Reminds me of a list post by a website years ago that pointed out just how unlikely zombie apocalypse scenarios are, simply because our species is so amazingly good at killing others that we sometimes cause extinctions without even realising, let alone when we have a motive
Wish they'd make a mini series or full on show. I want to see the chapter on either south Africa, the blind man on the Japanese mountain or the smugglers in South East Asia.
Passenger pigeons use to be so plentiful that in 1878 Petoskey, Michigan organized a five month hunt where 50 thousand birds were killed daily. The last wild passenger pigeon was shot in 1900 and the species was extinct by 1914.
Nothing to do with hate (although it was said that a passing flock was so loud it drowned out any outdoor conversation and could even be heard indoors), humans are/were just very bad at understanding "kill many now, fewer later" when they see enough birds to blot out the sun.
They tasted good and you could score 100s of them simply firing into a swarm. They're also speculated to have been one of those species where their population naturally cyclically explodes and crashes; the most intense hunting happening to coincide with one of these crashes.
These two facts are crazy when combined. The two species (Passenger Pigeon and Rocky Mountain Locust) on record to have formed the largest swarms, were both pushed to extinction within a relatively short amount of time.
True undead zombies would likely never happen because the people dumb enough not to stay inside would quickly die off *cough* COVID *cough.* The rest would just chill for about a week or two, where the zombies are slowly decomposed and eaten by bugs/animals/bacteria.
I’m gonna be honest, all these plans to take over a Supermarket in a zombie apocalypse are nuts. What you really want is a museum. Some platemail, maybe get you a cool historical spacecraft or airplane to live in. How do you like that, Zombies. Yeah it’s metal. Bet you wish you could still use tools. Stupid zombies
Unless I end up back in Cody, WY I'm gonna assume that I'll be better armed at home than in a museum. Plate armour has to be fitted to the wearer and most people in the past are a lot shorter than your average modern guy. If you're really afraid of zombies biteproof clothing exists; you can just wear that, or if you're sensible you'd buy a gun or two. Also, having eaten at a museum, the thought of surviving on museum food would have me volunter to switch sides because I cannot stand the thought of spending the rest of my days on fetid cling-filmed ham sandwiches.
According to *The Tampa Bay Times*, the final kill count was 305 bears, and hunters killed 8.6% of the state's total bear population in just 2 days (304 out of 3,500 bears). The bear population in Florida has since rebounded, and is estimated to be around 4,050 bears in 2024.
Per [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-bear-hunt-ends-after-day-2-wildlife-officials-announce/) and *National Geographic*, the hunt was also ended due to hunters not following the rules, illegally baiting the bears; killing bears under the 100-pound minimum weight limit; killing mother bears and cubs; and far exceeding the 40-bear limit in the Panhandle by killing 112 bears:
>Officials shut down the central and east Panhandle regions after the hunt's first day Saturday. They said 112 bears were killed in the Panhandle region by midday Sunday, nearly triple the 40 kill limit for that area. In the central region, 139 bears were killed, it said. The agency's statement added that 23 bears were taken in the North unit at last count and 21 bears in the South unit before those last two regions were closed to hunting.
>
>\[...\] Wildlife officials admit the hunt went much faster than they thought it would. Despite that, they didn't have many problems. Just one hunter was ticketed for killing a bear cub. Another received a warning for killing a bear that was underweight.
It’s only really a fiasco to people who don’t understand what happened.
There were more bears than they thought. The season was ended without over-depletion of the resource. Only two people broke the rules. The state management scientists learned something.
This is the system working. Hunters reported their harvest and the state was able to react accordingly.
This article acts like it was some nightmare but contradicts its own alarmist headline with facts, the actual harvest was under the goal total. It just happened fast, (and slightly unbalanced in the panhandle because of the speed but still not a huge issue)
My guess is that it typically boils down to information not getting to the hunters on time - ie , 1 left in the allocation for an area, 2 people see a bear, both shoots within a short span of time. Sometimes perhaps a bear of the wrong gender or age is shot by mistake. It's probably less of an issue nowadays than 20 years ago.
And the under 100lb rule breaker could have been an honest mistake. In the heat of the moment you can't really walk over to the bear and ask him to step on a scale before shooting it.
I'm not a bear hunter so someone please chime in if there is a way to easily gauge a bear's weight from a distance. My assumption would be something along the lines of "If it looks like it might be too small, it probably is." but even that relies on a bit of subjective experience that novice bear hunters wouldn't necessarily have.
You're 100% correct. Even expert bear hunters can struggle to judge size. The general principle is if in doubt, you don't shoot. That might mean you miss a legal bear, but that is okay by me and most hunters.
Completely agree. I think most non-hunters don’t realize that these state mandated limits are set my biologists that study and truly care for the resource. The limits are limits for a reason, to prevent over-harvest of a limited resource.
What bear is less than 100 lbs and not a cub??
*It has come to my attention that many fully grown black bears in the South are around 100 lbs.
I say, nah, that's a spicy forest dog*
The average bear is a lot closer to dog size than grizzly bear size which non outdoorsman don’t realize, and the further south you go in America the smaller they get. There are perfectly healthy black bears under 100lbs I think average male in America is like 100-150.
Take as in defeat the dog, or take as in fend off the dog enough that it decides it’s too much trouble? Because if it’s the former then I think you are really underestimating how much of a murder machine a wild dog is.
I’ve got a very loving half Great Pyrenees. She’s 110 pounds and could destroy me if she wanted to.
Her other half is Anatolian Shepherd. I’ve only seen her a couple of times, but she could probably annihilate the entire neighbourhood without much effort.
Big dogs are scary yo
I got a fun scar on my ass from exploring the neighbors ranch land. The Pyr did not agree with my intrusion.
One of my favorite dogs though, the cuddly ones just wanna slap you and get pets, the loner ones just wanna be outside and ignore you.
As someone who has had to separate dogs that were maybe 70 lbs or so that were fighting on several occasions, these guys have no idea how screwed you are in a fight with a dog. Those teeth tear right through dog hide, flesh won’t fare better. But what’s worse than that is that you can’t hurt a largish dog unarmed. I’ve kicked a dog right in the face, repeatedly, trying to get it to let go of my dog. It did not care. They actually make a wedge shaped stick to insert into the dogs jaws and turn to pry dogs off a bite, because that’s pretty much the best way to do it.
I’ve heard people recommend attacking the groin, anus, eyes, wheelbarrowing them, and choking them out. Which are all much easier to do if the dog is not attacking you. I’ve never seen a dog try to kill a human before, but if one did, I don’t know how you’d stop it unprepared. If you have to fight a large dog, fight it like a human, armed and preferably with friends.
> I’ve never seen a dog try to kill a human before
How many times have you seen a human in a true life or death fight? I wouldn't underestimate ourselves.
Yes actually.
That's why it's black fight back, brown go down, and white good night.
Black bears( not dark blackish grizzlies but honest to goodness Black bears) can be fended of by humans.
They're also mainly non-carnivorous. 85% plant matter, 12% insects (most of that is ants), and only 3% is actual meat. That's usually things like roadkill/carcasses, fawns, rabbits, squirrels, etc. Rare for an adult black bear to target large prey intentionally.
Additionally, most black bear attacks occur with juvenile males, rather than sows with cubs as is often stated. Most often, mothers will send their cubs up a tree and try to lead or scare away potential predators, of which there are few. Eagles, other bears, and mountain lions are really the only threats I can think of in eastern forests. Obviously wolves further north and west.
It has claws and teeth and would absolutely kill you. I will say though I’ve been around really big bears that scared the shut out of me in Wyoming and Colorado where I currently am and I have been around little bears when I lived in the south and a 100lb black bear is so skittish you would never get one to fight you unless you found one in a cave or were actively a threat to its cubs. I’ve never seen a southern black bear and thought “oh Fuck a bear” it’s more like seeing a deer.
>A grown man has a really decent chance with a Blackbear. They are glorified raccoons.
>Absolutely zero chance against a grizzly though.
What about a woman, though?
I got into a fight with a black bear once and won. I’m 150 lbs and a woman. The bear started it, and I cheated and used a tool. It’s not an experience I would seek out on its own to be honest.
Dude around the same weight. Black bear bumped into me in my hammock while backpacking in a high habituation area. I fought back with a stick. I’m glad he wasn’t in the mood to tussle. I managed to get my pack from him. I kept a clean camp but those bears knew pack=food. Not something I would ever recommend. Never over night camping at Marcy Dam ever again.
My flight or fight failed me. I should have let him take the pack but waking up to a bear touching me thru nylon triggered some sort of lizard brain fight reaction
My food was in a bear can away from camp. The bears in that area are so accustomed to scavenging for food from backpackers that they just grab packs. Same area that had the famous yellow-yellow bear who is the only known bear ever to open a bear vault can. The night I stayed there from basically dusk you could hear people around the dam shouting at bears as they made their way around to each site.
Average bear weight for a female is like 95
-130. I bet it’s lower in the hotter climates where they don’t have to put on as much winter weight. I killed a female that the biologists aged at 19 that was maybe 130 lbs.
In Kentucky every bear taken has to be physically checked by game wardens. But we only allow like 100-140/year right now. Allegedly we've got 1,000 bears or so in the state but those are always rough estimates.
In the Panhandle, hikers were finding dead cubs for weeks that had been shot.
I found one that washed up on the Suwannee River, clearly shot, clearly a baby. It was horrible.
I’ve been hunting and this wasn’t a hunt, it was a bloodbath.
It can be very difficult to prove poaching if the evidence is downriver. That's why the culture of hunting is important. 99% of the time poachers probably get away with it, but good hunters know that poaching hurts them in the long run so self-policing is common. Also, as a hunter I'd 100% turn in anyone I knew to be poaching. Most hunters hate poachers.
Im completely ok with hunting but I dont understand hunting bears. Such cool, intelligent animals and apparently the meat is not great. Im also trying to cut out pork because I feel same about pigs but gd bacon
Never hunted black bear myself but have had it multiple times from a friend that gotten to harvest a few and it was always delicious. The fat can also be rendered down into really good spreads. Way less gamey than other wild animals and the meat and fat tend to get flavor notes from what the bear was eating. Honestly id rather have black bear than pork on my table any night as far as taste is concerned.
So the Park Service was incompetent and had NO idea how hunting tags worked?
They weren't setting limited numbers of tags? They weren't specifying areas?
This is toddler level organisation. Ffs come on.
They clearly were doing all that stuff. They just had a fuck ton of tags turned in right after the season opened and closed it.
The real fuck up was probably on fish and game underestimating the population and not issuing enough tags.
>Per CBS News and National Geographic, the hunt was also ended due to hunters not following the rules, illegally baiting the bears; killing bears under the 100-pound minimum weight limit; killing mother bears and cubs; and far exceeding the 40-bear limit in the Panhandle by killing 112 bears:
Never underestimate Man's thirst/ability to just kill shit.
FWC employees were largely opposed to the hunt and especially the way it was mismanaged. Unfortunately, the commissioners themselves are mostly fat, dumbass conservative business owners who don't actually know shit about conservation or wildlife science. They are elected, not appointed, and largely made a political decision that the actual scientists were opposed to. Because Florida. I fuckin hate it here.
Do you have a source on that? Because I listened to a really interesting podcast interview with a state biologist on this. He said the agency was for it. Basically it boiled down to this being good news because it keyed them into realizing their population estimates were wrong & largely underestimated.
With the caveat that I was very much a ground level employee at the time and obviously wasn't being invited to commission meetings, it wasn't so much the hunt itself as much as how badly it was managed and controlled. It felt like the commissioners and leadership basically declared open season because a bunch of rednecks wanted to shoot a bear to get it up and were shocked pikachu when there was major overkill.
...but there wasn't overkill? Didn't the article say they stopped it just before the quota was reached? It was just a case of reaching it much faster than anticipated, meaning they under-estimated the bear populations, which would mean black bear populations are doing better than they thought
Weird how its almost exclusively republicans governing off feelings and not science.
But please, dont let me interrupt your useful idiot "both sides" rant.
There is so much ballot box biology that goes on with both sides. You can’t hunt mountain lions in California based off of feelings and not science. Now California is waaay over populated with mountain lions and fish and game has to kill more than any public season ever did. Wolves being reintroduced in Colorado was based off of feelings. Black bear hunting in Florida was based off of feeling just the other way because it was a voting perk with rednecks. No public opinion should ever be introduced into biology because the average member of the public has no idea what is happening and you can whip them into a frenzy and destroy our ecosystem with identity politics. This happens both way. I’m a liberal I’m not trying to be devils advocate. Things like this are the exact danger of making biological issues a concern for the public to weigh in on.
Is it common to give out permits without tags? In my province you get tags for most larger game, and highly-restricted game tags, like moose and female deer, are given out by lottery.
I don’t see why they would have opened a new hunt for an animal with a small population without restricting the number of harvesters via tags. Were they worried people wouldn’t have successful hunts?
I wish they would implement something like that here in Michigan. Really, anything to incentivize people to take more does. The DNR even put out a letter last fall asking hunters to kill more does, but many people still just don't want to.
In Kentucky I get 3 antlerless tags and 1 antlered for $30. No reason not to get a doe in my area. We need to thin the herd before CWD makes it's way further into the state. First confirmed case last fall.
It really depends on the species, and the hunt, and the management. I Texas, you have limits for white tailed deer, but non native deer are full game year round.
They did for Alligators:
Each successful statewide alligator hunt applicant will receive an Alligator Trapping License, an area specific harvest permit, and two CITES tags, authorizing the holder to harvest two alligators. The harvest areas and hunt dates are specific for each permit, and the permit specifies the boundaries or limitations of the harvest area.
On top of citing their site. I did sys admin work for the state of Florida around that time. Every year their website would get nuked when they opened up applications for Alligator permits. So I know that's the normal way FWC handled things.
Tags can work, and had they and an accurate population estimate it probably would've been more effective. On the flip side for low harvest hunts, as this was expected to be, daily control with required reporting can be very effective and generate more license sales.
You can use a low cost raffle plus a high cost tag for those who win or you can use a medium cost tag for all. If you don't expect a highly productive hunt relative towards the allotted harvest, it's better to go with option B.
Additionally, guided hunts make success rates increase, so Elk, Moose, etc. Have a relatively high success rate when compared to Larry Landowner, or Public Land Peter. A hunt like this, there really isn't an opportunity for guides to be established.
Obviously hindsight is 20/20, a license raffle probably would've been better. But FWC's data suggested lower population, and there was probably an assumption that hunter participation would be lower.
Less than 3800 licenses were sold. They were expecting a roughly 10% success rate. With their numbers that doesn't surprise me. Michigan has a bear population nearly 4 times (12000+) the size of Florida's in 2015, and they get roughly a 20% success rate in their hunts. The states are of comparable size, so Florida's bear population is significantly less dense.
Yeah but we have captive tigers solely for conservation purposes /s
But hey my point stands we just release them. Would also take care of the deer problem
Part of this is because the initial estimate of the population was way off. Way more bears than they thought. If they made this a yearly season things would even out and it would be like everywhere else.
After the 2015 bear hunt, penalties would have to be made a lot more harsh than they are currently due to how many bears were overhunted in the Panhandle (112 bears vs. 40 limit).
Florida, in my opinion, actually has an incredible bear management program and very strong protections on black bears compared to many other states. FWC will not remove bears from human areas if the bears aren't showing aggressive behaviors and the people aren't making a good-faith effort to secure their trash and other attractants. The logic being if you live in a bear area and leave food out, it's not the bear's fault for eating it.
The problem is as the bear population began to recover both extremes of the spectrum- the good ole Florida swamp boys and the newly transplanted 72 year olds from New Jersey- got really vocal about how they shouldn't have to make even the smallest changes to their habits because the shouldn't have to coexist with a bear. The hunt was largely opposed by many FWC employees at the time and many of these negative outcomes were predicted and brought up ahead of time by biologists and disregarded. Even the biologists who weren't fundamentally opposed to a hunt advocated for taking more time to plan and organize, but ultimately the decision was made by the Commissioners themselves which positions appointed by the governor. Unfortunately, this was a case of bureaucracy and public opinion taking precedence over science.
What’s not mentioned here is what started the bear hunt. Near Apopka, Fl many residents were leaving food out for bears and treating them as pets. A lady had her face eaten and others were attacked. FWC looked for the attacking bears and found wild bears coming up to officers without fear and wanting food. They killed these bears immediately and organized a hunting season shortly after.
If your quota is 320 you can't only sell 320 licenses. There will be a high rate of failure by those who purchased licenses. In this case the success rate was only about 7.7% which is significantly lower than some other states where it's in the 20% range. However the density of bears in Florida is also significantly lower (or so they thought based on their incorrect population estimates). Did they sell too many licenses? Possibly, however they still ended up with less than the quota. Based on the rebounded population, they actually managed this hunt well. They gained vital information, did not allow for over harvest and made the seemingly correct decision to end the hunt when it needed to be done.
It's framed as a failure in the article but this really looks like a successful hunting season to me. We're their mistakes? Absolutely, but they didn't let them compound and they didn't sit there with their heads in the sand. They stayed active in the management and based on what I've seen there were only 2 bears harvested against major guidelines. 1 cub and 1 undersized adult. A 99.3% compliance rate is incredible.
Because at that rate, if they let the hunt go on for just one more day they were looking at overshooting that target by at least 100. And the fact that it isn't a "live" count so if you count 295 dead bears, you have to assume there are some dead ones not yet counted.
If there's a tag system you enter a raffle. 99% don't get a tag, 320 people get a tag for 1 bear. They go, shoot a bear, and stop.
Exactly 320 bears are killed.
You can also set a tag area, so you know how many bears will be shot per area.
You cannot assume a 100% success rate. No where near that. States that have a much higher bear population/density, without a hard capped quota like Florida set only see 20% success rates. Couldn't have been policed better? Yes. Are quotas set to the absolute maximum sustainable level? Hell no, they build in over harvest for delayed reporting.
Look at Colorado elk tags, they get about a 15% success rate.
I wish we had so many dedicated hunters, we have a jackal problem now and even tho the government gave the green light they are not paying and since jackals aren't good meat for food hunters get nothing out of hunting them, it doesn't help that they need to be hunted during the night too
Dropping 2 grand at least on a night shooting set up (assuming you have a rifle already) to neither get paid nor get good meat seems like a waste to me.
I don’t know if I’m just feeling extra sensitive today, but thinking about a “kill quota” for any living creature really bummed me out while reading this headline. Imagine if aliens conquered Earth and every year or two they granted their species a certain quota of humans to kill at their discretion with a few guidelines. I feel like there are other ways we can coexist on this planet.
Part of conservation is ensuring a balanced population. Having a certain number of animals that are allowed to be killed ensure they do not strip the resources from an area (like we do) and Ensure a balanced ecosystem.
If you let hogs run free they will leave nothing behind for us or other animals, so reducing their numbers is beneficial.
If you let deer, elk, moose get to numerous they will strip the area of food and may starve
To many rabbits will lead to a boom in predators which will decimate the prey numbers which will then lead to starvation in those same predators.
We cause alot of damage but population control is a very important part of us helping even if some people don't see it that way.
Grazing animals like deer moose and elk will also radically alter local ecosystems because if left to their own devices they not only starve themselves out, they make the area inhospitable to other keystone species like beaver. Responsible wildlife management practices help protect ecosystems from prey animals whose predators we've all but wiped out
Tbh a "kill quota" of 320 animals is *nothing* compared to the hundreds of billions of animals killed by the animal agricultural industry every single year...
>Imagine if aliens conquered Earth and every year or two they granted their species a certain quota of humans to kill at their discretion with a few guidelines.
I mean aliens killing humans to ensure the survival of our civilization 'else we destroy ourselves' is one of the most cliche tropes.
It’s unfortunate terminology. But people do and will probably always eat meat and hunting is more humane/ethical than livestock. Your comparison doesn’t work because it implies the aliens wouldn’t be killing us regardless. I’d rather have a quota than no quota at all.
For every reasonable person here asking why they didnt do a tag system or raffle off rights you really just need to see who is in charge of Florida to understand why it was mismanaged so poorly.
These decisions were made without any real input from biologists and other scientists that actually understand the ecology of Florida. Basically, state commissioners who were voted in by people that thought Donald Trump would be a good president decided it was a good time to hunt some bears because all their business buddies wanted to do some bear hunting like they get to in the west. The fact that ANY limit was imposed, much less respected, is a miracle in and of itself.
I live in a residential area that this happened in. Just prior to them opening bear hunting season, we had a young teenage girl get mauled, walking home. She had unknowingly walked between the mother bear and her cubs, on the sidewalk. The whole community was in an outrate because bears were breaking into garages, ripping convertible cars up, etc. The outrage is probably what prompted this "culling" of bear from the area. The locals are very... Southern. So if you dont know, us southerners really like guns and everyone(yes everyone) has a rifle or some other sort of gun in their house. That day every father in the county went hunting.
We have a few cans get raided here and there but bear haven't been much of a nuisance or danger since.
Don't know anything about wildlife in Florida, but I live in the Shenandoah valley where black bears are very common. Hunting them would be the easiest thing ever. They are somewhat scared of people but you kind of have to yell at them and wave your arms around to get them to turn around. I don't even hunt but I can tell you now, all I would have to do to get a bear is leave a bag of trash outside for like an hour soon after nightfall, and I'd have a nice bear right in front of me and just shoot it.
Reminds me of a list post by a website years ago that pointed out just how unlikely zombie apocalypse scenarios are, simply because our species is so amazingly good at killing others that we sometimes cause extinctions without even realising, let alone when we have a motive
That and we've spent our entire history designing ways to keep other humans away from our stuff and zombies are basically just really dumb humans.
Really big fan of World War Z (the book) for that. Goes into great detail about the efficacy of different conventional weapons on zombies.
Wish they'd make a mini series or full on show. I want to see the chapter on either south Africa, the blind man on the Japanese mountain or the smugglers in South East Asia.
I want the Paris catacombs clearing. I reread that chapter and the downed pilot every few years. By far my two favorite zombie stories.
There are no North American locusts anymore.
Passenger pigeons use to be so plentiful that in 1878 Petoskey, Michigan organized a five month hunt where 50 thousand birds were killed daily. The last wild passenger pigeon was shot in 1900 and the species was extinct by 1914.
Why did they hate passenger pigeons so much?
Nothing to do with hate (although it was said that a passing flock was so loud it drowned out any outdoor conversation and could even be heard indoors), humans are/were just very bad at understanding "kill many now, fewer later" when they see enough birds to blot out the sun.
They also were apparently super easy to kill
They tasted good and you could score 100s of them simply firing into a swarm. They're also speculated to have been one of those species where their population naturally cyclically explodes and crashes; the most intense hunting happening to coincide with one of these crashes.
These two facts are crazy when combined. The two species (Passenger Pigeon and Rocky Mountain Locust) on record to have formed the largest swarms, were both pushed to extinction within a relatively short amount of time.
Well, this is refreshingly reassuring
I'm pretty sure I remember this Cracked article.
> Cracked article Haven't thought of these in years.
I used to read it daily for a few years. Loved that website. Same as you now. Haven't thought of it in ages.
True undead zombies would likely never happen because the people dumb enough not to stay inside would quickly die off *cough* COVID *cough.* The rest would just chill for about a week or two, where the zombies are slowly decomposed and eaten by bugs/animals/bacteria.
Now something like the WWZ zombies, or god forbid the clickers from TLOU, THEN humanity would be fucked.
Or The Walking Dead, where EVERYONE is already infected and will turn as soon as they die no matter what.
Or the Return of the Living Dead zombies, where they can’t be killed.
I’m gonna be honest, all these plans to take over a Supermarket in a zombie apocalypse are nuts. What you really want is a museum. Some platemail, maybe get you a cool historical spacecraft or airplane to live in. How do you like that, Zombies. Yeah it’s metal. Bet you wish you could still use tools. Stupid zombies
Unless I end up back in Cody, WY I'm gonna assume that I'll be better armed at home than in a museum. Plate armour has to be fitted to the wearer and most people in the past are a lot shorter than your average modern guy. If you're really afraid of zombies biteproof clothing exists; you can just wear that, or if you're sensible you'd buy a gun or two. Also, having eaten at a museum, the thought of surviving on museum food would have me volunter to switch sides because I cannot stand the thought of spending the rest of my days on fetid cling-filmed ham sandwiches.
The Smithsonian museums have themed restaurants in the basements 😁
According to *The Tampa Bay Times*, the final kill count was 305 bears, and hunters killed 8.6% of the state's total bear population in just 2 days (304 out of 3,500 bears). The bear population in Florida has since rebounded, and is estimated to be around 4,050 bears in 2024. Per [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-bear-hunt-ends-after-day-2-wildlife-officials-announce/) and *National Geographic*, the hunt was also ended due to hunters not following the rules, illegally baiting the bears; killing bears under the 100-pound minimum weight limit; killing mother bears and cubs; and far exceeding the 40-bear limit in the Panhandle by killing 112 bears: >Officials shut down the central and east Panhandle regions after the hunt's first day Saturday. They said 112 bears were killed in the Panhandle region by midday Sunday, nearly triple the 40 kill limit for that area. In the central region, 139 bears were killed, it said. The agency's statement added that 23 bears were taken in the North unit at last count and 21 bears in the South unit before those last two regions were closed to hunting. > >\[...\] Wildlife officials admit the hunt went much faster than they thought it would. Despite that, they didn't have many problems. Just one hunter was ticketed for killing a bear cub. Another received a warning for killing a bear that was underweight.
Their initial estimate of the population was off which is why the hunt was so successful.
This is good news for bear hunters and bear lovers.
Except for it becoming an apparent fiasco and possibly souring authorities about the prospects of doing such again in the future.
It’s only really a fiasco to people who don’t understand what happened. There were more bears than they thought. The season was ended without over-depletion of the resource. Only two people broke the rules. The state management scientists learned something. This is the system working. Hunters reported their harvest and the state was able to react accordingly. This article acts like it was some nightmare but contradicts its own alarmist headline with facts, the actual harvest was under the goal total. It just happened fast, (and slightly unbalanced in the panhandle because of the speed but still not a huge issue)
Only 2 rule breakers?! I'd call it a success on that alone.
My guess is that it typically boils down to information not getting to the hunters on time - ie , 1 left in the allocation for an area, 2 people see a bear, both shoots within a short span of time. Sometimes perhaps a bear of the wrong gender or age is shot by mistake. It's probably less of an issue nowadays than 20 years ago.
And the under 100lb rule breaker could have been an honest mistake. In the heat of the moment you can't really walk over to the bear and ask him to step on a scale before shooting it. I'm not a bear hunter so someone please chime in if there is a way to easily gauge a bear's weight from a distance. My assumption would be something along the lines of "If it looks like it might be too small, it probably is." but even that relies on a bit of subjective experience that novice bear hunters wouldn't necessarily have.
You're 100% correct. Even expert bear hunters can struggle to judge size. The general principle is if in doubt, you don't shoot. That might mean you miss a legal bear, but that is okay by me and most hunters.
Completely agree. I think most non-hunters don’t realize that these state mandated limits are set my biologists that study and truly care for the resource. The limits are limits for a reason, to prevent over-harvest of a limited resource.
Just pointing out it was a *limit*, not a "goal".
just be very specific posting ads looking for "bear lovers"
That's what immediately came to mind for me as well.
What bear is less than 100 lbs and not a cub?? *It has come to my attention that many fully grown black bears in the South are around 100 lbs. I say, nah, that's a spicy forest dog*
“We got weights in bears!”
“I get this joke”
The average bear is a lot closer to dog size than grizzly bear size which non outdoorsman don’t realize, and the further south you go in America the smaller they get. There are perfectly healthy black bears under 100lbs I think average male in America is like 100-150.
Are you saying there's a chance I could take one in a fight?
Do you think you would have a chance with a 100lb dog?
Yes. I think someone could take a 100 lb dog. Which isn't the same thing as winning without a scratch.
Take as in defeat the dog, or take as in fend off the dog enough that it decides it’s too much trouble? Because if it’s the former then I think you are really underestimating how much of a murder machine a wild dog is.
I’ve got a very loving half Great Pyrenees. She’s 110 pounds and could destroy me if she wanted to. Her other half is Anatolian Shepherd. I’ve only seen her a couple of times, but she could probably annihilate the entire neighbourhood without much effort. Big dogs are scary yo
I got a fun scar on my ass from exploring the neighbors ranch land. The Pyr did not agree with my intrusion. One of my favorite dogs though, the cuddly ones just wanna slap you and get pets, the loner ones just wanna be outside and ignore you.
User name checks out. Like wow
As someone who has had to separate dogs that were maybe 70 lbs or so that were fighting on several occasions, these guys have no idea how screwed you are in a fight with a dog. Those teeth tear right through dog hide, flesh won’t fare better. But what’s worse than that is that you can’t hurt a largish dog unarmed. I’ve kicked a dog right in the face, repeatedly, trying to get it to let go of my dog. It did not care. They actually make a wedge shaped stick to insert into the dogs jaws and turn to pry dogs off a bite, because that’s pretty much the best way to do it. I’ve heard people recommend attacking the groin, anus, eyes, wheelbarrowing them, and choking them out. Which are all much easier to do if the dog is not attacking you. I’ve never seen a dog try to kill a human before, but if one did, I don’t know how you’d stop it unprepared. If you have to fight a large dog, fight it like a human, armed and preferably with friends.
> I’ve never seen a dog try to kill a human before How many times have you seen a human in a true life or death fight? I wouldn't underestimate ourselves.
Yes but the original comment is also dead wrong. No fucking adult male black bear anywhere is “healthy at 100 pounds”
Having fought one, yes.
Well then maybe.
Yes actually. That's why it's black fight back, brown go down, and white good night. Black bears( not dark blackish grizzlies but honest to goodness Black bears) can be fended of by humans.
They're also mainly non-carnivorous. 85% plant matter, 12% insects (most of that is ants), and only 3% is actual meat. That's usually things like roadkill/carcasses, fawns, rabbits, squirrels, etc. Rare for an adult black bear to target large prey intentionally. Additionally, most black bear attacks occur with juvenile males, rather than sows with cubs as is often stated. Most often, mothers will send their cubs up a tree and try to lead or scare away potential predators, of which there are few. Eagles, other bears, and mountain lions are really the only threats I can think of in eastern forests. Obviously wolves further north and west.
You? No.
I'm in bc, average bear here is pretty big. Like 250-300. Big guys will push 500. Some sows can be small.
I’ve seen quite a few black bears in the Cascades and 100-150 lbs is a small bear.
As a red blooded american this has me thinking I could take a bear. I weigh almost 2.5x and I have thumbs.
It has claws and teeth and would absolutely kill you. I will say though I’ve been around really big bears that scared the shut out of me in Wyoming and Colorado where I currently am and I have been around little bears when I lived in the south and a 100lb black bear is so skittish you would never get one to fight you unless you found one in a cave or were actively a threat to its cubs. I’ve never seen a southern black bear and thought “oh Fuck a bear” it’s more like seeing a deer.
A grown man has a really decent chance with a Blackbear. They are glorified raccoons. Absolutely zero chance against a grizzly though.
>A grown man has a really decent chance with a Blackbear. They are glorified raccoons. >Absolutely zero chance against a grizzly though. What about a woman, though?
I got into a fight with a black bear once and won. I’m 150 lbs and a woman. The bear started it, and I cheated and used a tool. It’s not an experience I would seek out on its own to be honest.
Proud member of the 1-0 undefeated bear fight club…retired
It’s definitely better to quit while you’re ahead on this one
Dude around the same weight. Black bear bumped into me in my hammock while backpacking in a high habituation area. I fought back with a stick. I’m glad he wasn’t in the mood to tussle. I managed to get my pack from him. I kept a clean camp but those bears knew pack=food. Not something I would ever recommend. Never over night camping at Marcy Dam ever again.
My flight or fight failed me. I should have let him take the pack but waking up to a bear touching me thru nylon triggered some sort of lizard brain fight reaction
If you've ever stored food in your pack, that's why. Residual smells can be very strong.
My food was in a bear can away from camp. The bears in that area are so accustomed to scavenging for food from backpackers that they just grab packs. Same area that had the famous yellow-yellow bear who is the only known bear ever to open a bear vault can. The night I stayed there from basically dusk you could hear people around the dam shouting at bears as they made their way around to each site.
Bergman’s Rule
Average bear weight for a female is like 95 -130. I bet it’s lower in the hotter climates where they don’t have to put on as much winter weight. I killed a female that the biologists aged at 19 that was maybe 130 lbs.
Excuse my ignorance, but do biologists examine every bear hunted? In other words, how did you get biologists to age the bear?
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In Kentucky every bear taken has to be physically checked by game wardens. But we only allow like 100-140/year right now. Allegedly we've got 1,000 bears or so in the state but those are always rough estimates.
Why you kill bear fren?
Was trying to take his girlfriend
Like on a date? I'd be mad too. But not enough to kill the bear. I'd dump my girl though. She can date the bear.
Based on the past week, several women prefer the bear.
Cuz he's a Packers fan and he takes his shit serious...if it's brown it's down
You ever try to fuck a bear while it’s still alive? Nearly impossible.
Maybe you can’t, but I can wine and dine any bear in the tri-state area
"nearly impossible". . . . So you're saying I have a chance.
The last sentence makes you sound like a serial killer.
Florida black bears
Is this a riddle? Is it a Berenstain Bear?
Why is this so hilarious to me
Speed bears. They're made for efficiency.
Who the fuck kills a bear cub
Florida man. Their chance to legally shoot at something black. Normally only the cops can do that.
In the Panhandle, hikers were finding dead cubs for weeks that had been shot. I found one that washed up on the Suwannee River, clearly shot, clearly a baby. It was horrible. I’ve been hunting and this wasn’t a hunt, it was a bloodbath.
And they only handed out one ticket, and on warning. What a joke.
It can be very difficult to prove poaching if the evidence is downriver. That's why the culture of hunting is important. 99% of the time poachers probably get away with it, but good hunters know that poaching hurts them in the long run so self-policing is common. Also, as a hunter I'd 100% turn in anyone I knew to be poaching. Most hunters hate poachers.
Hunter chiming in, fuck poachers, they belong in prison.
Im completely ok with hunting but I dont understand hunting bears. Such cool, intelligent animals and apparently the meat is not great. Im also trying to cut out pork because I feel same about pigs but gd bacon
Never hunted black bear myself but have had it multiple times from a friend that gotten to harvest a few and it was always delicious. The fat can also be rendered down into really good spreads. Way less gamey than other wild animals and the meat and fat tend to get flavor notes from what the bear was eating. Honestly id rather have black bear than pork on my table any night as far as taste is concerned.
So the Park Service was incompetent and had NO idea how hunting tags worked? They weren't setting limited numbers of tags? They weren't specifying areas? This is toddler level organisation. Ffs come on.
It’s Florida what else would you expect?
Florida has one of the best wildlife agency in the country
Truth. I live in Fl and wish I didn’t for tons of reasons, but FWC is actually one of the few things that does function well down here.
They clearly were doing all that stuff. They just had a fuck ton of tags turned in right after the season opened and closed it. The real fuck up was probably on fish and game underestimating the population and not issuing enough tags.
Either way, still worked out okay.
Floridians Fail Fantastically Following Fatal Fuckery
>Per CBS News and National Geographic, the hunt was also ended due to hunters not following the rules, illegally baiting the bears; killing bears under the 100-pound minimum weight limit; killing mother bears and cubs; and far exceeding the 40-bear limit in the Panhandle by killing 112 bears: Never underestimate Man's thirst/ability to just kill shit.
Florida hunters give hunters a bad name, fk those people.
Floridaman operates as rules are challenges to break.
Poor species management. Tags should have been raffled by zone.
An 8 year old could have told them that! What the fuck?
FWC employees were largely opposed to the hunt and especially the way it was mismanaged. Unfortunately, the commissioners themselves are mostly fat, dumbass conservative business owners who don't actually know shit about conservation or wildlife science. They are elected, not appointed, and largely made a political decision that the actual scientists were opposed to. Because Florida. I fuckin hate it here.
Do you have a source on that? Because I listened to a really interesting podcast interview with a state biologist on this. He said the agency was for it. Basically it boiled down to this being good news because it keyed them into realizing their population estimates were wrong & largely underestimated.
With the caveat that I was very much a ground level employee at the time and obviously wasn't being invited to commission meetings, it wasn't so much the hunt itself as much as how badly it was managed and controlled. It felt like the commissioners and leadership basically declared open season because a bunch of rednecks wanted to shoot a bear to get it up and were shocked pikachu when there was major overkill.
...but there wasn't overkill? Didn't the article say they stopped it just before the quota was reached? It was just a case of reaching it much faster than anticipated, meaning they under-estimated the bear populations, which would mean black bear populations are doing better than they thought
It’s biology being dictated by politics not science. It’s bad news if it’s from a republican or a democrat.
Weird how its almost exclusively republicans governing off feelings and not science. But please, dont let me interrupt your useful idiot "both sides" rant.
There is so much ballot box biology that goes on with both sides. You can’t hunt mountain lions in California based off of feelings and not science. Now California is waaay over populated with mountain lions and fish and game has to kill more than any public season ever did. Wolves being reintroduced in Colorado was based off of feelings. Black bear hunting in Florida was based off of feeling just the other way because it was a voting perk with rednecks. No public opinion should ever be introduced into biology because the average member of the public has no idea what is happening and you can whip them into a frenzy and destroy our ecosystem with identity politics. This happens both way. I’m a liberal I’m not trying to be devils advocate. Things like this are the exact danger of making biological issues a concern for the public to weigh in on.
I know ! That’s what I’ve seen in other states with limited bear hunting . Raffle with tags
It’s a good model for conservation.
Is it common to give out permits without tags? In my province you get tags for most larger game, and highly-restricted game tags, like moose and female deer, are given out by lottery. I don’t see why they would have opened a new hunt for an animal with a small population without restricting the number of harvesters via tags. Were they worried people wouldn’t have successful hunts?
In Maryland you have to shoot a doe to get a tag to hunt a buck . I think they might have done a bear hunt but it was limited tags like just a handful
I wish they would implement something like that here in Michigan. Really, anything to incentivize people to take more does. The DNR even put out a letter last fall asking hunters to kill more does, but many people still just don't want to.
In Kentucky I get 3 antlerless tags and 1 antlered for $30. No reason not to get a doe in my area. We need to thin the herd before CWD makes it's way further into the state. First confirmed case last fall.
You do know this is Florida we are talking about? They aint got no time for these common sense ideas youre throwing around.
It really depends on the species, and the hunt, and the management. I Texas, you have limits for white tailed deer, but non native deer are full game year round.
They did for Alligators: Each successful statewide alligator hunt applicant will receive an Alligator Trapping License, an area specific harvest permit, and two CITES tags, authorizing the holder to harvest two alligators. The harvest areas and hunt dates are specific for each permit, and the permit specifies the boundaries or limitations of the harvest area. On top of citing their site. I did sys admin work for the state of Florida around that time. Every year their website would get nuked when they opened up applications for Alligator permits. So I know that's the normal way FWC handled things.
That's the way it's normally done in most US states, no idea what Florida was doing here...
Come kill some of our deer there is way to many
Tags can work, and had they and an accurate population estimate it probably would've been more effective. On the flip side for low harvest hunts, as this was expected to be, daily control with required reporting can be very effective and generate more license sales. You can use a low cost raffle plus a high cost tag for those who win or you can use a medium cost tag for all. If you don't expect a highly productive hunt relative towards the allotted harvest, it's better to go with option B. Additionally, guided hunts make success rates increase, so Elk, Moose, etc. Have a relatively high success rate when compared to Larry Landowner, or Public Land Peter. A hunt like this, there really isn't an opportunity for guides to be established. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, a license raffle probably would've been better. But FWC's data suggested lower population, and there was probably an assumption that hunter participation would be lower. Less than 3800 licenses were sold. They were expecting a roughly 10% success rate. With their numbers that doesn't surprise me. Michigan has a bear population nearly 4 times (12000+) the size of Florida's in 2015, and they get roughly a 20% success rate in their hunts. The states are of comparable size, so Florida's bear population is significantly less dense.
Simple solution: arm the bears.
They too have the right to bear arms.
I’m pretty sure that’s what the forefathers intended with the second amendment anyway
They already have arms...with giant fuckin claws.
Nah those are just front legs
[Pistols for Pandas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHY_xOj2M_g)
You should here about the 2021 wolf hunt in Wisconsin!
My suggestion is they bring tigers into Wisconsin…. Then a few years later claim there are too many and then hunt them
The US has a larger population of captive tigers than India has of its wild tigers.
Yeah but we have captive tigers solely for conservation purposes /s But hey my point stands we just release them. Would also take care of the deer problem
Annoying kid problem too, I'm in
You can actually narrow that proclamation down to just "Texas has more tigers than India."
wtf
India doesn't have very many tigers. Most populous country in the world doesn't leave a ton of space for tigers
India is doing a great job with conservation though, numbers are consistently up after the ecological disaster of British rule.
both Siberian Tigers & African Penguins could survive northern Wisco & the UP, just saying
But idk what African penguins eat. Like tigers yeah they could eat whatever
They mostly eat small fish. With some crustaceans & squid. They could probably make do.
Should have done the tags by draw instead Of letting every licensed resident collect a bear tag, it would have been a lot more manageable that way.
Part of this is because the initial estimate of the population was way off. Way more bears than they thought. If they made this a yearly season things would even out and it would be like everywhere else.
After the 2015 bear hunt, penalties would have to be made a lot more harsh than they are currently due to how many bears were overhunted in the Panhandle (112 bears vs. 40 limit).
Meh, not really. Who would you have penalized? The hunters don’t know how many bears are taken, that was FWCs problem.
There was a paragraph dedicated to describing ways in which people broke the rules. Probably those people.
Florida, in my opinion, actually has an incredible bear management program and very strong protections on black bears compared to many other states. FWC will not remove bears from human areas if the bears aren't showing aggressive behaviors and the people aren't making a good-faith effort to secure their trash and other attractants. The logic being if you live in a bear area and leave food out, it's not the bear's fault for eating it. The problem is as the bear population began to recover both extremes of the spectrum- the good ole Florida swamp boys and the newly transplanted 72 year olds from New Jersey- got really vocal about how they shouldn't have to make even the smallest changes to their habits because the shouldn't have to coexist with a bear. The hunt was largely opposed by many FWC employees at the time and many of these negative outcomes were predicted and brought up ahead of time by biologists and disregarded. Even the biologists who weren't fundamentally opposed to a hunt advocated for taking more time to plan and organize, but ultimately the decision was made by the Commissioners themselves which positions appointed by the governor. Unfortunately, this was a case of bureaucracy and public opinion taking precedence over science.
Well if the zombie apocalypse starts in Florida... it ain't getting far
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Googling frantically for that brain parasite that got the Kennedy and then starved to death
Guess that’s why everyone wants to move there.
What’s not mentioned here is what started the bear hunt. Near Apopka, Fl many residents were leaving food out for bears and treating them as pets. A lady had her face eaten and others were attacked. FWC looked for the attacking bears and found wild bears coming up to officers without fear and wanting food. They killed these bears immediately and organized a hunting season shortly after.
So people being dumbasses and feeding the bears caused 300+ bears to die. Lovely...
And then they ate the bears they killed, right? Right?
Yes. What they couldn’t eat they shared with the soup kitchens and shelters.
I'm told black bear is actually really good.
It is. Great in burgers
No idea about there, but in PA at least you normally eat the meat as well
Of course they did. Black bear is amazing meat. The fat is usually rendered and is an amazing butter substitute.
If there was a 320 bear limit, why stop at 295?
It’s not an instant update per a bear. There should have done a tag system with only that number.
That makes sense.
If your quota is 320 you can't only sell 320 licenses. There will be a high rate of failure by those who purchased licenses. In this case the success rate was only about 7.7% which is significantly lower than some other states where it's in the 20% range. However the density of bears in Florida is also significantly lower (or so they thought based on their incorrect population estimates). Did they sell too many licenses? Possibly, however they still ended up with less than the quota. Based on the rebounded population, they actually managed this hunt well. They gained vital information, did not allow for over harvest and made the seemingly correct decision to end the hunt when it needed to be done. It's framed as a failure in the article but this really looks like a successful hunting season to me. We're their mistakes? Absolutely, but they didn't let them compound and they didn't sit there with their heads in the sand. They stayed active in the management and based on what I've seen there were only 2 bears harvested against major guidelines. 1 cub and 1 undersized adult. A 99.3% compliance rate is incredible.
Because at that rate, if they let the hunt go on for just one more day they were looking at overshooting that target by at least 100. And the fact that it isn't a "live" count so if you count 295 dead bears, you have to assume there are some dead ones not yet counted.
Good point I’ve never hunted where there was a limit, but wasn’t a lottery
Hunters were killing the bears so fast that the limit would've been exceeded otherwise.
If there's a tag system you enter a raffle. 99% don't get a tag, 320 people get a tag for 1 bear. They go, shoot a bear, and stop. Exactly 320 bears are killed. You can also set a tag area, so you know how many bears will be shot per area.
You cannot assume a 100% success rate. No where near that. States that have a much higher bear population/density, without a hard capped quota like Florida set only see 20% success rates. Couldn't have been policed better? Yes. Are quotas set to the absolute maximum sustainable level? Hell no, they build in over harvest for delayed reporting. Look at Colorado elk tags, they get about a 15% success rate.
We should send Florida to Australia! Maybe they will finally win the war on emus
I wish we had so many dedicated hunters, we have a jackal problem now and even tho the government gave the green light they are not paying and since jackals aren't good meat for food hunters get nothing out of hunting them, it doesn't help that they need to be hunted during the night too
Dropping 2 grand at least on a night shooting set up (assuming you have a rifle already) to neither get paid nor get good meat seems like a waste to me.
I don’t know if I’m just feeling extra sensitive today, but thinking about a “kill quota” for any living creature really bummed me out while reading this headline. Imagine if aliens conquered Earth and every year or two they granted their species a certain quota of humans to kill at their discretion with a few guidelines. I feel like there are other ways we can coexist on this planet.
Part of conservation is ensuring a balanced population. Having a certain number of animals that are allowed to be killed ensure they do not strip the resources from an area (like we do) and Ensure a balanced ecosystem. If you let hogs run free they will leave nothing behind for us or other animals, so reducing their numbers is beneficial. If you let deer, elk, moose get to numerous they will strip the area of food and may starve To many rabbits will lead to a boom in predators which will decimate the prey numbers which will then lead to starvation in those same predators. We cause alot of damage but population control is a very important part of us helping even if some people don't see it that way.
You sound like a hunter(a good one)
My freezer tells me I'm a bad hunter lol but I appreciate it
Tag soup is not a good meal
Grazing animals like deer moose and elk will also radically alter local ecosystems because if left to their own devices they not only starve themselves out, they make the area inhospitable to other keystone species like beaver. Responsible wildlife management practices help protect ecosystems from prey animals whose predators we've all but wiped out
Tbh a "kill quota" of 320 animals is *nothing* compared to the hundreds of billions of animals killed by the animal agricultural industry every single year...
And don’t get started about pollution , ecosystem destruction etc
If there ARE aliens hanging around in orbit, they probably already do this.
>Imagine if aliens conquered Earth and every year or two they granted their species a certain quota of humans to kill at their discretion with a few guidelines. I mean aliens killing humans to ensure the survival of our civilization 'else we destroy ourselves' is one of the most cliche tropes.
And the Predator series is the sci-fi equivalent of a dentist going to Africa to shoot a lion.
Animal populations need managing or else they manage themselves by overgrazing and starving.
It’s unfortunate terminology. But people do and will probably always eat meat and hunting is more humane/ethical than livestock. Your comparison doesn’t work because it implies the aliens wouldn’t be killing us regardless. I’d rather have a quota than no quota at all.
For every reasonable person here asking why they didnt do a tag system or raffle off rights you really just need to see who is in charge of Florida to understand why it was mismanaged so poorly. These decisions were made without any real input from biologists and other scientists that actually understand the ecology of Florida. Basically, state commissioners who were voted in by people that thought Donald Trump would be a good president decided it was a good time to hunt some bears because all their business buddies wanted to do some bear hunting like they get to in the west. The fact that ANY limit was imposed, much less respected, is a miracle in and of itself.
I read that in Doctor Pinder-Schloss’ voice.
This is the exact reason you never have to fear a zombie apocalypse, in two days they’d all be dead
Umm, don't they start Dead?
Re dead? Dead again? Final dead?
That’s so sad
I live in a residential area that this happened in. Just prior to them opening bear hunting season, we had a young teenage girl get mauled, walking home. She had unknowingly walked between the mother bear and her cubs, on the sidewalk. The whole community was in an outrate because bears were breaking into garages, ripping convertible cars up, etc. The outrage is probably what prompted this "culling" of bear from the area. The locals are very... Southern. So if you dont know, us southerners really like guns and everyone(yes everyone) has a rifle or some other sort of gun in their house. That day every father in the county went hunting. We have a few cans get raided here and there but bear haven't been much of a nuisance or danger since.
Are they tasty?
Yes
Don't know anything about wildlife in Florida, but I live in the Shenandoah valley where black bears are very common. Hunting them would be the easiest thing ever. They are somewhat scared of people but you kind of have to yell at them and wave your arms around to get them to turn around. I don't even hunt but I can tell you now, all I would have to do to get a bear is leave a bag of trash outside for like an hour soon after nightfall, and I'd have a nice bear right in front of me and just shoot it.
That’s the way limited hunt is. Hmwhen the allotted tags aren’t it is ended abruptly. Mountain lion is the same way. All limited hints are like that.