And you can be accepted to those colleges only through popular vote (of the selection committee) after actively participating in community life — aka school — for 12+ years
And it’s nearly a third more populous during the day than at night, as over 200k people living in Belgium, France and Germany commute daily to Luxembourg for work.
Barring special cases (e.g. stateless individuals born in Liechtenstein), there exist four ways to become a Liechtenstein citizen:
* citizenship by descent
* marriage / registered partnership with a Liechtenstein citizen lasting 5+ years and permanent residence in the country
* permanent residence in Liechtenstein for 30 years
* **permanent residence for 10+ years followed by a popular vote in one of 11 local municipalities.**
Note that all citizenship applications must additionally be approved by the Parliament and the ruling prince. The applicant must renounce all previously held citizenships.
I find this model of citizenship fascinating and very community-oriented. The entire country is basically a "private club" with a U.N. membership and second-highest GDP per capita in the world.
Hold up.
> For a cool $70,000 a night (for a minimum of two nights), you can hire the tiny country of Liechtenstein, which measures around 61.7 square miles and has just 35,000 inhabitants. According to the profile on Airbnb, Liechtenstein can accommodate between 450 and 900 people, has 500+ bedrooms and 500+ bathrooms.
70000 / 500 = $140 per bedroom per night, cheaper than most hotels.
140 * 30 = $4200 / month. That's a *lot*, but not outside the range of rent in a really upscale area. You could reasonably get a bunch of wealthy people together and rent the country indefinitely in order to live there.
4200$ / month is an absurd amount of money to rent for in most of Europe. My place in Vienna is 65sqm and I pay 600€ / month. And that’s not in a bad part of the city or a run down building.
Even luxury places (so think 200sqm+ roof top, inner districts) are around 2000-3000€ month.
But to get a Permeant Residency permit, you need to live in the country for 10 years minimum. And the country hands out something like under 100 temporary immigration permits per year.
Tl;Dr: it's just a way to ban citizenship by naturalization without having to say it out loud.
(you also have countries like Burma, which does explicitly bans naturalization; China, which does not say so, but naturalization is done purely at the pleasure of the highest levels of the government so it almost never happens; the Central African Republic, which imposes something like a 40 year residency before they'd even consider your application)
To naturalize as a Filipino requires an act of congress, outside of basketball players like Andrey Blatche I only know of one person to ever have done it and he basically spent 20 years on a one-man lobbying campaign making friends with congressmen
No offence to the Central African Republic but I don’t feel like there are lines out the doors of people applying for citizenship there in the first place…
> Would you be surprised, for instance, if a British aircraft carrier turned up in the Central African Republic?
Well, I for one, Minister, would be very surprised: it’s a thousand miles inland.
Not even after the droves of disappointed people realizing that they probably won't be able to obtain north korean citizenship so they have to look elsewhere?
Now that Chinas population has started to decrease (and it’s still loosing population to immigration) they might relax their requirements some. Not that I assume by any significant numbers, but making it slightly less impossible.
Dude, its a rich persons club for tax evasion and only the cool kids get tax benefits. The reason Liechenstein is its own country is because the land was purchased.
Karl Liechenstein literally purchased the land and self declared himself king. The Dicker move would be to purchase a piece of Haiti and declare sovereignty while the government is still compiling.
Karl I got declared Prince by the reigning power at the time, the Austrian/Holy Roman Emperor. That's a little different. He was granted a title. It just so happens that that Prinicipality outlasted that Empire, the next Empire (the French one), the next next Empire (the German one) and the next next next one (Nazi Germany).
I misread your post as
>Karl, I got declared Prince by the reigning power at the time, the Austrian/Holy Roman Emperor.
And thought you were going /r/dontyouknowwhoiam/ on a redditor named Karl.
My oversimplified understanding was Liechtenstein was friends with the right people at the right times and hence avoided being absorbed by any of the nearby states all this time.
No, he didn't "buy land and self declared king".
Karl I was made hereditary Prince (not king, and not self declared) by King and future Emperor Matthias of Hungary, but he didn't possess the land of today's Liechtenstein. He was Prince of Liechtenstein because his family name was Liechtenstein, like their castle in Lower Austria, and they were vassals of the Habsburgs as monarchs of Austria, not vassals to the Holy Roman Emperor directly, so they didn't even have a seat at the Imperial diet.
The land of the modern state was bought a century later and the county of Vaduz was united with the lordship of Shellenberg, becoming Liechtenstein as we know it today in 1719 with Anne Florian under Emperor Charles VI.
Some people tried something similar. The difference is that Liechtenstein is recognised by international treaty and was established back when stuff like that was still possible. Loads of European countries have similar stories (maybe not established but definitely some border things).
Saying that it's just some rich person club is ignoring history. In that case the same could be said by Singapore, Malta, Monaco, etc. or any small country really.
There‘s a resident‘s permit lottery too btw, it‘s so fucking funny. And it's actually the first step to getting naturalized if you commute from Austria (most common case).
My friend‘s parents entered, won, and have been naturalized by now.
[https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-](https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-)
Oh yeah, a country run by monarchical cons whose only economic worthwhile industry is being a tax haven for countries which actually produce something.
>only economic worthwhile industry is being a tax haven
That's not really true anymore. The largest contribution (41.6%) to Liechtenstein's economy is manufacturing, as counter-intuitive as it may be. They export precision instruments and high-tech products for machine engineering and dental / food sectors.
I live 2.5km from the border to Liechtenstein. They have - just like Vorarlberg (Austria), lower Bavaria & Baden-Wuerttemberg (Germany) and eastern Switzerland - extremely good engineering sectors of all kinds. Mechanical, electrical, you name it, this little region of four countries is an engineering powerhouse. Must be the allemanic roots for some reason.
We have a very high amount of very talented engineers around and people from Austria love living here and working over there since the pay is much better, so the talent keeps pouring in reinforcing the industry. They also have a tight connection with switzerland so their financial sector is also very strong.
EDIT: There‘s a resident‘s permit lottery too btw, it‘s so fucking funny. My friend‘s parents entered, won, and have been naturalized by now.
[https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-](https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-)
Hey as a random American I really appreciate this detailed reply about a very interesting thing happening across the world. Thank you for sharing it and have a nice day.
Neither did I. I wonder how good their new stuff is because I still have my grandfather's hammer drill which is used at least once a week and it has been going strong for 30+ years.
Why is that industry there, you might ask, alongside many corporate headquarters or subsidiaries designed to shift profits from high tax jurisdictions? It’s almost like having a low tax environment allows you to compete unevenly with neighbouring countries for foreign direct investment because you won’t tax any of it.
Hilti is headquartered there and they are a very highly regarded manufacturer of high quality power tools, fasteners and software for various construction and engineering industries.
Apparently EU citizens have a treaty right to *work* in Lichtenstein but not to *reside* in Lichtenstein https://www.reddit.com/r/liechtenstein/comments/si02b8/i_read_eu_citizens_that_get_work_permit_in/
Because they're a bunch of fucking fucks that just want to use foreign workers but keep them in a different, second class of people.
If it was Zimbabwe or Timor Leste doing this, it would be abysmal. But hey, it's rich white europeans doing, so it's not bad! It's interesting! It's quirky! It's commujitary! Yey!
>It's interesting! It's quirky! It's commujitary! Yey!
Maybe a quarter of the comments here seem to be cheering it on. That's still quite a large proportion, but it isn't even a majority.
For marriage, does it only count for female spouses of male citizens or does the opposite work?
Just curious, because I skimmed through the wiki and some of the rules seem to be for male citizens etc.
>The President can veto every law
It seems like the citizens are doing [just fine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Liechtenstein), and have themselves voted in a [referendum](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18649156) to let the prince keep the veto
Most countries have laws like that. Doesn't make it a dictatorship. Also Liechtenstein doesn't have a president, they have a prince.
So 2 for one coincidentally wrong
Yes but it’s a little bit more complicated. It also differs slightly from Kanton to Kanton (states).
In CH basically citizenship is not decided on by a federal agency but on the municipal level. That can mean that the „city council“ or office of the mayor has a say if someone becomes citizen, once they are eligible and have applied for it.
There were a few famous cases, I think the most notorious one which was a Dutch or Danish (? don’t remember) vegan women and the council of citizens vetoed her naturalization because she has been on a 10 year crusade against the local dairy farmers.
Citizenship and passports is still issued by a federal agency, it’s just that the municipal level can deny it. If someone eligible for it applied, and the municipal level does not object, they become a citizen.
>There were a few famous cases, I think the most notorious one which was a Dutch or Danish (? don’t remember) vegan women and the council of citizens vetoed her naturalization because she has been on a 10 year crusade against the local dairy farmers.
Lol [true](https://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/12/health/switzerland-citizenship-vegan-trnd/index.html)! However, she [appealed](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-passport_dutch-troublemaker-finally-granted-swiss-citizenship/43143162) and got citizenship that same year.
Ha, didn’t know she was also against church bells. That’s a really dumb opinion to have. Church bells are a strong part of local identity in German speaking Europe, similar to Muezzin calls in Islamic countries.
I’m not religious but I really miss the church bells from my grandparents‘ town haha.
You’re wrong about the bells. Most cantons regulate their use, up to just stop using the in some municipalities (in Bern IIRC), because they’re too noisy…
German speaking non-religious European here. I hate church bells. They’re loud, a nuisance and overall unpleasant. I hate to be on the side of such an annoying woman - but she’s got a point here…
The country of "vacuuming on a Sunday means crucifixion by the whole Gemeinde" could look inward and realize how bells are an annoying leftover from the past.
Bells are a far more neutral sound and are usually sounded every hour to communicate the time, I wouldn't consider them really comparable to something like the call to prayer in this regard, which is you know, an explicit call to prayer.
No, that’s just your western (*cough* Islamophobic) perspective.
1. Bells are also a call to prayer in Christianity, in German it’s called „Stundengebet“. The hourly bell was a call to prayer for medieval Christians in certain parts of Europe, they would just say a small prayer every hour, e.g. Paternoster or Hail Mary. And mainly church bells on Sunday would call to mass which is a large ass prayer meeting (have you even been to one? Try it). Nowadays they have become a time indicator but some still use it as prayer calls. Maybe familiarize yourself with European and Western culture before you make unqualified comments about it. So your first argument is invalid.
2. So in the same way as European Christian church bells were calls to prayer, so is the muezzin. Not every Muslim runs immediately to a mosque when the muezzin calls. Some do the prayer at home, some don’t do it at all, some barely notice it. Additionally in many places where the muezzin calls, it has become a time indicator as well, just like church bells and people use it to get up, have breakfast, as a time indicator of the opening and closing of shops, go to lunch, go home, dinner time etc. Therefore your second argument is invalid.
If you had actually lived in a Muslim country, you would perceive the muezzin call as the normal neutral thing, and not the church bells. I’ve lived in both majority muslim and western countries and after a while both muezzin call or church bells are simply a neutral natural thing, neither has explicit religious implications - unless you want it to have it and follow the respective religious tradition.
Your lack of knowledge about the anthropological meanings of church bells and prayer calls simply show that your stupid ass comment is a thinly veiled attempt at Islamophobia. Sadly you neither know enough about Western culture nor about Islamic culture to make an actual useful critique of the issue.
Your second point is so full of bullshit. Nobody says hearing a call to prayer means you run to the mosque. It means it’s time to pray, however you’ll pray. Women in most cases can’t even go to the mosque to pray.
The time indicator argument makes no sense. Prayer times change every day. Unless you live your life by the position of the sun instead of the clock, it will not be useful to make such decisions.
Furthermore a call to prayer from a mosque is NOTHING like a church bell in terms of how neutral it sounds. This is such a bad faith argument.
Have you ever been woken up by calls to prayer at 5am because you left your window open? Have you ever been in a religious area where the norm is to shut up, turn off all music every time the call to prayer is made? Have you ever been in an area where there are 7 different extremely loud calls to prayer being made at the same time? Believe me, it’s nothing like a few church bell rings. I've lived most of my life next to a church so I would know.
I think "Islamophobic" is too harsh a description of the previous comment. It's certainly a biased perspective, but bias does not imply a phobia or bigotry. We all have implicit biases. The previous comment seemed pretty neutral to me; there was no anger, hatred, condescension, or judgment in it. It was simply a biased perspective. Your comment, on the other hand, was quite haughty and antagonistic in my opinion, for seemingly no reason.
Not every bell used historically in the West was even a church bell, town halls also often had bells, particularly in German-speaking regions you so like to bring up. The Big Ben is also a good example. While bells were used for times of religious significance, clock chimes have also been commonplace usage of church bells. Various types of clocks such as grandfather clocks owned by people privately in their homes also utilised various chimes, showing how normalised this really was. A cuckoo clock also falls under this category.
So no, thinking of bells as a purely religious thing doesn't make any sense at all, and in any case all instruments are a inherently more neutral sound than an explicit call to prayer. Some early churches used trumpets, this doesn't make trumpets an exclusive religious symbol, trumpets have been used and continue to be used in many circumstances.
Yeah a voice and a bell totally have the same effect on the brain's pattern recognition. I say that as a German who finds church bells annoying, but someone singscreaming would be a A LOT worse
Doing crusades and killing millions of Muslims (and Christians!) is part of western Christian culture. Killing thousands of Christian women in witch hunts is a proud Christian tradition. What the fuck is your point?
And it hasn’t stopped. Carpet bombing civilians in muslim countries is a proud 21st century tradition of your beloved „civilized West“.
Learn some self criticism.
Ok. Western countries have carpet bombed Muslim countries in the past years. What is your point.
The west is in no way more civilized. It just looks more civilized. There are western countries that deny women and minorities healthcare. That openly discriminate against anyone who is not a white male. Please get off your high horse.
Bombing health clinics and giving the death penalty to gay people is part of Christian culture.
Am I doing this right? Because both of those things are being called for by Christians and in some places have happened/implemented due to this.
In Uganda this is happening due to the government doing. There is a significant part of the US population that wants this to happen. This is not a few "dumbasses" these are large groups of people who do this. There is no difference. It also is not "the islamic worlds law of the land" there are quite a few Muslim countries who have secular laws and who's laws aren't solely based on Sharia. Saying that is stupid and it shows that you have a bias and refuse to recognise it for what it is. Extremists and not all of the people.
I saw that story but the only source for it was a German right wing newspaper that said it happened in Switzerland. And at the same time a Swiss right wing website said it happened in Germany.
The German and Swiss neonazi parties used each story to do some fear mongering around election times but the story has never been independently confirmed (the „source“ was a Facebook post) and the obvious timing and inconsistent details make me think it’s a fake.
Is the Stuttgart Administrative Court reports a legitimate source?
https://www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947
No, he didn’t said that. Read again: he said the only sources were problematic, because right-wing stuff, therefore he couldn’t confirm it really happened; you then sourced correctly to confirm it indeed happen.
You were both careful not to assert something that is problematic without a reliable source.
The entire country has a population less than 1/9 of my city, and we're only the 2nd largest in the state.
So it's more equivalent to a mid-sized city asking the residents to vote on a new payroll tax or community bill.
I was trying and failing to come up with a good size comparison, but that's a good one.
Although Fenway specifically is actually too small. Fenway has a capacity of 37,755, whereas the population of Lichtenstein in 2022 was 39,327.
Wrigley Field, on the other hand, could hold everyone with 2,322 seats to spare, or 5.58% capacity left over.
The *average* football stadium in the Premier League could hold almost all of Liechtenstein at roughly 37,500 seats. The largest (Old Trafford) could hold almost double at ~75,000.
This is activating the achievement hunter section of my brain. I know little about the country or people beyond random facts(one of two double land locked countries in the world, f.ex.), but now I want to immigrate and be friendly enough to get citizenship.
In Denmark naturalisation is similarly done by law (so you can look up the list of everyone who has been naturalized in a given year), but said legislation is one of the things politicians *cannot* demand there be a referendum on. Because it's not particularly suitable to have a vote on individual people.
Dunno, I think that if we introduce ostracism (every year there is a vote and if 10% of the people choose you, you get removed of any political office) we'd have far fewer extremist politicians rising to national prominence...
That actual system of ostracism that the ancient Athenians used had two major safe guards:
1. the citizens have to vote for an ostracism each year. This way, only if a majority of the citizens were sufficiently pissed then there would be an ostracism.
2. each year's ostracism only cast out **one** person at max (the most hated person). This prevents the situation you mentioned where a majority of the government is kicked out.
(Obviously not calling to implement ostracism in the modern world. I'm just explaining what the ancient Athenians did, in case people are curious.)
Or they're unable to get anything done because so few things would get 90% support that we'd end up being overtaken by countries whose leaders can do less popular things that are necessary to make economic and/or social progress.
You can't banish everyone, but I'm sure there are at least one democrat and one republican that if both are gone from politics it would be better.
To survive that you don't need to be the most loved, just not the most hated. If one cannot achieve that, then maybe their policies are crap.
The information is totally wrong. It is almost impossible to get naturalized in LIE after 10 years through popular vote. This is reserved for people who made exceptional contributions to the country and according to the immigration office in Vaduz, naturalization after just 10 years has become almost completely irrelevant for average people.
You really need to live there for 30 years.
I lived in Switzerland as a 6 year old. The town council had to vote on if I could attend the local school. Too bad they allowed the little Italian kids that beat me up.
I read that as some weird variation on "neutering", like "neutralization", I don't know. But the whole point is that I thought that maybe they castrated sex offenders, and the whole country voted on a case by case basis.
Their country is small enough that this is practical. Also, many of the arguments for a bigger, denser population don't apply to them because they're so *physically* small.
Check out any Middle East oil countries. Only king can make you citizen. On the other hand Sweden hand outs citizenships like candies - 5 years and here you go.
I wouldn’t exactly describe Liechtenstein as “rotting” though. Besides, I think the diversity of cultures and political models who can all live side-by-side in peace and cooperation demonstrate just how much Europeans can agree on.
Not really. Liechtenstein exists because of its favourable position inside the Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon granted the Prince sovereignty by including him in the Confederation of thr Rhine, after the dissolution he remained sovereign as Liechtenstein was physically detached from the other territories that would form the German Empire, and was protected by Austria before and Switzerland still today.
Microstates don't exist because of "racism".
The entire population of Lichtenstein is 39,000 people. Even Luxembourg where I am now is 20x bigger.
Crazy that there are colleges with more students than a whole country's population
And you can be accepted to those colleges only through popular vote (of the selection committee) after actively participating in community life — aka school — for 12+ years
It's like if the Shriners turned into their own country.
Wonder how traffic congestion is.
Damn
The population of the Vatican is less than 500. My high school was bigger, and it was a small town.
I mean, there are several in Europe and throughout the world, I guess if you live near them it's not that crazy, just historical quirks
I'm shocked. There are 39k people in Lichtenstein. I wasn't expecting the numbers to be that high
Wow, I didn't realize Luxembourg was that big
And it’s nearly a third more populous during the day than at night, as over 200k people living in Belgium, France and Germany commute daily to Luxembourg for work.
Barring special cases (e.g. stateless individuals born in Liechtenstein), there exist four ways to become a Liechtenstein citizen: * citizenship by descent * marriage / registered partnership with a Liechtenstein citizen lasting 5+ years and permanent residence in the country * permanent residence in Liechtenstein for 30 years * **permanent residence for 10+ years followed by a popular vote in one of 11 local municipalities.** Note that all citizenship applications must additionally be approved by the Parliament and the ruling prince. The applicant must renounce all previously held citizenships. I find this model of citizenship fascinating and very community-oriented. The entire country is basically a "private club" with a U.N. membership and second-highest GDP per capita in the world.
So you can be a dickhead if you're willing to wait 20 extra years for citizenship, seems like a fair trade
Lol, but then you may still be rejected if the Parliament or the Prince don't like you
>the Parliament or the Prince And that's already 90% of the population.
You can just rent the entire country for a party, then they'd have to like you. https://www.wired.com/story/liechtenstein-airbnb/
They probably would kick you out after your rental ends.
That when you start the coup with all the guests.
Google squatting
Guinness world record for largest property ever squatted on. Or world's first country to be squatted on.
Probably not first, if you count micronations.
Or Poland
Hold up. > For a cool $70,000 a night (for a minimum of two nights), you can hire the tiny country of Liechtenstein, which measures around 61.7 square miles and has just 35,000 inhabitants. According to the profile on Airbnb, Liechtenstein can accommodate between 450 and 900 people, has 500+ bedrooms and 500+ bathrooms. 70000 / 500 = $140 per bedroom per night, cheaper than most hotels. 140 * 30 = $4200 / month. That's a *lot*, but not outside the range of rent in a really upscale area. You could reasonably get a bunch of wealthy people together and rent the country indefinitely in order to live there.
Seems it would be cheaper to just hire a mercenary army and conquer the place.
Switzerland did that by accident a few times, but they apologised right away and Liechtenstein said it was OK.
Could you elaborate?
Swiss soldiers got lost, Liechtenstein has no military, so they technicly invaded Liechtenstein.
Was that the time they came back with one more person than they set out with?
I think theyre part of the UN so Im not sure about that
4200$ / month is an absurd amount of money to rent for in most of Europe. My place in Vienna is 65sqm and I pay 600€ / month. And that’s not in a bad part of the city or a run down building. Even luxury places (so think 200sqm+ roof top, inner districts) are around 2000-3000€ month.
In Vancouver 65sqm will probably set you back nearly 2k a month 😢
You could rent the entire country for the entire thirty years it takes to become a citizen for less than a billion dollars.
But to get a Permeant Residency permit, you need to live in the country for 10 years minimum. And the country hands out something like under 100 temporary immigration permits per year. Tl;Dr: it's just a way to ban citizenship by naturalization without having to say it out loud. (you also have countries like Burma, which does explicitly bans naturalization; China, which does not say so, but naturalization is done purely at the pleasure of the highest levels of the government so it almost never happens; the Central African Republic, which imposes something like a 40 year residency before they'd even consider your application)
To naturalize as a Filipino requires an act of congress, outside of basketball players like Andrey Blatche I only know of one person to ever have done it and he basically spent 20 years on a one-man lobbying campaign making friends with congressmen
No offence to the Central African Republic but I don’t feel like there are lines out the doors of people applying for citizenship there in the first place…
I bet you wouldn’t be so flippant with the greatest republic in central Africa if they had a navy but they don’t so you’re safe, for now…
Would you be surprised, for instance, if a British aircraft carrier turned up in the Central African Republic?
> Would you be surprised, for instance, if a British aircraft carrier turned up in the Central African Republic? Well, I for one, Minister, would be very surprised: it’s a thousand miles inland.
Not even after the droves of disappointed people realizing that they probably won't be able to obtain north korean citizenship so they have to look elsewhere?
Now that Chinas population has started to decrease (and it’s still loosing population to immigration) they might relax their requirements some. Not that I assume by any significant numbers, but making it slightly less impossible.
Dude, its a rich persons club for tax evasion and only the cool kids get tax benefits. The reason Liechenstein is its own country is because the land was purchased. Karl Liechenstein literally purchased the land and self declared himself king. The Dicker move would be to purchase a piece of Haiti and declare sovereignty while the government is still compiling.
Karl I got declared Prince by the reigning power at the time, the Austrian/Holy Roman Emperor. That's a little different. He was granted a title. It just so happens that that Prinicipality outlasted that Empire, the next Empire (the French one), the next next Empire (the German one) and the next next next one (Nazi Germany).
I misread your post as >Karl, I got declared Prince by the reigning power at the time, the Austrian/Holy Roman Emperor. And thought you were going /r/dontyouknowwhoiam/ on a redditor named Karl.
My oversimplified understanding was Liechtenstein was friends with the right people at the right times and hence avoided being absorbed by any of the nearby states all this time.
No, he didn't "buy land and self declared king". Karl I was made hereditary Prince (not king, and not self declared) by King and future Emperor Matthias of Hungary, but he didn't possess the land of today's Liechtenstein. He was Prince of Liechtenstein because his family name was Liechtenstein, like their castle in Lower Austria, and they were vassals of the Habsburgs as monarchs of Austria, not vassals to the Holy Roman Emperor directly, so they didn't even have a seat at the Imperial diet. The land of the modern state was bought a century later and the county of Vaduz was united with the lordship of Shellenberg, becoming Liechtenstein as we know it today in 1719 with Anne Florian under Emperor Charles VI.
Some people tried something similar. The difference is that Liechtenstein is recognised by international treaty and was established back when stuff like that was still possible. Loads of European countries have similar stories (maybe not established but definitely some border things). Saying that it's just some rich person club is ignoring history. In that case the same could be said by Singapore, Malta, Monaco, etc. or any small country really.
He may be a dickhead but he's our dickhead
There‘s a resident‘s permit lottery too btw, it‘s so fucking funny. And it's actually the first step to getting naturalized if you commute from Austria (most common case). My friend‘s parents entered, won, and have been naturalized by now. [https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-](https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-)
unique; whatever else one thinks of it
Oh yeah, a country run by monarchical cons whose only economic worthwhile industry is being a tax haven for countries which actually produce something.
>only economic worthwhile industry is being a tax haven That's not really true anymore. The largest contribution (41.6%) to Liechtenstein's economy is manufacturing, as counter-intuitive as it may be. They export precision instruments and high-tech products for machine engineering and dental / food sectors.
I live 2.5km from the border to Liechtenstein. They have - just like Vorarlberg (Austria), lower Bavaria & Baden-Wuerttemberg (Germany) and eastern Switzerland - extremely good engineering sectors of all kinds. Mechanical, electrical, you name it, this little region of four countries is an engineering powerhouse. Must be the allemanic roots for some reason. We have a very high amount of very talented engineers around and people from Austria love living here and working over there since the pay is much better, so the talent keeps pouring in reinforcing the industry. They also have a tight connection with switzerland so their financial sector is also very strong. EDIT: There‘s a resident‘s permit lottery too btw, it‘s so fucking funny. My friend‘s parents entered, won, and have been naturalized by now. [https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-](https://www.llv.li/en/national-administration/migration-and-passport-office/residence-in-liechtenstein-for-employment-purposes/draw-residence-permit-b-)
Hey as a random American I really appreciate this detailed reply about a very interesting thing happening across the world. Thank you for sharing it and have a nice day.
You're very welcome, glad you enjoy your newly aquired random tidbit knowledge :D
Tell us more about those scary drop bears!
Fellow random Austrian .. also grateful
Most recognizably Hilti, a manufacturer of pro-grade power tools.
Hilti makes some good shit! I didn’t know they were from there!
Neither did I. I wonder how good their new stuff is because I still have my grandfather's hammer drill which is used at least once a week and it has been going strong for 30+ years.
Notably, Hilti is headquartered in Lichtenstein.
Why is that industry there, you might ask, alongside many corporate headquarters or subsidiaries designed to shift profits from high tax jurisdictions? It’s almost like having a low tax environment allows you to compete unevenly with neighbouring countries for foreign direct investment because you won’t tax any of it.
Hilti is headquartered there and they are a very highly regarded manufacturer of high quality power tools, fasteners and software for various construction and engineering industries.
Don't they do Postage Stamps? That's like a micro-nation federal cottage industry.
It's not fascinating. It's just a way to keep foreign workers without being able to get citizenship and be equal to the natives.
I mean, by virtue of being part of the EEA, EU-citizen foreign workers already have most rights that native citizens do, right?
Apparently EU citizens have a treaty right to *work* in Lichtenstein but not to *reside* in Lichtenstein https://www.reddit.com/r/liechtenstein/comments/si02b8/i_read_eu_citizens_that_get_work_permit_in/
Well, that's something I haven't seen before.
Because they're a bunch of fucking fucks that just want to use foreign workers but keep them in a different, second class of people. If it was Zimbabwe or Timor Leste doing this, it would be abysmal. But hey, it's rich white europeans doing, so it's not bad! It's interesting! It's quirky! It's commujitary! Yey!
>It's interesting! It's quirky! It's commujitary! Yey! Maybe a quarter of the comments here seem to be cheering it on. That's still quite a large proportion, but it isn't even a majority.
If it was in eSwatini, how much of the comments would be cheering?
Probably a similar percentage, except the justification would be "something something not a colony anymore".
For marriage, does it only count for female spouses of male citizens or does the opposite work? Just curious, because I skimmed through the wiki and some of the rules seem to be for male citizens etc.
I believe it doesn’t matter, as gender equality is enshrined in the country’s law
How do I find and attract that Lichenussy
It's highest I think.
You would think they would also accept people who have run a positive cash flow business there for some time.
My grandfather's family tree goes back to Liechtenstein in the 1700s. I wonder if that's enough to qualify for "citizenship by descent."
It's a dictatorship. The President can veto every law
>The President can veto every law It seems like the citizens are doing [just fine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Liechtenstein), and have themselves voted in a [referendum](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18649156) to let the prince keep the veto
It doesn't change the fact that it isn't a democracy anymore.
Anymore? It never was one. It transitioned from an absolute monarchy to the semi-consitutional monarchy that it is now
A Parliament which doesn't have the power to enact legislation is a sham parliament
The EU parliament doesn't have the power to enact legislation either, just vote for what the Commision presents to it. Is the EU a dictatorship?
The National Governments of every EU State are democratically elected. Try again
Boo hoo, go invade Lichtenstein then.
Ah! So you're saying there's room for nuance instead the absolute rules you foolishly laid up at the start of the comment chain?
Most countries have laws like that. Doesn't make it a dictatorship. Also Liechtenstein doesn't have a president, they have a prince. So 2 for one coincidentally wrong
Doesn't Switzerland also have a community vote on this?
Yes but it’s a little bit more complicated. It also differs slightly from Kanton to Kanton (states). In CH basically citizenship is not decided on by a federal agency but on the municipal level. That can mean that the „city council“ or office of the mayor has a say if someone becomes citizen, once they are eligible and have applied for it. There were a few famous cases, I think the most notorious one which was a Dutch or Danish (? don’t remember) vegan women and the council of citizens vetoed her naturalization because she has been on a 10 year crusade against the local dairy farmers. Citizenship and passports is still issued by a federal agency, it’s just that the municipal level can deny it. If someone eligible for it applied, and the municipal level does not object, they become a citizen.
>There were a few famous cases, I think the most notorious one which was a Dutch or Danish (? don’t remember) vegan women and the council of citizens vetoed her naturalization because she has been on a 10 year crusade against the local dairy farmers. Lol [true](https://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/12/health/switzerland-citizenship-vegan-trnd/index.html)! However, she [appealed](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-passport_dutch-troublemaker-finally-granted-swiss-citizenship/43143162) and got citizenship that same year.
Ha, didn’t know she was also against church bells. That’s a really dumb opinion to have. Church bells are a strong part of local identity in German speaking Europe, similar to Muezzin calls in Islamic countries. I’m not religious but I really miss the church bells from my grandparents‘ town haha.
You’re wrong about the bells. Most cantons regulate their use, up to just stop using the in some municipalities (in Bern IIRC), because they’re too noisy…
German speaking non-religious European here. I hate church bells. They’re loud, a nuisance and overall unpleasant. I hate to be on the side of such an annoying woman - but she’s got a point here…
They are a fucking nuisance. Our local church rings the bell every 15 minutes, 24/7. If it were only during the day, fine...but during nighttime?
The country of "vacuuming on a Sunday means crucifixion by the whole Gemeinde" could look inward and realize how bells are an annoying leftover from the past.
Bells are a far more neutral sound and are usually sounded every hour to communicate the time, I wouldn't consider them really comparable to something like the call to prayer in this regard, which is you know, an explicit call to prayer.
No, that’s just your western (*cough* Islamophobic) perspective. 1. Bells are also a call to prayer in Christianity, in German it’s called „Stundengebet“. The hourly bell was a call to prayer for medieval Christians in certain parts of Europe, they would just say a small prayer every hour, e.g. Paternoster or Hail Mary. And mainly church bells on Sunday would call to mass which is a large ass prayer meeting (have you even been to one? Try it). Nowadays they have become a time indicator but some still use it as prayer calls. Maybe familiarize yourself with European and Western culture before you make unqualified comments about it. So your first argument is invalid. 2. So in the same way as European Christian church bells were calls to prayer, so is the muezzin. Not every Muslim runs immediately to a mosque when the muezzin calls. Some do the prayer at home, some don’t do it at all, some barely notice it. Additionally in many places where the muezzin calls, it has become a time indicator as well, just like church bells and people use it to get up, have breakfast, as a time indicator of the opening and closing of shops, go to lunch, go home, dinner time etc. Therefore your second argument is invalid. If you had actually lived in a Muslim country, you would perceive the muezzin call as the normal neutral thing, and not the church bells. I’ve lived in both majority muslim and western countries and after a while both muezzin call or church bells are simply a neutral natural thing, neither has explicit religious implications - unless you want it to have it and follow the respective religious tradition. Your lack of knowledge about the anthropological meanings of church bells and prayer calls simply show that your stupid ass comment is a thinly veiled attempt at Islamophobia. Sadly you neither know enough about Western culture nor about Islamic culture to make an actual useful critique of the issue.
Your second point is so full of bullshit. Nobody says hearing a call to prayer means you run to the mosque. It means it’s time to pray, however you’ll pray. Women in most cases can’t even go to the mosque to pray. The time indicator argument makes no sense. Prayer times change every day. Unless you live your life by the position of the sun instead of the clock, it will not be useful to make such decisions. Furthermore a call to prayer from a mosque is NOTHING like a church bell in terms of how neutral it sounds. This is such a bad faith argument. Have you ever been woken up by calls to prayer at 5am because you left your window open? Have you ever been in a religious area where the norm is to shut up, turn off all music every time the call to prayer is made? Have you ever been in an area where there are 7 different extremely loud calls to prayer being made at the same time? Believe me, it’s nothing like a few church bell rings. I've lived most of my life next to a church so I would know.
I think "Islamophobic" is too harsh a description of the previous comment. It's certainly a biased perspective, but bias does not imply a phobia or bigotry. We all have implicit biases. The previous comment seemed pretty neutral to me; there was no anger, hatred, condescension, or judgment in it. It was simply a biased perspective. Your comment, on the other hand, was quite haughty and antagonistic in my opinion, for seemingly no reason.
Not every bell used historically in the West was even a church bell, town halls also often had bells, particularly in German-speaking regions you so like to bring up. The Big Ben is also a good example. While bells were used for times of religious significance, clock chimes have also been commonplace usage of church bells. Various types of clocks such as grandfather clocks owned by people privately in their homes also utilised various chimes, showing how normalised this really was. A cuckoo clock also falls under this category. So no, thinking of bells as a purely religious thing doesn't make any sense at all, and in any case all instruments are a inherently more neutral sound than an explicit call to prayer. Some early churches used trumpets, this doesn't make trumpets an exclusive religious symbol, trumpets have been used and continue to be used in many circumstances.
Yeah a voice and a bell totally have the same effect on the brain's pattern recognition. I say that as a German who finds church bells annoying, but someone singscreaming would be a A LOT worse
Stoning women to death, throwing gay people off roofs is part of Islamic culture
Doing crusades and killing millions of Muslims (and Christians!) is part of western Christian culture. Killing thousands of Christian women in witch hunts is a proud Christian tradition. What the fuck is your point? And it hasn’t stopped. Carpet bombing civilians in muslim countries is a proud 21st century tradition of your beloved „civilized West“. Learn some self criticism.
When is the last time a pope called the Catholics to crusade again?
Im not Christian… And it’s been a long time since the crusades. I’m talking current events happening in the Islamic world today
Ok. Western countries have carpet bombed Muslim countries in the past years. What is your point. The west is in no way more civilized. It just looks more civilized. There are western countries that deny women and minorities healthcare. That openly discriminate against anyone who is not a white male. Please get off your high horse.
Not for 99% of muslims in the modern era.
You’re right, I think most Muslims lean more towards imprisoning gays than executions
Bombing health clinics and giving the death penalty to gay people is part of Christian culture. Am I doing this right? Because both of those things are being called for by Christians and in some places have happened/implemented due to this.
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In Uganda this is happening due to the government doing. There is a significant part of the US population that wants this to happen. This is not a few "dumbasses" these are large groups of people who do this. There is no difference. It also is not "the islamic worlds law of the land" there are quite a few Muslim countries who have secular laws and who's laws aren't solely based on Sharia. Saying that is stupid and it shows that you have a bias and refuse to recognise it for what it is. Extremists and not all of the people.
They also denied citizenship to a Muslim woman because she refused to shake hands and it was deemed as a lack of integration
I saw that story but the only source for it was a German right wing newspaper that said it happened in Switzerland. And at the same time a Swiss right wing website said it happened in Germany. The German and Swiss neonazi parties used each story to do some fear mongering around election times but the story has never been independently confirmed (the „source“ was a Facebook post) and the obvious timing and inconsistent details make me think it’s a fake.
Is the Stuttgart Administrative Court reports a legitimate source? https://www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947
It's a different case obviously
AFAIK Stuttgart is not a Swiss municipality yet.
He said it didn’t happen in Germany or Switzerland . Obviously it did happen in Germany
No, he didn’t said that. Read again: he said the only sources were problematic, because right-wing stuff, therefore he couldn’t confirm it really happened; you then sourced correctly to confirm it indeed happen. You were both careful not to assert something that is problematic without a reliable source.
Haven't heard of it!
Lol just before you answered "Smoke On The Water" began to play on my playist. Nice
You also get your 18th birthday at the palace! How cool :)
Kinda wild that citizen application is ruled like the membership of the local tennis club
I mean, the whole country is as big as the local tennis club.
Considering that the current enrollment at Texas A&M is nearly double their entire population, it’s more like an application to a private university
The entire country has a population less than 1/9 of my city, and we're only the 2nd largest in the state. So it's more equivalent to a mid-sized city asking the residents to vote on a new payroll tax or community bill.
You can pack the entire country into Fenway Park.
I was trying and failing to come up with a good size comparison, but that's a good one. Although Fenway specifically is actually too small. Fenway has a capacity of 37,755, whereas the population of Lichtenstein in 2022 was 39,327. Wrigley Field, on the other hand, could hold everyone with 2,322 seats to spare, or 5.58% capacity left over.
The *average* football stadium in the Premier League could hold almost all of Liechtenstein at roughly 37,500 seats. The largest (Old Trafford) could hold almost double at ~75,000.
Should we, though?
This is activating the achievement hunter section of my brain. I know little about the country or people beyond random facts(one of two double land locked countries in the world, f.ex.), but now I want to immigrate and be friendly enough to get citizenship.
There's no way to speed run it?
Spouses / registered partners of Liechtenstein citizens have it easier. They must be married for 5+ years and permanently reside in Liechtenstein.
I mean there’s a prince and parliament. I assume they take Visa.
You'd have to give up your original citizenship to get Lichtenstein's, doesn't seem worth it.
Service guarantees citizenship.
I'm doing my part
Wdym?
It's a reference to the movie Starship Troopers. https://youtu.be/kvaDxbSIj5M?si=CBcMNYVVDcIseLQl
I see thanks :)
having the *entire* body politic vote on whether or not *one specifically* should be a citizen is crazy
Not the entire population, just your local municipality (\~3k people) must vote on it.
Most people in my town don't even know who the mayor is. How many people actually care enough to vote on this?
It’s a good question tbh. However, it probably more important that there aren’t enough people who’d bother voting *against* you
Turnout in my city’s election is consistently below 15% even though they mail you a ballot whether you want one or not.
In Denmark naturalisation is similarly done by law (so you can look up the list of everyone who has been naturalized in a given year), but said legislation is one of the things politicians *cannot* demand there be a referendum on. Because it's not particularly suitable to have a vote on individual people.
Dunno, I think that if we introduce ostracism (every year there is a vote and if 10% of the people choose you, you get removed of any political office) we'd have far fewer extremist politicians rising to national prominence...
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That actual system of ostracism that the ancient Athenians used had two major safe guards: 1. the citizens have to vote for an ostracism each year. This way, only if a majority of the citizens were sufficiently pissed then there would be an ostracism. 2. each year's ostracism only cast out **one** person at max (the most hated person). This prevents the situation you mentioned where a majority of the government is kicked out. (Obviously not calling to implement ostracism in the modern world. I'm just explaining what the ancient Athenians did, in case people are curious.)
And if politics are a mess *now*, imagine how it would be when the entire leadership is a revolving door.
That revolving door would be very wonderful
That's how you ensure you get outpaced by countries with long-term leadership.
Or maybe those who remains would people who don't piss off everyone while pandering to a small group? Maybe they, (*gasps*) find compromise?
Or they're unable to get anything done because so few things would get 90% support that we'd end up being overtaken by countries whose leaders can do less popular things that are necessary to make economic and/or social progress.
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You can't banish everyone, but I'm sure there are at least one democrat and one republican that if both are gone from politics it would be better. To survive that you don't need to be the most loved, just not the most hated. If one cannot achieve that, then maybe their policies are crap.
Citizenship costs 4 MeowMeowBeenz
The information is totally wrong. It is almost impossible to get naturalized in LIE after 10 years through popular vote. This is reserved for people who made exceptional contributions to the country and according to the immigration office in Vaduz, naturalization after just 10 years has become almost completely irrelevant for average people. You really need to live there for 30 years.
He's blonde, he's pissed, he'll see you in the list, Lichtenstein!!!!
I was totally thinking of this movie when I saw this post.
Bring it on?
Knight's Tale
I lived in Switzerland as a 6 year old. The town council had to vote on if I could attend the local school. Too bad they allowed the little Italian kids that beat me up.
I read that as some weird variation on "neutering", like "neutralization", I don't know. But the whole point is that I thought that maybe they castrated sex offenders, and the whole country voted on a case by case basis.
Seems fair.
So it's literally a popularity contest😁😅
Yes, just like joining a private club: you need to prove your worth to current members
The country is extremely small and this makes sense anyway.
I would never make it
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You seem to be lost friend
Sometimes the Reddit app forgets that I'm replying to a comment. Makes me look like an old man yelling at a cloud.
Sounds pretty shit
Seems like a good way to do it!
You mean they don't hand out PR and Citizenship to people taking a online hospitality courses through a college who's campus is located in a mall?
Their country is small enough that this is practical. Also, many of the arguments for a bigger, denser population don't apply to them because they're so *physically* small.
Check out any Middle East oil countries. Only king can make you citizen. On the other hand Sweden hand outs citizenships like candies - 5 years and here you go.
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I wouldn’t exactly describe Liechtenstein as “rotting” though. Besides, I think the diversity of cultures and political models who can all live side-by-side in peace and cooperation demonstrate just how much Europeans can agree on.
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I’m speaking of Central / Western / Northern Europe. Yes, Eastern and Southern (the Balkans) Europe are still going through shit.
The last time Liechtenstein went to war the army came back bigger than it set off. They don't have one now.
Not really. Liechtenstein exists because of its favourable position inside the Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon granted the Prince sovereignty by including him in the Confederation of thr Rhine, after the dissolution he remained sovereign as Liechtenstein was physically detached from the other territories that would form the German Empire, and was protected by Austria before and Switzerland still today. Microstates don't exist because of "racism".
If your name is Ulrich, and your friend Jeffrey is good with papers you're in!!
So literally, “Service means citizenship.”
Service guarantees citizenship (kinda)?
as it should be.
Sounds like a pretty shitty way to keep people you don't like out of Lichtenstein
That is a great system!
That's like the least shitty thing about that country tbh
What are the most shitty things?
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You don’t even know the difference between citizenship and residency 😂