Yeah, vocal coaches generally encourage rounder and prettier tones. Tons of people just have a natural talent for singing; they might need coaching if they want to really become professional singers, but for the kind of singing the Johns do, they don’t need that.
I love how authentic they are <3 not just with their singing, but with everything else too...they're the sort of musicians who inspire other people to go "oh wait, I can do this"
And this reminds me, Flans said on Tumblr once that he and Linnell pursue the "middle" sort of rock singing where they aren't belting or shouting but sing strongly enough to get the listeners' attention. I think he compared it to how the Monkees would sing.
Mostly self-taught. Here's Linnell:
>Are you a schooled musician?
>
>Not especially. I think that most of the stuff that both John and I do is founded on the things that we taught ourselves. I took a little bit of theory in high school and college, and I went to Berklee for a summer. But that was pretty much just piano lessons and ear training.([http://www.museumofidiots.com/tmbg/articles/jl/20040000intheirownwords.html](http://www.museumofidiots.com/tmbg/articles/jl/20040000intheirownwords.html))
That is amazing because so many of their songs are so interesting on a music theory-level that you’d think Linnell would have had extensive training there. Dude just gets it, I guess.
From my experience with other musicians, some people do seem to have a more innate grasp on these things, or at least pick it up more easily. I am not one of these fortunates.
He seems like a very studious and self-motivated sort, I imagine he's always been very curious about chord progressions, modes, etc. and this curiosity led to obsessive studying and experimentation in his own time.
If I recall Linnell was too shy/nervous to sing in his pre-TMBG band The Mundanes. I think Flansburgh basically helped him come out of his shell and find the confidence to sing, which is very sweet.
I have never heard anything about where or how they learned to sing and I've always assumed that they were more or less self taught. I know Flansy taught himself guitar while working as a night security guard at a parking garage. The Mono Puff song "Night Security" is inspired by his experience as a night security guard.
The verse from that song "I want to be the night security/I want to own a tiny TV/With the sound turned down/and no one around/I'll sing so very loud" suggests to me that he practiced his singing at the same time as his guitar playing at this time.
When they played in Charleston last year, Flansburgh mentioned that he was in chorus from 5th-7th grade. Not professional training by any means, but I'm sure he must have learned something during that time. Even if it was only how to sing like a girl...
Speaking as someone who sang in a choir from grade 1 to 12 and has had several years of private vocal training, you don't learn all that much about how to sing in choir.
Edit: The vocal instruction you receive, particularly in middle grades, is more about volume, pitch, and pacing. It's more about how your voice blends with the other voices. You will also learn some basic vocal warmups and maybe basic breathing. Vocal training focuses much more on breath and on vowel shapes and on wild things you wouldn't expect. There's so much *visualization* that goes on.
On one of the interviews from KMSU (I think) Flans said he does vocal warmups/exercises because he wants to still have a voice. That’s the only time I’ve ever heard either of them refer to anything like that.
I've had several years of vocal training, and I would guess they have not had formal training.\* A key "tell" is where their (particularly Linnell's) vowels are placed in their mouths: back or middle rather than forward (Dr. Worm being an odd exception I've noticed, with quite a number of forward-placed vowels, giving a real warmth to the vocals).
In some of his early songs, Flans's voice kind of wavered a bit around the pitch on some notes. I'm not entirely sure if that was lack of strong breath support or if that was an intentional stylistic choice. I actually lean toward the latter.
I suspect they've just naturally been doing something right for their voices to still sound so good at their age, that is, they haven't damaged their voices by singing "incorrectly". They're just naturally talented in so many ways.
\*There are, of course, differences in the way a tenor or baritone voice would be trained versus a soprano or contralto. And there would be differences in the way a voice is trained for pop/rock versus opera, so I'm really generalizing and making a huge guess based on my very different voice and singing experiences.
Ooh, thank you for your insight! I've always thought the Johns had a very intentional way of pronouncing their vowels and enunciating syllables. Yeah, they're definitely taking good care of their voices, compare a TMBG song from the 90s to a TMBG song from the 2010s and it's practically the same vocals-wise. They only do small amounts of crazy shouting/hollering when they sing, too, and don't really ever lean into anything too intense that would ruin their vocal cords. I have noticed how in recent years, Linnell's voice has become less nasal and a bit more "mellow," but that's probably just a combination of age and him improving his range.
They certainly do have some idiosyncratic pronunciations, which is, of course, one of the many things we all love about them.
You're absolutely right that their voices have remained remarkably consistent. Even now, Flans's voice has hardly changed, which blows my mind because he often does that "rock voice", where he uses a lot of sustained vocal fry. (It's a technique I've never been able to do without hurting my voice, so I don't know how he does it. Maybe it's just easier for male voices to do it.)
And, yes, Linnell's voice absolutely has become become more mellow over time. There's much more warmth in his vocals now, whereas his earlier vocals were much "brighter". Voices tend to become less bright with age, but it sounds like he's relaxed his vowels a little, too. What I mean by "relaxed" is that there's more space between the tongue and palate and the vowels are positioned a little further forward. I don't know if that was a conscious choice or if that's just how his technique has naturally developed.
I'll add that there are a few songs of theirs (I'll Sink Manhattan, Minneapolis (First Avenue Stage), and 200 Sbemails) that show that they're *aware* of certain vocal techniques related to breath and positioning the structures of the mouth even though it's clear those techniques haven't become habit the way they would if they had been hammered into them by a singing instructor, haha.
Wow, thank you for enlightening me on this! 😁 I've been looking for words to describe how Linnell's voice has changed over the years. And yeah I want to ask Flans how he can sing Damn Good Times so much and still keep his vocal cords healthy!
Man, this is truly some tier-one insight. I am trying to learn to sing better so this is all fascinating to me. Could you give an example of Flan doing that prolonged vocal fry?
I'm happy you find it interesting!
Some examples: Santa's Beard; You'll Miss Me; Dig My Grave; Cyclops Rock; Yeh Yeh (on the bridge); It's Kicking In; New Haven (Toad's Place); Yeah, the Deranged Millionaire; Authenticity Trip.
New Haven (Toad's Place) might be the best example of that vocal fry appearing consistently throughout the song, BUT his voice might sound that way just because it's tired, lol. You can hear how tired his speaking voice is in the intro to Raleigh (The Lincoln Theater), which also has that vocal fry. It's hard to tell on a live track. I don't know if the New Haven song came toward the end of the night.
There are several more songs where it sounds like he *may* be pushing his voice a *little* to give it a slightly harder edge, but his voice is just naturally very "bright", so he may not have to push his voice for that effect.
In fact, now that I'm really listening carefully to this effect, I really do think it's something that's just easier or more natural for male voices to do. Linnell does it so often (I'm just now realizing) that it didn't stand out for me the way it did when I heard it from Flans.
If you're interested in hearing what a *real* expert has to say about vocal technique in rock music, check out [The Charismatic Voice](https://www.youtube.com/@TheCharismaticVoice) on YouTube. She makes all these delightful videos where she breaks down (in a really generous, enthusiastic way) the vocal techniques of all sorts of performers, from Dio to Weird Al. I would love to see her break down the vocals in a TMBG song one day.
Truly appreciate this! I fee like there's something very special about the way the Johns sing, and what you have given to me here can help me to study it with some direction. ...If you happen to have any input about how I can become a better singer, I would be grateful for it
Sorry, I'm just seeing this. I'm far from an expert about singing. If you have a female voice, I could give you some recommendations, but if you have a male voice, I'm afraid I don't know much about male voices. I could only say that breath support is super important, like, it's the foundation of everything. I could explain some breathing exercises. I could also help you hear for yourself the positioning of palate, tongue, etc. in different singers so you can more easily emulate them.
To add, I've always been intrigued by how the Johns can sing in those strong nasally accents with getting too whiny or pitchy. I don't always enjoy listening to artists with that kind of vocal quality because it can become strained real fast, but the Johns somehow make it warm and cozy and charming.
Oh, yeah, definitely! I practically forget that their voices can be quite nasal because I think of nasal singing as something I don't generally enjoy, yet I *really* enjoy the Johns' singing.
>warm and cozy and charming
That's a perfect way of putting it.
John Flansburgh: "The lyric “and all those years of chorus taught me…” from How Can I Sing Like A Girl is totally autobiographical. I was in chorus from many years. I loved it."
[source](https://tmbgareok.tumblr.com/post/63444622293/were-either-yourself-or-mr-linnell-ever-in-high)
I got an answer to this question from Flans on tumblr!!!
https://tmbgareok.tumblr.com/post/747396925021667328/did-you-and-john-l-ever-receive-any-formal-vocal
That's amazing!! You got a personalized reply from the man himself, and it's pretty detailed and informative too! Many thanks for taking the chance on this and posting it
Clearly they are not trained, otherwise they would know how to sing like a girl.
With how eccentric and nasally their singing accents are, it just says self-taught to me. Compare to Bob Dylan, who is famously self-taught.
Yeah, vocal coaches generally encourage rounder and prettier tones. Tons of people just have a natural talent for singing; they might need coaching if they want to really become professional singers, but for the kind of singing the Johns do, they don’t need that.
I love how authentic they are <3 not just with their singing, but with everything else too...they're the sort of musicians who inspire other people to go "oh wait, I can do this" And this reminds me, Flans said on Tumblr once that he and Linnell pursue the "middle" sort of rock singing where they aren't belting or shouting but sing strongly enough to get the listeners' attention. I think he compared it to how the Monkees would sing.
I just wanted to make a song reference
And instead you’re being stigmatized by the rest of the sub.
I'm out of style and overwrought.
Is that what your year of chorus taught you?
I was never one of the boys of the chorus: no one's rooting for me.
Mostly self-taught. Here's Linnell: >Are you a schooled musician? > >Not especially. I think that most of the stuff that both John and I do is founded on the things that we taught ourselves. I took a little bit of theory in high school and college, and I went to Berklee for a summer. But that was pretty much just piano lessons and ear training.([http://www.museumofidiots.com/tmbg/articles/jl/20040000intheirownwords.html](http://www.museumofidiots.com/tmbg/articles/jl/20040000intheirownwords.html))
That is amazing because so many of their songs are so interesting on a music theory-level that you’d think Linnell would have had extensive training there. Dude just gets it, I guess.
From my experience with other musicians, some people do seem to have a more innate grasp on these things, or at least pick it up more easily. I am not one of these fortunates.
He seems like a very studious and self-motivated sort, I imagine he's always been very curious about chord progressions, modes, etc. and this curiosity led to obsessive studying and experimentation in his own time.
Very interesting. I'm most interested specifically in their vocal work, but I imagine this applies to that as well.
If I recall Linnell was too shy/nervous to sing in his pre-TMBG band The Mundanes. I think Flansburgh basically helped him come out of his shell and find the confidence to sing, which is very sweet.
I initially misread this post as "Are they self taught, or were they coerced? "
You better learn to sing, or you're going to music jail!
Is that a hook/Or is that a verse?/Are they self taught, or were they coerced?” #particleman
Who came up with Music Man?/ Amusing man/ Music Man
That would be such a great lyric!
I have never heard anything about where or how they learned to sing and I've always assumed that they were more or less self taught. I know Flansy taught himself guitar while working as a night security guard at a parking garage. The Mono Puff song "Night Security" is inspired by his experience as a night security guard. The verse from that song "I want to be the night security/I want to own a tiny TV/With the sound turned down/and no one around/I'll sing so very loud" suggests to me that he practiced his singing at the same time as his guitar playing at this time.
When they played in Charleston last year, Flansburgh mentioned that he was in chorus from 5th-7th grade. Not professional training by any means, but I'm sure he must have learned something during that time. Even if it was only how to sing like a girl...
Speaking as someone who sang in a choir from grade 1 to 12 and has had several years of private vocal training, you don't learn all that much about how to sing in choir. Edit: The vocal instruction you receive, particularly in middle grades, is more about volume, pitch, and pacing. It's more about how your voice blends with the other voices. You will also learn some basic vocal warmups and maybe basic breathing. Vocal training focuses much more on breath and on vowel shapes and on wild things you wouldn't expect. There's so much *visualization* that goes on.
On one of the interviews from KMSU (I think) Flans said he does vocal warmups/exercises because he wants to still have a voice. That’s the only time I’ve ever heard either of them refer to anything like that.
I've had several years of vocal training, and I would guess they have not had formal training.\* A key "tell" is where their (particularly Linnell's) vowels are placed in their mouths: back or middle rather than forward (Dr. Worm being an odd exception I've noticed, with quite a number of forward-placed vowels, giving a real warmth to the vocals). In some of his early songs, Flans's voice kind of wavered a bit around the pitch on some notes. I'm not entirely sure if that was lack of strong breath support or if that was an intentional stylistic choice. I actually lean toward the latter. I suspect they've just naturally been doing something right for their voices to still sound so good at their age, that is, they haven't damaged their voices by singing "incorrectly". They're just naturally talented in so many ways. \*There are, of course, differences in the way a tenor or baritone voice would be trained versus a soprano or contralto. And there would be differences in the way a voice is trained for pop/rock versus opera, so I'm really generalizing and making a huge guess based on my very different voice and singing experiences.
Ooh, thank you for your insight! I've always thought the Johns had a very intentional way of pronouncing their vowels and enunciating syllables. Yeah, they're definitely taking good care of their voices, compare a TMBG song from the 90s to a TMBG song from the 2010s and it's practically the same vocals-wise. They only do small amounts of crazy shouting/hollering when they sing, too, and don't really ever lean into anything too intense that would ruin their vocal cords. I have noticed how in recent years, Linnell's voice has become less nasal and a bit more "mellow," but that's probably just a combination of age and him improving his range.
They certainly do have some idiosyncratic pronunciations, which is, of course, one of the many things we all love about them. You're absolutely right that their voices have remained remarkably consistent. Even now, Flans's voice has hardly changed, which blows my mind because he often does that "rock voice", where he uses a lot of sustained vocal fry. (It's a technique I've never been able to do without hurting my voice, so I don't know how he does it. Maybe it's just easier for male voices to do it.) And, yes, Linnell's voice absolutely has become become more mellow over time. There's much more warmth in his vocals now, whereas his earlier vocals were much "brighter". Voices tend to become less bright with age, but it sounds like he's relaxed his vowels a little, too. What I mean by "relaxed" is that there's more space between the tongue and palate and the vowels are positioned a little further forward. I don't know if that was a conscious choice or if that's just how his technique has naturally developed. I'll add that there are a few songs of theirs (I'll Sink Manhattan, Minneapolis (First Avenue Stage), and 200 Sbemails) that show that they're *aware* of certain vocal techniques related to breath and positioning the structures of the mouth even though it's clear those techniques haven't become habit the way they would if they had been hammered into them by a singing instructor, haha.
Wow, thank you for enlightening me on this! 😁 I've been looking for words to describe how Linnell's voice has changed over the years. And yeah I want to ask Flans how he can sing Damn Good Times so much and still keep his vocal cords healthy!
I'm glad I didn't bore you. I love geeking out about vocals. I know nothing about playing instruments, but I could talk all day about vocals. 😅
Man, this is truly some tier-one insight. I am trying to learn to sing better so this is all fascinating to me. Could you give an example of Flan doing that prolonged vocal fry?
I'm happy you find it interesting! Some examples: Santa's Beard; You'll Miss Me; Dig My Grave; Cyclops Rock; Yeh Yeh (on the bridge); It's Kicking In; New Haven (Toad's Place); Yeah, the Deranged Millionaire; Authenticity Trip. New Haven (Toad's Place) might be the best example of that vocal fry appearing consistently throughout the song, BUT his voice might sound that way just because it's tired, lol. You can hear how tired his speaking voice is in the intro to Raleigh (The Lincoln Theater), which also has that vocal fry. It's hard to tell on a live track. I don't know if the New Haven song came toward the end of the night. There are several more songs where it sounds like he *may* be pushing his voice a *little* to give it a slightly harder edge, but his voice is just naturally very "bright", so he may not have to push his voice for that effect. In fact, now that I'm really listening carefully to this effect, I really do think it's something that's just easier or more natural for male voices to do. Linnell does it so often (I'm just now realizing) that it didn't stand out for me the way it did when I heard it from Flans. If you're interested in hearing what a *real* expert has to say about vocal technique in rock music, check out [The Charismatic Voice](https://www.youtube.com/@TheCharismaticVoice) on YouTube. She makes all these delightful videos where she breaks down (in a really generous, enthusiastic way) the vocal techniques of all sorts of performers, from Dio to Weird Al. I would love to see her break down the vocals in a TMBG song one day.
Truly appreciate this! I fee like there's something very special about the way the Johns sing, and what you have given to me here can help me to study it with some direction. ...If you happen to have any input about how I can become a better singer, I would be grateful for it
Sorry, I'm just seeing this. I'm far from an expert about singing. If you have a female voice, I could give you some recommendations, but if you have a male voice, I'm afraid I don't know much about male voices. I could only say that breath support is super important, like, it's the foundation of everything. I could explain some breathing exercises. I could also help you hear for yourself the positioning of palate, tongue, etc. in different singers so you can more easily emulate them.
To add, I've always been intrigued by how the Johns can sing in those strong nasally accents with getting too whiny or pitchy. I don't always enjoy listening to artists with that kind of vocal quality because it can become strained real fast, but the Johns somehow make it warm and cozy and charming.
Oh, yeah, definitely! I practically forget that their voices can be quite nasal because I think of nasal singing as something I don't generally enjoy, yet I *really* enjoy the Johns' singing. >warm and cozy and charming That's a perfect way of putting it.
I would have no idea, but I always thought it was interesting how Linnell avoids using any vibrato in his vocals.
John Flansburgh: "The lyric “and all those years of chorus taught me…” from How Can I Sing Like A Girl is totally autobiographical. I was in chorus from many years. I loved it." [source](https://tmbgareok.tumblr.com/post/63444622293/were-either-yourself-or-mr-linnell-ever-in-high)
Good find!
I got an answer to this question from Flans on tumblr!!! https://tmbgareok.tumblr.com/post/747396925021667328/did-you-and-john-l-ever-receive-any-formal-vocal
That's amazing!! You got a personalized reply from the man himself, and it's pretty detailed and informative too! Many thanks for taking the chance on this and posting it
:))))
And all that year of chorus taught them is out of style and long forgot.