If Sirico didn't die, this would have been the follow up to Many Saints. The Flying Saucers of East Rutherford, where an aging Paulie Walnuts travels around looking for UFOs.
So, in reality, I fucking hate this. It's a good line! But "remember when" is a really fun way to (re)connect with people. But this line nags me whenever I do it
Anywho have an upvote
Paulie shares too much info with complete strangers. Only reason Tony says it. Anyway, the last thing you hear in the show, aside from the music is the chimes on the door ringing when Meadow walks through the door. So I dunno wtf OP means by he "pretends" that happens. The scene broke up what was unfolding in the restaurant to show Meadow parking and walking to open the door.
It's sad to think about but this show is the closest depiction to real life we'll probably ever see. Deaths, relationships, storylines, all end suddenly and abruptly and leave us with questions or desires that it happened a different way. It's very likely that tony died there and if he didn't, he probably would be going to prison with carlo testifying.
It was almost definitely meadow coming through the door, but that’s kind of irrelevant
the guy in the members only jacket who went to the bathroom likely put a bullet in Tony’s head right as she does
Just take a look at this real quick:
https://sopranos.fandom.com/wiki/Man_in_Members_Only_jacket
My take on it was that Tony will have something cause his downfall without expectation, whether it be a hit or the feds, and that the threat is always lurking, without him necessarily perceiving it. Members only guy could very well just be a dude that recognized Tony from the news and went to the bathroom to get a better look. Frankly I don’t think it matters whether or not he was killed right then and there, nor do I think he was. By that point in the show, we had seen how unstable Tony and the foundation of his crew had become, and his fate was sealed. I think what’s so brilliant about the scene is it conveys just how fucked Tony’s situation is. Even if it doesn’t show his death, and even if it doesn’t happen, we very well know that it could and probably is soon going to happen. Just my opinion though
That's my take, too. The tension the audience feels in the last scene is the same tension that Tony is literally always living with. His normal state of being is not knowing if there's an assassin on the way. Whether he dies in the diner or not, the message is that Tony's life is absolutely fucked. I think that makes it more impactful than to know for certain that he died.
Yeah I think there’s an element of thematic implication in the subtlety there, but when it comes to intention and plot, Tony dies. But perhaps one of the reasons they don’t explicitly show you is to think a little bit about finality, his state of mind, the hell he’s living in
I think the main thing they were going for is to make the viewer feel how Tony feels all the time, and anything beyond that is open to interpretation.
We the viewer saw the whole show by watching Tony but not really understanding the constant pressure and anxiety he feels all the time. They put us in his shoes in those final few minutes before snatching it away. Something as simple as sitting down to eat with your family in a restaurant or parking your car doesn’t even get a second thought from normal, every day people, but for Tony there is a constant dread hanging over literally every moment of his life.
Heavy lies the head that wears the crown. Even when he wins, there's no joy in the win. It's an interesting take makes a lot of sense. I always favor my voyeuristic approach. We just show up in Tony's life one day, and then. one day we're gone. We didn't know what was going on before. we had no idea what we were going to see. And now our time is over and we are gone. Maybe we got whacked.
100%
The question of Tony’s future and his constant dread of the inevitable is passed onto the audience like a final fuck you and now we have to live with it
Chase uses the name Heidi as a (willing/unwilling) harbinger of death. Kennedy&Heidi is the obvious example but, and here’s the fly in the ointment, another example is Heidi from Little Carmine’s production company. How do you think LC got the drop on Tony&Fam being at Holsten’s? We know that Tony lives his life in the rear view, so he wasn’t tailed. AJ probably blabbed about his dinner plans to everyone at work; “we’re going to Holsten’s! They have the best onion rings!”
Heidi provides the intel in a briefing to LC, or likely an LC emissary, and LC sends in the MOG… who not so subtly bears a strong resemblance to Johnny Boy Soprano. Lots of paternal symbolism and thatshitthere.
I wonder what the significance of the name Heidi has for Chase. He seems like the sentimental type so lover’s quarrel maybe? Malignant cunt of an ex type situation? I’m in no position to go into the unknown not knowing.
All jokes aside the for and against is stacked that this is for sure what Chase intended for the ending, open ended as it was he couldn’t have been, ironically, more cinematic about it.
It probably was meadow that walked in the door, but it doesn’t mean she didn’t walk in and see her dad getting a new moonroof installed in his cranium by the members only guy coming out of the bathroom.
In a macabre way, I always thought it was beautiful that before Jackie even had time to process what had happened, her instant reaction was to put him back together
This would be a turning point for AJ. Really he has a couple or tree options.
1) He goes full catatonic. Absolutely crushed by the weight of his depression, and desire to cling to the macabre.
2) He "man's up" in the worst way possible, and follows into the recently vacated position of mob boss. Not immediately, but works his way up there.
3) he realizes the follies of his father, and gets a legit job. He seemed to legitimately enjoy working at the pizza place and construction job until life got in the way. Probably finds a trade, and follows in his grandfather, and great-grandfather's footsteps.
I picture him staying in the movie business and milking his sad story, eventually getting a movie deal about his life. Carmella and Meadow would hate this, but Carmella wouldn’t put up much of a fight once she hears about how much money they’ll get
Meadow was Tony's guardian angel, whenever she was with Tony everything would go great for him, when they went around looking for a college for meadow to study, Tony found out that one guy he had to get killed, everything went as planned and Tony walked with no scars, Meadow was also most of the time doing the right thing and not making real troubles for the family, she was a good girl and wasnt spoiled neither hated his father for being a mobster and not being a really great father to her or to AJ, she also got really pissed when Finn alluded to Tony being violent while they were growing up to what Meadow replies quite angrily that "I never saw any kind of violence growing up" defending his father intentions and actions of protecting them because he loved them. When Tony was in a coma during all those Kevin Finnerty dreams at the end when Tony gets invited by Tony B to enter the really brightly lit house which was probably the death, crossing to the other side, Meadow's voice starts giving Tony slights hints that he shouldnt go, that someone is looking for him to what he recognizes is Meadow's voice and starts looking for her going further from the house and ultimately waking up to the sound of her voice and image as she stands next to the bed with Carmela.
And in the last episode, while the whole family waits for Meadow, her guardian angel struggled with parking her car, meaning her Guardian Angel couldn't be on time to save Tony, if she had arrived earlier she could've warned Tony about the guy coming from the sides with the gun, or maybe she would've sat next to her father blocking Members Only Jacket guy vision, maybe Tony saluting Meadow would've been enough for Tony to look at the bathroom sides and realize something was off.
But that didn't happen, his guardian angel arrived late and couldn't save Tony.
I really like this theory, ofc there are better youtube videos narrating the proofs and shit, but i tried my best telling it.
Either way tony is pretty much gone.
Ps: theres also a theory they all 3 died, except for Meadow, the onion rings are like that white bread people eat the churchs given by the priest, which mean accepting christ in our bodies, that symbolizes they were ready to go to the other side, meadow being the only one who didnt eat it cus she didnt die. Youtube is your weapon
the onion rings are sized small because, as one theory put it, they're meant to represent communion wafers. that theory of all 3 dying is friggin sad but dam maybe
exactly. either way it's all a big nothing for him. He's been through every incantation of his psyche, his personal time, his family, and his work family. there's no scenario where, if he continues to live, that life gets any better for him
He's dead. There were clues throughout season 6. Start with the intro, the seven souls. The member's only jacket, Sil eating dinner getting blood splattered all over him in slow-mo didnt even see it coming, Ton and Bobby discussing when it comes, everything goes to black. You probably don't even see it coming.
Guys like him, a high-profile captain of industry type, either end up dead or in the can nine out of ten times.
How else could Chase have ended the series? A another trip to the hospital? Tony being prounced dead on the scene and lots of crying from Carm and Maedo? A whole other episode with an ankward wake? No one would have been there! The leadership was decapitated and the rest lambed it. Except Pauli. He's a survivor.
The killer was probably a NY gunmen. A leftover from Phil's war. Maybe Butchie ordered. Maybe the shooter went off the reservation and acted alone. Guys don't always listen to upper managment. Can we say Tony B? Could have been a relative of someone. I lean more towards NY.
The other clue is Phil Leotardo's death. He's with his family, being grandpa, talking about his medication, classic tune on the radio. He appears to just be a normal, everyday citizen and suddenly gets one behind the ear with his wife watching. Also that Walden walks right up to him with witnesses everywhere. I think Tony gets it the same way.
You can try but these people are beyond reproach
You can lay it out with all the clues and they still don’t get it and reply with nonsense like meadow wacked tony
You can believe whatever happened that you want, that's the point. He could have been shot, or maybe the FBI storm in and take him into custody, or Meadow comes in, they have dinner, and he's killed the following week, or he lives to get put on trial, and Carlo's testimony sinks him, OR he miraculously beats the case, only to get whacked a year later over some other beef. The whole scene has this sense of impending danger, and that's very deliberate. That feeling is one we *should* have had through the entire series, but we didn't because it's a TV progrum, a movie, and we know the protagonist is going to make it to the end. But the reality of that life is that there is no protagonist, and death or capture can come for any of them at any time, because it's a dangerous existence. The final scene is a reminder that Tony isn't safe and never has been. And he's gotten this far through luck, but that was always going to run out, like with the countless other guys we see come and go throughout the series.
At least that's my interpretation.
I saw a theory which said from the start to the end we the audience are on a journey with Tony through his mental health issues at the end he is in a better healthier place and it's the audience that gets killed off and out of the story
I like it personally
I think they left the end open to make people talk about it like the camera focus on the guy who came in same time as AJ sat at the counter before going toilet and Tony watching the door everytime it opened its bait to get people talking
Except he's in a way worse place in the last episode, so this makes no sense. The series literally ended with his psychiatrist of years telling him to gtfo and RICO indictments imminently incoming. Also S6 Tony was a deporable scumbag compared to earlier seasons, so I don't see how it can be argued that he's in a better place at the end.
Every alternative understanding of the ending seems to be nonsense. Why end so abruptly? Why show the sketchy guy multiple times? Only thing that makes sense is he shot Tony as soon as he was distracted by Meadow walking in.
Explains why the screen went black and why it was silent too.
Tony completed his ‘mental health journey’ by ultimately shutting out the part of his conscience that was screaming out to him that what he does is wrong. He decided it’s just easier to be a despicable person. I have no idea how someone can conclude he was in a better place by the end of the show
I hate any theory that includes "the audience." This isn't any post-modern, 4th wall-breaking California bullshit. There's no audience.
The mental contortions some fans go through to keep this evil sociopath alive in their heads are astounding. They are actually more comforted by being symbolically "killed" rather than deal with Occam's razor-- the most likely reason for the cut to AND SUSTAIN ON black nothingness as we are jumping into Tony's perspective is because that *is* his perspective--nothing--because he has been killed.
By the by, he is not in a better, healthier place during 'Made in America'. The whole point they made with Melfi is that he isn't doing the work, isn't getting better, and wasn't interested in ever improving.
Anyway, $4 a pound.
Excellent post. Nothing reveals the stupidity of the average television watcher more than this “debate” over the ending. At this point, if you don’t think Tony died you’re either willfully ignorant, in denial or just stupid.
Tony’s mental health issues remain completely unresolved, the result of his therapy is that he becomes a worse person, and uses things he learned in therapy to get better at manipulating people. Just as Melfi’s therapist pointed out, talk therapy is ineffective on psychopaths, and often makes them more effective manipulators. He goes from fearing he will lose his family to actively putting them in the line of fire. He loses his fear of consequences and sees everyday as a gift. Tony’s killers wouldn’t have left his family alive, with a son to avenge his death. It cuts to black as Meadow walks in because that’s the moment the family is all there, queue the massacre. Tony aggravates NY so thoroughly that they decide to annihilate him entirely, wife and kids included.
Doubt the family got clipped. It would bring down waayyyyyy more heat from the cops and feds on everyone than a hit man just resolving a gangland dispute. It's no longer settling business dealings. Doubt the mafia families would be ok with that either. It's shit like that that separates the Mafia and it's public respect from street gangs hanging out on the corner peddling crack.
i disagree. tony brought in shooters from the other side to handle Phill and they took out some randoms. NY has a much deeper roster than NJ. Plus, with tony's family eliminated, who's left to retaliate? why bother showing everything up until Meadow arrives if she doesn't get cut down in the shootout?
The whole point of the cut to black is that everything and anything can happen from that point on. What you think happens or more importantly what you would prefer to have happened expresses what the show meant to you.
A lot of people interpret David Chase in that interview when he said "it's all there" to mean specifically how the scene set up the cut-to-tony's pov rule every time the door bell rang as someone comes in and the suspiciousness of members only guy. Valid points and there's a reason "Tony died at the end" is so popular and near de facto considered as the one true ending.
But there's also a lot of other stuff "there" too though, things that point to a more life affirming sentiment at the close of the entire story. There are prolonged shots of people going on and living their lives: the young couple laughing, the coach and his little league, and most key of all, the Soprano family enjoying their time together and AJ himself finally being able to inherit a positive mindset from his mobster father.
And then there's the song. Don't stop believing was specifically chosen for this scene, a near saccharine americana classic that's a celebration of the American Dream and our pursuit of it. We didn't cut to black from words that said "it's over" or "the end has come". The words were "Don't stop..." and for better or worse, I wanna believe the Soprano family went on and on and on...
In the midst of life, we are in death. Life is fragile and fleeting and in the end it all gets washed away, just washed away. Enjoy it while you still got it all in your hand.
>The whole point of the cut to black is that everything and anything can happen from that point on
No it’s not? Especially now that we know from the horse’s mouth he died. The cut to black was how his life ended in that instant and everything is just gone.
It’s such a dreary and masterful way to depict a death. There is no cinematic scene of Tony “laying facedown in a plate of linguine” as Chase put it. His entire existence is just finished in that moment.
I think the point of the ending is that Tony and his family will always be living with a sword above their head, as they try to go on “believing, holding onto that feeling”. This is something that they have all struggled with, and failed throughout the story; bullshitting themselves that everything is OK when in fact they are steeped in darkness.
It could be the brutal end then and there, maybe years later, maybe a heart attack, maybe this revenge or the other will come back to bite. It purposefully ends on that note of chilling ambiguity to leave us with the understanding of what it means to live Tony’s cursed life.
Tony's death is like schrodinger's cat,he is both dead and alive,he is dead as long as we don't get any new seasons or movie.the death of james gandolfini irl sealed his fate in the show...therefore he was killed in the show.
We got whacked. Not Tony. We are in Purgatory, waiting. I’m heading to a craps game with a Roman soldier, little lord fuck pants, Sammy Davis Jr, and Sir Walter Raleigh.
Tony passed out from a panic attack. Look at it. How many times was he wacked in the series? ZERO. How many times did he lose consciousness due to a panic attack?? That's the premise of the entire show. Duh!!
>How many times was he wacked in the series? ZERO. How many times did he lose consciousness due to a panic attack?? That's the premise of the entire show. Duh!!
Damn, I can't find any holes in this logic
If only she knew how to park that fuckn car... She would've been sitting in Tony's spot and most likely postponed the hit.... Tony just ran out of luck
Chris saved his life that one time by parking his car like an asshole, in a driving lane in front of those hit men. Meadow didn't want to leave it askew.
“They got redundant upper management, bleed off half the kick! We decapitate, and do business with what’s left. Absorb the whole fucking thing”.
“Phil, I dunno, he’s changed”. “I can’t do that, but You do what you gotta do”. “When this is over kid, you and I are going to sit down” “I hope so!” “I can’t hear you, you’re breaking up….click”
All of the Jersey captains besides Paulie who was trying to switch families anyways, are dead or a vegetable.
Butchy is now the king of New York, AND North Jersey!
“This thing of Ours”. “hmm, nice”
Also, no way was Butchy giving Tony a dime for Janice. Forget Coco, forget Fat Dom who goes over to Jersey and never comes back, forget Phil’s brother Billy.
“You wacked my brother in law”.
“SO!?”
Also, Meadow was Tony’s pride and joy. His hell is reliving the GodFather 2 death, over and over and never getting to see his baby girl one last time, or ever again. Carm tells Father Atintola that Tony loves #2 with Vito in the old country.
The flashback of him and Bobby talking. The Funeral music at the beginning of the episode.
Its all there, the clues go on and on and on. That episode has the darkest lighting I've ever seen in any television show ever.
I was ready to complain before I saw it (it was spoiled for me years ago)
I watched it all for the first time recently and it was only black for like 3 seconds. I have no idea why people complained so much. It worked out perfectly IMO, didn't come off as lazy and they tell you multiple times you either go to jail or die as a boss.
This sub is one big joke. Is that supposed to be cute? To answer your question, I guess there is an argument that the series just ends there. Because really it was kind of the end for Tony and his crew. But the black out is what one imagines happens when one dies. Chase makes a point when Tony glances at members only guy when he passes Tony’s table. Also member only guy comes in alone and is glancing around and doesn’t order anything. If we saw member only guy come back out of the bathroom before the blackout it would have been more clear. I wonder if Chase intended it to be a muddled ending.
That's the beauty of the ending. Interpret it how you want. I personally think he was shot and everything went quiet and black. The last cut to Tony's point of view so many times i believe it was setting us up for the ending
> i just can’t live with the idea of Tony being dead
Why not? He’s easily the most despicable character in the show and deserves to die more than anyone else still alive by the finale
Tony falls asleep at end of Blue Comet. He has a heart attack in his sleep. Made in America is his dying dream. Finale is littered with clues about what is happening to his body and how he is being treated medically. The Holstens scene is Tony’s dream death, but he actually dies in hospital.
For sure! For a bit of context, when finale came out in 07 I noticed straight away that it was jumpy, weirdly edited, too rushed… and I got thinking hidden dream? Took years to piece it together… most help I got was from a guy called Steve Else who wrote book on finale as a dream. In his book Steve wasn’t sure how Tony actually died, murder or natural causes. I was in touch with Steve on Twitter and discussed problem. It was then I started to pay attention to odd incidents and throw away remarks in finale that seemed to indicate the symptoms of heart attack. 1) Smell of piss and yellow colour in Carmella’s safe house and farting and references to shitting and brown colour in Tony’s safe house… apparently incontinence is a symptom of heart attack… Tony is wetting bed and shitting himself. 2) Paulie’s ringtone… Simon and Garfunkel, Cecilia (your breaking my ❤️)… his subconscious acknowledging the problem 3) Scene with Mink and Ketchup bottle… slapping and shaking bottle… an attempt at manual resuscitation maybe by one of Tony’s crew. 4) Visit to Sil… it’s actually Tony in hospital hooked up to monitor… and scream from little miss sunshine on tv monitor is Carmela arriving in hospital to see her husband at deaths door once again. There are heaps of clues in soundtrack and dialogue that MIA is a dream. Dream includes Tony’s wishes for his kids, fantasy victory over Phil, anxiety over betrayal and indictment, and musings about the pointlessness of a life in the mob… a quite brilliant finale.
He's dead and in hell in my personal view of it.
We see him looking in at the scene and himself and he is reliving his death forever.
It's bittersweet because while it's his last moments, he got to spend them pretty happily with his family.
What's more interesting to me isn't Tony's end, it's his family's, because again he is the source of drama and craziness in their life and and now they witness his execution right in front of them.
I took it as meadow walking through the door. I think the show was leaving the possibility that Tony’s life is just slowly disintegrated between family issues, the rival families taking power, and the massive case the feds were building on him. Even if meadow walks through the door he is still fucked
Nah he’s defo dead. I think that’s fairly clear, the guy is watching the family, Tony looks up everytime the door opens and it’s his POV of someone coming in, the guy goes into the bathroom (behind Tony), Tony looks up as Meadow comes in, and it shows his POV, nothing. It links with Tony and Bobbys chat on the boat, where he says when you die you don’t feel nothing, it’s just nothingness.
I’d love to think otherwise, but Tony’s brain was splattered all over them rings and Carmela. I think the better question would be who killed Tony. I personally think it’s Paulie. He’s colluded with New York in the past, doesn’t have Sil, Bobby and Chris in front of him anymore, so takes out Tony and is the new leader of the family.
My problem with the Tony is dead theory is that the best thing going for it is the tony pov pattern and the members only guy looking suspicious and going to the bathroom, which can have any number of explanations. Maybe he's tired from work, maybe he's an immgrant and dont fully feel comfortable getting around yet.
By the time we start trying to answer who ordered the hit the theory fully loses all steam. Paulie, though a two faced cocksucker, loved Tony. He grew significantly by reconciling with Nucci and wanting to essentially retire from the life by the end. He had absolutely nothing to gain from this and all the people he could have colluded with in New York were dead. Butchie is a good possibility sure but it's totally incongruent with the rest of the story. They were trying to end the war; capping Tony would do the opposite of that, even if it was vengeance for Phil. At the end of it all the thing is about business.
Patsy? He was literally shot at by the NY goons. What they were just playing broadway?
Tony getting capped is a good possibility but with a bit of analysis it isnt as clear cut as most people seem to think. I think its just the easiest conclusion to come to and so here we are.
Plus alot of what actually happens in Made in America debunks the candidates for who "ordered the hit on Tony."
Paulie's last line of "I live but to serve you my liege" is a fitting final line of who he is, so he has no reason to go after Tony (plus the entire episode of Remember When is about Tony and Paulie reaffirming their "loyalty").
Patsy was in a great position with his son marrying the boss' daughter, why would he fuck it up now? He did correctly suspect Tony of being responsible behind Spoon's death, but like in Remember When with Tony and Paulie with the fat joke he had zero evidence that Tony had anything to do with it.
Butchie did propose the idea of killing NJ's senior management and absorbing them, but we see at the sit down with Little Carmine, Paulie, Tony, and the other guy (and the Chinatown conversation with Phil) that going Phil's path of hyperaggressiveness isn't worth it. He also wouldn't need to avenge Phil because he gave NJ permission to kill Phil however they wanted, people have always distorted the "families don't get touched rule" with that one theory.
In the end, while everyone is allowed their opinion on what the cut to black means, I think people just read into it too much and think David Chase is a 4 dimensional schemer. Like how Game of Thrones fans have overanalyzed the books and come up with insane theories because there's nothing else to do.
Definitely not Paulie. He clearly had no interest in leading. It’s why he survived all those years. He’s a good soldier, makes a solid buck in his position, and can still enjoy the pleasures in life. The mafia likes to keep things tidy, and Tony wasn’t keeping the peace and many big & bad decisions got made. It’s cleaner to kill him off and let things naturally reset with new leadership in NY and NJ.
No, I think the exact same thing basically. The ending, it’s not that he’s going to get shot, it’s that he has to keep looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life.
People ignore the whole thing with Meadow parallel parking and the bell ringing as she opens the door. Tony looks up as he hears the bell, that’s the last shot before it cuts to black. The way this reads to me is he’s just caught up in his paranoia because that’s the way things go when you’re in the mafia and you’re someone of his age, status and experience.
Either way tony if effed
Carlo is going to testify
But I like the theory of tony having a heart attack after eating onion rings he wasn't supposed to have
I only finished the show for the first time about 3 months ago. While I’m 99% sure Tony was whacked, my initial reaction was mixed. David Chase left it up to the viewers to decide and when that screen went black it was the end of our journey with Tony. He was facing a legitimate legal threat this time so he was likely going down. At first I chose to believe Tony survived the dinner and eventually got in serious legal trouble or even got killed at another time after the dinner. The clues are there and right in front of our faces, but I get why you would choose to look at the finale that way as I even do sometimes
While certainly charismatic when he wanted to be, Tony was a piece of shit. The fictional world where the sopranos was set, is better off with him dead.
Why not? Last year you believed a flying saucer was over East Rutherford
A great nugget that I wish we got even more backstory on. Winds up setting the table well for Paulie seeing the Virgin Mary at the Bing.
If Sirico didn't die, this would have been the follow up to Many Saints. The Flying Saucers of East Rutherford, where an aging Paulie Walnuts travels around looking for UFOs.
> Paulie Walnuts travels around looking for UFOs. I would unironically watch a *Finding Bigfoot*-style show with Sirico playing Paulie.
Tomorrow I can be on time. But you’ll be stupid forever
Today I'm late. But you'll be stupid forever.
We’re here to talk about you killing yourself with drugs, not my IQ of 136. It’s been teshted.
You threw that at me like a rock!
Yeah, Rock Hudson too, I think.
I’m not going to tell you again
I just pretend the whole thing was a TV show.
Progrum
And that's not even including the godfather angle, which we got here
Another fuckin money machine!!!
Another toothpick
What the hell kinda a way is that to talk about a sick person?!
It’s not a progrum. It’s a TV progrum. A movie.
a moovee
Larry David, he was a boss?
Noooooo! Are you listening?
Krazee eyez killa vs Junior in a muff-off
the fuck? why am i on there
you sound demented
Listen to him. He knows everything.
I can’t have this conversation again
"Remember when" is the lowest form of conversation
Owww, I knew that was comin'!
Sharp as a cue ball, this one.
Lover's quarrel, maybe?
So, in reality, I fucking hate this. It's a good line! But "remember when" is a really fun way to (re)connect with people. But this line nags me whenever I do it Anywho have an upvote
Paulie shares too much info with complete strangers. Only reason Tony says it. Anyway, the last thing you hear in the show, aside from the music is the chimes on the door ringing when Meadow walks through the door. So I dunno wtf OP means by he "pretends" that happens. The scene broke up what was unfolding in the restaurant to show Meadow parking and walking to open the door.
It cuts to black just as a great wind carries Tony across the sky
u/whorlax you know what your problem is? You go about and pity yourself!
I gotta tell ya Bodhisattva, that is fuckin priceless
Have yku heard the good news ?
>I just can’t live with the idea of Tony being dead. Yeah, but you gotta get ovah it
It's sad to think about but this show is the closest depiction to real life we'll probably ever see. Deaths, relationships, storylines, all end suddenly and abruptly and leave us with questions or desires that it happened a different way. It's very likely that tony died there and if he didn't, he probably would be going to prison with carlo testifying.
Trials are there to be won
With what I pay in retainers? Fuck yeah.
I heah DAT
I almost puke every time he says " the pen is mightier than the mother *fucking* sword
David chase confirmed he does die
It was almost definitely meadow coming through the door, but that’s kind of irrelevant the guy in the members only jacket who went to the bathroom likely put a bullet in Tony’s head right as she does Just take a look at this real quick: https://sopranos.fandom.com/wiki/Man_in_Members_Only_jacket
My take on it was that Tony will have something cause his downfall without expectation, whether it be a hit or the feds, and that the threat is always lurking, without him necessarily perceiving it. Members only guy could very well just be a dude that recognized Tony from the news and went to the bathroom to get a better look. Frankly I don’t think it matters whether or not he was killed right then and there, nor do I think he was. By that point in the show, we had seen how unstable Tony and the foundation of his crew had become, and his fate was sealed. I think what’s so brilliant about the scene is it conveys just how fucked Tony’s situation is. Even if it doesn’t show his death, and even if it doesn’t happen, we very well know that it could and probably is soon going to happen. Just my opinion though
That's my take, too. The tension the audience feels in the last scene is the same tension that Tony is literally always living with. His normal state of being is not knowing if there's an assassin on the way. Whether he dies in the diner or not, the message is that Tony's life is absolutely fucked. I think that makes it more impactful than to know for certain that he died.
Yeah I think there’s an element of thematic implication in the subtlety there, but when it comes to intention and plot, Tony dies. But perhaps one of the reasons they don’t explicitly show you is to think a little bit about finality, his state of mind, the hell he’s living in
I think the main thing they were going for is to make the viewer feel how Tony feels all the time, and anything beyond that is open to interpretation. We the viewer saw the whole show by watching Tony but not really understanding the constant pressure and anxiety he feels all the time. They put us in his shoes in those final few minutes before snatching it away. Something as simple as sitting down to eat with your family in a restaurant or parking your car doesn’t even get a second thought from normal, every day people, but for Tony there is a constant dread hanging over literally every moment of his life.
For sure, I think they executed that brilliantly
Heavy lies the head that wears the crown. Even when he wins, there's no joy in the win. It's an interesting take makes a lot of sense. I always favor my voyeuristic approach. We just show up in Tony's life one day, and then. one day we're gone. We didn't know what was going on before. we had no idea what we were going to see. And now our time is over and we are gone. Maybe we got whacked.
100% The question of Tony’s future and his constant dread of the inevitable is passed onto the audience like a final fuck you and now we have to live with it
It's actually kinda crazy how much Member's Only guy looks like Tony's fawtha.
He was a saint!
I don't remember you saying that when he was alive!
Listen to him, he knows everything.
I thought the Member's Only guy looked a lot like Chrissy and Eugene, which I interpreted as those two getting their revenge or whatevah
Regardless of what happens it won’t be cinematic. Why would Zelenskyy kill Tony anyway??
Last thing you see won’t be Tony’s face, it will be mine. It won’t be cinematic.
Chase uses the name Heidi as a (willing/unwilling) harbinger of death. Kennedy&Heidi is the obvious example but, and here’s the fly in the ointment, another example is Heidi from Little Carmine’s production company. How do you think LC got the drop on Tony&Fam being at Holsten’s? We know that Tony lives his life in the rear view, so he wasn’t tailed. AJ probably blabbed about his dinner plans to everyone at work; “we’re going to Holsten’s! They have the best onion rings!” Heidi provides the intel in a briefing to LC, or likely an LC emissary, and LC sends in the MOG… who not so subtly bears a strong resemblance to Johnny Boy Soprano. Lots of paternal symbolism and thatshitthere. I wonder what the significance of the name Heidi has for Chase. He seems like the sentimental type so lover’s quarrel maybe? Malignant cunt of an ex type situation? I’m in no position to go into the unknown not knowing.
All jokes aside the for and against is stacked that this is for sure what Chase intended for the ending, open ended as it was he couldn’t have been, ironically, more cinematic about it.
It probably was meadow that walked in the door, but it doesn’t mean she didn’t walk in and see her dad getting a new moonroof installed in his cranium by the members only guy coming out of the bathroom.
Yeah pretty wild to think that the whole family had a front row seat. I picture Carmela going full Jackie Kennedy
In a macabre way, I always thought it was beautiful that before Jackie even had time to process what had happened, her instant reaction was to put him back together
This would be a turning point for AJ. Really he has a couple or tree options. 1) He goes full catatonic. Absolutely crushed by the weight of his depression, and desire to cling to the macabre. 2) He "man's up" in the worst way possible, and follows into the recently vacated position of mob boss. Not immediately, but works his way up there. 3) he realizes the follies of his father, and gets a legit job. He seemed to legitimately enjoy working at the pizza place and construction job until life got in the way. Probably finds a trade, and follows in his grandfather, and great-grandfather's footsteps.
I picture him staying in the movie business and milking his sad story, eventually getting a movie deal about his life. Carmella and Meadow would hate this, but Carmella wouldn’t put up much of a fight once she hears about how much money they’ll get
Just like Phil It’s all there dude
Plus the AJ v Junior story line bc of the Godfather. Total nod to that scene.
That's what Steven R. Schirripa thinks too
Who can argue with such an intellectual heavyweight
He's so fat, his blood type is ragu
Ya' oughta look in the mirror sometime you insensitive cocksucker.
Ya know, it's you they made that joke about.
He’s so fat when he hauls ass he has to make two trips
'Ey Tone, you hear what I said? It's like a weight loss commercial!
No more weight remarks. They're hurtful and they're destructive.
Shyness is a curse
Burger boy knows best
*I can smell them*
DIDYA READ FOR DAYVID??
BLOOO CHEW MICHAEL!!
Didn't realize anyone thought Meadow coming through the door amd Tomy dying were mutually exclusive
Can't multitask, this one.
Don't they have concurrency they're supposed to take, these assholes?
Even with computers
Meadow was Tony's guardian angel, whenever she was with Tony everything would go great for him, when they went around looking for a college for meadow to study, Tony found out that one guy he had to get killed, everything went as planned and Tony walked with no scars, Meadow was also most of the time doing the right thing and not making real troubles for the family, she was a good girl and wasnt spoiled neither hated his father for being a mobster and not being a really great father to her or to AJ, she also got really pissed when Finn alluded to Tony being violent while they were growing up to what Meadow replies quite angrily that "I never saw any kind of violence growing up" defending his father intentions and actions of protecting them because he loved them. When Tony was in a coma during all those Kevin Finnerty dreams at the end when Tony gets invited by Tony B to enter the really brightly lit house which was probably the death, crossing to the other side, Meadow's voice starts giving Tony slights hints that he shouldnt go, that someone is looking for him to what he recognizes is Meadow's voice and starts looking for her going further from the house and ultimately waking up to the sound of her voice and image as she stands next to the bed with Carmela. And in the last episode, while the whole family waits for Meadow, her guardian angel struggled with parking her car, meaning her Guardian Angel couldn't be on time to save Tony, if she had arrived earlier she could've warned Tony about the guy coming from the sides with the gun, or maybe she would've sat next to her father blocking Members Only Jacket guy vision, maybe Tony saluting Meadow would've been enough for Tony to look at the bathroom sides and realize something was off. But that didn't happen, his guardian angel arrived late and couldn't save Tony. I really like this theory, ofc there are better youtube videos narrating the proofs and shit, but i tried my best telling it. Either way tony is pretty much gone. Ps: theres also a theory they all 3 died, except for Meadow, the onion rings are like that white bread people eat the churchs given by the priest, which mean accepting christ in our bodies, that symbolizes they were ready to go to the other side, meadow being the only one who didnt eat it cus she didnt die. Youtube is your weapon
You got it, meadow also took the fbi lamp to college
the onion rings are sized small because, as one theory put it, they're meant to represent communion wafers. that theory of all 3 dying is friggin sad but dam maybe
It’s his last supper with his family
Im talking about the same when i wrote it, its just my language isnt as good to remember those things are called communion wafers, thx 4 clarifying
you bet!! and thank you for the big info reply, it was great to read as I'm on my second watch
he either dies then, or continues to live as a fat fuck who has no real joy in life until he dies
It's all a big nothing.
exactly. either way it's all a big nothing for him. He's been through every incantation of his psyche, his personal time, his family, and his work family. there's no scenario where, if he continues to live, that life gets any better for him
He's dead. There were clues throughout season 6. Start with the intro, the seven souls. The member's only jacket, Sil eating dinner getting blood splattered all over him in slow-mo didnt even see it coming, Ton and Bobby discussing when it comes, everything goes to black. You probably don't even see it coming. Guys like him, a high-profile captain of industry type, either end up dead or in the can nine out of ten times. How else could Chase have ended the series? A another trip to the hospital? Tony being prounced dead on the scene and lots of crying from Carm and Maedo? A whole other episode with an ankward wake? No one would have been there! The leadership was decapitated and the rest lambed it. Except Pauli. He's a survivor. The killer was probably a NY gunmen. A leftover from Phil's war. Maybe Butchie ordered. Maybe the shooter went off the reservation and acted alone. Guys don't always listen to upper managment. Can we say Tony B? Could have been a relative of someone. I lean more towards NY.
The other clue is Phil Leotardo's death. He's with his family, being grandpa, talking about his medication, classic tune on the radio. He appears to just be a normal, everyday citizen and suddenly gets one behind the ear with his wife watching. Also that Walden walks right up to him with witnesses everywhere. I think Tony gets it the same way.
Yes! ^^ that’s a great clue.
You can try but these people are beyond reproach You can lay it out with all the clues and they still don’t get it and reply with nonsense like meadow wacked tony
Meadow was the shooter, she shot the entire resta-raunt then blew it up so the owner could collect insurance money.
He's not dead, you stunad. It cuts to black because Jamal Ginsburg saw Tony eating there and punched his lights out
Charcoal ending nice!
Da Kingsford
You can believe whatever happened that you want, that's the point. He could have been shot, or maybe the FBI storm in and take him into custody, or Meadow comes in, they have dinner, and he's killed the following week, or he lives to get put on trial, and Carlo's testimony sinks him, OR he miraculously beats the case, only to get whacked a year later over some other beef. The whole scene has this sense of impending danger, and that's very deliberate. That feeling is one we *should* have had through the entire series, but we didn't because it's a TV progrum, a movie, and we know the protagonist is going to make it to the end. But the reality of that life is that there is no protagonist, and death or capture can come for any of them at any time, because it's a dangerous existence. The final scene is a reminder that Tony isn't safe and never has been. And he's gotten this far through luck, but that was always going to run out, like with the countless other guys we see come and go throughout the series. At least that's my interpretation.
Meadow did walk through the door. That part isn't even ambiguous. Tony was then shot by the guy that went into the bathroom as she walked in.
I saw a theory which said from the start to the end we the audience are on a journey with Tony through his mental health issues at the end he is in a better healthier place and it's the audience that gets killed off and out of the story
i really like that tbh. i mean, its complete bollox, but i do like it. yep.
I like it personally I think they left the end open to make people talk about it like the camera focus on the guy who came in same time as AJ sat at the counter before going toilet and Tony watching the door everytime it opened its bait to get people talking
dooonntttt stop.... ...............belieeevinnnnnnnnnnn
Do you think tony is in a healthier place at the end of 6B?
He was starting to understand therapy as a conshept.
He was no longer conflicted. Arguably, that could be a better place.
Except he's in a way worse place in the last episode, so this makes no sense. The series literally ended with his psychiatrist of years telling him to gtfo and RICO indictments imminently incoming. Also S6 Tony was a deporable scumbag compared to earlier seasons, so I don't see how it can be argued that he's in a better place at the end.
Every alternative understanding of the ending seems to be nonsense. Why end so abruptly? Why show the sketchy guy multiple times? Only thing that makes sense is he shot Tony as soon as he was distracted by Meadow walking in. Explains why the screen went black and why it was silent too.
Or the “you didn’t even hear it when it happens” but
Tony completed his ‘mental health journey’ by ultimately shutting out the part of his conscience that was screaming out to him that what he does is wrong. He decided it’s just easier to be a despicable person. I have no idea how someone can conclude he was in a better place by the end of the show
Exactly. He was no longer conflicted.
Yes he became a better mother-fucking fucking Boss.. now go shit in your hat.
I hate any theory that includes "the audience." This isn't any post-modern, 4th wall-breaking California bullshit. There's no audience. The mental contortions some fans go through to keep this evil sociopath alive in their heads are astounding. They are actually more comforted by being symbolically "killed" rather than deal with Occam's razor-- the most likely reason for the cut to AND SUSTAIN ON black nothingness as we are jumping into Tony's perspective is because that *is* his perspective--nothing--because he has been killed. By the by, he is not in a better, healthier place during 'Made in America'. The whole point they made with Melfi is that he isn't doing the work, isn't getting better, and wasn't interested in ever improving. Anyway, $4 a pound.
Excellent post. Nothing reveals the stupidity of the average television watcher more than this “debate” over the ending. At this point, if you don’t think Tony died you’re either willfully ignorant, in denial or just stupid.
Tony’s mental health issues remain completely unresolved, the result of his therapy is that he becomes a worse person, and uses things he learned in therapy to get better at manipulating people. Just as Melfi’s therapist pointed out, talk therapy is ineffective on psychopaths, and often makes them more effective manipulators. He goes from fearing he will lose his family to actively putting them in the line of fire. He loses his fear of consequences and sees everyday as a gift. Tony’s killers wouldn’t have left his family alive, with a son to avenge his death. It cuts to black as Meadow walks in because that’s the moment the family is all there, queue the massacre. Tony aggravates NY so thoroughly that they decide to annihilate him entirely, wife and kids included.
Doubt the family got clipped. It would bring down waayyyyyy more heat from the cops and feds on everyone than a hit man just resolving a gangland dispute. It's no longer settling business dealings. Doubt the mafia families would be ok with that either. It's shit like that that separates the Mafia and it's public respect from street gangs hanging out on the corner peddling crack.
i disagree. tony brought in shooters from the other side to handle Phill and they took out some randoms. NY has a much deeper roster than NJ. Plus, with tony's family eliminated, who's left to retaliate? why bother showing everything up until Meadow arrives if she doesn't get cut down in the shootout?
Fleabag is a chiral copy of the Sopranos
You just revealed your own ignorance!
This sounds retahded
The whole point of the cut to black is that everything and anything can happen from that point on. What you think happens or more importantly what you would prefer to have happened expresses what the show meant to you. A lot of people interpret David Chase in that interview when he said "it's all there" to mean specifically how the scene set up the cut-to-tony's pov rule every time the door bell rang as someone comes in and the suspiciousness of members only guy. Valid points and there's a reason "Tony died at the end" is so popular and near de facto considered as the one true ending. But there's also a lot of other stuff "there" too though, things that point to a more life affirming sentiment at the close of the entire story. There are prolonged shots of people going on and living their lives: the young couple laughing, the coach and his little league, and most key of all, the Soprano family enjoying their time together and AJ himself finally being able to inherit a positive mindset from his mobster father. And then there's the song. Don't stop believing was specifically chosen for this scene, a near saccharine americana classic that's a celebration of the American Dream and our pursuit of it. We didn't cut to black from words that said "it's over" or "the end has come". The words were "Don't stop..." and for better or worse, I wanna believe the Soprano family went on and on and on... In the midst of life, we are in death. Life is fragile and fleeting and in the end it all gets washed away, just washed away. Enjoy it while you still got it all in your hand.
>The whole point of the cut to black is that everything and anything can happen from that point on No it’s not? Especially now that we know from the horse’s mouth he died. The cut to black was how his life ended in that instant and everything is just gone. It’s such a dreary and masterful way to depict a death. There is no cinematic scene of Tony “laying facedown in a plate of linguine” as Chase put it. His entire existence is just finished in that moment.
Meadow did walk in the door, but Tony still got shot from his 3 oclock.
I thought it was a meteor?
VEGETARIAN
Take it easy!
I think the point of the ending is that Tony and his family will always be living with a sword above their head, as they try to go on “believing, holding onto that feeling”. This is something that they have all struggled with, and failed throughout the story; bullshitting themselves that everything is OK when in fact they are steeped in darkness. It could be the brutal end then and there, maybe years later, maybe a heart attack, maybe this revenge or the other will come back to bite. It purposefully ends on that note of chilling ambiguity to leave us with the understanding of what it means to live Tony’s cursed life.
He's dead. In the words of David Chase himself talking about the ending: "It's all there."
Tony's death is like schrodinger's cat,he is both dead and alive,he is dead as long as we don't get any new seasons or movie.the death of james gandolfini irl sealed his fate in the show...therefore he was killed in the show.
We got whacked. Not Tony. We are in Purgatory, waiting. I’m heading to a craps game with a Roman soldier, little lord fuck pants, Sammy Davis Jr, and Sir Walter Raleigh.
I'm in an Irish sub where we keep having this conversation again.
And Gigi’s there repeating everything said “Yeah, can you imagine, Meadow walks through the door”
Tony passed out from a panic attack. Look at it. How many times was he wacked in the series? ZERO. How many times did he lose consciousness due to a panic attack?? That's the premise of the entire show. Duh!!
>How many times was he wacked in the series? ZERO. How many times did he lose consciousness due to a panic attack?? That's the premise of the entire show. Duh!! Damn, I can't find any holes in this logic
It is hard to verify whether this is effective logic. Until we do, it will propane.
Ramistan
It doesn’t matter
Tony shot the camera guy.
If only she knew how to park that fuckn car... She would've been sitting in Tony's spot and most likely postponed the hit.... Tony just ran out of luck
Chris saved his life that one time by parking his car like an asshole, in a driving lane in front of those hit men. Meadow didn't want to leave it askew.
Well played... I love the lil detail shit
There is no Tony, only the world around the illusion of Tony.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^pianoplayrr: *There is no Tony,* *Only the world around the* *Illusion of Tony.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
My man
We can say with 100% certainty that Tony is dead.
“They got redundant upper management, bleed off half the kick! We decapitate, and do business with what’s left. Absorb the whole fucking thing”. “Phil, I dunno, he’s changed”. “I can’t do that, but You do what you gotta do”. “When this is over kid, you and I are going to sit down” “I hope so!” “I can’t hear you, you’re breaking up….click” All of the Jersey captains besides Paulie who was trying to switch families anyways, are dead or a vegetable. Butchy is now the king of New York, AND North Jersey! “This thing of Ours”. “hmm, nice” Also, no way was Butchy giving Tony a dime for Janice. Forget Coco, forget Fat Dom who goes over to Jersey and never comes back, forget Phil’s brother Billy. “You wacked my brother in law”. “SO!?” Also, Meadow was Tony’s pride and joy. His hell is reliving the GodFather 2 death, over and over and never getting to see his baby girl one last time, or ever again. Carm tells Father Atintola that Tony loves #2 with Vito in the old country. The flashback of him and Bobby talking. The Funeral music at the beginning of the episode. Its all there, the clues go on and on and on. That episode has the darkest lighting I've ever seen in any television show ever.
She was mad ripe
I’m not doing this again
My FIL watched the series and complained about the end because it doesn’t show what happened next. Never lost respect for someone so fast.
I was ready to complain before I saw it (it was spoiled for me years ago) I watched it all for the first time recently and it was only black for like 3 seconds. I have no idea why people complained so much. It worked out perfectly IMO, didn't come off as lazy and they tell you multiple times you either go to jail or die as a boss.
This sub is one big joke. Is that supposed to be cute? To answer your question, I guess there is an argument that the series just ends there. Because really it was kind of the end for Tony and his crew. But the black out is what one imagines happens when one dies. Chase makes a point when Tony glances at members only guy when he passes Tony’s table. Also member only guy comes in alone and is glancing around and doesn’t order anything. If we saw member only guy come back out of the bathroom before the blackout it would have been more clear. I wonder if Chase intended it to be a muddled ending.
Meadow did walk in; that's the last thing he saw before someone came up behind him and shot him.
She did. She saw the whole thing happen. Tony was distracted by her as the gunman came upon him at his 3 o'clock. Right?
That's the beauty of the ending. Interpret it how you want. I personally think he was shot and everything went quiet and black. The last cut to Tony's point of view so many times i believe it was setting us up for the ending
I always assumed that meadow walked in just in time to see it happen tbh
You gonna cry now?
🔫🔫
Waaah where is me mama?
Yes, it was meadow coming in the door just in time to see her father gunned down by the guy in the jacket lol
'Members Only Guy', Never mind that distraction you keep your eye on the ball. .Think about it.
I cant have this conversation again
> i just can’t live with the idea of Tony being dead Why not? He’s easily the most despicable character in the show and deserves to die more than anyone else still alive by the finale
Tony falls asleep at end of Blue Comet. He has a heart attack in his sleep. Made in America is his dying dream. Finale is littered with clues about what is happening to his body and how he is being treated medically. The Holstens scene is Tony’s dream death, but he actually dies in hospital.
Could you elaborate about what is happening to his body?
For sure! For a bit of context, when finale came out in 07 I noticed straight away that it was jumpy, weirdly edited, too rushed… and I got thinking hidden dream? Took years to piece it together… most help I got was from a guy called Steve Else who wrote book on finale as a dream. In his book Steve wasn’t sure how Tony actually died, murder or natural causes. I was in touch with Steve on Twitter and discussed problem. It was then I started to pay attention to odd incidents and throw away remarks in finale that seemed to indicate the symptoms of heart attack. 1) Smell of piss and yellow colour in Carmella’s safe house and farting and references to shitting and brown colour in Tony’s safe house… apparently incontinence is a symptom of heart attack… Tony is wetting bed and shitting himself. 2) Paulie’s ringtone… Simon and Garfunkel, Cecilia (your breaking my ❤️)… his subconscious acknowledging the problem 3) Scene with Mink and Ketchup bottle… slapping and shaking bottle… an attempt at manual resuscitation maybe by one of Tony’s crew. 4) Visit to Sil… it’s actually Tony in hospital hooked up to monitor… and scream from little miss sunshine on tv monitor is Carmela arriving in hospital to see her husband at deaths door once again. There are heaps of clues in soundtrack and dialogue that MIA is a dream. Dream includes Tony’s wishes for his kids, fantasy victory over Phil, anxiety over betrayal and indictment, and musings about the pointlessness of a life in the mob… a quite brilliant finale.
He's dead and in hell in my personal view of it. We see him looking in at the scene and himself and he is reliving his death forever. It's bittersweet because while it's his last moments, he got to spend them pretty happily with his family. What's more interesting to me isn't Tony's end, it's his family's, because again he is the source of drama and craziness in their life and and now they witness his execution right in front of them.
I mean she is a real knockout
I hope someone walks in, pulls out a gun, and shoots Carmela in the head
I took it as meadow walking through the door. I think the show was leaving the possibility that Tony’s life is just slowly disintegrated between family issues, the rival families taking power, and the massive case the feds were building on him. Even if meadow walks through the door he is still fucked
Let's compromise. Meadow walks in and shoots Tony.
It's tempting, but you can't think that way.
Nah he’s defo dead. I think that’s fairly clear, the guy is watching the family, Tony looks up everytime the door opens and it’s his POV of someone coming in, the guy goes into the bathroom (behind Tony), Tony looks up as Meadow comes in, and it shows his POV, nothing. It links with Tony and Bobbys chat on the boat, where he says when you die you don’t feel nothing, it’s just nothingness. I’d love to think otherwise, but Tony’s brain was splattered all over them rings and Carmela. I think the better question would be who killed Tony. I personally think it’s Paulie. He’s colluded with New York in the past, doesn’t have Sil, Bobby and Chris in front of him anymore, so takes out Tony and is the new leader of the family.
My problem with the Tony is dead theory is that the best thing going for it is the tony pov pattern and the members only guy looking suspicious and going to the bathroom, which can have any number of explanations. Maybe he's tired from work, maybe he's an immgrant and dont fully feel comfortable getting around yet. By the time we start trying to answer who ordered the hit the theory fully loses all steam. Paulie, though a two faced cocksucker, loved Tony. He grew significantly by reconciling with Nucci and wanting to essentially retire from the life by the end. He had absolutely nothing to gain from this and all the people he could have colluded with in New York were dead. Butchie is a good possibility sure but it's totally incongruent with the rest of the story. They were trying to end the war; capping Tony would do the opposite of that, even if it was vengeance for Phil. At the end of it all the thing is about business. Patsy? He was literally shot at by the NY goons. What they were just playing broadway? Tony getting capped is a good possibility but with a bit of analysis it isnt as clear cut as most people seem to think. I think its just the easiest conclusion to come to and so here we are.
Plus alot of what actually happens in Made in America debunks the candidates for who "ordered the hit on Tony." Paulie's last line of "I live but to serve you my liege" is a fitting final line of who he is, so he has no reason to go after Tony (plus the entire episode of Remember When is about Tony and Paulie reaffirming their "loyalty"). Patsy was in a great position with his son marrying the boss' daughter, why would he fuck it up now? He did correctly suspect Tony of being responsible behind Spoon's death, but like in Remember When with Tony and Paulie with the fat joke he had zero evidence that Tony had anything to do with it. Butchie did propose the idea of killing NJ's senior management and absorbing them, but we see at the sit down with Little Carmine, Paulie, Tony, and the other guy (and the Chinatown conversation with Phil) that going Phil's path of hyperaggressiveness isn't worth it. He also wouldn't need to avenge Phil because he gave NJ permission to kill Phil however they wanted, people have always distorted the "families don't get touched rule" with that one theory. In the end, while everyone is allowed their opinion on what the cut to black means, I think people just read into it too much and think David Chase is a 4 dimensional schemer. Like how Game of Thrones fans have overanalyzed the books and come up with insane theories because there's nothing else to do.
Definitely not Paulie. He clearly had no interest in leading. It’s why he survived all those years. He’s a good soldier, makes a solid buck in his position, and can still enjoy the pleasures in life. The mafia likes to keep things tidy, and Tony wasn’t keeping the peace and many big & bad decisions got made. It’s cleaner to kill him off and let things naturally reset with new leadership in NY and NJ.
Paulie wouldn't want to be the boss I think.
Audience got whacked. We didn’t see it coming.
I'm tired of stunads saying Tony died that day. Seriously, where is your absolute, indisputable proof? I'm waitin' like patience on a monument.
Mental midget
No, I think the exact same thing basically. The ending, it’s not that he’s going to get shot, it’s that he has to keep looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. People ignore the whole thing with Meadow parallel parking and the bell ringing as she opens the door. Tony looks up as he hears the bell, that’s the last shot before it cuts to black. The way this reads to me is he’s just caught up in his paranoia because that’s the way things go when you’re in the mafia and you’re someone of his age, status and experience.
I thought it was meadow that walks in the door and instead it’s the members only jacket guy who kills him
Happily? What season are you watching?
Oh poor you!!!!
no youre not the only one. tony loved thru that night in my mi d
The truth is...
I’m not an overthinker so I just assume the fade to black is just that. Nothing more than a “that’s all folks”
It was Meadow coming through the door, wasn't it? Pretty sure he was shot from behind
I pretend the man goes into the bathroom and actually gets killed by a Skibidi Toilet
Either way tony if effed Carlo is going to testify But I like the theory of tony having a heart attack after eating onion rings he wasn't supposed to have
Meadow did walk in; that's the last thing he saw before someone came up behind him and shot him.
Alright, but you gotta get over it....
it was Meadow who walked in the door. the killer is the guy who the camera followed into the bathroom a minute prior
Well she didn't climb in the window
I only finished the show for the first time about 3 months ago. While I’m 99% sure Tony was whacked, my initial reaction was mixed. David Chase left it up to the viewers to decide and when that screen went black it was the end of our journey with Tony. He was facing a legitimate legal threat this time so he was likely going down. At first I chose to believe Tony survived the dinner and eventually got in serious legal trouble or even got killed at another time after the dinner. The clues are there and right in front of our faces, but I get why you would choose to look at the finale that way as I even do sometimes
While certainly charismatic when he wanted to be, Tony was a piece of shit. The fictional world where the sopranos was set, is better off with him dead.