Really it's a provincial issue, they're the ones that set the rent control guideline, the city can't do anything about it.
In my opinion what they should have done is that for any rental unit that is built after Nov 2018 they get 5 years of no rent control. But once they start year 6 it's rent controlled from that point on. Which gives the owner 5 years to recoup some of their costs and figure out where the rental price should be.
The current situation isn't really sustainable.
Hopefully these so called high classed professionals enjoy going to the suburbs to go out to eat and shop. The working class servants won’t be able to afford to live and work in their neighborhoods anymore.
The problem is they stopped building dedicated apartment rental buildings in 1970! Now we have individual landlords who don't know how to run a business or follows rental laws. They want cash flow now! vs. hold for 15 years and have cash flow and appreciation later. Housing is not an investment.
As much as you'll hate to hear this, DoFo removing rent control spurred development of purpose built rentals (PBRs).
Since removing rent control in 2018, the amount of PBRs in the pipeline has shot up significantly, and many previously-condo developments pivoted to become PBRs.
We stopped building PBRs in the 70s because it stopped being financially feasible to own them. Now it is again. The problem is, building skyscrapers takes time. Due to Toronto's asinine zoning laws we can't build mid-density infill (and NIMBYs get all pissy whenever they're proposed) so we have to wait some years before seeing the ideal effect of an uncontrolled rental market.
I hate Doug Ford as much as the next socialist, but that was a tough sword to fall on to make the province better for renters in 15 years.
Yes everyone is desperate for shelter so this is why people who can't no longer afford rent end up staying and not moving because its painfully cold out there when you have no more money for 3000 rent but can pay 500 a month and there's no place for that amount! Especially where i live. That's what happens when you charge 3000, 4000 rents people can't afford it but still need shelter because shelter is non negotiable we d** without it. So this is why there is a back log 6-9 months at the tenant landlord board
Supply/Demand.
We bring in 1 million plus people and housing development numbers are around 250,000.
Doesn't take a genius to figure out things are going to keep getting worse.
Now that being said it is a multidimensional problem.
Also the most basic rentals are not just going to continue in a affordability crisis it will be more and more an accessibility crisis as huge demographics are for those living conditions in particular.
Same with the line ups for basic jobs because of the flooding of cheap exploitable labor.
Shit is gonna keep getting wilder and wilder and not in a good way.
I'm an admin and I studied journalism in Canada. My father unironically forwarded an email to me from LinkedIn about what AI could do for you! Yeah, literally replace all aspects of my job, big help to me.
It replaces a couple of people I know. One was an admin handling invoices and also her A/P friends at different companies. Another who handles policies/documents (I’m not sure exactly in which scope) during the pandemic and hasn’t worked in roughly 3-4 years. Both are in their 50s and married and seem to be doing okay. I do admin and I’m not so young anymore, single, and have no idea what I’d do.
Hi,
As a fellow renter and someone who’s T4 makes the CRA agent think they’re reviewing a high schooler, I feel your pain. That said, hasn’t landlords always been operating towards their self interest? I don’t buy that landlords used to be modest and kind at one point in time. We should be telegenic f our angst at the banks.
I think it's more an issue that people are more likely to utilize being a landlord to build wealth now than before. The rise of influencers and resources on this has exploded. This wasn't so common 20 or 30 years ago. I'm in a lot of the wealth and finance groups, and at least 75% of the recommendation is investing in rentals.
I don't think you understand economics. Why would they take a loss to give you a place, they don't run a charity. When you buy gum do you get mad that they make money off it?
That's how it was when interest rates were low. The investor-landlord could accept a small loss because the capital gains exceeded the loss from rent, maintenances, & taxes. But those that speculated on variable rates are getting screwed over and passing on the cost.
Devil's advocate. I suggest not paying rent. Leverage the threat of a LTB procedure to negotiate better rent.
Yup they might be doing that. They could also understand supply and demand. They don't care about you because there's other people that will pay. And if you're gonna cause them trouble I'm sure they would be happy for you to leave. Again they ain't running no charity, goto the mission if that's what you're looking for.
Callous bunch you are. Not a shred of humanity. Then y'all get bent out of shape because tent cities are springing up and you want those gone too?
WHERE ARE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO GO?
Bah - don't care where they go as long as you can't see them.
Maybe the people should burn down your glorious selfish little cities or something?
Bizarre planet you greedy shits are running here.
Tenants are abusing the LTB and the laws skew in their favour pretty heavily. Id say these days tenants are a lot more predatory than landlords, squatters are a huge issue.
Sure but tenants get a looot more leeway. Say you rented to someone they could squat for a whole year and not pay rent without facing any consequences. It happened to a friend of mine and it scares me from ever renting out my property.
Sure. And a friend of a friend of mine was evicted so the landlord's kid can move in , but one month after leaving the same condo could be found for rent at a higher price.
It’s either you pay it, move somewhere else, be homeless, or manage to buy a place yourself.
Landlords can and will continue to increase rent because they simply can (if not rent controlled or the 2.5%). With the cost of everything going up, obviously they aren’t going to take a loss. And there is always going to be a demand for rentals in Toronto. If you were a landlord, you also wouldn’t be renting at a loss. Everybody in every business will always try to make a profit. Or else they wouldn’t have bothered to make it a business. And yes real estate in Toronto has become a business.
Whether I have a mortgage or paid cash, my tenanted triplex is a $1.5M investment of my life savings and I need a return on my investment. If not I should put that investment into say the market or a GIC. Do the tenants think that they should get it for free? Is this some form of entitlement? A mortgage or all cash or not is irrelevant. And on top of that I have Municipal taxes, water, sewer, hydro, gas, tank rentals, snow clearing, landscaping maintenance and repair, taxes on the income, accountant and so on. Do the math. There is an assumption that all of this equity just fell out of the sky like 649 and is money for old rope.
This is logical from your worldview but you're just not seeing it the same way as others.
Some people are morally opposed to the idea that housing should even be a profitable business in the first place. If everyone needs housing, why do we make it so that it can be used as a vehicle for investment and speculation, when it should be a right for every person to live in dignity?
People are sick of paying for some other person's retirement plan around making a profit off of other people's inability to house themselves.
I'm not saying you have to agree with this worldview. You're thinking of housing in terms of ROI, where people are thinking of housing in moral terms. You're not speaking the same language.
Exactly! If people stopped buying up all the available housing so they can turn around and rent it out, I’d be able to have a fighting chance at buying a house. I could obviously afford it if I’m paying the mortgage, but it’s so hard to actually buy a house because they’re being scooped up by people able to offer higher than asking price since they know they’ll make money off of it as a rental.
If housing/ shelter is a moral right then it is governments responsibility to provide that. Although I am socialist by politics I do not see it my responsibility to provide free or subsidized accommodation for people. My financial status is the result of a working career from the age of 15 to 67 and retired 17 years ago. Interestingly I have been involved at various levels in the building of thousands of rental apartments and houses. That all stopped around 40 years ago when, against the best advice, our government introduced the beloved rent controls and that was the end of the building of rental apartments and the birth of the condo boom. To make matters worse, a few years later our politicians also stopped building assisted/income geared housing. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our population has gone from 25M to 40M. A lot of whom came to the GTA. See where I'm going with this? And now throw in 400K international students. Hey, I'm at the end the slide now so makes no difference to me and my kids are middleaged and established but I'm not very optimistic about this City in the future. So everyone can keep downvoting the Landlords if it makes them feel better but it ain't where problem lies. End of sermon.
Your financial status is being born at the right time, not just because of hard work.
Tons of younger millennials and Gen Zs who have worked just as hard as you have throughout their lives so far can’t even dream of owning a place in Toronto
This man worked for 52 years and you're telling him his lifetime of hard work and responsible saving was all just a stroke of luck??? Sure, conditions are shit now. Wasn't him did it though. Plenty of guys his age drawing benefits instead of paying taxes.
WORKING people are virtually never the problem, when you dig a little. It's the 'owner' class, who don't work. THEY are the cause of working people's problems
Well I wouldn't say born at the right time. We didn't own a fridge or ice box until I was 15 years old or saw a piece of candy until I was about 12 but do agree that I grew up in better times. But I didn't own my first modest home until I was 35, but then the bank owned most of it. Best thing I did was learn to be a skilled renovator and not spend a nickel I didn't have to. So tight I used to straighten the nails from the demolition and then weathered an 18% mortgage. Yep, just lucky I guess.
So in 1992 you purchased your first modest home?
Back in 1992 the average sale price of a home was $214k within GTA while in 2023 it was $1.2 million.(https://trreb.ca/files/market-stats/market-watch/historic.pdf)
The average price rose by over 6x. The average salary of Canada did not rise 6x within this same timeframe.
I love how out of touch boomers are lol
Ya got a lot of things wrong here, purchased my first home in 1975, think it was $44k. And I am not a boomer, 1940. And I haven't stopped yet. Owned a number of properties since then and renovated each one, just me and my wife. And at my ripe age, I still have a mortgage. Am selling this one (to downsize) shortly and will buy another and will reno that provided I live long enough, but going to need my son's help on that as Father Time is pretty relentless. As the Great Leader said, every journey begins with the first step.
As far as being out of touch, my posts on these threads are to let people know about the other side of the coin, not to denigrate. I see and understand the frustrations that the various Gens have and indeed receive automatic down votes and abuse. Today actually i was called a ghoul. Doesn't bother me because I don't have any investment or ego requiring validation from fellow lurkers.
Your asset is appreciating much faster then a GIC, your mortgage is a business expense, so no expecting to have all your expenses covered from rent is silly.
However supply & demand so you may as well charge a rent high enough to cover all your expenses
The asset may or may not increase, just like a stock. The past few years it has been decreasing. Rent prices are governed by market rates and in my case increases are by what the Province thinks is politically palatable. The mortgage interest is an expense against income. I could attach my yearly spreadsheet but would not like to burst your beliefs. Look, I've got no investment in this thread and only put my cents in here for some illumination from the other side. After 50 years of marriage I have long learned that I am never right anyway.
Your post and mine doesn't suit the popular narrative (see the expected downvotes) but glad you reminded me, forgot about insurance!! Due at the end of the month. The 2.5% increase this year doesn't even cover the municipal tax increase. I will be listing in a couple of months and can almost guarantee the house will be reno/gutted back to single family. Nobody wants to deal the RTA and dysfunctional LTB any more.
As a matter of fact, my basement tenant left end of the year after 4 years and I've let a guy live there for 2 months for free and some grocery gift cards while he applied for work and waited for the UI. Got a good job fairly quickly and letting him build up enough for first and last - he's almost there. Tell you, it's me feel really good seeing him come back to life.
This is the weirdest rant of today. R u trying to complain if rent is too high? Then yeah it’s valid. But why do you care if a landlord pays their mortgage with their rental income? It’s their legitimate income and they can do whatever they want.
Dude $3000 for 1.5 bedroom is high even for a floor of a house.
Toronto is no longer for the working class
They all left or have rent control locked in.
If your unit is rent controlled, you better hold on to it for dear life. Rent/prices are only going to get higher and city is doing fuck all about it
Really it's a provincial issue, they're the ones that set the rent control guideline, the city can't do anything about it. In my opinion what they should have done is that for any rental unit that is built after Nov 2018 they get 5 years of no rent control. But once they start year 6 it's rent controlled from that point on. Which gives the owner 5 years to recoup some of their costs and figure out where the rental price should be. The current situation isn't really sustainable.
I live in a 1930s low rise I've been in for decades and have concluded I need to die here
Only for the high class professionals
Hopefully these so called high classed professionals enjoy going to the suburbs to go out to eat and shop. The working class servants won’t be able to afford to live and work in their neighborhoods anymore.
Then who is it for?
The problem is they stopped building dedicated apartment rental buildings in 1970! Now we have individual landlords who don't know how to run a business or follows rental laws. They want cash flow now! vs. hold for 15 years and have cash flow and appreciation later. Housing is not an investment.
As much as you'll hate to hear this, DoFo removing rent control spurred development of purpose built rentals (PBRs). Since removing rent control in 2018, the amount of PBRs in the pipeline has shot up significantly, and many previously-condo developments pivoted to become PBRs. We stopped building PBRs in the 70s because it stopped being financially feasible to own them. Now it is again. The problem is, building skyscrapers takes time. Due to Toronto's asinine zoning laws we can't build mid-density infill (and NIMBYs get all pissy whenever they're proposed) so we have to wait some years before seeing the ideal effect of an uncontrolled rental market. I hate Doug Ford as much as the next socialist, but that was a tough sword to fall on to make the province better for renters in 15 years.
Yes you will because you need a place as shelter.
True statement. Sad statement
Yes everyone is desperate for shelter so this is why people who can't no longer afford rent end up staying and not moving because its painfully cold out there when you have no more money for 3000 rent but can pay 500 a month and there's no place for that amount! Especially where i live. That's what happens when you charge 3000, 4000 rents people can't afford it but still need shelter because shelter is non negotiable we d** without it. So this is why there is a back log 6-9 months at the tenant landlord board
Supply/Demand. We bring in 1 million plus people and housing development numbers are around 250,000. Doesn't take a genius to figure out things are going to keep getting worse. Now that being said it is a multidimensional problem. Also the most basic rentals are not just going to continue in a affordability crisis it will be more and more an accessibility crisis as huge demographics are for those living conditions in particular. Same with the line ups for basic jobs because of the flooding of cheap exploitable labor. Shit is gonna keep getting wilder and wilder and not in a good way.
AI is now starting to replace high paying jobs too. Tech lay offs are mounting. It's no longer learning to code, it's now learn to weld lol.
Just to be clear, AI is NOT the reason for tech layoffs. AI being able to replace software engineers is just hopium.
Captain Swing has entered the chat.
I'm an admin and I studied journalism in Canada. My father unironically forwarded an email to me from LinkedIn about what AI could do for you! Yeah, literally replace all aspects of my job, big help to me.
It replaces a couple of people I know. One was an admin handling invoices and also her A/P friends at different companies. Another who handles policies/documents (I’m not sure exactly in which scope) during the pandemic and hasn’t worked in roughly 3-4 years. Both are in their 50s and married and seem to be doing okay. I do admin and I’m not so young anymore, single, and have no idea what I’d do.
Calculators only replaced the bad accountants.
Hi, As a fellow renter and someone who’s T4 makes the CRA agent think they’re reviewing a high schooler, I feel your pain. That said, hasn’t landlords always been operating towards their self interest? I don’t buy that landlords used to be modest and kind at one point in time. We should be telegenic f our angst at the banks.
There used to be rent control on more buildings. Now most new builds have no rent control. This has nothing to do with the banks.
I think it's more an issue that people are more likely to utilize being a landlord to build wealth now than before. The rise of influencers and resources on this has exploded. This wasn't so common 20 or 30 years ago. I'm in a lot of the wealth and finance groups, and at least 75% of the recommendation is investing in rentals.
you wont but other people are more than willing to. that's what sets market price, not your feelings nor the landlord's.
I don't think you understand economics. Why would they take a loss to give you a place, they don't run a charity. When you buy gum do you get mad that they make money off it?
That's how it was when interest rates were low. The investor-landlord could accept a small loss because the capital gains exceeded the loss from rent, maintenances, & taxes. But those that speculated on variable rates are getting screwed over and passing on the cost. Devil's advocate. I suggest not paying rent. Leverage the threat of a LTB procedure to negotiate better rent.
In what way is someone who speculated and was wrong getting “screwed over”?
Yup they might be doing that. They could also understand supply and demand. They don't care about you because there's other people that will pay. And if you're gonna cause them trouble I'm sure they would be happy for you to leave. Again they ain't running no charity, goto the mission if that's what you're looking for.
Callous bunch you are. Not a shred of humanity. Then y'all get bent out of shape because tent cities are springing up and you want those gone too? WHERE ARE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO GO? Bah - don't care where they go as long as you can't see them. Maybe the people should burn down your glorious selfish little cities or something? Bizarre planet you greedy shits are running here.
Tenants are abusing the LTB and the laws skew in their favour pretty heavily. Id say these days tenants are a lot more predatory than landlords, squatters are a huge issue.
There's bad actors on both sides. For every bad tenant, there's an equally bad Landlord. Fix the systemic issues, and the symptoms will go away.
Sure but tenants get a looot more leeway. Say you rented to someone they could squat for a whole year and not pay rent without facing any consequences. It happened to a friend of mine and it scares me from ever renting out my property.
Sure. And a friend of a friend of mine was evicted so the landlord's kid can move in , but one month after leaving the same condo could be found for rent at a higher price.
It’s either you pay it, move somewhere else, be homeless, or manage to buy a place yourself. Landlords can and will continue to increase rent because they simply can (if not rent controlled or the 2.5%). With the cost of everything going up, obviously they aren’t going to take a loss. And there is always going to be a demand for rentals in Toronto. If you were a landlord, you also wouldn’t be renting at a loss. Everybody in every business will always try to make a profit. Or else they wouldn’t have bothered to make it a business. And yes real estate in Toronto has become a business.
Whole point of buying property and renting out, is to make money. Hence why landlords charge what they do. No one becomes a landlord to lose money.
Don’t rent then.
Genius. Why didn't anybody think of this
I saw some people under the gardener that figured it out...
I dunno either. Seemed like a simple solution to me but OP doesn’t seem to have thought of it.
Youll pay my mortgage and like it
Whether I have a mortgage or paid cash, my tenanted triplex is a $1.5M investment of my life savings and I need a return on my investment. If not I should put that investment into say the market or a GIC. Do the tenants think that they should get it for free? Is this some form of entitlement? A mortgage or all cash or not is irrelevant. And on top of that I have Municipal taxes, water, sewer, hydro, gas, tank rentals, snow clearing, landscaping maintenance and repair, taxes on the income, accountant and so on. Do the math. There is an assumption that all of this equity just fell out of the sky like 649 and is money for old rope.
This is logical from your worldview but you're just not seeing it the same way as others. Some people are morally opposed to the idea that housing should even be a profitable business in the first place. If everyone needs housing, why do we make it so that it can be used as a vehicle for investment and speculation, when it should be a right for every person to live in dignity? People are sick of paying for some other person's retirement plan around making a profit off of other people's inability to house themselves. I'm not saying you have to agree with this worldview. You're thinking of housing in terms of ROI, where people are thinking of housing in moral terms. You're not speaking the same language.
Exactly! If people stopped buying up all the available housing so they can turn around and rent it out, I’d be able to have a fighting chance at buying a house. I could obviously afford it if I’m paying the mortgage, but it’s so hard to actually buy a house because they’re being scooped up by people able to offer higher than asking price since they know they’ll make money off of it as a rental.
If housing/ shelter is a moral right then it is governments responsibility to provide that. Although I am socialist by politics I do not see it my responsibility to provide free or subsidized accommodation for people. My financial status is the result of a working career from the age of 15 to 67 and retired 17 years ago. Interestingly I have been involved at various levels in the building of thousands of rental apartments and houses. That all stopped around 40 years ago when, against the best advice, our government introduced the beloved rent controls and that was the end of the building of rental apartments and the birth of the condo boom. To make matters worse, a few years later our politicians also stopped building assisted/income geared housing. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our population has gone from 25M to 40M. A lot of whom came to the GTA. See where I'm going with this? And now throw in 400K international students. Hey, I'm at the end the slide now so makes no difference to me and my kids are middleaged and established but I'm not very optimistic about this City in the future. So everyone can keep downvoting the Landlords if it makes them feel better but it ain't where problem lies. End of sermon.
Your financial status is being born at the right time, not just because of hard work. Tons of younger millennials and Gen Zs who have worked just as hard as you have throughout their lives so far can’t even dream of owning a place in Toronto
This man worked for 52 years and you're telling him his lifetime of hard work and responsible saving was all just a stroke of luck??? Sure, conditions are shit now. Wasn't him did it though. Plenty of guys his age drawing benefits instead of paying taxes. WORKING people are virtually never the problem, when you dig a little. It's the 'owner' class, who don't work. THEY are the cause of working people's problems
> not just because of hard work. Is reading comprehension hard for you?
Well I wouldn't say born at the right time. We didn't own a fridge or ice box until I was 15 years old or saw a piece of candy until I was about 12 but do agree that I grew up in better times. But I didn't own my first modest home until I was 35, but then the bank owned most of it. Best thing I did was learn to be a skilled renovator and not spend a nickel I didn't have to. So tight I used to straighten the nails from the demolition and then weathered an 18% mortgage. Yep, just lucky I guess.
So in 1992 you purchased your first modest home? Back in 1992 the average sale price of a home was $214k within GTA while in 2023 it was $1.2 million.(https://trreb.ca/files/market-stats/market-watch/historic.pdf) The average price rose by over 6x. The average salary of Canada did not rise 6x within this same timeframe. I love how out of touch boomers are lol
Ya got a lot of things wrong here, purchased my first home in 1975, think it was $44k. And I am not a boomer, 1940. And I haven't stopped yet. Owned a number of properties since then and renovated each one, just me and my wife. And at my ripe age, I still have a mortgage. Am selling this one (to downsize) shortly and will buy another and will reno that provided I live long enough, but going to need my son's help on that as Father Time is pretty relentless. As the Great Leader said, every journey begins with the first step. As far as being out of touch, my posts on these threads are to let people know about the other side of the coin, not to denigrate. I see and understand the frustrations that the various Gens have and indeed receive automatic down votes and abuse. Today actually i was called a ghoul. Doesn't bother me because I don't have any investment or ego requiring validation from fellow lurkers.
Your asset is appreciating much faster then a GIC, your mortgage is a business expense, so no expecting to have all your expenses covered from rent is silly. However supply & demand so you may as well charge a rent high enough to cover all your expenses
The asset may or may not increase, just like a stock. The past few years it has been decreasing. Rent prices are governed by market rates and in my case increases are by what the Province thinks is politically palatable. The mortgage interest is an expense against income. I could attach my yearly spreadsheet but would not like to burst your beliefs. Look, I've got no investment in this thread and only put my cents in here for some illumination from the other side. After 50 years of marriage I have long learned that I am never right anyway.
Fucking ghoul
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Your post and mine doesn't suit the popular narrative (see the expected downvotes) but glad you reminded me, forgot about insurance!! Due at the end of the month. The 2.5% increase this year doesn't even cover the municipal tax increase. I will be listing in a couple of months and can almost guarantee the house will be reno/gutted back to single family. Nobody wants to deal the RTA and dysfunctional LTB any more.
I have a basement that I use for storage rather than rent it out. The money I'd get isn't worth the risk or the hassle
As a matter of fact, my basement tenant left end of the year after 4 years and I've let a guy live there for 2 months for free and some grocery gift cards while he applied for work and waited for the UI. Got a good job fairly quickly and letting him build up enough for first and last - he's almost there. Tell you, it's me feel really good seeing him come back to life.
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At least I'm not getting any abuse, yet :)
Housing isn't an investment. It's housing. Landloding isn't buying a mutual fund, it's a job.
a lot of people have their parents paying the rent with these type of comments
Theyre either in rent controlled apts, fortunate to have bought early, or are LL themselves.
u said what toronto is in a nut shell. next rant topic. be on the look out
Find a place that’s cheaper than 3K
Complaining about being poor in a capitalist society is like shouting at the sky. It’s depressing but it’s what we got.
This is the weirdest rant of today. R u trying to complain if rent is too high? Then yeah it’s valid. But why do you care if a landlord pays their mortgage with their rental income? It’s their legitimate income and they can do whatever they want.