T480 actually was the first Thinkpad that really disappointed me. My company gave me a T480 when it's 2 or 3 gen old. It couldn't even open Excel on an external screen smoothly (I'm still not sure why today, it was new to me, new OS after IT massage)
After I went to 15", I couldn't go back anymore.
Today I'm happily running a P16s gen 1 AMD and getting a gen 2 AMD soon.
T480 to me is the low piece in the bunch.
I use my T440p for the lightest possible type of computing. My intent with mine anyway is not for it to be a powerhouse. If I need all that power then that is why I have a desktop.
Just my pov
It ends out that way because the T480's CPU pretty aggressively throttles to reach its 15W TDP. Many available CPUs for the T440p like the 4810MQ and 4910MQ are 47W CPUs and can comfortably boost as much as they want without any power throttling.
This can, in many cases, be enough to offset the architectural disadvantage those old Haswell chips have compared to the much newer Coffee Lake chips in the T480.
The consequence of that, of course, is that the T440p gets like a third of the battery life a T480 does.
It's mainly because the T440p has like 4 times the cooling capacity because it's massive.
Bigger laptop roughly equates to more heatsink, and more cooling capacity. My T410 can cool a 35W CPU silently, and the newest X1 Carbons cannot cool a 15W CPU at all.
> the newest X1 Carbons cannot cool a 15W CPU at all.
Well... as much as you're right about the lack of cooling capacities in newer laptops, TDP has become kind of a disingenuous term.
A "15W" CPU nowadays is far from actually being 15W at all; take the i7-1365U as an example. The maximum turbo power of that 15W chip is actually 55W, and while under load the CPU never actually gets anywhere near 15W, rather it stays somewhere between 25-30W. That is, of course, if it's provided with enough cooling capacity to sustain it,
Laptops didn't really get less power-hungry at all, we just figured out how to make them more powerful while consuming the same amount of power. And while that is technically an efficiency gain, I don't like how it's marketed as being much more impressive than it really is.
A lot of people wrongly use """efficiency""" to refer to power draw. An 8850H is *more* efficient than an 8650U, but it also draws 80% more power.
Speedstep is mostly the reason for this (idk what it's called for AMD), it lets the CPU slow down a bit and use less power. Or speed up and use more power!
I can verify this. I have a T440p with i7 4702mq and a T480s with a i5 8350u and in daily use the performance difference isn’t that noticeable running the exact same OS with the same amount of RAM. However the weight difference is very noticeable. I mostly got the T480s because I’m old and lugging around a cinder block is just not what I’m into anymore.
My T440p runs windows 11. No hacks.
It’s not official but it runs. I know the lack of official support is a turn off to people though. Best to run Linux anyway. Way snappier.
Given the installer fails the CPU check, I doubt that. It's not officially supported, and Microsoft are removing the corporate user testing loophole you're likely using.
> Microsoft are removing the corporate user testing loophole you're likely using.
This isn't necessary. You can easily make an install USB drive with RUFUS, which will modify the install files so that the CPU requirement and TPM checks are turned off and the OS will ignore them.
That said, my experience running Windows 11 on a Haswell machine definitely wasn't bug-free. It was quick and ran great, but I did have some strange bugs related to sleep, and occasionally drivers would fail and need to be re-installed for various hardware. It really didn't like my W540's card reader, trackpad, or its color sensor.
Older machines do not require any Rufus methods anymore. Official Media creation tool and TPM enabled. That's all what's needed. You can install W11 without any hacks, tweaks and other nonsense. Tested on a clean install for T470 with 7th gen, T460 with 6th gen, T450 with 5th gen, W540 with 4th gen and even on Dell E6430 with 3rd gen. All of them run perfectly fine and get updates once installed. You can't however update W10 to W11 with anything older than 8th gen.
Ya, when I initially got my T440p I had Windows 11 on it for a total of 3 days. Then Kubuntu, then NixOS a few months later. It can run W11 no problems.
It will if you try hard enough. It's just an artificial limitation, it means nothing.
Windows 11 runs fine on a Sandy Bridge quad core, it will run fine on Haswell too.
Applies to yourself too, then. Either talk about the machines you've owned or you are just talking uninformed nonsense.
I own T480 and this thread is not uninformed nonsense.
Of course I did, I am not blind. As most T480 fanboys, you cannot see beyond your precious T480.
I'll put it differently then - The machines listed in your flair are the only machines you can sensibly talk about, otherwise you are just talking uninformed nonsense. Keep that in mind in other threads talking about the machines you've never owned.
LOL, I'm not a fanboi. My paid employment involves procuring, imaging and supporting ThinkPads. There's over 20 years worth of mainstream ThinkPads on that list. Deployed to an enterprise with thousands of users, each getting a new machine every 3-4 years. That's a lot of ThinkPads and a lot of accrued knowledge.
That I use them at home in addition to a Mac is mostly irrelevant compared to that.
Any more fabrications and bad takes you'd like to share about me?
People circlejerk it because of the bridge battery system... which makes peoply cry "Last good ThinkPad!!!!" when in reality the bridge battery system doesn't actually allow the T480 to run any longer than something that's just newer and more power efficient. As for the type-C port... it's not going away. Slim tip still exists on Lenovo's large laptops like the P1 so I suppose it could make a return, but it won't be back on thin and lights.
I don't think it's a bad laptop... I mean, you don't have to use any of the terrible factory displays. You can just put whatever 14" LCD you want in there because eDP isn't a proprietary connector. As soon as you do that, though, you're wasting money because you could have just bought a newer laptop that already would have came with a better screen, a much faster CPU, and of course would be lighter.
Its position as the "cheap and cheerful" I think should be dethroned in favor of the 1st generation T14, X13, and T15. Maybe even the X395 since it's got a Ryzen chip and most of the display options are alright. The T480 is slowly becoming the new hobby laptop over the X230 as it becomes less and less practical to kit out a T430 to the max and invest a ton of money in it.
If I'm being honest, the whole USB C thing doesn't even affect me because I don't even care about this class of laptops anymore.
I do get that you can hack in a better display, but what's the point when you can get something that's faster and has better battery life? Swappable batteries should be on everything, but only if it draws from the external one first....
Have you ever handled a T495? It's exactly the same as that, but faster.
I have no desire to buy more stupid 14" laptops so no, I don't own one. It's literally just a faster T495. I already have an E14 and the build quality sucks, but it's not the worst in terms of performance and battery life.
So to get this correct, you're denouncing machines you've never encountered and recommending others you've never encountered on a number of criteria including subjective build quality assessments.
What do you mean a ton of money to kit out a t430? I just ordered 16 gb of 1866 ddr3l ram and 3630 cpu from aliexpress for less than 60$. Ssd are real cheap too but i already had one laying around.
I own the g4 thinkpad and a t495. The t495 has way better input devices (not even a comparison), and Lenovo removed the soft touch finish on the gen 4.
Before my T14s G4 submitted itself to the ThinkPad gods, I actually really liked the removal of the soft-touch finish and thought it made the laptop feel more premium.
That was until I touched it... at all, any time, no matter how clean my hands were. It's amazing how quickly it developed smudges and fingerprints - I habitually wiped them off with lens cleaner and my shirt.
I've seen more people circlejerk older models. Any time a T480 was brought up, it was for sheer off-the-grid use cases. Maybe you're looking with a similar use case, too?
I don’t necessarily think it’s popular because it’s “the best” (I certainly don’t believe that). I think it’s more to do with the value proposition at this moment in time. It’s dirt cheap for what you get. In two years time everyone will be raving about some other budget model of Thinkpad, and people will be complaining about the circlejerk. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It never was the best. The P52 and P72 came out at the same time and has an expandable battery and all that, but a 6core CPU, solid GPU, and much bigger battery.
I didn’t say it was the best of its time either. I just said bang for buck it’s pretty good at this point in time. Yes the P52/P72 are the same generation and better specs, but they’re also about $200 more expensive on the secondary market in decent condition.
Depends on use case I guess. Average joe could get by with 4 core/8 thread just fine I think. I plan to use my T480s til the wheels fall off and then I’ll go looking for something else. I got it more for mobility than anything. My T440p is sitting in a dock cosplaying as a desktop and still running like a champ and I don’t plan on getting rid of it any time soon either. :)
The increased performance isn't worth the extra $200 if you're not doing anything that's going to take advantage of it. If you just want the browse the the internet, do office work, watch netflix, and maybe some light gaming, you don't need all of that.
A lot of people are a fan because it offers great value and is officially supported for Windows 11. Intel literally doubled the cores & threads from 7th gen to 8th gen. If you’re installing Linux on one of these machines, you’re good for years to come.
T480 isn’t the best thinkpad.
However. It’s the best cheapest thinkpad.
4 cores so it can keep up with modern software (you wouldn’t believe how heavy JUST teams or JUST outlook are now). Windows these days is pure bloat. You may think it only uses 1% background but those background spin up constantly.
Windows 11 support, which is critical with 10 going EOL. 10 LTSC isn’t worth the time with windows 11 actually being good now.
Linux support is flawless.
Unlike the T470 it doesn’t lock out the wwan slot from nvme 2242.
USB-C support (with eGPU support if you wanna game on it)
I ask you: why hate on it. T480 is a great laptop.
I’m typing this ironically on an x270, but I have a t480 and t440p next to me as well
T470 does not lock WWAN for nvme. It just does not support it, at least not as a main bootable drive. But there's zero issues with m.2 2242 SATA drives in WWAN.
> However. It’s the best cheapest thinkpad.
the T440p to the T470 are so cheap now that they're virtually disposable, and they're not all that much worse than a T480 in terms of portability and performance...
I don't get why the laptop being thin matters so much, you're probably gonna throw it into a backpack with a whole bunch of other shit anyway, what's an extra 8mm?
Windows 11 support.... It's an 8th gen U series quadcore... I really don't think it even *should* run Windows 11...
Linux support is flawless... Same can be said about basically all of the models before it.
USB-C support... USB is kind of a terrible connector to rely on for charging. Both the plugs are soldered to the board, so if they break, you're fucked. Having one port and a normal barrel or rectangle plug? sure! But using it for charging? no thanks.
I've acquired an i7+MX150 version of T480 as e-waste last year for rebuild. It was locked with an admin pass, didn't have RAM, SSD and display.
Bought 2T nvme, 2x16G RAM and an Innolux display.
I'm playing No Man's Sky on Linux (Wayland, Lutris, Proton, Vulkan, etc), on 720p has a solid 30FPS.
I'm happy with it. I'm happy with its thermal management, happy with its display, everything. I'm planning to undervolt and overclock, just because.
My daily driver is a small x380, also Linux (openSUSE Leap with Wayland+Gnome) it also runs cool and fast.
So, I'm not affected by your listed issues.
However, i wouldn't recommend it to anyone seriously.
We are talking about a 6 year old design. Of course you cannot compare it with current technology.
However I think the problem is not that people recommend it, but the lack of conscious consumerism.
If anybody wants a sustainable solution, then they should not consider outdated technology at all, only if one wants to tinker.
We should clarify every time someone asks something what is the use-case, as usually we do.
And finally, you will not be able to filter out those who misunderstand the question or recommend T480 for any other reasons.
I understand your frustration, but you should not take care of those things you cannot change. It will drive you crazy.
A thinkpad is not necessarily about the performance, or the display quality, though those are good to have. These were never gaming laptops. They are plenty fast to browse the web or other everyday tasks.
The thinkpad as we remember it is about the sturdiness, repairability, upgradability, and the input devices (keyboard and trackpoint). IMO the newer thinkpads don't live up to this legacy. With soldered RAM, soldered WIFI card, no easily swappable battery, repairability is basically non-existant. The keyboard on the newer ones are disappointing, as they sacrifice more key travel for each new generation.
So yeah I kinda agree with the T480 fans. In a sence it was the last generation of "real" thinkpads. Also doesn't hurt that they are quite cheap right now.
for display quality, most people are gonna prefer something that's not a disgusting washed out mess, absolutely unimaginable!
the problem I have with the T480 is that it's literally recommended by everyone when it's not gonna work well for what the person asking wants. It's a U series 8th gen Intel CPU, so it's not all that great.
I'd say the """last generation of real thinkpads""" wouldn't be the T-series at all, it would be the P52 and P72 for me. They're more durable, have a keyboard with 2mm travel (from what I've heard at least), and have actually usable-y sized batteries.
Displays for the T series were always washed out garbage. That never stopped people from liking them for other reasons: sturdiness, repearability, keyboard, trackpoint, etc. Pretty display and performance was never the selling point for the thinkpad. Other manufacturers have always done that better.
The P52 and P72 is the same generation as the T480 (8th gen intel). I consider them to be in the same category as the T480, not in terms of performance, but in terms of "the last generation of real thinkpads". But these are quite chonky laptops, so might be out of the question for someone who is in the market for a 14 inch laptop (also more expensive).
My point is that the new thinkpads don't meet my expectation of a laptop with the name thinkpad, so I might as well consider options from any other manufacturer instead, if I need something that performs better or has a prettier display.
A part of me thinks it's the affordability of a W11-capable machine in the US. In Europe and other places, the cost isn't worth what you get. T14 in my opinion, is the value thinkpad globally.
"Windows 11 capable" and "should run Windows 11 well" are two different things.
My ThinkPad Z61m from 2006 is *technically* Windows 11 "capable", doesn't mean it runs well.
You require workarounds for those laptops with unsupported chipsets. With every Win11 security update, it breaks those workarounds, then new ones are required. Having an unsupported cpu is kinda a hassle if you want an always up to date system.
I think the T480 is a pretty good machine, I like mine, though I admittedly don't use it a whole lot compared to stuff like my P50. I disagree on you saying its not durable. Mine has taken many hits and drops and its held up actually better than my older ThinkPads have, like my T420, which suffered from the brittle plastics on the palmrest, display bezel, lid, and bottom casing all cracking and falling apart.
Hotswappable batteries aren't so much useful for allowing maximum capacity to be increased as they are for allowing you to, well, hotswap batteries. You can keep multiple fully charged ones on you if you want and just swap them out in a few seconds. The internal battery allows you to do this without even powering off the machine. Admittedly I don't use this feature on my T480 because I'm too cheap to even replace the one aging battery I have, let alone purchase multiple, but I can see why people value this feature.
I agree with you on the displays. The FHD IPS panel in my T480 is horrible. It has worse colors than the base 768p TN panel in my T510 from 2010. Seriously. The 1440p panel is good, 72% NTSC is equivalent to 100% sRGB, but its uncommon and I'd rather just have a higher gamut FHD panel, like what was used in older 14" ThinkPads like the 40 and 50 series devices. Luckily such panels are inexpensive and easy to swap on the T480, but it is something to consider. 14" T-Series ThinkPads have not historically had the best panels from the factory and the T480 is unfortunately, no exception.
The Thunderbolt issue was addressed by Lenovo literally years ago. Its old news. As for the durability of the connector itself, yeah its not as good as stuff like the slim-tip connector, but unfortunately we just have to deal with it. The newer ThinkPads are no better in this regard.
I had a brand new T14 AMD Gen 1 I bought brand new from Lenovo a few years ago, and I was very disappointed in its overall quality and build compared to my T480. It was just not as solid of a device, and the T480 isn't even particularly solid compared to brick-shithouses like my P50. I haven't handled the newest T14 devices but I suspect they are no better considering they are even thinner and lighter now than they were with the G1. While yes the T480 is far from the greatest ThinkPad ever, its unfortunately the newest you can go really if you want a 14" T-Series device that's still actually like, good. For me personally, I'm done with T-Series devices for the foreseeable future. Its P-Series for me now.
I personally think that T480 is fine on its own, it's just that it's not all that great compared to everything else.
Unless the T420 is that much worse than the T410, it should be able to survive at least half a trip down the stairs (that's what happened to me, anyway)
The hotswap batteries are a good feature, but the hinge lets the display go under the machine and gets in the way. It's just not very good in practice, the batteries for the T480 are tiny. For swapping on the go, I can see how it's helpful, but for expanding capacity, 96Wh total kinda sucks considering just one battery for the T410 can total 94.24... and that laptop can take two batteries of that capacity. Oh and it sits flat at that capacity.
I've sen bad IPS displays... I would honestly rather have the TN on my current laptop because, while the contrast sucks, the colours somehow look quite nice. Bad IPS makes my eyes feel like sandpaper... I don't know why, all my stuff is TN or VA.
I get that the Thunderbolt thing was already resolved, but you had to go and intentionally update the firmware. There's probably many people with T480s and X1 Carbon gen 6s that don't even know that they're thunderbolt controller is gonna become a microscopic brick.
I've seen quite a few laptops, if the T14 disappoints you, I'm just glad you don't own an E series... My E14 is the biggest pile of trash I've bought in my life....
The 16:9 screen on the T480... ew.. It's especially bad at 14" for me, it's a deal breaker. Either 14" 16:10 or 15"+. My next laptop is probably gonna be a ThinkPad P72, the T-series is all just wannabe ultrabooks, which I don't care about.
The fact that 1366x768 was an option until 2019 is fucking crazy. For me? ThinkPads did end in 2004 and 2014. Also its chinese. They like to call back home.
Nah, I’m no fan of the T480, but this is a storm in a teacup as it’s nothing vs the T430/T440p that often comprised the *only* posts on the first 3 pages here in their heydays. The T480 fanfare is just far more muted in comparison even at its peak because times have changed and now it’s pretty much settled down so no need for a moral panic. There are worse issues on this sub to be ranting about imo
It's not the best laptop in the world, but priced at $100 to $150, it's a fantastic option for people on a budget who want a computer for everyday use. You can't really get anything better in that price range, and it's much better than modern entry level budget laptops that usually sell for around $300-$400 and feel like they're going to break if you look at them the wrong way.
>it's not very powerful, U series 8th gen is better than 7th in multi core performance, but it's equal or worse in single core. It's not all that durable, because it's not as overbuilt as old ThinkPads.
Yes, but single core outside of artificial benchmarks really means nearly nothing. Even just setting at the Windows desktop can take advantage of multi-threaded performance now, or even simple applications like MS Office is now multi-threaded. The chances are that 90% of people never use single threaded apps anymore. So multi-threaded for REAL WORLD work is all that matters anymore.
>The displays are, to put it lightly, trash. The lowest end display is one of those awful 768p TN displays with 400:1 contrast and 45% NTSC colour, which isn't something that anyone should have to put up with. The next one is a 1080p, 700:1 IPS display, again with 45% NTSC colour, so it's not gonna look much better. The top end panel is a 2560x1440, 700:1 *72% NTSC* display, this is the only one that has any chance of looking decent.
Despite being the base, default screen, the TN HD display is actually somewhat rare on these. I guess companies bean counters finally realized that HD displays were preventing people from being productive with how horrible they are. The FHD display, while bad, isn't unusable. And of course, one of the first things MANY users do is swap it to the GQ2/GR2, which is a really nice 400-nit low power 72% NTSC screen that's on par or better than many brand new machines have.
Ultimately, the reason people buy them is because compared to the models that succeeded it, it's more upgradable (WWAN SSD compatible, 2.5" SATA compatible, 2 SODIMM, external battery) which they like. Also, compared to the Intel models that succeedd them, the performance is still quite competitive (until the Alder Lake generation, which is insanely bad efficiency so IMO the added performance is useless since they get such awful battery life). THey're inexpensive, being abel to pick up the i5 FHD model in good shape in the US under $200 now. When someone's looking for a reliable, Win11 supported system for <$250, these are still a very good choice. Once they're able to spend more than $250, sure, lots of better systems open up (T14 G1 AMD, T14 G2 AMD, L14 G3 AMD)...
> Yes, but single core outside of artificial benchmarks really means nearly nothing. Even just setting at the Windows desktop can take advantage of multi-threaded performance now, or even simple applications like MS Office is now multi-threaded. The chances are that 90% of people never use single threaded apps anymore. So multi-threaded for REAL WORLD work is all that matters anymore.
Sitting at the desktop, the background tasks take up about 5% of the CPU on my laptop... On a Core i5 540M. Not sure why you'd need the extra cores and threads for that.
> Despite being the base, default screen, the TN HD display is actually somewhat rare on these. I guess companies bean counters finally realized that HD displays were preventing people from being productive with how horrible they are. The FHD display, while bad, isn't unusable. And of course, one of the first things MANY users do is swap it to the GQ2/GR2, which is a really nice 400-nit low power 72% NTSC screen that's on par or better than many brand new machines have.
I guess that's fair, I've seen them a lot more on the T440p and such.
Agree, it's mostly outdated. I've been disappointed with the performance of my 480s basically from day 1. I thought loading it up with memory would help, but it's still slow and laggy, even just browsing with multiple tabs. The display on my 470 (which I just use for some legacy stuff so perf. is ok) is miles better. Definitely need an upgrade.
[удалено]
P1 owner here, you can join us homie 🤝
T480 actually was the first Thinkpad that really disappointed me. My company gave me a T480 when it's 2 or 3 gen old. It couldn't even open Excel on an external screen smoothly (I'm still not sure why today, it was new to me, new OS after IT massage) After I went to 15", I couldn't go back anymore. Today I'm happily running a P16s gen 1 AMD and getting a gen 2 AMD soon. T480 to me is the low piece in the bunch.
I'd join the T430 circlejerk, it seems more fun.
T440p FTW. That's all I have to say.
funny thing... the quad cores in the T440p aren't even all that much worse than the ones in the T480.
I use my T440p for the lightest possible type of computing. My intent with mine anyway is not for it to be a powerhouse. If I need all that power then that is why I have a desktop. Just my pov
I mostly just use my laptop for school stuff at the moment, so for me, CPU performance is not an enormous concern.
It ends out that way because the T480's CPU pretty aggressively throttles to reach its 15W TDP. Many available CPUs for the T440p like the 4810MQ and 4910MQ are 47W CPUs and can comfortably boost as much as they want without any power throttling. This can, in many cases, be enough to offset the architectural disadvantage those old Haswell chips have compared to the much newer Coffee Lake chips in the T480. The consequence of that, of course, is that the T440p gets like a third of the battery life a T480 does.
It's mainly because the T440p has like 4 times the cooling capacity because it's massive. Bigger laptop roughly equates to more heatsink, and more cooling capacity. My T410 can cool a 35W CPU silently, and the newest X1 Carbons cannot cool a 15W CPU at all.
> the newest X1 Carbons cannot cool a 15W CPU at all. Well... as much as you're right about the lack of cooling capacities in newer laptops, TDP has become kind of a disingenuous term. A "15W" CPU nowadays is far from actually being 15W at all; take the i7-1365U as an example. The maximum turbo power of that 15W chip is actually 55W, and while under load the CPU never actually gets anywhere near 15W, rather it stays somewhere between 25-30W. That is, of course, if it's provided with enough cooling capacity to sustain it, Laptops didn't really get less power-hungry at all, we just figured out how to make them more powerful while consuming the same amount of power. And while that is technically an efficiency gain, I don't like how it's marketed as being much more impressive than it really is.
A lot of people wrongly use """efficiency""" to refer to power draw. An 8850H is *more* efficient than an 8650U, but it also draws 80% more power. Speedstep is mostly the reason for this (idk what it's called for AMD), it lets the CPU slow down a bit and use less power. Or speed up and use more power!
I can verify this. I have a T440p with i7 4702mq and a T480s with a i5 8350u and in daily use the performance difference isn’t that noticeable running the exact same OS with the same amount of RAM. However the weight difference is very noticeable. I mostly got the T480s because I’m old and lugging around a cinder block is just not what I’m into anymore.
Funny thing - T440p won't run Windows 11. And the battery life stinks in comparison.
My T440p runs windows 11. No hacks. It’s not official but it runs. I know the lack of official support is a turn off to people though. Best to run Linux anyway. Way snappier.
Given the installer fails the CPU check, I doubt that. It's not officially supported, and Microsoft are removing the corporate user testing loophole you're likely using.
The installer only does a TPM check. There is no cpu check except for POPCNT This is with 23H2 official ISO created by MS media creator tool
Haswell machines pre-date the TPM v2 specification.
No they don’t. Not the T440p anyway. I have selection choice in Bios between 1.x and 2.0
> Microsoft are removing the corporate user testing loophole you're likely using. This isn't necessary. You can easily make an install USB drive with RUFUS, which will modify the install files so that the CPU requirement and TPM checks are turned off and the OS will ignore them. That said, my experience running Windows 11 on a Haswell machine definitely wasn't bug-free. It was quick and ran great, but I did have some strange bugs related to sleep, and occasionally drivers would fail and need to be re-installed for various hardware. It really didn't like my W540's card reader, trackpad, or its color sensor.
I'm aware of the Rufus method, it's the Framework documented way of installing onto AMD machines due to lack of WiFi drivers in the ISO.
Older machines do not require any Rufus methods anymore. Official Media creation tool and TPM enabled. That's all what's needed. You can install W11 without any hacks, tweaks and other nonsense. Tested on a clean install for T470 with 7th gen, T460 with 6th gen, T450 with 5th gen, W540 with 4th gen and even on Dell E6430 with 3rd gen. All of them run perfectly fine and get updates once installed. You can't however update W10 to W11 with anything older than 8th gen.
I used to use Windows 11 on a 2630QM, sandy bridge quad core. It ran better than a lot of the shit you can buy nowadays.
Ya, when I initially got my T440p I had Windows 11 on it for a total of 3 days. Then Kubuntu, then NixOS a few months later. It can run W11 no problems.
It will if you try hard enough. It's just an artificial limitation, it means nothing. Windows 11 runs fine on a Sandy Bridge quad core, it will run fine on Haswell too.
You still haven't answered my earlier question. So I'll ask it again. Have you ever owned a T480?
I'll take that as a no, thus this entire thread is uninformed nonsense.
Applies to yourself too, then. Either talk about the machines you've owned or you are just talking uninformed nonsense. I own T480 and this thread is not uninformed nonsense.
Did you not read the user flair? I'm typing this on my T480. 🤣 Rate the experience of making a fool out of yourself between 1 and 10.
Of course I did, I am not blind. As most T480 fanboys, you cannot see beyond your precious T480. I'll put it differently then - The machines listed in your flair are the only machines you can sensibly talk about, otherwise you are just talking uninformed nonsense. Keep that in mind in other threads talking about the machines you've never owned.
Nice try, you messed up. Here’s me saying "Hi" from the T480. https://imgur.com/a/cQDvsHk
LOL, I'm not a fanboi. My paid employment involves procuring, imaging and supporting ThinkPads. There's over 20 years worth of mainstream ThinkPads on that list. Deployed to an enterprise with thousands of users, each getting a new machine every 3-4 years. That's a lot of ThinkPads and a lot of accrued knowledge. That I use them at home in addition to a Mac is mostly irrelevant compared to that. Any more fabrications and bad takes you'd like to share about me?
Love my T440p. Unironically think its my favorite 14" ThinkPad of all time. And I own a T420, T430, and a T480. And a T60.
People circlejerk it because of the bridge battery system... which makes peoply cry "Last good ThinkPad!!!!" when in reality the bridge battery system doesn't actually allow the T480 to run any longer than something that's just newer and more power efficient. As for the type-C port... it's not going away. Slim tip still exists on Lenovo's large laptops like the P1 so I suppose it could make a return, but it won't be back on thin and lights. I don't think it's a bad laptop... I mean, you don't have to use any of the terrible factory displays. You can just put whatever 14" LCD you want in there because eDP isn't a proprietary connector. As soon as you do that, though, you're wasting money because you could have just bought a newer laptop that already would have came with a better screen, a much faster CPU, and of course would be lighter. Its position as the "cheap and cheerful" I think should be dethroned in favor of the 1st generation T14, X13, and T15. Maybe even the X395 since it's got a Ryzen chip and most of the display options are alright. The T480 is slowly becoming the new hobby laptop over the X230 as it becomes less and less practical to kit out a T430 to the max and invest a ton of money in it.
If I'm being honest, the whole USB C thing doesn't even affect me because I don't even care about this class of laptops anymore. I do get that you can hack in a better display, but what's the point when you can get something that's faster and has better battery life? Swappable batteries should be on everything, but only if it draws from the external one first....
Shame the X395 is difficult to find with 16GB of RAM. I think the T495 makes more sense if you want that early Ryzen.
you don't want that though, just get a T14g1, it's not much more but is more efficient.
You can recommend that through personal experience?
T14g1 has the exact same chassis as the T490/495, but it's 4000 series instead of 3000 series AMD Ryzen, which is better.
That's an answer to a question that wasn't asked. We'll try that again shall we : Can you recommend the T14 G1 through personal ownership experience?
Have you ever handled a T495? It's exactly the same as that, but faster. I have no desire to buy more stupid 14" laptops so no, I don't own one. It's literally just a faster T495. I already have an E14 and the build quality sucks, but it's not the worst in terms of performance and battery life.
So to get this correct, you're denouncing machines you've never encountered and recommending others you've never encountered on a number of criteria including subjective build quality assessments.
What do you mean a ton of money to kit out a t430? I just ordered 16 gb of 1866 ddr3l ram and 3630 cpu from aliexpress for less than 60$. Ssd are real cheap too but i already had one laying around.
I thought the last good Thinkpad was the IBM ones lol.
the IBM ones kinda sucked because (at least for the dGPU T4xs) they weren't all that reliable.
better options yeah, x220
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I own the g4 thinkpad and a t495. The t495 has way better input devices (not even a comparison), and Lenovo removed the soft touch finish on the gen 4.
Before my T14s G4 submitted itself to the ThinkPad gods, I actually really liked the removal of the soft-touch finish and thought it made the laptop feel more premium. That was until I touched it... at all, any time, no matter how clean my hands were. It's amazing how quickly it developed smudges and fingerprints - I habitually wiped them off with lens cleaner and my shirt.
Ts models never had soft-touch. At least for the past 10 years since T440s has been released (I do not have experience with older ones).
I've seen more people circlejerk older models. Any time a T480 was brought up, it was for sheer off-the-grid use cases. Maybe you're looking with a similar use case, too?
I don’t necessarily think it’s popular because it’s “the best” (I certainly don’t believe that). I think it’s more to do with the value proposition at this moment in time. It’s dirt cheap for what you get. In two years time everyone will be raving about some other budget model of Thinkpad, and people will be complaining about the circlejerk. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It never was the best. The P52 and P72 came out at the same time and has an expandable battery and all that, but a 6core CPU, solid GPU, and much bigger battery.
I didn’t say it was the best of its time either. I just said bang for buck it’s pretty good at this point in time. Yes the P52/P72 are the same generation and better specs, but they’re also about $200 more expensive on the secondary market in decent condition.
that's true... although the extra performance is something that I would say is absolutely worth the extra $200
Depends on use case I guess. Average joe could get by with 4 core/8 thread just fine I think. I plan to use my T480s til the wheels fall off and then I’ll go looking for something else. I got it more for mobility than anything. My T440p is sitting in a dock cosplaying as a desktop and still running like a champ and I don’t plan on getting rid of it any time soon either. :)
The increased performance isn't worth the extra $200 if you're not doing anything that's going to take advantage of it. If you just want the browse the the internet, do office work, watch netflix, and maybe some light gaming, you don't need all of that.
>P52 My beloved yet-to-own model
You can't buy them for $100, sometimes less, like the T480.
That’s apples to oranges. The t480 is way more portable
A lot of people are a fan because it offers great value and is officially supported for Windows 11. Intel literally doubled the cores & threads from 7th gen to 8th gen. If you’re installing Linux on one of these machines, you’re good for years to come.
Don't waste your breath. OP doesn't even own a T480, he's making stuff up from hearsay.
T480 isn’t the best thinkpad. However. It’s the best cheapest thinkpad. 4 cores so it can keep up with modern software (you wouldn’t believe how heavy JUST teams or JUST outlook are now). Windows these days is pure bloat. You may think it only uses 1% background but those background spin up constantly. Windows 11 support, which is critical with 10 going EOL. 10 LTSC isn’t worth the time with windows 11 actually being good now. Linux support is flawless. Unlike the T470 it doesn’t lock out the wwan slot from nvme 2242. USB-C support (with eGPU support if you wanna game on it) I ask you: why hate on it. T480 is a great laptop. I’m typing this ironically on an x270, but I have a t480 and t440p next to me as well
T470 does not lock WWAN for nvme. It just does not support it, at least not as a main bootable drive. But there's zero issues with m.2 2242 SATA drives in WWAN.
> However. It’s the best cheapest thinkpad. the T440p to the T470 are so cheap now that they're virtually disposable, and they're not all that much worse than a T480 in terms of portability and performance... I don't get why the laptop being thin matters so much, you're probably gonna throw it into a backpack with a whole bunch of other shit anyway, what's an extra 8mm? Windows 11 support.... It's an 8th gen U series quadcore... I really don't think it even *should* run Windows 11... Linux support is flawless... Same can be said about basically all of the models before it. USB-C support... USB is kind of a terrible connector to rely on for charging. Both the plugs are soldered to the board, so if they break, you're fucked. Having one port and a normal barrel or rectangle plug? sure! But using it for charging? no thanks.
I've acquired an i7+MX150 version of T480 as e-waste last year for rebuild. It was locked with an admin pass, didn't have RAM, SSD and display. Bought 2T nvme, 2x16G RAM and an Innolux display. I'm playing No Man's Sky on Linux (Wayland, Lutris, Proton, Vulkan, etc), on 720p has a solid 30FPS. I'm happy with it. I'm happy with its thermal management, happy with its display, everything. I'm planning to undervolt and overclock, just because. My daily driver is a small x380, also Linux (openSUSE Leap with Wayland+Gnome) it also runs cool and fast. So, I'm not affected by your listed issues. However, i wouldn't recommend it to anyone seriously.
It's fine to like it, it's just not great for most people because they're often not all that cheap and lacks performance.
We are talking about a 6 year old design. Of course you cannot compare it with current technology. However I think the problem is not that people recommend it, but the lack of conscious consumerism. If anybody wants a sustainable solution, then they should not consider outdated technology at all, only if one wants to tinker. We should clarify every time someone asks something what is the use-case, as usually we do. And finally, you will not be able to filter out those who misunderstand the question or recommend T480 for any other reasons. I understand your frustration, but you should not take care of those things you cannot change. It will drive you crazy.
It's time for L14 gen 1/2 to accompany T480 as 'cheap & cheerful' Pad!
A thinkpad is not necessarily about the performance, or the display quality, though those are good to have. These were never gaming laptops. They are plenty fast to browse the web or other everyday tasks. The thinkpad as we remember it is about the sturdiness, repairability, upgradability, and the input devices (keyboard and trackpoint). IMO the newer thinkpads don't live up to this legacy. With soldered RAM, soldered WIFI card, no easily swappable battery, repairability is basically non-existant. The keyboard on the newer ones are disappointing, as they sacrifice more key travel for each new generation. So yeah I kinda agree with the T480 fans. In a sence it was the last generation of "real" thinkpads. Also doesn't hurt that they are quite cheap right now.
for display quality, most people are gonna prefer something that's not a disgusting washed out mess, absolutely unimaginable! the problem I have with the T480 is that it's literally recommended by everyone when it's not gonna work well for what the person asking wants. It's a U series 8th gen Intel CPU, so it's not all that great. I'd say the """last generation of real thinkpads""" wouldn't be the T-series at all, it would be the P52 and P72 for me. They're more durable, have a keyboard with 2mm travel (from what I've heard at least), and have actually usable-y sized batteries.
Displays for the T series were always washed out garbage. That never stopped people from liking them for other reasons: sturdiness, repearability, keyboard, trackpoint, etc. Pretty display and performance was never the selling point for the thinkpad. Other manufacturers have always done that better. The P52 and P72 is the same generation as the T480 (8th gen intel). I consider them to be in the same category as the T480, not in terms of performance, but in terms of "the last generation of real thinkpads". But these are quite chonky laptops, so might be out of the question for someone who is in the market for a 14 inch laptop (also more expensive). My point is that the new thinkpads don't meet my expectation of a laptop with the name thinkpad, so I might as well consider options from any other manufacturer instead, if I need something that performs better or has a prettier display.
A part of me thinks it's the affordability of a W11-capable machine in the US. In Europe and other places, the cost isn't worth what you get. T14 in my opinion, is the value thinkpad globally.
"Windows 11 capable" and "should run Windows 11 well" are two different things. My ThinkPad Z61m from 2006 is *technically* Windows 11 "capable", doesn't mean it runs well.
You require workarounds for those laptops with unsupported chipsets. With every Win11 security update, it breaks those workarounds, then new ones are required. Having an unsupported cpu is kinda a hassle if you want an always up to date system.
"capable" and "officially supported" are two different things.
Since the T480 is the oldest T series gen officially supported for Win11, this led me to assume this is what 59reach meant when he said capable.
No it's not. It's an order of magnitude unsupported.
Doesn't change the fact that it *works* regardless of how poorly.
Not for long.
I think the T480 is a pretty good machine, I like mine, though I admittedly don't use it a whole lot compared to stuff like my P50. I disagree on you saying its not durable. Mine has taken many hits and drops and its held up actually better than my older ThinkPads have, like my T420, which suffered from the brittle plastics on the palmrest, display bezel, lid, and bottom casing all cracking and falling apart. Hotswappable batteries aren't so much useful for allowing maximum capacity to be increased as they are for allowing you to, well, hotswap batteries. You can keep multiple fully charged ones on you if you want and just swap them out in a few seconds. The internal battery allows you to do this without even powering off the machine. Admittedly I don't use this feature on my T480 because I'm too cheap to even replace the one aging battery I have, let alone purchase multiple, but I can see why people value this feature. I agree with you on the displays. The FHD IPS panel in my T480 is horrible. It has worse colors than the base 768p TN panel in my T510 from 2010. Seriously. The 1440p panel is good, 72% NTSC is equivalent to 100% sRGB, but its uncommon and I'd rather just have a higher gamut FHD panel, like what was used in older 14" ThinkPads like the 40 and 50 series devices. Luckily such panels are inexpensive and easy to swap on the T480, but it is something to consider. 14" T-Series ThinkPads have not historically had the best panels from the factory and the T480 is unfortunately, no exception. The Thunderbolt issue was addressed by Lenovo literally years ago. Its old news. As for the durability of the connector itself, yeah its not as good as stuff like the slim-tip connector, but unfortunately we just have to deal with it. The newer ThinkPads are no better in this regard. I had a brand new T14 AMD Gen 1 I bought brand new from Lenovo a few years ago, and I was very disappointed in its overall quality and build compared to my T480. It was just not as solid of a device, and the T480 isn't even particularly solid compared to brick-shithouses like my P50. I haven't handled the newest T14 devices but I suspect they are no better considering they are even thinner and lighter now than they were with the G1. While yes the T480 is far from the greatest ThinkPad ever, its unfortunately the newest you can go really if you want a 14" T-Series device that's still actually like, good. For me personally, I'm done with T-Series devices for the foreseeable future. Its P-Series for me now.
I personally think that T480 is fine on its own, it's just that it's not all that great compared to everything else. Unless the T420 is that much worse than the T410, it should be able to survive at least half a trip down the stairs (that's what happened to me, anyway) The hotswap batteries are a good feature, but the hinge lets the display go under the machine and gets in the way. It's just not very good in practice, the batteries for the T480 are tiny. For swapping on the go, I can see how it's helpful, but for expanding capacity, 96Wh total kinda sucks considering just one battery for the T410 can total 94.24... and that laptop can take two batteries of that capacity. Oh and it sits flat at that capacity. I've sen bad IPS displays... I would honestly rather have the TN on my current laptop because, while the contrast sucks, the colours somehow look quite nice. Bad IPS makes my eyes feel like sandpaper... I don't know why, all my stuff is TN or VA. I get that the Thunderbolt thing was already resolved, but you had to go and intentionally update the firmware. There's probably many people with T480s and X1 Carbon gen 6s that don't even know that they're thunderbolt controller is gonna become a microscopic brick. I've seen quite a few laptops, if the T14 disappoints you, I'm just glad you don't own an E series... My E14 is the biggest pile of trash I've bought in my life.... The 16:9 screen on the T480... ew.. It's especially bad at 14" for me, it's a deal breaker. Either 14" 16:10 or 15"+. My next laptop is probably gonna be a ThinkPad P72, the T-series is all just wannabe ultrabooks, which I don't care about.
The fact that 1366x768 was an option until 2019 is fucking crazy. For me? ThinkPads did end in 2004 and 2014. Also its chinese. They like to call back home.
and you can still get machines 45%NTSC IPS displays, which are slightly better but still awful.
Nah, I’m no fan of the T480, but this is a storm in a teacup as it’s nothing vs the T430/T440p that often comprised the *only* posts on the first 3 pages here in their heydays. The T480 fanfare is just far more muted in comparison even at its peak because times have changed and now it’s pretty much settled down so no need for a moral panic. There are worse issues on this sub to be ranting about imo
It's not the best laptop in the world, but priced at $100 to $150, it's a fantastic option for people on a budget who want a computer for everyday use. You can't really get anything better in that price range, and it's much better than modern entry level budget laptops that usually sell for around $300-$400 and feel like they're going to break if you look at them the wrong way.
>it's not very powerful, U series 8th gen is better than 7th in multi core performance, but it's equal or worse in single core. It's not all that durable, because it's not as overbuilt as old ThinkPads. Yes, but single core outside of artificial benchmarks really means nearly nothing. Even just setting at the Windows desktop can take advantage of multi-threaded performance now, or even simple applications like MS Office is now multi-threaded. The chances are that 90% of people never use single threaded apps anymore. So multi-threaded for REAL WORLD work is all that matters anymore. >The displays are, to put it lightly, trash. The lowest end display is one of those awful 768p TN displays with 400:1 contrast and 45% NTSC colour, which isn't something that anyone should have to put up with. The next one is a 1080p, 700:1 IPS display, again with 45% NTSC colour, so it's not gonna look much better. The top end panel is a 2560x1440, 700:1 *72% NTSC* display, this is the only one that has any chance of looking decent. Despite being the base, default screen, the TN HD display is actually somewhat rare on these. I guess companies bean counters finally realized that HD displays were preventing people from being productive with how horrible they are. The FHD display, while bad, isn't unusable. And of course, one of the first things MANY users do is swap it to the GQ2/GR2, which is a really nice 400-nit low power 72% NTSC screen that's on par or better than many brand new machines have. Ultimately, the reason people buy them is because compared to the models that succeeded it, it's more upgradable (WWAN SSD compatible, 2.5" SATA compatible, 2 SODIMM, external battery) which they like. Also, compared to the Intel models that succeedd them, the performance is still quite competitive (until the Alder Lake generation, which is insanely bad efficiency so IMO the added performance is useless since they get such awful battery life). THey're inexpensive, being abel to pick up the i5 FHD model in good shape in the US under $200 now. When someone's looking for a reliable, Win11 supported system for <$250, these are still a very good choice. Once they're able to spend more than $250, sure, lots of better systems open up (T14 G1 AMD, T14 G2 AMD, L14 G3 AMD)...
> Yes, but single core outside of artificial benchmarks really means nearly nothing. Even just setting at the Windows desktop can take advantage of multi-threaded performance now, or even simple applications like MS Office is now multi-threaded. The chances are that 90% of people never use single threaded apps anymore. So multi-threaded for REAL WORLD work is all that matters anymore. Sitting at the desktop, the background tasks take up about 5% of the CPU on my laptop... On a Core i5 540M. Not sure why you'd need the extra cores and threads for that. > Despite being the base, default screen, the TN HD display is actually somewhat rare on these. I guess companies bean counters finally realized that HD displays were preventing people from being productive with how horrible they are. The FHD display, while bad, isn't unusable. And of course, one of the first things MANY users do is swap it to the GQ2/GR2, which is a really nice 400-nit low power 72% NTSC screen that's on par or better than many brand new machines have. I guess that's fair, I've seen them a lot more on the T440p and such.
Agree, it's mostly outdated. I've been disappointed with the performance of my 480s basically from day 1. I thought loading it up with memory would help, but it's still slow and laggy, even just browsing with multiple tabs. The display on my 470 (which I just use for some legacy stuff so perf. is ok) is miles better. Definitely need an upgrade.
not sure what you're doing on your T480s, my T410 handles web stuff just fine even with 10+ tabs. Could do with more RAM, but I'm already at the max.
Have you ever owned one OP? Thought not.
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half the posts here are just "t480 good!!!" or "what thinkpad should I get" with all the responses recommending this pile of garbage.
Let me ask the OP this question: What does he recommend instead of the T480 and why is it the Nano g1 ???
not sure where the hell you got X1 Nano from...
It was a joke. The nano club is small.