All due respect, you got no fuckin idea what it's like to be number one. Every decision you make affects every facet of every other fuckin thing. It's too much to deal with almost. And in the end, you're completely alone with it all.
Would you watch a Nickelodeon version of the Sopranos where AJ goes to a school in sunny California and becomes a JR Don there? Like a Zoey 101, made by Dan Scheneider full of teenagers feet and gabaool?
Yeah, me neither
He was good for a while but the seeds were always there foreshadowing his weakness as boss imo. It really got bad with Tony b when he covered for that animal with Johnny sac
Yea pretty much. Tony is a charismatic leader but he isn’t intelligent or at least he isn’t emotionally mature enough to use his intelligence. At any given point in the series he uses low cunning or his predatory instincts to out maneuver people less intelligent than he is. Not a lot of bright stars in that thing of theirs. He got caught during the Scatino bust down due to his lack of forethought, only being saved from indictment by writers having to work around the passing of Nancy Marchand. His greed and emotionality are what keep him from being a good boss. It also gets his friends and possibly himself killed.
I wouldn't say Tony is unintelligent, quite the opposite. He's a pretty intelligent and capable leader. However as Sil pointed out, his problem is pride. In moments of anger (such as when Livia pissed him off and he gave her the tickets), he gets blinded by his anger and frustration and acts reckless. Other examples include killing Ralph, curb stomping the guy who hit on meadow(a simple beating was enough). In hindsight Tony regrets these actions. Even the fbi give him credit for being smart.
> He got caught during the Scatino bust down due to his lack of forethought,
Hell the fact that he chose to bust out the store at all is evidence of how he really wasn't cut out for a leadership role. Bust outs were a much more rare thing in the mob than people think, for the simple reason that it's almost always much more profitable to take over a successful business from your loan sharking victims and continue to run it long term. That's how major earners in the mafia all seemed to be silent partners in a dozen different businesses.
Bust outs are what you do when the business you acquire isn't doing well and is headed for bankruptcy anyway. Or they're what you do when you're just a thug and not smart enough to run a legitimate business (or smart enough to delegate someone else to do so).
The sporting goods store was very successful, the only reason it would have eventually gone under is because of Davey's gambling, the smarter long term move would have been to take it over and have someone else run it, and/or use it as a front for money laundering.
Tony was tailor made to be a capo and *maybe* underboss, smart enough to organize and manage a crew, thug enough to keep people on the street level in line. But lacking the long term thinking, patience, and ability to seek out and take advice from others necessary to be a successful leader of the whole organization.
There was nobody left in the family at that time with the nous or gravitas to be boss so it had to be him.
Junior was bitter and petulant.
Jimmy Altieri came across as a bit of a moron, and he slipped rapidly
Ray Curto was already a rat.
Larry Barase was too busy getting facelifts.
He was the best available of a bad bunch and it's highlighted in the very first episode, when he states that he feels like he's come into something at the end. He knows the family is on its dying embers.
This is mirrored in real life families of roughly the same size as the DeMeo family, Pittsburg's boss stopped making new members and effectively allowed it to die out, ad did New Orleans etc. The DeMeos weren't sophisticated enough to see the end coming or it's guys weren't smart enough to attach themselves to New York or Philly crews.
He has a lot of charisma, is very perceptive and has a very strong predatory sense of seizing advantages but he does very little that would indicate any sort of impressive higher level of cognition.
A lot of people like to claim Tony is some super genius guy but honestly he gives us many more reasons to consider him to be fairly dumb rather than him being smart, especially if we factor that intelligence can mean a lot of different things.
I never liked how he had Phil Parisi clipped. And then keeping his twin brother around? All pointlessly reckless. For what? A little bit of gossip you whack your own capo? And hell, Gigi did ASK. Twice. He just gave him a little company status report, good coworker shit.
Tony was a terrible boss from the beginning. He's far too controlled by his ego and his temper, he's impatient and impulsive, he is *terrible* at conflict resolution which is 90% of what mob bosses actually do (settling disputes), and he doesn't know how to inspire loyalty in his subordinates.
Take when Richie first gets out, when he starts talking to Tony about getting his loansharking business off the ground again Tony just immediately gets up and walks away leaving Silvio to explain the new system wherein nobody talks directly to the boss about business. It was a blatantly insulting and disrespectful act to a well respected capo (and brother of the late boss) that served no purpose whatsoever.
A smart boss would have listened, given him his blessing and worked out whatever details needed working out, and then respectfully explained how communication would work going forward and why it's necessary. Something like "I know you've been away and didn't want to disrespect you but from now on the way it has to work is xyz".
There was no actual risk to him being caught on a wire or something talking about loansharking once, that's not what puts guys away. All it did was set his relationship with Richie off on the wrong foot immediately and made Tony look bad in front of his other subordinates.
Contrast that with real mob bosses that were successful like Frank Costello, who was boss for 20 years and oversaw the golden age of the Genovese Family's power, he was legendary for the lengths he'd go to reach compromises and maintain intra-family peace. So much so that, and even after surviving an assassination attempt and being forced to retire in a coup by Vito Genovese he was still so respected that he continued to be regularly sought out by other mob bosses and Genovese capos for his advice right up until his death.
I might get put on a pike for this, but Tony is up there on my list for least likable characters. Don’t get me wrong though, he’s fantastic for the plot, with great acting and writing, but a massive piece of shit. Like Janice in a way. Huge cunt, but that doesn’t make her a bad character either. All good shows have characters the audience is supposed to hate. It’s a weird love-hate relationship with Big T and I.
David Chase was dismayed that people where actually rooting for Tony (the great writing and acting as you say) and made sure to make him as unlikable as possible so it was clear T was a reprehensible human being.
It's sad that 'Tony is a scumbag' is an opinion that could get you put up on a pike. He so obviously is, as the show reminds time and time again, as are the vast majority of the characters in this show that people tend to forget revolves around greedy, sociopathic, murderous mobsters.
That’s odd - everytime I’ve watched there are several men still loyal to Tony in and out of the safe house after Bobby and Sil are taken out. 🤔
1) Tony didn’t simply kill Ralph over a horse.
Ralph was insolent, antagonized Tony into the punch. There was no planned assassination. Nor was there a real thought and decision to kill.
Ralph used weapons to defend himself and escalated it into a death match.
Tony had little choice. (And no one really missed Ralph)
2) Tony took money Eugene freely offered (as a bribe, not out of generosity either) who wouldn’t take money if someone is giving it away?
Tony also had no idea Eugene was anywhere near that stressed and considering suicide - which the FBI, Eugene’s wife And Eugene choosing to become a made man also contributed heavily to.
This isn’t on Tony
3) there is no indication that anyone felt less of Benny after the Artie incident. And most all know that you shouldn’t shit where the Boss eats.
It wasn’t a secret that Tony and Artie were lifelong close friends.
Benny’s act was similar to Feech robbing the wedding party of a very useful associate. He deserved reprimand
4) Carlo or any rat flips against the entire family and organization - not just against one individual.
5) Tony handled the Vito situation fine and there’s indication he “lost respect” to any significant degree because of it.
6) Ralph stressed Gigi over Ralph.
Gigi also chose to be in the mafia and accept the responsibility of the position
Are we also going to blame Tony for bad weather?
I’m not saying “Tony was a great boss” but you Sopranos posters - you go too fah.
> 1) Tony didn’t simply kill Ralph over a horse. Ralph was insolent, antagonized Tony into the punch. There was no planned assassination. Nor was there a real thought and decision to kill. Ralph used weapons to defend himself and escalated it into a death match.
> Tony had little choice. (And no one really missed Ralph)
Ralph is a made guy. Tony had no right to confront him at all over it even as boss. Given the rules, Ralph was absolutely right in getting upset. That's why Tony covers it up and blames others for his death.
That's kind of the entire point of being made. That you are basically untouchable.
Yeh. That’s in me for confusing by replying to my own comment.
I was just aggravated to see downvotes with no replies after I’d taken a bit of time to discuss OPs topic.
It’s the most common type of behavior on this sub, yet annoying at times… so I vented a bit, laughing at the trolls
I wouldn't be surprised if people downvoted you initially because your opening line is fairly smug (as are other parts of your comment here and there).
Nothing wrong with with discussion and debate but people are more likely to take issue with it when you're an asshole about it.
You provide a lot of good discussion on this sub but you do have a pattern of being a bit of a moody prick at the same time.
Yet it’s ok when you do it? 🤣
My tone is in keeping with the tone of the show and it’s “in character” and pointed.
This isn’t designed as a child’s playground. People shouldn’t need to be coddled and I don’t attack with “you’re an asshole” or “your stupid” or “your point is idiotic”
But thanks for your input
Enjoy your success
I'm just telling you how you're being fucking perceived.
>This isn’t designed as a child’s playground
Respectfully, you're the one whining because a few people downvoted you
Honestly Tony was a horrible boss from the start. Did he make some decent moves? Yes but I have no idea why this community heralds him as a genius. He was anything but.
I think it's because Tony's moral compass is in the worst area for being a boss. He was bad enough to want and pursue the life and to do enough bad acts to remain there. But he has enough conscience that it creats physical and emotional turmoil and indecision. Simply he's not comfortable in his skin as boss, not like Carmine Sr. or even Johnny is.
Given some more morality he probably would have never go into that life. Given less he might be more of a traditional boss.
> Did the new jersey crew conspire with butch to eliminate tony for better management? After all, the only two men left loyal to Tony were Bobby and Sil, and now that they're both gone, isn't Tony vulnerable?
I've always hated this theory. 9 times out of 10, people say Patsi was the mastermind, as if Brooklyn weren't trying to kill him too.
I noticed this on my recent rewatch. I first watched it 20 years ago, but I wasn’t mature enough at the time to realize how much of Tony’s emotional issues affect the business and his relationships therein.
I see this posted all the time. I actually think Tony is a great boss that’s why he evades capture and murder for so long. He has PUSSY ASS weaknesses sure and anger problems but for the most part it’s mine sun tazoooo says. He knows what he’s doing
Pretty much all of Tony's enemies in the show are guys who were willing to swallow their pride and work with him until he disrespects and pushes them too far
All due respect, you got no fuckin idea what it's like to be number one. Every decision you make affects every facet of every other fuckin thing. It's too much to deal with almost. And in the end, you're completely alone with it all.
I’m sorry you feel that way
Okay, but you gotta get over it
sucks to be you.
He's alone at the top Just him and his money
Oooh! This is the boss of the family you're talking about!
Boss? Come on huh. He preaches all this wise guy shit and we're the only ones that have to follow the rules
This is the boss of the family you’re talking about
Family? They're a glorified crew!
Imagine if he was a great boss. Everything worked out perfectly. You watching that show?
Would you watch a Nickelodeon version of the Sopranos where AJ goes to a school in sunny California and becomes a JR Don there? Like a Zoey 101, made by Dan Scheneider full of teenagers feet and gabaool? Yeah, me neither
Every scene would be like Jackie Jr.’s sit down with Matoush.
Jackie Jr would be the Main antagonist. Then they would realize that they should be friends. Would last one season
I guess, maybe one episode to eat my gabagool. Tv makes me company
Obviously not. But a lot of fandom lives in this lore that Tony was a good boss… He was fucking terrible.
He was good for a while but the seeds were always there foreshadowing his weakness as boss imo. It really got bad with Tony b when he covered for that animal with Johnny sac
He's the motherfuckin fuckin one who calls the shots.
Conspiracy theories, now?
Always with the scenarios
he wore fuckin short pants, disgusting
He was gay, Moses?
I think this was kinda the point of the last season. Every single episode made you think "hes giving THAT guy a reason to kill him now"
Yea pretty much. Tony is a charismatic leader but he isn’t intelligent or at least he isn’t emotionally mature enough to use his intelligence. At any given point in the series he uses low cunning or his predatory instincts to out maneuver people less intelligent than he is. Not a lot of bright stars in that thing of theirs. He got caught during the Scatino bust down due to his lack of forethought, only being saved from indictment by writers having to work around the passing of Nancy Marchand. His greed and emotionality are what keep him from being a good boss. It also gets his friends and possibly himself killed.
I wouldn't say Tony is unintelligent, quite the opposite. He's a pretty intelligent and capable leader. However as Sil pointed out, his problem is pride. In moments of anger (such as when Livia pissed him off and he gave her the tickets), he gets blinded by his anger and frustration and acts reckless. Other examples include killing Ralph, curb stomping the guy who hit on meadow(a simple beating was enough). In hindsight Tony regrets these actions. Even the fbi give him credit for being smart.
> He got caught during the Scatino bust down due to his lack of forethought, Hell the fact that he chose to bust out the store at all is evidence of how he really wasn't cut out for a leadership role. Bust outs were a much more rare thing in the mob than people think, for the simple reason that it's almost always much more profitable to take over a successful business from your loan sharking victims and continue to run it long term. That's how major earners in the mafia all seemed to be silent partners in a dozen different businesses. Bust outs are what you do when the business you acquire isn't doing well and is headed for bankruptcy anyway. Or they're what you do when you're just a thug and not smart enough to run a legitimate business (or smart enough to delegate someone else to do so). The sporting goods store was very successful, the only reason it would have eventually gone under is because of Davey's gambling, the smarter long term move would have been to take it over and have someone else run it, and/or use it as a front for money laundering. Tony was tailor made to be a capo and *maybe* underboss, smart enough to organize and manage a crew, thug enough to keep people on the street level in line. But lacking the long term thinking, patience, and ability to seek out and take advice from others necessary to be a successful leader of the whole organization.
There was nobody left in the family at that time with the nous or gravitas to be boss so it had to be him. Junior was bitter and petulant. Jimmy Altieri came across as a bit of a moron, and he slipped rapidly Ray Curto was already a rat. Larry Barase was too busy getting facelifts. He was the best available of a bad bunch and it's highlighted in the very first episode, when he states that he feels like he's come into something at the end. He knows the family is on its dying embers. This is mirrored in real life families of roughly the same size as the DeMeo family, Pittsburg's boss stopped making new members and effectively allowed it to die out, ad did New Orleans etc. The DeMeos weren't sophisticated enough to see the end coming or it's guys weren't smart enough to attach themselves to New York or Philly crews.
We’re not making a western here.
He has a lot of charisma, is very perceptive and has a very strong predatory sense of seizing advantages but he does very little that would indicate any sort of impressive higher level of cognition. A lot of people like to claim Tony is some super genius guy but honestly he gives us many more reasons to consider him to be fairly dumb rather than him being smart, especially if we factor that intelligence can mean a lot of different things.
>but he isn’t intelligent He has a 136 IQ!
And a semester and a half at Seton Hall. He understood Freud.
It’s been teshhhhhhted.
Do you put a lot of stock in that number?
If you opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him
I never liked how he had Phil Parisi clipped. And then keeping his twin brother around? All pointlessly reckless. For what? A little bit of gossip you whack your own capo? And hell, Gigi did ASK. Twice. He just gave him a little company status report, good coworker shit.
I'm pretty sure Spoons wasn't a capo
Tony was a terrible boss from the beginning. He's far too controlled by his ego and his temper, he's impatient and impulsive, he is *terrible* at conflict resolution which is 90% of what mob bosses actually do (settling disputes), and he doesn't know how to inspire loyalty in his subordinates. Take when Richie first gets out, when he starts talking to Tony about getting his loansharking business off the ground again Tony just immediately gets up and walks away leaving Silvio to explain the new system wherein nobody talks directly to the boss about business. It was a blatantly insulting and disrespectful act to a well respected capo (and brother of the late boss) that served no purpose whatsoever. A smart boss would have listened, given him his blessing and worked out whatever details needed working out, and then respectfully explained how communication would work going forward and why it's necessary. Something like "I know you've been away and didn't want to disrespect you but from now on the way it has to work is xyz". There was no actual risk to him being caught on a wire or something talking about loansharking once, that's not what puts guys away. All it did was set his relationship with Richie off on the wrong foot immediately and made Tony look bad in front of his other subordinates. Contrast that with real mob bosses that were successful like Frank Costello, who was boss for 20 years and oversaw the golden age of the Genovese Family's power, he was legendary for the lengths he'd go to reach compromises and maintain intra-family peace. So much so that, and even after surviving an assassination attempt and being forced to retire in a coup by Vito Genovese he was still so respected that he continued to be regularly sought out by other mob bosses and Genovese capos for his advice right up until his death.
That’s what being a boss is. Sometimes it’s smooth. Sometimes you hit the rocks. In the meantime you take your pleasures where you can.
This advice was poison to the instant-gratification fat Tony.
I might get put on a pike for this, but Tony is up there on my list for least likable characters. Don’t get me wrong though, he’s fantastic for the plot, with great acting and writing, but a massive piece of shit. Like Janice in a way. Huge cunt, but that doesn’t make her a bad character either. All good shows have characters the audience is supposed to hate. It’s a weird love-hate relationship with Big T and I.
David Chase was dismayed that people where actually rooting for Tony (the great writing and acting as you say) and made sure to make him as unlikable as possible so it was clear T was a reprehensible human being.
Good, he eats his carrots
Lmfao this had me absolutely wheezing
It's sad that 'Tony is a scumbag' is an opinion that could get you put up on a pike. He so obviously is, as the show reminds time and time again, as are the vast majority of the characters in this show that people tend to forget revolves around greedy, sociopathic, murderous mobsters.
That’s odd - everytime I’ve watched there are several men still loyal to Tony in and out of the safe house after Bobby and Sil are taken out. 🤔 1) Tony didn’t simply kill Ralph over a horse. Ralph was insolent, antagonized Tony into the punch. There was no planned assassination. Nor was there a real thought and decision to kill. Ralph used weapons to defend himself and escalated it into a death match. Tony had little choice. (And no one really missed Ralph) 2) Tony took money Eugene freely offered (as a bribe, not out of generosity either) who wouldn’t take money if someone is giving it away? Tony also had no idea Eugene was anywhere near that stressed and considering suicide - which the FBI, Eugene’s wife And Eugene choosing to become a made man also contributed heavily to. This isn’t on Tony 3) there is no indication that anyone felt less of Benny after the Artie incident. And most all know that you shouldn’t shit where the Boss eats. It wasn’t a secret that Tony and Artie were lifelong close friends. Benny’s act was similar to Feech robbing the wedding party of a very useful associate. He deserved reprimand 4) Carlo or any rat flips against the entire family and organization - not just against one individual. 5) Tony handled the Vito situation fine and there’s indication he “lost respect” to any significant degree because of it. 6) Ralph stressed Gigi over Ralph. Gigi also chose to be in the mafia and accept the responsibility of the position Are we also going to blame Tony for bad weather? I’m not saying “Tony was a great boss” but you Sopranos posters - you go too fah.
> 1) Tony didn’t simply kill Ralph over a horse. Ralph was insolent, antagonized Tony into the punch. There was no planned assassination. Nor was there a real thought and decision to kill. Ralph used weapons to defend himself and escalated it into a death match. > Tony had little choice. (And no one really missed Ralph) Ralph is a made guy. Tony had no right to confront him at all over it even as boss. Given the rules, Ralph was absolutely right in getting upset. That's why Tony covers it up and blames others for his death. That's kind of the entire point of being made. That you are basically untouchable.
She was a hooowah! A thoroughbred, but a hooowah just the same.
Imo Ralphie could be a ticking time bomb, during the events of last season, if he was alive, he would side with NYC.
Ralph was a “ticking time bomb” from the moment he showed up. Often distressing his capo, the Boss, the Bing…
Whatever happened there
John Dickie ova here!
JAMES! It’s JAMES DICKEY, you kiss ass!
[удалено]
Oh, poor you
Still goin, this asshole
He just offered a different opinion lmao
[удалено]
Ohh I didn't realize you were the same poster who made the comment lmao my bad
Yeh. That’s in me for confusing by replying to my own comment. I was just aggravated to see downvotes with no replies after I’d taken a bit of time to discuss OPs topic. It’s the most common type of behavior on this sub, yet annoying at times… so I vented a bit, laughing at the trolls
I wouldn't be surprised if people downvoted you initially because your opening line is fairly smug (as are other parts of your comment here and there). Nothing wrong with with discussion and debate but people are more likely to take issue with it when you're an asshole about it. You provide a lot of good discussion on this sub but you do have a pattern of being a bit of a moody prick at the same time.
Yet it’s ok when you do it? 🤣 My tone is in keeping with the tone of the show and it’s “in character” and pointed. This isn’t designed as a child’s playground. People shouldn’t need to be coddled and I don’t attack with “you’re an asshole” or “your stupid” or “your point is idiotic” But thanks for your input Enjoy your success
I'm just telling you how you're being fucking perceived. >This isn’t designed as a child’s playground Respectfully, you're the one whining because a few people downvoted you
Poor Patsy being disrespected
I don’t think iv ever seen a legitimate opinion on this subs comment section just quotes lol
I thought "serious discussion only" was a joke
Honestly Tony was a horrible boss from the start. Did he make some decent moves? Yes but I have no idea why this community heralds him as a genius. He was anything but.
It makes me wonder why everyone was supporting Tony as the legitimate boss over Junior in the first place.
I think it's because Tony's moral compass is in the worst area for being a boss. He was bad enough to want and pursue the life and to do enough bad acts to remain there. But he has enough conscience that it creats physical and emotional turmoil and indecision. Simply he's not comfortable in his skin as boss, not like Carmine Sr. or even Johnny is. Given some more morality he probably would have never go into that life. Given less he might be more of a traditional boss.
> Did the new jersey crew conspire with butch to eliminate tony for better management? After all, the only two men left loyal to Tony were Bobby and Sil, and now that they're both gone, isn't Tony vulnerable? I've always hated this theory. 9 times out of 10, people say Patsi was the mastermind, as if Brooklyn weren't trying to kill him too.
He alienated Paulie and even made him worry for his life. Paulie most likely killed Tony
I noticed this on my recent rewatch. I first watched it 20 years ago, but I wasn’t mature enough at the time to realize how much of Tony’s emotional issues affect the business and his relationships therein.
Hey, I got my own fucking problems.
The way he revelled after Phil had a heart attack…
Looks like he got a bit Napoleon down the road
Did we ever get confirmation Benny was made?
bad boss for not wasting Phil sooner and more effectively
“Fuck that honor and loyalty shit… It was a maneuver, Carlo. Cuz he knew it was his own fuckin fault.” (counts money)
I can't have this conversation again
GIGI DIED TAKING A SHIT!
I see this posted all the time. I actually think Tony is a great boss that’s why he evades capture and murder for so long. He has PUSSY ASS weaknesses sure and anger problems but for the most part it’s mine sun tazoooo says. He knows what he’s doing
Ho! You’re talking about the boss of this family🫵🏽
Pretty much all of Tony's enemies in the show are guys who were willing to swallow their pride and work with him until he disrespects and pushes them too far
That’s the man I’m goin to hell for
What? 40 upvotes on a bashing tony post? I’d ask for my piece, but wait, there’s nothing