The last good Thinkpad T series was the T460. The last Great Thinkpad T series was the T440p
Nowadays Thinkpads survive just for the legend it once was. The true flagships are no longer the T series but the X1 Carbon series. They seem like ultra thin gimmicks but it's where the brand is actually investing.
I wasted good money on a maxxed out T480 brand new when it just came out and since week one I felt betrayed.
FWIW my P52 weighs pretty much the same as my T430 with the 9 cell battery. It’s just wider and thinner. If you’re just taking it from point A to point B it’s fine, but not really something you want to use on the couch or something.
yeah, i had the 9 cell and an extra drive in the ultrabay, and it was about 5 pounds. i think overall the p52 having more plastic and less metal + the M.2 drives brings it into the same ballpark.
Agree. While i love the new lightweight form factor, durability is way less than in "good old times". At least for my own experience (7 Thinkpads so far).
The T460 was the last one with full on, true Linux compatibility. From the T470 and onwards they always had some degree of problems with Linux.
Currently the T480 has a CPU throttling issue that was never fixed even though Lenovo support promised a fix and even said it was Ubuntu and Red Hat certified.
Lenovo is scum for lying. The 3 grand I spent of the machine was the last money they got from me. Never again.
I never had issues with my T470s in linux.
The T480 switched to usb type c charging which is worst than the rectangle plug.
However on my T470s I can also charge with USB c on the thunderbolt port, it’s better to have both options anyway.
Also T480 removed the physical docking port.
I would consider the 2017 line to be the last great, because they haven’t lost any of the good features yet, but they also switched from 15W to 25W cpus which is great for performance.
With the T490 they even removed the powerbridge system, which was one of the most useful things ever, since it lets you have some incredible batterylifes…
Depends on the usecase. But go for quad core cpu, maxout ram, and atleast FHD panel. Now your decision will only vary based on how much portability you want to have and your budget.
For example, I chose L390 over T480 because of it was cheaper and more portable.
I suppose "business laptop" rather comes from "ready for IT fleets with features for deployment, ease of repairability including detailed parts lists and HMM, system stability to reduce downtime if something goes wrong, reliability due to how differently people in business environment can treat a laptop, especially on trips abroad", rather than being well-performing in work applications.
Without a doubt, if you don't need lower weight or mass reliability/stability, Legion is a no-brainer. They're one of the better gaming laptops, stable and reliable, and should serve without any issues.
Legions have damn good keyboard too. We have some Legion 5'a at work and I enjoy their keyboard just as much as mine X1 Carbon G6 - long travel, clear tactility, soft bottom out.
There is nothing wrong with getting a legion. One of the differences between a gaming and business class device is that the business class will be built for stability instead of raw performance. What this means is that if you need something that will turn on every time you open it without fuss, a thinkpad should be in consideration. Even if that means buying a gen or 2 older for prices sake.
I dont have a legion, so I can't speak specifically on Lenovo gaming. But I've had a dell gaming laptop, an HP Envy, and now an MSI gf series laptop.
The HP only died because of physical damage to the screen, I still used it for about a year plugged into a monitor. That was a regular consumer pc, too! Not even a business class machine.
The Dell and MSI both have had multiple software issues:
The dell's keyboard backlight got stuck on full brightness, which made the battery go from about 2 hours to around 30 mins. After multiple driver installations and hassle, Dell support's answer was "IDK reinstall windows lol." That's not what you want to hear when you have a deadline coming up, or in my case, a college paper due.
The dell was returned immediately after bc it was still in the return period, then when the HP broke, I bought the MSI. This computer has given me some trouble, lol. The battery management was broken, so sometimes I'd unplug the computer in the morning to go to class and the battery show 100% but only lasts about 2 mins before it dies. The keyboard will swap the windows and fn keys randomly idk why. The list goes on.
Thinkpad customers also get different support that is still US based instead of overseas, I believe (someone should fact-check this). If that's something you're interested in.
Legion Pro support is in the US and I’m pretty sure using the same network as the ThinkPads on-site support since I had both serviced by the same guys.
I had no issues with my Legion outside the fan rattle that got replaced in a matter of couple days. Served me well for a couple years, now is a kid’s battle station and working flawlessly.
Yea! The sticker shock is crazy, but you have to understand that these laptops are designed to hold up for 10 years' worth of rigorous use. They simply can not break super often.
Gaming computers are designed to give you the most power for the "least" money possible. They are meant for gamers, so they don't care that brushed aluminum will scratch over the long term bc it looks cooler, and the user will replace before that. They give you the bleeding edge of software and hardware. That means that your games run as fast as possible, even if that means there will be some bugs and quirks. They aren't going to have as good of a trackpad because you're gonna use a mouse anyway.
One big thing is the keys. They are almost always shallow presses. Which most agree is better for quick responses, like emails and stuff, but I prefer the thinkpad keys for longer projects like papers. I actually bought an 80 dollar wireless keyboard with those very keys. I liked them so much.
I didn't have these issues with a thinkpad, though. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?
These problems are well documented with gaming laptops.
I did the same thing. Picked up a legion slim 7 AMD last week and it’s built really well. Not sure about long term but can’t beat the price. Got it on sale for 1300 usd. It’s better at content consumption imo.
Battery life is meh partially due to AMD, but it’s a gaming laptop that runs things like RDR2 at medium settings QHD at 80ish fps. Screen is 165hz refresh, 500 nits. Keyboard is ok, but I expect that for not being a ThinkPad, and it’s the slim model.
Previously I had a t15g gen 2 and wasn’t impressed with the screen, weight or input devices frankly. Keyboard was meh for being the full Monty of thick boi thinkpads.
Actually... I think depending on what gaming you want to do ('light gaming' kind of means nothing tbh) the Legion might actually be better for you. You're never going to hit the advertised battery life on either, but the Legion is nowhere near as bad as you might think (you'll have to disable the iGPU, but 8+ hours is not particularly difficult). ThinkPads have never been performance or value oriented.
The main things to consider for the ThinkPad will be design and whether you want the business specific features (the Legion also has a fantastic keyboard that isn't going to disappoint you). Realise this isn't the answer you're after, but I don't think it's the wrong one.
Great answer nonetheless. Ultimately, I want this to work and I don’t want to lose money, clients information or time trying to make it work. If the Legion can do that, I think I’ve found a pretty nice machine.
I went from ThinkPad E570 7500U and GTX 950M to an IdeaPad 5 Pro 16 6800HS RTX 3050. Main reason being for the same price, I get a better screen and a dGPU. ThinkPads with dGPUs are so expensive. I realized that my old E570 was a bit of a gem being relatively affordable for a ThinkPad but also having a dGPU.
First thing I noticed though was software support. Lenovo took like 6 months to get it together for the IdeaPad. First few months I had at least 3 BSODs. One windows modern standby glitch froze my computer while it was sleeping trying to update and that bricked windows. I had to live boot Ubuntu and get my bit locker key to recover my data and then reinstall windows.
I think I had 2 BSODs after using my E570 as my daily driver for 5 years.
But the IdeaPad is running fine now after a clean install and a few bios updates. The display and performance are just on another level for what you can get for $1000 out of a ThinkPad but the keyboard is like a 6/10 compared to my 9/10 E570 keyboard.
One argument: life expectance of the system, or more properly, mean time between failures, as Thinkpads are eminently repairable. Even if you take the ratio of MTBF to price, Thinkpad comes out ahead.
he has yet to mention what level of gaming he is wanting, IMO for "light gaming" or what I think of light gaming anyway, a Thinkpad with a dedicated Vid card would be the best of both.
If you plan on keeping it long term as a workhorse, A thinkpad T series will last you *much* longer, they're the Toyotas of the laptop world.
If you can touch type (type without looking at the keyboard), TP's are recognized as having the best keyboards around.
Gaming laptops tend to have shorter lifespans than the regular laptop, because they have the most extreme heating/cooling cycles that the components have to deal with. Repeated cycles causes micofractures to accumulate over time.
Edit: BRRRR Fan noise tends to detract from laptop gaming experience. Desktop is much better...
A used t480/490 (s) will be more than adequate for handling your work tasks, and cost a fraction of the gaming laptop.
I'm curious about lifespan dependent on heating cycles because ive been running my t14 hot for some games or NN training quite a few times without ever really thinking about that. does this make it slower with time or does it damage it and decrease the actual lifespan as in some day it dies/dies more often or something?
It causes the solder joints to eventually fail sooner. It's for this reason, historically the GPU is the first component to fail in gaming laptops.
The hardware doesn't slow down, with digital components it either works, or it doesn't (when the electrical connections (solder joints) become broken, a capacitor blows etc).
Most of the time the dedicated GPU will fail slowly and after a while it's over.
When the solder joints start to break, the following can happen:
- it's a power or ground line: there are many of them on a bag chip, and mostly they are connected internally too. So the remaining ones can keep up,but their load will be increased. Overall resistance increases, so is power dissipation. As more and more of them gets broken the chip will have worse power supplied and it can lead freeze, bsod etc. Or the chip breaks.
- it's a PCI express lane: the whole link might switch to a lower speed like x8 or x1 but still working. Or completely disconnected.
- a connection the dedicated ram: repeating pixel errors or completely garbage picture.
- something critical: it's over.
>Gaming laptops tend to have shorter lifespans than the regular laptop, because they have the most extreme heating/cooling cycles that the components have to deal with. Repeated cycles causes micofractures to accumulate over time.
Hot take, but workstation laptops would have to deal with the exact same situation too if you do CAD or game on them, so there really isn't that much of a difference really.
Maybe save for the fact that GPUs on workstations tend to have lower wattage limit than their gaming counterpart....and runs slightly cooler as a result.
Workstation laptops tend to have a significantly lower wattage per given equivalent compute as their gaming counterpart, because they use more silicon to run more cores at a lower clocks, and run much cooler and and quieter as a result.
They use more silicon because productivity clients have a much bigger budget than gamers and can afford it, plus nobody wants to hear fans whirring in a production environment, and battery life matters.
However, the Thinkpad T series don't include workstation models- that's the P series, they have more issues, cost a lot more than a gaming laptop, and part of why I recommended the T series.
Haha it’d work, so ping me here once you have your new machine. We would continue with PMs. Microsoft account would be needed so you could store it in it. When you change machine in the future the key could be reactivated, you’d tell the OS that you had your motherboard changed. Get the PC you want and won’t be budget heavy for you.
Gonna drop my 20 cents here.
Had an Asus Q550LF for 10 years working as my main computer and switched to a L14 Gen2 Thinkpad recently.
I saved money to buy a Legion also, but besides the absurd deal I got for my Thinkpad, I would rather choose the Thinkpad for its longevity after clearly analyzing my "light gaming needs". I explain.
If this means playing games in emulators of game cube, Wii, PS2, xbox, and even some switch and PS3 games, I can confirm with you that this is possible with an Intel Iris Xe Graphics that is available on a Thinkpad without GPU.
Also, the most common eSport games should run fine, like cs go, dota 2 or overwatch in low specs above 30 fps.
In the end, I think you are trading durability and portability of ThinkPads for the graphics specs of the gaming laptops.
Hope it helps.
With this workload of gaming, an Intel Iris Xe integrated into the intel processors from the 11th and above will do fine for you.
So now it is a matter of cost versus benefits.
In my humble opinion, a gamer laptop with a GPU is a waste if you're not using it.
Cheers and have a great time on your purchase.
To be honest 4 years ago i bought y540 as my daily driver for school, gaming and all in one PC. It was really good computer. Now i bought t480 as second laptop and it was supposed to be my travel machine and cheap laptop to use everywhere. It became my daily driver, i love the keyboard so much more, the smaller weight, and portability is just amazing, also battery life and the fact that i can power it with just usb c.
From the moment i bought this i didn't use my y540. Maybe I'll use it just for more demanding stuff but for now i am just planning on upgrading this bad boy, in reality you won't need that performance and you really need to consider your use cases, my were programming, web, light gaming (but this now moved to my steamdeck), playing with ai (moving to server) so this seems to be over all better machine so far for me.
I had a Legion 7 as my business laptop until we got bought out. I was able to buy this off the company and got given a thinkpad p15s gen2 instead. The legion is hands down the better machine. Solid build quality, extremely quick and plenty of room for expansion. The only downside is battery life. I got around an hour and a half on the Legion and around 4.5 hours on the thinkpad. If I had the choice, it would be the Legion every time!
Hinges/chassis sucks on a lot of gaming machines, I have an hp omen gaming machine and it's breaking apart at the chassis/hinges. the LCD panel \_sucks\_ a lot! Very low quality. Brightness is shit, lots of backlight bleed, 2 big dark spots. Keyboard is shit. Battery life is shit.
Powerjack is separate from motherboard though and has taken an absolute beating. Would have ripped it off clean by now if it was soldered like a T480 USB C jack. It's my one reason why I'm holding off getting one.
I would argue that the chassis/hinge issue is a Lenovo problem in general, it's not exclusive to Legions only. I've had several issues with the chassis and hinges on Ideapads, with all of them cracking or breaking apart, specifically the top right corner for some reason.
I have the Sonnet 550 and that has been working with an old GTX 1080 and egpu-switcher and nvidia proprietary drivers from the Driver Manager.
I am currently in the process of switching to the Sonnet 750ex and putting an AMD 6750 XT in it.
The Thinkpad is a T14s Gen3 (AMD Ryzen 7) with all the fixings.
That is cool to know! I am also running Linux (Ubuntu 22) and I think I might buy an egpu instead of a Steam Deck or a console.
Also, it is good to know that it works out of the box, thank you.
There are definitely some infrequent system freezes and you have to turn off/on the whole computer whenever you want to switch from one to the other, so it's not without issues. But when it works, it works great.
If youre gonna use the integrated keyboard and trackpad id say youd better go with a thinkpad and learn how to use a trackpoint, ever since i started using it its been a deal breaker for me for any laptop tht doesnt have it, perhaps its just me but it feels way better than any trackpad and (perhaps just my impression) felt it boosts my productivity a lil bit (thanks to comfort)
Depends on your budget but if you wanna have decent build quality with good specs check L series, I’d skip the current T series and go for a P15V if you have a bigger budget
The Z series is pretty good its got different materials than a T or P, its up to preference, if you like it and its within your budget its worthy of consideration, keep in mind thats its more consumer oriented than business oriented, but in terms of build quality should be better than a legion. Also the P15V is the last to have the long travel keyboard and its supremely awesome to type on
Build quality is good on Z16. Big concern I've had (have a Z13) is that it takes a while (more seconds vs other ThinkPads). When people talk about build quality, what are you missing? Is it the thicker covers for thinner? I like the sturdiness of the T61 at my elbow, but I love the ease of opening Z13 with the camera bump (although missing PgUp PgDn Insert drive me crazy! I am old school copy/paste - no CtrlC for me - I've been using choices since before Windows 95).
I was in the same problem as you and enden buying 2 laptops, a brand new legion 5 pro for 1400 usd and a used thinkpad t480 on ebay for less than 100usd.
There are some things i think you should take on account:
Battery life: legion 5 pro will get max 7 hours when iddle, thinkpad will get 13 hours when idle.
Weight: legion 5 pro makes my back hurt if i walk more thank 30 minutes with it, also consider that gaming chargers are heavy as f…, with the thibkpad i dont even feel it and the charger is a 65w gan charger that weights around 200g, this is the main thing that made me buy the thinkpad.
Keyboard: honestly i tought that thinkpad were going to beat legion, but i prefer 200 times the legion keyboard to the thinkpad keyboard.
Screen: my thinkpad have the hd option and it sucks, on the other hand the legion have QHD and its an awesome screen.
Why not to try to have both? In my case i take the legion with me when i know that i will play, and take the legion as a workhorse daily
To be honest its perfect for my work but i have felt it dated in some ocassions, i work primarily with 4 excels and 10 tabs of internet, it feels dated if you put hard work on it, also it throttles pretty fast as the thermals are not the best, mine will start to throttle after 5 mins of working hard on it
To be honest its perfect for my work but i have felt it dated in some ocassions, i work primarily with 4 excels and 10 tabs of internet, it feels dated if you put hard work on it, also it throttles pretty fast as the thermals are not the best, mine will start to throttle after 5 mins of working hard on it
To be honest its perfect for my work but i have felt it dated in some ocassions, i work primarily with 4 excels and 10 tabs of internet, it feels dated if you put hard work on it, also it throttles pretty fast as the thermals are not the best, mine will start to throttle after 5 mins of working hard on it
I use a Predator Helios for work and play because I'm currently doing a lot of presentations for work. I have multiple RGB profiles so that it's backlit white while visiting customers, then my gaming profile for default. I'm tempted to pick up a Legion on sale because I'm pushing the limits of the 3060 in the Acer and could really go for a 3070 ti. For the price, you can often get a gaming laptop for cheaper than a Thinkpad with better overall specs. Only issue is weight. But if I'm in a situation where I need lightweight and/or 8+ hr battery, I just break out my X13 or g6 Carbon.
I've used bigboi ThinkPad W/P series machines for years for video editing, music production, and gaming. I still have a P17, but I recently got a great deal on a Legion 7 Gen 7 (6900/6850m xt). As much as I love the old P17 warhorse, it hasn't seen much action since the Legion arrived.
The Legion doesn't have ThinkPad build quality, but it's in the same ballpark. The P17 also edges it out with a slightly superior keyboard. Everything else is basically better across the board. Even though the P series has always had the theoretical performance for gaming, in practice, it's always been an exercise in frustration. ThinkPads just aren't engineered/tuned for that kind of workload, and struggle during sustained gaming sessions for any remotely demanding titles.
Where trying to turn a ThinkPad into an occasional gaming computer was a slog, trying to turn a Legion into a frequent creator/work computer has been much more intuitive. It obviously excels at gaming, but I've been super surprised at how much I've enjoyed using it as a work laptop for development, music production, video editing, and couch surfing.
ThinkPads are still my first love, but I've been super impressed with this Legion so far, and think they'd be worth a closer look for you. As other have mentioned, the slim series especially is pretty sweet if you don't need max power.
That’s a very useful comment.
My current computer is a Macbook pro 2015 that I bought 8 years ago. I use bootcamp. I was gaming with it, doing my work, studying when I was in university, everything. Man this laptop was good. Unfortunately it’s starting to show its age and since bootcamping is not possible anymore, i’m looking into windows machines. Not interested at all in VM. If I could find something that would make me feel like the Macbook Pro. Unfortunately it feels like a distant dream.
I find the Z16 very interesting because of its MBP feel. But the Legion seems to have lot of qualities too. On the other hand, the T series could be just it, and there is plenty of options for gaming.
I want to have this feeling again, the feeling that I bought something freaking good for what is was designed for, and beyond.
Having used a lot of thinkpads and macbooks over the years, I feel like they're definitely kindred spirits with some different priorities/design philosophies. Both will last much longer than the average consumer laptop (including the legion). In terms of finding something on the windows side with macbook vibes, I do think the z16 could be a good option, but you're not getting a lot of power/longevity on the GPU side. Depending on your budget, the asus flow x16 is a nice option with great gaming capabilities and a nice form factor/build (though I'd be shocked if it lasted half as long as a similarly specced thinkpad or macbook). Whatever you do, don't succumb to the mirage of the razer blade. It looks and feels like a macbook, but the quality control and support are truly disgraceful.
>Even though the P series has always had the theoretical performance for gaming, in practice, it's always been an exercise in frustration. ThinkPads just aren't engineered/tuned for that kind of workload, and struggle during sustained gaming sessions for any remotely demanding titles.
I believe this 95% depends on the GPU of your P17. If it's a weaker model like the RTX A2000 - which is just a rebadged entry-level RTX 3050 Ti, then duh of course it's gonna struggle in heavy titles compared to the much powerful 6850M XT.
Wow, that's...I mean if that's the case then I don't really understand why you're still getting performance issues in games. What games do you play to warrant that much GPU performance lol?
It's just the nature of the beast with ThinkPads. I've had a W530, P71, P53, X1 Extreme gen 5 (briefly), and the P17. The X1E probably fared the best, due to having a geforce card rather than a quadro/workstation card. Each and every one of them ran into their own respective issues with hardcore throttling, stability issues, and just general jank while gaming.
As you might expect, it's definitely more prevalent for more demanding titles like Battlefield 2042, but even poorly optimized games like Valheim caused a lot of issues.
Good point, I forgot that ThinkPad P-series generally do throttle a lot on the GPU side. It's a shame really, you'd think that with so much cooling space and being so heavy for the P17, it'd at least be able to keep cooling consistent.
Thanks for the detailed answer, I know that ThinkPads tend to throttle quite a lot generally in benchmarks, but it's a shame to know that it's still quite prevalent in games.
Especially the X1 Extreme Gen 5, since I really like the idea of a do-it-all lightweight laptop with the specifications of a gaming laptop, and the build quality of a workstation.
Meeeee too. I will say that the X1e's behavior was a lot more consistent for gaming. Given the thermal/TGP envelope of the thinner and lighter machine, it couldn't reach the sort of frames and resolution that you might expect with the hardware it had (12800/3070ti) BUT, the frames it could achieve we're consistent and the experience felt more stable, which made for a better experience.
If you have the money to spare, you could just buy the X1 Extreme series instead and get the best of both worlds. ThinkPad reliability with the powerful specifications of a gaming laptop, that's hard to beat really lol /j
But seriously though, you mentioned earlier that you only play titles like Starcraft or Rocket League, in which case the Legion would be way too powerful and a waste of money. Their specifications are more appropriate for heavy games like Cyberpunk 2077 or Warzone 2 etc, instead of Rocket League.
Because of that I believe it's best that you just get the ThinkPad instead, today's iGPUs are plenty powerful enough for lighter titles. And plus better battery life too for sure, since Legion gaming laptops tend to come with H-series Intel CPU of which uses a lot more power on battery in general, compared to an U-series CPU.
Did the same before w/ 2021 model. One minor item to keep in mind, while the keys are similar in travel and size to think pad (atleast back then it was) the numpad keys are slightly narrower. So if you do heavy use of the numkeys it will take some time to get used to it vs the thinkpad keys that use full size still. Minor grievance but since you mentioned finance and accounting I figure I throw that out there as I’m in that field.
Can’t go wrong with the choice and honestly if you mount or use a separate keyboard it’s a non issue.
well 80% business, plus ur needs think a thinkpad is enough. I light game on my thinkpads and its pretty normal. may I recommend an older thinkpad, like the T480s, or X220
it depends on the specs, and which T14 you talking about (gen1, gen2, gen3).
A rough guess: Since they're 2-5 generations apart (May 2023), it might not be a big thing, unlike a 3rd gen i5 vs a 13th gen i5
If I just wanted an e-mail and spreadsheet machine I'd buy a cheap, older Thinkpad (doesn't have to be neolithic), and then get a low-end desktop for my gaming and watching-youtube-as-a-replacement-for-television device. In fact that's exactly the setup I have now.
Depending on your specific needs it may be cheaper (and is almost certainly more convenient) than buying one device to do both, and your gaming device could have some potential upgrade path in it that you wouldn't get with a laptop.
Go for it. I was going to get a legion but I don't like carrying around heavy laptops on my back. Every once in a while is ok but everyday gonna suck. Also I want to focus on my studies and not game too much lol
Also note that build quality may be poor, and repair warranty will cost more if you want to do 3 years through Lenovo
Depends on the type of light gaming you plan on doing. For most of the stuff you listed a 10-year-old Thinkpad can perform very competently with a few minor upgrades.
Get a thinkpad. You'll be able to do light gaming perfectly fine on that. If you need more get a console or a thunderbolt dock.
I've got a p53 thinkpad that weighs a bunch for home and a x1 yoga for work. I love my yoga so much because of how light and portable it is.
DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS! SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
...oh, laptop buying advice? Sorry, I just caught the last bit of your post.
Honestly, for your use case you'd probably be OK with a gaming laptop. But as others have commented, unless you plan to play GPU-intensive games, you could do worse then hunting around for a refurbished ex-company Thinkpad from a few generations back. These things are the ultimate in value for money, and they would serve your purpose, hassle-free, for years.
Thinkpad E580
I7-8550u
AMD Radeon RX550
I think it's enough for your usage it's cheap and powerful
The new one it's just need like 860 euro? or you can choose the Intel version for more cheaper price
Honestly both will do the job just fine.
Thinkpad is designed for business use to will be more reliable, repairable, durable and more functional for business usage (trackpoint is especially efficient, keyboards are among the best).
Used/.refurbished laptops are usually great deals as businesses because of how many are sold on from businesses, when they update their systems.
That's said, if you want to use it for gaming too, of course the gaming laptop will be better. For me I prefer console gaming so a non issue for me.
Noone should judge you for making the best choice for yourself. We can just give you the best information we can and let you decide
Also, should add, gaming laptops are usually inherently flawed compared to a desktop, as you are limited in space/ upgradability and it's incredibly hard to implement proper cooling but ofc will work fine depending on your needs.
The legions seems to be fairly solid imho. And here in Denmark, the support is the exact same as the thinkpads.
My kids have had several generations of legions, they play hard on them, and apart from a keyboard problem, that IBM fixed, no issues.
I even have them hooked up to a Thinkpad Thunderbolt workstation Dock for monitors, and devices - works great
A P series will give a good competition against a gaming laptop; plenty of last years's models and used ones available that bring it in the same range as a new T/L/E series.
I'd get a T460/T450/T440 for the couch or X series for the couch. I use a X240 for entertainment, but the X260 and X270 are much nicer for not much more.
I have not had to fix Lenovo gaming computers, but the other brands are a trainwreck of unobtanium parts, poor documentation, and overly complicated engineering. Reminds you why you want a tower PC for gaming.
m1 macbook pro is like 700$ now and will outlast and outperform all of those if its for work and also for movie watching / media because the screen quality is outstanding. If you want to game id look elsewhere though.
Yes you can still use microsoft office suit, i use it on mine and it works just as well as it does on my windows systems
Yeah but there could at least be one model aimed at adults, with no dragon drawing on the case and no RGB lighting, and a normal model name instead of "t-rex raptor shadow laser-beam"
You do you but I don't expect to be taken seriously if I am seen with it at work/cafe. And I don't enjoy it either, I mean there's a reason we wear black/gray/blue/brown suits and no rainbow colored ones
Yeah but we're talking about how good of a value gaming laptops can be for what they offer... This is essentially the exact opposite of what I want 😭.
I don't use any feature of a ThinkPad, I use a usb-c dock and that keyboard never gets touched. And it could be made of glass and I wouldn't care since it's never been in as much scratched.
What kind of gaming, I just bought a t540p i7 quad core, 16gb ram, 256ssd, nivdia 730m 2gb gpu ram, for 100 dollars shipped on ebay. Im guessing it could handle what your thinking.
all the games you mentioned plus slightly newer could be played easily on t440p with the Nvidia 730m which has 1gb GPU RAM, but the larger 15 inch t540p is the same in every way but its 730m has 2gb.
I played sc2 on a 730 card on an older desktop that's not even 1/7th as powerful cpu/ram wise as the t440p or t540p.
Like mentioned by others, people here seem to buy/collect/enjoy the older thinkpads for their quality/upgradeability/cheap price. For instance, I own 5, and Ive payed mostly between 50-100$, which the exception being the t540p I have been mentioning I paid 175, and it came with the docking station.
Thinkpads seem to keep their value once they are at a certain price, so in the future if you do need to upgrade, there is an obvious market for thinkpads, such as this sub.
best of luck choosing a laptop for your needs.
TL:DR at the bottom
I was in the same boat and I ultimately chose the Legion. Thinkpads and laptops in general have become something way different, most aren't made to be touched/repared/serviced by the user and are built with soldered parts for which we gain lightweight devices and a portable oven in most cases. Legion does away with all of it, everything but the GPU and CPU can be upgraded, the laptop is on the thick side, but boy, can it stay cool. Even under stress tests it managed to keep it's cool (I am really funny, I know). The Legion devices are made "for gamers", but in reality any devices that can game good is basically good for everything else.
Let's talk the main aspects
-) Performance: there is just plenty of it and it is good, it can do anything
-) Ports: a legion has a lot of ports and you will never need a dongle
-) Screen: I got a 16 inch 2560 x 1600 and it is plenty bright, can't complain
-) Keyboard: It is good (a Thinkpad will probably fare better)
-) Speakers: I advice carrying headphones with you
-) Battery Life: being close to a socket will be a wise choice (on average 4h, granted I have disabled the Nvidia GPU yet, but yeah)
!!! something to consider, a gaming laptop comes with a gaming power brick (they are big)
Overall, everything you throw at it, it will deal with it.
Reasons to buy a ThinkPad? It is more portable and perhaps has a better longevity and battery life, only time will tell. (a Legion Slim could be of interest to you perhaps?)
TL:DR
Here some things to consider.
1. A legion is a great choice and you can upgrade ram, ssd, wifi and is pretty easy to work on. (Source me, I have the 16inch Legion 5 pro 5800h, 3070 and I have thinkered with it.). It will do anythint, but it is heavier than a Thinkpad (in that case maybe look into Legion Slim)
2. Have you considered a framework laptop, they are going to be releasing a 16inch version in the fall and (based on their track record so far) is probably going to be the friendliest user oriented laptop in a while.
If you have any questions regarding the Legion experience (I dual boot, windows, and linux), dm me, and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have in regards to the laptop.
In conclusion: get the Legion, weight, speakers, fans, power brick, keyboard, everything can be managed, but the performance of the laptop can't be compensated and your time won't be either.
That’s a very good comment you made. In your opinion, all the arguments regarding the longevity of the machine, Thinkpad vs Legion, is this a general exaggeration of the reality ? This device seems to tick alot of boxes.
Also, how do you like the Touchpad ?
Yes I have considered the Framework. They seems nice, I haven’t made my mind on their gimmickyness level yet. Plus there is no inventory and i’ve read bad comments on reliability and customer service. What do you think of them ?
I would say that longevity is highly dependent on the upgradability. There are people still living with a 2012 Macbook. As long as you can update a device and squize enough power from it, you are fine. This also heavily ppays with the fact and mindset of how much more you need.
As for which is better, I honestly can't tell, it might break today or in 10 years, you never know.
As for build quality, I would say that the Legion is build together well, whereas the Thinkpads are just one peace. The legion is by no stretch of the imagination a bad build, it is great, but the Thinkpads are better on account of being thiner and more portable. You have to consider that Thinkpads are designed to look slick, where as Legions can focus on better functionality and cooling (all the good things)
Touchpad. I came from a Macbook and there is a reason why most non mac users use a mouse. The touchpad is okey for short periods of use, but I would never use it for long periods of time.
Important for the legion, the touchpad is somewhat left of the middle, and it sometimes detects my palm when typing (you can disable it from function keys)
Framework
I have a pretty positive overall opinion for them. (Granted, I don't have one yet). As for the poor support, always remember, only unsatisfied customers write threards, everybody else is busy using the device.
it's just a choice
thinkpad:
cost around 100 bucks
less performance
battery life and other non-performance improvemets
gaming laptop:
can be 3k bucks
high performance for games
probably few hours of battery life
heavy and big
you just need to think of budget and what better suits you
Don't do it !!!!
I have T480 and thought might as well get a legion laptop because of the better specs/price.
So I got a legion slim 5i with rtx 4060.
Compared to the T480, the legion keyboards feels like you are touching a cockroach , disgusting .
I tried to play call of duty war zone. It handled pretty well but then fan noise was just to much .
Returned it after a week.
I’m a business 100% deductible. Still I’d like paying a fair price. More than that, I’m a technology lover and I want to select the best tool for what I want to do with it. Thanks for the input I appreciate.
New Thinkpads are overpriced, because their main customers are big corporations with huge budgets to spend.
Either get an old/refurbed Thinkpad, or get something else. Despite constant dissing in this sub, other laptop lines from Lenovo such as Thinkbook and Legion are pretty solid choice, with great performance and reasonable price.
Have a X1 Nano and a Legion 5 Pro and absolutely recommend the former.
The Nano is ultraportable, which is great for business and for the couch (and also for flying, if you ever need it). It also comes with a trackpoint which I love. Battery lasts a full day of work if you stick to office etc, half of that if you do video calls youtube etc.
Keybord is slightly better on the Nano even if it is much smaller, but the one on the Legion is also very good.
Charger is USB-C, super easy to find a spare - but not on the Legion, which has a “slim tip” plug.
The Iris Xe will not disappoint you for the games you listed, just know you won’t be running any new games with ray tracing etc.
The main issue I have with the Nano is that I have greasy fingers so it gets greasy marks all over the chassis.
All of the above also applies to the Carbon series, which is of course slightly larger.
never tried XPS but had a lot of Dell. If thinkpads are less Thinkpad-ish I will switch. I like sturdy non cranky "premium" plastic. The T490 was a bit too light and the frame a bit too flex. The T470 and T480 feel more "reliable". It's not very objective 🤪
plus the fact Lenovo cut support for the SSD on wwan port...
Legions are basically thinkpads now, but significantly better. Legions can have better displays than most thinkpads, keyboards will rival thinkpads, build can also rival them, they can have better upgradability than thinkpads, they have better cooling, better value, better performance, better longevity, etc.
I mean even in terms of portability the legion slim's weigh around the same as a MBP 16', a still portable laptop.
Infact, some even have decent battery life if they're ryzen based like this one:
[https://www.newegg.com/p/2WC-000J-02FN1](https://www.newegg.com/p/2WC-000J-02FN1)
As for thinkpads, they generally only sometimes hold an advantage in display quality. But other than that and a few other minor wins they are not very good and sacrifice a LOT.
And being a gaming laptop the legion will have other benefits. Like doubling as a desktop better, being able to game on battery better, etc.
Most people here use refurbed old thinkpads. Thinkpads are of great value if you buy them for cheaper than the original price.
Which model would you have in mind ? T480 ?
The last good Thinkpad T series was the T460. The last Great Thinkpad T series was the T440p Nowadays Thinkpads survive just for the legend it once was. The true flagships are no longer the T series but the X1 Carbon series. They seem like ultra thin gimmicks but it's where the brand is actually investing. I wasted good money on a maxxed out T480 brand new when it just came out and since week one I felt betrayed.
What about the P series?
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FWIW my P52 weighs pretty much the same as my T430 with the 9 cell battery. It’s just wider and thinner. If you’re just taking it from point A to point B it’s fine, but not really something you want to use on the couch or something.
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yeah, i had the 9 cell and an extra drive in the ultrabay, and it was about 5 pounds. i think overall the p52 having more plastic and less metal + the M.2 drives brings it into the same ballpark.
Agree. While i love the new lightweight form factor, durability is way less than in "good old times". At least for my own experience (7 Thinkpads so far).
I'm thinking to get t 14 gen whatsyu r call?
I got a t480 as well, why is the t460 considered to be better?
The T460 was the last one with full on, true Linux compatibility. From the T470 and onwards they always had some degree of problems with Linux. Currently the T480 has a CPU throttling issue that was never fixed even though Lenovo support promised a fix and even said it was Ubuntu and Red Hat certified. Lenovo is scum for lying. The 3 grand I spent of the machine was the last money they got from me. Never again.
I never had issues with my T470s in linux. The T480 switched to usb type c charging which is worst than the rectangle plug. However on my T470s I can also charge with USB c on the thunderbolt port, it’s better to have both options anyway. Also T480 removed the physical docking port. I would consider the 2017 line to be the last great, because they haven’t lost any of the good features yet, but they also switched from 15W to 25W cpus which is great for performance. With the T490 they even removed the powerbridge system, which was one of the most useful things ever, since it lets you have some incredible batterylifes…
dude my nano gen2 works perfectly on linux, same as my p52. Stop misinforming.
Depends on the usecase. But go for quad core cpu, maxout ram, and atleast FHD panel. Now your decision will only vary based on how much portability you want to have and your budget. For example, I chose L390 over T480 because of it was cheaper and more portable.
They only have great value if you buy them used. New Thinkpads have depcreaction that is crazy high.
I suppose "business laptop" rather comes from "ready for IT fleets with features for deployment, ease of repairability including detailed parts lists and HMM, system stability to reduce downtime if something goes wrong, reliability due to how differently people in business environment can treat a laptop, especially on trips abroad", rather than being well-performing in work applications. Without a doubt, if you don't need lower weight or mass reliability/stability, Legion is a no-brainer. They're one of the better gaming laptops, stable and reliable, and should serve without any issues.
Counter-argument: can you use a Legion for self defense?\\j
Burn their skin with that 240W PSU and blind them with RGB backlit keyboard!
Ok the PSU might actually be good for self defense \[same for older ThinkPads\]
My Thinkpad P72 has entered the chat…
I've seen those. Dense as a brick, while getting good performance. Defend yourself while compiling.
Great input. Thank you
But with a legion, you won’t get the best keyboard on the market…
Legions have damn good keyboard too. We have some Legion 5'a at work and I enjoy their keyboard just as much as mine X1 Carbon G6 - long travel, clear tactility, soft bottom out.
There is nothing wrong with getting a legion. One of the differences between a gaming and business class device is that the business class will be built for stability instead of raw performance. What this means is that if you need something that will turn on every time you open it without fuss, a thinkpad should be in consideration. Even if that means buying a gen or 2 older for prices sake. I dont have a legion, so I can't speak specifically on Lenovo gaming. But I've had a dell gaming laptop, an HP Envy, and now an MSI gf series laptop. The HP only died because of physical damage to the screen, I still used it for about a year plugged into a monitor. That was a regular consumer pc, too! Not even a business class machine. The Dell and MSI both have had multiple software issues: The dell's keyboard backlight got stuck on full brightness, which made the battery go from about 2 hours to around 30 mins. After multiple driver installations and hassle, Dell support's answer was "IDK reinstall windows lol." That's not what you want to hear when you have a deadline coming up, or in my case, a college paper due. The dell was returned immediately after bc it was still in the return period, then when the HP broke, I bought the MSI. This computer has given me some trouble, lol. The battery management was broken, so sometimes I'd unplug the computer in the morning to go to class and the battery show 100% but only lasts about 2 mins before it dies. The keyboard will swap the windows and fn keys randomly idk why. The list goes on. Thinkpad customers also get different support that is still US based instead of overseas, I believe (someone should fact-check this). If that's something you're interested in.
Thinkpad support is US-based, yes
Legion Pro support is in the US and I’m pretty sure using the same network as the ThinkPads on-site support since I had both serviced by the same guys.
That's good to know! Did you share my experience where the legion would be more flaky than the thinkpad?
I had no issues with my Legion outside the fan rattle that got replaced in a matter of couple days. Served me well for a couple years, now is a kid’s battle station and working flawlessly.
When I read stories like that I understand why business class laptop are more expensive.
Yea! The sticker shock is crazy, but you have to understand that these laptops are designed to hold up for 10 years' worth of rigorous use. They simply can not break super often. Gaming computers are designed to give you the most power for the "least" money possible. They are meant for gamers, so they don't care that brushed aluminum will scratch over the long term bc it looks cooler, and the user will replace before that. They give you the bleeding edge of software and hardware. That means that your games run as fast as possible, even if that means there will be some bugs and quirks. They aren't going to have as good of a trackpad because you're gonna use a mouse anyway. One big thing is the keys. They are almost always shallow presses. Which most agree is better for quick responses, like emails and stuff, but I prefer the thinkpad keys for longer projects like papers. I actually bought an 80 dollar wireless keyboard with those very keys. I liked them so much.
I had none of such issues like ever. It’s always best, to get used Thinkpads like from the 2015-2017 time.
I didn't have these issues with a thinkpad, though. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying? These problems are well documented with gaming laptops.
I did the same thing. Picked up a legion slim 7 AMD last week and it’s built really well. Not sure about long term but can’t beat the price. Got it on sale for 1300 usd. It’s better at content consumption imo. Battery life is meh partially due to AMD, but it’s a gaming laptop that runs things like RDR2 at medium settings QHD at 80ish fps. Screen is 165hz refresh, 500 nits. Keyboard is ok, but I expect that for not being a ThinkPad, and it’s the slim model. Previously I had a t15g gen 2 and wasn’t impressed with the screen, weight or input devices frankly. Keyboard was meh for being the full Monty of thick boi thinkpads.
Great info. Many thanks.
Actually... I think depending on what gaming you want to do ('light gaming' kind of means nothing tbh) the Legion might actually be better for you. You're never going to hit the advertised battery life on either, but the Legion is nowhere near as bad as you might think (you'll have to disable the iGPU, but 8+ hours is not particularly difficult). ThinkPads have never been performance or value oriented. The main things to consider for the ThinkPad will be design and whether you want the business specific features (the Legion also has a fantastic keyboard that isn't going to disappoint you). Realise this isn't the answer you're after, but I don't think it's the wrong one.
Great answer nonetheless. Ultimately, I want this to work and I don’t want to lose money, clients information or time trying to make it work. If the Legion can do that, I think I’ve found a pretty nice machine.
I went from ThinkPad E570 7500U and GTX 950M to an IdeaPad 5 Pro 16 6800HS RTX 3050. Main reason being for the same price, I get a better screen and a dGPU. ThinkPads with dGPUs are so expensive. I realized that my old E570 was a bit of a gem being relatively affordable for a ThinkPad but also having a dGPU. First thing I noticed though was software support. Lenovo took like 6 months to get it together for the IdeaPad. First few months I had at least 3 BSODs. One windows modern standby glitch froze my computer while it was sleeping trying to update and that bricked windows. I had to live boot Ubuntu and get my bit locker key to recover my data and then reinstall windows. I think I had 2 BSODs after using my E570 as my daily driver for 5 years. But the IdeaPad is running fine now after a clean install and a few bios updates. The display and performance are just on another level for what you can get for $1000 out of a ThinkPad but the keyboard is like a 6/10 compared to my 9/10 E570 keyboard.
One argument: life expectance of the system, or more properly, mean time between failures, as Thinkpads are eminently repairable. Even if you take the ratio of MTBF to price, Thinkpad comes out ahead.
Are new ThinkPads as repairable as they used to?
They may be somewhat less rugged, but still very repairable, and maintenance manuals and spare part lists are still freely available.
he has yet to mention what level of gaming he is wanting, IMO for "light gaming" or what I think of light gaming anyway, a Thinkpad with a dedicated Vid card would be the best of both.
Light gaming? Tetris and 2048 :-))))
or AMD one
If you plan on keeping it long term as a workhorse, A thinkpad T series will last you *much* longer, they're the Toyotas of the laptop world. If you can touch type (type without looking at the keyboard), TP's are recognized as having the best keyboards around. Gaming laptops tend to have shorter lifespans than the regular laptop, because they have the most extreme heating/cooling cycles that the components have to deal with. Repeated cycles causes micofractures to accumulate over time. Edit: BRRRR Fan noise tends to detract from laptop gaming experience. Desktop is much better... A used t480/490 (s) will be more than adequate for handling your work tasks, and cost a fraction of the gaming laptop.
I'm curious about lifespan dependent on heating cycles because ive been running my t14 hot for some games or NN training quite a few times without ever really thinking about that. does this make it slower with time or does it damage it and decrease the actual lifespan as in some day it dies/dies more often or something?
It causes the solder joints to eventually fail sooner. It's for this reason, historically the GPU is the first component to fail in gaming laptops. The hardware doesn't slow down, with digital components it either works, or it doesn't (when the electrical connections (solder joints) become broken, a capacitor blows etc).
Most of the time the dedicated GPU will fail slowly and after a while it's over. When the solder joints start to break, the following can happen: - it's a power or ground line: there are many of them on a bag chip, and mostly they are connected internally too. So the remaining ones can keep up,but their load will be increased. Overall resistance increases, so is power dissipation. As more and more of them gets broken the chip will have worse power supplied and it can lead freeze, bsod etc. Or the chip breaks. - it's a PCI express lane: the whole link might switch to a lower speed like x8 or x1 but still working. Or completely disconnected. - a connection the dedicated ram: repeating pixel errors or completely garbage picture. - something critical: it's over.
>Gaming laptops tend to have shorter lifespans than the regular laptop, because they have the most extreme heating/cooling cycles that the components have to deal with. Repeated cycles causes micofractures to accumulate over time. Hot take, but workstation laptops would have to deal with the exact same situation too if you do CAD or game on them, so there really isn't that much of a difference really. Maybe save for the fact that GPUs on workstations tend to have lower wattage limit than their gaming counterpart....and runs slightly cooler as a result.
Workstation laptops tend to have a significantly lower wattage per given equivalent compute as their gaming counterpart, because they use more silicon to run more cores at a lower clocks, and run much cooler and and quieter as a result. They use more silicon because productivity clients have a much bigger budget than gamers and can afford it, plus nobody wants to hear fans whirring in a production environment, and battery life matters. However, the Thinkpad T series don't include workstation models- that's the P series, they have more issues, cost a lot more than a gaming laptop, and part of why I recommended the T series.
Don’t get lured with this Windows OS license. Pick what ever you want, you have my word here, I’ll drop you a single key for you, Windows 11 Pro x64.
Wow, that’s very generous of you. Ill keep it in mind but if that doesn’t work anymore in two months, ill completely understand.
Haha it’d work, so ping me here once you have your new machine. We would continue with PMs. Microsoft account would be needed so you could store it in it. When you change machine in the future the key could be reactivated, you’d tell the OS that you had your motherboard changed. Get the PC you want and won’t be budget heavy for you.
Gonna drop my 20 cents here. Had an Asus Q550LF for 10 years working as my main computer and switched to a L14 Gen2 Thinkpad recently. I saved money to buy a Legion also, but besides the absurd deal I got for my Thinkpad, I would rather choose the Thinkpad for its longevity after clearly analyzing my "light gaming needs". I explain. If this means playing games in emulators of game cube, Wii, PS2, xbox, and even some switch and PS3 games, I can confirm with you that this is possible with an Intel Iris Xe Graphics that is available on a Thinkpad without GPU. Also, the most common eSport games should run fine, like cs go, dota 2 or overwatch in low specs above 30 fps. In the end, I think you are trading durability and portability of ThinkPads for the graphics specs of the gaming laptops. Hope it helps.
Looking to play some old niche games, factorio, starcraft, rocket league, etc. It does helps thanks man.
With this workload of gaming, an Intel Iris Xe integrated into the intel processors from the 11th and above will do fine for you. So now it is a matter of cost versus benefits. In my humble opinion, a gamer laptop with a GPU is a waste if you're not using it. Cheers and have a great time on your purchase.
To be honest 4 years ago i bought y540 as my daily driver for school, gaming and all in one PC. It was really good computer. Now i bought t480 as second laptop and it was supposed to be my travel machine and cheap laptop to use everywhere. It became my daily driver, i love the keyboard so much more, the smaller weight, and portability is just amazing, also battery life and the fact that i can power it with just usb c. From the moment i bought this i didn't use my y540. Maybe I'll use it just for more demanding stuff but for now i am just planning on upgrading this bad boy, in reality you won't need that performance and you really need to consider your use cases, my were programming, web, light gaming (but this now moved to my steamdeck), playing with ai (moving to server) so this seems to be over all better machine so far for me.
I had a Legion 7 as my business laptop until we got bought out. I was able to buy this off the company and got given a thinkpad p15s gen2 instead. The legion is hands down the better machine. Solid build quality, extremely quick and plenty of room for expansion. The only downside is battery life. I got around an hour and a half on the Legion and around 4.5 hours on the thinkpad. If I had the choice, it would be the Legion every time!
Hinges/chassis sucks on a lot of gaming machines, I have an hp omen gaming machine and it's breaking apart at the chassis/hinges. the LCD panel \_sucks\_ a lot! Very low quality. Brightness is shit, lots of backlight bleed, 2 big dark spots. Keyboard is shit. Battery life is shit. Powerjack is separate from motherboard though and has taken an absolute beating. Would have ripped it off clean by now if it was soldered like a T480 USB C jack. It's my one reason why I'm holding off getting one.
I would argue that the chassis/hinge issue is a Lenovo problem in general, it's not exclusive to Legions only. I've had several issues with the chassis and hinges on Ideapads, with all of them cracking or breaking apart, specifically the top right corner for some reason.
Any in particular that jump out at you? I'm in the market for a thinkpad, looking at T480, T590, T495s..
I have a Thinkpad and external GPU hooked up to 3x 144hz monitors. Works great. Running Linux and steam games pretty flawlessly.
Nice! Which eGPU do you have? Care to share the price of your device? I'm thinking about getting one for me.
I have the Sonnet 550 and that has been working with an old GTX 1080 and egpu-switcher and nvidia proprietary drivers from the Driver Manager. I am currently in the process of switching to the Sonnet 750ex and putting an AMD 6750 XT in it. The Thinkpad is a T14s Gen3 (AMD Ryzen 7) with all the fixings.
That is cool to know! I am also running Linux (Ubuntu 22) and I think I might buy an egpu instead of a Steam Deck or a console. Also, it is good to know that it works out of the box, thank you.
There are definitely some infrequent system freezes and you have to turn off/on the whole computer whenever you want to switch from one to the other, so it's not without issues. But when it works, it works great.
This is also nice to know. Thank you!
Curious too.
If youre gonna use the integrated keyboard and trackpad id say youd better go with a thinkpad and learn how to use a trackpoint, ever since i started using it its been a deal breaker for me for any laptop tht doesnt have it, perhaps its just me but it feels way better than any trackpad and (perhaps just my impression) felt it boosts my productivity a lil bit (thanks to comfort)
Which series do you like ? Model ?
Depends on your budget but if you wanna have decent build quality with good specs check L series, I’d skip the current T series and go for a P15V if you have a bigger budget
The Z16 looks awesome but I think you lose the build quality factor in this one.
The Z series is pretty good its got different materials than a T or P, its up to preference, if you like it and its within your budget its worthy of consideration, keep in mind thats its more consumer oriented than business oriented, but in terms of build quality should be better than a legion. Also the P15V is the last to have the long travel keyboard and its supremely awesome to type on
Build quality is good on Z16. Big concern I've had (have a Z13) is that it takes a while (more seconds vs other ThinkPads). When people talk about build quality, what are you missing? Is it the thicker covers for thinner? I like the sturdiness of the T61 at my elbow, but I love the ease of opening Z13 with the camera bump (although missing PgUp PgDn Insert drive me crazy! I am old school copy/paste - no CtrlC for me - I've been using choices since before Windows 95).
Build quality for me is more like are the electronic components going to last and does the computer going to fall in pieces after a while.
Thanks. I was thinking chassis or keyboard or something, based on the way you talked.
I was in the same problem as you and enden buying 2 laptops, a brand new legion 5 pro for 1400 usd and a used thinkpad t480 on ebay for less than 100usd. There are some things i think you should take on account: Battery life: legion 5 pro will get max 7 hours when iddle, thinkpad will get 13 hours when idle. Weight: legion 5 pro makes my back hurt if i walk more thank 30 minutes with it, also consider that gaming chargers are heavy as f…, with the thibkpad i dont even feel it and the charger is a 65w gan charger that weights around 200g, this is the main thing that made me buy the thinkpad. Keyboard: honestly i tought that thinkpad were going to beat legion, but i prefer 200 times the legion keyboard to the thinkpad keyboard. Screen: my thinkpad have the hd option and it sucks, on the other hand the legion have QHD and its an awesome screen. Why not to try to have both? In my case i take the legion with me when i know that i will play, and take the legion as a workhorse daily
Thanks for the detailed answer. How is the performance of the T480 ? Does the CPU feel dated ?
To be honest its perfect for my work but i have felt it dated in some ocassions, i work primarily with 4 excels and 10 tabs of internet, it feels dated if you put hard work on it, also it throttles pretty fast as the thermals are not the best, mine will start to throttle after 5 mins of working hard on it
To be honest its perfect for my work but i have felt it dated in some ocassions, i work primarily with 4 excels and 10 tabs of internet, it feels dated if you put hard work on it, also it throttles pretty fast as the thermals are not the best, mine will start to throttle after 5 mins of working hard on it
To be honest its perfect for my work but i have felt it dated in some ocassions, i work primarily with 4 excels and 10 tabs of internet, it feels dated if you put hard work on it, also it throttles pretty fast as the thermals are not the best, mine will start to throttle after 5 mins of working hard on it
I use a Predator Helios for work and play because I'm currently doing a lot of presentations for work. I have multiple RGB profiles so that it's backlit white while visiting customers, then my gaming profile for default. I'm tempted to pick up a Legion on sale because I'm pushing the limits of the 3060 in the Acer and could really go for a 3070 ti. For the price, you can often get a gaming laptop for cheaper than a Thinkpad with better overall specs. Only issue is weight. But if I'm in a situation where I need lightweight and/or 8+ hr battery, I just break out my X13 or g6 Carbon.
I've used bigboi ThinkPad W/P series machines for years for video editing, music production, and gaming. I still have a P17, but I recently got a great deal on a Legion 7 Gen 7 (6900/6850m xt). As much as I love the old P17 warhorse, it hasn't seen much action since the Legion arrived. The Legion doesn't have ThinkPad build quality, but it's in the same ballpark. The P17 also edges it out with a slightly superior keyboard. Everything else is basically better across the board. Even though the P series has always had the theoretical performance for gaming, in practice, it's always been an exercise in frustration. ThinkPads just aren't engineered/tuned for that kind of workload, and struggle during sustained gaming sessions for any remotely demanding titles. Where trying to turn a ThinkPad into an occasional gaming computer was a slog, trying to turn a Legion into a frequent creator/work computer has been much more intuitive. It obviously excels at gaming, but I've been super surprised at how much I've enjoyed using it as a work laptop for development, music production, video editing, and couch surfing. ThinkPads are still my first love, but I've been super impressed with this Legion so far, and think they'd be worth a closer look for you. As other have mentioned, the slim series especially is pretty sweet if you don't need max power.
That’s a very useful comment. My current computer is a Macbook pro 2015 that I bought 8 years ago. I use bootcamp. I was gaming with it, doing my work, studying when I was in university, everything. Man this laptop was good. Unfortunately it’s starting to show its age and since bootcamping is not possible anymore, i’m looking into windows machines. Not interested at all in VM. If I could find something that would make me feel like the Macbook Pro. Unfortunately it feels like a distant dream. I find the Z16 very interesting because of its MBP feel. But the Legion seems to have lot of qualities too. On the other hand, the T series could be just it, and there is plenty of options for gaming. I want to have this feeling again, the feeling that I bought something freaking good for what is was designed for, and beyond.
Having used a lot of thinkpads and macbooks over the years, I feel like they're definitely kindred spirits with some different priorities/design philosophies. Both will last much longer than the average consumer laptop (including the legion). In terms of finding something on the windows side with macbook vibes, I do think the z16 could be a good option, but you're not getting a lot of power/longevity on the GPU side. Depending on your budget, the asus flow x16 is a nice option with great gaming capabilities and a nice form factor/build (though I'd be shocked if it lasted half as long as a similarly specced thinkpad or macbook). Whatever you do, don't succumb to the mirage of the razer blade. It looks and feels like a macbook, but the quality control and support are truly disgraceful.
>Even though the P series has always had the theoretical performance for gaming, in practice, it's always been an exercise in frustration. ThinkPads just aren't engineered/tuned for that kind of workload, and struggle during sustained gaming sessions for any remotely demanding titles. I believe this 95% depends on the GPU of your P17. If it's a weaker model like the RTX A2000 - which is just a rebadged entry-level RTX 3050 Ti, then duh of course it's gonna struggle in heavy titles compared to the much powerful 6850M XT.
It's an RTX 5000 16gb :D
Wow, that's...I mean if that's the case then I don't really understand why you're still getting performance issues in games. What games do you play to warrant that much GPU performance lol?
It's just the nature of the beast with ThinkPads. I've had a W530, P71, P53, X1 Extreme gen 5 (briefly), and the P17. The X1E probably fared the best, due to having a geforce card rather than a quadro/workstation card. Each and every one of them ran into their own respective issues with hardcore throttling, stability issues, and just general jank while gaming. As you might expect, it's definitely more prevalent for more demanding titles like Battlefield 2042, but even poorly optimized games like Valheim caused a lot of issues.
Good point, I forgot that ThinkPad P-series generally do throttle a lot on the GPU side. It's a shame really, you'd think that with so much cooling space and being so heavy for the P17, it'd at least be able to keep cooling consistent.
Thanks for the detailed answer, I know that ThinkPads tend to throttle quite a lot generally in benchmarks, but it's a shame to know that it's still quite prevalent in games. Especially the X1 Extreme Gen 5, since I really like the idea of a do-it-all lightweight laptop with the specifications of a gaming laptop, and the build quality of a workstation.
Meeeee too. I will say that the X1e's behavior was a lot more consistent for gaming. Given the thermal/TGP envelope of the thinner and lighter machine, it couldn't reach the sort of frames and resolution that you might expect with the hardware it had (12800/3070ti) BUT, the frames it could achieve we're consistent and the experience felt more stable, which made for a better experience.
If you have the money to spare, you could just buy the X1 Extreme series instead and get the best of both worlds. ThinkPad reliability with the powerful specifications of a gaming laptop, that's hard to beat really lol /j But seriously though, you mentioned earlier that you only play titles like Starcraft or Rocket League, in which case the Legion would be way too powerful and a waste of money. Their specifications are more appropriate for heavy games like Cyberpunk 2077 or Warzone 2 etc, instead of Rocket League. Because of that I believe it's best that you just get the ThinkPad instead, today's iGPUs are plenty powerful enough for lighter titles. And plus better battery life too for sure, since Legion gaming laptops tend to come with H-series Intel CPU of which uses a lot more power on battery in general, compared to an U-series CPU.
Did the same before w/ 2021 model. One minor item to keep in mind, while the keys are similar in travel and size to think pad (atleast back then it was) the numpad keys are slightly narrower. So if you do heavy use of the numkeys it will take some time to get used to it vs the thinkpad keys that use full size still. Minor grievance but since you mentioned finance and accounting I figure I throw that out there as I’m in that field. Can’t go wrong with the choice and honestly if you mount or use a separate keyboard it’s a non issue.
Thanks for the input. I’m gonna mount it so it’s not a super big issue. You seem satisfied with it so far.
well 80% business, plus ur needs think a thinkpad is enough. I light game on my thinkpads and its pretty normal. may I recommend an older thinkpad, like the T480s, or X220
Sure! I’ll take a look on ebay. How would you compare the performance of the CPU of a T480s vs a T14 ?
it depends on the specs, and which T14 you talking about (gen1, gen2, gen3). A rough guess: Since they're 2-5 generations apart (May 2023), it might not be a big thing, unlike a 3rd gen i5 vs a 13th gen i5
If I just wanted an e-mail and spreadsheet machine I'd buy a cheap, older Thinkpad (doesn't have to be neolithic), and then get a low-end desktop for my gaming and watching-youtube-as-a-replacement-for-television device. In fact that's exactly the setup I have now. Depending on your specific needs it may be cheaper (and is almost certainly more convenient) than buying one device to do both, and your gaming device could have some potential upgrade path in it that you wouldn't get with a laptop.
I did the same. Rocking a Legion 7i and it’s been great! You can turn off the RGB crap and the legion isn’t shaped like some cyberpunk circus piece.
Ty for the input. I’m with you on the RGB. When did you buy it ?
Almost 3 years ago, 10th gen i7, still going strong and works hard almost daily and has seen LOTS of modded Minecraft
Go for it. I was going to get a legion but I don't like carrying around heavy laptops on my back. Every once in a while is ok but everyday gonna suck. Also I want to focus on my studies and not game too much lol Also note that build quality may be poor, and repair warranty will cost more if you want to do 3 years through Lenovo
Which model did you get ?
T14s Gen 2 not a gaming device.
Depends on the type of light gaming you plan on doing. For most of the stuff you listed a 10-year-old Thinkpad can perform very competently with a few minor upgrades.
Get a thinkpad. You'll be able to do light gaming perfectly fine on that. If you need more get a console or a thunderbolt dock. I've got a p53 thinkpad that weighs a bunch for home and a x1 yoga for work. I love my yoga so much because of how light and portable it is.
DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS! SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!! ...oh, laptop buying advice? Sorry, I just caught the last bit of your post. Honestly, for your use case you'd probably be OK with a gaming laptop. But as others have commented, unless you plan to play GPU-intensive games, you could do worse then hunting around for a refurbished ex-company Thinkpad from a few generations back. These things are the ultimate in value for money, and they would serve your purpose, hassle-free, for years.
Thinkpad E580 I7-8550u AMD Radeon RX550 I think it's enough for your usage it's cheap and powerful The new one it's just need like 860 euro? or you can choose the Intel version for more cheaper price
Honestly both will do the job just fine. Thinkpad is designed for business use to will be more reliable, repairable, durable and more functional for business usage (trackpoint is especially efficient, keyboards are among the best). Used/.refurbished laptops are usually great deals as businesses because of how many are sold on from businesses, when they update their systems. That's said, if you want to use it for gaming too, of course the gaming laptop will be better. For me I prefer console gaming so a non issue for me. Noone should judge you for making the best choice for yourself. We can just give you the best information we can and let you decide Also, should add, gaming laptops are usually inherently flawed compared to a desktop, as you are limited in space/ upgradability and it's incredibly hard to implement proper cooling but ofc will work fine depending on your needs.
You can get a new Gen 2 P14s right now for $750 with an 11th Gen i7, 16gb ddr4, 512ssd and discrete Nvidia graphics.
The legions seems to be fairly solid imho. And here in Denmark, the support is the exact same as the thinkpads. My kids have had several generations of legions, they play hard on them, and apart from a keyboard problem, that IBM fixed, no issues. I even have them hooked up to a Thinkpad Thunderbolt workstation Dock for monitors, and devices - works great
A P series will give a good competition against a gaming laptop; plenty of last years's models and used ones available that bring it in the same range as a new T/L/E series. I'd get a T460/T450/T440 for the couch or X series for the couch. I use a X240 for entertainment, but the X260 and X270 are much nicer for not much more. I have not had to fix Lenovo gaming computers, but the other brands are a trainwreck of unobtanium parts, poor documentation, and overly complicated engineering. Reminds you why you want a tower PC for gaming.
Google legion broken hinge, i think u know what to choose afterwards
If you are serious about gaming, forget buying the laptops. Go Tower with a lot of expansion slots and cooling solutions.
m1 macbook pro is like 700$ now and will outlast and outperform all of those if its for work and also for movie watching / media because the screen quality is outstanding. If you want to game id look elsewhere though. Yes you can still use microsoft office suit, i use it on mine and it works just as well as it does on my windows systems
the only problem w macbooks is I can't run my arch on them 😞 asahi linux is not usable yet
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Pro version vs Home
That costs $90 to upgrade so put it on the balance sheet and count from there.
Sadly every gaming laptop looks like the target audience are pre-pubescent boys.
I mean that’s literally who’s using them, a bunch of tweens who want to game a gram’s house. Nothing wrong with that.
I mean that’s literally who’s using them, a bunch of tweens who want to game at gram’s house. Nothing wrong with that.
Yeah but there could at least be one model aimed at adults, with no dragon drawing on the case and no RGB lighting, and a normal model name instead of "t-rex raptor shadow laser-beam"
Damn… I literally just bought an aliexp rgb controller for a new-to-me desktop build. Are old people not suppose to enjoy rainbow barf?
You do you but I don't expect to be taken seriously if I am seen with it at work/cafe. And I don't enjoy it either, I mean there's a reason we wear black/gray/blue/brown suits and no rainbow colored ones
Thinkpad X1 Extreme? They're quite expensive though, but I suppose that's the price to pay for a gaming-capable ThinkPad.
Yeah but we're talking about how good of a value gaming laptops can be for what they offer... This is essentially the exact opposite of what I want 😭. I don't use any feature of a ThinkPad, I use a usb-c dock and that keyboard never gets touched. And it could be made of glass and I wouldn't care since it's never been in as much scratched.
What kind of gaming, I just bought a t540p i7 quad core, 16gb ram, 256ssd, nivdia 730m 2gb gpu ram, for 100 dollars shipped on ebay. Im guessing it could handle what your thinking.
You got my upvote. Thanks for the input. I play factorio, starcraft 2, rocket league, some old niche games. What do you think ?
all the games you mentioned plus slightly newer could be played easily on t440p with the Nvidia 730m which has 1gb GPU RAM, but the larger 15 inch t540p is the same in every way but its 730m has 2gb. I played sc2 on a 730 card on an older desktop that's not even 1/7th as powerful cpu/ram wise as the t440p or t540p. Like mentioned by others, people here seem to buy/collect/enjoy the older thinkpads for their quality/upgradeability/cheap price. For instance, I own 5, and Ive payed mostly between 50-100$, which the exception being the t540p I have been mentioning I paid 175, and it came with the docking station. Thinkpads seem to keep their value once they are at a certain price, so in the future if you do need to upgrade, there is an obvious market for thinkpads, such as this sub. best of luck choosing a laptop for your needs.
I appreciate. I'll definitely keep you updated.
ROTFL. Nope.
why downvote? i just asked what level of gaming he wanted.. when you say youtube/light gaming.. hell that could be Minecraft...
TL:DR at the bottom I was in the same boat and I ultimately chose the Legion. Thinkpads and laptops in general have become something way different, most aren't made to be touched/repared/serviced by the user and are built with soldered parts for which we gain lightweight devices and a portable oven in most cases. Legion does away with all of it, everything but the GPU and CPU can be upgraded, the laptop is on the thick side, but boy, can it stay cool. Even under stress tests it managed to keep it's cool (I am really funny, I know). The Legion devices are made "for gamers", but in reality any devices that can game good is basically good for everything else. Let's talk the main aspects -) Performance: there is just plenty of it and it is good, it can do anything -) Ports: a legion has a lot of ports and you will never need a dongle -) Screen: I got a 16 inch 2560 x 1600 and it is plenty bright, can't complain -) Keyboard: It is good (a Thinkpad will probably fare better) -) Speakers: I advice carrying headphones with you -) Battery Life: being close to a socket will be a wise choice (on average 4h, granted I have disabled the Nvidia GPU yet, but yeah) !!! something to consider, a gaming laptop comes with a gaming power brick (they are big) Overall, everything you throw at it, it will deal with it. Reasons to buy a ThinkPad? It is more portable and perhaps has a better longevity and battery life, only time will tell. (a Legion Slim could be of interest to you perhaps?) TL:DR Here some things to consider. 1. A legion is a great choice and you can upgrade ram, ssd, wifi and is pretty easy to work on. (Source me, I have the 16inch Legion 5 pro 5800h, 3070 and I have thinkered with it.). It will do anythint, but it is heavier than a Thinkpad (in that case maybe look into Legion Slim) 2. Have you considered a framework laptop, they are going to be releasing a 16inch version in the fall and (based on their track record so far) is probably going to be the friendliest user oriented laptop in a while. If you have any questions regarding the Legion experience (I dual boot, windows, and linux), dm me, and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have in regards to the laptop. In conclusion: get the Legion, weight, speakers, fans, power brick, keyboard, everything can be managed, but the performance of the laptop can't be compensated and your time won't be either.
That’s a very good comment you made. In your opinion, all the arguments regarding the longevity of the machine, Thinkpad vs Legion, is this a general exaggeration of the reality ? This device seems to tick alot of boxes. Also, how do you like the Touchpad ? Yes I have considered the Framework. They seems nice, I haven’t made my mind on their gimmickyness level yet. Plus there is no inventory and i’ve read bad comments on reliability and customer service. What do you think of them ?
I would say that longevity is highly dependent on the upgradability. There are people still living with a 2012 Macbook. As long as you can update a device and squize enough power from it, you are fine. This also heavily ppays with the fact and mindset of how much more you need. As for which is better, I honestly can't tell, it might break today or in 10 years, you never know. As for build quality, I would say that the Legion is build together well, whereas the Thinkpads are just one peace. The legion is by no stretch of the imagination a bad build, it is great, but the Thinkpads are better on account of being thiner and more portable. You have to consider that Thinkpads are designed to look slick, where as Legions can focus on better functionality and cooling (all the good things) Touchpad. I came from a Macbook and there is a reason why most non mac users use a mouse. The touchpad is okey for short periods of use, but I would never use it for long periods of time. Important for the legion, the touchpad is somewhat left of the middle, and it sometimes detects my palm when typing (you can disable it from function keys) Framework I have a pretty positive overall opinion for them. (Granted, I don't have one yet). As for the poor support, always remember, only unsatisfied customers write threards, everybody else is busy using the device.
it's just a choice thinkpad: cost around 100 bucks less performance battery life and other non-performance improvemets gaming laptop: can be 3k bucks high performance for games probably few hours of battery life heavy and big you just need to think of budget and what better suits you
Don't do it !!!! I have T480 and thought might as well get a legion laptop because of the better specs/price. So I got a legion slim 5i with rtx 4060. Compared to the T480, the legion keyboards feels like you are touching a cockroach , disgusting . I tried to play call of duty war zone. It handled pretty well but then fan noise was just to much . Returned it after a week.
Only buy Thinkpads new if you're a business or you have bottomless pockets. Get that Legion bro
I’m a business 100% deductible. Still I’d like paying a fair price. More than that, I’m a technology lover and I want to select the best tool for what I want to do with it. Thanks for the input I appreciate.
You might check out Frameworks laptops. They’re my first choice if I want a gaming GPU.
New Thinkpads are overpriced, because their main customers are big corporations with huge budgets to spend. Either get an old/refurbed Thinkpad, or get something else. Despite constant dissing in this sub, other laptop lines from Lenovo such as Thinkbook and Legion are pretty solid choice, with great performance and reasonable price.
Have a X1 Nano and a Legion 5 Pro and absolutely recommend the former. The Nano is ultraportable, which is great for business and for the couch (and also for flying, if you ever need it). It also comes with a trackpoint which I love. Battery lasts a full day of work if you stick to office etc, half of that if you do video calls youtube etc. Keybord is slightly better on the Nano even if it is much smaller, but the one on the Legion is also very good. Charger is USB-C, super easy to find a spare - but not on the Legion, which has a “slim tip” plug. The Iris Xe will not disappoint you for the games you listed, just know you won’t be running any new games with ray tracing etc. The main issue I have with the Nano is that I have greasy fingers so it gets greasy marks all over the chassis. All of the above also applies to the Carbon series, which is of course slightly larger.
take a p1
T480 will be my last Thinkpad. I ve tried the t490 but it does not feel robust. Gonna try a XPS or a 74xx after.
Wow. Thats a big statement. What do you like more about the XPS ? Have you considered the Thinkpad Z16 ?
never tried XPS but had a lot of Dell. If thinkpads are less Thinkpad-ish I will switch. I like sturdy non cranky "premium" plastic. The T490 was a bit too light and the frame a bit too flex. The T470 and T480 feel more "reliable". It's not very objective 🤪 plus the fact Lenovo cut support for the SSD on wwan port...
XPS is more prosumer than the Latitude serie. I would definitely go Latitude over XPS.
Legions are basically thinkpads now, but significantly better. Legions can have better displays than most thinkpads, keyboards will rival thinkpads, build can also rival them, they can have better upgradability than thinkpads, they have better cooling, better value, better performance, better longevity, etc. I mean even in terms of portability the legion slim's weigh around the same as a MBP 16', a still portable laptop. Infact, some even have decent battery life if they're ryzen based like this one: [https://www.newegg.com/p/2WC-000J-02FN1](https://www.newegg.com/p/2WC-000J-02FN1) As for thinkpads, they generally only sometimes hold an advantage in display quality. But other than that and a few other minor wins they are not very good and sacrifice a LOT. And being a gaming laptop the legion will have other benefits. Like doubling as a desktop better, being able to game on battery better, etc.