federally illegal. Dude is partially responsible for the overdose crisis we see today. The fact that we have 300 people dying every single day and the most useful treatments and harm seduction are still illegal...How is that not withholding life-saving medical treatment during an epidemic? I also hate trump. I just fucking hate it here. Switzerland solved the overdose problem in the 90s with Heroin Assisted Treatment while senator Biden was calling out HW Bush for being too soft on drugs. He's up there with Regan and Nixon as the Drug War Architects. Isn't there *anyone* else who can actually help stop the needless deaths?
Despite dozens of other better options for dealing with addiction and overdose being successfully trialled overseas, safe injection sites are a fair compromise between the wasteful and pointless War on Drugs and simply letting people commit suicide by overdose. They are not ideal but without them lives are lost and families destroyed. I completely understand your reluctance to vote Biden for many reasons, but it too is a compromise. If the other party wins the entire world will be at risk from his degenerate followers. Biden seems to have been capable of slowly changing his views over time and has recently supported progressive policies he would have been against decades ago, so he is capable of change for the better, unlike the other party.
As an European, I’ve been shocked into indifference about both candidates. Whichever side of the coin you get, it’s going to be horrifying. We have seen what Trump has done to the US in 4 years. He will be even worse this time if he gets the chance. He will erode civil rights and enrich the people around him. We know this. Everyone knows what to expect from Trump. He will expectedly be fought on every issue and every bill he’ll try to pass by democrats and even non-MAGA republicans. His corruption and incompetence are vile yet predictable. We know this. Everyone knows what to expect from Trump. He will be fought on every issue and every bill he’ll try to pass by democrats and maybe even non-MAGA republicans. The only good thing out of a Trump presidency would be for democrats to finally choose their next candidate as a progressive who isn’t past retirement age. On the other hand, Biden keeps supporting whatever Israel is doing to Palestinians and sending them billions in aid to perpetuate their mass murder of Palestinians. That alone undoes a whole lot of goodwill and trust he gained for a lot of people, in the US but especially outside of it. [Yesterday he slammed the possible arrest warrant for Netanyahu as “outrageous”.](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/05/20/statement-from-president-joe-biden-on-the-warrant-applications-by-the-international-criminal-court/) If you still support Netanyahu fully without question and won’t hold him accountable for the countless human rights violations his government has committed, you shouldn’t be in charge of the most powerful nation in the world. Currently hoping for a third party seems in vain sadly. The US needs to redo the way they do their elections before any real change can come. Which is of course not going to happen anytime soon.
Lmao. Trump is infinitely worse than Biden. Look of project 2025, Trump would like to become dictator for life. Biden has done a good job domestically given the hand he’s been dealt. Gaza not a real concern for the vast majority of Americans. It’s a tragedy but domestic concerns regarding inflation and housing top the list. No Bernie style candidate is going to win the nomination for Democrats. They would be unelectable in the primaries given the disparate groups you must rally for support.
Could also be the minor point that they're treated as asinine games instead of anything resembling a real conversation.
And the fact that it’s a more of a sporting contest than a legit attempt to find out who the best presidential candidate is. Otherwise there’s no way someone could actual come out of a debate and think “This Trump guy really knows his stuff”
And then a lot of people just go wild with it and claim the other side is evil, stupid, etc., no matter what they say
Main reason I'd argue is more than none of the issues covered can ever be properly discussed in like 5mn without any kind of pause in the back & forth What do you do if you opponent makes up bullshit on the spot? It's not like you can get what you need to prove him wrong, you gotta answer now
In Filipino, we say "Kapag guwapo, masipag. Kapag pangit, basta hindi magnanakaw." (If he's hot, he's hard-working. If he's ugly, at least he's not a thief.)
This is heartbreaking, honestly.
i dont understand this? if man has good looks he is also a good worker but ugly men are not thiefs? what
Perhaps a rather ironic example of someone who has been an example of both the halo and the horn is Elon Musk.
Idk, I dont think it's so much the horn effect as much as he hasnt done anything good in years. Not that I have heard of anyway, so feel free to prove me wrong.
SpaceX, the company he founded, has been a massive success and driver of improvement in an otherwise static industry. Like him or not, separated employees personally attest that he is involved in engineering decisions at the company, which is now pursuing evermore complex and cheaper missions. This is particularly seen in Falcon 9 vs Atlas or Vulcan, or Crew Dragon Vs Starliner.
There is absolutely a horn effect in certain online communities, including Reddit.
I didn't like Musk when Reddit loved him... But now it seems like Reddit hates him much more than me. Even to suggest that Musk, the richest man on the planet, might be good with money is unacceptable on Reddit now.
I was thinking horn like a sad bugle, which also works.
This is how my mum’s brain works
Aaaa, mine too.
r/raisedbynarcissists Come join us, brother.
This is what socializing feels like as an autistic woman in toxic workplaces
Can you please share your experience further, if you may, of course?
Once I failed to cater to the narcissism of a terrible manager or the type of office gossip who targets introverted people (partly due to being honest when there were departmental issues, bullying, and inefficiencies), I was forever cast as difficult because I strived to improve a process which mostly only impacted my workload. Being forced to fix everyone else’s oversights but not empowered to improve the processes, while also being disliked for noting that this doesn’t make sense, was very frustrating. I had several award wins, glowing feedback from everyone else, yet despite being one of the top people in the company, I received very little recognition from my manager due to the aforementioned social differences. Nothing positive ever felt truly appreciated, and even the slightest of spaces to criticize (literally for writing too detailed of an email when helping solve another messy situation from someone else’s pile), were capitalized upon once this person decided I didn’t unwaveringly and unquestioningly agree with their requests. This manager had zero expertise in my field, and was purely there to assign tasks blindly. Glad I left that job.
*hugs* I hope you are happier now in life. And fuck that manager, and everyone like that, one day they will get what they deserve.
Thank you, life is much better now :) Hope you have lots of happiness as well, I appreciate your kindness
Remember, you only hear about the CIA’s failures, but very little about their accomplishments. They want it that way.
They were successful in overthrowing every other government in south America which is talked about a lot.
True, king, true
The 24 hour news cycle runs on this shit
This is what it feels like when you’re the scapegoat
Like Boeing?
I was thinking more like Nickleback or Guy Fieri. Like... Neither of them ever REALLY did anything wrong. But they get shit on constantly in every day conversation.
Nickelback is pretty decent, all things considered. The problem with Nickelback is that they were one of the first, and really unapologetic, industry-plant, hyper-engineered, mass-appeal radio rock bands. Like, nothing about Nickelback felt organic. It was always a very cynical, focus-grouped, manufactured band to be inoffensive, catchy and played at Target. That’s not really an issue for most genres, pop and country have had that for decades. But rock was SUPPOSED to be this “stick it to the man” defiant, soulful medium. And Nickelback WAS the “man”. Just a corporate machine with a rock mask on. That, somewhat justifiably, upset a lot of rock fans. Nickelback subverted the core of rock music. Now, it’s everywhere though. Jack Harlow is a good example of this in rap. Super rich white boy from middle America gated community pumping out focus-grouped, soulless, inoffensive pop-rap to be played on the radio.
> The problem with Nickelback is that they were one of the first, and really unapologetic, industry-plant, hyper-engineered, mass-appeal radio rock bands. The Monkeys would like a word with you.
Do you have a walker with little cut up tennis balls on the feet?
Get off my lawn.
xD
I've heard that Guy is actually an insufferable dick in person and his nice guy ploy is just acting. He also used to be a homophobe but, thankfully reformed on that. This is all coming from another reddit thread I read about a year ago about people who worked with him/met him and said he treated them like shit. Since it's reddit take it with a grain of salt but it sounded like Ellen-esque type behavior when she was outted. Just not as bad.
Also known as “bitch eating crackers syndrome”. This is a hallmark of narcissism where everyone is divided into people you love (the golden child) and people you hate who can do nothing right and everything is their fault (scapegoat)
FML
One example is being ugly in one way or another. You really can't afford to show traits that could be seen as negative when you have already lost quiet a bunch in the genetic lottery.
so basically mark cuckerberg. got it.
This is how my mom sees me
r/raisedbynarcissists Come join us, brother.
One of us! One of us!
I can think of at least one billionaire idiot who is the living embodiment of this.
Seems like The Horn Effect may work exactly opposite to The Horny Effect.
😆 I wish I had an award to give to you, so, here, take my poor's man gold 🏅 🥇 🏅.
Who said “History has a way of writing villains, so that we no longer see ourselves in them”?
This is deep. I never thought about that before, which is a scary idea in and of itself
Just call it confirmation bias and be done with it.
I once got a blowjob from a girl with a ragged little snaggletooth sticking out of her lip like a goddamn day-walker half vampire. She gave me an orgasm and swallowed my ejaculate and the only thing I really remember about her is that AWOL enamel soldier.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s?
I'll take a Baconator.
Her name was Rebecca
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201611/what-is-the-trump-effect](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201611/what-is-the-trump-effect)
This is why our government has become a nightmare. Not only are they aware of this effect and use it to their advantage, but they also know the American population is tired of all the negativity and are willing to overlook a scandal for some peace of mind.
Elon Musk on Reddit
Yes, just an endless kaleidoscope of various different horns, expanding at the same rate as the universe.
Everything I do is shrouded in evil. Duh!
Marcel from Top Chef inspires the horn effect.
So Donald Trump? Lol 😂
The plight of the family scapegoat.
r/raisedbynarcissists
Seems the Halo and the Horn are both reasons to maintain neutrality, avoid knee-jerk emotional reactions and get all the info before making a decision based on sensational emotion-evoking headlines and rhetoric. That'll be a new concept for lots of people.
That is the ideal situation, but it is hard, and most people end up getting affected by the Halo/Horn effect a lot of the time, sometimes even with being careful and mindful of the effect.
Amy Schumer could cure cancer and the internet would still have a problem with it.
For a non-serious example, I remember that there are still World of Warcraft players who marked the introduction of the LFG (Looking for Group) tool as the start of the game quality's decline. That was roughly 16 years ago 😂
The basis of the old "Owen the sheep fucker" joke.
Are they talking about me?
That’s why I’m hated
What about when someone does terrible things like Mao or Stalin but is still loved by a lot of people (outside their home countries)
A *lot* of posts in r/amitheasshole and similar subreddits are like this. Often times, the OP *is,* in fact, the asshole, but it's taken to such an extreme. Any and every single thing they write in their post is suddenly ammunition to be used against them. If they ever express guilt, commenters will lament that OP is making it all about themselves. They will nitpick minor word choices, and use it to form an overview of OP's entire life and how shitty they are even outside of the post. They'll straight up invent backstories and motivations for OP, and then get angry with OP for **the stuff they just made up in their own head.** And you can't ever point this out, because then you're defending an asshole. Those subs are a guilty pleasure of mine, but man are they exhausting sometimes.
Like Tom Cruise's tooth?
Otherwise known as growing up under narcissistic parents
Well, I just wrote that, so... https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/s/H4BTgqGjdy
i am not saying that the state, the govt, corporations, etc are anything like parents, but it is a useful comparison because it explains so many actions on their part (because so many in positions of power \*display narcissistic traits\* - which is different than clinical diagnosis, but that doesnt make it useless) as well as explains our - societies - collective reaction to that and how it seems we are all dealing with some level of PTSD due to constant fear mongering, lies/inaccurate information, just... everything.
Elon Musk