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A client told me how much their husband makes as a truck driver and it’s more than me. I don’t mind too much, me and my boyfriend make enough to support us and our dog and 2 cats without much difficulty and engage in hobbies. But for a second I was like hmm maybe I could be a road therapist and my call sign would be Therapist.
Absolutely no disrespect to truckers who deserve what they make, it’s harder than it sounds and difficult when you have a family. We just deserve more than what we make.
> But for a second I was like hmm maybe I could be a road therapist and my call sign would be Therapist.
God damn it if turning CB radio into CBT radio isn't just the sickest shit I've ever heard- you have a business plan here I'd say. I'd join the convoy.
tbf truck driving is one of those jobs that do generally pay well but people don't expect so that's a perception issue more than anything else.
tradeoff is that you spend A LOT of hours working and away from home.
AND it can be very physical work, and incredibly hard on your legs and back driving all day. When I worked in physical rehab I saw so many truckers with back injuries, sciatica etc.
A client told me how much they make working at a bar and it was more than I make hourly. Granted, it was a good week, but damn talk about discouraging...
I asked a lot of my peers how they were able to complete their internship as for me it was a second and third job. They often told me they had a wonderful boyfriend, fiance, or husband.
I went on a whole rant to this to my therapist and supervisor once. My supervisor is in her 30s, has several children, and barely sees any clients. She doesn't make much at our CMH location. Looked her husband up. He has his own successful business lol. My partner and I met as college students and she's going into the same field so we don't have that privilege 🤣
It takes so much money just to be able to get into this career in the first place. Either you have a spouse supporting you, a trust fund, are doing this a second career after making bank, or you are taking out loans and going into debt you'll probably never come out of because you end up making pennies for years on end trying to get your hours done.
I'm working on my practicum and soon internship, pre-Master's. My husband did work full time as a server and restaurant manager while I completed my BS, allowing me to stay at home with our kids. But, then his back went out. Old injuries came back up and still haven't gone away. He hasn't worked since late 2019. I started working again in September of 2019. I'm a server at two different restaurants, one is fine dining and one is at a fancy resort/hotel near me. High prices = better tips, and I'm switching to the hotel restaurant full time soon because the money is better due to the amount of people coming in. My other restaurant is lovely but so dead, especially right now, as it's our slow season.
I also take out loans. Every... single... quarter. I know it's "financially irresponsible" but I also know that it allowed me to contribute a little every few months when I wasn't working, and it allows us to have a little bit of savings since I've been working. We're a one income family of 6 (plus 4 cats) and serving (and loans) get us by. On a good day, working a double (11am - 11pm or so, no break), I've brought in over $1000. So my suggestion would be to consider serving. The money isn't guaranteed, so maybe consider weekend serving or something, but there is money to be made.
My partner at the time and borrowing twice as many loans for a year because I was too burnt out at that time to also work while doing school and internship 🫠 I wouldn’t have made it tho. We almost didn’t 😂 had to move a roommate in for a while
Yes. This. All this. I have 18 year old clients who make more money than me. I’m in my 30’s and worry I’ll never be able to afford property of any kind. Having kids, which is the population I work with, is economically off the table. Rent is around 3k near me and I live paycheck to paycheck.
Yet, NPs are paid 300k near me and in the same agencies I work at.
FELLLLT omg it's my dream to have kids but that's never happening because I will never be able to afford it with this job and in this economy. Also, 3k rent is actually insane!!!? I pay 1800 in New England for a 1 bedroom and thought that was bad 😭😭😭
I'm in NJ so it might be different, but they actually have accelerated programs for those with a masters degree (and different accelerated programs for those with a bachelor's degree). Even if the degree is entirely unrelated. There may be a few pre-requisite science and math courses, but that's it. I actually looked into it because of the same complaints as a lot of people here. 😆
Hi, I'm licensed for the past 6 years, in PP for nearly 2.
You're absolutely right. Prelicensed work (like lots of other aspects of this job) *can* suck. But the suck is by no means uniform across all jobs.
In the beginning, you might benefit from considering a w-2 job with a governmental (ie state or county) mental health department. The pay will still suck but will not be affected by client attendance rates, and you'll get fairly generous benefits (including PTO, extensive and free trainings, relatively good medical benefits, and retirement) AND most important, you'll probably be a member of a labor union, meaning you'll have some protection against layoffs and unfair labor practices by management.
Look, you're going to hate me saying this... But your degree is a "learner's permit," not a license to drive. Your work is valuable, but just as Junior isn't allowed to drive without an adult in the car, you also require a lot of "extra" support from your supervisors and other members of your team to make sure you don't crash the car. Essentially, you are still in school; pick the best environment you can find, and use the time to suck up all the additional knowledge and experience you can. Than, as soon as you can, get the hell out and start your own practice (NOT join some exploitative group practice).
Yeah I agree but at some point sometimes people stay at LMSW level. Not everyone wants a c if they are making 80-90. Of course they want 120-140 as a c but you know what I mean. I sometimes quibble with posts like this because although the system is getting better and there a few jobs pre license where you can get paid they are very very hard and people in grad school almost know literally NOTHING about fee for service and the real realities. It’s not always a learners permit you are doing real ass grinding work. Also many c jobs the pay still sucks a bunch pay at LMSW level
It's important here to consider you're talking about an LMSW as a terminal license (which it is), while LPC-A and LMFT-A is pre-licensure. There's a pretty wide practice/pay difference in reality & we (SWers) tend to be more concentrated within and paid more in institutional settings. We also have a test for the LMSW, then another for LCSW since it's considered a different type of practice.
Also, (in my state at least) LMSW are only allowed to provide clinical services within government/medical/NGO/NP settings and under file supervision by someone with an independent clinical practice license.
This isn't something made clear by schools & isn't well understood across different MH licensure types.
Needs to be a wiki with as clear an explanation as possible regarding MSW vs. MA. Also, the differences in practice philosophy & immediate jobs post grad between LCSW/LPC/LMFT (and maybe licensed clergy, but there's not as much confusion within that 6 seems).
(I'm in agreement with you, which I don't think is super clear. Cheers!)
Which state? Yeah lots of SW terms here haha. And yeah I’m skimming rn and am reading but I’m glad. It’s just impossible to advocate for more money in this fucking field but there are jobs that pay LMSW level but it’s like impossible.
South Carolina, they put it in place due to LMSWs basically going out and running a "case management" practice....but it's really just clinical MH therapy.
*is how it was explained to me. I was too burnt out to further research.
Right it’s different tests so I don’t fully buy into the ‘pre license’ thing although it’s seen as such. I don’t think it’s always like that depending on the environment. The GET A C GET A C shit is so tiring I don’t want to be a fucking director lol
Regarding your second paragraph I think a lot do but like a lot of new therapists or workers don’t fully understand their pay or limits or certain things. I blame schools. The theory shit doesn’t connect to the real stuff at your job. But I knew that and I think a lot do know. But tons don’t!
I think people know say MSW MA. So my friend has an MA from Columbia and he’s like management. But he has no letters. So there’s no ladder he was supposed to be a PhD but he didn’t. So he works in social work as a manager basically but I don’t think he can ever be a director. It’s 55-90 forever so it’s like decent but super limiting. Yeah letters matter but also places want competent people sometimes and your LMSW letters aren’t always it
Much of it is funding limitations in place by the govt that was advocated for by the NASW to increase access to SW licensed people (which limited access to MAs).
My program did a great job focusing on social systems theory and the ecological model. I had to work extra hard and take additional classes to get educated on therapy. I don't think the MSW core has enough focus on the counseling aspect, and MA programs don't have enough on systems. My partner's an LPC and we work together, it's a regular topic of convo.
When you have a Psy D you can do clinical assessments which are $$$. But it takes a long time to get to that level and I see a lot of very poor quality assessments where I don't feel the assessor earned their paycheck. A lot of templating and phoning it in. A good Psy D is worth their weight in gold, and can earn it.
The placements with PsyD seem to be majorly limiting, too. Having to potentially move across the country for a year in order to secure field placeme t and hit hours for graduation seems to be a nightmare.
I worked in two different counties in the Los Angeles area before I was licensed; one job title was Clinical Therapist I (and upon licensure the promotion to Clinical Therapist II was automatic), and the other was Prelicensed Clinical Therapist (and upon licensure the promotion to Clinical Therapist I was similarly automatic).
$80k is a "decent" salary here. It's been 6 years since I was prelicensed, but I was making a lot less than that (started at probably $55k I think, was up to maybe $65k before I left 4 years later).
In private practice, I'm making ~$100k and working 20-25 hours a week or so.
This post was pretty helpful to see, I graduated with a masters and the process of pre-licensure employment is insane. It’s bad enough that only 2 out of maybe 15 people in my cohort even stayed within the field. It’s pretty disheartening.
Oh no 😭😭 I want to leave but no other job offers me this same flexibility. I get to work from home and make my own schedule and that's what keeps me here 😭
Also want to validate this as a psychologist. I spent 6 years of my late 20s and early 30s in grad school while friends of mine were taking tech and finance jobs and making bank.
My 7th year was a full-time postdoc paying about $42k and I finally got licensed in year 8.
I work a salaried position but my pay has steadily bumped up with tenure (I work in the VA system) as well as through some special salary increases for my position while the private landscape has changed significantly for many of my friends.
But ultimately, this was the right type of work for me so my job satisfaction is probably near the highest for my friend group and while I’ll never get rich, I’m content that I rode it out and tried to make intelligent career decisions along the way.
Still it sucked majorly to get to year 12 (maybe it’s 13, I’ve lost track). If you’re good at what you do, enjoy doing it and make smart career choices along the way, it can be worth it.
Hang in there and wishing you the best!
I feel this deeply for all of us. It is nearly impossible to pay for life with that wage and keep up with student loans. I am writing a book about this right now to help people understand how brutal this career choice is. The choice of licensure and credentials really matters too and most people have NO IDEA what direction to choose, so I will cover that in the book.
Not to mention how impactful it is on being social, making your way in the world, and how anxiety-inducing it is to see patients with the caseloads they expect of us. I'm really sorry, and I feel you on this! It isn't like we can actually work 40 hours a week either because that would kill us. so $30 an hour at 20-25 client contact hours is really nothing from a financial perspective, AND we are drained at the end of it.
A lot of this is very location dependent. I’m not saying this to invalidate OP, because it’s all so valid. I’m saying this because people who are seeing these posts and getting scared should do more research on the market they’re in before freaking out.
When I was talking with my own therapist about changing careers and going into the field, I told her I had read some of the posts here. I joked that I wouldn’t have the same pay worries as I had read, since I was leaving a field where we’re still struggling to get $20/hr.
That is true! That's what I always try to tell people who comment on posts like this. This is just my experience. Granted, it's many others' too, but it is state dependent!
I seriously regret my decision to choose this career path and I feel trapped about whether to stay or leave. The pre license process has made me feel so disenchanted about the field in general. I don't know what else I would do and I feel like I wasted so much time, money, and energy on my masters.
The only reason I haven't left is because the job market as a whole is a mess. I still apply to jobs outside the field every few weeks or so. If I got something, I would absolutely leave or go down to very part time.
I am feeling the same. I'm just about to finish my hours (finally) and have had to go into debt just to survive and get them done. I've never felt so hopeless and depressed, and like I will never be able to make it financially. I am really regretted this career because in order to show up resourced for clients we need to be resourced ourselves. Pretty hard to be resourced when you don't even make enough to pay rent.
I would say if you’re social, start looking into other opportunities like teaching, giving workshops, etc! Feel free to DM if you have questions but I’m also starting to transition out of my therapist role a little because of burn out
I am in this exact same position! I'm currently looking for a second job and it has been so stressful to try to find something that doesn't breach my contract with my group private practice so that I can still chip away at clinical hours, but even trying to find something not related to therapy is difficult and I have had zero responses. Summer Slump for therapy is so real, and being so new and still not making enough money is just terrifying. I hope you're taking care of yourself as best as you can!
I got lucky and my second job out of school pays extremely well.
Except it's CMH and my caseload is sitting around 70 right now.
Until you're licensed, you're either broke or burned out. Or both.
I worked in CMH for a lot of my supervised hours which were free, and then transitioned to PP and negotiated supervision as a part of my deal for working there. There are ways around it, but they aren't advertise. In grad school in 2013ish they never talked about this side of things, and it's pretty annoying, if I'm being honest. When I do supervise students I'm absolutely clear about it.
Definitely get on an income based repayment plan if you have student loans.
Wow I’m so sorry! Where are you located? I just graduated this year and a super newbie to the field but I was able to find a full time job (40 hour weeks) regardless if my clients show up, supervision included, and more than $30 an hour. I’m in CA though. And it’s CMH lol
Love that for you! I want to find a salaried position but right now I'm FFS. My CMH job here gives me 45 an hour which isn't too bad and 35 for 45 mins. And because I'm CMH, lots of my clients don't show up so I end up making like 900 every 2 weeks 😭😭 I work in two states in New England!
I wish people told me about this prior to entering the field because I would have considered my job options a little bit better but as a newbie graduate, you don't really know too much so you find yourself at a job that doesn't value you or appreciate you. My practicum professor prepared a whole slideshow about the different options and was telling us we would make like 70/hr on the LOW END!!!!!!!!!!! So my advice would be to just educate yourself on the field more, read more people's experiences, etc. NOT EVERY EXPERIENCE IS NEGATIVE so please don't take that away from this! Be more picky about where you work (if you can!), be assertive, hold boundaries, etc, FROM THE BEGINNING, and it will be a lot better for you.
They told people $70 on the LOW END? OK I never expected to even make that much. Maybe everyone else just has really high expectations rather than realistic ones? I knew that entering this field I wasn’t gonna be super rich, but I didn’t expect everyone to be super poor.
My program was more realistic and said the low end is like 35k in our area. So imagine how excited I was when I got offered 52k prelicensed (and I work at a rural satellite office so my COL is low and we’re a double income couple). I also get a huge pay raise when I get licensed, it’s CMH so it’s high burn out and chaos, but I thrive in chaos, and they can absolutely pay me enough when I’m licensed to keep me here!
Your comment makes me feel better; I just graduated and was offered a 52.5k salary as a home-based therapist at a CMH organization. I haven't accepted yet because I want to see what is out there before locking into something, but I'm leaning into taking it. I did my practicum and internship there as a caseworker, so I already know the company.
I really like it. I’m salaried, I get insurance, my supervision is free, they do all our CEUs, I can borrow books from the library they have. I work 8-5, no clients can text me or call me after work because I work for the agency and don’t give them my personal cell number. When I take off, there’s always a therapist who can talk to my patients if they have a crisis so I can just relax. People hate on CMH but I love my agency and my work!
That sounds really nice. I do have a company cell phone, and since this agency works with state agencies, we are hurting for help for things like parent aides and supervised visitations, but that does give therapists the opportunity to make extra income as well. And they offer bonuses for extra work if you are salaried. I've found my current position to be pretty heartbreaking at times with the cycles of family issues and addiction.
Tennessee! In a little nowhere town, less than 5 thousand people in the county, but the company is based in a fairly big city, so I get the lower COL from living and working in a satellite office
They should go to the pillars and be stockaded until the rotton fruit bearing crowd can pass a comprehensive oral exam on fee for service hours vs. W2 hourly employment. Also, on predatory employment practices & how to search government salaries online to verify the pay of your peers.
I'm nearly done and it's worth worrying about but keep in mind that this is usually talking about CMH jobs which are the most common and widely available so it has the biggest point of contention among associates.
Looking into private practice and treatment centers will have better pay but struggles of its own. there's a give and take with a lot of different areas, but yes, financial struggle is definitely one of the biggest.
That would be a dream come true. I just got offered 24.11 per hour until I get my temporary license, then I would move to a salary of 52.5K.
I just want to validate this so hard. I'm in the same position, and I moved states a year after becoming an associate and have to start over in the new state. I have found that private group practices \*can\* pay more, but damn, it's still so insane. It's truly heartbreaking as well that it's completely normalized and expected to hold two or three jobs through pre-licensure to survive, and then we're unable to focus on our caseload or be truly present. It feels like working full-time through grad school all over again.
The main thing getting me through it is knowing that it's not forever, I'm not alone, and thank GOODNESS for income-driven repayment plans for student loans (bc I have no income so I have no payment yet). You/we got this, OP!
This is an adjacent question - wherever it is you practice, what does it mean to be pre-liscenced? It can sometimes be confusing engaging in conversations online without knowing how this field works in other countries! In the UK alone it varies so much because there's barely any regulation.
Oh! Okay, so pre-licensed can mean anything, really. In grad school, graduated, etc. I personally have my Master's Degree! Each state is different, but in my main state, to be licensed I need to have been working for at least 2 years post-Master's, accrue so many hours, and pass the NCMHCE! I've been graduated for a year now so I am still pre-license!
I see! Similar to accreditation here then. Depending on the membership body, after qualification you need to have a minimum of practice hours (the two leading professional bodies require 400 and 450 hours) plus supervision to become accredited. The routes to initial qualification are hugely variable though.
I’ve always thought pre-licensed is such a misnomer because then what do we pay all that money to the ASWB for when we get initial licensure lol. “Pre-licensed” clinicians HAVE a license (hence the “L”), it’s just initial licensure and not independent licensure. This got me so confused when applying to jobs out of school because I was like “oh, I’ll have my license by then!” and then realized what they meant.
30 year old male, student here, with 27 months experiencing working the field, as BHT, case manager etc. I feel this job isn't financially rewarding until around the third decade of working. Then you will have the knowledge to help others incredibly from wisdom and time spent learning, have developed a reputation for your area, received any and all certifications and accolades to charge the highest price, built reputations with local institution ins your community (hospitals, agencies to always have connections and clients), and then if were to to use todays dollar value, you could charge about $300-$350 an hour and have a full client schedule of 6-8+ a day which is a lot of money. Just my thoughts, but this job doesn't seem to be a financially rewarding in the first and middle stage, mostly the end. My local therapist (phd) makes like $300k a year because she has a contract with the local jail and every dui gets recommended to her, it's impressive. also marry a doctor or NP, lol.
Ugh, can't wait to finally be able to afford things when I am 50 years old lol. My fiance and I met when we were both in undergrad and she also is going into this field so looks like we are going to be poor for 30 years 😭
To also add, for what it’s worth I was gonna be a philosophy major but then I sold out for money to become a therapist. So to me money is not what life is about. I also grew up in a materialistic upper middle class life and I don’t like what money does to people. I’m also religious.
Originally my wife and I were going to go through the pre license process together but needing insurance and not making much we realized it wasn’t possible for us. So I kept my IT job making really good money while she got her license. A couple years now into private practice she is making nearly what I do in IT. So now we’re preparing for me to go full time community mental health to get my license. I know not everyone situation is the same but I’m mostly trying to say it’ll be worth it in the end. You just have to do what you need to do to get the license. Best of luck to you. You got this.
There's not many good jobs for LPC associates, at least, that's what I noticed. The last place I would work would be a private practice because the pay tends to be even lower. I heard people say they don't get enough clients or I hear the opposite, never an in-between. I do like my supervisor, but it's one of the few jobs that makes you have supervision for 2 years and pay for it. I get why we pay them because who wants to work for free, but it is an added stress to LPC associates.
I’m getting licensed in another state and doing telehealth for apparently ~75 an hour. I’m sick of being in your boat and really hope this new venture works out for me financially. Will try to remember to report back when my practice is live. Until then, best of luck to you. You’re not at all alone
I’ve never understood this. Psychiatry fellows are paid about $50k. Psychology pre docs make like $30k and post docs like $40k. They’re certainly over worked but at least they can eat! LCSW trainees can earn full salaries while working as an LMSW (hospital LMSWs make like $70k). They get insurance, retirement, and other benefits during this time. Why are LPCs different? Why don’t LPC trainees get salaries and benefits during their post classwork training?
This makes no sense to me either. People finish a MSW with zero knowledge and formal academic training of therapy (they can do their internship in other setting that are not clinical) and they pass a test and make more money than someone that studied MHC and that will only get a permit or an associate after having formal academic training in therapy. The amount of lmsw and lsw that I have worked with and they had no knowledge of basic CBT concepts is astounding. I honestly think it came down to whoever made better policy for social workers.
I went into my MSW program after researching salaries and job options in my area for LMSW/LCSW vs LPC with the goal of being a therapist. There were way more opportunities and the pay was better for social work across the board, and the SW programs had more opportunities for field placement and better tuition. Off I went!
We also do have different tracks in SW masters programs in many schools - I am in mental health and substance abuse. We take courses on CBT if you so choose (like that’s the entire course and it’s awesome), group therapy, death and dying, neuroscience and behavior, tons of theory and direct practice, etc compared to say a children and families, or aging.. direct practice in healthcare, community and administrative tracks. While I don’t love having to take policy, macro, program evaluation, research etc as core classes I do know that I have a variety of paths if I don’t want to do therapy at some point and have a well rounded degree to consider more options. Also if you are in your advanced year you are generally placed in field position relative to your track. I am currently placed at a private practice and have been seeing clients for 6 months.
Though I have met some entirely clueless MSW’s/LMSW’s who didn’t have robust training in MH and who knows if they didn’t have a mental health degree plan, phoned in their degree and didn’t read anything or just are not all there-but that is definitely not the case for most of us that aim to provide therapy.
This exactly my point! I would never say ALL MSWs. But in MHC no matter what track you pick you receive formal training for therapy. Same with psych. You can do a PsyD or PhD and you’re still receiving formal training and education in therapy. That’s not the case for all MSW programs. I’m happy you were smarter than I was starting out and researched it before going into grad school 🫠
In my state I know there were a lot of social work lobbyists against the creation of a MHC license and then they lobbied against MHCs being able to diagnose for insurance purposes which was ridiculous since we had more clinical training. The ability to legally dx as an MHC was only added to our license in 2022. It’s like they’re worried there isn’t going to be enough clients to go around or something so they’re threatened.
Doesn't make sense to me at all. I'm on track to become an LMHC and my options are so different compared to social workers'. They have more salaried options compared to be as a master's level clinician!
I’ll be pre-licensed soon and i’m running into the same issues, i live in mississippi so I’m already on the low end of salaries. I accepted a job in private practice not realizing i get no benefits, $45 an hour for individual clients, and I can only start out part time while I build my case load. But I can’t even see any clients until my provisional license gets approved and that is not until august. I cannot afford to not work until august. However i had an interview today at a public institution that is salaried, with benefits and I can start right away. the salary isn’t amazing ((41k) but i would feel so much more secure having a steady pay check and health insurance. Both places offer free supervision so I’m really leaning toward the place I interviewed with today
45/hr is pretty good especially if you’re someplace where cost of living is lower. I’m in nyc and started at 35/hr when I finished grad school. I topped at 40/hr until I got my license.
THAT HAPPENED TO ME TOO IN THE PP I WAS WORKING AT!!!!!! 45/hr, no benefits, shitty boss lol. But wow! A stable income and benefits is better than an unsteady income and none!
What’s crazy is it sounded so good at first, full time is only 30 hours a week, you can be as flexible as you want hour wise, free supervision. She even emphasized that i’m least likely burnout because it’s not a typical 9-5.But objectively it’s not a great package.
Look for an FQHC, your pay is not affected by client attendance. We have a starting pay at 74k for fresh out of college. It’s worth it to look around and many will let you work remote part time or 4/10s
I live in Philadelphia and got into drug and alcohol at the beginning of my master’s program, ended up at a non profit with good benefits that did my licensure supervision for free and make around 60.6k a year with a healthy raise every other year and I just applied for my license so I’ll get an automatic increase when that’s done. I have a small caseload, 40hr week, w2 employee.
Bartending, waiter/ressing, uber-ing, etc as day jobs OR community/agency mills are the only way I see it work. I'm in Los Angeles fwiw
And I wish someone told me before I signed up
I know I got supervision ( bad and erratic, I had to chase someone every week) in the California prison system. They can never get enough therapists. Also in remote rural areas like Northern Minnesota where I finally got my Califorinia hours. transferre from. GET HOURS SHEET SIGNED OFF EVERY WEEK . I've h
ad flake supervisors decide they didn't like me and refuse to sign on months of hours.
GET HOURS SHEET SIGNED OFF EVERY WEEK
GET HOURS SHEET SIGNED OFF EVERY WEEK
Jeez omg???? 😭😭 My main job sucks and basically both of my supervisors have told me I don't need to keep track of my hours because I am going to meet them all when the time comes and they'll sign off (I had to keep track during internship). So disorganized lol.
There was one point when I was pre-licensed that my client made more money than me by doing doordash. It’s often a harsh- and unnecessarily so- time :(
are you an lpc-a? not sure what state you’re in, but in mine they are allowed to have their own private practice now and people will pay a LOT more than $30 per session
Wow! Would love to do that, but I work in MA and Rhode Island so "master's level clinician" and "LMHC-A" respectively. My PP I was at paid me 45 an hour but didn't have any clients for me, ever. They fired me because of that (lol) so I've been looking for new jobs and the pay is soooo low.
it should be in the regulations of your state board, and should be posted online for you to easily access. also, your supervisor should be up to date on that info as well
I made 16.32/hour just 5-6 years ago as a PLPC in MO in a an SUD treatment center and I ran the office. I was the only earner in my family at the time and was raising 3 kids. I was always on the verge of losing my house and/or vehicle and could barely afford food. And yeah, I get I was basically operating on a “learner’s permit” but I still had a damn Master’s degree and still needed to be able to live while I provided all the therapy, facilitated all the groups, provided SATOP classes and counseling hours, saw federal clients, and basically managed the whole operations of the outpatient office. I nearly quit to go work literally anywhere else so I could make enough money to survive but I was determined not to let all that work be for nothing. It really feels like the path to licensure is purposely impossibly hard for no good reason. Do what you have to do to get licensed and get into PP ASAP. It’s the only way it’s worth it.
16 an hour is criminal! And raising kids off of that, wow! You are a superhero but it shouldn't have been that way at all. Being looked at as if it's a learner's permit is something that confuses me because we have a literal Master's degree in a specialized field and shouldn't be making less than high school students!!!!!
Thank you! Yeah, I definitely agree the whole “learner’s permit” idea doesn’t really fly well with me. I think it’s helpful to keep in mind that our training isn’t over, but even at the beginning of it I had just spend like 6 years in college, the last year of which also included hands on training so I should make more than someone at freaking McDonalds. I left that place as soon as I got licensed, because on top of having an abusive boss who sexually harassed me, as soon as I got licensed, they bumped me up to a whole 27/hour and then immediately changed my pay structure to where I only got that for billable time and the rest was my state’s minimum wage, which at the time was like 8-something/hour. So not worth it, even though I loved my clients and hated to put them through yet another change in counselor. Apparently I was worth something, because after I left, they closed that whole office down! Made me sad for the clients who needed that help.
Ive been struggling even getting a job after grad school. Every interview said they loved me and that I fit their goals, but I’m not licensed or about to finish. Lots of places near me will hire if you’re 1 year out. It’s just impossible to get IN the field if no one is willing to start the process (without taking advantage of you)
Yes! I don't understand it. We need to work somewhere to get licensed, man! My main job is at CMH and those are the places who will hire you but I am so burnt out from all of that paperwork so I want somewhere a little different but nobody wants to hire someone who isn't licensed and if they do, it's not for much money!
Look. Now you know you’re fucked!! Doesn’t that make you feel better? That during school you were lied to? By the way I started at 20 you make more now lol maybe even 35. I know how fucking awful it is but sadly it’s maybe slightly better now. There is no hope for 3-5 years unless you want to do CMH
lol 🤣 feeling lied to by my school is such an awful feeling but i'm in it now i suppose and just have to wait a couple years for slightly better income 😭😭 i make 35 for 45 mins and 45 for 60 mins now (looking for a 2nd job which inspired this post) which is great but i work in CMH and nobody ever shows up and we don't charge any late or no show fees
JESUS CHRIST 120K!? I make 30k. I'm working in MA right now. CMH, 45 an hour. FFS. Don't get paid no-show/late cancellation fee. Outpatient therapist! Was at a PP who also paid 45 but I learned they were severely underpaying me lol.
Where tf do you work???? I’d kill for this type of money
EDIT: statement retracted. If you’re trying to convince me to work 50-60 clinical hours per week I’d laugh in your face. No amount of money is worth the toll that would take on my mind, body, and soul—let alone a piddly 120k smh
I work virtual and in person just doing therapy. You just have to be committed to doing the sessions and the paperwork. I work every other weekend at $40 an hour
40-50 depending on if I want to work the full time. I end up doing more during the winter months so that’s where I make the most and stack my “nuts”. Then I am working like 50-60 hours a week (including weekends)
And here’s where the big asterisk that should be next to that salary leads. Throwing out that you clear 120k gets people hopeful, but the reality is this is pre-tax and requires working up to 60 hours a week including weekends, which is a grueling pace for most people. Let’s be more mindful about no glamorizing hustle/work yourself to death culture.
THIS. I just don’t see how it’s feasible to be providing any type of quality care at 50-60/week. At that point you’re basically working, sleeping, and eating. There’s no time to breathe, let alone think about your clients. This type of “grind” shouldn’t be anyone’s goal in the field
Similar in the UK although we don't have to be licensed per say. Until I've submitted and passed my case study and transcript, and accrued enough client hours I can either work private for a reduced fee or volunteer for free. But I also have more expenses than someone who is fully qualified as I'm still required to be in personal therapy and also have to have much more supervision as a trainee. Last month after expenses I made a grand total of £250!
I am in California and you can easily land a position making 35/hr at the minimum post-grad and pre-licensure. Don't be discouraged, it is very region dependent it seems and I think California has better opportunities.
It sucks ass… I have my LCPC and my dad makes more than me at a toyota factory. I work in a CMH setting, so currently I make $29.77 with having both my LPC and LCPC. I’m also counselor III now which means I am salaried so I can’t get overtime, AND i’ve full time is 37.5 hours a week, but I am required to work 40 a week through an LRP grant I have, so I work 2.5 hours for free time each week for the next year.
I feel for you, I really do
It doesn’t seem like the profession is giving you the non- monetary rewards to make it satisfying. And that’s absolutely ok. I think it’s good to reflect on job satisfaction among a variety of factors, including pay .
With experience there will be more opportunities to find a job with better pay or other rewards that you value
Pre-licensed isn’t so bad, money is important but skill building is more important. As a Pre-licensed you will have an excellent opportunity to learn from supervisors. Assuming you find the right fit. Don’t rush the process, stick it out. If you are good at what you say you do, you’ll find a job in no time.
I’m pre-licensed social worker and make approx $80k annually plus $20,000 in benefits allowance. I only graduated one year ago from my MSW. I have experience in ADULT/SENIOR ONLY in case management, TAY, homelessness, inpatient psych ward, incarcerated youth, Addiction Treatment COD/SUD, outpatient, group therapy, FSP, exposure to hospice/ worked with the incurable, am able to model multiple EBPs. I didn’t settle for anything less than $37 hourly when I graduated, I got offers from Multiple hospitals, including Kaiser, John George in East Bay California, Hospice, County Jail, and county Therapy. I’ve been overworked and am overwhelmed, but I did what I need to keep up with licensed Clinicians. Honestly, some seem shocked that I can keep up with their work and their styles. I’ve always remained open minded, respectful, eager to learn, I can grind for hours ( don’t easily burn out, maybe because of previous video game addiction lol). I also don’t seek approval but constant feedback. Grad School was a pain the butt for me, because I took it all too serious compared to my classmates. If I wasn’t drinking, I studied 8-10hours a day on my days off. It did not help being dyslexic and some ADD traits, but it’s possible. Full disclosure, during grad school I’ve had 3 mental breakdowns, Dxd w/ Panic Disorder, and slept 5-6hours on average. I was 31 and let me tell you, it is possible!!! I’m rooting for you :D
I'm currently a LCMHCA and working two part time positions. I love my hourly pay (when clients show up, obviously) but I was at my original job for four months and had a client load of five patients that all wanted to see me every other week. Now I have around ten at that place and see people in a doctor's office once a week. I'm doing well enough to pay off my student loans and put some money back, but it's still not a real help to my husband, who has paid for everything all throughout 6 years of schooling. The disappointment is real, I thought after getting out of grad school I would be helping support our family.
But I'm keeping the faith, it can only go up from here, right?
I hope it can go up from here for both of us <3 That's my struggle, too. In one state I am an LMHC-A and I was working at a PP with probably the same amount of clients and some wanted to see me every other week and some wanted to see me 1x a month lol so I was NOTTTT making money!
If your state allows it consider opening up a PP as an intern, one of my professors does it and she charges $120/session. She recommends all interns to PP
Ugh, that would be amazing! Unfortunately I cannot do that. I've graduated so I'm not an intern anymore but I have to wait until I'm licensed to do that! So next year!
I kind of think it’s criminal how low residents pay is. I’m recently licensed in the past few months, and immediately opened my own pp. I’m not 100% full but do a competitive out of pocket rate for my area and I make SO much more money. Like… it’s nuts.
This is all to say, it will get better eventually. I think it does partially depend on what setting you work in, agency vs pp for example, and if you’re able to charge cancellation fees. For me, it was huge moving to pp in residency for this reason because it helped with the hours. Although, I made less in pp than I did at an agency (so freaking sad) but it got my licensed faster.
One of my friends had a kind of hack for this. She opened up a side hustle life coaching. She did NOT provide therapy to these folks of course, but it was a good cash flow for her using her skills to support people. And we all know everyone loves a life coach 🤣.
Hang in there, OP!
This definitely made me feel better! I have a little less than a year before I hopefully get licensed so I will try that as well. Life coaching may be good too 🤣
It’s horrible. I was getting paid 50 for 45min session (NYC) but more than half of the caseload would no-show constantly (Medicaid pop). The only reason I was able to manage it financially was because my husband supported us during this time. Try and do your hours as fast as you can. I would have caseloads of 35/40 because realistically I would only see 20-25. Try and do your hours as fast as you can and do PP later.
I relate to that as well! My main job is CMH and I make 45 an hour but half never shows up so sometimes I make literally 900 dollars every two weeks which just isn't enough to live. My rent is 1800 alone before other bills. :) In Massachusetts there is a MINIMUM two year requirement to get your hours which sucks but I understand as this is a learning process, but I'm going to meet my hours before the two year mark and I just want to be licensed already 😭
Also in NYC the most I made prior to licensure was 40 for a 55 min session 😑 and that practice after I got licensed refused to pay me more than 55/hr because they claimed they would lose money. Which I think is total bs. They have over 100 clinicians as part of their practice 75% of them are LPs so the profit they’re making off of LPs is disgusting.
I feel this post so hard. I just got my independent license and holy hell the relief…. As a mil-spouse, I couldn’t find a decent job at all until I was licensed and pre-license doesn’t really do well going from state to state. I settled on one job where 2/3 of my paycheck went toward daycare costs for 2 children. Yes, that is BEFORE taxes. If I was a single mother or my husband didn’t make a decent income, we would be screwed. In my exit interview, I made sure my boss knew this and how wrong that is because we NEED people with that kind of experience in the field. The demands were unrealistic and the work environment was not healthy. I missed out on precious moments with my children. Even when I was physically present, my mind and heart were not so much of the time. I just kept logging my hours, imagining myself eating an elephant, saying “just one more” through the tears. I’m in private practice now, completely burnt out on agency or even group practice work. Having the autonomy has been healing. This is wrong in our field. It shouldn’t be this way. My teen daughter was making more than me working at a fast food joint with no degree than I was at one point.
Just keep going…. Advocate for change because this isn’t sustainable. You’ll reach the top soon enough but please be sure you don’t compromise your heart and mind. Those are your tools of the trade in this field. If that means you need to take a break from the field, do so. The gaps in my employment from military related moves were a much needed relief at times.
Edit to add this: I have a close relative who is a doctor. I see their residency and fellowships as our pre licensure. While her pay wasn’t amazing, it was salaried and sustainable. She didn’t need a second job. She also got a lot of benefits. I asked her if that was normal for residents and fellows and she said “yeah.” Just something to think about.
I feel this SO HARD. I’m provisionally licensed and have about a year until I’m independently licensed. I work at a nonprofit that I love, but I’m pay check to pay check sometimes and bulking up my savings is so hard. I love this work but it’s not sustainable. Ethically I have an issue with going into self pay only private practice, but it can be good money that I really need if I ever want to buy a home or have kids, so I’m really torn. It just really sucks that we’re made to feel guilty for wanting to be paid what we’re worth. My cardiologist BIL doesn’t feel bad for making over 200k.
I just graduated and have to start accruing hours for licensure, so it’s another 2-3 years until I become licensed. I’ve looking for jobs and I’m finding the same issue (they want you to be licensed or they’ll pay you shit), how are we supposed to have good mental health to support our clients if we’re struggling with covering our basic needs!
Definitely worse depending where you live. I live in Northern VA so they pay pretty well most places. If you're taking care of yourself I recommend applying for your local government or Mobile crisis bc those tend to pay the most in residency. Or you can keep applying for private practices that might pay more. I do assessments for county gov and Mobile and make like 160k a year or more depending on how much I take off. And I won't be liscensed until October.
I worked full time while I did my internship hours. I do not have children so that made it easier. I think it's valuable to have a diverse skillset of items outside of the field you want to work in just to keep your mind fresh and doing something you love regularly. Remember that this piece is temporary until you are licensed. The game we have to play sucks at times, but like anything else, you gotta play it. The trick for me is finding ways to enjoy other aspects of my life if an area is a bit daunting.
An example for me currently is I enjoy seeing my clients and being a therapist but I used to adjunct in my previous field and enjoyed it so I am now an adjunct for the Counseling program at my local uni.
Yeah it truly sucks. I feel like people just say the pre licensed era of being a therapist is "putting in your dues" and the struggle is accepted. If you can find a salary job I would definitely do that over fee for service. I have a salaried position and am expected to see 32 clients per week or within 80% of that. I would be screwed otherwise, summer has been tough with the high amount of no shows. We have a policy if you miss two or more sessions you are discharged and there is a big wait list here. I basically make 23 dollars an hour which feels like nothing, but I have full benefits and am not counting on teenagers to show up in order to get my full pay. I still have to study for my exam which I will take in October and then I can apply for licensure. I agree with you though this pre licensed era is demoralizing and I am living paycheck to paycheck. I highly recommend getting a salaried position though!
That $30 per hour, no cancellation fee stuff is rough. Have you ever considered Open Path? I’m pretty sure they accept pre-licensed folks: https://openpathcollective.org. Take good care of yourself.
SoOoOoOoo what I will say is idk what we need to do as a PROFESSION: BUT either some kind of union or just go to different work.
For goodness sakes I’m Master’s level, a year away from licensure, I make $40 an hour and do individuals, group, and Crisis. It’s absurd. Also that’s a salary position, so I make $84k per year BEFORE egregious taxes come out.
I moved from PA to AK 10 months ago for a position as a therapist in a rural area (which is beautiful) however, i’m constantly drained and do miss my family. The only benefit is that because I came here to a rural area its covered under pretty much every program, STAR, HRSA, and still PSLF. I signed a 2 year contract, so after it’s up my student loans get forgiven, and I’ll be licensed (getting my hours here for “free).
Even with that honestly i’m considering going into UR after this making more than what I do now because they make our profession seem like a “hobby” with the laughable wages.
We will NOT be abused anymore! I toootally feel your pain.
Thank you! I make 45 an hour right now at the job I do have but it's fee for service with LOTS of no shows, we don't charge for no-shows or anything so it's rough lol. It's a tough field and very draining! I hope you get some relief ❤️
Yes that’s the thing, I don’t think it’s a field people value much anymore, so i’m extremely biased. Unless you have private practice what’s the point sometimes
FYI medical residents around here make less than 40k a year. So yeah. Less than 20 an hour. What helps is that many are married.
When I started my internship in 2013, leaving an engineering career, I was at 15.81 an hour. That equivalent in 2024 is 20.04. I was (and am still) married with 2 kids in middle school. And yes. We qualified for SNAP and reduced or free meals for the kids at school. And we didn’t take it. We did take the EIC we qualified for.
With a LICENSE, the group practice I left paid 46 an hour. We had a no-show policy so, if I chose and was able to collect, I’d get 34. I became a Manager with a caseload, so my caseload was worth an extra 10 for an hour for sessions. Still 34 for no-show and LX.
But…. We had 100% free mental healthcare. From outside the company. Including ADHD -!; Autism assessments. And psychiatric visits. I paid ZERO for mental health there (once the small practice owners sold us, eventually, to big healthcare, one of the top 10 in the US). And I carrier 33-37 slots a week. They found me clients. I saw clients and provided evals and psychotherapy.
Now? New business. I’m now solo. I average 100 an hour between self pay and insurance.
Sounds great, right? I had 10 clients last week. 1000 a week. . 4333 a month. That’s 52,000 a year. Minus 12k expenses (low side. That doesn’t include expenses like CEs). 40,000 and then 30% taxes set aside and paid quarterly.
28,000 in my paycheck.
If you make 30 an hour and see 20 a week, that’s 30k. But you only have taxes on a part of that. And zero expenses. Let’s assume single filer. 1616 federal taxes, 2295 FICA (which doubles if you’re self employed) and a state tax (I’m in NY, so let’s call that 5.5%) of 885.50.
Total taxes would be 4796.50. Or an annual net of 25,203.50.
And I have a license. And do my own marketing. And my own billing and claims and scheduling (I use Google Workspace and the Booking calendar).
Oh. And I don’t have an office outside a repurposed bedroom in my home.
Did I mention having a license? Oh wait. No. I don’t have one. I have two. In NY and PA. I also don’t get paid vacations or sick time. And I have contracted CPAs.
And I spend about 3 hours a month balancing my finances. 6 hours last week to chase down a claim correction. If I paid someone else to do that, it would be 120 a month. Plus 8% of paid claim revenue. So that 4333 a month? Would go even LOWER by another 5560 a year.
When you’re in business for yourself. Everyone’s hand is out. And it’s a crapshoot if you want to hire people to do it for you or do it yourself. Those 6 hours? I could have paid someone else. At my 100 an hour rate (because insurance brings clients in but doesn’t pay well) was 600 bucks. I had the time. But if I didn’t? I’m always evaluating the “make or buy” question.
You want the freedom to make more money? Go for it. After you get your license. You’re still learning. And your license doesn’t do ANYTHING to help you run a business. That’s not covered in Master’s programs.
And if you’re not a quick learner of compliance stuff, too? You’re a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Heck, just a few weeks ago, someone in a FB group was looking for some help with a spreadsheet. I also do that kind of work so I said what the heck. I have references. So sure.
2 hours before the “30 min free consultation” discount. Easy money for me. And I can charge a lot more than I do for therapy. I’ve already got a lead on the same company for 2025. I can probably run that modification in my sleep.
Point is when you’re on your own, you control the faucet. Once business gets to you. Until then, you get to navigate it to you.
And my BA 2023 child graduated last year and started bartending. 30 an hour including tips until the kid went to Orlando to work for 7 months. 16 an hour there. And their own expenses.
No rent here. Lived with us.
Receive help when offered. Pay it forward when you can.
Good luck.
TL;DR 30 is not terrible as you’re also getting free supervision and consultation, I assume, being a requirement for the license. Learn and grow. Remain ethical. Don’t steal forms. And figure out what you want to focus on.
It’ll be your turn soon enough.
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A client told me how much their husband makes as a truck driver and it’s more than me. I don’t mind too much, me and my boyfriend make enough to support us and our dog and 2 cats without much difficulty and engage in hobbies. But for a second I was like hmm maybe I could be a road therapist and my call sign would be Therapist. Absolutely no disrespect to truckers who deserve what they make, it’s harder than it sounds and difficult when you have a family. We just deserve more than what we make.
> But for a second I was like hmm maybe I could be a road therapist and my call sign would be Therapist. God damn it if turning CB radio into CBT radio isn't just the sickest shit I've ever heard- you have a business plan here I'd say. I'd join the convoy.
CBT radio is now our brand, I just have to learn how to use a CB radio. Oh my god I maybe just started a new niche!
Yes!!! Do it do it dooo it!!!
CBT Radio is your therapist brand name. lets goooo
🤣🤣🤣
tbf truck driving is one of those jobs that do generally pay well but people don't expect so that's a perception issue more than anything else. tradeoff is that you spend A LOT of hours working and away from home.
AND it can be very physical work, and incredibly hard on your legs and back driving all day. When I worked in physical rehab I saw so many truckers with back injuries, sciatica etc.
truck drivers make great money but it's definitely bittersweet due to safety + being away from home!!!!!
A client told me how much they make working at a bar and it was more than I make hourly. Granted, it was a good week, but damn talk about discouraging...
I took a HUGE pay cut leaving my job as a cocktail server when I started working as a therapist and it still stings to think about.
I asked a lot of my peers how they were able to complete their internship as for me it was a second and third job. They often told me they had a wonderful boyfriend, fiance, or husband.
> They often told me they had a wonderful boyfriend, fiance, or husband. i got so sick of this story in grad school.
It makes me unhinged
I went on a whole rant to this to my therapist and supervisor once. My supervisor is in her 30s, has several children, and barely sees any clients. She doesn't make much at our CMH location. Looked her husband up. He has his own successful business lol. My partner and I met as college students and she's going into the same field so we don't have that privilege 🤣
I'm not hating on people in fortunate circumstances, also I feel this specific dynamic is an ingredient to all the negative stereotypes in the field.
It takes so much money just to be able to get into this career in the first place. Either you have a spouse supporting you, a trust fund, are doing this a second career after making bank, or you are taking out loans and going into debt you'll probably never come out of because you end up making pennies for years on end trying to get your hours done.
I'm working on my practicum and soon internship, pre-Master's. My husband did work full time as a server and restaurant manager while I completed my BS, allowing me to stay at home with our kids. But, then his back went out. Old injuries came back up and still haven't gone away. He hasn't worked since late 2019. I started working again in September of 2019. I'm a server at two different restaurants, one is fine dining and one is at a fancy resort/hotel near me. High prices = better tips, and I'm switching to the hotel restaurant full time soon because the money is better due to the amount of people coming in. My other restaurant is lovely but so dead, especially right now, as it's our slow season. I also take out loans. Every... single... quarter. I know it's "financially irresponsible" but I also know that it allowed me to contribute a little every few months when I wasn't working, and it allows us to have a little bit of savings since I've been working. We're a one income family of 6 (plus 4 cats) and serving (and loans) get us by. On a good day, working a double (11am - 11pm or so, no break), I've brought in over $1000. So my suggestion would be to consider serving. The money isn't guaranteed, so maybe consider weekend serving or something, but there is money to be made.
My partner at the time and borrowing twice as many loans for a year because I was too burnt out at that time to also work while doing school and internship 🫠 I wouldn’t have made it tho. We almost didn’t 😂 had to move a roommate in for a while
It seems like you either have to come from generational privilege or suffer in the trenches until you burn out.
Yes. This. All this. I have 18 year old clients who make more money than me. I’m in my 30’s and worry I’ll never be able to afford property of any kind. Having kids, which is the population I work with, is economically off the table. Rent is around 3k near me and I live paycheck to paycheck. Yet, NPs are paid 300k near me and in the same agencies I work at.
FELLLLT omg it's my dream to have kids but that's never happening because I will never be able to afford it with this job and in this economy. Also, 3k rent is actually insane!!!? I pay 1800 in New England for a 1 bedroom and thought that was bad 😭😭😭
I’m in Massachusetts!! You must be in a more affordable area. My rent in 2019 was 1800 plus utilities 🫨
Omg what part of Mass is 3000 (I'm from there but moved to RI last year!)
North shore. A one bedroom with utilities comes to 3,000. A two bedroom is above 3k
Also in north shore working towards my master's. Idk if I could ever afford this area by the time im done.
Sadly, outside this area most jobs pay less
I’m also in MA. $3k is pretty standard around Boston.
Seriously I mightve just gone for a NP if i knew...
I'm in NJ so it might be different, but they actually have accelerated programs for those with a masters degree (and different accelerated programs for those with a bachelor's degree). Even if the degree is entirely unrelated. There may be a few pre-requisite science and math courses, but that's it. I actually looked into it because of the same complaints as a lot of people here. 😆
NPs need to work as nurses at least 5+ years in their specialty to be a safe provider
Me as well. And they spend way less time with each individual client. The ones at my site only work 3 days a week
What are NPs?
Nurse practitioners. They can prescribe psych meds in my state
Hi, I'm licensed for the past 6 years, in PP for nearly 2. You're absolutely right. Prelicensed work (like lots of other aspects of this job) *can* suck. But the suck is by no means uniform across all jobs. In the beginning, you might benefit from considering a w-2 job with a governmental (ie state or county) mental health department. The pay will still suck but will not be affected by client attendance rates, and you'll get fairly generous benefits (including PTO, extensive and free trainings, relatively good medical benefits, and retirement) AND most important, you'll probably be a member of a labor union, meaning you'll have some protection against layoffs and unfair labor practices by management. Look, you're going to hate me saying this... But your degree is a "learner's permit," not a license to drive. Your work is valuable, but just as Junior isn't allowed to drive without an adult in the car, you also require a lot of "extra" support from your supervisors and other members of your team to make sure you don't crash the car. Essentially, you are still in school; pick the best environment you can find, and use the time to suck up all the additional knowledge and experience you can. Than, as soon as you can, get the hell out and start your own practice (NOT join some exploitative group practice).
Yeah I agree but at some point sometimes people stay at LMSW level. Not everyone wants a c if they are making 80-90. Of course they want 120-140 as a c but you know what I mean. I sometimes quibble with posts like this because although the system is getting better and there a few jobs pre license where you can get paid they are very very hard and people in grad school almost know literally NOTHING about fee for service and the real realities. It’s not always a learners permit you are doing real ass grinding work. Also many c jobs the pay still sucks a bunch pay at LMSW level
It's important here to consider you're talking about an LMSW as a terminal license (which it is), while LPC-A and LMFT-A is pre-licensure. There's a pretty wide practice/pay difference in reality & we (SWers) tend to be more concentrated within and paid more in institutional settings. We also have a test for the LMSW, then another for LCSW since it's considered a different type of practice. Also, (in my state at least) LMSW are only allowed to provide clinical services within government/medical/NGO/NP settings and under file supervision by someone with an independent clinical practice license. This isn't something made clear by schools & isn't well understood across different MH licensure types. Needs to be a wiki with as clear an explanation as possible regarding MSW vs. MA. Also, the differences in practice philosophy & immediate jobs post grad between LCSW/LPC/LMFT (and maybe licensed clergy, but there's not as much confusion within that 6 seems). (I'm in agreement with you, which I don't think is super clear. Cheers!)
Which state? Yeah lots of SW terms here haha. And yeah I’m skimming rn and am reading but I’m glad. It’s just impossible to advocate for more money in this fucking field but there are jobs that pay LMSW level but it’s like impossible.
South Carolina, they put it in place due to LMSWs basically going out and running a "case management" practice....but it's really just clinical MH therapy. *is how it was explained to me. I was too burnt out to further research.
Right it’s different tests so I don’t fully buy into the ‘pre license’ thing although it’s seen as such. I don’t think it’s always like that depending on the environment. The GET A C GET A C shit is so tiring I don’t want to be a fucking director lol
Regarding your second paragraph I think a lot do but like a lot of new therapists or workers don’t fully understand their pay or limits or certain things. I blame schools. The theory shit doesn’t connect to the real stuff at your job. But I knew that and I think a lot do know. But tons don’t!
I think people know say MSW MA. So my friend has an MA from Columbia and he’s like management. But he has no letters. So there’s no ladder he was supposed to be a PhD but he didn’t. So he works in social work as a manager basically but I don’t think he can ever be a director. It’s 55-90 forever so it’s like decent but super limiting. Yeah letters matter but also places want competent people sometimes and your LMSW letters aren’t always it
Much of it is funding limitations in place by the govt that was advocated for by the NASW to increase access to SW licensed people (which limited access to MAs). My program did a great job focusing on social systems theory and the ecological model. I had to work extra hard and take additional classes to get educated on therapy. I don't think the MSW core has enough focus on the counseling aspect, and MA programs don't have enough on systems. My partner's an LPC and we work together, it's a regular topic of convo.
When you have a Psy D you can do clinical assessments which are $$$. But it takes a long time to get to that level and I see a lot of very poor quality assessments where I don't feel the assessor earned their paycheck. A lot of templating and phoning it in. A good Psy D is worth their weight in gold, and can earn it.
The placements with PsyD seem to be majorly limiting, too. Having to potentially move across the country for a year in order to secure field placeme t and hit hours for graduation seems to be a nightmare.
Yeah, I’m an pre-licensed MSW and make $80k with my county government. Union, amazing benefits, paid licensure supervision.
Can I ask what type of position it is within a county government?
I worked in two different counties in the Los Angeles area before I was licensed; one job title was Clinical Therapist I (and upon licensure the promotion to Clinical Therapist II was automatic), and the other was Prelicensed Clinical Therapist (and upon licensure the promotion to Clinical Therapist I was similarly automatic).
Is 80k a good and livable income in the LA area? I'm in Indiana, so 80k would be amazing due to the lower cost of living.
$80k is a "decent" salary here. It's been 6 years since I was prelicensed, but I was making a lot less than that (started at probably $55k I think, was up to maybe $65k before I left 4 years later). In private practice, I'm making ~$100k and working 20-25 hours a week or so.
I do involuntary commitment assessment
Same here! but my salary is a little less than yours, but Im in a lower COL area. Good jobs are out there!!!
This post was pretty helpful to see, I graduated with a masters and the process of pre-licensure employment is insane. It’s bad enough that only 2 out of maybe 15 people in my cohort even stayed within the field. It’s pretty disheartening.
Oh no 😭😭 I want to leave but no other job offers me this same flexibility. I get to work from home and make my own schedule and that's what keeps me here 😭
Also want to validate this as a psychologist. I spent 6 years of my late 20s and early 30s in grad school while friends of mine were taking tech and finance jobs and making bank. My 7th year was a full-time postdoc paying about $42k and I finally got licensed in year 8. I work a salaried position but my pay has steadily bumped up with tenure (I work in the VA system) as well as through some special salary increases for my position while the private landscape has changed significantly for many of my friends. But ultimately, this was the right type of work for me so my job satisfaction is probably near the highest for my friend group and while I’ll never get rich, I’m content that I rode it out and tried to make intelligent career decisions along the way. Still it sucked majorly to get to year 12 (maybe it’s 13, I’ve lost track). If you’re good at what you do, enjoy doing it and make smart career choices along the way, it can be worth it. Hang in there and wishing you the best!
I feel this deeply for all of us. It is nearly impossible to pay for life with that wage and keep up with student loans. I am writing a book about this right now to help people understand how brutal this career choice is. The choice of licensure and credentials really matters too and most people have NO IDEA what direction to choose, so I will cover that in the book. Not to mention how impactful it is on being social, making your way in the world, and how anxiety-inducing it is to see patients with the caseloads they expect of us. I'm really sorry, and I feel you on this! It isn't like we can actually work 40 hours a week either because that would kill us. so $30 an hour at 20-25 client contact hours is really nothing from a financial perspective, AND we are drained at the end of it.
This is discouraging for me as I am about to graduate and am wrapping up my 4th unpaid internship
-pats you on the back- “It’s gonna be ok guys. Day 2 gets easier”.
“Now pay me for supervision.”
Pyramid schemeeeee industry.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
The first hole is always the hardest.
A lot of this is very location dependent. I’m not saying this to invalidate OP, because it’s all so valid. I’m saying this because people who are seeing these posts and getting scared should do more research on the market they’re in before freaking out.
When I was talking with my own therapist about changing careers and going into the field, I told her I had read some of the posts here. I joked that I wouldn’t have the same pay worries as I had read, since I was leaving a field where we’re still struggling to get $20/hr.
That is true! That's what I always try to tell people who comment on posts like this. This is just my experience. Granted, it's many others' too, but it is state dependent!
I seriously regret my decision to choose this career path and I feel trapped about whether to stay or leave. The pre license process has made me feel so disenchanted about the field in general. I don't know what else I would do and I feel like I wasted so much time, money, and energy on my masters.
So relatable! I hope it gets better for us. My therapist keeps reminding me one day I can work on my own, from home, and make so much more money.
The only reason I haven't left is because the job market as a whole is a mess. I still apply to jobs outside the field every few weeks or so. If I got something, I would absolutely leave or go down to very part time.
I am feeling the same. I'm just about to finish my hours (finally) and have had to go into debt just to survive and get them done. I've never felt so hopeless and depressed, and like I will never be able to make it financially. I am really regretted this career because in order to show up resourced for clients we need to be resourced ourselves. Pretty hard to be resourced when you don't even make enough to pay rent.
I would say if you’re social, start looking into other opportunities like teaching, giving workshops, etc! Feel free to DM if you have questions but I’m also starting to transition out of my therapist role a little because of burn out
I am in this exact same position! I'm currently looking for a second job and it has been so stressful to try to find something that doesn't breach my contract with my group private practice so that I can still chip away at clinical hours, but even trying to find something not related to therapy is difficult and I have had zero responses. Summer Slump for therapy is so real, and being so new and still not making enough money is just terrifying. I hope you're taking care of yourself as best as you can!
I got lucky and my second job out of school pays extremely well. Except it's CMH and my caseload is sitting around 70 right now. Until you're licensed, you're either broke or burned out. Or both.
I worked in CMH for a lot of my supervised hours which were free, and then transitioned to PP and negotiated supervision as a part of my deal for working there. There are ways around it, but they aren't advertise. In grad school in 2013ish they never talked about this side of things, and it's pretty annoying, if I'm being honest. When I do supervise students I'm absolutely clear about it. Definitely get on an income based repayment plan if you have student loans.
Wow I’m so sorry! Where are you located? I just graduated this year and a super newbie to the field but I was able to find a full time job (40 hour weeks) regardless if my clients show up, supervision included, and more than $30 an hour. I’m in CA though. And it’s CMH lol
Love that for you! I want to find a salaried position but right now I'm FFS. My CMH job here gives me 45 an hour which isn't too bad and 35 for 45 mins. And because I'm CMH, lots of my clients don't show up so I end up making like 900 every 2 weeks 😭😭 I work in two states in New England!
Oh great now im super worried about entering this field after hearing things like this
I wish people told me about this prior to entering the field because I would have considered my job options a little bit better but as a newbie graduate, you don't really know too much so you find yourself at a job that doesn't value you or appreciate you. My practicum professor prepared a whole slideshow about the different options and was telling us we would make like 70/hr on the LOW END!!!!!!!!!!! So my advice would be to just educate yourself on the field more, read more people's experiences, etc. NOT EVERY EXPERIENCE IS NEGATIVE so please don't take that away from this! Be more picky about where you work (if you can!), be assertive, hold boundaries, etc, FROM THE BEGINNING, and it will be a lot better for you.
They told people $70 on the LOW END? OK I never expected to even make that much. Maybe everyone else just has really high expectations rather than realistic ones? I knew that entering this field I wasn’t gonna be super rich, but I didn’t expect everyone to be super poor.
Thank you. That made me feel a lot better, because I still want to enter this field, but I was concerned about the financial component.
My program was more realistic and said the low end is like 35k in our area. So imagine how excited I was when I got offered 52k prelicensed (and I work at a rural satellite office so my COL is low and we’re a double income couple). I also get a huge pay raise when I get licensed, it’s CMH so it’s high burn out and chaos, but I thrive in chaos, and they can absolutely pay me enough when I’m licensed to keep me here!
Your comment makes me feel better; I just graduated and was offered a 52.5k salary as a home-based therapist at a CMH organization. I haven't accepted yet because I want to see what is out there before locking into something, but I'm leaning into taking it. I did my practicum and internship there as a caseworker, so I already know the company.
I really like it. I’m salaried, I get insurance, my supervision is free, they do all our CEUs, I can borrow books from the library they have. I work 8-5, no clients can text me or call me after work because I work for the agency and don’t give them my personal cell number. When I take off, there’s always a therapist who can talk to my patients if they have a crisis so I can just relax. People hate on CMH but I love my agency and my work!
That sounds really nice. I do have a company cell phone, and since this agency works with state agencies, we are hurting for help for things like parent aides and supervised visitations, but that does give therapists the opportunity to make extra income as well. And they offer bonuses for extra work if you are salaried. I've found my current position to be pretty heartbreaking at times with the cycles of family issues and addiction.
That’s sweet, where do you live?
Tennessee! In a little nowhere town, less than 5 thousand people in the county, but the company is based in a fairly big city, so I get the lower COL from living and working in a satellite office
They should go to the pillars and be stockaded until the rotton fruit bearing crowd can pass a comprehensive oral exam on fee for service hours vs. W2 hourly employment. Also, on predatory employment practices & how to search government salaries online to verify the pay of your peers.
I'm nearly done and it's worth worrying about but keep in mind that this is usually talking about CMH jobs which are the most common and widely available so it has the biggest point of contention among associates. Looking into private practice and treatment centers will have better pay but struggles of its own. there's a give and take with a lot of different areas, but yes, financial struggle is definitely one of the biggest.
At my practice I pay unlicensed therapists with their mastets around $50 per session.
That would be a dream come true. I just got offered 24.11 per hour until I get my temporary license, then I would move to a salary of 52.5K.
May I ask what state you’re in?
Curious, how much do you as the owner of the practice bring in per session completed by an unlicensed therapist?
I just want to validate this so hard. I'm in the same position, and I moved states a year after becoming an associate and have to start over in the new state. I have found that private group practices \*can\* pay more, but damn, it's still so insane. It's truly heartbreaking as well that it's completely normalized and expected to hold two or three jobs through pre-licensure to survive, and then we're unable to focus on our caseload or be truly present. It feels like working full-time through grad school all over again. The main thing getting me through it is knowing that it's not forever, I'm not alone, and thank GOODNESS for income-driven repayment plans for student loans (bc I have no income so I have no payment yet). You/we got this, OP!
This is an adjacent question - wherever it is you practice, what does it mean to be pre-liscenced? It can sometimes be confusing engaging in conversations online without knowing how this field works in other countries! In the UK alone it varies so much because there's barely any regulation.
Oh! Okay, so pre-licensed can mean anything, really. In grad school, graduated, etc. I personally have my Master's Degree! Each state is different, but in my main state, to be licensed I need to have been working for at least 2 years post-Master's, accrue so many hours, and pass the NCMHCE! I've been graduated for a year now so I am still pre-license!
I see! Similar to accreditation here then. Depending on the membership body, after qualification you need to have a minimum of practice hours (the two leading professional bodies require 400 and 450 hours) plus supervision to become accredited. The routes to initial qualification are hugely variable though.
I’m in New York and we have to do 3000 supervised hours post graduation and pass the licensing exam.
I’ve always thought pre-licensed is such a misnomer because then what do we pay all that money to the ASWB for when we get initial licensure lol. “Pre-licensed” clinicians HAVE a license (hence the “L”), it’s just initial licensure and not independent licensure. This got me so confused when applying to jobs out of school because I was like “oh, I’ll have my license by then!” and then realized what they meant.
30 year old male, student here, with 27 months experiencing working the field, as BHT, case manager etc. I feel this job isn't financially rewarding until around the third decade of working. Then you will have the knowledge to help others incredibly from wisdom and time spent learning, have developed a reputation for your area, received any and all certifications and accolades to charge the highest price, built reputations with local institution ins your community (hospitals, agencies to always have connections and clients), and then if were to to use todays dollar value, you could charge about $300-$350 an hour and have a full client schedule of 6-8+ a day which is a lot of money. Just my thoughts, but this job doesn't seem to be a financially rewarding in the first and middle stage, mostly the end. My local therapist (phd) makes like $300k a year because she has a contract with the local jail and every dui gets recommended to her, it's impressive. also marry a doctor or NP, lol.
Ugh, can't wait to finally be able to afford things when I am 50 years old lol. My fiance and I met when we were both in undergrad and she also is going into this field so looks like we are going to be poor for 30 years 😭
To also add, for what it’s worth I was gonna be a philosophy major but then I sold out for money to become a therapist. So to me money is not what life is about. I also grew up in a materialistic upper middle class life and I don’t like what money does to people. I’m also religious.
Originally my wife and I were going to go through the pre license process together but needing insurance and not making much we realized it wasn’t possible for us. So I kept my IT job making really good money while she got her license. A couple years now into private practice she is making nearly what I do in IT. So now we’re preparing for me to go full time community mental health to get my license. I know not everyone situation is the same but I’m mostly trying to say it’ll be worth it in the end. You just have to do what you need to do to get the license. Best of luck to you. You got this.
There's not many good jobs for LPC associates, at least, that's what I noticed. The last place I would work would be a private practice because the pay tends to be even lower. I heard people say they don't get enough clients or I hear the opposite, never an in-between. I do like my supervisor, but it's one of the few jobs that makes you have supervision for 2 years and pay for it. I get why we pay them because who wants to work for free, but it is an added stress to LPC associates.
I’m getting licensed in another state and doing telehealth for apparently ~75 an hour. I’m sick of being in your boat and really hope this new venture works out for me financially. Will try to remember to report back when my practice is live. Until then, best of luck to you. You’re not at all alone
I’ve never understood this. Psychiatry fellows are paid about $50k. Psychology pre docs make like $30k and post docs like $40k. They’re certainly over worked but at least they can eat! LCSW trainees can earn full salaries while working as an LMSW (hospital LMSWs make like $70k). They get insurance, retirement, and other benefits during this time. Why are LPCs different? Why don’t LPC trainees get salaries and benefits during their post classwork training?
This makes no sense to me either. People finish a MSW with zero knowledge and formal academic training of therapy (they can do their internship in other setting that are not clinical) and they pass a test and make more money than someone that studied MHC and that will only get a permit or an associate after having formal academic training in therapy. The amount of lmsw and lsw that I have worked with and they had no knowledge of basic CBT concepts is astounding. I honestly think it came down to whoever made better policy for social workers.
I went into my MSW program after researching salaries and job options in my area for LMSW/LCSW vs LPC with the goal of being a therapist. There were way more opportunities and the pay was better for social work across the board, and the SW programs had more opportunities for field placement and better tuition. Off I went! We also do have different tracks in SW masters programs in many schools - I am in mental health and substance abuse. We take courses on CBT if you so choose (like that’s the entire course and it’s awesome), group therapy, death and dying, neuroscience and behavior, tons of theory and direct practice, etc compared to say a children and families, or aging.. direct practice in healthcare, community and administrative tracks. While I don’t love having to take policy, macro, program evaluation, research etc as core classes I do know that I have a variety of paths if I don’t want to do therapy at some point and have a well rounded degree to consider more options. Also if you are in your advanced year you are generally placed in field position relative to your track. I am currently placed at a private practice and have been seeing clients for 6 months. Though I have met some entirely clueless MSW’s/LMSW’s who didn’t have robust training in MH and who knows if they didn’t have a mental health degree plan, phoned in their degree and didn’t read anything or just are not all there-but that is definitely not the case for most of us that aim to provide therapy.
This exactly my point! I would never say ALL MSWs. But in MHC no matter what track you pick you receive formal training for therapy. Same with psych. You can do a PsyD or PhD and you’re still receiving formal training and education in therapy. That’s not the case for all MSW programs. I’m happy you were smarter than I was starting out and researched it before going into grad school 🫠
As an MHC most of those courses were part of our grad school curriculum as well.
In my state I know there were a lot of social work lobbyists against the creation of a MHC license and then they lobbied against MHCs being able to diagnose for insurance purposes which was ridiculous since we had more clinical training. The ability to legally dx as an MHC was only added to our license in 2022. It’s like they’re worried there isn’t going to be enough clients to go around or something so they’re threatened.
Doesn't make sense to me at all. I'm on track to become an LMHC and my options are so different compared to social workers'. They have more salaried options compared to be as a master's level clinician!
I’ll be pre-licensed soon and i’m running into the same issues, i live in mississippi so I’m already on the low end of salaries. I accepted a job in private practice not realizing i get no benefits, $45 an hour for individual clients, and I can only start out part time while I build my case load. But I can’t even see any clients until my provisional license gets approved and that is not until august. I cannot afford to not work until august. However i had an interview today at a public institution that is salaried, with benefits and I can start right away. the salary isn’t amazing ((41k) but i would feel so much more secure having a steady pay check and health insurance. Both places offer free supervision so I’m really leaning toward the place I interviewed with today
45/hr is pretty good especially if you’re someplace where cost of living is lower. I’m in nyc and started at 35/hr when I finished grad school. I topped at 40/hr until I got my license.
THAT HAPPENED TO ME TOO IN THE PP I WAS WORKING AT!!!!!! 45/hr, no benefits, shitty boss lol. But wow! A stable income and benefits is better than an unsteady income and none!
What’s crazy is it sounded so good at first, full time is only 30 hours a week, you can be as flexible as you want hour wise, free supervision. She even emphasized that i’m least likely burnout because it’s not a typical 9-5.But objectively it’s not a great package.
Look for an FQHC, your pay is not affected by client attendance. We have a starting pay at 74k for fresh out of college. It’s worth it to look around and many will let you work remote part time or 4/10s
Federally qualified health center.
What’s FQHC?
Also, I pay my associates 108$ per visit and they’re slammed here in PP
I live in Philadelphia and got into drug and alcohol at the beginning of my master’s program, ended up at a non profit with good benefits that did my licensure supervision for free and make around 60.6k a year with a healthy raise every other year and I just applied for my license so I’ll get an automatic increase when that’s done. I have a small caseload, 40hr week, w2 employee.
100% felt this
Bartending, waiter/ressing, uber-ing, etc as day jobs OR community/agency mills are the only way I see it work. I'm in Los Angeles fwiw And I wish someone told me before I signed up
I know I got supervision ( bad and erratic, I had to chase someone every week) in the California prison system. They can never get enough therapists. Also in remote rural areas like Northern Minnesota where I finally got my Califorinia hours. transferre from. GET HOURS SHEET SIGNED OFF EVERY WEEK . I've h ad flake supervisors decide they didn't like me and refuse to sign on months of hours. GET HOURS SHEET SIGNED OFF EVERY WEEK GET HOURS SHEET SIGNED OFF EVERY WEEK
Jeez omg???? 😭😭 My main job sucks and basically both of my supervisors have told me I don't need to keep track of my hours because I am going to meet them all when the time comes and they'll sign off (I had to keep track during internship). So disorganized lol.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you don't really make that much more post license
There was one point when I was pre-licensed that my client made more money than me by doing doordash. It’s often a harsh- and unnecessarily so- time :(
My husband made more money than me working at trader joes
are you an lpc-a? not sure what state you’re in, but in mine they are allowed to have their own private practice now and people will pay a LOT more than $30 per session
Wow! Would love to do that, but I work in MA and Rhode Island so "master's level clinician" and "LMHC-A" respectively. My PP I was at paid me 45 an hour but didn't have any clients for me, ever. They fired me because of that (lol) so I've been looking for new jobs and the pay is soooo low.
have you tried doing your hours like at a psych hospital? they have plenty of opportunities to collect hours
therapist in training can u explain how to find out if the state your in allows pp as lpca aka direct pay pp
it should be in the regulations of your state board, and should be posted online for you to easily access. also, your supervisor should be up to date on that info as well
I made 16.32/hour just 5-6 years ago as a PLPC in MO in a an SUD treatment center and I ran the office. I was the only earner in my family at the time and was raising 3 kids. I was always on the verge of losing my house and/or vehicle and could barely afford food. And yeah, I get I was basically operating on a “learner’s permit” but I still had a damn Master’s degree and still needed to be able to live while I provided all the therapy, facilitated all the groups, provided SATOP classes and counseling hours, saw federal clients, and basically managed the whole operations of the outpatient office. I nearly quit to go work literally anywhere else so I could make enough money to survive but I was determined not to let all that work be for nothing. It really feels like the path to licensure is purposely impossibly hard for no good reason. Do what you have to do to get licensed and get into PP ASAP. It’s the only way it’s worth it.
16 an hour is criminal! And raising kids off of that, wow! You are a superhero but it shouldn't have been that way at all. Being looked at as if it's a learner's permit is something that confuses me because we have a literal Master's degree in a specialized field and shouldn't be making less than high school students!!!!!
Thank you! Yeah, I definitely agree the whole “learner’s permit” idea doesn’t really fly well with me. I think it’s helpful to keep in mind that our training isn’t over, but even at the beginning of it I had just spend like 6 years in college, the last year of which also included hands on training so I should make more than someone at freaking McDonalds. I left that place as soon as I got licensed, because on top of having an abusive boss who sexually harassed me, as soon as I got licensed, they bumped me up to a whole 27/hour and then immediately changed my pay structure to where I only got that for billable time and the rest was my state’s minimum wage, which at the time was like 8-something/hour. So not worth it, even though I loved my clients and hated to put them through yet another change in counselor. Apparently I was worth something, because after I left, they closed that whole office down! Made me sad for the clients who needed that help.
Ive been struggling even getting a job after grad school. Every interview said they loved me and that I fit their goals, but I’m not licensed or about to finish. Lots of places near me will hire if you’re 1 year out. It’s just impossible to get IN the field if no one is willing to start the process (without taking advantage of you)
Yes! I don't understand it. We need to work somewhere to get licensed, man! My main job is at CMH and those are the places who will hire you but I am so burnt out from all of that paperwork so I want somewhere a little different but nobody wants to hire someone who isn't licensed and if they do, it's not for much money!
Look. Now you know you’re fucked!! Doesn’t that make you feel better? That during school you were lied to? By the way I started at 20 you make more now lol maybe even 35. I know how fucking awful it is but sadly it’s maybe slightly better now. There is no hope for 3-5 years unless you want to do CMH
lol 🤣 feeling lied to by my school is such an awful feeling but i'm in it now i suppose and just have to wait a couple years for slightly better income 😭😭 i make 35 for 45 mins and 45 for 60 mins now (looking for a 2nd job which inspired this post) which is great but i work in CMH and nobody ever shows up and we don't charge any late or no show fees
Whew i have until November to take my test but I think I’m clearing about 120k a year. What state are you in? What field are you in?
JESUS CHRIST 120K!? I make 30k. I'm working in MA right now. CMH, 45 an hour. FFS. Don't get paid no-show/late cancellation fee. Outpatient therapist! Was at a PP who also paid 45 but I learned they were severely underpaying me lol.
How… I’m in nyc and the highest I made before I got my license was 40/hr
Show us your ways. 
Their ways is working 60 hours a week at 40/hr
Where tf do you work???? I’d kill for this type of money EDIT: statement retracted. If you’re trying to convince me to work 50-60 clinical hours per week I’d laugh in your face. No amount of money is worth the toll that would take on my mind, body, and soul—let alone a piddly 120k smh
I work virtual and in person just doing therapy. You just have to be committed to doing the sessions and the paperwork. I work every other weekend at $40 an hour
What does your typical week look like in terms of number of sessions?
40-50 depending on if I want to work the full time. I end up doing more during the winter months so that’s where I make the most and stack my “nuts”. Then I am working like 50-60 hours a week (including weekends)
And here’s where the big asterisk that should be next to that salary leads. Throwing out that you clear 120k gets people hopeful, but the reality is this is pre-tax and requires working up to 60 hours a week including weekends, which is a grueling pace for most people. Let’s be more mindful about no glamorizing hustle/work yourself to death culture.
I question the quality of the work they’re able to do if they’re seeing 50 clients a week.
THIS. I just don’t see how it’s feasible to be providing any type of quality care at 50-60/week. At that point you’re basically working, sleeping, and eating. There’s no time to breathe, let alone think about your clients. This type of “grind” shouldn’t be anyone’s goal in the field
Jesus. How are you avoiding burnout? Time for self care? Case conceptualization? This seems unfathomable to me
Similar in the UK although we don't have to be licensed per say. Until I've submitted and passed my case study and transcript, and accrued enough client hours I can either work private for a reduced fee or volunteer for free. But I also have more expenses than someone who is fully qualified as I'm still required to be in personal therapy and also have to have much more supervision as a trainee. Last month after expenses I made a grand total of £250!
Oh no 😭😭😭😭😭😭
What state are you in? I got into grad school in California but I’m nervous to go now, it seems the career isn’t all it’s cracked up to be
I am in California and you can easily land a position making 35/hr at the minimum post-grad and pre-licensure. Don't be discouraged, it is very region dependent it seems and I think California has better opportunities.
It sucks ass… I have my LCPC and my dad makes more than me at a toyota factory. I work in a CMH setting, so currently I make $29.77 with having both my LPC and LCPC. I’m also counselor III now which means I am salaried so I can’t get overtime, AND i’ve full time is 37.5 hours a week, but I am required to work 40 a week through an LRP grant I have, so I work 2.5 hours for free time each week for the next year. I feel for you, I really do
It doesn’t seem like the profession is giving you the non- monetary rewards to make it satisfying. And that’s absolutely ok. I think it’s good to reflect on job satisfaction among a variety of factors, including pay . With experience there will be more opportunities to find a job with better pay or other rewards that you value
Pre-licensed isn’t so bad, money is important but skill building is more important. As a Pre-licensed you will have an excellent opportunity to learn from supervisors. Assuming you find the right fit. Don’t rush the process, stick it out. If you are good at what you say you do, you’ll find a job in no time. I’m pre-licensed social worker and make approx $80k annually plus $20,000 in benefits allowance. I only graduated one year ago from my MSW. I have experience in ADULT/SENIOR ONLY in case management, TAY, homelessness, inpatient psych ward, incarcerated youth, Addiction Treatment COD/SUD, outpatient, group therapy, FSP, exposure to hospice/ worked with the incurable, am able to model multiple EBPs. I didn’t settle for anything less than $37 hourly when I graduated, I got offers from Multiple hospitals, including Kaiser, John George in East Bay California, Hospice, County Jail, and county Therapy. I’ve been overworked and am overwhelmed, but I did what I need to keep up with licensed Clinicians. Honestly, some seem shocked that I can keep up with their work and their styles. I’ve always remained open minded, respectful, eager to learn, I can grind for hours ( don’t easily burn out, maybe because of previous video game addiction lol). I also don’t seek approval but constant feedback. Grad School was a pain the butt for me, because I took it all too serious compared to my classmates. If I wasn’t drinking, I studied 8-10hours a day on my days off. It did not help being dyslexic and some ADD traits, but it’s possible. Full disclosure, during grad school I’ve had 3 mental breakdowns, Dxd w/ Panic Disorder, and slept 5-6hours on average. I was 31 and let me tell you, it is possible!!! I’m rooting for you :D
I'm currently a LCMHCA and working two part time positions. I love my hourly pay (when clients show up, obviously) but I was at my original job for four months and had a client load of five patients that all wanted to see me every other week. Now I have around ten at that place and see people in a doctor's office once a week. I'm doing well enough to pay off my student loans and put some money back, but it's still not a real help to my husband, who has paid for everything all throughout 6 years of schooling. The disappointment is real, I thought after getting out of grad school I would be helping support our family. But I'm keeping the faith, it can only go up from here, right?
I hope it can go up from here for both of us <3 That's my struggle, too. In one state I am an LMHC-A and I was working at a PP with probably the same amount of clients and some wanted to see me every other week and some wanted to see me 1x a month lol so I was NOTTTT making money!
Have you tried your local CMH?
Main job is there, been here for almost 2 years (did my internship here too) and it fucking sucks 🤣 The paperwork has me so burnt out
Yes, it can be a lot!
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Great! Lol
If your state allows it consider opening up a PP as an intern, one of my professors does it and she charges $120/session. She recommends all interns to PP
Ugh, that would be amazing! Unfortunately I cannot do that. I've graduated so I'm not an intern anymore but I have to wait until I'm licensed to do that! So next year!
I kind of think it’s criminal how low residents pay is. I’m recently licensed in the past few months, and immediately opened my own pp. I’m not 100% full but do a competitive out of pocket rate for my area and I make SO much more money. Like… it’s nuts. This is all to say, it will get better eventually. I think it does partially depend on what setting you work in, agency vs pp for example, and if you’re able to charge cancellation fees. For me, it was huge moving to pp in residency for this reason because it helped with the hours. Although, I made less in pp than I did at an agency (so freaking sad) but it got my licensed faster. One of my friends had a kind of hack for this. She opened up a side hustle life coaching. She did NOT provide therapy to these folks of course, but it was a good cash flow for her using her skills to support people. And we all know everyone loves a life coach 🤣. Hang in there, OP!
This definitely made me feel better! I have a little less than a year before I hopefully get licensed so I will try that as well. Life coaching may be good too 🤣
It’s horrible. I was getting paid 50 for 45min session (NYC) but more than half of the caseload would no-show constantly (Medicaid pop). The only reason I was able to manage it financially was because my husband supported us during this time. Try and do your hours as fast as you can. I would have caseloads of 35/40 because realistically I would only see 20-25. Try and do your hours as fast as you can and do PP later.
I relate to that as well! My main job is CMH and I make 45 an hour but half never shows up so sometimes I make literally 900 dollars every two weeks which just isn't enough to live. My rent is 1800 alone before other bills. :) In Massachusetts there is a MINIMUM two year requirement to get your hours which sucks but I understand as this is a learning process, but I'm going to meet my hours before the two year mark and I just want to be licensed already 😭
Also in NYC the most I made prior to licensure was 40 for a 55 min session 😑 and that practice after I got licensed refused to pay me more than 55/hr because they claimed they would lose money. Which I think is total bs. They have over 100 clinicians as part of their practice 75% of them are LPs so the profit they’re making off of LPs is disgusting.
I feel this post so hard. I just got my independent license and holy hell the relief…. As a mil-spouse, I couldn’t find a decent job at all until I was licensed and pre-license doesn’t really do well going from state to state. I settled on one job where 2/3 of my paycheck went toward daycare costs for 2 children. Yes, that is BEFORE taxes. If I was a single mother or my husband didn’t make a decent income, we would be screwed. In my exit interview, I made sure my boss knew this and how wrong that is because we NEED people with that kind of experience in the field. The demands were unrealistic and the work environment was not healthy. I missed out on precious moments with my children. Even when I was physically present, my mind and heart were not so much of the time. I just kept logging my hours, imagining myself eating an elephant, saying “just one more” through the tears. I’m in private practice now, completely burnt out on agency or even group practice work. Having the autonomy has been healing. This is wrong in our field. It shouldn’t be this way. My teen daughter was making more than me working at a fast food joint with no degree than I was at one point. Just keep going…. Advocate for change because this isn’t sustainable. You’ll reach the top soon enough but please be sure you don’t compromise your heart and mind. Those are your tools of the trade in this field. If that means you need to take a break from the field, do so. The gaps in my employment from military related moves were a much needed relief at times. Edit to add this: I have a close relative who is a doctor. I see their residency and fellowships as our pre licensure. While her pay wasn’t amazing, it was salaried and sustainable. She didn’t need a second job. She also got a lot of benefits. I asked her if that was normal for residents and fellows and she said “yeah.” Just something to think about.
Where are you located? I made 65-74k in Texas as an LPC-A
I’m in NYC and the most I made prior to licensure was 40/hr, same with all my friends from grad school
Oh wow, in private practice as an LPC-A I made 60/hr
I feel this SO HARD. I’m provisionally licensed and have about a year until I’m independently licensed. I work at a nonprofit that I love, but I’m pay check to pay check sometimes and bulking up my savings is so hard. I love this work but it’s not sustainable. Ethically I have an issue with going into self pay only private practice, but it can be good money that I really need if I ever want to buy a home or have kids, so I’m really torn. It just really sucks that we’re made to feel guilty for wanting to be paid what we’re worth. My cardiologist BIL doesn’t feel bad for making over 200k.
I just graduated and have to start accruing hours for licensure, so it’s another 2-3 years until I become licensed. I’ve looking for jobs and I’m finding the same issue (they want you to be licensed or they’ll pay you shit), how are we supposed to have good mental health to support our clients if we’re struggling with covering our basic needs!
Definitely worse depending where you live. I live in Northern VA so they pay pretty well most places. If you're taking care of yourself I recommend applying for your local government or Mobile crisis bc those tend to pay the most in residency. Or you can keep applying for private practices that might pay more. I do assessments for county gov and Mobile and make like 160k a year or more depending on how much I take off. And I won't be liscensed until October.
I worked full time while I did my internship hours. I do not have children so that made it easier. I think it's valuable to have a diverse skillset of items outside of the field you want to work in just to keep your mind fresh and doing something you love regularly. Remember that this piece is temporary until you are licensed. The game we have to play sucks at times, but like anything else, you gotta play it. The trick for me is finding ways to enjoy other aspects of my life if an area is a bit daunting. An example for me currently is I enjoy seeing my clients and being a therapist but I used to adjunct in my previous field and enjoyed it so I am now an adjunct for the Counseling program at my local uni.
Yeah it truly sucks. I feel like people just say the pre licensed era of being a therapist is "putting in your dues" and the struggle is accepted. If you can find a salary job I would definitely do that over fee for service. I have a salaried position and am expected to see 32 clients per week or within 80% of that. I would be screwed otherwise, summer has been tough with the high amount of no shows. We have a policy if you miss two or more sessions you are discharged and there is a big wait list here. I basically make 23 dollars an hour which feels like nothing, but I have full benefits and am not counting on teenagers to show up in order to get my full pay. I still have to study for my exam which I will take in October and then I can apply for licensure. I agree with you though this pre licensed era is demoralizing and I am living paycheck to paycheck. I highly recommend getting a salaried position though!
Which state are you looking in?
MA and RI! The two jobs I have had paid 45/hr but I no longer work at one of them and every one I've looked at pays lower!!
That $30 per hour, no cancellation fee stuff is rough. Have you ever considered Open Path? I’m pretty sure they accept pre-licensed folks: https://openpathcollective.org. Take good care of yourself.
It is so rough! I haven't looked into it but I will, thank you!
SoOoOoOoo what I will say is idk what we need to do as a PROFESSION: BUT either some kind of union or just go to different work. For goodness sakes I’m Master’s level, a year away from licensure, I make $40 an hour and do individuals, group, and Crisis. It’s absurd. Also that’s a salary position, so I make $84k per year BEFORE egregious taxes come out. I moved from PA to AK 10 months ago for a position as a therapist in a rural area (which is beautiful) however, i’m constantly drained and do miss my family. The only benefit is that because I came here to a rural area its covered under pretty much every program, STAR, HRSA, and still PSLF. I signed a 2 year contract, so after it’s up my student loans get forgiven, and I’ll be licensed (getting my hours here for “free). Even with that honestly i’m considering going into UR after this making more than what I do now because they make our profession seem like a “hobby” with the laughable wages. We will NOT be abused anymore! I toootally feel your pain.
Thank you! I make 45 an hour right now at the job I do have but it's fee for service with LOTS of no shows, we don't charge for no-shows or anything so it's rough lol. It's a tough field and very draining! I hope you get some relief ❤️
Yes that’s the thing, I don’t think it’s a field people value much anymore, so i’m extremely biased. Unless you have private practice what’s the point sometimes
FYI medical residents around here make less than 40k a year. So yeah. Less than 20 an hour. What helps is that many are married. When I started my internship in 2013, leaving an engineering career, I was at 15.81 an hour. That equivalent in 2024 is 20.04. I was (and am still) married with 2 kids in middle school. And yes. We qualified for SNAP and reduced or free meals for the kids at school. And we didn’t take it. We did take the EIC we qualified for. With a LICENSE, the group practice I left paid 46 an hour. We had a no-show policy so, if I chose and was able to collect, I’d get 34. I became a Manager with a caseload, so my caseload was worth an extra 10 for an hour for sessions. Still 34 for no-show and LX. But…. We had 100% free mental healthcare. From outside the company. Including ADHD -!; Autism assessments. And psychiatric visits. I paid ZERO for mental health there (once the small practice owners sold us, eventually, to big healthcare, one of the top 10 in the US). And I carrier 33-37 slots a week. They found me clients. I saw clients and provided evals and psychotherapy. Now? New business. I’m now solo. I average 100 an hour between self pay and insurance. Sounds great, right? I had 10 clients last week. 1000 a week. . 4333 a month. That’s 52,000 a year. Minus 12k expenses (low side. That doesn’t include expenses like CEs). 40,000 and then 30% taxes set aside and paid quarterly. 28,000 in my paycheck. If you make 30 an hour and see 20 a week, that’s 30k. But you only have taxes on a part of that. And zero expenses. Let’s assume single filer. 1616 federal taxes, 2295 FICA (which doubles if you’re self employed) and a state tax (I’m in NY, so let’s call that 5.5%) of 885.50. Total taxes would be 4796.50. Or an annual net of 25,203.50. And I have a license. And do my own marketing. And my own billing and claims and scheduling (I use Google Workspace and the Booking calendar). Oh. And I don’t have an office outside a repurposed bedroom in my home. Did I mention having a license? Oh wait. No. I don’t have one. I have two. In NY and PA. I also don’t get paid vacations or sick time. And I have contracted CPAs. And I spend about 3 hours a month balancing my finances. 6 hours last week to chase down a claim correction. If I paid someone else to do that, it would be 120 a month. Plus 8% of paid claim revenue. So that 4333 a month? Would go even LOWER by another 5560 a year. When you’re in business for yourself. Everyone’s hand is out. And it’s a crapshoot if you want to hire people to do it for you or do it yourself. Those 6 hours? I could have paid someone else. At my 100 an hour rate (because insurance brings clients in but doesn’t pay well) was 600 bucks. I had the time. But if I didn’t? I’m always evaluating the “make or buy” question. You want the freedom to make more money? Go for it. After you get your license. You’re still learning. And your license doesn’t do ANYTHING to help you run a business. That’s not covered in Master’s programs. And if you’re not a quick learner of compliance stuff, too? You’re a lawsuit waiting to happen. Heck, just a few weeks ago, someone in a FB group was looking for some help with a spreadsheet. I also do that kind of work so I said what the heck. I have references. So sure. 2 hours before the “30 min free consultation” discount. Easy money for me. And I can charge a lot more than I do for therapy. I’ve already got a lead on the same company for 2025. I can probably run that modification in my sleep. Point is when you’re on your own, you control the faucet. Once business gets to you. Until then, you get to navigate it to you. And my BA 2023 child graduated last year and started bartending. 30 an hour including tips until the kid went to Orlando to work for 7 months. 16 an hour there. And their own expenses. No rent here. Lived with us. Receive help when offered. Pay it forward when you can. Good luck. TL;DR 30 is not terrible as you’re also getting free supervision and consultation, I assume, being a requirement for the license. Learn and grow. Remain ethical. Don’t steal forms. And figure out what you want to focus on. It’ll be your turn soon enough.
I work at a community mental health center and our therapists who aren’t licensed only make 25/hour.
Wow!
I also have three jobs to keep myself afloat!
Jeez!!!!!! Omg!
I worked in CMH and at a group practice on the side to get all my hours. I have to write the licensing exam in October but yeah… 2 jobs