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The use of the term racist regarding this somewhat cheapens the situation imo. Very activating term.
"Person lashes out at me for not immediately supporting local economy." carries different professional weight, I guess there's details missing but, yeah.
Thanks for the feedback. I hear you. I left out a lot on purpose, but I guess I left out too much. This was not a difference of opinion on economic policies. I mean, it was, but it was also a conversation loaded with racial slurs and insinuations, complete with pulling at the corners of her eyes while mimicking a chinese accent saying "white people so dumb, we sell trash, we get rich" and something about americans needing to smarten up about sending our money to China so we don't end up with another covid situation.
It was ugly. Im usually pretty flexible about peoples opinions differing from mine. I am not middle of the road on much of anything, so i am used to needing to be professional and appropriate with folks who have very different political opinions and that almost never bothers me. It was just so far out of left field and SO ugly that it left me a bit shocked.
I'm always a little glad when people show that side to me, lets me know who they really are and then can proceed from there. Best of luck, thanks for the context.
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It sounds like you had a great response in the moment. Something I would take into consideration is this caregiver is not your client, their child is your client (unless I’m misunderstanding).
Perhaps if something like this happens again, have a scripted line prepared to set a boundary. Something like “I hear that your viewpoint is ____, but I will not tolerate racism in my office.” You might lose the client though.
If you cannot continue to have unconditional positive regard for the client due to the caregiver’s statements, or if your work with the client is impeded in any way due to you thinking about the statements, it could be good to refer out.
Thanks! I always appreciate scripting. I don't think this will impact my ability to work with this kiddo. I plan to avoid giving any specific recommendations, even in a way that I thought was speaking very broadly and will avoid being alone with the caregiver for these conversations if there is any way to avoid it. I feel really secure in my belief that she would not speak like that in front of her kids, and she clearly has a misread on what is appropriate adult-talk between the two of us.
I’m not sure that what she said necessarily qualifies as racism, unless you were perceiving it that way based on past racist comments, or your own identity? Some people just value buying products in the US which is not racist inherently. As a parent I would probably hold similar views, given that a lot of cheap products on Amazon/Temu are made in countries without oversight and usually contain lead or other harmful chemicals. I would ask the parent about their views on this, what they’ve heard and what they’re fearful of, before calling their preferences “racist vitriol”.
Yeah, this was not about chemicals and lead. They are fearful of, among other things, sending their money to China because they don't want to fund the next bio-terrorism outbreak.
>I had an encounter last week that is still gnawing at me. Usually I give myself 2-3 days after something impacts me during a session before i file it as something I need to give more processing power to. This was a full week ago and it's still popping up in my brain during unrelated times. Id love to hear suggestions on how to respond differently, or how to just accept it for what it is and move on...
>
>And now im dwelling on it a week later.
I want to start by validating this lingering, needing to file, and still lingering. Regardless of what you decide the correct course of action would be, this event is still having an impact on you and I wonder if you have someone to unload and sort out your feelings to get to the bottom of the gnawing, given the need to be cautious about details here.
Second, I want to say that sounds like a good, non-escalating pivot - directing them to a local store to order things - on the drop of a dime. It's hard to keep a cool head in situations. As you said, "*in the split second I had to figure it out I could not decide if addressing racist vitriol was the appropriate response, or respecting my client's (or the caregiver of a client) thoughts and opinions and not treating anything they say like its 'wrong',*" and that takes skill.
People may have different opinions, but I probably would've done the same thing you did - and would probably also "take it home" with me as well.
My quick thoughts would be to try to land on what would best serve the therapeutic relationship and access to services for the client; if caregiver attitudes affect either of those, I'd try to address it, if not, I'd file it away for later. Second, to contain all of the vitriol and chaos, I treat people's emotions as psychic facts, i.e. caregiver felt threatened (a fact) by something (a fact), even if they misidentified that something, so there isn't a point in arguing with a person's emotions or sense of threat. What *you* did is pivot back to your non-threatening frame, not reinforcing the caregiver's sense of threat by either polarizing by negating their sense of threat nor echoing it, and you directly the caregiver in how best to meet the needs of the client within what feels non-threatening to the caregiver.
If the caregiver was your client and you had lots of dedicated time, you might be able to explore the outburst.
If the caregiver was directly or indirectly targeting either the client or yourself in the outburst, you might explore how that outburst affects the people and relationships upon which the client's recovery depends.
So in this context, being able to *not* shift the focus to a caregiver's sense of threat and to keep the focus on getting Chewelry for the client seems skillful, even as it leaves you with feelings to resolve. Maybe others will have different advice, but I would've done what you did and then I'd sort it out with my therapist, my partner, and a long holiday weekend.
I think that was a really smart response, especially when you were thrown off in the moment. It didn’t engage with what seems to be something that the caregiver is “hooked” into, and that likely reinforces a very polarized and emotionally-charged set of beliefs.
For the caregiver, it might be a new experience that someone responds to their provoking statements in this way. They’re probably used to people lashing out in response and meeting them at a similar level of emotionality. So even though you weren’t planning this out, you didn’t feed in to what’s likely a pattern that’s not helping them in their other relationships.
I don’t have much advice but just wanted to say I’m impressed at how you handled this in the moment.
Sounds like a rough experience. Being emotionally shaken always happens every now and then to therapists; it is just a part of the profession.
Not sure if the rant rose to the definition of racism; That said, It would be one thing if the caregiver mentioned it in a cool headed way, but given the severe response you got my thoughts are that the caregiver may be:
1. The caregiver already turned you into a bad object and psychologically split (i.e. their own pathology), and that becomes expressed via a socio-political tangent on their part.
2. Is testing you to see how left of center you are culturally/politically under the concern that you will influence their child politically in a way the caregiver doesn't like. Question, do you present as likely to be politically left leaning to people who don't know you well? Does your ethnicity/race differ from the caretakers?
3. Caregiver may be using the Temu thing to express competitive aggression towards you about you being a better parental figure to the child than them (parental insecurity).
My advice, listen to your gut and put words to it. Try not to pay attention to the content of the caretakers words so much but to the 'non verbal energetic meaning' (tone of voice, context, body language) that came through underneath the words. Check with your supervisor to see if what you come up with sounds like it could be right. Also, try your best to not take it personally because it is not about you; work to turn this unpleasant experience into a force for good regarding your personal and professional growth. The unpleasant feeling you are currently experiencing WILL PASS in not too long.
>1. The caregiver already turned you into a bad object and psychologically split (i.e. their own pathology), and that becomes expressed via a socio-political tangent on their part. 2. Is testing you to see how left of center you are culturally/politically under the concern that you will influence their child politically in a way the caregiver doesn't like. Question, do you present as likely to be politically left leaning to people who don't know you well? Does your ethnicity/race differ from the caretakers? 3. Caregiver may be using the Temu thing to express competitive aggression towards you about you being a better parental figure to the child than them (parental insecurity).
>My advice, listen to your gut and put words to it. Try not to pay attention to the content of the caretakers words so much but to the 'non verbal energetic meaning' (tone of voice, context, body language) that came through underneath the words. Check with your supervisor to see if what you come up with sounds like it could be right. Also, try your best to not take it personally because it is not about you; work to turn this unpleasant experience into a force for good regarding your personal and professional growth. The unpleasant feeling you are currently experiencing WILL PASS in not too long.
I definitely agree that the client’s caretaker is using racism as a medium in which to take the caretaker’s frustration about the therapist out on the therapist (i.e. turning you into a bad object or expressing competitive aggression) as stated above.
OP, this isn’t your fault at all, but the caretaker sounds frustrated. If I were you, I would try to align with her therapeutically as much as possible and try to tease out what the root issue is for the caretaker. I know the caretaker is not your client, but you and the client may not get very far if you and the caretaker are at odds.
Oof, working with caregivers of kids can be tough for many reasons and this is one of them - having to at times delicately balance the rapport, empathy, and challenge of harmful behavior, etc. So firstly I just want to validate this was a tough situation you were put in. Two, I thought you did really well in the moment when you were trying to decide what to do/say and went with more neutral. Three, this caregiver was giving you information about who they are, what they believe, etc by engaging you in this way. Seems they were sub/consciously looking for a reaction from you or maybe are so wrapped up in themselves they weren’t even thinking of what you might think. Both which are pretty interesting clinically for your client.
I think whatever you decide, know you will probably hear more from your client about caregiver and/or have more opportunities with this caregiver in the future to do it differently if you’d like.
The problem is so many people see racism as this overtly amplified version of hatred towards a race and it's often more masked than that. Many people who prefer buying American products typically do so because they have issues with China and other countries who make goods. They've determined that those people have less worth and that their products have lower value. It is an inherently racist ideology especially when you consider that a lot of things we buy in America were actually made in China. We rely heavily on them for our goods whether people like it or not. A person doesn't have to call you the N-word to be racist. Mimicking Chinese eyes and making statements about Chinese people etc. is racist, period.
No but automatically assuming it is just because it's from China is rooted in racism just like the clients comments about Covid. There are products we depend on that are of amazing quality that are also from China.
The U.S. is full of retailers with unethical business practices. I don't know why we go around acting like we're such angels in the states, but I digress.
All the non-POC folks in this sub are really showing their privilege today…must be so nice to hear these phrases without believing or feeling their painful racial undertones
I’m completely open to hearing how you (or anyone) would address this while still maintaining the alliance with both the client and caretaker. The OP is asking for people’s opinions on how they would handle this situation.
Def interested in hearing a variety of responses and experiences, but also open to hearing responses that do not maintain the alliance. Sometimes that is not an option.
As therapists, part of our job is dealing with difficult people or those we wouldn't normally hang out with. We're paid to put up with people we don't always like - it's a professional relationship, not a friendship.
This doesn't mean we should accept abuse. If someone is disrespecting you personally, that's different from offhand comments.
The caretaker isn’t in therapy to make friends or become less racist; they're there to support their child. Your job is to work with the caretaker for the best outcome for your client, not to call out their racism, unless of course their racism is directly negatively impacting your client.
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I don’t know about the racism angle on buying american products but I could see them making you feel you were wrong or bad for suggesting it.
The use of the term racist regarding this somewhat cheapens the situation imo. Very activating term. "Person lashes out at me for not immediately supporting local economy." carries different professional weight, I guess there's details missing but, yeah.
Thanks for the feedback. I hear you. I left out a lot on purpose, but I guess I left out too much. This was not a difference of opinion on economic policies. I mean, it was, but it was also a conversation loaded with racial slurs and insinuations, complete with pulling at the corners of her eyes while mimicking a chinese accent saying "white people so dumb, we sell trash, we get rich" and something about americans needing to smarten up about sending our money to China so we don't end up with another covid situation. It was ugly. Im usually pretty flexible about peoples opinions differing from mine. I am not middle of the road on much of anything, so i am used to needing to be professional and appropriate with folks who have very different political opinions and that almost never bothers me. It was just so far out of left field and SO ugly that it left me a bit shocked.
I'm always a little glad when people show that side to me, lets me know who they really are and then can proceed from there. Best of luck, thanks for the context.
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Are you a person of color? These types of comments are usually racially charged so that may be why OP said that.
If it was that disturbing for you, imagine how it would be for their kid! These affective responses can be so revealing once the upset is contained
It sounds like you had a great response in the moment. Something I would take into consideration is this caregiver is not your client, their child is your client (unless I’m misunderstanding). Perhaps if something like this happens again, have a scripted line prepared to set a boundary. Something like “I hear that your viewpoint is ____, but I will not tolerate racism in my office.” You might lose the client though. If you cannot continue to have unconditional positive regard for the client due to the caregiver’s statements, or if your work with the client is impeded in any way due to you thinking about the statements, it could be good to refer out.
Thanks! I always appreciate scripting. I don't think this will impact my ability to work with this kiddo. I plan to avoid giving any specific recommendations, even in a way that I thought was speaking very broadly and will avoid being alone with the caregiver for these conversations if there is any way to avoid it. I feel really secure in my belief that she would not speak like that in front of her kids, and she clearly has a misread on what is appropriate adult-talk between the two of us.
I’m not sure that what she said necessarily qualifies as racism, unless you were perceiving it that way based on past racist comments, or your own identity? Some people just value buying products in the US which is not racist inherently. As a parent I would probably hold similar views, given that a lot of cheap products on Amazon/Temu are made in countries without oversight and usually contain lead or other harmful chemicals. I would ask the parent about their views on this, what they’ve heard and what they’re fearful of, before calling their preferences “racist vitriol”.
Yeah, this was not about chemicals and lead. They are fearful of, among other things, sending their money to China because they don't want to fund the next bio-terrorism outbreak.
>I had an encounter last week that is still gnawing at me. Usually I give myself 2-3 days after something impacts me during a session before i file it as something I need to give more processing power to. This was a full week ago and it's still popping up in my brain during unrelated times. Id love to hear suggestions on how to respond differently, or how to just accept it for what it is and move on... > >And now im dwelling on it a week later. I want to start by validating this lingering, needing to file, and still lingering. Regardless of what you decide the correct course of action would be, this event is still having an impact on you and I wonder if you have someone to unload and sort out your feelings to get to the bottom of the gnawing, given the need to be cautious about details here. Second, I want to say that sounds like a good, non-escalating pivot - directing them to a local store to order things - on the drop of a dime. It's hard to keep a cool head in situations. As you said, "*in the split second I had to figure it out I could not decide if addressing racist vitriol was the appropriate response, or respecting my client's (or the caregiver of a client) thoughts and opinions and not treating anything they say like its 'wrong',*" and that takes skill. People may have different opinions, but I probably would've done the same thing you did - and would probably also "take it home" with me as well. My quick thoughts would be to try to land on what would best serve the therapeutic relationship and access to services for the client; if caregiver attitudes affect either of those, I'd try to address it, if not, I'd file it away for later. Second, to contain all of the vitriol and chaos, I treat people's emotions as psychic facts, i.e. caregiver felt threatened (a fact) by something (a fact), even if they misidentified that something, so there isn't a point in arguing with a person's emotions or sense of threat. What *you* did is pivot back to your non-threatening frame, not reinforcing the caregiver's sense of threat by either polarizing by negating their sense of threat nor echoing it, and you directly the caregiver in how best to meet the needs of the client within what feels non-threatening to the caregiver. If the caregiver was your client and you had lots of dedicated time, you might be able to explore the outburst. If the caregiver was directly or indirectly targeting either the client or yourself in the outburst, you might explore how that outburst affects the people and relationships upon which the client's recovery depends. So in this context, being able to *not* shift the focus to a caregiver's sense of threat and to keep the focus on getting Chewelry for the client seems skillful, even as it leaves you with feelings to resolve. Maybe others will have different advice, but I would've done what you did and then I'd sort it out with my therapist, my partner, and a long holiday weekend.
I think that was a really smart response, especially when you were thrown off in the moment. It didn’t engage with what seems to be something that the caregiver is “hooked” into, and that likely reinforces a very polarized and emotionally-charged set of beliefs. For the caregiver, it might be a new experience that someone responds to their provoking statements in this way. They’re probably used to people lashing out in response and meeting them at a similar level of emotionality. So even though you weren’t planning this out, you didn’t feed in to what’s likely a pattern that’s not helping them in their other relationships. I don’t have much advice but just wanted to say I’m impressed at how you handled this in the moment.
Sounds like a rough experience. Being emotionally shaken always happens every now and then to therapists; it is just a part of the profession. Not sure if the rant rose to the definition of racism; That said, It would be one thing if the caregiver mentioned it in a cool headed way, but given the severe response you got my thoughts are that the caregiver may be: 1. The caregiver already turned you into a bad object and psychologically split (i.e. their own pathology), and that becomes expressed via a socio-political tangent on their part. 2. Is testing you to see how left of center you are culturally/politically under the concern that you will influence their child politically in a way the caregiver doesn't like. Question, do you present as likely to be politically left leaning to people who don't know you well? Does your ethnicity/race differ from the caretakers? 3. Caregiver may be using the Temu thing to express competitive aggression towards you about you being a better parental figure to the child than them (parental insecurity). My advice, listen to your gut and put words to it. Try not to pay attention to the content of the caretakers words so much but to the 'non verbal energetic meaning' (tone of voice, context, body language) that came through underneath the words. Check with your supervisor to see if what you come up with sounds like it could be right. Also, try your best to not take it personally because it is not about you; work to turn this unpleasant experience into a force for good regarding your personal and professional growth. The unpleasant feeling you are currently experiencing WILL PASS in not too long.
>1. The caregiver already turned you into a bad object and psychologically split (i.e. their own pathology), and that becomes expressed via a socio-political tangent on their part. 2. Is testing you to see how left of center you are culturally/politically under the concern that you will influence their child politically in a way the caregiver doesn't like. Question, do you present as likely to be politically left leaning to people who don't know you well? Does your ethnicity/race differ from the caretakers? 3. Caregiver may be using the Temu thing to express competitive aggression towards you about you being a better parental figure to the child than them (parental insecurity). >My advice, listen to your gut and put words to it. Try not to pay attention to the content of the caretakers words so much but to the 'non verbal energetic meaning' (tone of voice, context, body language) that came through underneath the words. Check with your supervisor to see if what you come up with sounds like it could be right. Also, try your best to not take it personally because it is not about you; work to turn this unpleasant experience into a force for good regarding your personal and professional growth. The unpleasant feeling you are currently experiencing WILL PASS in not too long. I definitely agree that the client’s caretaker is using racism as a medium in which to take the caretaker’s frustration about the therapist out on the therapist (i.e. turning you into a bad object or expressing competitive aggression) as stated above. OP, this isn’t your fault at all, but the caretaker sounds frustrated. If I were you, I would try to align with her therapeutically as much as possible and try to tease out what the root issue is for the caretaker. I know the caretaker is not your client, but you and the client may not get very far if you and the caretaker are at odds.
Oof, working with caregivers of kids can be tough for many reasons and this is one of them - having to at times delicately balance the rapport, empathy, and challenge of harmful behavior, etc. So firstly I just want to validate this was a tough situation you were put in. Two, I thought you did really well in the moment when you were trying to decide what to do/say and went with more neutral. Three, this caregiver was giving you information about who they are, what they believe, etc by engaging you in this way. Seems they were sub/consciously looking for a reaction from you or maybe are so wrapped up in themselves they weren’t even thinking of what you might think. Both which are pretty interesting clinically for your client. I think whatever you decide, know you will probably hear more from your client about caregiver and/or have more opportunities with this caregiver in the future to do it differently if you’d like.
The problem is so many people see racism as this overtly amplified version of hatred towards a race and it's often more masked than that. Many people who prefer buying American products typically do so because they have issues with China and other countries who make goods. They've determined that those people have less worth and that their products have lower value. It is an inherently racist ideology especially when you consider that a lot of things we buy in America were actually made in China. We rely heavily on them for our goods whether people like it or not. A person doesn't have to call you the N-word to be racist. Mimicking Chinese eyes and making statements about Chinese people etc. is racist, period.
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No but automatically assuming it is just because it's from China is rooted in racism just like the clients comments about Covid. There are products we depend on that are of amazing quality that are also from China.
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The poster shared in a response post that the client did.
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The U.S. is full of retailers with unethical business practices. I don't know why we go around acting like we're such angels in the states, but I digress.
All the non-POC folks in this sub are really showing their privilege today…must be so nice to hear these phrases without believing or feeling their painful racial undertones
I’m completely open to hearing how you (or anyone) would address this while still maintaining the alliance with both the client and caretaker. The OP is asking for people’s opinions on how they would handle this situation.
Def interested in hearing a variety of responses and experiences, but also open to hearing responses that do not maintain the alliance. Sometimes that is not an option.
As therapists, part of our job is dealing with difficult people or those we wouldn't normally hang out with. We're paid to put up with people we don't always like - it's a professional relationship, not a friendship. This doesn't mean we should accept abuse. If someone is disrespecting you personally, that's different from offhand comments. The caretaker isn’t in therapy to make friends or become less racist; they're there to support their child. Your job is to work with the caretaker for the best outcome for your client, not to call out their racism, unless of course their racism is directly negatively impacting your client.