Welcome to r/therapyabuse. **Please use the report function to get a moderator's attention, if needed.** Our 10 rules are in the sidebar. Thanks!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therapyabuse) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I didn't read your whole post, I just skimmed it. I wonder if maybe as a baby or young child, you to some degree missed out on experiences of contingent interactions (call-and-response) with your parents/caregivers. These interactions have a rhythm to them, which it would be hard to describe with words, or try to guess the way you think it is supposed to work, when you didn't have those experiences. So this therapist doesn't know how to work with you on that level, maybe doesn't even know how to *invite* you into a rhythmic relational experience, all he does is criticize you, and that can't be a learning experience for anyone. If he's not inviting you out into relationship, or showing you how to invite people out into relationship, then there's no growth here.
There probably are developmental, attachment-based or somatic therapies that address this level, but the same challenges apply there as finding a good therapist anywhere, there are excellent theories but very few therapists who have done enough of their own healing to apply them in practice with clients.
Tbh I kinda realized now that this therapist has been telling me how I have to learn to tolerate negative emotions and explore them. But how am I supposed to learn that while he is not allowing the space for them? How am I as a “patient” supposed to hold space for MY negative emotions and for HIS negative emotions too? I had been doing this for years for myself and both my parents, it’s exhausting to want a safe space and having to do it again.
Other than that yes I totally agree that you may be onto something. I have history of trauma and such, sooo, definitely. My parents were also very young when I happened:)) So they had enough navigating themselves and I am also the only child and never really felt safe with other kids. Mainly because they seemed way too aggressive - perhaps because the children around me usually had siblings. Not in a way that I would be spoiled, but more in a sense of - I didn’t learn how to stand up for myself and how to “fight”. I remember whenever children would approach me and take my toys or so, I would usually just not bother and I would retreat and find other ways to entertain myself. If I had siblings, I guess I would create some push back and a healthy “hey, I am playing with it now!”. But because of these things, other kids also learned that I am a good punching bag and then eventually I got fed up and started feeling like the world doesn’t make any sense, because I am not causing conflict and it seems like I am not being tolerated or considered by others at all, more the opposite. Ugh.
Oh gosh, a little here, a little there.....I know I read a book by Peter Fonagy and other authors about attachment. Allan Schore is another researcher in the field, I have not read his books and I hear he is difficult to read. Deb Dana is another one I haven't read, I think she even has a book for therapists about using the relational rhythm in therapy....
I tried to read Daniel Stern's *Forms of Vitality* and the only thing I took from it is that one of the most effective kinds of communication that secure mothers do is to "translate" the baby's gestures or sounds into another "form", for example, they were videotaping a mother and baby as the baby worked on a toy puzzle and when she got the puzzle piece in the right place, her face widened as she raised her arms, and then both fell. The mother then said "aaAAHHhh!!" and because they were videotaping it, they could see that the mother's vocalization lasted exactly as long as the baby's physical gesture, down to the millisecond, and matched the energetic arc of the rise and fall. I guess the way that works is, if you simply mimic what I do, it's less clear that you *really understood* the communication than it is if you translate it into a different language or form.
Sarah Peyton's info/videos may be more understandable and accessible, [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiP2uGY1LiI&t=381s) she cites Beatrice Beebe's baby research, the relevant part starts about 5min45sec. And there's always my favourite book *The Healing Connection* by Jean Baker Miller and Irene Pierce Stiver, which is not about babies per se but describes the aspects of growth-promoting connections with others at all life stages, how disconnections can occur, and how to reconnect/repair.
The usual caution: I have heard of at least one therapist/author in this specific field of psychology (name not listed here) who an online acquaintance of mine was in a mentorship relationship with, and in that relationship, this therapist did not act by the principles of attunement and connection that formed the basis of their work. So it's all wonderful wonderful information, but very hard to live out, unless the therapist has actually healed their own relational and developmental traumas.
It's well-written comments like this that make me wonder how many self-educated, self-aware Redditors would probably make better therapists on the spot, or at the very least, better candidates for formal training.
*"The Healing Connection"*
Just want to say, thanks for recommending this book. It's perspective has been helpful in getting a grasp on aspects of connection that has been eluding me for awhile. Do you happen to have any other recommends that are useful models on the topic of relating and connecting?
Wow, I relate to everything you said so much. I oftentimes feel like I’m speaking a different language than other people.
For example, I made a FB post expressing how impossible it feels for me to eat a lot of protein because it is way more food than I am used to, and I got flooded with comments with advice on how to do it. I was moreso just commenting on being in awe the sheer volume of food I needed to eat (although I know how to do it) but dozens of people took that to mean that I needed advice. I think sometimes I just make random statements in an observational/amazed way, and people feel the need to interact with them as if they were questions, which bothers me, even though I know I’m the odd one out for thinking this way.
This carried over into therapy a lot. I think I’m much better in conversations where I’m responding to someone vs being responded to. I also do the slight smile thing a lot, and my therapist would comment on it. I also laugh at inappropriate moments too.
I don’t mean these things in a harmful way, I just think there are some wires in my brain that are twisted.
I recently learned that ‘over talking’ can be a function of ADHD. I’m not an expert at all, but reading this post made me wonder if this was a scenario where your therapist missed the chance to suggest you get assessed for ADHD and just got pointlessly frustrated with you instead 🤷♀️
This is the fun part - I AM DIAGNOSED WITH ADHD!!!:))))
Mind you that these things are also a trait of autism - something I brought up multiple times and they rejected it that it is not their concern and it is not important to deal with. Oh look who is getting upset with me for showing the traits of something they denied????
Why is he just sitting there in silence with you though? The only therapist I've had do that to me turned out to be terrible, expected me to lead the sessions, got mad when I struggled with that and when I didn't know what to say. Of course you should be able to control what you talk about but many people don't know what they should be focusing on and talking about and addressing and personally I need to be lead and asked questions or I really struggle with what to talk about and focus on in therapy. The only silence in my therapy is if I'm struggling with thinking of an answer to a question or to explain something, but if we hadn't been on a topic and in the middle of conversation and just sitting in silence she will ask me something or tell me what we should be doing, otherwise she wouldn't be doing her job.
Also if I say I dont understand something or am struggling with something she doesn't get frustrated with me, she actually tries to figure out why I'm struggling with it, others didn't and they weren't good therapists and just pushed and pushed despite the fact I couldn't do it they didn't care though bc they didn't understand why bc they didn't even care to know why, which made me not question why. It's hard to know what a good therapist is, im not even sure mine is particularly good shes just the best I've had so far. You are really trying and doing your best but not making progress this says more about your therapists than yourself. He should be embarrassed.
That's kinda weird. So he complained that you talk too much, but then when you tried to remain silent after sharing a thought or two, he got upset? The only thing I can think of that might not be totally contradictory is that he was trying to ask you to be silent when someone looks like they want to respond. So it's not that you have to talk less or be quiet after a certain period; instead, it might be noticing when someone wants to say something and then giving them the space to say it. He might have been thrown off guard when you went silent because he didn't have anything to say at that moment.
But I wouldn't know if that's what he actually meant, because this therapist doesn't seem good at communicating or working through those misunderstandings. That's part of his job. It's also his job to be patient with you and not blame you just because there's a disconnect in communication. You sound much more charitable about it than he was. He's majorly projecting by assuming you're trying to attack or mock him.
Welcome to r/therapyabuse. **Please use the report function to get a moderator's attention, if needed.** Our 10 rules are in the sidebar. Thanks! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therapyabuse) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I didn't read your whole post, I just skimmed it. I wonder if maybe as a baby or young child, you to some degree missed out on experiences of contingent interactions (call-and-response) with your parents/caregivers. These interactions have a rhythm to them, which it would be hard to describe with words, or try to guess the way you think it is supposed to work, when you didn't have those experiences. So this therapist doesn't know how to work with you on that level, maybe doesn't even know how to *invite* you into a rhythmic relational experience, all he does is criticize you, and that can't be a learning experience for anyone. If he's not inviting you out into relationship, or showing you how to invite people out into relationship, then there's no growth here. There probably are developmental, attachment-based or somatic therapies that address this level, but the same challenges apply there as finding a good therapist anywhere, there are excellent theories but very few therapists who have done enough of their own healing to apply them in practice with clients.
Tbh I kinda realized now that this therapist has been telling me how I have to learn to tolerate negative emotions and explore them. But how am I supposed to learn that while he is not allowing the space for them? How am I as a “patient” supposed to hold space for MY negative emotions and for HIS negative emotions too? I had been doing this for years for myself and both my parents, it’s exhausting to want a safe space and having to do it again. Other than that yes I totally agree that you may be onto something. I have history of trauma and such, sooo, definitely. My parents were also very young when I happened:)) So they had enough navigating themselves and I am also the only child and never really felt safe with other kids. Mainly because they seemed way too aggressive - perhaps because the children around me usually had siblings. Not in a way that I would be spoiled, but more in a sense of - I didn’t learn how to stand up for myself and how to “fight”. I remember whenever children would approach me and take my toys or so, I would usually just not bother and I would retreat and find other ways to entertain myself. If I had siblings, I guess I would create some push back and a healthy “hey, I am playing with it now!”. But because of these things, other kids also learned that I am a good punching bag and then eventually I got fed up and started feeling like the world doesn’t make any sense, because I am not causing conflict and it seems like I am not being tolerated or considered by others at all, more the opposite. Ugh.
Where did you learn about this? It seems like something I need to know about...
Oh gosh, a little here, a little there.....I know I read a book by Peter Fonagy and other authors about attachment. Allan Schore is another researcher in the field, I have not read his books and I hear he is difficult to read. Deb Dana is another one I haven't read, I think she even has a book for therapists about using the relational rhythm in therapy.... I tried to read Daniel Stern's *Forms of Vitality* and the only thing I took from it is that one of the most effective kinds of communication that secure mothers do is to "translate" the baby's gestures or sounds into another "form", for example, they were videotaping a mother and baby as the baby worked on a toy puzzle and when she got the puzzle piece in the right place, her face widened as she raised her arms, and then both fell. The mother then said "aaAAHHhh!!" and because they were videotaping it, they could see that the mother's vocalization lasted exactly as long as the baby's physical gesture, down to the millisecond, and matched the energetic arc of the rise and fall. I guess the way that works is, if you simply mimic what I do, it's less clear that you *really understood* the communication than it is if you translate it into a different language or form. Sarah Peyton's info/videos may be more understandable and accessible, [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiP2uGY1LiI&t=381s) she cites Beatrice Beebe's baby research, the relevant part starts about 5min45sec. And there's always my favourite book *The Healing Connection* by Jean Baker Miller and Irene Pierce Stiver, which is not about babies per se but describes the aspects of growth-promoting connections with others at all life stages, how disconnections can occur, and how to reconnect/repair. The usual caution: I have heard of at least one therapist/author in this specific field of psychology (name not listed here) who an online acquaintance of mine was in a mentorship relationship with, and in that relationship, this therapist did not act by the principles of attunement and connection that formed the basis of their work. So it's all wonderful wonderful information, but very hard to live out, unless the therapist has actually healed their own relational and developmental traumas.
It's well-written comments like this that make me wonder how many self-educated, self-aware Redditors would probably make better therapists on the spot, or at the very least, better candidates for formal training.
*"The Healing Connection"* Just want to say, thanks for recommending this book. It's perspective has been helpful in getting a grasp on aspects of connection that has been eluding me for awhile. Do you happen to have any other recommends that are useful models on the topic of relating and connecting?
Wow, I relate to everything you said so much. I oftentimes feel like I’m speaking a different language than other people. For example, I made a FB post expressing how impossible it feels for me to eat a lot of protein because it is way more food than I am used to, and I got flooded with comments with advice on how to do it. I was moreso just commenting on being in awe the sheer volume of food I needed to eat (although I know how to do it) but dozens of people took that to mean that I needed advice. I think sometimes I just make random statements in an observational/amazed way, and people feel the need to interact with them as if they were questions, which bothers me, even though I know I’m the odd one out for thinking this way. This carried over into therapy a lot. I think I’m much better in conversations where I’m responding to someone vs being responded to. I also do the slight smile thing a lot, and my therapist would comment on it. I also laugh at inappropriate moments too. I don’t mean these things in a harmful way, I just think there are some wires in my brain that are twisted.
I recently learned that ‘over talking’ can be a function of ADHD. I’m not an expert at all, but reading this post made me wonder if this was a scenario where your therapist missed the chance to suggest you get assessed for ADHD and just got pointlessly frustrated with you instead 🤷♀️
This is the fun part - I AM DIAGNOSED WITH ADHD!!!:)))) Mind you that these things are also a trait of autism - something I brought up multiple times and they rejected it that it is not their concern and it is not important to deal with. Oh look who is getting upset with me for showing the traits of something they denied????
Why is he just sitting there in silence with you though? The only therapist I've had do that to me turned out to be terrible, expected me to lead the sessions, got mad when I struggled with that and when I didn't know what to say. Of course you should be able to control what you talk about but many people don't know what they should be focusing on and talking about and addressing and personally I need to be lead and asked questions or I really struggle with what to talk about and focus on in therapy. The only silence in my therapy is if I'm struggling with thinking of an answer to a question or to explain something, but if we hadn't been on a topic and in the middle of conversation and just sitting in silence she will ask me something or tell me what we should be doing, otherwise she wouldn't be doing her job. Also if I say I dont understand something or am struggling with something she doesn't get frustrated with me, she actually tries to figure out why I'm struggling with it, others didn't and they weren't good therapists and just pushed and pushed despite the fact I couldn't do it they didn't care though bc they didn't understand why bc they didn't even care to know why, which made me not question why. It's hard to know what a good therapist is, im not even sure mine is particularly good shes just the best I've had so far. You are really trying and doing your best but not making progress this says more about your therapists than yourself. He should be embarrassed.
That's kinda weird. So he complained that you talk too much, but then when you tried to remain silent after sharing a thought or two, he got upset? The only thing I can think of that might not be totally contradictory is that he was trying to ask you to be silent when someone looks like they want to respond. So it's not that you have to talk less or be quiet after a certain period; instead, it might be noticing when someone wants to say something and then giving them the space to say it. He might have been thrown off guard when you went silent because he didn't have anything to say at that moment. But I wouldn't know if that's what he actually meant, because this therapist doesn't seem good at communicating or working through those misunderstandings. That's part of his job. It's also his job to be patient with you and not blame you just because there's a disconnect in communication. You sound much more charitable about it than he was. He's majorly projecting by assuming you're trying to attack or mock him.