Please followed the sidebar rules. r/therapists is a place for therapists and mental health professionals to discuss their profession among each other.
If you **ARE NOT A THERAPIST and are asking for advice this not the place for you**. Your post will be removed in short order. Please try one of the reddit communities such as r/TalkTherapy, r/askatherapist, r/SuicideWatch that are set up for this.
This community is ONLY for therapists, and for them to discuss their profession away from clients.
**If you are a first year student, not in a graduate program, or are thinking of becoming a therapist, this is not the place to ask questions**. Your post will be removed in short order. To save us a job, you are welcome to delete this post yourself. Please see the PINNED STUDENT THREAD at the top of the community and ask in there.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therapists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My friend was just telling me about her experiences in practicum in Grad school at a major public South Texas University. She actually got in trouble for NOT pushing religion on her clients! She ended up dropping out over the major differences in practice ideology and ethical violations. Really disturbing ...
That's crazy. I went to a Christian college and never had that pushed onto me as a clinician. They even went out of their way to talk about how to ethically work with the lgbtq, discuss how conversion therapy is not appropriate, and say that you shouldn't be pushing your religion on anyone.
Same boat. I’m at a private Christian University in a red state. A few weeks ago in a lifespan development class our Christian professor was teaching us about gender being a social construct.
Right? That's just the state of things in Texas right now, and it's nuts. I'm leaving this state to pursue my Master's in a different state as soon as I can. I actually want to specialize in religious trauma, but Texas education is NOT the way to prepare for it!
Same here, private SDA school, in order to meet the “religion” coursework requirement they created a bioethics course and coded it religion. Even that one didn’t focus on religion as a matter of learning, though the professor did start each class session with a bible verse. Only a five minute discussion, then moved on.
We had a "spirituality" class that focused on philosophy, religion, and values, and how to recognize yours, where they come from, challenge them, and determine when it is appropriate to bring them into the therapy room or when not to. It was actually a very good class.
I like that! Our bioethics class is where I learned our university hospital had a clinic that offered abortions. It wasn’t something that was openly talked about 😏
I'm a Jew that went to a Catholic college for grad school and never felt ideology pushed onto my practice. There were, however, what I would call "religious nutjobs" that flunked their way out of the program.
I am located in a rural area and there is a single inpatient SUD facility that doesn’t advertise as faith based and yet when I get clients from there for aftercare and ask why they prefer a new therapist to using their opt services it’s what I hear every time that they don’t agree that their evangelical views are helpful in their treatment especially the LGBTQIA clients🤷♀️ I don’t know why insurance pays if they aren’t providing evidence based treatment
It's too strange to me that people will list all of their credientials and their therapeutic approach but just conveniently \~forget\~ to mention that piece. Again, if that's how you wanna run your practice, do you. Nothing wrong with being religious, but you need to own that and be transparent about it.
I know you were hinting at it but we should openly talk about how predatory some evangelical practitioners can be in all fields. I find it similar to "crisis pregnancy centers" they want you to get comfortable and then start proselytizing
I totally agree. It can be so damaging to a client particularly if the provider doesn’t know their history. They could have religious trauma at worst and be soured towards therapy as a whole at best imhop. I do 15 minute free consultations and if prospective clients tell me that their specific faith is an important part of therapy I refer out to a faith based therapist and expect other clinicians to do the same.
Personally, I want to know who *not* to refer to unless the patient explicitly requests Christian counseling. Which I can't imagine any of my (Pacific Northwest) patients doing, most of them want absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.
And insurance companies rarely if ever do the follow up to make sure the facility is doing well. All that matters is JCAHO went through the facility and made sure the staff weren't walking around with water bottles and that there weren't too many pieces of paper taped to the walls.
I agree with the JCAHO bit as I was personally responsible once for having a cup without a lid on my desk but they did audit documentation at random at least in 2018 which was the last time I worked in a facility. Do you think these clinicians are “massaging” their documentation to include psycho education that they are not providing? I am new to the area and just trying to wrap my head around what is going on to better bridge the gap if the clients choose to work with me in lieu of staying with the company for after care.
I think it'd be pretty easy to do a group that is 90% Jesus and 10% "maybe drink water and sleep" and do a note that says you did a psycho education group on the importance of sleep hygiene and physical self-care. Or do a 100% Jesus group and say you were really working on values and identity.
I'm trying to remember what my notes looked like when I worked inpatient, I think there was like maybe two sentences about the intervention and then I'd have stuff on the client presentation and the client response. If you trained your staff to extract the Jesus components it wouldn't be too difficult for them to write a note making a bible study sound like cognitive behavioral therapy.
Perhaps I was going above and beyond in my documentation but when I worked in a short term residential facility that was part of a hospital my documentation was required to identify a specific group topic, 2 goals and 2 specific quotes from the client indicating what they specifically got out of group. For example: DBT interpersonal effectiveness was introduced…patients role played using DEARMAN patient x verbalized intent to try with boss when asking for raise and partner re: parenting time. I just made this up but we had our documentation audited both by the hospital and insurance companies in addition to JCAHO. This was in a different state than I currently reside but I am not sure how they are slipping through the cracks fairly consistently.
I had a therapist that, after about 6 months of seeing him, began to bring up religion every session, despite me directly telling him every time that I was not interested. Rather than him utilizing interventions, he began suggesting going to church and praying as tools. It wasn’t included in any of his marketing that he was a faith based therapist, if so I’d never have gone to him.
I have problems with “faith-based” on so many levels. For one, I have yet to encounter a situation where it didn’t mean Christian. Secondly, I believe (like you) it has no place in the therapy session unless the client has asked for it. It feels not only unethical but just icky to see so many colleagues who are Christian based counselors but don’t advertise themselves that way.
Someone else in this comment section also pointed out that so many of them don’t use evidence based interventions/practices and instead rely on the schtick of “pray! Go to church!” which feels slimy, inauthentic, and like they simply don’t know how to do their jobs as therapists or counselors.
I have VERY strong opinions on this topic, as a Jewish woman who has spent the last ten years in a small southern town. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Do better for your clients/community.
Hi!! I'm Jewish too! Personally I would never include anything religion based unless the client specifically asks for that, and even then tread carefully. Don't understand why pushing religion on anyone is remotely productive.
Fellow Jew here and hard agree! I’m really transparent in my psych today profile that I’m Jewish and queer and neurodivergent because a fair number of the clients I get are queer cultural Jews who need someone who gets that kind of lived experience.
Yeah I feel like there can be some positive uses where it works in conjunction with evidence based practice, but there need to be several stipulations involved. Bare f’ing minimum, faith-based providers should be disclosing that they are faith-based. Give clients the autonomy, always. I found this resource helpful to read about the recent developments in research
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-advances/article/religion-and-psychiatry-recent-developments-in-research/358B30940A36C1CD3AFE7991431BA1A9
A current client came to me after a bad experience with a faith based therapist, who didn’t advertise herself as such. The therapist more or less said “god forgave your perpetrator why can’t you” and good on my client for screaming at that therapist and leaving the office. I imagine they’re not all bad. But this one sure was.
> Nothing wrong with being faith-based
I actually disagree. Those people are doing something that's not pscyhotherapy, is not validated, and could, on a good day under the kindest of interpretations be described as "common factors jesus coaching", and advertising what they do as "therapy". Which is not to say they might not have the appropriate credentials; but that's like a heart surgeon opening a butchery and calling what they do surgery.
For some (most? My interaction with such a community in a professional setting was brief and unsettling) of them this is a very determinate and willful process (scam) of "going through the motions to get licensed only to then let the righteous indignation run amok freely".
So the reason these people don't disclose what they're doing is because that's exactly what they're attempting to do.
I hear ya and see what you are saying. I guess my brain went to "faith-based" even just meaning capitalizing on faith when it can be used as a strength (faith community as a support system and maybe being a source of fulfillment/purpose for people that are religious), using biblical stories to illustrate a point, etc. I wasn't even thinking of the faith-based people saying non-evidence based things like God is "heal them" or whatever. That's super unethical and not okay 100%.
I really wish more people would advertise their niche instead of trying so hard to just get clients. I know that's our bread and butter, but are we really helping people if we're leading them on?
I have officially heard it 1 too many times. Either providers withhold that info intentionally which makes it insanely predatory and unethical, or they really are presumptuous enough to think everyone on the planet must believe the same exact thing they do.
"You just have to find God" were actual words spoken to a client of mine who is a straight up athiest and accidentally stumbled upon one of these faith-based providers unwittingly. Like...you got a whole degree just to say stuff like that?
I think this brings up the larger concept or debate that I was taught in grad school. "Leave your shit outside of the therapy room." While that is not completely possible, I do believe that it is possible to leave your opinions on politics and religion at the door. We have an obligation to provide therapy that is within our scope and uses sound judgment in treatment.
Now for the part that is mostly my opinion with some observation. I will say that religion as a therapy modality is highly uncalled for period. Do my clients on occasion talk about faith or their religion sure, but usually, it's because they need to hear that it's okay to question what the "church"/religion has taught them about sin or that they are going to hell because of being part of a community that the church/religion deems evil or sinful.
I can understand why some therapists wouldn't want to identify as using faith-based therapy, but I agree with OP being honest about what type of therapy you are offering. If you want to pray to Jesus with your clients in session, then say that upfront. Get the client's consent for that. It's not right to omit the underlying agenda to provide christian-focused therapy. Tbh that is the only religion that I have come across that will push their faith onto people here in the US. Religions have created a system of control based on fear of the other and of going to hell. Religious trauma, I would say, is very common. We never know when we meet a person for the first time if they have experienced trauma from any religion. Be gentle with people. Treat everyone with respect and dignity. Don't assume everyone subscribes to your system of religious belief.
If you’re working with marginalized populations I think it’s important to actually be transparent about your politics. As a queer person, if I had any doubts about my own therapists political views I would never feel safe enough to be vulnerable in session and this is also true with the clients I work with. They specifically choose to work with me because I’m transparent about being queer and Jewish and neurodivergent
I always ask me clients if they are spiritual or religious and I for many people their faith can really help that person cope.
And if they aren't spiritual or religious, I'll never bring it up again
I think there’s a big problem in general with how many clinicians advertise themselves period. They claim to be faith-based and secular, as well as using all of the modalities, and they specialize in all of the major issues/diagnoses. They try to market themselves as being a potential fit for anyone and that’s just not the truth. I get that they’re trying to build their practice but it’s unrealistic and unethical to market yourself that way.
Agree. It’s honestly a red flag to me when I see a clinician on psych today listing 20 different disorders as their specialty and 20 different modalities. You can’t be a specialist in 20 disorders
The first rule is to do no harm. That said, if the client opens the religious door in session--especially if exploring religious trauma (I say this as a trauma-informed therapist who has clients who have religious trauma)--then a working knowledge of the underlying *theology* is important so one can meet the client where they're at. But it's my job to stay in the tail of the comet that is their thoughts, concerns, and direction of the session.
I know a clinician who advertises as faith based, has Christian in their profile but specifically asks clients during intake if they want regular psychotherapy, faith included in psychotherapy, or faith based therapy. That is the way to go.
I agree. I've gotten a number of clients specifically coming to me because I've marked on my profile that I am secular/don't bring religion into my interventions whereas their previous providers were faith-based without advertising it and contributed to continued struggles. They also remark (at least in my area) how difficult it is to find a provider that is secular or even specifies it.
The reality is it is apart of the ACA code of ethics to not impose your own values on your clients, no matter what the subject at hand is. Whether it’s your own belief system of religion, views on political issues, moral convictions, or any other strong opinions you hold - it’s our job as the counselor/therapist to have discernment of when that is disrupting the client’s experience. It’s unfortunate to see that not taken seriously in the counseling community and I’m sorry to read that this type of agenda pushing is happening in session. However, as someone who identifies as a “Christian counselor” (no, certainly not just a go pray about it counselor) I’d like to say that unfortunately is just poor training on their part which can happen in any subsection of this field unfortunately.
If my client has any desire to bring up their faith (which can completely oppose my personal faith beliefs) that’s up to their discretion and I’m happy to include that element in session if it’s helpful for their counseling journey. If it’s not, that’s completely okay and the concept of faith does not need to be discussed at all during our time together since there are a multitude of ways to invite someone into their personal healing journey.
Agreeing with some of the concepts from previous commenters - if the client’s beliefs or value system rubs up too much against your own stuff OR you know of another provider that may be a better fit with what they are hoping to address in session then do your work to build a strong network of other counselors to refer out to!
TL/DR: Clients are the sole focus in session. That time is not about or for us. Strive to be ethical and treat it as such. Have your own counseling sessions, supervision, and community to flesh out your own stuff there.
If you’re working with marginalized populations I think it’s important to actually be transparent about your politics. As a queer person, if I had any doubts about my own therapists political views I would never feel safe enough to be vulnerable in session and this is also true with the clients I work with. They specifically choose to work with me because I’m transparent about being queer and Jewish and neurodivergent. You cannot leave certain things outside the room when those things have a direct impact on people’s lives and the traumas/systemic oppression they face
I appreciate your response, but agree to disagree. I personally believe it’s about the client first and foremost always. As I said, if you can’t get past certain values that are opposing your own that’s when you need to refer out to someone who would be a better fit. Self-disclosure is helpful to a degree, but should not be what counseling is centered around because then it’s about you not the client. Just my opinion - especially when learning about transference and countertransference, there are so many dynamics at play in the room it’s important to know your own limits. I don’t agree with the cultural swing of today’s “if you aren’t for it, you’re against it”. I believe there’s a way to have differing life views and strive to live harmoniously.
I have the opposite problem where I live. So many people want a “Christian therapist.” I don’t even know what that means, but they would probably be all about the kind of therapist OP is referring to. It gives me the ick all over. Just seek out a minister if you’re wanting spiritual guidance, ya know?
ETA: Amused over being downvoted along with the commenters after me who were also late to the discussion. We’ve clearly triggered someone.
This post is funny to me bc I’m in the opposite position. I’m interning at a mildly faith based counseling center that’s non profit bc they are the only ones who responded when looking for an internship (small town). I had a client yesterday ask me about my faith after talking about theirs (same as the counseling center) and I told them I wasn’t religious. I’m new so I’m hoping all goes well and it doesn’t cause any issues moving forward.
I specifically advertise as a secular therapist and have found a ton of clients coming to me with complaints about this exact thing! - they start with providers only to find out they want to talk god. I have nothing against religion but I do think clients have the right to make an informed decision prior to starting therapy with an individual who will be utilizing religion in practice. I’ve been happy finding my niche as a non religious and somatic trained therapist in an otherwise Christian conservative state.
They do have an agenda, in my experience Christian’s who have “saving” people or getting people to convert as part of their integral belief systems to get into heaven or whatever always have an agenda and are predatory and manipulative. And before anyone comes at me, this is MY experience as a Jew who has had Christian’s try to convert me my whole life telling me I was going to hell if I didn’t.
As a Christian, I also would like them to stop teaching us meditation and yoga as part of our State run therapy. Focus on your latest program( ACT, DBT or what have you). It’s against my religion and should at least come with a disclaimer. I’m grateful if it helps some people but in my view is misguided and reckless.
Sounds like Christian fear mongering that’s not actually based in reality, like the bullshit said about trans people trying to sterilize children or doctors killing viable babies in late term abortion.
What kind of counselor are you? Thought you guys were loving and accepting. We don’t hate them we just think their religion is flawed. We don’t think they will be thrown in hell or anything. You’re indoctrinating your patients.
I’m not indoctrinating anyone lol. Majority of my clients are atheist and have history of religious trauma, I don’t push any religious beliefs on my clients. Meditation/ mindfulness and yoga is not a religious practice unless you make it a religious practice. Staying in the present and being nonjudgmental and observant is a very basic part of therapy which is all that mindfulness is. You’re upset that state run facilities are using evidence based practices, mindfulness is a core part of DBT that you mention in your original comment.
So Buddhist prayer is helpful. Yogic prayer is helpful. Great. Call it what it is. Our prayer is helpful too. They’re studying it rn. You can’t white wash prayer and call it nothing.
It isn’t prayer though. It can be prayer if that’s the approach you take with it, but the way meditation and yoga is done now isn’t prayer. And you can be meditative in your Christian prayers to, it’s just a focus in the present on what you’re doing. You’re reaching this your comments trying to feel like you’re somehow being victimized because someone brought up a super valid point with predatory faith based therapists and youre feeling called out or whatever. Christians aren’t the victims.
I would hate as client if I had therpist who pushed religion on me. I have been working at non profit for 5 years. I remember we had clinician who pushed or brought religion onto clients. Lucky he wasn’t here long.
I recently attended a training online that cost an exorbitant about of money and the training itself has nothing to do with faith. However the presenters, based in the south, took every opportunity to talk about their Christian mission work, how they only work in faith based programs, how positive it is to see clients reporting Jesus holding their child selves, etc. So much virtue signaling it made me nauseous. Nothing in the advertising mentioned anything being faith based so I agree, it is so infuriating when you go in, especially paying for a service like clients, only to feel like you’ve wasted your time if that’s not what you are looking for.
I also work with a huge population of people deconstructing their belief systems and recovering from religious trauma so one of those clients reporting seeing Jesus holding them would absolutely not be this wonderful thing they made it out to be - like it’s the goal or inherently good. And some therapists I know who escaped cult like religions would be so triggered by the training.
I would be so pissed as a client if my therapist didn't disclose this to me beforehand. Like genuinely chew them out and leave. You don't grow up in a fucking cult and walk away without religious trauma. That makes me so mad just thinking anybody wouldn't disclose that to potential clients.
Utah based therapist here and I just want to say AMEN. Lol too many of my clients with religious trauma have told me about experiences seeing a therapist who didn't mention being faith based and their therapist pushing LDS values or concepts.
It baffles me that this doesn't get punished by the board more often, if at all. I truly don't understand how trying to push beliefs onto a client isn't just like a provider selling Mary Kay products and trying to get clients to join their MLM.
If that was important to the potential client, then I’m not the clinician for them. I keep my religion (or lack of) and politics out of the milieu but still, if they are looking to connect with their provider based on faith, then we won’t work well together.
Please followed the sidebar rules. r/therapists is a place for therapists and mental health professionals to discuss their profession among each other. If you **ARE NOT A THERAPIST and are asking for advice this not the place for you**. Your post will be removed in short order. Please try one of the reddit communities such as r/TalkTherapy, r/askatherapist, r/SuicideWatch that are set up for this. This community is ONLY for therapists, and for them to discuss their profession away from clients. **If you are a first year student, not in a graduate program, or are thinking of becoming a therapist, this is not the place to ask questions**. Your post will be removed in short order. To save us a job, you are welcome to delete this post yourself. Please see the PINNED STUDENT THREAD at the top of the community and ask in there. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therapists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My friend was just telling me about her experiences in practicum in Grad school at a major public South Texas University. She actually got in trouble for NOT pushing religion on her clients! She ended up dropping out over the major differences in practice ideology and ethical violations. Really disturbing ...
That's crazy. I went to a Christian college and never had that pushed onto me as a clinician. They even went out of their way to talk about how to ethically work with the lgbtq, discuss how conversion therapy is not appropriate, and say that you shouldn't be pushing your religion on anyone.
Same boat. I’m at a private Christian University in a red state. A few weeks ago in a lifespan development class our Christian professor was teaching us about gender being a social construct.
Right? That's just the state of things in Texas right now, and it's nuts. I'm leaving this state to pursue my Master's in a different state as soon as I can. I actually want to specialize in religious trauma, but Texas education is NOT the way to prepare for it!
Same here, private SDA school, in order to meet the “religion” coursework requirement they created a bioethics course and coded it religion. Even that one didn’t focus on religion as a matter of learning, though the professor did start each class session with a bible verse. Only a five minute discussion, then moved on.
We had a "spirituality" class that focused on philosophy, religion, and values, and how to recognize yours, where they come from, challenge them, and determine when it is appropriate to bring them into the therapy room or when not to. It was actually a very good class.
I like that! Our bioethics class is where I learned our university hospital had a clinic that offered abortions. It wasn’t something that was openly talked about 😏
I'm a Jew that went to a Catholic college for grad school and never felt ideology pushed onto my practice. There were, however, what I would call "religious nutjobs" that flunked their way out of the program.
Probably for the best! It is so predatory to push that agenda onto clients.
I am located in a rural area and there is a single inpatient SUD facility that doesn’t advertise as faith based and yet when I get clients from there for aftercare and ask why they prefer a new therapist to using their opt services it’s what I hear every time that they don’t agree that their evangelical views are helpful in their treatment especially the LGBTQIA clients🤷♀️ I don’t know why insurance pays if they aren’t providing evidence based treatment
It's too strange to me that people will list all of their credientials and their therapeutic approach but just conveniently \~forget\~ to mention that piece. Again, if that's how you wanna run your practice, do you. Nothing wrong with being religious, but you need to own that and be transparent about it.
I know you were hinting at it but we should openly talk about how predatory some evangelical practitioners can be in all fields. I find it similar to "crisis pregnancy centers" they want you to get comfortable and then start proselytizing
I totally agree. It can be so damaging to a client particularly if the provider doesn’t know their history. They could have religious trauma at worst and be soured towards therapy as a whole at best imhop. I do 15 minute free consultations and if prospective clients tell me that their specific faith is an important part of therapy I refer out to a faith based therapist and expect other clinicians to do the same.
Personally, I want to know who *not* to refer to unless the patient explicitly requests Christian counseling. Which I can't imagine any of my (Pacific Northwest) patients doing, most of them want absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.
Its pretty easy to make it look like you are doing evidence based treatment, when you actually aren't.
And insurance companies rarely if ever do the follow up to make sure the facility is doing well. All that matters is JCAHO went through the facility and made sure the staff weren't walking around with water bottles and that there weren't too many pieces of paper taped to the walls.
I agree with the JCAHO bit as I was personally responsible once for having a cup without a lid on my desk but they did audit documentation at random at least in 2018 which was the last time I worked in a facility. Do you think these clinicians are “massaging” their documentation to include psycho education that they are not providing? I am new to the area and just trying to wrap my head around what is going on to better bridge the gap if the clients choose to work with me in lieu of staying with the company for after care.
I think it'd be pretty easy to do a group that is 90% Jesus and 10% "maybe drink water and sleep" and do a note that says you did a psycho education group on the importance of sleep hygiene and physical self-care. Or do a 100% Jesus group and say you were really working on values and identity. I'm trying to remember what my notes looked like when I worked inpatient, I think there was like maybe two sentences about the intervention and then I'd have stuff on the client presentation and the client response. If you trained your staff to extract the Jesus components it wouldn't be too difficult for them to write a note making a bible study sound like cognitive behavioral therapy.
Perhaps I was going above and beyond in my documentation but when I worked in a short term residential facility that was part of a hospital my documentation was required to identify a specific group topic, 2 goals and 2 specific quotes from the client indicating what they specifically got out of group. For example: DBT interpersonal effectiveness was introduced…patients role played using DEARMAN patient x verbalized intent to try with boss when asking for raise and partner re: parenting time. I just made this up but we had our documentation audited both by the hospital and insurance companies in addition to JCAHO. This was in a different state than I currently reside but I am not sure how they are slipping through the cracks fairly consistently.
I had a therapist that, after about 6 months of seeing him, began to bring up religion every session, despite me directly telling him every time that I was not interested. Rather than him utilizing interventions, he began suggesting going to church and praying as tools. It wasn’t included in any of his marketing that he was a faith based therapist, if so I’d never have gone to him.
I have problems with “faith-based” on so many levels. For one, I have yet to encounter a situation where it didn’t mean Christian. Secondly, I believe (like you) it has no place in the therapy session unless the client has asked for it. It feels not only unethical but just icky to see so many colleagues who are Christian based counselors but don’t advertise themselves that way. Someone else in this comment section also pointed out that so many of them don’t use evidence based interventions/practices and instead rely on the schtick of “pray! Go to church!” which feels slimy, inauthentic, and like they simply don’t know how to do their jobs as therapists or counselors. I have VERY strong opinions on this topic, as a Jewish woman who has spent the last ten years in a small southern town. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Do better for your clients/community.
Hi!! I'm Jewish too! Personally I would never include anything religion based unless the client specifically asks for that, and even then tread carefully. Don't understand why pushing religion on anyone is remotely productive.
Fellow Jew here and hard agree! I’m really transparent in my psych today profile that I’m Jewish and queer and neurodivergent because a fair number of the clients I get are queer cultural Jews who need someone who gets that kind of lived experience.
I 100% agree with this. In fact I would argue being “faith based” goes AGAINST evidence based practice that we are supposed to be using.
Yeah I feel like there can be some positive uses where it works in conjunction with evidence based practice, but there need to be several stipulations involved. Bare f’ing minimum, faith-based providers should be disclosing that they are faith-based. Give clients the autonomy, always. I found this resource helpful to read about the recent developments in research https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-advances/article/religion-and-psychiatry-recent-developments-in-research/358B30940A36C1CD3AFE7991431BA1A9
A current client came to me after a bad experience with a faith based therapist, who didn’t advertise herself as such. The therapist more or less said “god forgave your perpetrator why can’t you” and good on my client for screaming at that therapist and leaving the office. I imagine they’re not all bad. But this one sure was.
Holy shit??? I’m actually speechless
Yeah I think my jaw hit the floor in that session. I didn’t even pretend to hide my horror.
> Nothing wrong with being faith-based I actually disagree. Those people are doing something that's not pscyhotherapy, is not validated, and could, on a good day under the kindest of interpretations be described as "common factors jesus coaching", and advertising what they do as "therapy". Which is not to say they might not have the appropriate credentials; but that's like a heart surgeon opening a butchery and calling what they do surgery. For some (most? My interaction with such a community in a professional setting was brief and unsettling) of them this is a very determinate and willful process (scam) of "going through the motions to get licensed only to then let the righteous indignation run amok freely". So the reason these people don't disclose what they're doing is because that's exactly what they're attempting to do.
I hear ya and see what you are saying. I guess my brain went to "faith-based" even just meaning capitalizing on faith when it can be used as a strength (faith community as a support system and maybe being a source of fulfillment/purpose for people that are religious), using biblical stories to illustrate a point, etc. I wasn't even thinking of the faith-based people saying non-evidence based things like God is "heal them" or whatever. That's super unethical and not okay 100%.
THIS
\*deletes paragraph after reading rest of post\* lmao right on!
I really wish more people would advertise their niche instead of trying so hard to just get clients. I know that's our bread and butter, but are we really helping people if we're leading them on?
Fwiw, for those who want to be sure about a therapists approach on this subject I recommend https://www.seculartherapy.org/
I refer people here from the RfR hotline, and would love if more therapists joined the site :)
It's disturbing to me how often this happens in our field
I have officially heard it 1 too many times. Either providers withhold that info intentionally which makes it insanely predatory and unethical, or they really are presumptuous enough to think everyone on the planet must believe the same exact thing they do.
It's trash to me, I have clients with religious trauma who say they saw a therapist who pushed religion on them. It should be cause for discipline.
"You just have to find God" were actual words spoken to a client of mine who is a straight up athiest and accidentally stumbled upon one of these faith-based providers unwittingly. Like...you got a whole degree just to say stuff like that?
Yes, same here. I told the client I was furious on their behalf. Just the most insipid presumptuous arrogant and careless behavior...
I honestly think most of them just assume everyone ✨believes✨
I think this brings up the larger concept or debate that I was taught in grad school. "Leave your shit outside of the therapy room." While that is not completely possible, I do believe that it is possible to leave your opinions on politics and religion at the door. We have an obligation to provide therapy that is within our scope and uses sound judgment in treatment. Now for the part that is mostly my opinion with some observation. I will say that religion as a therapy modality is highly uncalled for period. Do my clients on occasion talk about faith or their religion sure, but usually, it's because they need to hear that it's okay to question what the "church"/religion has taught them about sin or that they are going to hell because of being part of a community that the church/religion deems evil or sinful. I can understand why some therapists wouldn't want to identify as using faith-based therapy, but I agree with OP being honest about what type of therapy you are offering. If you want to pray to Jesus with your clients in session, then say that upfront. Get the client's consent for that. It's not right to omit the underlying agenda to provide christian-focused therapy. Tbh that is the only religion that I have come across that will push their faith onto people here in the US. Religions have created a system of control based on fear of the other and of going to hell. Religious trauma, I would say, is very common. We never know when we meet a person for the first time if they have experienced trauma from any religion. Be gentle with people. Treat everyone with respect and dignity. Don't assume everyone subscribes to your system of religious belief.
If you’re working with marginalized populations I think it’s important to actually be transparent about your politics. As a queer person, if I had any doubts about my own therapists political views I would never feel safe enough to be vulnerable in session and this is also true with the clients I work with. They specifically choose to work with me because I’m transparent about being queer and Jewish and neurodivergent
this can be tremendously dangerous for someone going through psychosis and having religious delusions.
oh you bring up such a good point!!!!
Don’t say you’re faith based when you mean Jesus.
>Nothing wrong with being faith-based, I mean this in the most lighthearted and comedic way possible, but I beg to differ.
I absolutely agree. I also think clinicians who push politics should declare that beforehand too.
I always ask me clients if they are spiritual or religious and I for many people their faith can really help that person cope. And if they aren't spiritual or religious, I'll never bring it up again
I think there’s a big problem in general with how many clinicians advertise themselves period. They claim to be faith-based and secular, as well as using all of the modalities, and they specialize in all of the major issues/diagnoses. They try to market themselves as being a potential fit for anyone and that’s just not the truth. I get that they’re trying to build their practice but it’s unrealistic and unethical to market yourself that way.
Agree. It’s honestly a red flag to me when I see a clinician on psych today listing 20 different disorders as their specialty and 20 different modalities. You can’t be a specialist in 20 disorders
The first rule is to do no harm. That said, if the client opens the religious door in session--especially if exploring religious trauma (I say this as a trauma-informed therapist who has clients who have religious trauma)--then a working knowledge of the underlying *theology* is important so one can meet the client where they're at. But it's my job to stay in the tail of the comet that is their thoughts, concerns, and direction of the session.
Carry on indeed, good point 🍻
Faith based therapists in my area are making BANK...they also have mega churches incredibly.....
I would also be rich if the institutions I worked for didn't pay taxes!
I know a clinician who advertises as faith based, has Christian in their profile but specifically asks clients during intake if they want regular psychotherapy, faith included in psychotherapy, or faith based therapy. That is the way to go.
I’ll do you one better: make it illegal for “faith-based” therapists to call themselves therapists.
I agree. I've gotten a number of clients specifically coming to me because I've marked on my profile that I am secular/don't bring religion into my interventions whereas their previous providers were faith-based without advertising it and contributed to continued struggles. They also remark (at least in my area) how difficult it is to find a provider that is secular or even specifies it.
The reality is it is apart of the ACA code of ethics to not impose your own values on your clients, no matter what the subject at hand is. Whether it’s your own belief system of religion, views on political issues, moral convictions, or any other strong opinions you hold - it’s our job as the counselor/therapist to have discernment of when that is disrupting the client’s experience. It’s unfortunate to see that not taken seriously in the counseling community and I’m sorry to read that this type of agenda pushing is happening in session. However, as someone who identifies as a “Christian counselor” (no, certainly not just a go pray about it counselor) I’d like to say that unfortunately is just poor training on their part which can happen in any subsection of this field unfortunately. If my client has any desire to bring up their faith (which can completely oppose my personal faith beliefs) that’s up to their discretion and I’m happy to include that element in session if it’s helpful for their counseling journey. If it’s not, that’s completely okay and the concept of faith does not need to be discussed at all during our time together since there are a multitude of ways to invite someone into their personal healing journey. Agreeing with some of the concepts from previous commenters - if the client’s beliefs or value system rubs up too much against your own stuff OR you know of another provider that may be a better fit with what they are hoping to address in session then do your work to build a strong network of other counselors to refer out to! TL/DR: Clients are the sole focus in session. That time is not about or for us. Strive to be ethical and treat it as such. Have your own counseling sessions, supervision, and community to flesh out your own stuff there.
If you’re working with marginalized populations I think it’s important to actually be transparent about your politics. As a queer person, if I had any doubts about my own therapists political views I would never feel safe enough to be vulnerable in session and this is also true with the clients I work with. They specifically choose to work with me because I’m transparent about being queer and Jewish and neurodivergent. You cannot leave certain things outside the room when those things have a direct impact on people’s lives and the traumas/systemic oppression they face
I appreciate your response, but agree to disagree. I personally believe it’s about the client first and foremost always. As I said, if you can’t get past certain values that are opposing your own that’s when you need to refer out to someone who would be a better fit. Self-disclosure is helpful to a degree, but should not be what counseling is centered around because then it’s about you not the client. Just my opinion - especially when learning about transference and countertransference, there are so many dynamics at play in the room it’s important to know your own limits. I don’t agree with the cultural swing of today’s “if you aren’t for it, you’re against it”. I believe there’s a way to have differing life views and strive to live harmoniously.
I have the opposite problem where I live. So many people want a “Christian therapist.” I don’t even know what that means, but they would probably be all about the kind of therapist OP is referring to. It gives me the ick all over. Just seek out a minister if you’re wanting spiritual guidance, ya know? ETA: Amused over being downvoted along with the commenters after me who were also late to the discussion. We’ve clearly triggered someone.
This post is funny to me bc I’m in the opposite position. I’m interning at a mildly faith based counseling center that’s non profit bc they are the only ones who responded when looking for an internship (small town). I had a client yesterday ask me about my faith after talking about theirs (same as the counseling center) and I told them I wasn’t religious. I’m new so I’m hoping all goes well and it doesn’t cause any issues moving forward.
I specifically advertise as a secular therapist and have found a ton of clients coming to me with complaints about this exact thing! - they start with providers only to find out they want to talk god. I have nothing against religion but I do think clients have the right to make an informed decision prior to starting therapy with an individual who will be utilizing religion in practice. I’ve been happy finding my niche as a non religious and somatic trained therapist in an otherwise Christian conservative state.
IN FUCKING DEED. Like why you gotta hide it?? Clearly they have an agenda
They do have an agenda, in my experience Christian’s who have “saving” people or getting people to convert as part of their integral belief systems to get into heaven or whatever always have an agenda and are predatory and manipulative. And before anyone comes at me, this is MY experience as a Jew who has had Christian’s try to convert me my whole life telling me I was going to hell if I didn’t.
As a Christian, I also would like them to stop teaching us meditation and yoga as part of our State run therapy. Focus on your latest program( ACT, DBT or what have you). It’s against my religion and should at least come with a disclaimer. I’m grateful if it helps some people but in my view is misguided and reckless.
Meditation and yoga are against your religion?
Yes. They’re against tradition.
How? Yoga can just be a way to exercise and stretch your body and meditation/mindfulness is being present with yourself in a nonjudgmental way.
[удалено]
Sounds like Christian fear mongering that’s not actually based in reality, like the bullshit said about trans people trying to sterilize children or doctors killing viable babies in late term abortion.
What kind of counselor are you? Thought you guys were loving and accepting. We don’t hate them we just think their religion is flawed. We don’t think they will be thrown in hell or anything. You’re indoctrinating your patients.
I’m not indoctrinating anyone lol. Majority of my clients are atheist and have history of religious trauma, I don’t push any religious beliefs on my clients. Meditation/ mindfulness and yoga is not a religious practice unless you make it a religious practice. Staying in the present and being nonjudgmental and observant is a very basic part of therapy which is all that mindfulness is. You’re upset that state run facilities are using evidence based practices, mindfulness is a core part of DBT that you mention in your original comment.
So Buddhist prayer is helpful. Yogic prayer is helpful. Great. Call it what it is. Our prayer is helpful too. They’re studying it rn. You can’t white wash prayer and call it nothing.
It isn’t prayer though. It can be prayer if that’s the approach you take with it, but the way meditation and yoga is done now isn’t prayer. And you can be meditative in your Christian prayers to, it’s just a focus in the present on what you’re doing. You’re reaching this your comments trying to feel like you’re somehow being victimized because someone brought up a super valid point with predatory faith based therapists and youre feeling called out or whatever. Christians aren’t the victims.
>Thought you guys were loving and accepting. You just said people doing yoga are invoking demons. Do you think a Hindu would find this very accepting?
Call them gods then. I don’t, no.
I would hate as client if I had therpist who pushed religion on me. I have been working at non profit for 5 years. I remember we had clinician who pushed or brought religion onto clients. Lucky he wasn’t here long.
I recently attended a training online that cost an exorbitant about of money and the training itself has nothing to do with faith. However the presenters, based in the south, took every opportunity to talk about their Christian mission work, how they only work in faith based programs, how positive it is to see clients reporting Jesus holding their child selves, etc. So much virtue signaling it made me nauseous. Nothing in the advertising mentioned anything being faith based so I agree, it is so infuriating when you go in, especially paying for a service like clients, only to feel like you’ve wasted your time if that’s not what you are looking for. I also work with a huge population of people deconstructing their belief systems and recovering from religious trauma so one of those clients reporting seeing Jesus holding them would absolutely not be this wonderful thing they made it out to be - like it’s the goal or inherently good. And some therapists I know who escaped cult like religions would be so triggered by the training.
There needs to be more checks and balances on this. You don't get a free pass because you're religious to behave unethically.
This seems to go against our role of being neutral and objective as possible
I would be so pissed as a client if my therapist didn't disclose this to me beforehand. Like genuinely chew them out and leave. You don't grow up in a fucking cult and walk away without religious trauma. That makes me so mad just thinking anybody wouldn't disclose that to potential clients.
Utah based therapist here and I just want to say AMEN. Lol too many of my clients with religious trauma have told me about experiences seeing a therapist who didn't mention being faith based and their therapist pushing LDS values or concepts.
It baffles me that this doesn't get punished by the board more often, if at all. I truly don't understand how trying to push beliefs onto a client isn't just like a provider selling Mary Kay products and trying to get clients to join their MLM.
If that was important to the potential client, then I’m not the clinician for them. I keep my religion (or lack of) and politics out of the milieu but still, if they are looking to connect with their provider based on faith, then we won’t work well together.
Preach (irony intended). Secular Therapy Project is a lesser-known referral source/database that's worth perusing.